In this episode, we take a deep dive into the value of community with a leader who is on a mission to bring together courageous women in customer experience from across the globe. Clare Muscutt is the founder and CEO of Women in CX, a growing community spanned over 20+ countries that focus on providing a platform for women in the customer experience discipline to build deep connections and friendships, share ideas and collaborate. 

[01:44] Clare’s Journey – We start the conversation with a brief look at Clare’s career journey and how customer experience became her area of focus.

[06:30] Moving on from the Corporate World – Clare shares with us what inspired her to leave the corporate environment and start her own practice and some of the challenges that came with it.

[10:16] Effects of the Pandemic – Clare shares her thoughts on how the pandemic and its ripple effects have shaped the customer experience arena.

[15:14] Community – The events that led to the beginning of Women in CX, the purpose behind it, and how the community grew into its current level.

[25:45] Advice for Growth – Clare shares four key pieces of advice for those who aspire to grow their profession to the next level.

[31:00] Power of Mentoring – How being engaged in mentoring with people from different backgrounds can be beneficial to mentees and mentors alike.

Resources

Connect with Clare:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/clare-muscutt

Website: womenincx.community

Podcast: https://youtube.com/c/WomeninCX

Welcome to be customer lad, where we'll explore how leading experts in customer and employee experience are navigating organizations through their own journey to be customer led and the accidents and behaviors of lawyers and businesses exhibit to get there. And now your host of Bill's staikos.

I feel like this has been a long time coming, but she's so busy doing such amazing things for our community. Finally, I'm going to show Claire, welcome to be customer led. I'm super excited to have you here.

[00:01:08] Bill Staikos: Well, hopefully I'll get, the wife will publish this to, to, to, to YouTube at some point as well. So you have a really incredible. Story Claire leaving. Sainsbury's starting your own practice. The pandemic hits massive pivot from there for everybody, but you really nailed it. And now you've started a woman in CX.

So just take us through the journey. We're going to get into all of those things as well, but, but just, just for our audience, for the, 0.0, 1% of the population in customer experience, there probably hasn't doesn't know you are just like, just tell us a little bit about your journey and why you're doing.

oh God, where, where would you like me to start? So,

[00:01:52] Clare Muscutt: to again, with, I kind of fell into it. I think like so many people and especially the women that I speak to, on a day to day a week.

So we faces in the community. My career originated in operation. So I started on the front line in hospitality as a waitress work my way up through management. So by the time I graduated college or universities, it's called here. I was invited onto the company I was working for as graduate scheme and they gave me my own hotel and restaurant as a general manager at 23 years of age, which is young.

and I realized like so early on, I'm like having had my own P and L the thing that excited me the most. All the people aspects of it. So employees and customers. And so when I had the opportunity to head into the office, I knew which way I wanted to go. It wasn't called customer experience at the time, but it was into the department that took care of quality for customers and later employees.

[00:02:48] Bill Staikos: Very cool. and I love that you started on the CR I mean, essentially in the ground floor, working yourself up and being so close to customers give, probably has given you an incredible appreciation for the work you do today in your own business, but I'm always curious, like you had, you were working at Sainsbury's, you had success, you were building a platform there.

I'm always interested why, and personally, I don't have the guts to do this, but I'm always curious. And for the people that do have the guts to do with like, I'm fascinated by your decision to leave and, and motivation and inspiration to go do something on your own. So like, what was that inspiration and what was the hardest part about maybe starting up your own practice?

I guess there were a couple of things going on. So at the time the company I've working for was working well, he wasn't really ready for the ambition that I had. So for me, it was about how do we enjoy. On and offline together and bring a customer experience function together that effectively drove and delivered the future of customer experience and the stakeholders I was working with.

They were like, we're going to get there. We're going to get there. We're going to get there, but we don't know. So for me, I was kind of like frustrated. I wasn't sure how long it was going to take. It could be years to get to that point. So I was already feeling like, I'm not sure if this is what I want to be doing anymore here.

I wanted to, kind of carry on expanding the customer experience empire, so to speak. But at the same time, my speaking career had started to take. So during the same year, I'd been flown out to Australia business class as the keynote speaker for the marketing summit in Sydney. And, I've been flown out for a second time in the summer to New Zealand to do some consulting and keynote speaking.

And during that time I discovered. And you can see the sign behind me says she loves adventure. I never done anything like that. So I was, the first time of my life, solo traveling and discovering all these new places I took unpaid leave. when I went to New Zealand and traveled in Japan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Indonesia, and something within me just woke up.

That was like, there is so much more out there than. The conditions, career journey that I'd been led to believe was what women in power looked like. So it had to be a job title zeros on your paycheck, people working for you. That's what I'd been led to believe. And I discovered actually freedom is real power.

So I had this epiphany on a beach in Bali watching the sun go down before I was due to go back and, and it clicked in my mind actually. What do I really want? I'd love to be a digital nomad. I'd love to carry on traveling the world and no way working for a company at the time without, really could have worked remotely back then.

It was no way it was going to happen that way. So the only way it was going to be possible was for me to go out alone and also then kind of countering into that decision of how long would I have to wait to really do the job that I want to with this business. Was actually, there were so many of the businesses out there that are already, that would benefit from this model and approach that I've developed during my 15 years in corporate.

So I just thought, okay, I'm going to check. I'm going to chance it. I'm going to leave the comfort and go after what I already want.

Like what, what did you struggle with most earlier, early on?

not really knowing where to start in setting up a business. I'd never done. For myself anymore. and, and being flipped, the honest, the fear that I might not be able to make it work. So most of what I went through in the early days was Fe battling my own demons than it was anything practical.

Well, good for you for having the courage to be able to get through that.

I'd never met him before. He made time to have a coffee with me and spilled the secret. So if you know, this is how you get started to raise your profile and stuff. I know

Right. And I think that's one of the things that I'm always grateful for every day is that if you picked up the phone so to speak or schedule the zoom, whatever you want to call it and said, Hey, I need. Every person in customer experience is saying, okay, let's let me clear my diary. Let me help you. Right.

Which is really, you don't find that in almost any other type of role, frankly, which is we're all lucky for. So you started your business four years ago, pandemic. Everyone goes kind of batty and kind of crazy. And the world kind of gets thrown upside down business, had to stop, I'm assuming. Or were you continuing to work well through it?

And because you did pivot a little bit, right? Can I give him like you weren't flying around and doing all this.

and I just written a book that I had a speaking tour booked, literally touching every continent and overnight when the fundament hit it all disappeared. My existing clients that I had in the UK, put everything on hold, not wanting to continue to spend budget while they were figuring out what was going on.

So yeah, it was, it was the toughest time of my life, for sure,

[00:10:11] Clare Muscutt: So, so I think if we think about the customer experience first, has it made that better or worse? I can think of kind of like three reasons why it's better. So first it accelerated everybody's roadmaps around digital. So being able to provide channels and online experiences that perhaps from businesses.

In the past. Secondly, the working from home thing for, from an employee experience, point of view, that being a lasting change, being a good thing. And the third thing, being that a lot of customer experience professionals, more businesses, more broadly. Really hard to innovate around customer needs at the time.

So being more responsive and proactive, but two of those things I think are also negative at the same time. So all these digital channels that emerged, but don't actually work for customers particularly well. And working from home practices, especially in contact center, that actually are worse for employees too.

So for me, it's like the capability is now there to do some incredible things with customer experience. But the way that they happened at such a pace without really designing it based on the needs of the customer and the employee has resulted in some Pressy orphan experiences. And even to this day, operationally, they can see the cost saving of taking offices away and turning on digital channels that remove contact altogether.

But the knock on impacts of that is actually not been able to do. I guess real customer point of view, speak to someone that you, when you need to, you can't actually, self-serve they sensor I'm having the same problem all the time. I'm still bumping into IVR ads that say due to really high call volume.

So, so yeah, so there's the government services, a lot of banks, like from even just the customer perspective as myself, I think it's got worse. but then in terms of the profession, I think it's left a lot of us really exposed. So the discipline itself, hadn't got to the point where it could understand technology and user experience and digital as potentially the thing that was going to be driving experiences.

Plus the lack of power that we all have in customer experience. you're never in charge. You never get to make the decisions. This the skill set of influence and kind of internal entrepreneurship. And I suppose that kind of resilience and hustle, isn't something, I guess, many customer experience professionals are given support and tools and training around it's more frameworks and strategies for.

people in process. So, so I think what's happened is like the world has shifted the channels and customer experience, touch points have shifted. And actually as a, as a discipline, perhaps we're not so well prepared to deal with that. Hence why technology is now driving experience because it budgets and power and resource has been kind of plumbed into digital transformation without customer experience and employee experience been at the heart of that,

That has been accumulated over the last 18 months because of this rush to digital is just astounding to me sometimes. And I agree with you, I, in the rush to get something in place of a physical in store experience, so many companies just kind of slap something up there to get it up there and didn't do it in a way that, was from just from a, a human centric perspective.

I realized the need for that, but also. How do you then say, here's my MVP and start to iterate as you get feedback. I feel like feedback from customers on some level also went by the wayside for some companies. others really leaned in heavily, obviously. but in different ways, right? it wasn't so much, what's your feedback on digital?

It's. Yeah. How are you feeling? Right? Which is good. You want, you want to understand that from your customers, but,I feel like a pivoted for a little bit. I'm seeing it come back, which is really good. So hopefully the digital experience has start to catch up with where consumers want them to be. Was was that part of your Genesis sort of like the, the softer skill stuff that a lot of customer and employee experience practitioners may not be as advanced in?

Was that one of the motivations cause you started and I want to talk about the women in CX community. Was that one of your bigger motivations or like, what was the Genesis behind starting in the community? And I want to talk about like, where are you now? And like, where do you want to take it to cause this.

This is really spot. I can't tell you how special this is. Like how, how strongly I feel about the importance of what you're doing. I can't say in strong enough words. So well, so thank you one for doing that and starting the community, but let's, let's dig in now and like, what are you doing? What are you up to?

Why did you start it? And then what do you have to do? Yeah.

the need for human connection myself. So. women in sex really began as me reaching out to women that I'd met on social media. And we'd like, and comment on each of the staff and saying, Hey, do you fancy getting on that new fangled zoom thing and hanging out Thursday, like as if there was a world with before them?

And the podcast started so inspiring women in CX and because I had nothing else to do, I didn't have any work on, I just plugged myself like plow, plowed into. Trying to create this platform for women to share their stories. And religiously week after week after week published an episode. I, and it was a bit of a serendipitous look really that we were able to take the next stage because a guy called Jonathan Scheuer who runs a company called a fisherman labs in the states had listened to the podcast.

He was from a family with like, I think he has seven sisters and he lived what he had. And being a philanthropist working instead of Silicon valley, he said, if I gave you some money, Claire, what would you do with it? And I said, Jonathan, I would start a community. And he basically gave us the initial investment to turn women in CX from a kind of broadcast to podcast into a platform with an online community that.

So many more women were going to be able to have this platform to find connection, to share with one another, to learn from one another, to grow together and get this feeling that I got a feeling so supported, in the conversations I had and being able to give that to more women.

[00:17:09] Clare Muscutt: So it was interesting because we took that money and went into basically what I call the best customer experience design project of my life, because I had no idea how to build a community, no idea how to build a platform based business, but I didn't know how to design customer experience. So, the kind of evolution that we went through was women who followed the podcast.

Me doing qualitative research with them under the sun and their barriers and their needs. Some of those women, the initial nine came from that group and said, we really love to be part of building this with you. So it was like kind of alpha founding members as they were called originally. And we went on the journey together of designing our MVP, MTP and prototype of the app and the desktop version of the community.

And then on international women's day, March the eighth, just this year, we had the painstaking task of selecting 30 women to become a Bita founding members because our next step was about co-design. and they joined us and took part in something. I guess what we were laying out on the menu. But also they can get involved in workshops where we went on to design this platform together based on feedback and not just feedback, but actual co-design.

so the eight weeks later we were able to open to the public and I'm grateful to every single one of the alphas and the B2 founding members, because without them, this just would not exist. And, and the speed that we did it. Like, honestly, I'd say bell is Testament to what happens when women collaborate, because you go from zero to MVP in eight weeks and then eight weeks later to launch.

[00:18:46] Bill Staikos: Yeah, no kidding. I think that's a, that's a model for a lot of people to, to, to be able to practice. So, that's really quick work. That's amazing. so now you, so you started off with just, just under 40, 40 women, whereas women in CX.

Now, do you, do you mind sharing if you don't want to that's okay.

Hi, it, it hasn't been a case of start a Facebook group. Get everybody in. Yeah. I just pack it to the rafters. It's very, very intentional that I meet every single person who's applied. And on the way in decide, is this the right time to join? And as a result, our culture is so strong. We often compare kind of our social network to.

The outside world and there's nothing but kindness support and encouragement on this platform. And that's down to, I think that the kind of membership that we've built.

Like, what's your like, Yeah.

So I know you're coming in January to join us. But we've had people like Ian golden at what concern, Jeannie Walters. I we've got shat pike and come in in the new year, gee and blessed. So, access to the most incredible CX, speakers, but also things like L and D content helping with personal development as well.

but I think the most important thing is access to one another because the peer to peer mentorship and peer to peer learning. It's a fundamental thing of a community. Everything else we do. That's great. It's, it's helpful, but the real value in this, I think comes through the, the community spirit and what women gained by feeling supported just as I did, when I made my pivot and started all over again, I we're seeing women getting promotions, pay rises, asking for what they need, getting resources, starting new businesses, like.

[00:21:43] Bill Staikos: I love the peer-to-peer aspect. I think that's such a, an important component to it. People coming together regularly sharing challenges that they have sharing successes, lifting each other up. I'm part of a peer to peer network and I'm grateful for it each month I come together with those individuals and just talk through.

And it's, it's a learning experience, but you're helping others grow as well, which there's this wonderful, just rewarding.

Customer service contact center. when we talked about kind of why customer experience feels a bit broken at the moment, we've got all of the expertise and knowledge that surrounds customer experience and the touch points that we now need to bring back together. All having conversations on this platform.

So I strongly believe in answers to the question of where we're going. One of our goals is to shape the future of CX by nurturing women's ideas and promoting their voices. That is where I want to continue to take this community, promoting diversity and inclusion by leading by example. But that's not going to change.

We're going to want to continue to do that. And, and, and to provide these opportunities for women to. Network, create content, utilize our platform to get noticed, get their ideas out there. I see the future is just being always getting better at doing those three things and heading closer to our goals and becoming a powerful kind of force within the CX community.

[00:23:34] Clare Muscutt: No, but for as long as I can, I'm going to, because I think if you put down solid foundations, the sustainability for the long term is going to be there.

So, so as well as that co-design sessions, we do it kind of quarterly now. And we do a rev each time, each quarter. So we do. Both of our member survey and then host co-design workshops off the back of what we found in the, in the, Kwon and like our MPS this time around, it was 91. Holy cow. I know it was 88 the first time.

So like, I think is, well as like being an awesome community for women in CX, we've got this case study go in of when you do actually put people at the heart of your decision-making and design experiences. The outcome and the results that you can deliver so much stronger. So as well as like gross and that, that becoming commercially viable within six months, how many startups do that?

You know, I, but what I've learned from communities now, I've been trying to find out more about how to build them. Like even in the community space, like member experience, isn't a key driver of it. So. I think we're doing something pretty new and innovative in startups, communities and, on platforms.

Yeah. Sometimes the device is almost the same, but what advice do you have for listeners who want to go? Let's just say, achieve whatever that next level is for them. Perfect.

Inside an organization or whether you decide to go it alone, the first one is being absolutely crystal clear on your values and what you stand for, because if you can operate from a position of your own personal values, the decisions you're able to make them, the confidence you're able to have as a result of that stops you from doubting yourself, which leads me to the second point, which.

Believe in yourself. I know there's a meme game round on Instagram at the moment. Like nobody is going to do this for you. Nobody is going to get you that seat at the table or start your business for you or help you to achieve whatever goal you want. so being able to get your engine rev and for yourself and.

Do that independently. Is it really important? I think finding your tribe. So whether that's inside a business or within a community space or within a professional kind of networking group, surround yourself by people that you aspire to be. So the inspiration that comes from that and leveling up.

Emphasize it further, you are the sum total of the people that you spend time. So make sure that the great ones, and then I guess the final one is just about having a growth mindset because the only times. Not succeeded is when I've had a fixed mindset. So the best feedback I ever had was about how coachable I am, how open to learning.

I am my kind of principles of test learn, iterate, fail, like I'm happy to, to fail and, and be proud of that. And, and it's really helped me to beat things like my perfectionism. So

and sponsor frankly, is what you really have to do. Females who want to get to that next level of ethnic minorities that want to get to that next level.

What we need to drive is greater equality. So for me, like I'm an intersectional feminist. I know I have it easy in comparison to, women who experienced discrimination on other divides, like race and sexual orientation. So. I think as a, as a woman, it's about, for me looking around and going, how can I use what I've got to help people who have less advantage than me?

So again, there's intentionality behind wanting countries like God or Botswana or Malawi to be involved in women in CX and have an equal seat at the table is because I recognize. Coming from a developing country means quite often, you're excluded. The reason we put a 70% low lower price in for developing countries is because we want to make it accessible.

So I think for anybody he wants to support others. It's about leveling the playing field and you're using your. Privilege or your power or your ability to do that, to help people, he probably need more, more of your support to reach that level playing field. and then I love what you do. like I'm part of the reason I really want you to come to reminisce yet is as an ally, you don't just talk about it.

You're not just like I coach a few people. You built a female leadership team and a succession plan for women to take that seat at the table. And yeah, so, so again, it, that's the word we keep using time and again, here, right? It's the intention behind making a difference and taking action steps that prove it to mentoring, I think was a great example.

Mentoring somebody different to yourself is powerful. Like my mentors. There aren't enough women mentors to go around guys. But I also know men are quite nervous about mentoring women because yeah, there's a lot of fear out there around, or what if I get taken the wrong way, or if I say something wrong or do something wrong.

So having the courage to kind of face into that and not worry so much about, am I going to say the wrong thing to someone who's different to me. having the positive intent and making that clear, is far more powerful than kind of sitting back and going, oh, but if I say the wrong thing, maybe I'll get in trouble, which I think is the reality for a lot of people.

And then, supporting people with access to things like women in CX. So the number of women that have come to me and said, I work in this male dominated environment and I gave them the employer sponsor pack and they want me to pay for it myself.

Individual to, to be a woman CX. If I could give a plug for one of our listeners, she talks about having mentors who are a different gender, different race, and helping them kind of. Look at problems or challenges from that perspective. And it could open up completely new avenues for you. It's something that I practice all the time.

I actually try and have five mentors per year. And each year I get very specific. Mentors are younger, they're older than me. They're a different gender or they're different race. And I go to them and I ask for help constantly. I mean, really constantly. And all my success is, going back to your point around asking.

Any success I've had is because people have helped me along the way, but you got to raise your hand and have the courage to ask, but how are you seeing more and more of that? Or are you trying to maybe even make some of those that while you are right, because you're bringing in individuals from third world countries, giving them an equal set up seat at the table, which is so important in all this.

How are you thinking about maybe creating some more. For a woman in CX.

Well, listen. so for example, we created a circle for Africa within the community led by Monday. So Makabali, and she's supporting local conversations and she's the right person to lead it because, at the end of the day is like a host of a community. I don't have the answers to everything and I'm not the right person to be front and center all the time.

So I guess maybe that's the other thing is, how can those of us who have a platform? So like a podcast, for example, I've been using that to amplify the voices of others and to give them the stage and give them the microphone, because actually issues of race aren't mine to discuss for sure. And.

I've never say no to anyone who wants me to come and talk about diversity and inclusion on a panel of all white people. It's just a no. So, so I think reverse mentoring is a great idea, but kind of going back to my original point, it's recognizing a difference positively and creating a quality and using time, effort, energy in whatever form to create equal opportunity.

Anyone who isn't receiving that?

yeah, sometimes the equity sometimes gets lost a little bit because I do feel sometimes let's just change it to equal. Right. And inclusion doesn't necessarily mean equal all the time.

[00:33:33] Bill Staikos: a fair chance, but also equal is very different because that feels more intentional to me.

Right. Sometimes a fair chances is intentional, but. It may not be fully driven and supported by, by everyone. So the word equal for me is just very different. It's more, it's more impactful for me, maybe.

No matter. And for our community. That's the number one thing we measure. Did you, do you feel welcome and included, does this community feel like a space that was designed for you? And do you feel part of this equally? And we've, we're getting nine and a half and 10 all the time. So we know we're doing a great job at that.

equality. If you're not being inclusive, right? At the end of the day, you've got to be bring people to the table. Claire, you, you inspire me in a lot of different ways. One kind of what you've done in this space to building a community and really helping people be successful and, and looking within themselves and realizing that they can be in giving them the courage to go out, ask for help, and engage with others and support one another.

[00:34:47] Clare Muscutt: Oh, gosh, how I use the places. I one, I read a lot, so I don't keep myself in the customer experience world all the time. I looked for my inspiration outside of it. I've got reading at least one book down a week now down by audio books. So listening to audio books while I go for a walk or like, look after my home.

Ah, single health mentorship. So that, you know, you were talks about surrounding yourself with people that you aspire to be. So shout out to people like Matt Watkins in who support what a guy. Well, I did definitely, definitely get him on the podcast. If you haven't already,

[00:35:30] Clare Muscutt: vital, my favorite people too.

And it gives me so much of his time, but mentoring me around resilience. More than anything, but I have to say it's the women in my community on a day-to-day basis. I see their struggles and challenges and how they get over them and the successes that they managed to achieve on literally every day, I walk in digitally to this community and feel absolutely.

Awesome.

And I can't wait for it and thank you for the invite. I'm on.

All right, everybody. What a fantastic episode this week. We'll see you talk to you sooner.

The need to be customer led with bill staikos.

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