Transcripts
Hello, welcome to the Close The Loop podcast.
Kevin Dieny:I'm joined by two of my cohosts, Matt and Ronn.
Kevin Dieny:Today, we are going to be talking about turning more leads into appointments.
Kevin Dieny:A very, I would say important topic for the handoff between marketing and sales.
Kevin Dieny:I am joined by Matt Widmyer, the sales development manager at CallSource.
Kevin Dieny:He oversees the ever-growing sales development division here while working
Kevin Dieny:as a liaison between marketing and sales departments, whether there is an
Kevin Dieny:individual or team operational gap, he will roll up his sleeves and go to work.
Kevin Dieny:He is a problem solver.
Kevin Dieny:He's a mentor and he's a coach all rolled into one.
Kevin Dieny:Matt has a wife and daughter and loves all things outdoors.
Kevin Dieny:So welcome, Matt.
Matt Widmyer:Thanks for having me.
Kevin Dieny:Also joined by Ronn Burner, an independent marketing strategy
Kevin Dieny:consultant, applies his marketing MBA with his marketing automation experience
Kevin Dieny:to help organizations design, execute, and measure their marketing strategies.
Kevin Dieny:When he is not designing programs, Ronn's time is spent as an avid sports
Kevin Dieny:and fitness fanatic, and can be spotted with his 11 year old son at Disneyland
Kevin Dieny:on any given weekend, literally!
Kevin Dieny:Welcome Ronn.
Ronn Burner:Thanks guys.
Ronn Burner:Happy to be back.
Kevin Dieny:This is a really interesting topic.
Kevin Dieny:This is probably Matt's bread and butter topic, because every business
Kevin Dieny:is trying to transform leads are trying to transform, you know, the chance they
Kevin Dieny:have with a perspective future customer, to turn them into an actual customer.
Kevin Dieny:There's a couple steps in between, a lead and the sale.
Kevin Dieny:Typically a business will have a couple of steps between that.
Kevin Dieny:They have to get them there.
Kevin Dieny:They have to show their offerings.
Kevin Dieny:They have to even be in the availability of that when that lead wants to
Kevin Dieny:do business with that business.
Kevin Dieny:So when you're thinking about this conversation, I think that a lot of
Kevin Dieny:this is going to come down to process.
Kevin Dieny:So let's just.
Kevin Dieny:Kick this off, I'll start with a little bit of defining all this,
Kevin Dieny:so we are all on the same page.
Kevin Dieny:Not every business may use the term leads.
Kevin Dieny:We've run into this quite a bit.
Kevin Dieny:Basically a lead is like, I said, it's a prospective, it could be
Kevin Dieny:an entity, a person, a business, something think about your business
Kevin Dieny:and who is not yet a customer.
Kevin Dieny:But a lead in a sense is someone that you have an opportunity to
Kevin Dieny:influence so they could be in your CRM, that could be in your store.
Kevin Dieny:They could be standing outside your store.
Kevin Dieny:They could be on the phone with you, things like that.
Kevin Dieny:You have a moment to influence them.
Kevin Dieny:Let's define that as, that's our lead, and between that person and
Kevin Dieny:your ability to influence them.
Kevin Dieny:And then get an appointment, they have decided to work with you,
Kevin Dieny:but maybe not yet have purchased.
Kevin Dieny:So between you can influence them, and now their coming to your store,
Kevin Dieny:they're ordering, they're trying you out, they're putting on the shoes.
Kevin Dieny:They're, setting a scheduled time to come in or for you to go there.
Kevin Dieny:There's a lot that happens in between those two things.
Kevin Dieny:So we'll get right into it.
Kevin Dieny:I have a question and I'll pose it...
Kevin Dieny:I'll kick it right over to you, Matt.
Kevin Dieny:So here we go.
Kevin Dieny:Why is turning leads into appointments so difficult?
Kevin Dieny:Why is it so hard?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah, sure.
Matt Widmyer:It's something that just takes a lot.
Matt Widmyer:There's a lot of trial and error involved, right?
Matt Widmyer:It depends on the audience, obviously.
Matt Widmyer:It depends on the person or people involved in the initiative.
Matt Widmyer:It's time of day.
Matt Widmyer:You have to think about like it's not, everything is on our watch.
Matt Widmyer:It's on the customer's watch or the, in this case, the potential customers watch.
Matt Widmyer:What is important to us isn't always just as important to the other person.
Matt Widmyer:Right?
Matt Widmyer:The whole point of getting an appointment is to get a sale and it
Matt Widmyer:just really depends on where they're at.
Matt Widmyer:The reason why it's so difficult, because there's just such a wide spectrum of
Matt Widmyer:where they can be, in terms of how good of a fit they are versus how
Matt Widmyer:interested if at all they are to hear about what it is that we have to say.
Kevin Dieny:Let's break it down even a little bit more because
Kevin Dieny:there's a couple elements of a lead that let's say makeup it's quality.
Kevin Dieny:Marketing is the one generating leads, or let's say an agency
Kevin Dieny:you're paying an agency as a small business to generate leads for you.
Kevin Dieny:Maybe you're paying someone to come in and help do the marketing, right.
Kevin Dieny:That lead gen or something like that.
Kevin Dieny:So that's done prior to the lead getting there.
Kevin Dieny:And so when leads show up for you to be able to influence them.
Kevin Dieny:They come in all different types of quality.
Kevin Dieny:Right?
Kevin Dieny:So again, Matt, what are the things that make up, the quality that may
Kevin Dieny:influence how difficult it is to turn that lead into an appointment?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah.
Matt Widmyer:So again, unless you're putting a gate on wherever they're submitting
Matt Widmyer:your information, sometimes you get fake phone numbers, sometimes your,
Matt Widmyer:get numbers and letters, transposed in whatever they're submitting.
Matt Widmyer:So sometimes a lot of people don't like putting their real email address.
Matt Widmyer:Maybe they're just strictly seeking information, not necessarily
Matt Widmyer:inquiring about our services.
Matt Widmyer:I'm going to stick with the original answer.
Matt Widmyer:It was just the vast, realm that they can all fall within.
Matt Widmyer:It's too ambiguous.
Matt Widmyer:People, myself included, we have a tendency to just get through this form.
Matt Widmyer:Let's just bypass these things, a blank field wherever I see it's not required.
Matt Widmyer:And, unfortunately for other people, on the other side of things, it
Matt Widmyer:makes it a little more difficult.
Matt Widmyer:A little bit more research you have to do upfront just to verify, okay.
Matt Widmyer:Is this actually a real person?
Matt Widmyer:And if so, does it make sense to have a conversation about, something that we do?
Matt Widmyer:The less of that you have, the more work you have to do, but there is definitely
Matt Widmyer:concerns on the data side of things too.
Matt Widmyer:We get people also who are inquiring about things you aren't necessarily a good fit.
Matt Widmyer:Right?
Matt Widmyer:You have people who are the example I always use is you have, guys trying to
Matt Widmyer:track their girlfriend's cell phone.
Matt Widmyer:That's not a good fit for what we do.
Matt Widmyer:It doesn't matter what info they put there.
Matt Widmyer:We're never going to do business with them.
Matt Widmyer:It's just making sure, whatever they're seeking, is whatever we
Matt Widmyer:were able to deliver to them, but it takes questions and fact finding
Matt Widmyer:to be able to determine that.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:So I think that's a good segue into looking at it from, let's say the other
Kevin Dieny:side of that, which is the marketing side, creating gated experiences or
Kevin Dieny:creating an experience that makes it so that the prospective lead gets
Kevin Dieny:what they need, but at the same time, we're getting enough information
Kevin Dieny:to be able to follow up with them.
Kevin Dieny:So Ronn you want to little talk a little bit about that side of the coin of
Kevin Dieny:generating a quality lead to help with therefore later generating an appointment?
Kevin Dieny:What goes into that?
Ronn Burner:Absolutely.
Ronn Burner:So I had formulated thoughts based on the conversation.
Ronn Burner:And then you segwayed over here to this and now I have to really quickly process.
Ronn Burner:You don't really know what level of this call is...
Ronn Burner:at least in my mind.
Ronn Burner:Right away I was thinking, okay, is this MQL or this SQL, and then again,
Ronn Burner:in the email, which would be my bread and butter more so than this, because
Ronn Burner:this is Matt's bread and butter, and we both cannot have the same bread, butter.
Ronn Burner:But the email world, there's a goal.
Ronn Burner:Each email in my mind has a singular goal.
Ronn Burner:Right?
Ronn Burner:And on a call, I feel like you don't want to overwhelm.
Ronn Burner:If you're fortunate enough to get a conversation going, you don't want to
Ronn Burner:overwhelm with, the information you just want to be as helpful as you can.
Ronn Burner:But again, in my mind, is this cold calling people that simply
Ronn Burner:came in because a form submission, which is a good one to start with.
Ronn Burner:If it's cold enough where we haven't spoken to you previously, but you fill
Ronn Burner:out a form and I know that your business operations there, because I've been
Ronn Burner:there previously, the form fills are requesting to speak with sales or they're
Ronn Burner:requesting to speak with somebody.
Ronn Burner:So that's obviously a much more comfortable call right out of the
Ronn Burner:gates because they're asking to be contacted versus if they download
Ronn Burner:a piece of content, which is still good, there's still engagement.
Ronn Burner:They're still interested.
Ronn Burner:They're profiling themselves, by letting you know that this of all the
Ronn Burner:options of content we have, this is the thing that they chose to download.
Ronn Burner:So that call is not near as warm, but yet it's better than, a flat
Ronn Burner:cold call from your database.
Ronn Burner:And there's all kinds of problems with, outdated databases
Ronn Burner:and things of that nature.
Ronn Burner:I've even worked in a situation years ago where we had, through
Ronn Burner:Salesforce, we had a third party, app that could create a calling list.
Ronn Burner:So there was an autodialer.
Ronn Burner:Dialing specific to the persona or specific to
Ronn Burner:whatever it was that we wanted.
Ronn Burner:And then we of course, had a script ready for that for our
Ronn Burner:SDRs to make those outbound calls.
Ronn Burner:I think the hardest part is just getting somebody on the phone and having a
Ronn Burner:conversation, whether they're ice cold or warm it's just getting on the phone
Ronn Burner:and trying to start the dialogue.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah, that's really good.
Kevin Dieny:The interesting thing you made me think about from that was when you put in
Kevin Dieny:a lead into the system, someone else is going to take it from there, a
Kevin Dieny:handoff between marketing and sales.
Kevin Dieny:Right?
Kevin Dieny:So when that handoff occurs, is marketing so totally and out of the clear now and
Kevin Dieny:done, is their hands wiped, cleaned?
Kevin Dieny:Not really.
Kevin Dieny:The reason is, is when marketing hands over these leads, they need to know
Kevin Dieny:from sales or from whoever it is next, the store, or the restaurant, or the
Kevin Dieny:business, the rep, the tech, whoever it is, that is taking the reins from that
Kevin Dieny:point, then, if it didn't turn into an appointment, why, what happened?
Kevin Dieny:And is it like Matt said, is it because someone is just not a fit,
Kevin Dieny:but they did everything right.
Kevin Dieny:Is it that they did nothing right...
Kevin Dieny:that information is fake and bogus?
Kevin Dieny:What is it exactly?
Kevin Dieny:Maybe also a little bit and beyond that would be, what was
Kevin Dieny:their reason if they were a fit?
Kevin Dieny:What was the reason for the objection and the loss?
Kevin Dieny:Because at some point it does start to become a little blurry in between if
Kevin Dieny:someone said, "Oh, the price is too high."
Kevin Dieny:Is that marketing's fault?
Kevin Dieny:Maybe, because at that point, was it positioned to be a much lower priced
Kevin Dieny:item and then they get there and then all they get all the time is this
Kevin Dieny:is way too overpriced or is it the rep trying to learn that objection
Kevin Dieny:and handle that pricing objection so that they can translate that.
Kevin Dieny:It does get a little blurry and a little gray sometimes.
Kevin Dieny:And if that's a repeated offender, right?
Kevin Dieny:An objection that comes up a lot.
Kevin Dieny:I think it's both there.
Kevin Dieny:It should be both teams looking at, okay, this is happening a lot.
Kevin Dieny:Is there something both of us could do?
Kevin Dieny:I wouldn't necessarily say, oh, it's all the sales or the front office duty to
Kevin Dieny:manage that one objection all the time.
Kevin Dieny:Especially if the marketing is being positioned in a way where it's like,
Kevin Dieny:look at these amazing deals, 80% off.
Kevin Dieny:And then when they come in, it's oh, that only applies on this one day.
Kevin Dieny:That really frustrates it pisses off the leads.
Kevin Dieny:Matt, the next leg of the journey is the influence on the lead.
Kevin Dieny:So your leads are coming in of highly variable quality.
Kevin Dieny:Just the nature of the beast.
Kevin Dieny:How do...
Kevin Dieny:businesses, small businesses, with maybe staff doing multiple
Kevin Dieny:duties - how are they translating or turning leads into appointments?
Kevin Dieny:What are some of the tips or suggestions you'd have there?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah.
Matt Widmyer:So kind of goes back to our last episode where we talked about feedback loops.
Matt Widmyer:Because I feel like in the grand scheme a feedback loop is necessary.
Matt Widmyer:One, it avoids that confrontational conversation between sales and marketing.
Matt Widmyer:Sales, telling the marketing people, "These leads suck and then
Matt Widmyer:marketing telling the salespeople, "No, you guys, suck, at closing
Matt Widmyer:them, it kind of bridges the gap.
Matt Widmyer:It's like, Hey, this wasn't the best lead because of A, B and C.
Matt Widmyer:Now, if it's a one-off thing, it's a one off thing.
Matt Widmyer:It happens.
Matt Widmyer:Right?
Matt Widmyer:But if it's repeated, like hey Kevin, here's what I'm noticing about every
Matt Widmyer:single lead that's coming through.
Matt Widmyer:We need to change something then that's a tweak that's homework
Matt Widmyer:essentially for you to do on your side.
Matt Widmyer:But if you're throwing out a different message than what the sales person's
Matt Widmyer:communicating, when they actually get on the phone with the prospect
Matt Widmyer:and that's a problem too, right?
Matt Widmyer:Because our message isn't aligned with how we're talking to the customer.
Matt Widmyer:That could be a sales training piece that we have on that end.
Matt Widmyer:Maybe it's a newer rep or maybe they don't have the negotiating skill or
Matt Widmyer:whatever they need further down the line.
Matt Widmyer:Usually don't find out until post conversation until something is
Matt Widmyer:definitively a yes or no, it's usually when it's easiest to determine.
Matt Widmyer:This is why the data's so important too.
Matt Widmyer:So you can look back at the ones, every single strikeout
Matt Widmyer:and okay, why did this happen?
Matt Widmyer:Why did this happen?
Matt Widmyer:And then you'll start to see patterns forming, and being able to readily
Matt Widmyer:adjust, and pivot as necessary there.
Matt Widmyer:I would say that, most people, in terms of, how they're want to be contacted, what
Matt Widmyer:time of day, preferred contact method.
Matt Widmyer:If you're somebody fills out a form because they want to hop on the demo,
Matt Widmyer:that doesn't mean they want to hop onto it right then and there when you call them.
Matt Widmyer:If you're calling anybody at work, let's be respectful of their time.
Matt Widmyer:And then, set something up for somewhere down the road.
Matt Widmyer:Yeah, I would just say, perseverance.
Matt Widmyer:I mean, they're coming to us.
Matt Widmyer:It's not like we're knocking on their door.
Matt Widmyer:In some cases we could be, but if marketing is generating the lead
Matt Widmyer:they've to some degree, raised their hand a little bit, you know?
Kevin Dieny:Yes.
Kevin Dieny:The, the question about objections and codifying them is one way that
Kevin Dieny:the feedback loop or the information or data can pass back to marketing.
Kevin Dieny:And that does mean that there needs to be a landing place somewhere.
Kevin Dieny:It's probably always mentioned like a CRM or something.
Kevin Dieny:Having someone say walk over to the marketing team and be
Kevin Dieny:like, I just got five calls and all were about this one thing.
Kevin Dieny:It is helpful.
Kevin Dieny:But in the grand scheme of things, there's a lot of marketing going on.
Kevin Dieny:There could be a lot of things going on.
Kevin Dieny:So it's much better usually to have that in a quantifiable, like a coded way.
Kevin Dieny:So for instance, you have the lead, you work the lead.
Kevin Dieny:And then when there's a positive thing that happens, an ideal outcome,
Kevin Dieny:some kind of status or update is made in the system and everyone knows.
Kevin Dieny:It's transparent when something unsatisfactory happens or
Kevin Dieny:when something is delayed.
Kevin Dieny:Let's say an objection is raised and the call ends and no appointment is set.
Kevin Dieny:Putting that information in a system or database so that everyone can
Kevin Dieny:see, okay, these are the leads I generated in the last month.
Kevin Dieny:What was the main reason why they objected and that's one way you can
Kevin Dieny:get around that, or at least marketing can find out and be like, okay, this
Kevin Dieny:objection is happening quite a lot.
Kevin Dieny:And obviously if we wait until the end of the month, maybe too late, but if it's
Kevin Dieny:happening so much that it can look at it earlier than those are the kinds of
Kevin Dieny:things where the manager may walk over to the other manager or the other team, and
Kevin Dieny:be like, this is happening a lot either today or in the last couple of days.
Kevin Dieny:And they can, they definitely want to be able to curb that
Kevin Dieny:because waiting until the end of the month, it might be too late.
Kevin Dieny:So Ronn, is there anything you wanted to add about that or that process or
Kevin Dieny:working with any of that information or how the leads are being taken once
Kevin Dieny:you've thrown them over the fence?
Ronn Burner:I do think it's a little bit of echoing what you've said.
Ronn Burner:You've each said.
Ronn Burner:The first thing that came to mind is when there is obstacles...
Ronn Burner:I write emails and I try to approach them from that angle.
Ronn Burner:And the whole thing is a package deal for sure.
Ronn Burner:But from the email standpoint, one, I said earlier, one email
Ronn Burner:has one very specific goal.
Ronn Burner:And part of that is pointing out maybe a problem that they did not
Ronn Burner:know they had, because when they see that and then they read it and then
Ronn Burner:they realize, yeah, that is true...
Ronn Burner:I do have that problem, and this solves for that.
Ronn Burner:So there's your perceived value, there's your value.
Ronn Burner:And when you send it over to sales and they get on the call and they
Ronn Burner:have their objections, those obstacles that they face by the sales marketing
Ronn Burner:synergy, when that relationship is really solid and both teams trust
Ronn Burner:each other, and they're working as a package deal together and as a team.
Ronn Burner:When sales does indicate some common objections that they face on a specific
Ronn Burner:product or whatever it is important for marketing to know, because that can be.
Ronn Burner:If not solved, it could be remedied in a way that's helpful because you can
Ronn Burner:address those things in the content, in the emails, because you've seen more
Ronn Burner:human and more real when you're, when they always say speak about what you can
Ronn Burner:offer and what you can do for them or what the value is not about the features.
Ronn Burner:So the features of a new phone doesn't really do now, who cares, right?
Ronn Burner:It's about what can they do for you?
Ronn Burner:So that's the same thing with this, where email marketing will indicate
Ronn Burner:the obstacles that they have, and this is how we address them
Ronn Burner:because we're not hiding from them.
Ronn Burner:We're straight up saying these are issues that we are aware
Ronn Burner:of, but we are the solution.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:When you said objections, I was like, oh yeah, I wanted to ask Matt about this.
Kevin Dieny:So I'm going off what Ronn was saying about how the marketing side is utilizing
Kevin Dieny:objections to change its messaging.
Kevin Dieny:How are, let's say call handlers, CSRs, SDRs, sales, anyone who's
Kevin Dieny:turning leads into appointments...
Kevin Dieny:How are those teams preparing for handling objections?
Kevin Dieny:Is this something where, as a manager, you hand them, let's say
Kevin Dieny:a sheet and you're like, here's some of the top five objections go
Kevin Dieny:practice how you'd handle these.
Kevin Dieny:Or does it come from mentoring?
Kevin Dieny:Is it come from learn it by dealing with it or when they come to you, how
Kevin Dieny:are objections being prepared for so that when they get on the call or when
Kevin Dieny:they get into handling, let's say a lead and they do have the ability to
Kevin Dieny:influence them that they're able to handle and manage those objections?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah, sure.
Matt Widmyer:Objections are not a one size fits all thing.
Matt Widmyer:There's an array of them.
Matt Widmyer:And it really depends on what the product or service you're offering is.
Matt Widmyer:Some of the ones that the common ones that we get are I'm too busy
Matt Widmyer:or you just got I'm in a meeting or whatever, half the time, those are
Matt Widmyer:blow offs anyway, but, there's very specific ways we handle those in house.
Matt Widmyer:The training for those comes in the initial, when somebody is brand new,
Matt Widmyer:we'll go over a lot of those things.
Matt Widmyer:We have weekly meetings too, and that's one of the discussion points and they're
Matt Widmyer:like, Hey, what are we running into?
Matt Widmyer:Here's the thing is I also measure that too, from a CRM perspective.
Matt Widmyer:So I see the objections that are coming through and then we're able to address
Matt Widmyer:like, Hey, it looks like you're running into this a lot with this, especially you
Matt Widmyer:want to keep an eye on them a lot closer, especially if it's a newer initiative
Matt Widmyer:or a new thing that's happening.
Matt Widmyer:But, if it's a targeted, maybe marketing campaign or something like that we want
Matt Widmyer:to put the microscope under those and the anecdotal stuff is always good too
Matt Widmyer:like, Hey, this is why this is happening.
Matt Widmyer:And the little explanation beyond what's in the CRM, you don't want to rely
Matt Widmyer:complete 100% of what's on the CRM because it takes the human element out of it.
Matt Widmyer:There are specific, objections that we, I mean, you could keep it to probably two
Matt Widmyer:hands, all the main ones that we hear.
Matt Widmyer:We have a one sheet with kind of addresses, like the best
Matt Widmyer:ways to handle all those.
Kevin Dieny:Right on!
Kevin Dieny:The next questions I have for everybody is on personalization.
Kevin Dieny:Now marketing understands this as we tailor, the message,
Kevin Dieny:the content, the delivery, the timing, the product, everything.
Kevin Dieny:Everything's gotta be an alignment.
Kevin Dieny:It's not...
Kevin Dieny:quite so laser focus, because that means the amount of content
Kevin Dieny:that marketing needs is we always do say it's like a tidal wave.
Kevin Dieny:It's overwhelming when you get down to one-to-one level of marketing is
Kevin Dieny:an extreme level of personalization.
Kevin Dieny:But just in general, personalization in marketing is similar to how
Kevin Dieny:personalization would be in working sales or in working appointments setting.
Kevin Dieny:So, Ronn, do you want to touch on the marketing side of personalization
Kevin Dieny:and what that looks like briefly?
Ronn Burner:Yeah.
Ronn Burner:What it really looks like is you want to remove the computer element
Ronn Burner:from things and try to seem like a human to human conversation.
Ronn Burner:I think that the goal always as a consumer, as well as a marketer, I
Ronn Burner:want the human element and the human touch to be there, to let them know.
Ronn Burner:Again, sales is a dirty word.
Ronn Burner:When we as consumers...
Ronn Burner:feel like we're being pitched something or sold something.
Ronn Burner:But when a relationship is formed, all of a sudden, now we changed the game
Ronn Burner:and it's a rapport and there's a trust.
Ronn Burner:And when there's some level of honesty and some level of belief,
Ronn Burner:now you have me listening.
Ronn Burner:And that is really half the battle right there.
Ronn Burner:So I believe personalization is essential frankly.
Ronn Burner:Of course, in the email marketing world it certainly is.
Ronn Burner:Just because I want, and even my style of writing, when I write things, I
Ronn Burner:like it to be a level of conversation, a level of humor, it just has a
Ronn Burner:human feel and a human touch to it.
Ronn Burner:The one-to-one relationship that's the holy grail in marketing is we want to
Ronn Burner:speak to every single person exactly as who they are very individually.
Ronn Burner:That is also a bridge too far for most organizations.
Ronn Burner:But that doesn't mean that you can't do the basic things, even
Ronn Burner:like in subject lines, you can, you can have their first name.
Ronn Burner:That's why database integrity is, is huge because the more clean your
Ronn Burner:database is, which also applies to the calls certainly but, it applies
Ronn Burner:to the personalization on landing pages, the personalization on emails.
Ronn Burner:You can even personalize nowadays with the automation, capabilities
Ronn Burner:you can personalize in the copy, very specific to previous conversations
Ronn Burner:that has taken place if we so choose.
Ronn Burner:So there's a lot of elements and a lot of, levels of personalization.
Ronn Burner:Really, close the gap of I'm being sold, something I'm being pitched something
Ronn Burner:versus they get me, they know what I want, they know what I'm interested in.
Ronn Burner:And they're speaking to me only about that one thing.
Ronn Burner:And that's that kind of focus and that kind of rapport, is really,
Ronn Burner:really important too for the bottom line at the end of the day.
Kevin Dieny:I love that.
Kevin Dieny:Explain it like I'm five, try to pretend like you're not
Kevin Dieny:a robot sending the emails.
Kevin Dieny:That was a great way to know that that's honestly like how you would explain it
Kevin Dieny:to people who don't quite understand, maybe the machinations going on behind it.
Kevin Dieny:Because it is all probably automated things happening at the
Kevin Dieny:scale you need to personalize.
Kevin Dieny:It kind of is coming from like an automated system or robot or whatever.
Ronn Burner:Well, this, this is an indication that we've worked together
Ronn Burner:previously because I have said talk to me like I'm in third grade many,
Ronn Burner:many, many times, but I did not today where you just thought I did.
Kevin Dieny:It was brilliant.
Kevin Dieny:Okay, Matt, this side of sales now to on personalizing the conversation,
Kevin Dieny:the act of turning the lead and getting that appointment out of it,
Kevin Dieny:building rapport, that relationship building, what does that look like?
Kevin Dieny:And how does that function effectively?
Kevin Dieny:On the sales side.
Matt Widmyer:Yeah, so it's the same, it's a lot is the same.
Matt Widmyer:We have things that we need to know to be able to specifically
Matt Widmyer:speak to a certain type of person.
Matt Widmyer:If you have an office manager versus an owner, those are gonna
Matt Widmyer:be two different conversations.
Matt Widmyer:You have to look at three different elements, three primary elements.
Matt Widmyer:Is the demographic of the person, right?
Matt Widmyer:What's your role?
Matt Widmyer:What's your rank in the company?
Matt Widmyer:What's their title?
Matt Widmyer:What's their management level.
Matt Widmyer:The firmographic information, like what type of company is it?
Matt Widmyer:What industry, how big the company is, in terms of like how many employees.
Matt Widmyer:And, anything else we could learn about the company and then the third
Matt Widmyer:would be the marketing interaction or any other sales interaction we've
Matt Widmyer:had in the past with that company or that person, specifically, cause
Matt Widmyer:we can use that and then arm us for a higher quality conversation.
Matt Widmyer:So I think that...
Matt Widmyer:you roll those three things into one and you have a pretty one
Matt Widmyer:to one intelligent conversation.
Matt Widmyer:We can make 500 calls a day, but I guarantee you, we aren't doing it
Matt Widmyer:going into that level of phone calls.
Matt Widmyer:Right?
Matt Widmyer:We can go and learn about their favorite color and what they like to
Matt Widmyer:do on weekends and all that stuff.
Matt Widmyer:I don't think a lot of that stuff is then you're on the other side of spectrum.
Matt Widmyer:You're only making 10 calls a day, but you're having awesome conversations if you
Matt Widmyer:get a hold of the person, but, there's a fine medium between quality and quantity.
Matt Widmyer:I feel like, knowing just enough to have a very personal conversation,
Matt Widmyer:versus generic is part of the recipe of call quotas and stuff like that
Matt Widmyer:and conversations on a daily basis.
Matt Widmyer:We take a lot of that stuff into account too.
Kevin Dieny:Okay, I'm gonna throw it right back to you, Matt, you
Kevin Dieny:basically described a lot about the outbound preparation that
Kevin Dieny:may go into personalizing calls.
Kevin Dieny:What about the inbound side?
Kevin Dieny:Let's say you're a smaller business that doesn't really do an outbound
Kevin Dieny:and you take a lot of more inbound.
Kevin Dieny:So you're more like a reception.
Kevin Dieny:You're more like a call handler...
Kevin Dieny:that's just picking up the phone when it rings.
Kevin Dieny:What kind of preparation can you do to prepare for the inbound side?
Matt Widmyer:So we use, we have a couple of data enhancement tools, in house.
Matt Widmyer:So those are always helpful.
Matt Widmyer:They give us basically fill in the blank on everything.
Matt Widmyer:For smaller companies probably wouldn't be able to afford something like
Matt Widmyer:that, or they might not have to have it in their budget at that point.
Matt Widmyer:So I think, the internet's your best friend in this.
Matt Widmyer:I would usually start if it's somebody brand new, the two primary places
Matt Widmyer:I go is their company website.
Matt Widmyer:If they hopefully they'll have one, if they don't, it's
Matt Widmyer:already a little bit trickier.
Matt Widmyer:Whether or not they have a website, also their LinkedIn is also, found to
Matt Widmyer:be a pretty helpful, thing to learn a little bit more about them and their
Matt Widmyer:employment history and all that stuff.
Matt Widmyer:And their role that they're currently in.
Matt Widmyer:If a company website has an about us tab or something like that, and they
Matt Widmyer:have pictures of everybody, I always like to see who it is I'm talking to or
Matt Widmyer:what their, some of their interests are.
Matt Widmyer:Sometimes we'll share interests and it makes it so much of an easier
Matt Widmyer:conversation, not the cheesy way.
Matt Widmyer:Like, Hey, I see you're an Eagles fan.
Matt Widmyer:And even though I'm not an Eagles fan, I'm going to say I am so,
Matt Widmyer:um, because I'm trying to sell you something, it's just a, if you're not
Matt Widmyer:stay away from it, but, yeah, there could be something there or, or not.
Matt Widmyer:So I think just the initial research phase to two main places I go to, the
Matt Widmyer:company website, as well as LinkedIn.
Kevin Dieny:I think it, it makes it really difficult for our businesses
Kevin Dieny:who are maybe a little less B2B and more B to C because they're...
Kevin Dieny:they may not want to step over the boundary of that personal privacy
Kevin Dieny:line, but there is sort of, let's say personas or groupings of people
Kevin Dieny:that may be associated with your business more often than not.
Kevin Dieny:For what you just laid out, it was, we're trying to get those basic, persona level
Kevin Dieny:things that you're trying to identify.
Kevin Dieny:What kind of businesses, this, where are they in the business?
Kevin Dieny:Answering those fundamentals guides, the conversation in
Kevin Dieny:very different pivotal ways.
Kevin Dieny:And because you need those bits of information, you either ask it
Kevin Dieny:or you try to infer it or you try to go to their website, you try to
Kevin Dieny:get it any way you possibly can.
Kevin Dieny:So knowing, okay, what is the basic qualifying questions I got to
Kevin Dieny:know on this call to move forward?
Kevin Dieny:Is it okay or is this the person bringing them in?
Kevin Dieny:Is this the person showing up for the appointment?
Kevin Dieny:Is this the person getting the healthcare service offer or
Kevin Dieny:product that we're selling, knowing how it's going to be used?
Kevin Dieny:There's a lot of maybe qualifying questions that come up.
Kevin Dieny:Sometimes they're handled in persona creation.
Kevin Dieny:So, Ronn, I figured you could give us another, like I'm five example of what
Kevin Dieny:a personas are so you can explain that?
Ronn Burner:I can, I just drifted away because when you mentioned initial
Ronn Burner:inbound calls and then Matt was going to their LinkedIn, I was like, oh, this
Ronn Burner:is very specific to lead generation.
Ronn Burner:Like you are absolutely trying to acquire field data because when I'm
Ronn Burner:calling under armor or Nike, or when.
Ronn Burner:For information on a product, I'm like...
Ronn Burner:I'm not giving, they don't know anything about me, I'm not telling them anything.
Ronn Burner:So it's a use case, very specific to lead generation organizations.
Ronn Burner:The persona element...
Ronn Burner:Yeah.
Ronn Burner:So personas can absolutely, it's an almost, uh, a use case business to
Ronn Burner:business situation or not B2B, but organization to organization, depending
Ronn Burner:on what, cause you could segment and use personas very specific to things like,
Ronn Burner:department that they work in, job title, from the sales perspective, you could
Ronn Burner:do it thinking of it in terms of highly engaged, very warm, ice cold, things of
Ronn Burner:that nature, or some sort of a scoring in automation world scoring is a common thing
Ronn Burner:based on the sort of engagement that you can receive through email correspondence,
Ronn Burner:social media website, tracking form submissions, events attended.
Ronn Burner:So the persona is leading to how you approach people well, and to speak to
Ronn Burner:them on the way that we were talking about earlier on the personalized levels.
Ronn Burner:So the persona is what enables you to know how to speak to them in a way
Ronn Burner:that's closer to who they really are rather than a very generic situation.
Ronn Burner:That doesn't make sense.
Ronn Burner:Having a database and having the ability to put people in there and having
Ronn Burner:the fields that are able to organize them into the different buckets, I
Ronn Burner:call them segments that you want.
Ronn Burner:It's important for sure.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah, Matt, back to you on this.
Kevin Dieny:What kind of qualifying stuff do you put in place to...
Kevin Dieny:get someone to actually show up to an appointment.
Kevin Dieny:I think setting an appointment is one set of skills.
Kevin Dieny:It's phone conversation management, asking the right questions, it's
Kevin Dieny:being prepared, personalizing it.
Kevin Dieny:But how do you get someone to show up to an appointment?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah.
Matt Widmyer:So, I mean, you have to answer the question.
Matt Widmyer:They're not asking, which is why is it worth my time to be on the phone with you?
Matt Widmyer:There's two layers, right?
Matt Widmyer:That you alluded to earlier, there's the basic qualifying information and
Matt Widmyer:stuff that needs to go in the CRM.
Matt Widmyer:We actually here we'll gate the SDRs from creating opportunities unless
Matt Widmyer:they have the requirements, pretty basic requirements, but things that
Matt Widmyer:we should know about people moving forward and we have that broken down
Matt Widmyer:based on what vertical they fall in to.
Matt Widmyer:Those are the basic qualifications.
Matt Widmyer:Then the other follow up questions, are mostly around current situation
Matt Widmyer:and that's mostly based on some, whatever product or service they're
Matt Widmyer:inquiring about or we're pitching to them on the other side of things.
Matt Widmyer:We need to know that it makes sense for the person, to at least learn more.
Matt Widmyer:They have to know what they're getting themselves into.
Matt Widmyer:So there's an agenda on the meeting invite.
Matt Widmyer:It could not be more crystal clear, obviously they don't, they
Matt Widmyer:aren't forced to do anything.
Matt Widmyer:But it's, they have to carve out the dedicated time.
Matt Widmyer:We let them know that you're going to be in front of a computer.
Matt Widmyer:We're probably going to be sharing our screen with you.
Matt Widmyer:So, being on a roof or in a crawlspace, probably isn't the best
Matt Widmyer:place to take one of these from.
Matt Widmyer:Really understanding their situation.
Matt Widmyer:So if we're talking to them about their online reviews, we're going to
Matt Widmyer:want to see, what their process is in terms of acquiring some of those
Matt Widmyer:and what their current ranking is, how many stars they have, how many
Matt Widmyer:reviews they got in the last 30 days.
Matt Widmyer:A lot of that stuff can be done before we even pick up the phone and call
Matt Widmyer:them and get on the phone with a demo.
Matt Widmyer:But the things that we're basically trying to...
Matt Widmyer:solve everything we can not initially research before we
Matt Widmyer:get on the phone with them.
Matt Widmyer:And then we're just asking the questions to fill in the gap.
Matt Widmyer:And if somebody gives you a really bland one word answer or something
Matt Widmyer:like that, never a bad idea just to ask a followup question.
Matt Widmyer:Well, what do you mean by that?
Matt Widmyer:Or, can you tell me a little bit more about that, always good questions to ask?
Matt Widmyer:Because it makes it sound A like your interest in what they have to talk about.
Matt Widmyer:And B people love talking about themselves and their own businesses.
Matt Widmyer:The more they can talk compared to how much you're talking as
Matt Widmyer:I'm talking a lot right now, it makes a better sales conversation.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:I feel like we've only cut the tip of the iceberg off on this conversation.
Kevin Dieny:There's a lot that goes into developing leads into appointments, but I think
Kevin Dieny:we have touched on some of the more poignant things that will help you
Kevin Dieny:turn more leads into appointments, which is getting your marketing
Kevin Dieny:the information it needs to create better leads that go into the system.
Kevin Dieny:And it does require a feedback loop.
Kevin Dieny:They're not just going to magically know what is going on.
Kevin Dieny:If there's no feedback loop telling marketing, here's the objections.
Kevin Dieny:Here's where the most leads are ending up there.
Kevin Dieny:They're asking for this, something that we don't sell that are asking to
Kevin Dieny:track their girlfriends or boyfriends or whatever, we don't do that.
Kevin Dieny:It's a misalignment that marketing needs to know that.
Kevin Dieny:And then the next leg of that is okay, well, someone's following up.
Kevin Dieny:Someone's going to go after this there's research that has to be done.
Kevin Dieny:There's a personalization that you want to have in that phone call, which has a
Kevin Dieny:huge requirement on research, on preparing when you get to the conversational
Kevin Dieny:component of it, it's knowing how to handle objections, which is probably
Kevin Dieny:going to be on almost every call.
Kevin Dieny:Unless you get someone who's just like, I'm ready to buy.
Kevin Dieny:Stop talking so I can buy, there's a pretty rare probably to run into that,
Kevin Dieny:but some people just know what they want.
Kevin Dieny:We do have it.
Kevin Dieny:We call it a one call close and things like that can happen.
Kevin Dieny:And then the last leg of this is like, okay, you get an appointment, but what
Kevin Dieny:if you're setting appointments and no one shows up, that's a problem.
Kevin Dieny:So you mentioned a lot of really, really good things.
Kevin Dieny:Keeping the conversation not one sided, making sure that it's crystal
Kevin Dieny:clear and expectations are set, what's required that the person on
Kevin Dieny:the other end knows exactly what to expect, what you're going to follow up.
Kevin Dieny:Who's you know, as the ball in their court, is it in yours?
Kevin Dieny:What they should be bringing.
Kevin Dieny:If you're a dentist, it's like, okay you got to bring insurance show up at this
Kevin Dieny:point, at this time for your appointment.
Kevin Dieny:And if you show up a little early, then you can fill out some forms.
Kevin Dieny:Bunch of stuff sometimes that goes into this.
Kevin Dieny:At the end of the day, making it so that they're really prepared, helps
Kevin Dieny:get more appointments to show up.
Kevin Dieny:So therefore you're getting better leads.
Kevin Dieny:Those leads are then turning into more appointments and more of
Kevin Dieny:those appointments are showing up.
Kevin Dieny:That's the summary that I've gotten from all of this.
Kevin Dieny:Was there anything you wanted to add Ronn?
Ronn Burner:You summed that up very well, the way I look at it is they're
Ronn Burner:calling or you're calling them or they're reaching out to you because they have
Ronn Burner:a problem or a question or a desire.
Ronn Burner:They just want something.
Ronn Burner:And our job, whether it's on the phones, or emails, on the website,
Ronn Burner:no matter what it is, our answer to that is we're the solution.
Ronn Burner:We have the answer to your question.
Ronn Burner:We have what you want, basically, we're the solution to whatever
Ronn Burner:it is you need and, talk to us and we'll help you get there.
Kevin Dieny:Alright Matt, was there anything else that
Kevin Dieny:you wanted to add to this?
Kevin Dieny:I know there's a lot here, but is there anything else that you're like,
Kevin Dieny:I got to mention this before the end?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah.
Matt Widmyer:There's definitely a lot.
Matt Widmyer:This could probably be its own separate podcast.
Matt Widmyer:We can just go down that rabbit hole, but I think at the end of
Matt Widmyer:the day, you did sum it up nicely.
Matt Widmyer:I think that, especially to get people, to show up for these appointments that
Matt Widmyer:the value needs to be built and, the value is built by it becoming relevant to them.
Matt Widmyer:And it's only become relevant to them if you ask questions and probe what
Matt Widmyer:their current situation is and why it would be beneficial for them to exchange
Matt Widmyer:15 to 20 minutes of their time for something that could end up helping
Matt Widmyer:them a lot from an ROI perspective.
Matt Widmyer:One of the things that we did, glaze over and I don't think we put enough or
Matt Widmyer:enough importance into it was, urgency.
Matt Widmyer:So someone's raising their hand because they need help with
Matt Widmyer:something, response time is critical.
Matt Widmyer:It's probably the most important thing if somebody is inquiring, because
Matt Widmyer:there's so much data, on the internet and they've done a lot of research
Matt Widmyer:on response rate versus, if the appointment ends up happening and beyond.
Matt Widmyer:The longer you wait, the less likely they are to do business with you, period.
Matt Widmyer:They're going to find someone else somewhat similar that can take
Matt Widmyer:care of most of the stuff, even if it's, not all the same stuff, just
Matt Widmyer:because, we've made them feel like they weren't important because we're
Matt Widmyer:taking our time, getting back to him.
Matt Widmyer:It's not, it was critical.
Matt Widmyer:Now somebody fills out a form at 2:00 AM.
Matt Widmyer:They probably aren't expecting a call five minutes later or something like that.
Matt Widmyer:But if it's like during regular business hours, those things will always take
Matt Widmyer:priority over anything, outbound that we're working, just because there
Matt Widmyer:is such a sense of urgency there.
Matt Widmyer:So I did want to emphasize that was the one piece I felt like that fell a little
Matt Widmyer:bit short on during the initial questions.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:Good catch.
Kevin Dieny:That is really huge.
Kevin Dieny:I can't tell you how many times I've called someplace.
Kevin Dieny:Calling by the way is a very intimate, very direct, very immediate
Kevin Dieny:real-time communication method.
Kevin Dieny:You expect when you're calling, you want to get something resolved quickly and
Kevin Dieny:you're sending an email it's much more, patient of a response your expecting.
Kevin Dieny:When you're calling a business, they don't pick up.
Kevin Dieny:The thing you're going to do is call the next one.
Kevin Dieny:Not picking up a call is dire.
Kevin Dieny:The time to response or time to, conversation or time to
Kevin Dieny:following up is pretty huge.
Kevin Dieny:If that's being caused by the research step, then maybe there's an issue,
Kevin Dieny:but making sure you do have a more personalized conversation is also key.
Kevin Dieny:So balancing all of this, like you said, maybe a whole entire podcast dedicated
Kevin Dieny:to turning leads into appointments.
Kevin Dieny:So that's it for this episode.
Kevin Dieny:Big takeaways are that you got to focus on controlling as much as you can control.
Kevin Dieny:There's a lot, you cannot control.
Kevin Dieny:You have teams of people on the phone.
Kevin Dieny:All of them are going to be different.
Kevin Dieny:You have leads with a wide spectrum of quality coming in at all different
Kevin Dieny:times, even 2:00 AM, like you said, and it could be the case.
Kevin Dieny:Doing the steps you can, that are important, like preparing and getting
Kevin Dieny:the process down and stuff like that will help turn more leads into appointments.
Kevin Dieny:So appreciate your time, everybody.
Kevin Dieny:Gentlemen, thank you for this really great insight into this
Kevin Dieny:topic and really appreciate it.
Kevin Dieny:Thank you.
Matt Widmyer:Absolutely.
Matt Widmyer:Thanks for having us again.
