Shownotes
In this episode of Doing Divorce Different, host Lesa Koski welcomes Dr. Price—a trailblazing attorney, educator, and autism therapist—who shares her extraordinary journey of combining legal expertise with a deep commitment to justice and special needs advocacy.
With over 25 years of experience as a civil trial attorney and prosecutor, Dr. Price has served as an expert witness and consultant in more than 75 cases involving special needs issues. She brings a unique perspective to the table, highlighting the intersection of law, public service, and personal advocacy.
Now an esteemed professor and Academic Program Director at National University, Dr. Price continues to shape future leaders, drawing on her award-winning teaching skills and unparalleled dedication. She’s also trained in the Judevine method for autism therapy, providing an added layer of insight into the needs of individuals with special needs.
Tune in for an inspiring conversation about breaking barriers, finding purpose, and leading with compassion.
Key Takeaways:
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:18 Peggy's Background and Personal Story
02:36 Challenges of Divorcing with Special Needs Children
07:11 Financial and Legal Considerations
11:22 Parenting Plans and Custody Arrangements
15:26 Support Systems and Resources
31:33 Conclusion and Resources Dr. Price’s legal background intersects with special needs advocacy
Transcripts
Welcome listeners.
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I feel blessed that you're here today
and I'm so thankful, these amazing
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people that I get on my podcast
and we're gonna learn so much.
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I've got.
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Dr.
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Margaret Price with me and Margaret.
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Can I call you Peggy?
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I think I can.
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Please do.
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Yes.
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So, and this is a thing we're
gonna get to know Peggy a lot more
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through our conversation through
this 30 minutes or so, but the
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reason she's, um, really sparked my
curiosity is she's, um, an attorney.
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She's done divorces, I believe, Dr.
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Price.
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Have you been divorced?
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Yes.
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Here's the thing that really stuck
out to, stuck out to me was that you
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specialize in special needs children
and cases, and I might, you're gonna
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make me better at what I do because
when I mediate, I do have those cases
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once in a while and they're tricky.
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And, um, I, you know, I don't always know.
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I have to learn as I go.
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So this podcast is gonna be about.
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Special needs kiddos going through divorce
and it's gonna be a really fun story.
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We're gonna get to know Peggy.
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So Peggy, welcome.
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Um, you've got a lot of education,
you're an attorney, but not only are
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you an attorney, you're a professor, you
also are a trained, trained therapist.
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Autism.
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Autism, and I'm assuming
you were passionate about
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that because of your child.
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Is that true?
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Speaker 2: Yes.
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I have now a young adult child with autism
who was diagnosed back in the 1990s back
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in what they call the dark ages of autism.
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Speaker: Mm-hmm.
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Speaker 2: We've come, that's when
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Speaker: my oldest kiddos were
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Speaker 2: born.
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So I get that era.
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Yes.
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And I got divorced when my
child was six years old.
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Oof.
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And still nonverbal.
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And that was, you would think
it was a tough divorce because
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the father is also an A lawyer.
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Oh, I didn't know that.
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No, but what I explain to
people is generals hate war.
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Yeah, because they've lived it.
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They've seen it.
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Same thing with a lot of lawyers.
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We know how ugly a divorce can
get, so ours was totally civilized.
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Yay.
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Speaker: I love your story
because you know I'm doing divorce
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different, that's what I talk about.
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That's all I wanna talk about.
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So listeners, if this is the
only thing you get out of
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today, you can do this amicably.
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If you both put your minds to it.
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Speaker 2: It often helps to
have some it, because usually a
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divorce is not with lawyers on
both sides as the parties, right.
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So it usually helps to
have a third person who.
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Doesn't want to pour
gasoline on the flames Yep.
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To guide the parties through
to have a civilized divorce,
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especially if they have children.
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Mm-hmm.
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Whether those children have special
needs or not, because the, the
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parents need to work together for
the rest of their lives mm-hmm.
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On raising the child and, you
know, you don't stop being a
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parent when your child turns 18.
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Right, and I, I saw far too many
tragic cases when I was practicing law.
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I'm full-time academia now, um, in
which I would warn my client and
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in, in the hearing of the other
other party, that one day their
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child would graduate high school.
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Graduate college, get married,
have kids, did they want to ruin
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all of those moments because of a
temporary fight during the divorce?
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Right?
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Because those fights, those
battles destroy relationships
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and it's not fair to the kids.
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Nope.
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So we, so we had an
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Speaker: amicable divorce.
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Good for you.
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And so I, I'm hoping that we can help
people with that, but I'm hoping that
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as we go on our journey here and learn a
little bit more about this, we can also
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help someone who isn't as fortunate and
maybe doesn't have, because you know,
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it has to be voluntary on both sides.
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And so if you're in this with someone
who's not very voluntary, then let's.
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Get to how we can, because that, I imagine
how hard that would've been, Peggy.
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Oh yeah.
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If you, you know, I mean, I
can't, I, I can't even imagine.
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Speaker 2: Well, what I realized
immediately after the divorce,
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'cause it only took a couple
of months, it was non-tested.
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But I, I realized immediately
afterward that if I weren't already
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a lawyer handling divorces and if I
weren't already an autism therapist
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for several years at that point.
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I would not have had a clue
about the issues that needed
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to be handled in the divorce.
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A lot of people silo their lives.
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Here's their divorce and it's
separate from everything else.
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Here's their child.
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Their child is separate from the rest
of their lives, and that's not life.
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Right?
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It's holistic and so.
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There are issues that must be at
least looked at during a divorce
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for the best interest of the child.
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And that's supposed to be the
standard in American family courts,
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the best interests of the child.
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Speaker: Mm-hmm.
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Speaker 2: And if the unique needs
of a child with special needs
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are not addressed and addressed
appropriately during the divorce,
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the child's needs will not be met.
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The child and the caregiver
parent could live in poverty
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for the rest of their lives.
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We don't want that.
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No.
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That's not what our society wants.
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Speaker: So let's, let's dig into that.
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Let little bit
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Speaker 2: Sure.
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Speaker: Um.
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So say we've got some listeners and they,
they don't even know where to begin.
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You know, they, they're like, okay,
we're, we're getting divorced.
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Either they've got someone who's
gonna work with them or they don't,
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and they have this special needs
kiddo and you're already wiped
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out from the divorce probably.
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Right?
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And then you've gotta think
about this additional piece.
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And my guess is that there are things
that you're gonna have to think about
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even more than you do when you're just.
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Doing a parenting plan for your
kids who don't have special needs.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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How does someone, how does someone figure
those things out and what are they?
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Speaker 2: Well, one of them is
financial and a lot of divorces
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have money problems at their root.
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If there wasn't enough money to go
around for one household, now how on,
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how on earth is it going to work for two?
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And if you have a child with
special needs, it's often more
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expensive because if and special
needs, I don't limit that phrase.
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Only to autism.
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I mean, it could be my question too.
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Yes.
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It could be a child with cancer.
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It could be a child with diabetes who
has to be on a special nutritional
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regimen and have to have blood work
their, their blood levels checked
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multiple times through the day.
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They might have to have
insulin injections.
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There are medical visits, copays,
deductibles, all those things that.
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The additional financial challenges
of raising a child with whatever
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type of special need should
be addressed in the divorce.
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The standard child support
charts don't cover this.
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There is often in, in many states,
aligned for extraordinary expenses.
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But those often get used for trust
fund babies going to private school.
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Speaker: You know, it's so funny, Peggy,
that you're talking about as you're
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talking about this, something popped into
my head and I thought this is interesting.
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So when I was young, I had, um,
a cousin who is exactly my age.
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Good, good friend.
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He's, um.
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He was in a horrible car accident
and had, uh, had a brain injury.
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Uh, he's, you know, functioning okay.
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They state they didn't divorce.
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But what if you don't?
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What if something like that happens?
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Mm-hmm.
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Then, I mean, that's not even something
I ever talk about with clients.
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I mean, that's, you know, they've got so
much on their minds, and you know what?
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That's nothing I've ever even thought
of until just now sitting here with you.
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Speaker 2: And that is another
category of special needs.
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Yeah.
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Where a person has a, a traumatic
accident and long-term impacts from it.
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They might not be able to
live independently ever.
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Right.
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Maybe they can work part-time, but.
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A person can't survive on a part-time
job, or maybe they need a life coach to
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handle their money or their, you know,
living expenses, how to budget, how
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to pay bills, those kinds of things.
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How to not be ripped off by people
who would see them as a target.
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Speaker: So how, how does a couple or a
person going through a divorce wrap their
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hat around what these future expenses
are and how do they, how do you draft
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that so that it goes into the future?
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Speaker 2: Uh, it is hard to think of
everything that you need to include.
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Mm-hmm.
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Luckily, I did write a law
book for lawyers and judges,
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and I wrote a parent guide.
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As another book, and this one
obviously is for parents to educate
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them on if you have, first of all,
here's what a special needs child is.
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A lot of people don't think of their
children as having special needs.
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Speaker: Mm-hmm.
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Speaker 2: And I would ask, well,
do they have an IEP at school?
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An individualized educational plan?
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Yes.
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Okay.
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They don't hand those
out like candy, right?
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There's a reason why your child
needs additional accommodations
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in order to succeed in school.
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We need to delve into that
and think about how that might
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impact their life down the road.
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Will they be able to go to college?
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Will they be able to have a career?
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Will they be able to make enough
money to support themselves?
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So first for parents to realize, oh, I
have my, I, I have a child with needs
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that need to be addressed in the divorce.
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Yep.
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And then so if they've, if they realize
their child's in that category mm-hmm.
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Then it goes into how it can impact the
child's life currently and down the road,
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how it can impact their siblings lives.
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Because being the sibling of someone with
special needs is interesting as well.
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Yes.
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And a lot of times those children get kind
of shuffled off to the side because there
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aren't enough hours in the day to spend
adequate time with all of the children.
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If one or more have special needs and
one or more do not, which is why the
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parenting plans also need to have.
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Uh, great detail on, on, uh,
visitation and custody schedule.
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You can't just, it, it's bad enough
that a lot of these cases just get
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the cookie cutter preprint printed,
you know, four or six page form and
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one parent gets holiday schedule a,
one parent gets holiday schedule B.
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It's bad enough when that happens, when
there's a child with special needs.
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Putting them in that cookie cutter.
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But when you also have a child or
children who do not have special
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needs, you're putting both groups in
the same schedule and that's wrong.
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Speaker: Mm-hmm.
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Speaker 2: And there are quick
fixes to a lot of these things.
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I mean, we could sit here for
days talking about some of this.
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Can you give me, can
you give me one example?
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Sure.
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Let's say that you have a detailed
parenting plan that minimizes transitions,
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because those are usually mm-hmm.
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A, a challenge for a child with special
needs, and you work really hard on making
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the schedule, the parenting schedule.
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00:13:29,570 --> 00:13:33,675
Uh, modified to meet the,
the child with special needs,
233
00:13:34,185 --> 00:13:36,075
what their unique issues are.
234
00:13:37,755 --> 00:13:41,685
Then you add for each parent separately.
235
00:13:42,285 --> 00:13:50,265
Let's say you have one child with cerebral
palsy and another child who is typical
236
00:13:51,615 --> 00:13:51,915
Speaker: mm-hmm.
237
00:13:53,130 --> 00:13:57,390
Speaker 2: The, the parenting plan
can be crafted around the child with
238
00:13:57,390 --> 00:14:07,860
cerebral palsy, and then you can
add for each parent with the typical
239
00:14:07,860 --> 00:14:15,030
child, they get individual one-on-one
time scheduled once or twice a month
240
00:14:15,570 --> 00:14:17,520
for a three or four hour block.
241
00:14:17,850 --> 00:14:21,540
If you think about the moments
that stand out from your childhood.
242
00:14:23,145 --> 00:14:25,155
They weren't a solid week at a time.
243
00:14:27,015 --> 00:14:28,365
They were the moments.
244
00:14:28,515 --> 00:14:36,495
And when a parent gets the freedom to
spend a few hours once or twice a month
245
00:14:37,665 --> 00:14:43,905
with the typical child and not being
distracted by meeting the needs of the
246
00:14:43,905 --> 00:14:49,275
child with special needs, that's when
they build memories that last a lifetime.
247
00:14:49,574 --> 00:14:49,665
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
248
00:14:51,615 --> 00:14:53,175
That's great information.
249
00:14:53,235 --> 00:14:57,705
And um, and as I'm sitting here,
my head is spinning because, so
250
00:14:57,705 --> 00:15:01,785
I have, I have a great parenting
plan course for typical kids.
251
00:15:02,205 --> 00:15:02,295
Mm-hmm.
252
00:15:02,955 --> 00:15:06,885
So, and I, I always, you know,
I, I tell people if, if you can
253
00:15:06,885 --> 00:15:09,585
do anything together, do that
together and then, you know.
254
00:15:10,260 --> 00:15:13,199
Fire away with attorneys and, but okay.
255
00:15:13,199 --> 00:15:16,260
So I feel like, okay,
what do I add something?
256
00:15:16,260 --> 00:15:21,840
If they get this guide from you,
will they be able to, who do they
257
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:23,790
go to for this parenting plan?
258
00:15:23,819 --> 00:15:24,840
That's what I'm wondering.
259
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:30,360
Speaker 2: Well, the parent guide
that I wrote educates parents on
260
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,280
how to best work with their lawyers.
261
00:15:33,479 --> 00:15:33,770
Okay.
262
00:15:33,944 --> 00:15:36,525
To adv to advocate for their children.
263
00:15:37,245 --> 00:15:40,485
And it explains, so they would go
through their lawyer or if they
264
00:15:40,485 --> 00:15:42,645
were using a mediator, mediator,
that's what they would go through.
265
00:15:43,485 --> 00:15:51,660
And it, it also explains to the parents
that, uh, like the types of evidence
266
00:15:51,660 --> 00:15:56,805
that will be most compelling to the
court, often one parent is in denial.
267
00:15:57,704 --> 00:15:59,235
Oh, there's nothing wrong with my kid.
268
00:15:59,535 --> 00:15:59,865
Yes.
269
00:16:00,225 --> 00:16:05,025
And then the other parent is
knocking themselves out and
270
00:16:05,025 --> 00:16:08,805
making it their life mission to do
everything possible for the child.
271
00:16:10,395 --> 00:16:16,365
So the parent who's in denial says
that the other parent is exaggerating.
272
00:16:16,665 --> 00:16:19,935
Doing this for attention, making
a mountain out of a molehill.
273
00:16:19,935 --> 00:16:23,444
I'm sure you've heard all of
these things dozens of times in
274
00:16:23,444 --> 00:16:26,295
cases that you've handled well.
275
00:16:26,865 --> 00:16:31,155
Each side could spend thousands
of dollars hiring experts to
276
00:16:31,155 --> 00:16:32,535
say what they want them to say.
277
00:16:32,805 --> 00:16:33,255
Right.
278
00:16:33,675 --> 00:16:38,655
And the judge is going to, in at
least on an intellectual level,
279
00:16:38,655 --> 00:16:45,165
if not verbally dismiss the weight
of both experts as a he said, she
280
00:16:45,375 --> 00:16:47,685
said, which is so common in divorce.
281
00:16:48,015 --> 00:16:48,105
Mm-hmm.
282
00:16:48,525 --> 00:16:53,895
So what you need is an unbiased
third party with no skin in the game.
283
00:16:55,365 --> 00:16:56,685
That's the school district.
284
00:16:58,814 --> 00:17:08,295
The school district must provide
under a DA accommodations and, uh,
285
00:17:08,325 --> 00:17:13,875
for under education law for people
with special needs, they must provide
286
00:17:13,875 --> 00:17:19,214
appropriate accommodations so that
they can succeed in public school.
287
00:17:19,214 --> 00:17:19,964
K through 12.
288
00:17:19,964 --> 00:17:20,805
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
289
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:25,199
Speaker 2: In some states, they also
provide it for non-public school.
290
00:17:26,368 --> 00:17:26,848
Okay?
291
00:17:27,060 --> 00:17:32,639
And in order to formulate the IEP
first, they do a battery of tests
292
00:17:32,699 --> 00:17:44,699
on the child, and then they write up
these long reports with diagnoses, with
293
00:17:44,699 --> 00:17:49,230
conclusions, and with a plan, an IEP.
294
00:17:50,595 --> 00:17:52,754
Individualized educational plan.
295
00:17:53,565 --> 00:17:56,264
Now, school districts are
always strapped for money.
296
00:17:56,835 --> 00:18:03,585
They are not going to say, oh, this child
needs 20 hours of pullout therapy a week.
297
00:18:03,585 --> 00:18:04,754
Because of
298
00:18:06,975 --> 00:18:11,865
what people would consider
extraordinarily minor issues.
299
00:18:13,425 --> 00:18:18,585
They will try to satisfy
the letter of the law.
300
00:18:19,965 --> 00:18:24,945
With the minimum amount of therapy
they can, they're going to be very
301
00:18:24,945 --> 00:18:32,445
conservative because they have a lot of
needs for every dollar that they receive.
302
00:18:32,715 --> 00:18:32,895
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
303
00:18:33,915 --> 00:18:40,875
Speaker 2: So they're trying to stretch
their dollars and they're IEP and their
304
00:18:40,875 --> 00:18:44,139
evaluations and their testing reports.
305
00:18:45,945 --> 00:18:50,205
The judge will look at those and you
know, judges are in the real world.
306
00:18:50,205 --> 00:18:53,445
They know about the financial
constraints of school districts.
307
00:18:54,345 --> 00:18:57,255
They know it's not
going to be exaggerated.
308
00:18:58,635 --> 00:19:04,935
And so when I would have
an IEP brought into court,
309
00:19:07,275 --> 00:19:09,705
the judge would pour over it.
310
00:19:09,825 --> 00:19:16,155
To find out exactly what is the real
situation for this child because
311
00:19:16,155 --> 00:19:18,465
the parents often do disagree.
312
00:19:19,275 --> 00:19:19,565
Speaker: Okay.
313
00:19:19,905 --> 00:19:21,840
So that's a really, yeah.
314
00:19:22,110 --> 00:19:22,620
Yeah.
315
00:19:23,340 --> 00:19:24,450
Very, very good.
316
00:19:24,450 --> 00:19:27,120
Unbiased third party, if
that's available to you.
317
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:31,590
I'm gonna guess that there are times
when that, that isn't available to
318
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:35,490
people and then, and then you, it
probably gets a little bit trickier.
319
00:19:36,060 --> 00:19:36,840
Um, absolutely.
320
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:36,930
I
321
00:19:36,930 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 2: mean, you, we, you don't pick
when your marriage is going to fall apart.
322
00:19:40,350 --> 00:19:40,710
Mm-hmm.
323
00:19:41,550 --> 00:19:47,430
And if you have a child who is at
an age where they're just starting.
324
00:19:47,970 --> 00:19:56,100
To exhibit behaviors or symptoms that make
a parent question and they haven't had a
325
00:19:56,100 --> 00:19:58,800
full evaluation yet or a formal diagnosis.
326
00:19:58,800 --> 00:19:58,889
Mm-hmm.
327
00:19:59,490 --> 00:20:00,570
That's tricky.
328
00:20:01,170 --> 00:20:07,139
So what, what I recommend to parents
at that time is make it part of
329
00:20:07,139 --> 00:20:15,960
the record that this is a pending
and emerging issue, and then when.
330
00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:20,220
There is an evaluation and
a formal diagnosis, there's
331
00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:21,690
always the motion to modify.
332
00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:22,649
Speaker: Okay.
333
00:20:23,070 --> 00:20:23,399
Yep.
334
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:29,100
Which is, I'm assuming what people
do if they run into an issue later
335
00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:33,480
on in life with a child who's in a
horrible accident or whatever it is.
336
00:20:33,485 --> 00:20:33,534
Right?
337
00:20:34,050 --> 00:20:34,379
Speaker 2: Right.
338
00:20:34,379 --> 00:20:37,889
Or a child condition
becomes much more severe.
339
00:20:38,190 --> 00:20:38,580
Right.
340
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:44,490
Or, you know, prayers
going or, or better, yes.
341
00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker: Yep.
342
00:20:44,879 --> 00:20:45,090
Yep.
343
00:20:46,455 --> 00:20:53,774
Okay, so now I wanna talk a little bit
about, um, child support's gotta be
344
00:20:53,774 --> 00:20:59,625
different because child support is gonna
cover those kiddos until they're like 18.
345
00:21:00,524 --> 00:21:04,665
What happens with these kids and,
and how do you, how do you set that
346
00:21:04,665 --> 00:21:06,375
up if you're not working together?
347
00:21:07,395 --> 00:21:08,235
Speaker 2: That's tough.
348
00:21:09,195 --> 00:21:14,355
And even if you are and you
have a settlement agreement.
349
00:21:15,435 --> 00:21:22,274
That states that the, uh, because of the
child's special needs, and it enumerates
350
00:21:22,274 --> 00:21:29,115
exactly what the formal di formal
diagnosis is that, uh, this child might
351
00:21:29,115 --> 00:21:34,185
not, that the standard age of emancipation
might not be appropriate with this
352
00:21:34,185 --> 00:21:36,254
child, but you can't tell the future.
353
00:21:36,254 --> 00:21:38,145
So you don't know, right.
354
00:21:38,385 --> 00:21:42,195
Um, raising the issue, it won't stop.
355
00:21:42,660 --> 00:21:49,050
A, a very common situation of down
the road, the other parent becomes
356
00:21:49,050 --> 00:21:53,880
involved with, another person gets
married again and says, oh, hey,
357
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,380
now I have a new family to support.
358
00:21:55,380 --> 00:21:57,120
So this child support needs to stop.
359
00:21:57,330 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
360
00:21:58,290 --> 00:22:01,110
Speaker 2: You know, parenting plans
can't stop people from being human.
361
00:22:01,950 --> 00:22:02,490
Right.
362
00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:09,045
But not only is does the child
support need to be looked at on.
363
00:22:10,110 --> 00:22:16,080
Altering the date of emancipation
and maybe trying to, to give
364
00:22:16,530 --> 00:22:20,610
even the, the problem is you're
trying to nail jello to the wall.
365
00:22:21,030 --> 00:22:22,740
You and gel.
366
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:22,860
Yeah.
367
00:22:22,860 --> 00:22:23,700
Jello to the wall.
368
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:25,560
That might be 10 years down the road.
369
00:22:26,190 --> 00:22:26,490
Mm-hmm.
370
00:22:26,730 --> 00:22:27,570
The child say is eight.
371
00:22:28,170 --> 00:22:28,530
Right.
372
00:22:28,590 --> 00:22:33,870
Um, so what happens is you're
trying to predict the future.
373
00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:36,030
And that's hard.
374
00:22:36,030 --> 00:22:41,639
So maybe setting some kind of
benchmarks on whether the child
375
00:22:41,850 --> 00:22:47,850
is, when the child is actually
financially supporting themselves,
376
00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:51,540
child support will stop.
377
00:22:51,540 --> 00:22:56,429
Now, of course, the flip side, the
argument against that is well then
378
00:22:56,429 --> 00:23:02,250
the parent who's, who's the primary
caregiver parent in reality, if not.
379
00:23:02,745 --> 00:23:05,325
Formally called that in,
in, in the court papers.
380
00:23:05,745 --> 00:23:10,665
Um, we'll have the incentive to keep
the money flowing in to, to coddle
381
00:23:10,665 --> 00:23:14,985
the child and to, um, not right.
382
00:23:15,105 --> 00:23:17,745
Push them to be all that they can be.
383
00:23:18,315 --> 00:23:19,905
And that's a valid argument.
384
00:23:20,655 --> 00:23:23,175
Speaker: Hopefully most parents
are wanting their children
385
00:23:23,235 --> 00:23:24,645
to be all that they can be.
386
00:23:24,645 --> 00:23:25,005
Right?
387
00:23:25,005 --> 00:23:25,785
Exactly.
388
00:23:25,790 --> 00:23:26,220
Exactly.
389
00:23:26,775 --> 00:23:31,815
Speaker 2: But parenting plans need to
cover not only the child support, but.
390
00:23:32,804 --> 00:23:37,574
Special needs children have on
the average three times as many
391
00:23:37,574 --> 00:23:39,345
sick days as typical children.
392
00:23:39,465 --> 00:23:39,794
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
393
00:23:40,665 --> 00:23:45,824
Speaker 2: Now, in the real world,
if the parenting plan does not
394
00:23:45,824 --> 00:23:52,334
say, divide the responsibility for
those sick day sick days fairly.
395
00:23:54,584 --> 00:23:59,925
What happens is often is that the
parent who makes more money says, well,
396
00:23:59,925 --> 00:24:04,844
I can't leave my job to go, you know,
stay home from school with a sick kid.
397
00:24:05,445 --> 00:24:10,395
Um, the other parent ends up now realize
this parent's already trying to live
398
00:24:10,395 --> 00:24:12,014
on less money than the other parent.
399
00:24:12,044 --> 00:24:12,135
Mm-hmm.
400
00:24:13,365 --> 00:24:13,844
Um.
401
00:24:14,625 --> 00:24:21,705
That parent then has the responsibility
for all those sick days, which means that
402
00:24:21,705 --> 00:24:25,065
they tend to frequently lose their jobs.
403
00:24:25,635 --> 00:24:30,435
They get fired because of too
many absences, and then they're
404
00:24:30,495 --> 00:24:36,165
looking for a new job frequently,
and you go in at entry level.
405
00:24:36,284 --> 00:24:36,495
Mm-hmm.
406
00:24:37,575 --> 00:24:42,075
And there are the issues of health
insurance for the parent as well
407
00:24:42,075 --> 00:24:48,135
as the child, because you're often
in a probationary period and.
408
00:24:48,540 --> 00:24:51,870
On saving for, uh, retirement.
409
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,950
You might not be eligible for the
co company 401k plan until you've
410
00:24:55,950 --> 00:24:58,020
been there for a year or six months.
411
00:24:58,290 --> 00:25:03,510
Speaker: Well, yeah, and Peggy, that is
what is screaming in my head right now.
412
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:10,500
What happens to that parent who has maybe
during the marriage been the primary care?
413
00:25:10,530 --> 00:25:12,120
Maybe they're not even working.
414
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:15,720
Maybe they're the primary
caregiver for this child.
415
00:25:16,110 --> 00:25:18,180
What happens when you get divorced?
416
00:25:19,740 --> 00:25:24,720
I can't believe that I haven't had more
of these cases, interestingly enough.
417
00:25:25,020 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, because a lot of
people view the the special needs of
418
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,000
the child separate from the divorce.
419
00:25:33,540 --> 00:25:37,980
This was between the parents, the
divorce was, and then the special needs.
420
00:25:37,980 --> 00:25:41,425
Well, those are something
that happened separately.
421
00:25:41,605 --> 00:25:42,025
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
422
00:25:43,365 --> 00:25:49,334
Speaker 2: And, um, yes, it is
ex an extremely important issue
423
00:25:49,905 --> 00:25:55,574
because it can be so disruptive
of a parent's career when they are
424
00:25:55,574 --> 00:25:57,615
raising a child with special needs.
425
00:25:57,764 --> 00:26:01,334
Speaker: Well, and, and Peggy, I'm just
gonna say this on my own behalf, I feel
426
00:26:01,334 --> 00:26:07,155
like I was, my husband has a big job
and I was, and I wouldn't change it.
427
00:26:07,155 --> 00:26:09,554
I was primary for our three kiddos.
428
00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:17,580
I don't have the career I would've had if
I would have been completely focused on
429
00:26:17,580 --> 00:26:20,700
my career more than taking care of things.
430
00:26:20,970 --> 00:26:21,060
Mm-hmm.
431
00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:26,250
So I mean, I suppose, is that
an argument for maintenance?
432
00:26:26,250 --> 00:26:28,320
I mean, how does that,
how, how do you get that?
433
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:33,570
Or getting more assets or, so that's
just my situation in a typical, but
434
00:26:33,570 --> 00:26:38,850
what happens when you are, you've agreed
that mom is going to take care of child.
435
00:26:39,375 --> 00:26:42,195
And it's a special needs
child and it's a big job.
436
00:26:42,675 --> 00:26:49,125
And then you, and you've been married
maybe 15 years and maybe child's 10.
437
00:26:49,395 --> 00:26:50,745
What happens to Tamma
438
00:26:51,945 --> 00:26:57,435
Speaker 2: or whoever's the one
approach and it, it really is.
439
00:26:58,274 --> 00:27:03,105
A challenge to try to figure out
the dollars and cents of this for
440
00:27:03,105 --> 00:27:05,235
down the road as well as current.
441
00:27:05,804 --> 00:27:11,475
One thing that I have seen parents do
is in the Quadro, the qualified domestic
442
00:27:11,475 --> 00:27:17,445
relations order to, to distribute
the retirement accounts counts.
443
00:27:18,705 --> 00:27:21,584
I have seen where some
parents have said, listen.
444
00:27:22,335 --> 00:27:26,295
I know I've been away from
the home a lot working.
445
00:27:26,325 --> 00:27:30,795
I'm making lots of money, and you
are being the primary caregiver.
446
00:27:30,795 --> 00:27:34,545
And by the way, this has enough
nothing to do with gender.
447
00:27:35,325 --> 00:27:42,015
The, the primary caregiver might be
the, the mom or the dad, or there
448
00:27:42,015 --> 00:27:43,695
might be two moms or two dads.
449
00:27:43,785 --> 00:27:43,905
Mm-hmm.
450
00:27:44,625 --> 00:27:47,085
So nothing to do with gender.
451
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:52,260
But the parent who has been the high
earner throughout the marriage, I have
452
00:27:52,260 --> 00:27:57,750
seen where sometimes they've said, it's
really important to me that you have
453
00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:06,120
the freedom to keep putting the time
in to take care of our child, and they
454
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:15,090
will sign by agreement, sign a quadro
form that allocates more than 50%.
455
00:28:16,590 --> 00:28:18,179
Oh, the retirement account.
456
00:28:18,179 --> 00:28:18,360
So
457
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker: that makes sense to me.
458
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:25,110
And I can see, um, two people
who care for their child.
459
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:29,820
But then I think of how messy it
gets if you have to fight about it.
460
00:28:29,879 --> 00:28:31,439
If this becomes a fight mm-hmm.
461
00:28:31,439 --> 00:28:32,310
In court,
462
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:35,010
I mean that's,
463
00:28:35,010 --> 00:28:36,209
Speaker 2: that, that'd be tough.
464
00:28:36,689 --> 00:28:37,469
Oh, absolutely.
465
00:28:37,860 --> 00:28:40,919
Because it's what I advocate.
466
00:28:42,450 --> 00:28:48,000
When I speak at CLEs at law conferences,
or when I speak in podcasts or in my
467
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:57,750
books, I'm advocating for deviation,
yes, from the standard procedure.
468
00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:06,389
The standard way of distributing the, the
money, the assets, the time, all of that.
469
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,310
And you know, as well as I do, judges
don't like to be appealed and they
470
00:29:11,310 --> 00:29:13,050
don't like to be reversed on appeal.
471
00:29:13,055 --> 00:29:13,145
Mm-hmm.
472
00:29:15,420 --> 00:29:18,990
And the legal system changes very slowly.
473
00:29:20,460 --> 00:29:26,310
I have seen improvement,
but it's, it's usually.
474
00:29:28,110 --> 00:29:34,680
A judge will deviate from cookie
cutter when they've lived it, when
475
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,540
they have a child with special needs.
476
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:42,960
One of the best judges I ever had, cases
in front of cases that involved special
477
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:50,520
needs in family law disputes, had a
young adult son with a seizure disorder.
478
00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:53,430
He got it.
479
00:29:54,060 --> 00:29:54,480
Yeah.
480
00:29:56,610 --> 00:30:01,710
Speaker: And what we need is we need
judges to be able to, because we can't
481
00:30:01,710 --> 00:30:03,810
experience everything in life, right.
482
00:30:04,620 --> 00:30:10,409
So we need them to be open and empathetic
and to really, to really look at this.
483
00:30:10,409 --> 00:30:12,870
And we need strong advocates mm-hmm.
484
00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:20,159
Who are well versed to know where to turn,
um, when this kind of a case, you know.
485
00:30:21,835 --> 00:30:25,980
It comes to them, so, and, and so when
you practiced law, did you practice
486
00:30:25,980 --> 00:30:29,790
in this area, Peggy or geographic or
487
00:30:29,790 --> 00:30:30,450
Speaker 2: subject?
488
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:31,350
Subject?
489
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:31,710
This area?
490
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:32,910
Yes.
491
00:30:32,910 --> 00:30:35,610
I had, I primarily did family law.
492
00:30:35,970 --> 00:30:36,300
Yep.
493
00:30:37,470 --> 00:30:41,040
And so did you have a lot of
these cases that you fought for?
494
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,660
Well, the first special needs
divorce case I handled was my own.
495
00:30:46,905 --> 00:30:47,145
Right.
496
00:30:48,945 --> 00:30:52,635
And then after that, and I wrote
the law book for the American and
497
00:30:52,635 --> 00:31:01,305
Bar Association, um, word got around
locally where I was in the Midwest.
498
00:31:01,665 --> 00:31:01,755
Mm-hmm.
499
00:31:02,175 --> 00:31:06,855
And um, then it was like
the floodgates opening.
500
00:31:06,855 --> 00:31:12,225
So many people are in this situation
and they're just astonished.
501
00:31:13,095 --> 00:31:16,455
That it can be addressed in the divorce.
502
00:31:16,815 --> 00:31:17,205
Speaker: Yeah.
503
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:18,975
And and
504
00:31:18,975 --> 00:31:21,010
Speaker 2: should be, should be, yes.
505
00:31:21,015 --> 00:31:21,765
Yes, yes,
506
00:31:22,125 --> 00:31:22,455
Speaker: yes.
507
00:31:22,455 --> 00:31:23,085
So, yeah.
508
00:31:23,085 --> 00:31:27,555
So let's, let's maybe use this
podcast to alert people that you
509
00:31:27,555 --> 00:31:30,345
know, lawyers and the general public.
510
00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:33,179
That this is something
that is really important.
511
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,199
I, I'm telling, so we're going
over time, so I'm gonna need to
512
00:31:37,679 --> 00:31:40,469
put a pin in this, but I feel like
I kind of wanna have you back.
513
00:31:40,469 --> 00:31:43,770
I feel like I'm so grateful for
you, Peggy, because Thank you.
514
00:31:44,010 --> 00:31:49,980
You're making me a better mediator
and my brain is just moving right now.
515
00:31:49,980 --> 00:31:53,730
Thinking about that parenting plan
course that I had, thinking about
516
00:31:53,730 --> 00:31:56,370
wanting to address this more.
517
00:31:56,850 --> 00:31:57,480
Um.
518
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,470
With clients, maybe with the public.
519
00:32:00,470 --> 00:32:02,990
So I'd love to have you back.
520
00:32:02,990 --> 00:32:07,130
I, I'm gonna read that, I'm gonna
read your book and I'd like, I'm
521
00:32:07,130 --> 00:32:11,120
gonna have it in the show notes,
so I'll have a link and if, and how
522
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,550
can people find it if they're not?
523
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,460
Um, in my show notes at the moment,
524
00:32:17,570 --> 00:32:20,150
Speaker 2: the Parenting the Parent Guide.
525
00:32:20,564 --> 00:32:20,745
Yeah.
526
00:32:20,745 --> 00:32:23,595
Which is, uh, divorce and
the special needs Child.
527
00:32:23,655 --> 00:32:24,915
A guide for parents.
528
00:32:25,574 --> 00:32:28,455
Uh, Jessica Kingsley,
publishers out of London.
529
00:32:29,115 --> 00:32:30,135
That's on Amazon.
530
00:32:30,645 --> 00:32:31,034
Okay.
531
00:32:31,875 --> 00:32:36,705
And the law books, 'cause there was
a first edition and then a second
532
00:32:36,735 --> 00:32:43,695
edition in which I added, uh, a section
on special needs adults and divorce.
533
00:32:46,020 --> 00:32:48,720
And I could spend another
hour talking about that one.
534
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:48,780
Yeah.
535
00:32:49,140 --> 00:32:53,850
And crisis planning because of what
we learned going through COVID.
536
00:32:54,510 --> 00:32:54,840
Yep.
537
00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:00,210
Um, so you will want, you would
want to get the, the second
538
00:33:00,210 --> 00:33:01,980
edition that's also on Amazon.
539
00:33:02,250 --> 00:33:02,610
Okay.
540
00:33:02,610 --> 00:33:04,830
And that's the American Bar
Association is the publisher.
541
00:33:05,970 --> 00:33:06,210
All right.
542
00:33:06,270 --> 00:33:06,780
Awesome.
543
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,850
Speaker: Peggy, thank you so much for
being here and sharing your story.
544
00:33:11,850 --> 00:33:13,650
I really, really appreciate it.
545
00:33:13,980 --> 00:33:18,540
Speaker 2: Thank you for giving me the
opportunity to, uh, raise the issue and
546
00:33:18,540 --> 00:33:20,040
raise awareness with your listeners.
547
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:20,640
I appreciate it.
548
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:21,870
Speaker: Wonderful.
549
00:33:21,870 --> 00:33:22,860
Take good care.
550
00:33:23,070 --> 00:33:24,060
Speaker 2: Thanks, you too.