Kisiah Timmons, Yahoo, Principal Technical Program Manager

Kisiah talks about going blind right after finishing college and the significant challenges of gaining employment at that time. She describes her work to improve support for assistive technologies in a variety mobile devices, tablets, and the associated apps.  

Mentioned in this episode:

Info about Accessibility at Blink

(suspenseful music)

- Hello.

This is Digital Accessibility,

the people behind the progress.

I'm Joe Welinske, the creator and host of this series,

and as an accessibility professional myself,

I find it very interesting

as to how others have found their way into this profession.

So let's meet one of those people right now

And hear about their journey.

All right, well we're ready to go with this interview today.

I'm pleased to have with me to Kisiah Timmons.

Hello Kisiah, how are you today?

- I'm doing well.

- I'm glad to have you as part of this podcast, video cast,

where are you talking to us from today?

- The Washington DC area.

All right, well, I'm three hours time zone difference

in the Seattle area on my home office in Vashon Island.

Well, I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me

and talk about your experiences in accessibility.

You know, why don't we start by just talking about

a little bit about

what you're involved with right now.

- Currently I'm a principal technical program manager

with Yahoo.

My main priority is to manage

different engineering projects,

focusing on those products that are consumer facing

and that we're shipping releasing you know, out the door.

However, as a part of my current position as a TPM,

I also manage a Yahoo's company-wide

accessibility remediation program.

- Yeah, and that was how I think I you know,

first became familiar with your work.

And so this conversation series is all about helping people

see how others have found their way

into supporting accessibility.

So why don't we just go back in time and maybe

you could kind of give us a little background of

you know, how accessibility came into your life.

Then we can just kind of move back up until today.

- Sure thing.

That's the neat thing about the accessibility field

is that everyone has a different story to tell.

And my story is that I basically came

into accessibility the hard way.

I lost the majority of my vision within two years

of graduating with an engineering degree.

I was working in the consulting field at the time

for a multinational consulting firm

you know, experienced vision loss,

and then all of a sudden my world ended.

I was told that no one would hire a blind engineer,

and I ended up losing my job.

I worked, went through all the processes with

you know, state department of labor,

vocational rehabilitation.

Fortunately, I had a got sent in a counselor

who believed that I was better than my circumstance.

He believed in me.

And he gave me every tool, every opportunity,

every training that, you know, he could afford

with his state budget to get me back on track,

give me all this technologies that I need.

Because at the time you know,

it was kind of rare for someone you know,

at my stature having work as an engineer, losing their job,

you know, and so he really saw the daylight.

He saw the daylight before I did.

And there were supporting people around him that kept

messaging me and telling me

even though I lost that position,

even though you know, some people said

that I would never have gainful employment again,

that those same engineering skills that I developed

over the course of many years, even pre-dating college,

it's still very useful in you know,

regaining my career because as an engineer,

we're taught to solve problems.

And so for me,

I had to shift my thinking a bit,

and thinking of it as an engineering problem

that needed to be solved.

So I mastered my assistive technologies

and within you know, two years of that

you know, I ended up going back to work, was hired,

doing the same type of engineering assistance analyst work

for another multinational consulting firm.

And at that point it was very interesting

because their systems were more complex

than at the consulting firm where I was laid off from.

And they told me that could do the work.

The difference this time is that I've developed

you know, a core skillset with my assistant technologies.

I had it mastered where I became you know,

my own tech support.

Whereas before I was relying on you know,

state technologists and you know, company IT personnel.

I kept my mouth shut because I was determined.

I said I'm not gonna lose another job.

So there were barriers that I faced software wise,

but you know, I created scripts in myself,

You know, I'm a big fan of JAWS

and that's what I used at the time.

I created my own scripts to help fix accessibility issues

that I encountered.

Didn't tell my manager, didn't tell anyone,

I just did it because I needed to get the job done.

And I was determined not to lose another job.

So that was kind of like my entry point

in to accessibility is that I came in it the hard way.

And I came in at a time

when there really was no accessibility.

I mean this was 20 years ago,

no accessibility field.

The only person I had to rely on really was myself.

And you know, some people you know,

that I've met along the way during VocRehab

that told me that I was better than my circumstance.

- Well, I mean it's really great to hear your story,

starting with such a you know, a scary health pivot

in your life early on

as you're just ready to begin your career,

and then the challenges that were,

that were there with technology,

and just people's understanding of all of our abilities,

you know, despite physical challenges.

So it's really exciting to you know,

see how things have gone for you over the years.

You did mention a assistive technologies

you know, a number of times,

and I think a lot of people

are just exploring accessibility,

you know, may not understand how important it is

to be able to, for our digital products and services,

to be able to fully support those assistive devices.

And it sounds like you had a lot of that hard work early on

when it wasn't built in,

but how have you seen things improve in that area

over the past 20 years?

- Oh, wow.

It's been a dramatic shift in syncing,

because at that time, no one you know,

in corporate America specifically,

no one really knew what assistive technology was,

no one really had experience

dealing with people with disabilities.

And then if they did,

there were times you know, that they took away negativity.

And that was the first case that played a huge role

when I lost my job with my initial vision loss

was because you know, I remember someone saying

well, you know, don't you need one of those loud, noisy,

you know, braille printers

that's gonna take up too much office space.

And you know, they're just trying

to draw on every negative experience, right.

But in my mastering assistant technologies

and the availability of them over time,

and even you know, becoming mainstream

has really helped change the perceptions.

For example, you know, I can remember going to a conference

in the early 2000s, down at Georgia Tech,

and you know, wearable computing was something

that was you know, developed for people

with physical disabilities, right.

Now you have all types of fitness watches.

Right, you know, and they're accessible, right?

So allow the technology speech recognitions.

You know, you think about what Amazon has done

with echo and Alexa, right?

You know, the initial influences on those sorts of products,

you know, it was because of people

with disabilities had hardships,

but now they're becoming more mainstream.

I remember when Windows PCs

did not come with a built-in screen reader.

Now we have Narrator.

And I think, you know,

the key with assisted technologies,

number one is that they've gotten more affordable,

because when I first lost my vision,

everything had to be paid you know, by your counselor,

by your VocRehab.

It was extremely expensive.

Right, you know, to start off you know,

getting you know, different types

of assistance technologies.

Braille displays were just you know,

they were super expensive now,

they're still expensive now,

but they've come down, you know, dramatically.

So over time,

the good thing about assistance technologies

as they've been, become embraced by mainstream society,

you know, we have economies of scale

and prices have come down to make it more affordable,

meaning that it's easily accessible to people

to help bridge you know, that quality of life, right.

To help make sure that we have an equal quality of life

for people with disabilities and people without.

- Well, what you've talked about so far

is just just your own need

to be able to overcome physical challenges,

to participate as an engineer in the corporate workplace.

And with a lot of hard work, you're able to do that,

but then you took the next step,

which is to become actively involved as a practitioner

to improve the accessibility space.

So what was the next step?

How did you move into becoming actively involved

in improving accessibility?

- That's a good question.

So working in a consulting realm,

you know, I was involved in accessibility

on the behalf of myself,

and back in like the mid 2000s

you know, it was at the height of the Iraq war,

and I had the opportunity to join

the department of veterans affairs in Atlanta.

And the focus there was trying to help rehabilitate

blind and aging veterans.

At that time, you know, it was one of those things.

It was kind of a crossroads for me.

And always fortunate to have people in my life

that have you know, advised me over time.

And the notion was you know,

Kisiah it's time for you to come use your skills

for the benefit of others.

Hey, it's good.

You've got it nailed for yourself, right?

You're taking care of yourself,

but the same type of skills that you used to overcome,

the same type of skills you used

to succeed in the workplace,

those are the same skills that are needed

to help better the lives of others.

And at that time, that was an important thing for me.

I have to tell you, it wasn't you know,

leaving that job at the consulting firm,

that was the most difficult job to leave.

Because there, you know, I was one person,

one blind person with a white cane coming into work,

taking two trains, get on the show to get there.

I never knew the effect that I had

on people who just saw me around the office

until they found that I was leaving.

And that was the biggest lesson learned for me

was that they noticed me when you know,

I really didn't see them looking, right.

I didn't, but that experience, it was tough.

I liked what I was doing,

it was challenging,

and I had a good rapport with my colleagues,

and you know, people across the company

who value what I did

because I was able to help people internally

advocate for their accommodations.

So it was very gratifying,

but at the same time you know,

I'm just still an engineer at the core, right.

And being able to look at other types of technology

like emerging technologies, innovations, things like that,

indoor way finding systems, smartphones,

it really, really piqued my interest.

And so ultimately I ended up leaving

and joining the department of veterans affairs

as a biomedical engineer in a research capacity.

So helping to create and develop different prototypes

to help support the needs of aging veterans,

and those who were experiencing vision loss.

- And then just from you know, what I know

from your background, from your profile you know,

then that led you into even further work,

developing solutions for digital products and services

that others that others are using.

So maybe tell me a little bit about that next chapter

in your journey.

- Yeah, so when I was at the VA,

I really started to get very enthused about smartphones,

computing devices, mobile computing devices, okay.

And these, because I thought they were just super neat.

They're incredible, but I couldn't use them.

I could not use right, the iPhone when it originally came,

because it did not have the accessibility suite.

Right.

At that time I was using like one of the you know,

it was like a Motorola phone.

It was a windows based operating system.

And you know, I had the buy Mobile Speak

to add on to that, right.

Just to be able to use you know, a phone.

But there it was, I had a really incredible opportunity.

It was a kind of a passion of mine.

I wrote the proposal for it,

pitched it to my team, they bought in,

because I wanted the VA to fund a study on smartphones.

Because I'm thinking like this is the way of the future.

Like if we can get these smartphones into veteran's hands,

you know, they'll just open up a whole world for them.

And then especially if we can you know,

advocate for making them more accessible.

Fortunately, you know, the VA,

they bought into it and they gave us a huge grant.

And there, I mean, that was something

that was very transformative for me.

That's when my passion for smartphones and tablets,

mobile computing devices, that's when it really took off.

Right, because you know, before then,

you know, everything was what you call adaptive, right.

Adaptive, meaning they put a product out there, right.

And then they thought about

well, you know, now we'll slap something on top of it,

then make it accessible to people with disabilities.

Well, that's you know, nowadays

we're talking assistance, right.

We're talking product inclusion.

Where now, you know, companies, product teams

are thinking about those things

when they release the initial product,

and that's made a world of experience.

So just within the past, I would say 10-15 years,

it's been incredible,

but it was my work at the VA

that really just kind of made me more passionate

about mobile computing devices, smartphones,

and the apps that drive them.

Because for me, that was,

I saw that as the key of my mobility,

and to greater independence.

- If you're able to talk about it,

what were some of the things that you felt

were important areas that you moved forward in

as you started working with mobile devices,

and making that more accessible.

- It, had to do,

and I'm grateful for Apple

because they set this incredible standard.

I can't remember which version of the iPhone

first had voiceover,

but that was just an incredible milestone.

Because that, when that happened,

you know, that drove market pressure.

It wasn't overnight.

Right, but other phone manufacturers,

they started to take stock into it.

So very early in the game, you know,

especially for people with vision loss, you know,

you couldn't go wrong with an Apple product.

Right, and that's you know, to this day, I love my iPhone.

You know what I mean?

You know, because for people with disabilities,

like if you get to us first,

like we have incredible brand loyalty, right.

They were the first that opened that door.

And so my biggest issue was that at the time,

and this was you know, 2010, 2011,

somewhere around there.

At the same time, I said

well, you know, yes, it's great, right,

that we ourselves, you know, have this phone, right.

But at the same time as a consumer,

I don't want to be held to one model.

Right, I should have options to choose

like anyone else, right.

I should have other options out there.

And so I was really glad, you know,

that Google stepped up with Android,

and started to make Android,

an accessibility suite for Android to make those phones,

Android based devices accessible,

included an accessibility suite there.

And that opened up a lot of doors.

So for me, I really got involved in those,

in like the mobile computing devices

to the point where I own both.

I own iOS devices, I own Android devices.

I like the compare and contrast.

I like you know, different things that I could do

with some you know, Android devices

that I couldn't do with an Apple one.

I could tinker around more with the Android device.

So, I mean, so it's just,

it was something that was incredible,

but it was a huge milestone starting off with Apple.

And then we started to have other companies

start to adopt the accessibility suite.

It was very important you know,

because therein lies that equal access to technology.

You know, especially because you know, with given choice,

you have different price points.

At that time, you know, Apple didn't have

a lower cost model.

Android provided those options.

So worldwide, you have more people you know,

who could probably afford the Android system

if it was accessible than Apple.

So it's just one of those things

that looking at it in hindsight,

the market adopted the change,

and they adopted to change

because they started to value people with disabilities.

It's not all about you know,

legislation and laws and lawsuits.

Yeah, that played a role into it too.

But once companies and company executives

start to understand and really realize

that if you build an accessible and usable product

for all people, it's good for the business.

It's good for the brand, right.

It's good for the consumer.

And it ends up improving usability for all people, right?

For people that don't even think of themselves

as having a disability, namely aging seniors, right.

They experience vision loss due to just natural changes

in age, right, with age.

They don't consider themselves, right,

someone with a disability,

but they rely on those technologies as well.

So it's been a great journey,

not to say that everything is perfect,

but just within the past 20 years,

since I first lost my vision,

the accessibility field has grown by leaps and bounds.

And it was because of those,

and I really believe it's because of those,

of companies starting to make their products,

accessible products more mainstream.

Where that accessibility feel really starting

to take off and say, you know what,

if we're gonna focus on being inclusive and fully inclusive

to our digital products,

we need to get the experts in here to help us along the way,

not slapping another software on top of it,

when it's already out the door.

We need to appreciate and implement the inclusive approach

to product development.

And that's where accessibility professionals

really fit in.

- Well, I know you're moving into some new challenges

in your work life,

but also you're a certified professional through the IAAP.

So I always like to call that out too,

as a you know, as a way for people to get

just a little bit more involved in that becomes emblematic

of a commitment,

but as you move forward in your next part of your career,

what are some of the things that you're hoping to see

as developments in accessibility?

- Well, hmm, that's a good question.

I think we still need to be vigilant.

Technology is a great thing.

It improves my independence, my quality of life,

but at the same time, you know, it takes off

at such a rapid speed

that the accessibility portion of it,

sometimes you end up playing catch up.

So there are technologies out there right now,

AR, XR, you know, AI where, you know,

we have think tanks, we have different groups

are you know, trying to make best practices and standards

on these things.

But it's important for us to you know,

to continue to pursue those companies

on their putting out those products, right?

Because of the fact that we don't want to get to a point

where we're lagging behind significantly,

because when we lag behind,

as people with disabilities significantly,

when it comes to new technologies,

there is that the digital divide, right.

That term, you don't really use it anymore because,

you know, back in the day,

digital divide had a lot to do with, you know,

poverty and that sort of thing.

But it has huge implications for people with disabilities.

The digital divide you know, is when there's an inequity,

when you have some group of people

that can use a certain technology

and others that are hard, right.

So I think that's the challenge there

is that we have to keep striving

to catch up on with emerging technologies.

The other thing that I'm super passionate about,

and I don't think we've made as great a stride

as I would have liked,

is you know, accessibility with respect to higher education.

So I got an MBA back in 2014 and you know,

my school, Drexel University, they were just supportive.

I got all of my books done you know,

converted electronically.

You know, my program director worked with my professors

a quarter ahead to make sure she had all the textbooks.

She had time to get them sent off,

and you know, convert it to electronic format

so that I could use them.

I thought that my experience was like everyone else's

until I started meeting others at conferences,

and you know, people that had

drastically different experiences than I did.

And therein lies like you know,

we've got to get better around that.

Because the disparity amongst people with disabilities

and gainful employment is extreme.

And it's only gonna get worse with technologies

you know, moving as fast of a pace as they are.

It's up to higher, you know, higher ed institutions.

They've got to get it together,

because it still amazes me the number of young people

that I hear that have been told what they cannot be.

And we have to stop that.

Or their counselor are not being supportive.

Like we have to stop that.

Or the stories about

hey a kid can't get their accommodations

you know, on campus.

I'm like you've got to stop that.

Right.

And so that for me is an area where

I don't think it's as much progress has been me

as it should be.

You know, people with disabilities cannot sustain

and have a great quality of life, right,

if they cannot be educated,

if we can't enjoy education like everyone else.

That, to me, that's a right.

That's a fundamental right.

If a kid with a disability wants to go to college

and wants to become a programmer,

they need to be supported.

Right.

Don't look at that kid and say well, you know,

a lot of these students fail.

Well, look at the reasons why they fail.

The failure is not the kids.

The failure, right, are on the counselors.

The failures, right, are on the department

of rehab services on the campus.

That's where the failures are.

The failures are with the professors, not the students.

The students have no idea what course work

is coming down the pipeline,

or what types of labs are gonna,

they don't know, right.

That's when you have counselors,

you have people there that's supposed to guide them.

And that's, and I think that that is a fundamental challenge

that we're gonna have to grapple with

as an accessibility industry.

So yeah, number one,

you know, we have to keep on top

and stay vigilant about emerging technologies,

but we also cannot forget,

like if we want to bridge the economic gap,

if we want to increase the number of people

with disabilities with gainful employment,

we need to support them educationally.

- Well, I think that's a great place for us to end this

with those thoughtful comments about the challenges

that you remain in front of us.

And I think those are the two areas that you mentioned

are definitely ones that you know,

I'm gonna continue to think about.

And you know, I'm sure those of us

in the accessibility practice community

will take it on as a challenge as well.

But I want to thank you Kisiah for sharing your story

and telling us about your journey,

and hopefully you'll have great success

in the next things that you're involved with.

- Thank you so very much for your time.

It's been wonderful talking with you.

- Thanks a lot.