Most organisations have a community of practice that nobody actually wants to attend. It sits in the calendar every two weeks, a handful of people talk, and the rest stay silent. Suzanne Lagerweij has a simple explanation for why: people don't feel like they matter there. Why would anyone go the extra mile if they go unnoticed?

Suzanne brings a background in psychology and social work, including working with troubled teenagers in group homes. She sees clear parallels with software teams: stubborn people you can't order around, where nothing moves until you understand what they need.

At her current client, AI adoption consisted of exactly one thing: an Excel sheet where a few early adopters logged their experiments. There was no direction and no support, and nobody was listening. So Suzanne, brought in to coach a very difficult team, organised an internal AI conference that nobody had asked for. Management said yes, but mostly worried about the hours lost from the roadmap. About 100 people came to the first edition and 150 to the second.

Alongside the conference she started a biweekly AI café: a demo, a conversation and a freshly baked cake. She refused to make it hybrid, because "if you want to have an actual community that works, people have to be together."

Her own team went from being the problem team to being the department's AI frontrunners. Not everything moved, though. Management loved the energy, right up to the point where they realised they were part of the problem. Suzanne proposed a questionnaire to understand where developers were on the learning curve. It came back longer and mandatory, with everyone summoned to a meeting to fill it in. "Well, that's not how it works."

This conversation explores what it takes to build a community people actually want to be part of. That means making invisible work visible to the people who can support it, and recognising people as individuals. It also means finding successors before you leave, and being honest about why you're doing it when it isn't your job. Wouter Lagerweij joins in to connect the mandatory survey to Goodhart's law, with token spend as the new lines of code. As Suzanne puts it: if you don't, then who does?

Key Discussion Points

• [00:01] From Group Homes to Lifeless Chapters: Suzanne's background in social work, and why communities of practice become just another meeting when people feel unnoticed
• [03:45] The Spreadsheet Was the Strategy: AI adoption amounts to an Excel sheet of experiments, so Suzanne organises an internal conference nobody budgeted for
• [05:00] A Stage, Not a Finished Product: Convincing reluctant speakers that a session is a story, and bringing management in to see what's really happening
• [07:00] Cake, Demos, and No Hybrid: The biweekly AI café that turned a problem team into frontrunners, and why Suzanne insisted people be in the room
• [10:00] Management as Part of the Problem: Managers who liked the movement, but not what it revealed about them
• [13:30] If You Don't, Who Does?: Why communities collapse when the organiser leaves, and the effort of finding people to carry it forward
• [15:00] Making People Change Makers: Small steps, visible value, and Wouter on appreciation and recognition as the basics that make people feel important
• [19:00] The Mandatory Questionnaire: Measuring productivity versus understanding the learning curve, and why enforced participation breaks the instrument

Guest: Suzanne Lagerweij (with Wouter Lagerweij)

Host: Kenny Schwegler

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Stories of

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Facilitating Architecture and Design.

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you see I'm alone, no

co-conspirator today.

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Andrew unfortunately couldn't show

up, and Andrea has a session today.

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but we are with two guests today.

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Both will have their own episodes,

but they're here as we did before.

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welcome Wouter and Susan.

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Hi.

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Good to see you.

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Kenny Schwegler: yeah,

let's start with your story,

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: I'm very curious.

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah.

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Um, hi, uh, hi everyone.

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My name is Suzanne Lagewej.

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I have a background in psychology.

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I'm really interested in, in people's

needs, and I always like to find

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out, h- what makes them thrive.

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I have a background in working in

social services, so, I've dealt with

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very complex social situations, and

I actually apply that in software

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engineering teams at the moment.

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And this session I'm gonna share a

story about, the adoption of AI at a

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current client, and why we need to bring

people together to create movement.

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That's what my story is about.

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So, um, as I just mentioned, I have

a background in, uh, psychology

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and, uh, I found it very interesting

to see how things apply in working

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with software development teams.

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So I started to work as a freelance

coach, in software engineering.

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And, I like to see, see the

similarities between, running a

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business and running a family.

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So when I work with software development

teams, I, see a lot of parallels

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between working with a group…

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with, troubled teenagers in group

homes, and working with software

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development teams, because in both

situations you have those very

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difficult, stubborn te- teenagers to

work with, and you have to find a way

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to make things work with that group.

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So that is a lot about listening,

understanding, seeing the needs

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of people, and supporting that.

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I think that's mainly what we need to

do in general in work situations So,

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um, I started working with my current

client that I'm gonna be talking

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about right now about two years ago.

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So they hired me because they

had a very, very difficult team

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that I- they needed support with.

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So they hired me for six months, and

after those six months, they didn't

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wanna let me go because they really felt

like I was creating the movement that

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they didn't even know they, they needed.

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So, creating that movement is something

that comes natural for me because I

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always like to bring people together,

whether that's, like, in my private

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situation where I, for example, I create,

like, I, I host, in the neighborhoods,

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drinks with the people to get tho-

those people together because I really

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feel that is also like a community

that's important for us in our lives.

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But I think the same applies

for the work situation.

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So what we see in a work situation is

that, companies organize, like chapters

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or squads or communities of practice,

for that particular reason, to pe-

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bring people together to have the right

discussions with, with people as a group.

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but what I see, with my

clients is that usually those

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communities feel very lifeless.

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it's mostly like something that we need

to do, like another recurring meeting

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that we have to attend with only a

handful of people actually doing stuff,

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and the rest sort of staying silent,

and I think that's a total waste.

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And I think that's mostly because people

don't feel like they really matter.

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Why would they take an extra mile

if they get unnoticed, right?

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Um, so I was a part of the Scrum

Master chapter for a while, and

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I had an AI training last summer.

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And after this training, I realized that

I wanted to, help gets with, get involved

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in the AI adoption for the department

because, of course, all the companies at

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the moment are looking for ways to, to

start working with AI, but how can you

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do that in an effective way, and what are

all the challenges that you're facing?

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So the only thing that was happening

at that moment was they had an

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Excel sheet that people could put

their experiments on, 'cause of

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course, there were a couple of early

adopters, getting started with AI.

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Um, but other than that sheet,

nothing really happened.

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No direction, no listening to the needs of

people, no support by management at all.

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So I had a couple of those people in

my team, and I was talking to them,

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and as I mentioned, I find it important

to, to listen to the needs of people.

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So I, I talk to people to see what, what

I think is useful to create that movement.

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So, I decided to start organizing an

AI conference, an internal conference

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for the people at my departments.

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So I talked to management if that was

okay, and they were okay with it, but

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they were mostly concerned about, using

all those hours, not being productive

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at all because we have a roadmap full

of work that people need to work on.

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Um, so there was not

very much encouragement.

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There was mostly discouragement

of the whole experimentation.

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I, organized this conference and,

we had, about 100 participants.

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it was not easy to get things going

because I had to put a lot of time

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and effort in, the publicity, getting

people to understand why you want to

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submit a session, through the link.

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People were like, "I, I'm not

the kind of person to stand

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on stage and share my story."

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And I was only trying to make them aware

that it's not about, like, a complete

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product that you have developed, it's,

it's about d- d- sharing your story.

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What is the process of what you're doing?

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What have you run into?

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And we need to have that conversation

with each other together because we

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need the management to understand how

they can give direction and support,

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because that was what missing.

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And I realized that it was mostly

missing because they had no clue

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what was going on in the workspace.

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So I organized this conference

for a couple of reasons.

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First, to create a stage for the

people that were experimenting

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to show their story and, be seen.

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also for other people, to, to come as a

visitor, to, to get inspired, to, to, to

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see what's going on, to learn from that.

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also to create, like, a little

sort of community for people to

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get together to learn and develop.

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And last but not least, to get management

to come and see and listen and understand

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what the support was that they needed.

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Um, it was a great experience.

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Everyone was very happy.

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Management was initially hesitant,

but they were very happy because

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they could feel the energy

starting to flow during this event.

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same applied for the speakers

and the participants.

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Everyone's like, "We

need this more often."

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So of course there came a second episode

that was, this year in June with a

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growing number of 150 participants,

The first time we had 20 sessions, and

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the second time we had, I think, 35.

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and there's gonna be a

third one in November.

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but I'm gonna miss that one because I'm

handing it over now to my colleagues

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to organize it So that was very,

very well, um, uh, appreciated.

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And, um, next to that, I decided

to organize, like a smaller

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thing that's like an AI cafe.

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It's a biweekly meeting.

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A- actually, a naturally growing

community of practice because it's

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not what we have to do, but it's

something that we feel like we need.

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So I started hosting this meeting.

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it originated in my team where we started

having this meeting every two weeks about

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a year ago, just internal for my team to

have discussions about AI and how we apply

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it, what we run into, what's changing,

what's going on in the world of AI.

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And then, I convinced my team after a

while to open the door for other teams

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because it seemed like my team was

moving from being like a problematic

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team towards being the frontrunner in AI.

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And that was basically because I

was supporting, I was listening,

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I was move, moving things.

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I was having my team, start to

see why they mattered, and that

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is a very important factor in

terms of internal motivation.

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So where I just mentioned, like the, the,

the, the lifeless chapters that we very

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often see, that's mostly because people

feel unnoticed, so that immediately

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has an impact on their motivation.

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the AI, AI cafes were, very

well, visited also because it's a

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place where people get together.

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every two weeks there is a presentation,

so I invite people to give a demo.

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and then next to that there is the

opportunity to discuss stuff and to

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have a chat and enjoy my freshly baked

cake because I always bring in fresh

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cake 'cause I think you need to create

an environment where people want to be.

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because they also ask me like,

"Can we also do it like remotely?

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Can we do it, have it like hybrid because

I'm not in the office on, on Thursday?"

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And so I decided to, not to do that

because I want to prevent from people

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being in the office, staying behind

their desk, and just, putting on

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their headphones to only see the

demos and not be a part of that group.

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because I really believe in like if

you want to have an actual community

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that works, people have to be together.

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There have to, to, to, to be

connection between the people.

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You have to feel what they need, and

that, that, that really happens over

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a cup of coffee and some nice cake.

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So, That's mainly what I've been

trying to, to do to get things moving,

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and I'm really happy to see that

people are taking it over right now.

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It doesn't come very naturally for a

lot of people because most of the people

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are used to staying in their comfort

zone just behind their desk, as I just

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mentioned, with the headphones on,

focusing on their work, mostly developers

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and testers, where you see that happening,

and I'm just trying to open it up.

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I'm gonna leave pretty soon and, uh, in my

team the energy started to flow, and I'm

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h- really hoping that that's also gonna

spread, through the whole, departments.

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I'm gonna be moving on to, to another,

client pretty soon, but they actually

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wanted to keep me there because

they feel like we could also use

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it for other departments as well.

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I think the problem mostly at this

client where-- that I didn't, fix

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yet is, management's issues because,

management is, has a different

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view on, on, on the work, as I do.

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So they're mostly focused on, the, the

model of, of, roles and responsibilities

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and keeping that to specific people.

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So they were really confused when

I started because I was not s-

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sticking to my, specific role.

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I was actually bringing movement, and

they had mixed feelings about that

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because they really like that because

I actually challenge things, and I put

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things on the table, and they could

feel that things started to move.

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But, and they really, supported that,

and they enjoyed it very much, but

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not for the parts where they realized

that they were a part of the problem.

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So I thought that was

quite, quite funny to see.

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So, what I also did during, my

contract here is, support them and

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coach them by actually showing them

ways of looking differently at pe-

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at people, creating a real safe space

by listening to them and, seeing ways

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of opening, their work, so they could

actually use their potential more than

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just strict what they were hired for.

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and I'm…

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Yeah, I, I can only support that.

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And, and for a couple of the

managers, I really saw how

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they, how I opened their eyes.

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And, since it is, of course, a part

of the culture, it's not something

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that's will, go, very, go fast.

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But as long as we have a couple of

people that you can inspire in a way

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that they see things differently,

and they understand what's intrinsic

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motivation is and why we need that, what

we can do to actually have people jump

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out of bed in the morning rather than,

"There is another day, another meeting.

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I'll stay at home because,

you know, I'd get unnoticed.

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Who cares?"

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So, yeah, the people approach, I think,

is crucial for creating movements.

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you need those communities to emerge,

to create a movement, but also

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you need to move things to create,

create, create those communities.

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As I mentioned, it doesn't come naturally,

but as long as you put a lot of time

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and effort in doing that, and you find

support in management to spread that

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because you also need them to be on

board to understand why you need those

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communities and why you need, like,

in conference, stuff like that, that,

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that's That's what makes me happy.

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If I see that, that I ha- ma- can make

a difference for people in the teams,

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but also broader in the organization.

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And as long as I see that I have

created that movement, I can

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very happily say goodbye to this

client and, see what I can do next

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Kenny Schwegler: Thanks.

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So of points I was thinking

about, but I think a lot of…

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been engineer for 14 years, so

the between working and learning,

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I think that's it, right?

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Because the community thing is learning.

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Suzanne Lagerweij: It is learning.

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Yeah, I think it's learning.

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It's, it's also, connection and

making sure that there is alignment.

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We can talk about

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Kenny Schwegler: Yeah

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Suzanne Lagerweij: you have to find

alignment, but how do you do that?

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Kenny Schwegler: Yeah, and what I also

thinking, what I'm, I'm find curious,

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and I don't know the answer, maybe

you do hopefully, and I think a lot

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of people struggle with this, is you

talk about intrinsic motivation and

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people who are there and experiencing

this, they get a good experience from

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: But I also have the

feeling that when you and es- and

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also you bringing Pie and everything,

uh, go, uh, it sometimes collapse.

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I've seen this before.

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But on the other hand,

there's intrinsic motivation.

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So what stops people from actually

this out of themselves instead of,

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"Oh, let's put the headphones on and

start working on the roadmap again,"

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: there is intrinsic

motivation to do it, but on the other

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hand, yeah, they want to do this, but as

soon as there's not someone driving it, it

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It, it, it gets stuck.

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I totally agree.

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'Cause I have a number of people asking me

questions like, "Why are you doing this?

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That's not a part of your, assignment.

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That's not what you should be doing."

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Kenny Schwegler: So that's,

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Suzanne Lagerweij: And

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Kenny Schwegler: then nobody did

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Suzanne Lagerweij: yeah.

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so I really had to, to put a lot of

effort in finding people to take over

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organizing the conference, and I'm,

I'm really happy that I actually found

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two, female colleagues, 'cause I think

you need to have, like, both man and

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female, uh, colleagues in that group.

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So we have two guys, two girls.

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And, so I, I, I like to bring them

together and, and, and connect, and

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understand you want … Y- you need people

who believe in it, and also who want to

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carry it out, and ignore the fact that

maybe it's not something that you should

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be doing, but if you don't, then who does?

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Kenny Schwegler: Yeah.

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that's, I think it's, maybe it's a m- I

don't know if it's a management problem

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or something, but what if you're an

engineer, like I'm trying to do this now

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: there's a lot of

people have the feeling roadmap, you,

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you, you said it yourself, right?

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The roadmap is more important,

gives more meaning to

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: While

we all want this for a

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: so what's the f- how

do you get people to stop going to the

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roadmap or stop prioritizing the roadmap

actually and find this more priority?

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah, you have

to, to, to find it tempting for

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them to be a part of it, right?

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So I think, first of all, I

think it- it's small steps.

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help them take small steps towards

the direction where you wanna go, and

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also make visible what they're doing

and s- and make them, realize what

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the value is that they are creating.

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And value can be value, for, for,

for the department, for, for maybe

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for business, but can also be f- for

the team or for you individually.

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and I think as long as there is enough

attention for, people to see how they

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can make a difference and why we need

them, so make them feel responsible

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for that change, and, and make them

feel that they're not doing it alone.

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So you're, you're bringing people

together for that particular reason.

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And then talk to each other and

make sort of a plan in concrete

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steps, like, what can we do first?

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So make them be a part of that change.

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Make them a change maker, even

though they probably don't like

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that word, but that is what it is.

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Wouter Lagerweij: yeah.

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Yeah.

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If I can…

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I think that one of the things

that's really different from when

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you are engaged in those situations

is appreciation and recognition.

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Yeah.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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you invite people to do these things,

but you also make them important

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by- treating them as important- Yeah

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and treating people as, as

important for doing them.

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Yeah.

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It's, it, that's, that's really basic, but

that's- Yeah … that's something I see.

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Suzanne Lagerweij: It is very bas- And

it's also different for each individual.

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So some people need more time, some

people need more encouragement.

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and you have to, pay attention to the

dynamics in that group to see, like, who

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is here an important player, who could be,

like, an informal leader that I have to

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pull in first so other people will follow.

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So it is a lot about group dynamics,

psychology, that can help you.

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what's the, the title of

the book again from Katz?

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It's, Psychology in Software

Development Teams or something.

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The,

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Wouter Lagerweij: The Psychology

of, of Software De- Teams.

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah.

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So she wrote a book.

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that's one to recommend.

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I think it would be good for people,

who want to make that change to,

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to, to dive more into the psychology

behind software development teams.

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Wouter Lagerweij: That's Ka- Katz.

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Yeah.

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Kenny Schwegler: I think, yeah,

I think, and I learned this from

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Evelyn, and from my partner as well.

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we have this error.

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I cannot remember the bias anymore,

but we think people are like us, right?

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If you…

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Uh, and, and that's

not the thing, I guess.

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what you're mentioning, right?

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Everyone has different needs.

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When I train tech leads, they're like,

"Yeah, but why are people quiet?"

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Well, you should ask, right?

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Some people just need time to think.

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Some people just,

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah.

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Kenny Schwegler: don't have anything

to say or anything to add because

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everything's already s-spoken.

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: And what,

what I find interesting here is

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what, what you're saying, right?

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appreciation, and especially now with AI,

because I feel like that's with AI, right?

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It's…

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AI is being appreciated, but not

the human connection anymore.

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Do you, do you see that as well?

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Because you went to management,

and they're like, "Well, roadmap

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is more important," right?

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These are the things that

give value to, people, right?

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If they talk more about roadmap than

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: of practice,

of course, the roadmap gets

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more value from management, and

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: what they get.

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But why everyone, for some reason…

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Well, everyone almost likes, in a

way, in their own way, the connection.

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I think that's the first part,

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Mm-hmm.

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Kenny Schwegler: but also,

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: people like

it, but we don't value it in

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the office for some reason.

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Suzanne Lagerweij: What's really

interesting is that I was a part

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of, the AI, adoption, and I…

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So I was a part of this group, looking

into, what we need to do and, and,

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and how, how we can give direction.

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And, management was mostly interested

in how can we, make visible, how

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much more we can do when we use AI.

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So, can we, do more work or do

we need, less, fewer people?

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And they wanted to make that visible, and

I was, part of that, that's, conversation.

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So I was basically helping them

understand, like, well, what

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are we gonna measure and how

are we going to measure it?

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And also, what do you want to measure?

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do you want to be focused on,

whether or not you can speed up in

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your development process, or do you

need to realize that when there is,

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an adoption of new technologies,

there's always a learning curve, and

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where are we in this learning curve?

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How do we know where we are, and how

do we make sure that the experience

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for a developer in how things are

changing, that we pay attention to that?

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The only th-way, I think, to find

out is to talk to them and listen

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to, as I just mentioned, their

needs, and you can do that, like,

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by using, like, an, a questionnaire,

to, to, to collect all that.

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so I, I, I suggested that, and I, I made

a questionnaire to use, and then they

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totally changed that questionnaire, added

a lot of more questions, and they wanted

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to make sure that everyone would fill

it out, so they would, like, organize

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this meeting where everyone had to

attend, and everyone had to fill it out.

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And then I was just trying to tell

them, "Well, that's not how it works."

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so, you really need to talk to

people, like, in person and, and

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listen to what their concerns are,

and create this safe space that they

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feel like they can actually speak up

what they're mostly concerned about.

380

Uh, and as long as you s-you

stay focused on the roadmap and

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productivity, you're really gonna

miss out on what you need to do.

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So yeah.

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Kenny Schwegler: Yeah.

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Wouter Lagerweij: It's, an interesting

version of Goodhart's law, right?

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whether that's the financials that

people are focusing on as the measure,

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or o-one story I heard, and I'm

just gonna insert that is luckily

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not at this company, of course.

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But this where they're very much

focused on, "We need, we need to use

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our AI subscription," and, developers

were simply, setting the agents

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off to do work on their own so that

they could focus on their homework.

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Kenny Schwegler: Yeah.

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You, you see the thing again, right?

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I've been engineering for 14 years

and it was lines of code for…

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And now it's token spend or something

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: been recently too.

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But yeah, and there was

someone if you, if you…

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I'm not sure what the quote was, but

right, if you force people to enter

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the questionnaire, you get the wrong

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Kenny Schwegler: Yeah.

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And it's so weird that,

right, I, I want this.

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It's about you and not anymore

about the other person.

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: I guess if you want

to understand the other person, you

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need to let go of your own needs

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah.

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Kenny Schwegler: that

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Suzanne Lagerweij: If you ask the

question, are you willing to be, to get

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surprised and change your view on the

situation, or are you gonna be stuck in

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your own mental model and based on, on

the assumption that, that you already had?

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Kenny Schwegler: So question.

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If someone is listening here and

they want to start this community

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of practice, doesn't matter which

role they're in because, right,

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Okay.

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Kenny Schwegler: can

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah

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Kenny Schwegler: Uh, that's

what we did at Steso as well.

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How, how would you start?

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do you think you need management approval

because you went to management and said,

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"We're gonna do this," or do you think,

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah,

that's a good question.

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So my, my answer would be first thing,

make sure you, you bake some fresh cake.

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Some people like … No, but, uh, uh,

I tried to do it like the official way.

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It didn't work.

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I waited for way too long.

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Um, but I started small in my

team, and I first had to make sure

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that they felt confident enough

to open the door a little bit.

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So we opened it a little bit first,

so take steps, small steps, and, and

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make sure that you, that the community,

the, the community of practice is

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what it's supposed to be about.

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It has to be about the people.

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It has to be about the specific

conversation that's it based upon.

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So those are the people that, you want to

attract the right people to, to join that.

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and sometimes it's even better

if management is not a part of it

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because as soon as they enter the

room, the conversation will change.

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and then maybe you lose, the essence

of what you want to, achieve.

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Kenny Schwegler: Great.

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Thanks.

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I think that's a great wrap up of today.

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thanks.

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See you in the-- or hear you or

listening or reading or whatever

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people, uh, consume in the next episode.

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Thank you

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah.

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Thanks.

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Kenny Schwegler: and, see you next

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Suzanne Lagerweij: Yeah.

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Bye