Rev. Robin T. Jennings elucidates the profound intersection of Celtic Christianity and the contemporary spiritual journey in his latest literary contribution, "Expressions of the Soul: Celtic Christianity and Life with God." This episode serves as a platform for an engaging dialogue that explores how the ancient practices and beliefs of Celtic Christians can inform and enrich modern faith experiences. Jennings articulates the significance of the soul's expressions and the communal aspects inherent in Celtic spirituality, urging listeners to contemplate the transformative potential of these traditions. Furthermore, he emphasizes the importance of fostering relationships, such as the concept of Anam Cara, or soul friend, as a means of deepening one's connection to the divine and to one another. Through this discussion, we are invited to reflect on our own spiritual practices and the enduring relevance of Celtic Christianity in our lives today.

The conversation with Rev. Robin T. Jennings delves into the profound essence of Celtic Christianity as articulated in his latest book, "Expressions of the Soul: Celtic Christianity and Life with God." Jennings, who possesses a wealth of experience as an Episcopal minister, elucidates the spiritual depth and historical richness of Celtic traditions. He recounts his own spiritual journey, revealing how early experiences in a boys' center in Chicago led him to seminary and ultimately to a ministry that spanned over three decades. This background sets the stage for his exploration of the themes of community, spirituality, and the unique practices of Celtic Christianity, which he argues offers vital insights for contemporary seekers of faith. Jennings emphasizes the importance of understanding the soul's connection to God and the significance of prayer, illustrating how these elements are woven into the fabric of Celtic spirituality. He articulates that Celtic Christianity is not a departure from traditional Christianity but rather an enriching perspective that emphasizes God’s presence in nature and the sanctity of every individual.

Throughout the discussion, Jennings also introduces the concept of "thin places"—locations where the divine and the mundane intersect, offering glimpses of the sacred in everyday life. He encourages listeners to seek these moments of divine encounter in their own lives, reaffirming that Celtic Christianity’s legacy continues to resonate in today's diverse spiritual landscape. By the end of the episode, Jennings leaves the audience with a call to embrace the communal aspects of faith and to cultivate deeper relationships with God and one another through practices rooted in Celtic traditions.

Takeaways:

• Rev. Robin T. Jennings discusses the significance of Celtic Christianity in modern spiritual practices, emphasizing its relevance today.
• The concept of 'Anam Kara' or 'soul friend' is presented as a transformative practice within Celtic spirituality.
• Celtic Christianity's connection to nature is articulated, highlighting the reverence for God's creation as integral to faith.
• Jennings elaborates on the idea of 'thin places,' mystical locations where the divine presence feels more accessible and tangible.
• The podcast explores the historical context of Celtic Christianity and its contributions to the broader Christian tradition.
• Listeners are encouraged to consider how the teachings of Celtic Christianity can foster community and inclusiveness in contemporary faith practices.

Second Corinthians 3, 12, 18 in the Christian standard Bible say, since then we have such a hope, we act with great boldness.

We are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from gazing steadily until the end of the glory of what was being set aside. But their minds were hardened. For to this day and at the reading of the Old Covenant, the same veil remains.

It is not lifted because it is set aside only in Christ. Yet still today, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts. But whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

Now the Lord is the Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

We all with unveiled faces are looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image. From glory to glory. This is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

The letter of Second Corinthians is written to the church at Corinth, partly in defense of Paul's ministry and partly to address false teachings and divisions that arose in that church. And in this chapter, Paul was explaining the superiority of the New Covenant over the Old Hebrew covenantal law.

Robin Jennings how might we understand the importance of praying in the Spirit as greater than reading the law in today's world?

Here we go. Prayer is a gift that's given to us.

And rather than go straight to the law or something in writing, it can be different forms of communication in ways that relate us through the power of the Spirit, uniting us to the will of God in ways that is again, something that may not be written down except on our hearts. And so it's in this spirit that we we offer our prayers day in and day out.

And I don't know if this is a response or an answer to your question, but that was a loaded opening. I just thought I'd start with that and let's go.

Yeah.

Good stuff.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Whole Church Podcast. Possibly your favorite church unity podcast. Possibly not. Which is cool.

We're not in competition because that would be self defeating for the whole unity thing. Yeah, we don't do that. TJ would be mad at me. Speaking of, I'm Joshua Noel, here to do a couple of things.

Most importantly is introduce the main host of the show, the co host with the absolute most, T.J. pot Almighty Tiberius Juan Blackwell. How's it going?

Good.

Welcome to your show. Thanks. We're also here with a fabulous guest. Really excited to be speaking with author Pastor Robin Jennings.

We're going to be talking about his most recent book Expressions of the Celtic Christianity and Life with God.

So if you want a career, there's a career. You can go to our website, purchase one of our T shirts. This helps promote the show.

It raises money for podcasting needs, and it lets others know about the importance of our mission to educate and unite the modern church. Mine is of course favorite is the TJ quote on the back. It's a shirt with the logo on the front and nothing on the back. It's perfect.

Yeah, I am. I'm sporting today topic relevant. So with the Irish Trinity knot on the back so you can find that one, we got some nice church unity.

You know, creed quotes along with it.

But that's a good one.

Yeah. Also consider checking out some of the other podcasts online as well. Podcast network. Some of them are pretty good. I'm on Be Living Water.

We're both on Systematic Ecology. Christian Ashley is on all of them. Check him out. Let nothing move you. Or literally any of them. Probably. Yeah.

But as usual, we do like to start with a very important sacrament here, sacred to me, which is silliness, because you can't be divided when you're being as silly as I like to be today. Silly question. Going to start off with DJ and islands are first. Give you time to think about it.

Robin, if you could invite three fictional characters with you to a Celtic pilgrimage. We're just hiking around Ireland. Who are you going to take with you? I'm going to go absolute first because there is a correct answer.

Okay.

And it's Samwise Gamgee. After Samwise Gamgee, I want to go with Captain Benjamin Cisco from Star Trek.

And then I'm just gonna mess everything up and bring Monkey D Luffy with me.

Sure.

Mostly because when we have a feast in Ireland, Luffy's gonna be a fun one to have there, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dj what three fictional characters are you hiking around Ireland with?

I think it's really easy to just go with, you know, Tolkienian. You just Lord of the Reed characters.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, if I could remember more Narnia characters names, I would probably say them, but it's been a very long time.

She's just walking around with Aslan. He just.

Would be a good one. Aslan would be a great one. Definitely. Sam. Probably Frodo, too. It would just feel weird to have one of the two. There's a lot of good, easy answers.

There's a lot of good, easy. Can I choose King Arthur?

You could you. Can I count that as fictional?

All right.

And it would be really entertaining given the context.

Yeah. We're in Ireland.

Yeah.

See what he feels about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, Frodo's too whiny. I would never include him. I might include throwback to another silly question. Christian from Pilgrim's Progress.

Or somehow no one answered for the evangelist missiology 1. When they're talking about Pilgrim's Progress, no one brought up the character evangelist, so I could have brought him, too. He'd be cool.

But Robin, three fictional characters.

Yeah. All right.

So you got to realize I'm just a little older and a little more mature, so I'm going for fictional characters, but the ones that actually were historical in my life, but hysterical in ways that I still consider and think of them today is Lassie the dog. Have you ever heard of Lassie?

First book I ever read.

I see. Don't you start to cry. And now I want to go to. You're talking about, aren't we making a Celtic pilgrimage? I've got to have a dog with me.

And then I would have, you know, Moses had, of course, his. When you mentioned Mountain Moses, he had his stick. Do you remember that? That he thrust into the. Okay. And so I would need a.

Not just a walking stick, but a magic stick to go with me as I make my way with Lassie along the way. And I guess, you know, you don't have to quote me on this, but certainly I think there needs to be a female to go with me as well.

Celtic Christianity. Did you know they were very inclusive? They liked women. They were okay with women, and women were okay with men from a religious standpoint as well.

So I'm, you know, I'm not being crude or anything, but so with that, I would. I would like to find, you know, like, a magic woman that would walk with me and talk with me and we would enjoy the. The pilgrimage together.

Right.

I was also thinking 10.

10.

10 Would be fun, man.

Any of the characters from Adventure Time would be great. But also, he mentioned dog.

And I just couldn't help but think about how hilarious it would be to just go on this pilgrimage with Clifford the Big Red Dog. See, everyone knows what you're doing.

But yeah, dead faster.

Yeah, that'd be funny. That's true. Be really cool. Quick pilgrimage.

Take no time at all.

Yeah.

So for real questions, not that silliness isn't extremely.

I think it's vitally important.

It's sacramental, but it's not the point. You have recently published a book on Celtic Christianity that we're here to talk about and correct.

You spent most of your ministerial career in Kentucky.

Could you share with us some about your journey to faith and then becoming an Episcopal minister and how you eventually decided to write a book on this topic in particular?

Sure. I again, when I start to think we're going back 50 years, how far do you want me to go back is that. But no, I started after college. I went back to.

I grew up in Chicago, outside of Chicago. Went back there, worked in an Episcopal boys center for kids. Boys emotional.

It Matt, you it would be hard to classify them, but they were emotionally disturbed, I guess in those days you would call it.

But you looked at their files and their understanding about what they experienced, what they've gone through and you go, oh my God, I can't even imagine walking and talking, you know.

Anyways, those were my kids, eighth graders and oh, by the black, Hispanic, Asian, in eight or ten kids I had under my care in a center, every day there was a fight. Oh, by the way, they were eighth graders. I told you, they're all bigger than I am.

And these boys were young men, really, and close to teenagers, if not 13 year old, a couple of them. And the issue with him was constantly fighting in conflict. And that was the name of the game in terms of communication.

So my job was to see if we couldn't settle down, breathe and talk and work together. However, I was often in the middle of these fights and it was just crazy.

However, there was a chaplain at the school and I would go and talk with him and he said to me that I was asking a lot of good questions. And I said, really? And he said, yeah. He said, why don't you go to seminary? Have you thought of going to seminary? And I said no.

Anyways, that was my calling. And it really was a calling because I did have a gazillion questions, obviously being in Chicago.

Oh, by the way, it was back after Martin Luther King had been assassinated. It was the Democratic Convention. There was, I don't know, Vietnam, I mean, you name it, there was all kinds of issues. It's like today any other.

I guess. I mean the place was up for grabs.

But with that said I had a little girlfriend, my fiance, and I whispered in her ear, I said, how about if we go to seminary? And she kind of looked at me and said, I thought maybe we'd go to church. You know, it was one of those kind of, you know, are you serious?

And anyways, off we went. And I was actually in talking with everything from bishops to deans to professors, chaplains at the seminary.

They all questioned my coming to seminary at an early age. This was an Episcopal denomination and all this, and they looked for the more mature, of which I was not.

However, we were just getting married, and they said, you know, you can't do that to a young woman and all this kind of stuff. And I said, well, no, it's good to try. Anyways, I decided, no, let's go.

And as it turned out, the whole seminary experience really helped frame and shape the church. And, you know, both of us, my wife and I, never looked back. I mean, it was just a wonderful experience.

And we got a great deal from it and went on, you know, as far as the ordained ministry goes. And with that, you could say I was at one church for I don't even know how long. It was 35 years almost.

In those 35 years, every five years, something was up and down and changing and turning around and capital campaigns and this and that. We had women's ordination, we had changes of prayer books. We had all kinds of problems.

And yours truly being in a leadership position was right in the middle of it all. So there we go.

It is interesting, too, with all that experience, then working as an Episcopal minister, everything you've been through, people might expect that you would have wrote something about the history of American Christianity or English Christianity. But your book, you're focusing on Celtic, on the Irish.

Sure.

Why would you choose that focus over maybe some of those others?

Well, the first three books I wrote, they were more Bible studies, and that came out of. I taught the Bible, which was very good in the Episcopal Church. I had a real big crowd. Yeah, it worked great, and I really enjoyed that.

Was a big part of my week, was to spend that time in Scripture. With that, though, after those three books, I wanted to then go from. And they were all about spiritual growth.

You mentioned my being in Shalem, which is a spiritual direction program that was. Had a big impact on me early on in the ministry.

And from that point on, I guess, is where I was providing that kind of interest in the Episcopal Church. Not just the liturgy, not just the prayer books, but, you know, your relationship with God. Let's Talk about it, you know.

But by the way, we also had, back in those days, aa, Alcoholic Anonymous Group, largest one in town. How about that for a prize? But it was incredible. I mean, it really turned out a lot of great people.

And the reason why I'm saying this is I would go every month to the open meetings and I would say, hi, I'm Robin. And they'd say, hi, Robin. You know, this kind of thing. But then I would say, I'm the minister here. Welcome to St. Francis. I'd love to meet with you.

If there's any time you want to talk, please feel free to do so. They did all these guys. A lot of the guys would come, you know, developing, working on a particular step. They'd want to talk about it.

And again, about God, the image they had of God. I'm coming back to your question. Long ago, or whoever asked it was A. T.J. you asked the question of. So how did I get to Celtic Christianity?

After the books on. I wrote a book on Peter and then one on Paul. Peter, Paul and not Mary. The third one was on James.

So those three books were all about spiritual growth. And also the book on James was on mentoring, which I think is a really important, important aspect of our ministry.

With that, I then decided I'd like to, right now, some books on spiritual traditions within the church that often are overlooked.

Now we get started to Celtic Christianity that was 3rd, 4th, 5th century, you know, after the creeds were being developed, after the theology was coming around, after Rome fell, what was going on with church. So that's where I pick up the story on. On Celtic Christianity. I'm now also writing a book on Christian mysticism.

I don't want you guys to think I'm sounding wacky. That's a whole nother dimension. And the Christian spiritual life is. Are the Christian mystics. And it.

You know, I can go on and on about all of that as well. But with this said, it I think, really pushed a button for many people in terms of the book itself.

The Irish, the Scottish people particularly, they love the book. You know, the o', Leary's, you know, all this kind of stuff.

But in all seriousness, the people that were not familiar with it, they looked at the title of the book, Expressions of the Soul. I go around, I do a lot of teaching now in large churches in Louisville. And they all jumped on the title Expressions of the Soul. What do you mean?

What are you talking about? You know, now again, they're looking at me like I'm some kind of weirdo. I'm saying, no, let's talk now. You guys interrupt and ask more questions.

But I can tell you that that was the jumping off point for a lot of people was to begin to really give some consideration and thought to the place of the soul in their life. How's that for an opener?

Pretty good.

Okay, that's pretty good.

So for those who aren't familiar, how would you describe Celtic Christianity and how is it different from other spiritual traditions?

Okay, that's kind of not a loaded question, but it. But it does. Part of the bridge I've tried to create, at least in my own mind and my own spirit, my own conversations with people is.

It's not separate from Christianity. It's not different. Oh, from the Catholics. You know, they'll. They'll. There's that sense of they split off from the Catholics. They. They did not.

The Catholics got crushed, you know, by the. The invaders and the. The. You know, all the different tribes that came in and blew up.

The Rome and the Irish, the monks would come down into Rome and get whatever kind of. Oh, they'd collect Bibles they could get manuscripts, anything they could, and they'd bring it back to Ireland for safekeeping.

And that's when that started. The artistic side of the Celtic Christianity was the illumination of scripture and the painting and all that went with that.

Back to the question of, again, the difference. How did you say that, tj? Was it the difference between Celtic Christianity. Okay, so I hesitate to go with differences because here's an example.

Celtic Christianity obviously was connected with nature. That doesn't mean they're pantheistic or, you know, they believe that the tree is God or the lassie is an angel or something. The dog, remember?

Yeah, right. But. But that what they do is they recognize God the Creator is in that tree. God the Creator has created these mountains.

God the Creator brings us the water, the waves, you know, and that again, if being up in the Highlands of Scotland or over in Ireland, incredible geography with water, of course, all around. And that was really a big part of the. The beginning of the church of Celtic Christianity. It was outdoor church. It was.

We didn't talk about cathedrals or anything of that sort of big buildings or no such thing. I mean, it was very much a simple beginning of the witness to the faith. And in that respect, again, that. That simplified the church.

Confession of sin. Oh, boy, that was something, again, that the Celtic Christianity really developed was. Come on, let's talk about it. You have a problem. Let's.

Let's reflect upon it and let's forgive you. It's your sin, not mine, you know, kind of thing. We need to have that understanding that the cross and the forgiveness of sin is for real.

If you want to follow the Christian life as you start to go through the worship of the prayers that the Celtic Christians developed, it was very Trinitarian with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. All of this and more was a strong, as I say, witness that was to the Christian faith, that you would not have thought of anything different.

Now, the cross that they built, the Celtic cross, I don't know if you're familiar with that would have looked different to the Roman Western cross.

The reason for the Celtic cross, very much a part of trying to simulate or bring the culture that was so much a part of Ireland at that time, as well as Scotland. Barbaric in many respects to the Christian faith. So they're worshiping totem poles.

Back in those days, the Celtic Christians used that totem pole, and instead of having a round circle on the top of the pole where they worship the sun, they use that same circle as the head of Jesus. Then they put up the arms and all of a sudden they're talking about the cross and the crucifixion. So with that came the Celtic cross.

The holes around the ground were a reminder of the water and the air, the land and the fire. I mean, the basic elements of life were also witness to God the Creator.

Right. And it sounds.

See where I'm going with all this?

Yeah. I mean, it feels honest. Well, you know, I grew up Pentecostal. We both grew up Pentecostal. So to me, a lot of this is just like, you know, that's.

That's how. That's how church works.

Yeah.

God is everywhere. That's just what it is.

There you go. There you go.

So it's not. It's not like a Greek Orthodox situation. No, there's not like a Celtic Orthodox church, is there? Well, that's not what we're talking about.

There is.

You lost me on that one. No. And Celtic Christianity is still present. I mean, it's still out there.

It was on its own in Ireland and Scotland for the most part, and really spread the gospel throughout Europe Again, with Rome having been attacked and defeated, this was the area that began to strengthen, kept strengthening the church. You know, they talk about the Dark Ages and all that. This was the Dark Ages, but there's the light. They were shining the light of the gospel.

Right. So is it the same as Irish Catholicism, Celtic Christianity, similarities to Irish Catholicism at all?

Yes. And no, the Irish Catholics are Catholics. And you know, this is where you get into denominational stuff and what I'm.

And I shouldn't say stuff, but the denominational issues and yes, and probably I want to say the, oh, 9th or 10th century under, in Whitby, that's where they began to divide up. The Catholic Church began to really take over the Celtic Church. They didn't like the Celtic monks because they wore their hair funny.

Can you believe that? No, it was those kinds of things.

They got into issues, but then also they fought over the calendar when was Easter, you know, and they got into that kind of issue and it just one king got into it. I won't go into great deals of the history of it, but it broke the Celtic church apart.

And I mean, in terms of any organization, even though it wasn't all that organized, that Celtic Christianity was primarily a monastic movement. And you know, when you say monastic, we're talking monks and you're going, what? You know, that's kind of weird.

But that was the beginning of a community. And you know, as a result, then families and children and all could come around by where that monastic safehold was.

And they taught them about not only painting and art, but how to read and. Right. And then also farming, things of that sort that brought in a culture.

And some of those anti Celtic sentiments still remain today.

And some of the more, more stringent, you know, sects, I don't even want to say denominations or even groups, I'll hear every once in a while someone's like, oh, you celebrate Easter? That's so weird. You know, that's not actually your day, and so on and so forth. So it's interesting that that's still relevant.

Well, you throw in St. Patrick, you know, I mean, I can't tell you how many talks I gave on St. Patrick this March. I got several audiences and, you know, come on, let's bring him in.

You know, because I wrote the book, you know, that kind of thing, which is fun, I enjoy it and all that kind of thing, but most people are out there drinking green beer and, you know, having parties and enjoying life and all that sort of thing. And they're missing the whole understanding of evangelism, you know, and bearing witness to the faith.

Patrick was the guy that blew me away from the standpoint. We started. I took a group to Ireland and we started in Dublin and there was St. Patrick's Cathedral and that's where we started.

And you know, we all noticed there was all kinds of stuff inside that was really interesting. In terms of the history. But then we made our big circle around. We came back to. It's called the Hill of Slain.

And it was there that Patrick first lit what was called the Paschal flame, which is the Easter flame. And he lit it, and the king below was a druid, and he said, no, we're not having any fires, except for mine. Put the fire out.

No, he kept the fire going because it's Easter. I mean, it was one of these kind of deals.

So the king sent up a little mercenary group to come and bring Patrick and his gang down the hill to, you know, again to be interviewed, which means to be executed.

You know, those days, I mean, Patrick knew what was coming anyways, he came down the hill and then told them the gospel story of the king and all that we were around. And they ended up baptizing the group down there. And. And sure enough, he could keep the candle going.

And with that, Christianity in that particular area was born. But the area where he was, they call it thin place. You know, these are the expressions. So the expressions of the soul are.

One expression might be the thin place, which is what I was just talking about with the Hill of Slain, where Patrick was. A thin place is a place where it seems like heaven and earth come together just for a moment, but you recognize the sacred and the secular.

You're aware of earth as well as heaven. I mean, you know, it's one of those kind of moments some people get where they go, wow, this is just, you know, amazing.

Yeah, yeah. Well, before we get to thin places, we want to talk to you some about that as well. But you mentioned some of the denominational issues already.

So I'm just curious, when we're looking back at Celtic Christianity, what teachings, what practices were developed during that time that you think we might be able to apply or learn from, no matter what denomination we're in now. Right.

I imagine there are some from that time period that, you know, Catholic, Orthodox, Southern Baptist, Lutherans, Pentecostal, Whoever could probably still pull something from some of those practices and teachings.

One would be the sense of community. Excuse me. Would be the sense of community.

And again, as I mentioned earlier, there's that monastic formation, but that was very accepting, and it was hospitable.

And so hospitality was a big part of those early movements that took place in the church, where they welcomed people, the traveler, the stranger, the person who was beaten along the side of the road, you know, like a Good Samaritan sort of thing. This was the Celtic understanding of the neighbor. And again, it was a difficult world that they lived in. I mean, I can't even imagine, but it was.

It was. It was dark and it was cold and it was wet. And here they are beginning to. To create a community and a life.

Along with that understanding community, there were also pilgrimages that they constantly go on. They would talk about these pilgrimages by being led by God. Well, we can talk about, you know, I'm writing books now.

It's like a pilgrimage in the sense that, you know, you come up with the idea and then you start to follow where God leads you. And before, you know, you end up writing something. I mean, it's this understanding of a pilgrimage.

It doesn't have to be traveling, you know, on the ground. We can be having a pilgrimage in our mind. But that's an important concept that the Celtic Christianity really promoted.

And of course, they did that with their boats and everything else. I would say, too, their understanding of Genesis, that would be appealing probably to all denominations. That was early.

It got caught up later in controversy with. With theology and all. But the image of God being created in the image of God, you know, you have to stop and think about that one for a second.

But it was very, very important in the Celtic Christian movement because it brought the sacredness out in everyone's life. Everyone is sacred, everyone who's been created by God.

You know, I mean, so it opens up the acceptance of the people that, you know, they're living with. It's not like you look in a mirror and say, I look like God or something.

It's more not just simply a characteristic or an attribute, but it's a way of, again, living for God because he's placed his kind of, if you will, a thumbprint on your soul and brought you into this world. And the soul itself is a gift from God. You know, it's not something that's man made, but it's been given to us.

And so it's that soul that connects us and relates us to God. All right. Are you going to edit probably the.

Train horn in the background of my. You mentioned it once. You mentioned it once already. Then places comes up a lot. Sorry, it's. It's a long train.

It's okay.

I love a train. We never edit the train horns.

Okay.

Just for the record, occasionally I even add extra trains.

Yeah, great.

But you mentioned it once and it comes up a lot when people talk about Celtic spirituality. It's thin places. Could you possibly unpack that term for us a little bit and share how you use that in your book?

Well, again, as I say, that Hill of Slain would be an example where life turned and the world changed and religion took hold in terms of, you know, in one moment kind of thing.

And it was Patrick with the light of the world that he was carrying into this druid spirit headquarters, which again could have been a life and death matter. And for him, thank God, it was life and. And he was able to again go on with his witnessing to all of Ireland.

But the thin place itself too, is something we recognize. You know, you, you. It can be as.

I don't want to say simple, but it can be something like falling in love, you know, where you go, holy mackerel, what's this all about?

And then, you know, it's beyond not only the other person, but the other person now becomes a gift for you or becomes again, you recognize something in that person that's sacred or holy or, you know, something that is beyond just beautiful or terrific and isn't she wonderful or that kind of thing. But it's again, it's a recognition that, that God is bringing this, these two together.

I mean, that would be an example, say, sacraments, things that are sacred in our life now, regardless of denomination. The thin place again brings us to that point where we say, okay, this is. We're in a, in a holy place. We're in a sanctuary.

You know, now the Celtic Christians wouldn't use that word, sanctuary because they didn't have a sanctuary. But we would talk about like something like that because it's again, it's a reminder that you're going to a special place, you know, to, to worship.

And so here, again, thin places can be. You probably experience this in worship where you think, man, that was just incredible.

You know, that was a great day, or that was a great service, or that was a great song or it was a great prayer, you know, really touched me at, you know, a certain place. I, you know, I don't know, I'm just talking now, right.

I love the concept of thin places because it kind of taps into that mystery of God. Like, I love just a little bit of that mysticism where it's like, all right, in this space, the separation between man and God is, Is smaller then.

And in a country like Ireland. Yeah, you totally believe it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've been there.

It's easy to think like, outdoor wise that you're like, hey, these places teaching. I go to a camping, a place called Cumberland Island. For me, I probably call that a thin places.

But even like within our churches, and it probably depends Denomination. Weirdly enough, I feel like a lot of your Baptist Pentecostals are probably thinking of altar calls as a thin place.

And then you probably have, you know, your Lutherans and Anglicans thinking of the. The sacrament of the Eucharist is like, oh, yeah, that moment. That's the third place.

So it's funny, like, as you're talking about it, I feel like different people might imagine different things, but I think that term's still relatable regardless.

Very much so. And, you know, you want to say it's natural. I mean, you know, you expect that to happen, or it's part of the service. I saw it in the leaflet.

I knew it's coming next or something like that, you know, anticipating it. But bring in the supernatural. I mean, you know, that understanding, too, that something greater than.

And it all of a sudden, sudden, you know, that doesn't explode, but it blows it open in ways that magnifies it much greater.

And that's why in places that aren't Ireland, like South Carolina, we have whole special little chapels in beautiful places.

Some people would say pretty places, because it's called pretty place, and it's just a chapel on top of the mountain where people feel, you know, they get caught up in the sense of beauty and wonder and makes them feel close. It's a thin place, and it's. It's great. My cousin got married there. It's pretty cool.

A lot of Old Testament references to, you know, something happened with God somewhere. So you're gonna set up a little altar, a little memorial here of.

This is where Jacob wrestled with the angels, or this is where God lives across the sea. Yeah, same kind of deal.

Yeah.

And that's too, where the Celtic cross is also. Often were held and positioned where they were once druid stones, they became Celtic crosses and they became places of worship, you know.

And so all of that, you know, I think, starts to pull together in terms of the witness of Celtic Christianity.

Yeah, I think it's. A lot of people are quick to criticize that era of Christianity because they're, you know, appropriating pagan symbols. It's not.

Yeah, yeah.

It was cost effective. You know, it's efficient.

Try that. Yeah, I hadn't used that before, but that's good.

I don't understand.

Well, and then you put in. Go ahead.

There you go.

Well, I was going to say they have in the book itself many different expressions that are important to the Celtic Christian tradition, as well as their engagement with the. Not only God, but now with the people that they're. They're forming and shaping in this new spiritual life or Christian faith.

But St. Bridget would be an example. Female. A female saint. Now, see, the Catholics go nuts when I start talking like this, but I. I'm talking to you guys, so I hope you appreciate.

But anyways, in all seriousness, was a reminder of her, without getting too graphic. She was born on a threshold in a little cabin. Her mother was actually a slave who had been raped by the guy that, you know, ran the farm.

And as she began to step over the threshold, kind of her, she began to question her life. The mother, do I go back to this jerk, you know, or can I take my baby and leave?

You know, it was one of these kind of matters that she was standing on. And while she's standing on the threshold, suddenly little Bridget comes out. And Bridget was known as the saint of thresholds.

You know, be it going from winter to spring or, you know, going from being, you know, fishing, having a good day of fishing, you had a day like never before. You know, if you were making, developing your crops, and you went from the winter to the.

To the planning of spring, and then comes the summer, fall, you know, where each. Each season became a threshold, and certainly in the homes as well.

You know, all of that was again, a reminder of the change and the transitions that take place in our life. So these different expressions, such as Bridget's were again, reminders the way God's working in our life and changing us.

Well, we don't want to change, and we want to shut the door, you know, keep things the same. No, let's try something new. And so off we go.

Yeah. And I think we do often get too wrapped up in is this, are we contextualizing the gospel? Are we appropriating a culture? Are we doing synchronism?

And, like, I feel like we get too wrapped up in some of the terms.

Yeah.

Especially when you consider the whole Jesus movement was just revamping Hebrew religion. Jesus's whole thing was basically appropriating the Hebrew religion to, you know, what I consider a new faith in the new Covenant.

But, like, I just want to shout out one of the books that I found most challenging in my life that I've read. I don't know anything about the author, so I apologize if he's not great. But William A. Darnus, it's insider Jesus, okay.

And he talks about a lot of people who don't like the term Christian who became followers of Jesus in different contexts where they saw Jesus in the Quran or in their Islam faith or in, you know, whatever these other contexts are. And the only they know Christian, that's just people who come in and try and kill you.

But then they find Jesus in this other context, so they become followers of Jesus and how it looks different in all these different contexts. Fascinating read. Really challenging.

If you grew up similar to me with a certain idea that, like, Christians are right and other people are wrong, and if you're. If you find contextualizing and appropriating and all that stuff challenging things to think about. That book's incredibly challenging.

Right? Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's called the Insider Jesus.

Yep.

Yeah, it's Insider Jesus. Theological Reflections on New Christian Movements.

Wow. All right.

Yeah.

Look at you, what you pretty much read.

Yeah, I like it.

Okay.

I liked it. It's been a while since I read it, but.

Yeah.

Which. Anything that has been a while for Josh Ford does need to be revisited.

Yeah. Yes, it was.

That's when it came out. I've probably read it since then. A whole 10 years.

Nine years ago. I was 17.

Well, one. Apparently, it won Christianity Today's Book of the Year. Like, it can't be bad. No, I don't think. Not likely to be bad.

I'll say it's not likely to be bad.

That's a good answer. Not likely to be bad is a good one. So, Robin, who did you.

It was definitely challenging.

Yeah. Who did you intend as the audience for this book, and what are the main lessons that you hope people will come away with after reading it?

Sure. It was.

It was one of those books, as I said, that was on the foundation, built on the foundation of the early church, and it has been overlooked or rejected or, you know, however people might consider Celtic Christianity. What I found.

What I found with the book, as well as with Ireland and Scotland and Celtic Christianity is, again, an understanding and an awareness of the presence of God.

And that emphasis is something that is so important to introduce, especially another generation or a group of people that are uncertain or filled with doubt or have stepped away from God and for whatever reason, have no reason, are not willing to get engaged again with God. There's a. So it's not like it's a book that's, you know, designed to.

To help those who are lost, necessarily, or who are grieving or who are upset with the church. However, there are people out there that are nominal believers or. What do they call them now? Nuns. You know, the ones that they.

They're on the bottom of the List and I don't believe any of this stuff. Yeah, and there's a large portion of that now.

There's also a movement coming back by younger generations that are looking for church and looking for Christianity, but also a desire to not necessarily form their own, like inside the insider Jesus kind of thing, like you were talking about Joshua, but again, the historic aspect of church and the historic aspect of the Celtic Christians going back to 4th century and 5th century and 6th century.

These guys are nuts in terms of sailing boats around, you know, like going to Iona, Columba, you know, I mean, the wars they would have, the battles that took place, I mean, all of that kind of thing.

And yet their call for peace, their call for civilization, their desire for a sense of community and a respect again, for each person was something that is a reason again for my writing that the people that now communicate something for us that we need to hear for today.

Yeah, yeah, Good stuff, good stuff.

Well, one thing we do like to do, as we get near the end of our conversations, we always like to ask people for just a tangible action, something that our listeners could go do.

So before we get to our wrap up or anything, we wanted to ask you, is there one spiritual practice or exercise that you've learned from your studies of the Celtic church that our listeners might be able to try that would help bring them closer together with the whole church today?

Oh, sure. I mean, there's. There's many. And I'm sorry to do this to you, but.

But no, I think if I would pull one that we haven't talked about so far is, it's called Anam Kara, which is soul friend. Have you heard of this? Having a soul friend. Try it.

All right.

Having a soul friend. Yeah. Pardon?

What is it?

Yeah, what is it? It's a soul friend.

You're not just buddies, you're not a girlfriend or boyfriend kind of thing as much as you're really trying to spend time with them on their faith and offer the opportunity to discern, to listen, to hear what's going on in not only their lives, but what perhaps God might be saying, what God might be doing, you know, which is not always a easy thought to come up with. What do you mean, what God's doing? You know, because we're all thinking about what we're doing, what we're saying and what we're communicating.

Well, have you ever tried to flip it over and give God a chance to, you know, set the stage? So an anamkara is a soul friend and is a person who will Sit with you and provide that. Not just patience, but compassion perhaps and appreciation of.

May it be a struggle or a certain tension that's taking place, but it could also be insight and discovery, these kinds of words that again are opening to the faith and allowing God to be real in terms of what they're, they're about.

Right. So if everyone develops an anamkara, you know, finds theirs, how does that change the world? How does that change us in the church?

Has it changed everything?

I think one of the things that we've tried to do at our church and it continues on is to mentor. And Anam Karo would sort of be that tool in your back pocket you can always pull out.

I don't mean it to sound like that, but certainly the need for people who come to church, either be it families or individuals or kicking tires or just kind of sniffing around, but to do something more than, you know, just give them a cup of coffee and say, glad you're here, but is there an opportunity that we can meet and discuss further about what brought you here to church or what, what you're looking for and what ways we can be of support.

And that's again when you start to begin the process of mentoring, which is, is something you want to work with your staff and all who are involved in it. So you're not just a lone Ranger.

Right.

Make sense.

That's another fictional type person.

That's true. Lone ranger on a, on a Celtic.

Pilgrimage would be pretty funny. There you go.

What about Texas Ranger?

Guys? I'm sorry, you're too easy to work with. Yeah.

So we, we do like to do what we call our God moment. We share what God's been doing in our life. Like you were saying, what God's been up to in our lives recently. And it could be anything.

It could be a challenge, a blessing, a moment of worship, whatever the case is, whatever he's been doing in your life. Now let's make Josh go first to give the rest of us enough time to think. So Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Yeah, yeah. It's a compounded one.

Listeners may remember there was a time I was just struggling with just general happiness and then like, you know, I had some prayers, I was doing a little bit better on that. And then we suffered the loss of my mother in law.

Interesting timing and struggling with that and that was pretty recent and now looks like we might be looking at another loss in the family coming up. And you know, it's a challenge. It's a challenge.

But God's seeing me through and have me work on my joy, joy, joy, joy down in my heart right before I was really going to need it. So here's hoping. I worked on it.

Well, I guess right there's hope. That's all we can do for me. My God moment. Cats. God's busy. God's always busy. I just turned 27.

Busy guy, that God, not too long ago.

27.

Yeah.

I'm getting old, old man.

So, so, you know, that's. To me, that's old. It's the oldest I've ever been. So, you know, that brings its own host of new worries and issues and do I need term life insurance?

Am I five years late to have term life insurance? It's a whole thing. But also my grandmother has discovered she has cancer. At this point, she's kind of anti treatment.

So we're gonna enjoy while it lasts and hope and pray that it's easy. So that's kind of where we are and what God's been up to in my life. So, Robin, do you have a God moment for us that's not a downer.

It's like how we just really, like we both just really brought things down.

Like, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna bring it up. It's grandchildren, Grandchildren.

Great.

Thank you.

No, you don't. Wait a while, tj But I can't tell you how exciting they are. And you, someone, Joshua, you were talking about joy, joy, Joy. I mean, those kids are.

They're all about it. And long story short, I took. They were driving me crazy the other night. We had all. We had three of them, boys, girls. Weren't there.

They weren't invited. These were. No, I'm not kidding you. But these guys were just, they didn't want to be with us.

But anyways, I took them to a driving range just to get them out of the house. And one kid was hitting the ball and he threw. He comes up to me a second later and says, how sorry is he? So sorry. I said, what are you sorry about?

He said, I threw my driver over the. On the roof behind us. Oh, yeah, we had to go to the manager. The manager had to come get a ladder, go up and bring them.

You know, kids were ducking and crying and you know, it could have been a pan glass window that he'd gone through, but fortunately that was it. Next day, he was the goalie in a state final down in Elizabethtown, Kentucky, and they won. And he was the star goalie. And I'm telling you, he went.

He In Fact, he said to me, he said, papa, he said these. And it sounded like Charles Dickens. These were some of the most difficult.

Last night was the most difficult time, and today was the best time, you know, when. When he had the goalie and won the trophy and all that kind of stuff.

All that's a way of saying part of where God is for me is reflecting now and in living through and experiencing some of the times these kids have because, you know, I worry about. My kids are now 50 years old, D.J. But, you know, they've got these kids that are 16 and down, and that's a different.

A different ball game when you become a grandparent. I mean, it's like a paradigm shift. You just, you know, thinking less about yourself, more about these other kids.

Yeah. I mean, if he's throwing clubs, what kind of world. He's throwing gloves, he's right where he needs to be. Sounds like he might be a golfer.

What kind of world are we giving him? You know, and. And what can I do to help and all that sort of thing. So I'm there for him, put it that way.

Right. And that's hard. It's hard. But for our outro, please, please consider sharing this episode with a friend or an enemy.

Share with your cousins, especially your cousins.

They need this desperately. Mostly because my cousins largely live in Louisville, Kentucky. I feel like I definitely should share this one.

Yeah, it's all family.

Where about Hood.

It's kind of fun.

They do close.

Yeah. Owensboro, Louisville, Bloomfield. They're all right there.

Fantastic.

Pretty funny.

Joshua gone by sometime.

I hoping to soon.

Okay.

Yeah.

Don't forget me.

Yeah, man.

You could go to our website and purchase one of our T shirts to promote our show. We will accept that in lieu of sharing it with your cousins. But you do have to prove it, so that's going to be hard.

You get extra credit if you buy a T shirt for your cousin.

That's true. That's. That's a great. That's a great dirty Santa gift. You know, let's start pushing that now.

Buy our merch for Dirty Santa, Paul it off on somebody else. But it helps us raise money for podcasting needs and it helps others know the importance of our mission to educate and unite the church. So go to the.

Go to the website. Buy the. Is it called Filioqui shirt. The one with all the symbols on the.

Oh, yeah, I like that one.

Yeah.

I don't think it's called Filly. Ok. I. I think it's like diverse church or something.

It's cool.

I know what you're talking about. Words fill in the gaps of a broken church thing.

Yeah, I like that one. I like that one a lot.

Yeah, me too.

Also, check out some of the other shows on podcast network, including Kung Fu Pizza Party in Friday Night Frights, or if you want something more intense theme with church stuff, my Seminary Life with Brandon Knight. It's a good show. Oh, Theology on the Rocks. Lee and Christie. I haven't shot them out this episode yet. Check that out. Yeah, it's good stuff.

They're great. But we hope you enjoyed it.

Coming up, we'll be interviewing Jason G. Green, the author of Too Precious to Lose and former associate counsel to the Obama administration.

After that, we're gonna have a short break for a week or two and then begin a series on the behind the scenes of ministries from the local church to publishing and further and beyond. There's a lot of scenes together.

I got the pew builders and an organ builder confirmed.

Pretty cool.

Yeah. You want to know how organs get built.

I do. It's very interesting and I've actually, yeah, looked into it quite a bit.

So finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chen is going to be on the show.

Probably. Probably. If someone tells him about it.

Maybe Sam.