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Turning More Leads Into Appointments
Episode 330th August 2021 • Close The Loop • CallSource
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Kevin Dieny:

Hello, welcome to the Close The Loop podcast.

Kevin Dieny:

I'm joined by two of my cohosts, Matt and Ronn.

Kevin Dieny:

Today, we are going to be talking about turning more leads into appointments.

Kevin Dieny:

A very, I would say important topic for the handoff between marketing and sales.

Kevin Dieny:

I am joined by Matt Widmyer, the sales development manager at CallSource.

Kevin Dieny:

He oversees the ever-growing sales development division here while working

Kevin Dieny:

as a liaison between marketing and sales departments, whether there is an

Kevin Dieny:

individual or team operational gap, he will roll up his sleeves and go to work.

Kevin Dieny:

He is a problem solver.

Kevin Dieny:

He's a mentor and he's a coach all rolled into one.

Kevin Dieny:

Matt has a wife and daughter and loves all things outdoors.

Kevin Dieny:

So welcome, Matt.

Matt Widmyer:

Thanks for having me.

Kevin Dieny:

Also joined by Ronn Burner, an independent marketing strategy

Kevin Dieny:

consultant, applies his marketing MBA with his marketing automation experience

Kevin Dieny:

to help organizations design, execute, and measure their marketing strategies.

Kevin Dieny:

When he is not designing programs, Ronn's time is spent as an avid sports

Kevin Dieny:

and fitness fanatic, and can be spotted with his 11 year old son at Disneyland

Kevin Dieny:

on any given weekend, literally!

Kevin Dieny:

Welcome Ronn.

Ronn Burner:

Thanks guys.

Ronn Burner:

Happy to be back.

Kevin Dieny:

This is a really interesting topic.

Kevin Dieny:

This is probably Matt's bread and butter topic, because every business

Kevin Dieny:

is trying to transform leads are trying to transform, you know, the chance they

Kevin Dieny:

have with a perspective future customer, to turn them into an actual customer.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a couple steps in between, a lead and the sale.

Kevin Dieny:

Typically a business will have a couple of steps between that.

Kevin Dieny:

They have to get them there.

Kevin Dieny:

They have to show their offerings.

Kevin Dieny:

They have to even be in the availability of that when that lead wants to

Kevin Dieny:

do business with that business.

Kevin Dieny:

So when you're thinking about this conversation, I think that a lot of

Kevin Dieny:

this is going to come down to process.

Kevin Dieny:

So let's just.

Kevin Dieny:

Kick this off, I'll start with a little bit of defining all this,

Kevin Dieny:

so we are all on the same page.

Kevin Dieny:

Not every business may use the term leads.

Kevin Dieny:

We've run into this quite a bit.

Kevin Dieny:

Basically a lead is like, I said, it's a prospective, it could be

Kevin Dieny:

an entity, a person, a business, something think about your business

Kevin Dieny:

and who is not yet a customer.

Kevin Dieny:

But a lead in a sense is someone that you have an opportunity to

Kevin Dieny:

influence so they could be in your CRM, that could be in your store.

Kevin Dieny:

They could be standing outside your store.

Kevin Dieny:

They could be on the phone with you, things like that.

Kevin Dieny:

You have a moment to influence them.

Kevin Dieny:

Let's define that as, that's our lead, and between that person and

Kevin Dieny:

your ability to influence them.

Kevin Dieny:

And then get an appointment, they have decided to work with you,

Kevin Dieny:

but maybe not yet have purchased.

Kevin Dieny:

So between you can influence them, and now their coming to your store,

Kevin Dieny:

they're ordering, they're trying you out, they're putting on the shoes.

Kevin Dieny:

They're, setting a scheduled time to come in or for you to go there.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot that happens in between those two things.

Kevin Dieny:

So we'll get right into it.

Kevin Dieny:

I have a question and I'll pose it...

Kevin Dieny:

I'll kick it right over to you, Matt.

Kevin Dieny:

So here we go.

Kevin Dieny:

Why is turning leads into appointments so difficult?

Kevin Dieny:

Why is it so hard?

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah, sure.

Matt Widmyer:

It's something that just takes a lot.

Matt Widmyer:

There's a lot of trial and error involved, right?

Matt Widmyer:

It depends on the audience, obviously.

Matt Widmyer:

It depends on the person or people involved in the initiative.

Matt Widmyer:

It's time of day.

Matt Widmyer:

You have to think about like it's not, everything is on our watch.

Matt Widmyer:

It's on the customer's watch or the, in this case, the potential customers watch.

Matt Widmyer:

What is important to us isn't always just as important to the other person.

Matt Widmyer:

Right?

Matt Widmyer:

The whole point of getting an appointment is to get a sale and it

Matt Widmyer:

just really depends on where they're at.

Matt Widmyer:

The reason why it's so difficult, because there's just such a wide spectrum of

Matt Widmyer:

where they can be, in terms of how good of a fit they are versus how

Matt Widmyer:

interested if at all they are to hear about what it is that we have to say.

Kevin Dieny:

Let's break it down even a little bit more because

Kevin Dieny:

there's a couple elements of a lead that let's say makeup it's quality.

Kevin Dieny:

Marketing is the one generating leads, or let's say an agency

Kevin Dieny:

you're paying an agency as a small business to generate leads for you.

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe you're paying someone to come in and help do the marketing, right.

Kevin Dieny:

That lead gen or something like that.

Kevin Dieny:

So that's done prior to the lead getting there.

Kevin Dieny:

And so when leads show up for you to be able to influence them.

Kevin Dieny:

They come in all different types of quality.

Kevin Dieny:

Right?

Kevin Dieny:

So again, Matt, what are the things that make up, the quality that may

Kevin Dieny:

influence how difficult it is to turn that lead into an appointment?

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah.

Matt Widmyer:

So again, unless you're putting a gate on wherever they're submitting

Matt Widmyer:

your information, sometimes you get fake phone numbers, sometimes your,

Matt Widmyer:

get numbers and letters, transposed in whatever they're submitting.

Matt Widmyer:

So sometimes a lot of people don't like putting their real email address.

Matt Widmyer:

Maybe they're just strictly seeking information, not necessarily

Matt Widmyer:

inquiring about our services.

Matt Widmyer:

I'm going to stick with the original answer.

Matt Widmyer:

It was just the vast, realm that they can all fall within.

Matt Widmyer:

It's too ambiguous.

Matt Widmyer:

People, myself included, we have a tendency to just get through this form.

Matt Widmyer:

Let's just bypass these things, a blank field wherever I see it's not required.

Matt Widmyer:

And, unfortunately for other people, on the other side of things, it

Matt Widmyer:

makes it a little more difficult.

Matt Widmyer:

A little bit more research you have to do upfront just to verify, okay.

Matt Widmyer:

Is this actually a real person?

Matt Widmyer:

And if so, does it make sense to have a conversation about, something that we do?

Matt Widmyer:

The less of that you have, the more work you have to do, but there is definitely

Matt Widmyer:

concerns on the data side of things too.

Matt Widmyer:

We get people also who are inquiring about things you aren't necessarily a good fit.

Matt Widmyer:

Right?

Matt Widmyer:

You have people who are the example I always use is you have, guys trying to

Matt Widmyer:

track their girlfriend's cell phone.

Matt Widmyer:

That's not a good fit for what we do.

Matt Widmyer:

It doesn't matter what info they put there.

Matt Widmyer:

We're never going to do business with them.

Matt Widmyer:

It's just making sure, whatever they're seeking, is whatever we

Matt Widmyer:

were able to deliver to them, but it takes questions and fact finding

Matt Widmyer:

to be able to determine that.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

So I think that's a good segue into looking at it from, let's say the other

Kevin Dieny:

side of that, which is the marketing side, creating gated experiences or

Kevin Dieny:

creating an experience that makes it so that the prospective lead gets

Kevin Dieny:

what they need, but at the same time, we're getting enough information

Kevin Dieny:

to be able to follow up with them.

Kevin Dieny:

So Ronn you want to little talk a little bit about that side of the coin of

Kevin Dieny:

generating a quality lead to help with therefore later generating an appointment?

Kevin Dieny:

What goes into that?

Ronn Burner:

Absolutely.

Ronn Burner:

So I had formulated thoughts based on the conversation.

Ronn Burner:

And then you segwayed over here to this and now I have to really quickly process.

Ronn Burner:

You don't really know what level of this call is...

Ronn Burner:

at least in my mind.

Ronn Burner:

Right away I was thinking, okay, is this MQL or this SQL, and then again,

Ronn Burner:

in the email, which would be my bread and butter more so than this, because

Ronn Burner:

this is Matt's bread and butter, and we both cannot have the same bread, butter.

Ronn Burner:

But the email world, there's a goal.

Ronn Burner:

Each email in my mind has a singular goal.

Ronn Burner:

Right?

Ronn Burner:

And on a call, I feel like you don't want to overwhelm.

Ronn Burner:

If you're fortunate enough to get a conversation going, you don't want to

Ronn Burner:

overwhelm with, the information you just want to be as helpful as you can.

Ronn Burner:

But again, in my mind, is this cold calling people that simply

Ronn Burner:

came in because a form submission, which is a good one to start with.

Ronn Burner:

If it's cold enough where we haven't spoken to you previously, but you fill

Ronn Burner:

out a form and I know that your business operations there, because I've been

Ronn Burner:

there previously, the form fills are requesting to speak with sales or they're

Ronn Burner:

requesting to speak with somebody.

Ronn Burner:

So that's obviously a much more comfortable call right out of the

Ronn Burner:

gates because they're asking to be contacted versus if they download

Ronn Burner:

a piece of content, which is still good, there's still engagement.

Ronn Burner:

They're still interested.

Ronn Burner:

They're profiling themselves, by letting you know that this of all the

Ronn Burner:

options of content we have, this is the thing that they chose to download.

Ronn Burner:

So that call is not near as warm, but yet it's better than, a flat

Ronn Burner:

cold call from your database.

Ronn Burner:

And there's all kinds of problems with, outdated databases

Ronn Burner:

and things of that nature.

Ronn Burner:

I've even worked in a situation years ago where we had, through

Ronn Burner:

Salesforce, we had a third party, app that could create a calling list.

Ronn Burner:

So there was an autodialer.

Ronn Burner:

Dialing specific to the persona or specific to

Ronn Burner:

whatever it was that we wanted.

Ronn Burner:

And then we of course, had a script ready for that for our

Ronn Burner:

SDRs to make those outbound calls.

Ronn Burner:

I think the hardest part is just getting somebody on the phone and having a

Ronn Burner:

conversation, whether they're ice cold or warm it's just getting on the phone

Ronn Burner:

and trying to start the dialogue.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, that's really good.

Kevin Dieny:

The interesting thing you made me think about from that was when you put in

Kevin Dieny:

a lead into the system, someone else is going to take it from there, a

Kevin Dieny:

handoff between marketing and sales.

Kevin Dieny:

Right?

Kevin Dieny:

So when that handoff occurs, is marketing so totally and out of the clear now and

Kevin Dieny:

done, is their hands wiped, cleaned?

Kevin Dieny:

Not really.

Kevin Dieny:

The reason is, is when marketing hands over these leads, they need to know

Kevin Dieny:

from sales or from whoever it is next, the store, or the restaurant, or the

Kevin Dieny:

business, the rep, the tech, whoever it is, that is taking the reins from that

Kevin Dieny:

point, then, if it didn't turn into an appointment, why, what happened?

Kevin Dieny:

And is it like Matt said, is it because someone is just not a fit,

Kevin Dieny:

but they did everything right.

Kevin Dieny:

Is it that they did nothing right...

Kevin Dieny:

that information is fake and bogus?

Kevin Dieny:

What is it exactly?

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe also a little bit and beyond that would be, what was

Kevin Dieny:

their reason if they were a fit?

Kevin Dieny:

What was the reason for the objection and the loss?

Kevin Dieny:

Because at some point it does start to become a little blurry in between if

Kevin Dieny:

someone said, "Oh, the price is too high."

Kevin Dieny:

Is that marketing's fault?

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe, because at that point, was it positioned to be a much lower priced

Kevin Dieny:

item and then they get there and then all they get all the time is this

Kevin Dieny:

is way too overpriced or is it the rep trying to learn that objection

Kevin Dieny:

and handle that pricing objection so that they can translate that.

Kevin Dieny:

It does get a little blurry and a little gray sometimes.

Kevin Dieny:

And if that's a repeated offender, right?

Kevin Dieny:

An objection that comes up a lot.

Kevin Dieny:

I think it's both there.

Kevin Dieny:

It should be both teams looking at, okay, this is happening a lot.

Kevin Dieny:

Is there something both of us could do?

Kevin Dieny:

I wouldn't necessarily say, oh, it's all the sales or the front office duty to

Kevin Dieny:

manage that one objection all the time.

Kevin Dieny:

Especially if the marketing is being positioned in a way where it's like,

Kevin Dieny:

look at these amazing deals, 80% off.

Kevin Dieny:

And then when they come in, it's oh, that only applies on this one day.

Kevin Dieny:

That really frustrates it pisses off the leads.

Kevin Dieny:

Matt, the next leg of the journey is the influence on the lead.

Kevin Dieny:

So your leads are coming in of highly variable quality.

Kevin Dieny:

Just the nature of the beast.

Kevin Dieny:

How do...

Kevin Dieny:

businesses, small businesses, with maybe staff doing multiple

Kevin Dieny:

duties - how are they translating or turning leads into appointments?

Kevin Dieny:

What are some of the tips or suggestions you'd have there?

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah.

Matt Widmyer:

So kind of goes back to our last episode where we talked about feedback loops.

Matt Widmyer:

Because I feel like in the grand scheme a feedback loop is necessary.

Matt Widmyer:

One, it avoids that confrontational conversation between sales and marketing.

Matt Widmyer:

Sales, telling the marketing people, "These leads suck and then

Matt Widmyer:

marketing telling the salespeople, "No, you guys, suck, at closing

Matt Widmyer:

them, it kind of bridges the gap.

Matt Widmyer:

It's like, Hey, this wasn't the best lead because of A, B and C.

Matt Widmyer:

Now, if it's a one-off thing, it's a one off thing.

Matt Widmyer:

It happens.

Matt Widmyer:

Right?

Matt Widmyer:

But if it's repeated, like hey Kevin, here's what I'm noticing about every

Matt Widmyer:

single lead that's coming through.

Matt Widmyer:

We need to change something then that's a tweak that's homework

Matt Widmyer:

essentially for you to do on your side.

Matt Widmyer:

But if you're throwing out a different message than what the sales person's

Matt Widmyer:

communicating, when they actually get on the phone with the prospect

Matt Widmyer:

and that's a problem too, right?

Matt Widmyer:

Because our message isn't aligned with how we're talking to the customer.

Matt Widmyer:

That could be a sales training piece that we have on that end.

Matt Widmyer:

Maybe it's a newer rep or maybe they don't have the negotiating skill or

Matt Widmyer:

whatever they need further down the line.

Matt Widmyer:

Usually don't find out until post conversation until something is

Matt Widmyer:

definitively a yes or no, it's usually when it's easiest to determine.

Matt Widmyer:

This is why the data's so important too.

Matt Widmyer:

So you can look back at the ones, every single strikeout

Matt Widmyer:

and okay, why did this happen?

Matt Widmyer:

Why did this happen?

Matt Widmyer:

And then you'll start to see patterns forming, and being able to readily

Matt Widmyer:

adjust, and pivot as necessary there.

Matt Widmyer:

I would say that, most people, in terms of, how they're want to be contacted, what

Matt Widmyer:

time of day, preferred contact method.

Matt Widmyer:

If you're somebody fills out a form because they want to hop on the demo,

Matt Widmyer:

that doesn't mean they want to hop onto it right then and there when you call them.

Matt Widmyer:

If you're calling anybody at work, let's be respectful of their time.

Matt Widmyer:

And then, set something up for somewhere down the road.

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah, I would just say, perseverance.

Matt Widmyer:

I mean, they're coming to us.

Matt Widmyer:

It's not like we're knocking on their door.

Matt Widmyer:

In some cases we could be, but if marketing is generating the lead

Matt Widmyer:

they've to some degree, raised their hand a little bit, you know?

Kevin Dieny:

Yes.

Kevin Dieny:

The, the question about objections and codifying them is one way that

Kevin Dieny:

the feedback loop or the information or data can pass back to marketing.

Kevin Dieny:

And that does mean that there needs to be a landing place somewhere.

Kevin Dieny:

It's probably always mentioned like a CRM or something.

Kevin Dieny:

Having someone say walk over to the marketing team and be

Kevin Dieny:

like, I just got five calls and all were about this one thing.

Kevin Dieny:

It is helpful.

Kevin Dieny:

But in the grand scheme of things, there's a lot of marketing going on.

Kevin Dieny:

There could be a lot of things going on.

Kevin Dieny:

So it's much better usually to have that in a quantifiable, like a coded way.

Kevin Dieny:

So for instance, you have the lead, you work the lead.

Kevin Dieny:

And then when there's a positive thing that happens, an ideal outcome,

Kevin Dieny:

some kind of status or update is made in the system and everyone knows.

Kevin Dieny:

It's transparent when something unsatisfactory happens or

Kevin Dieny:

when something is delayed.

Kevin Dieny:

Let's say an objection is raised and the call ends and no appointment is set.

Kevin Dieny:

Putting that information in a system or database so that everyone can

Kevin Dieny:

see, okay, these are the leads I generated in the last month.

Kevin Dieny:

What was the main reason why they objected and that's one way you can

Kevin Dieny:

get around that, or at least marketing can find out and be like, okay, this

Kevin Dieny:

objection is happening quite a lot.

Kevin Dieny:

And obviously if we wait until the end of the month, maybe too late, but if it's

Kevin Dieny:

happening so much that it can look at it earlier than those are the kinds of

Kevin Dieny:

things where the manager may walk over to the other manager or the other team, and

Kevin Dieny:

be like, this is happening a lot either today or in the last couple of days.

Kevin Dieny:

And they can, they definitely want to be able to curb that

Kevin Dieny:

because waiting until the end of the month, it might be too late.

Kevin Dieny:

So Ronn, is there anything you wanted to add about that or that process or

Kevin Dieny:

working with any of that information or how the leads are being taken once

Kevin Dieny:

you've thrown them over the fence?

Ronn Burner:

I do think it's a little bit of echoing what you've said.

Ronn Burner:

You've each said.

Ronn Burner:

The first thing that came to mind is when there is obstacles...

Ronn Burner:

I write emails and I try to approach them from that angle.

Ronn Burner:

And the whole thing is a package deal for sure.

Ronn Burner:

But from the email standpoint, one, I said earlier, one email

Ronn Burner:

has one very specific goal.

Ronn Burner:

And part of that is pointing out maybe a problem that they did not

Ronn Burner:

know they had, because when they see that and then they read it and then

Ronn Burner:

they realize, yeah, that is true...

Ronn Burner:

I do have that problem, and this solves for that.

Ronn Burner:

So there's your perceived value, there's your value.

Ronn Burner:

And when you send it over to sales and they get on the call and they

Ronn Burner:

have their objections, those obstacles that they face by the sales marketing

Ronn Burner:

synergy, when that relationship is really solid and both teams trust

Ronn Burner:

each other, and they're working as a package deal together and as a team.

Ronn Burner:

When sales does indicate some common objections that they face on a specific

Ronn Burner:

product or whatever it is important for marketing to know, because that can be.

Ronn Burner:

If not solved, it could be remedied in a way that's helpful because you can

Ronn Burner:

address those things in the content, in the emails, because you've seen more

Ronn Burner:

human and more real when you're, when they always say speak about what you can

Ronn Burner:

offer and what you can do for them or what the value is not about the features.

Ronn Burner:

So the features of a new phone doesn't really do now, who cares, right?

Ronn Burner:

It's about what can they do for you?

Ronn Burner:

So that's the same thing with this, where email marketing will indicate

Ronn Burner:

the obstacles that they have, and this is how we address them

Ronn Burner:

because we're not hiding from them.

Ronn Burner:

We're straight up saying these are issues that we are aware

Ronn Burner:

of, but we are the solution.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

When you said objections, I was like, oh yeah, I wanted to ask Matt about this.

Kevin Dieny:

So I'm going off what Ronn was saying about how the marketing side is utilizing

Kevin Dieny:

objections to change its messaging.

Kevin Dieny:

How are, let's say call handlers, CSRs, SDRs, sales, anyone who's

Kevin Dieny:

turning leads into appointments...

Kevin Dieny:

How are those teams preparing for handling objections?

Kevin Dieny:

Is this something where, as a manager, you hand them, let's say

Kevin Dieny:

a sheet and you're like, here's some of the top five objections go

Kevin Dieny:

practice how you'd handle these.

Kevin Dieny:

Or does it come from mentoring?

Kevin Dieny:

Is it come from learn it by dealing with it or when they come to you, how

Kevin Dieny:

are objections being prepared for so that when they get on the call or when

Kevin Dieny:

they get into handling, let's say a lead and they do have the ability to

Kevin Dieny:

influence them that they're able to handle and manage those objections?

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah, sure.

Matt Widmyer:

Objections are not a one size fits all thing.

Matt Widmyer:

There's an array of them.

Matt Widmyer:

And it really depends on what the product or service you're offering is.

Matt Widmyer:

Some of the ones that the common ones that we get are I'm too busy

Matt Widmyer:

or you just got I'm in a meeting or whatever, half the time, those are

Matt Widmyer:

blow offs anyway, but, there's very specific ways we handle those in house.

Matt Widmyer:

The training for those comes in the initial, when somebody is brand new,

Matt Widmyer:

we'll go over a lot of those things.

Matt Widmyer:

We have weekly meetings too, and that's one of the discussion points and they're

Matt Widmyer:

like, Hey, what are we running into?

Matt Widmyer:

Here's the thing is I also measure that too, from a CRM perspective.

Matt Widmyer:

So I see the objections that are coming through and then we're able to address

Matt Widmyer:

like, Hey, it looks like you're running into this a lot with this, especially you

Matt Widmyer:

want to keep an eye on them a lot closer, especially if it's a newer initiative

Matt Widmyer:

or a new thing that's happening.

Matt Widmyer:

But, if it's a targeted, maybe marketing campaign or something like that we want

Matt Widmyer:

to put the microscope under those and the anecdotal stuff is always good too

Matt Widmyer:

like, Hey, this is why this is happening.

Matt Widmyer:

And the little explanation beyond what's in the CRM, you don't want to rely

Matt Widmyer:

complete 100% of what's on the CRM because it takes the human element out of it.

Matt Widmyer:

There are specific, objections that we, I mean, you could keep it to probably two

Matt Widmyer:

hands, all the main ones that we hear.

Matt Widmyer:

We have a one sheet with kind of addresses, like the best

Matt Widmyer:

ways to handle all those.

Kevin Dieny:

Right on!

Kevin Dieny:

The next questions I have for everybody is on personalization.

Kevin Dieny:

Now marketing understands this as we tailor, the message,

Kevin Dieny:

the content, the delivery, the timing, the product, everything.

Kevin Dieny:

Everything's gotta be an alignment.

Kevin Dieny:

It's not...

Kevin Dieny:

quite so laser focus, because that means the amount of content

Kevin Dieny:

that marketing needs is we always do say it's like a tidal wave.

Kevin Dieny:

It's overwhelming when you get down to one-to-one level of marketing is

Kevin Dieny:

an extreme level of personalization.

Kevin Dieny:

But just in general, personalization in marketing is similar to how

Kevin Dieny:

personalization would be in working sales or in working appointments setting.

Kevin Dieny:

So, Ronn, do you want to touch on the marketing side of personalization

Kevin Dieny:

and what that looks like briefly?

Ronn Burner:

Yeah.

Ronn Burner:

What it really looks like is you want to remove the computer element

Ronn Burner:

from things and try to seem like a human to human conversation.

Ronn Burner:

I think that the goal always as a consumer, as well as a marketer, I

Ronn Burner:

want the human element and the human touch to be there, to let them know.

Ronn Burner:

Again, sales is a dirty word.

Ronn Burner:

When we as consumers...

Ronn Burner:

feel like we're being pitched something or sold something.

Ronn Burner:

But when a relationship is formed, all of a sudden, now we changed the game

Ronn Burner:

and it's a rapport and there's a trust.

Ronn Burner:

And when there's some level of honesty and some level of belief,

Ronn Burner:

now you have me listening.

Ronn Burner:

And that is really half the battle right there.

Ronn Burner:

So I believe personalization is essential frankly.

Ronn Burner:

Of course, in the email marketing world it certainly is.

Ronn Burner:

Just because I want, and even my style of writing, when I write things, I

Ronn Burner:

like it to be a level of conversation, a level of humor, it just has a

Ronn Burner:

human feel and a human touch to it.

Ronn Burner:

The one-to-one relationship that's the holy grail in marketing is we want to

Ronn Burner:

speak to every single person exactly as who they are very individually.

Ronn Burner:

That is also a bridge too far for most organizations.

Ronn Burner:

But that doesn't mean that you can't do the basic things, even

Ronn Burner:

like in subject lines, you can, you can have their first name.

Ronn Burner:

That's why database integrity is, is huge because the more clean your

Ronn Burner:

database is, which also applies to the calls certainly but, it applies

Ronn Burner:

to the personalization on landing pages, the personalization on emails.

Ronn Burner:

You can even personalize nowadays with the automation, capabilities

Ronn Burner:

you can personalize in the copy, very specific to previous conversations

Ronn Burner:

that has taken place if we so choose.

Ronn Burner:

So there's a lot of elements and a lot of, levels of personalization.

Ronn Burner:

Really, close the gap of I'm being sold, something I'm being pitched something

Ronn Burner:

versus they get me, they know what I want, they know what I'm interested in.

Ronn Burner:

And they're speaking to me only about that one thing.

Ronn Burner:

And that's that kind of focus and that kind of rapport, is really,

Ronn Burner:

really important too for the bottom line at the end of the day.

Kevin Dieny:

I love that.

Kevin Dieny:

Explain it like I'm five, try to pretend like you're not

Kevin Dieny:

a robot sending the emails.

Kevin Dieny:

That was a great way to know that that's honestly like how you would explain it

Kevin Dieny:

to people who don't quite understand, maybe the machinations going on behind it.

Kevin Dieny:

Because it is all probably automated things happening at the

Kevin Dieny:

scale you need to personalize.

Kevin Dieny:

It kind of is coming from like an automated system or robot or whatever.

Ronn Burner:

Well, this, this is an indication that we've worked together

Ronn Burner:

previously because I have said talk to me like I'm in third grade many,

Ronn Burner:

many, many times, but I did not today where you just thought I did.

Kevin Dieny:

It was brilliant.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay, Matt, this side of sales now to on personalizing the conversation,

Kevin Dieny:

the act of turning the lead and getting that appointment out of it,

Kevin Dieny:

building rapport, that relationship building, what does that look like?

Kevin Dieny:

And how does that function effectively?

Kevin Dieny:

On the sales side.

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah, so it's the same, it's a lot is the same.

Matt Widmyer:

We have things that we need to know to be able to specifically

Matt Widmyer:

speak to a certain type of person.

Matt Widmyer:

If you have an office manager versus an owner, those are gonna

Matt Widmyer:

be two different conversations.

Matt Widmyer:

You have to look at three different elements, three primary elements.

Matt Widmyer:

Is the demographic of the person, right?

Matt Widmyer:

What's your role?

Matt Widmyer:

What's your rank in the company?

Matt Widmyer:

What's their title?

Matt Widmyer:

What's their management level.

Matt Widmyer:

The firmographic information, like what type of company is it?

Matt Widmyer:

What industry, how big the company is, in terms of like how many employees.

Matt Widmyer:

And, anything else we could learn about the company and then the third

Matt Widmyer:

would be the marketing interaction or any other sales interaction we've

Matt Widmyer:

had in the past with that company or that person, specifically, cause

Matt Widmyer:

we can use that and then arm us for a higher quality conversation.

Matt Widmyer:

So I think that...

Matt Widmyer:

you roll those three things into one and you have a pretty one

Matt Widmyer:

to one intelligent conversation.

Matt Widmyer:

We can make 500 calls a day, but I guarantee you, we aren't doing it

Matt Widmyer:

going into that level of phone calls.

Matt Widmyer:

Right?

Matt Widmyer:

We can go and learn about their favorite color and what they like to

Matt Widmyer:

do on weekends and all that stuff.

Matt Widmyer:

I don't think a lot of that stuff is then you're on the other side of spectrum.

Matt Widmyer:

You're only making 10 calls a day, but you're having awesome conversations if you

Matt Widmyer:

get a hold of the person, but, there's a fine medium between quality and quantity.

Matt Widmyer:

I feel like, knowing just enough to have a very personal conversation,

Matt Widmyer:

versus generic is part of the recipe of call quotas and stuff like that

Matt Widmyer:

and conversations on a daily basis.

Matt Widmyer:

We take a lot of that stuff into account too.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay, I'm gonna throw it right back to you, Matt, you

Kevin Dieny:

basically described a lot about the outbound preparation that

Kevin Dieny:

may go into personalizing calls.

Kevin Dieny:

What about the inbound side?

Kevin Dieny:

Let's say you're a smaller business that doesn't really do an outbound

Kevin Dieny:

and you take a lot of more inbound.

Kevin Dieny:

So you're more like a reception.

Kevin Dieny:

You're more like a call handler...

Kevin Dieny:

that's just picking up the phone when it rings.

Kevin Dieny:

What kind of preparation can you do to prepare for the inbound side?

Matt Widmyer:

So we use, we have a couple of data enhancement tools, in house.

Matt Widmyer:

So those are always helpful.

Matt Widmyer:

They give us basically fill in the blank on everything.

Matt Widmyer:

For smaller companies probably wouldn't be able to afford something like

Matt Widmyer:

that, or they might not have to have it in their budget at that point.

Matt Widmyer:

So I think, the internet's your best friend in this.

Matt Widmyer:

I would usually start if it's somebody brand new, the two primary places

Matt Widmyer:

I go is their company website.

Matt Widmyer:

If they hopefully they'll have one, if they don't, it's

Matt Widmyer:

already a little bit trickier.

Matt Widmyer:

Whether or not they have a website, also their LinkedIn is also, found to

Matt Widmyer:

be a pretty helpful, thing to learn a little bit more about them and their

Matt Widmyer:

employment history and all that stuff.

Matt Widmyer:

And their role that they're currently in.

Matt Widmyer:

If a company website has an about us tab or something like that, and they

Matt Widmyer:

have pictures of everybody, I always like to see who it is I'm talking to or

Matt Widmyer:

what their, some of their interests are.

Matt Widmyer:

Sometimes we'll share interests and it makes it so much of an easier

Matt Widmyer:

conversation, not the cheesy way.

Matt Widmyer:

Like, Hey, I see you're an Eagles fan.

Matt Widmyer:

And even though I'm not an Eagles fan, I'm going to say I am so,

Matt Widmyer:

um, because I'm trying to sell you something, it's just a, if you're not

Matt Widmyer:

stay away from it, but, yeah, there could be something there or, or not.

Matt Widmyer:

So I think just the initial research phase to two main places I go to, the

Matt Widmyer:

company website, as well as LinkedIn.

Kevin Dieny:

I think it, it makes it really difficult for our businesses

Kevin Dieny:

who are maybe a little less B2B and more B to C because they're...

Kevin Dieny:

they may not want to step over the boundary of that personal privacy

Kevin Dieny:

line, but there is sort of, let's say personas or groupings of people

Kevin Dieny:

that may be associated with your business more often than not.

Kevin Dieny:

For what you just laid out, it was, we're trying to get those basic, persona level

Kevin Dieny:

things that you're trying to identify.

Kevin Dieny:

What kind of businesses, this, where are they in the business?

Kevin Dieny:

Answering those fundamentals guides, the conversation in

Kevin Dieny:

very different pivotal ways.

Kevin Dieny:

And because you need those bits of information, you either ask it

Kevin Dieny:

or you try to infer it or you try to go to their website, you try to

Kevin Dieny:

get it any way you possibly can.

Kevin Dieny:

So knowing, okay, what is the basic qualifying questions I got to

Kevin Dieny:

know on this call to move forward?

Kevin Dieny:

Is it okay or is this the person bringing them in?

Kevin Dieny:

Is this the person showing up for the appointment?

Kevin Dieny:

Is this the person getting the healthcare service offer or

Kevin Dieny:

product that we're selling, knowing how it's going to be used?

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot of maybe qualifying questions that come up.

Kevin Dieny:

Sometimes they're handled in persona creation.

Kevin Dieny:

So, Ronn, I figured you could give us another, like I'm five example of what

Kevin Dieny:

a personas are so you can explain that?

Ronn Burner:

I can, I just drifted away because when you mentioned initial

Ronn Burner:

inbound calls and then Matt was going to their LinkedIn, I was like, oh, this

Ronn Burner:

is very specific to lead generation.

Ronn Burner:

Like you are absolutely trying to acquire field data because when I'm

Ronn Burner:

calling under armor or Nike, or when.

Ronn Burner:

For information on a product, I'm like...

Ronn Burner:

I'm not giving, they don't know anything about me, I'm not telling them anything.

Ronn Burner:

So it's a use case, very specific to lead generation organizations.

Ronn Burner:

The persona element...

Ronn Burner:

Yeah.

Ronn Burner:

So personas can absolutely, it's an almost, uh, a use case business to

Ronn Burner:

business situation or not B2B, but organization to organization, depending

Ronn Burner:

on what, cause you could segment and use personas very specific to things like,

Ronn Burner:

department that they work in, job title, from the sales perspective, you could

Ronn Burner:

do it thinking of it in terms of highly engaged, very warm, ice cold, things of

Ronn Burner:

that nature, or some sort of a scoring in automation world scoring is a common thing

Ronn Burner:

based on the sort of engagement that you can receive through email correspondence,

Ronn Burner:

social media website, tracking form submissions, events attended.

Ronn Burner:

So the persona is leading to how you approach people well, and to speak to

Ronn Burner:

them on the way that we were talking about earlier on the personalized levels.

Ronn Burner:

So the persona is what enables you to know how to speak to them in a way

Ronn Burner:

that's closer to who they really are rather than a very generic situation.

Ronn Burner:

That doesn't make sense.

Ronn Burner:

Having a database and having the ability to put people in there and having

Ronn Burner:

the fields that are able to organize them into the different buckets, I

Ronn Burner:

call them segments that you want.

Ronn Burner:

It's important for sure.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah, Matt, back to you on this.

Kevin Dieny:

What kind of qualifying stuff do you put in place to...

Kevin Dieny:

get someone to actually show up to an appointment.

Kevin Dieny:

I think setting an appointment is one set of skills.

Kevin Dieny:

It's phone conversation management, asking the right questions, it's

Kevin Dieny:

being prepared, personalizing it.

Kevin Dieny:

But how do you get someone to show up to an appointment?

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah.

Matt Widmyer:

So, I mean, you have to answer the question.

Matt Widmyer:

They're not asking, which is why is it worth my time to be on the phone with you?

Matt Widmyer:

There's two layers, right?

Matt Widmyer:

That you alluded to earlier, there's the basic qualifying information and

Matt Widmyer:

stuff that needs to go in the CRM.

Matt Widmyer:

We actually here we'll gate the SDRs from creating opportunities unless

Matt Widmyer:

they have the requirements, pretty basic requirements, but things that

Matt Widmyer:

we should know about people moving forward and we have that broken down

Matt Widmyer:

based on what vertical they fall in to.

Matt Widmyer:

Those are the basic qualifications.

Matt Widmyer:

Then the other follow up questions, are mostly around current situation

Matt Widmyer:

and that's mostly based on some, whatever product or service they're

Matt Widmyer:

inquiring about or we're pitching to them on the other side of things.

Matt Widmyer:

We need to know that it makes sense for the person, to at least learn more.

Matt Widmyer:

They have to know what they're getting themselves into.

Matt Widmyer:

So there's an agenda on the meeting invite.

Matt Widmyer:

It could not be more crystal clear, obviously they don't, they

Matt Widmyer:

aren't forced to do anything.

Matt Widmyer:

But it's, they have to carve out the dedicated time.

Matt Widmyer:

We let them know that you're going to be in front of a computer.

Matt Widmyer:

We're probably going to be sharing our screen with you.

Matt Widmyer:

So, being on a roof or in a crawlspace, probably isn't the best

Matt Widmyer:

place to take one of these from.

Matt Widmyer:

Really understanding their situation.

Matt Widmyer:

So if we're talking to them about their online reviews, we're going to

Matt Widmyer:

want to see, what their process is in terms of acquiring some of those

Matt Widmyer:

and what their current ranking is, how many stars they have, how many

Matt Widmyer:

reviews they got in the last 30 days.

Matt Widmyer:

A lot of that stuff can be done before we even pick up the phone and call

Matt Widmyer:

them and get on the phone with a demo.

Matt Widmyer:

But the things that we're basically trying to...

Matt Widmyer:

solve everything we can not initially research before we

Matt Widmyer:

get on the phone with them.

Matt Widmyer:

And then we're just asking the questions to fill in the gap.

Matt Widmyer:

And if somebody gives you a really bland one word answer or something

Matt Widmyer:

like that, never a bad idea just to ask a followup question.

Matt Widmyer:

Well, what do you mean by that?

Matt Widmyer:

Or, can you tell me a little bit more about that, always good questions to ask?

Matt Widmyer:

Because it makes it sound A like your interest in what they have to talk about.

Matt Widmyer:

And B people love talking about themselves and their own businesses.

Matt Widmyer:

The more they can talk compared to how much you're talking as

Matt Widmyer:

I'm talking a lot right now, it makes a better sales conversation.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

I feel like we've only cut the tip of the iceberg off on this conversation.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot that goes into developing leads into appointments, but I think

Kevin Dieny:

we have touched on some of the more poignant things that will help you

Kevin Dieny:

turn more leads into appointments, which is getting your marketing

Kevin Dieny:

the information it needs to create better leads that go into the system.

Kevin Dieny:

And it does require a feedback loop.

Kevin Dieny:

They're not just going to magically know what is going on.

Kevin Dieny:

If there's no feedback loop telling marketing, here's the objections.

Kevin Dieny:

Here's where the most leads are ending up there.

Kevin Dieny:

They're asking for this, something that we don't sell that are asking to

Kevin Dieny:

track their girlfriends or boyfriends or whatever, we don't do that.

Kevin Dieny:

It's a misalignment that marketing needs to know that.

Kevin Dieny:

And then the next leg of that is okay, well, someone's following up.

Kevin Dieny:

Someone's going to go after this there's research that has to be done.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a personalization that you want to have in that phone call, which has a

Kevin Dieny:

huge requirement on research, on preparing when you get to the conversational

Kevin Dieny:

component of it, it's knowing how to handle objections, which is probably

Kevin Dieny:

going to be on almost every call.

Kevin Dieny:

Unless you get someone who's just like, I'm ready to buy.

Kevin Dieny:

Stop talking so I can buy, there's a pretty rare probably to run into that,

Kevin Dieny:

but some people just know what they want.

Kevin Dieny:

We do have it.

Kevin Dieny:

We call it a one call close and things like that can happen.

Kevin Dieny:

And then the last leg of this is like, okay, you get an appointment, but what

Kevin Dieny:

if you're setting appointments and no one shows up, that's a problem.

Kevin Dieny:

So you mentioned a lot of really, really good things.

Kevin Dieny:

Keeping the conversation not one sided, making sure that it's crystal

Kevin Dieny:

clear and expectations are set, what's required that the person on

Kevin Dieny:

the other end knows exactly what to expect, what you're going to follow up.

Kevin Dieny:

Who's you know, as the ball in their court, is it in yours?

Kevin Dieny:

What they should be bringing.

Kevin Dieny:

If you're a dentist, it's like, okay you got to bring insurance show up at this

Kevin Dieny:

point, at this time for your appointment.

Kevin Dieny:

And if you show up a little early, then you can fill out some forms.

Kevin Dieny:

Bunch of stuff sometimes that goes into this.

Kevin Dieny:

At the end of the day, making it so that they're really prepared, helps

Kevin Dieny:

get more appointments to show up.

Kevin Dieny:

So therefore you're getting better leads.

Kevin Dieny:

Those leads are then turning into more appointments and more of

Kevin Dieny:

those appointments are showing up.

Kevin Dieny:

That's the summary that I've gotten from all of this.

Kevin Dieny:

Was there anything you wanted to add Ronn?

Ronn Burner:

You summed that up very well, the way I look at it is they're

Ronn Burner:

calling or you're calling them or they're reaching out to you because they have

Ronn Burner:

a problem or a question or a desire.

Ronn Burner:

They just want something.

Ronn Burner:

And our job, whether it's on the phones, or emails, on the website,

Ronn Burner:

no matter what it is, our answer to that is we're the solution.

Ronn Burner:

We have the answer to your question.

Ronn Burner:

We have what you want, basically, we're the solution to whatever

Ronn Burner:

it is you need and, talk to us and we'll help you get there.

Kevin Dieny:

Alright Matt, was there anything else that

Kevin Dieny:

you wanted to add to this?

Kevin Dieny:

I know there's a lot here, but is there anything else that you're like,

Kevin Dieny:

I got to mention this before the end?

Matt Widmyer:

Yeah.

Matt Widmyer:

There's definitely a lot.

Matt Widmyer:

This could probably be its own separate podcast.

Matt Widmyer:

We can just go down that rabbit hole, but I think at the end of

Matt Widmyer:

the day, you did sum it up nicely.

Matt Widmyer:

I think that, especially to get people, to show up for these appointments that

Matt Widmyer:

the value needs to be built and, the value is built by it becoming relevant to them.

Matt Widmyer:

And it's only become relevant to them if you ask questions and probe what

Matt Widmyer:

their current situation is and why it would be beneficial for them to exchange

Matt Widmyer:

15 to 20 minutes of their time for something that could end up helping

Matt Widmyer:

them a lot from an ROI perspective.

Matt Widmyer:

One of the things that we did, glaze over and I don't think we put enough or

Matt Widmyer:

enough importance into it was, urgency.

Matt Widmyer:

So someone's raising their hand because they need help with

Matt Widmyer:

something, response time is critical.

Matt Widmyer:

It's probably the most important thing if somebody is inquiring, because

Matt Widmyer:

there's so much data, on the internet and they've done a lot of research

Matt Widmyer:

on response rate versus, if the appointment ends up happening and beyond.

Matt Widmyer:

The longer you wait, the less likely they are to do business with you, period.

Matt Widmyer:

They're going to find someone else somewhat similar that can take

Matt Widmyer:

care of most of the stuff, even if it's, not all the same stuff, just

Matt Widmyer:

because, we've made them feel like they weren't important because we're

Matt Widmyer:

taking our time, getting back to him.

Matt Widmyer:

It's not, it was critical.

Matt Widmyer:

Now somebody fills out a form at 2:00 AM.

Matt Widmyer:

They probably aren't expecting a call five minutes later or something like that.

Matt Widmyer:

But if it's like during regular business hours, those things will always take

Matt Widmyer:

priority over anything, outbound that we're working, just because there

Matt Widmyer:

is such a sense of urgency there.

Matt Widmyer:

So I did want to emphasize that was the one piece I felt like that fell a little

Matt Widmyer:

bit short on during the initial questions.

Kevin Dieny:

Yeah.

Kevin Dieny:

Good catch.

Kevin Dieny:

That is really huge.

Kevin Dieny:

I can't tell you how many times I've called someplace.

Kevin Dieny:

Calling by the way is a very intimate, very direct, very immediate

Kevin Dieny:

real-time communication method.

Kevin Dieny:

You expect when you're calling, you want to get something resolved quickly and

Kevin Dieny:

you're sending an email it's much more, patient of a response your expecting.

Kevin Dieny:

When you're calling a business, they don't pick up.

Kevin Dieny:

The thing you're going to do is call the next one.

Kevin Dieny:

Not picking up a call is dire.

Kevin Dieny:

The time to response or time to, conversation or time to

Kevin Dieny:

following up is pretty huge.

Kevin Dieny:

If that's being caused by the research step, then maybe there's an issue,

Kevin Dieny:

but making sure you do have a more personalized conversation is also key.

Kevin Dieny:

So balancing all of this, like you said, maybe a whole entire podcast dedicated

Kevin Dieny:

to turning leads into appointments.

Kevin Dieny:

So that's it for this episode.

Kevin Dieny:

Big takeaways are that you got to focus on controlling as much as you can control.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot, you cannot control.

Kevin Dieny:

You have teams of people on the phone.

Kevin Dieny:

All of them are going to be different.

Kevin Dieny:

You have leads with a wide spectrum of quality coming in at all different

Kevin Dieny:

times, even 2:00 AM, like you said, and it could be the case.

Kevin Dieny:

Doing the steps you can, that are important, like preparing and getting

Kevin Dieny:

the process down and stuff like that will help turn more leads into appointments.

Kevin Dieny:

So appreciate your time, everybody.

Kevin Dieny:

Gentlemen, thank you for this really great insight into this

Kevin Dieny:

topic and really appreciate it.

Kevin Dieny:

Thank you.

Matt Widmyer:

Absolutely.

Matt Widmyer:

Thanks for having us again.

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