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Ellen Rohr: Why It’s Time to Think About Raising Your Prices
Episode 3428th June 2022 • Beyond The Tools • Krystal Hobbs
00:00:00 00:38:01

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Ellen Rohr, The Business Makeover Expert, extensively shares how she turned a sinking business into a profitable one by knowing the practical pieces beyond understanding financial reports.

For the full show notes, head on over to:


https://reflectivemarketing.com/podcast/Ellen-Rohr-Why-Its-Time-to-Think-About-Raising-Your-Prices

Transcripts

Krystal Hobbs 0:04

Welcome to Beyond the Tools, the podcast that helps contractors attract more leads, grow their business, and finally get off the tools. In each episode, you'll discover marketing tactics that work. You'll get actionable insights from other successful contractors, and connect with experts to help you grow. I'm your host, Krystal Hobbs, owner of a social media agency that helps contractors attract and convert more leads. Get ready to take your business to the next level so you can finally enjoy the fruits of your hard labor. Ready, let's go!

Krystal Hobbs 0:46

Hey, contractors, welcome back to Beyond the Tools. We've been talking a lot about money and finances here on the podcast. And it's because my lovely listeners have said that this is content that is really impactful and really helps you to improve your business. I'm your host, Krystal Hobbs. And because of this, I am so excited to introduce today's guest, Ellen Rohr. Ellen nearly sank her husband's plumbing business and that's how she got started in the trades. But ultimately, it seemed there was lots of money moving through, but no money left over at the end of the month. So Ellen figured out with the help of some mentors how to fix and grow successful businesses. And now, she teaches business planning and financial literacy and ultimately helps contractors make businesses simpler and more profitable. Today, she is an owner and president of Zoom Drain franchise LLC, a new franchise concept with 20 locations across the US which is pretty impressive. She's also the author of four unfussy business books: Where did the money go?, How much should I charge?, The Bare Bones Biz Plan, and The Weekend Biz Plan. She also hosts a regular podcast called Beyond the Wall for [phcppros.com](https://www.phcppros.com/). So without further ado, I'm going to introduce Ellen. We are talking about all things financial, and really getting into the nuts and bolts of what you need to be looking at, how to raise your prices, and how to ultimately have a more profitable business. Let's go to it.

Krystal Hobbs 2:40

I am so thrilled to welcome today's guest, Ellen Rohr of Zoom Drain. Ellen, thanks so much for being on the show.

Ellen Rohr 2:47

Hello, so happy to be here. I can't wait to have an enlivened conversation and help people make some money and be successful in business.

Krystal Hobbs 2:57

Absolutely. And Ellen, I think you have an amazing story. I know you get to tell it a lot. But for some of our listeners who may not be familiar with you, how did you get involved in the trades?

Ellen Rohr 3:12

Well, I married into it. I refer to myself as the plumber's wife. When I was growing up my family weren't handy. My dad wasn't handy. So we called people and I didn't know what happened when you flush the toilet or turn on the light switch or the thermostat. I thought all of it was just a miracle. I really didn't give it any thought at all. And then I married my husband, the plumber, and I got turned on to what he does and what his cool friends did. And I started to understand how awesome trades work is as someone who doesn't know how to do any of this stuff, I just have such a tremendous appreciation for people who are willing to keep good water from bad water, wrangle lightning, create weather, all of those things seem really impressive to me. And so that really started me on this path of becoming a champion for the trade starting in my husband's plumbing business once upon a time and to this day.

Krystal Hobbs 4:12

I love that. Amazing. I know you've seen a lot in your experience from consulting and working in the trades yourself that a lot of businesses get stuck that get at one-two, maybe three tracks they get stuck at that Mom and Pop stage and never really grow beyond that. What do you think gets in the way of growth for most businesses in the trades?

Ellen Rohr 4:38

Well, I'm gonna lace my story in because it really is I think typical of what happens in a mom-and-pop shop. So once upon a time, I married my husband, the plumber. And I have my own job. I think what he and his partner are doing here is great. They have this cool business and I love them and then my husband's partner dies. He's at age 33, works himself into a stress-induced health crisis, and literally punches out and I bring that up a lot because it just that was impactful to me. This should have been avoided, like, how did you work yourself into an early grave? Literally, that seems to me what had happened. And so it was at that point that I said to my husband, “Well, let me quit my real job (the one with the vacation and insurance and salary) I'll quit that and I'll come work with you. I'll count the money, you turn the wrenches, we'll get rich, it'll be fine.” And it was really, really awful. So I've lived that experience of just where you sacrifice your relationship, your health, your time, your money for this business, and it just wasn't worth it. That was certainly my first foray into home services. And I bet the trades are really punctuated heavily with those businesses, there is money to be made. But overall, I still think that the trades are very poverty based. And there's a lot of heartbreak in these small businesses and I have lived it. That's why I'm here today is that I found somebody smarter than me, and they grabbed me by the chin and they told me it could be better. So I ended up writing a letter to someone who'd written an article in a magazine, trade magazines are terrific, or online blogs, podcasts like this, right? These are really, really great moves for you as a business owner, because people who figured a few things out, are going to be very generous with their information, and they'll show up on the podcast and tell you some things. And that's what happened to me. I met my mentor Frank Blau on the pages of a plumbing trade magazine once upon a time, and I wrote him a letter. Dear Mr. Blau, please help me. The first paragraph was a reach for help, very humble. And then the next two pages, I told him why everything he was about to suggest to me would not work: not in my market, not with my cheap customers, my good for nothing guys like a whine, and complain, I just made it clear that I wasn't willing to change or do anything. And he actually called me up and just the first words he said to me were “Honey, you have your head so” and then he described where my head was. I ended up in tears and I hung up on him and I ended up calling him back the next day. And just like pat in hand saying, I’ve done wrong, I want to learn how to do better. At that point, too, and this is important, I was willing to go out of business, not do this, go get a job. The fear was gone because the pain of the current condition was so great. They say you'll change when the pain of the current condition exceeds the fear of change and that's exactly where I was in this situation. My husband too, like, I don’t want to even do this anymore, like, we had had it up to here. So it was at that point that I really had nothing to lose when he suggested, “Why don't you quintuple your prices? Why don't you figure out your asset from your elbow?”, he took me under his wing, and he was a very tough mentor. And it was just what I needed at the time.

So fully expecting no one to call us and everything to blow up, I raised my prices as far as I could have imagined. We went from $30 an hour to essentially $150 an hour within a couple of months. And I just kept raising my prices and just started to make more money and pay off debt and buy some options and all that stuff. And it was the right thing to do. And just to fast forward to today, right now, I'm sure in Canada as well as the US, gas prices are going up, the supply chain shortages are hitting absolutely every sector of the market, and certainly, you're going to be impacting tradespeople that you got to raise your prices now. Don’t wait. You can't absorb those kinds of price increases. So that's the kind of understanding that I got from my first best mentor when it came to my business and then I felt like I had been born again. I just became like a missionary about it. I started sharing my story. I started writing for the same magazine that Frank had written for and since then, I've written four books, I write for trade magazines including PHCP Pros right now, which is worth your while for sure, and podcasts, like, I love sharing what I've learned. Of course, I apply all this to Zoom Drain, the business I work in currently, so I'm in the trenches every day too. But what I learned and what I'd like to communicate today is that business basics are a requirement. If you are going to own your own business, you can't put your head in the sand. You can't hide behind platitudes, like, if you do what you love, the money will follow. You are required to be a good financial steward or go work for someone who is. You don't have to do this business thing at all. But my encouragement is, if you want to hang up your own shingle and be the master of your own destiny, then learn a few basics and it's going to help you and the great people who work with you. It's gonna help y'all out. So that's why we're here today. I don't know if that's enough of a Bible. But I just want you to know what my motivation is.

Krystal Hobbs:

Absolutely. I'm sure a lot of our listeners are hearing you and saying, I do have my head in the sand, I'm not being a good financial steward for my business, where's one place that they can start, like, what would you advise someone on the very first thing that they should do?

Ellen Rohr:

I love that you're saying that and may I also underline that it is with no judgment, only love that I'm here. And I tell my story, just so I wasn't born smart. In fact, I was super resistant for way too long. So the point of power is now it doesn't matter if you've been stuck for 20 years, I think, where some people like, what should you do right away, be willing to let go, the fact that it took you this long to get here. Okay, doesn't matter. The point of power is now the present is all we have. And a lot of people will spend time either defending why you don't understand how cheap my customers are, how bad my guys aren't, like I was doing in that letter to Frank like that, oh, my gosh, what if I've been wrong, so what, and, I should have moved faster, doesn't matter, there's still time. And Frank calls this taking the medicine when you just make this decision. I'm going to figure out how to read a balance sheet and a profit loss, I'm going to keep score in the game of business, and I'm going to get real with the money. When you make that decision, that change can happen so fast: you can turn around a pile of debt, you can start stockpiling money, you can pay your guys what they deserve, you can make some mistakes and you can give money back to customers you blew it with. If you're writing things down, write this down, money buys options. That's all it's good for. And I'm getting goosebumps talking about it, like, it just makes life so much easier. I've been poor and I've been rich, and rich is better that it just is easier. So I would find a mentor, and have them help me learn how to read a balance sheet and a profit loss. So where would you find this mentor? Maybe your accountant, maybe you go to your accounting and you say, I haven't really been paying attention to the work that you do, would you sit side by side in a zoom call or literally, and let's go down the balance sheet and the profit-loss line by line and maybe you could teach me what this is. Early on when I was working with Frank, I did that with my accountant and her name is Brenda, I love her more than life. And so itself, she lived in a teepee at the time, just this hippie chick, I loved her so much. And I think if she had not been really receptive to this, I never would have had the career I had because I was so insecure about it, I was so uninterested. I just don't, I'm not naturally someone who is drawn to spreadsheets and stuff, right? So she really helped me. So step one, I would say is to get over yourself. And then right on the heels of that, find someone who can help you learn these basics. Your accountant’s a good place to start, another business owner with whom you don't compete, that might lead you in the direction of a group. I work with Howard Partridge in the inner circle, and an association can be so powerful that you can talk to other business owners in a group setting with whom you don't compete, which makes it a lot easier. And then those folks can either turn you on to a cool accountant or they may sit elbow with you.

Krystal Hobbs:

Absolutely. And that really resonates with me, too. I'm not someone naturally drawn to numbers, and I went through a lot of accountants. But I would say if your accountant isn't willing to take the time to teach you about your own numbers, you might want another accountant.

Ellen Rohr:

Did you have to kiss a few frogs?

Krystal Hobbs:

I sure did. But my accountant now is amazing, helped us switch to a new system that gave us more transparency into our numbers. And now it's easy but it was years of working very closely together to be able to clean up all of our books.

Ellen Rohr:

What was your motivation?

Krystal Hobbs:

I think it was feeling dumb, honestly, people asking me questions that I didn't have the answer to. And I'm not ashamed to be, like, I don't know. But I realized that that lack of knowledge should be a kick in the pants to go get the answers.

Ellen Rohr:

Why didn't we learn this stuff in grade school? I don't know. And that's why I like preaching about it because your kids will be so much better off. There's a great book called Rich Dad, Poor Dad, by Robert Kiyosaki, and then his follow-up book, The Cashflow Quadrant, I think is even better. But his whole theory is that rich kids learn from their parent's stuff that poor kids do not. And I even grew up as a rich kid. But my dad was still not very educated about it. And so our fortune was quite fragile and was very stressful to grow up in an environment like that. So if you learn these basics, I think the assumption is that people are smarter than they are. Like when you said I felt dumb there. I had that. I thought everybody else knew it but I just didn't know it, like, they must know it. They're driving a new truck. I said to Frank, well, they must be successful: they've got a new truck, got a suit on at the event. He said, “They could be in debt, you don't know. Their wife might have won the lottery, you don't know.” I was struggling with that same thing, like, I was the only one who didn't know. And what I found is financial illiteracy is rampant and it's time to help each other out.

Krystal Hobbs:

Absolutely. So let's say, they find a mentor, whether that's an accountant or an association, or a fellow business owner, got a better idea of what's going on with the balance sheet and profit and loss, how often should they be looking at those statements? What are some of the practical pieces beyond just understanding what they are?

Ellen Rohr:

Okay, so the first thing to do is to figure out how to run a balance sheet and profit loss and your mentor or a good bookkeeper or QuickBooks expert. I suggest QuickBooks Online, there are different accounting programs. But QuickBooks Online is like that Coca-Cola of accounting programs, it works, it's fine. A lot of people know how to use it. So I recommend that and so there are two there, this is good news, there's only two financial reports, the balance sheet, and the profit loss. Everything else is a mash-up or a subset. So you got to just learn those two if that helps. Because you think, oh, there's all this stuff. There's not really all this stuff even though in the world of high finance, we have investors at Zoom Drain, and I'm dealing in a much higher level of accounting, and they're still two things: profits, and cash. What is the balance sheet? What's the profit loss, that's it. There aren't that many moving parts to this whole thing which is terrific. So you want to be able to run those reports. Now, to your point, how often? The very best business owners I know are going to run a balance sheet and profit loss weekly, and you want it up to date every week. And why is that? Well, while the month is on, you want to know the score so you could make changes before the game is over. So if you're not getting your financials for May, until mid-June, well, the game's over, you lost the money. What if within two days of the close that you were, $1,000 away from your best month ever, or hitting budget for the first time or something like that, you'll change your behavior. Another great book that absolutely had a huge impact on my life was Jack Stack and The Great Game of Business. And in it, he talks about the tenants of open-book management. So when I started making these changes and showing these numbers to my guys, I did it because I didn't know how else to convince them that we needed to raise our prices. And this is what's going on behind the scenes, but there was actually a term for it open-book management, and I'm a big fan, letting your team in on the game. Daddy told me once upon a time, never talked money with people, don't share your financials with anybody, all of it was a big secret, and I think that's very problematic. I think that's why women make less than men. I think that's why there's so much inequity when it comes to pay. And also your frontline people are the ones making decisions that are going to impact those reports. So wouldn't it be nice to connect the dots? So, we have a lot of overtime, our profitability goes down, and those are things that your team could help you with, like, if you could connect the dots there, I know I'm jumping around. So let me go back.

Ellen Rohr:

So you're gonna go through. And once a week is your ultimate standard, if you're not there yet clean it up through last year. So I want to talk about getting to KFP or known financial position. So chances are good that when you dig into the balance sheet, and the profit loss, whatever you've got, whatever mess your last bookkeeper left you, whatever is missing, because no one's been doing the data entry for a while, chances are good, it's either messy or not current. So your first step is getting to know your financial position or KFP. And that means that your accounting is up to date, it's right, and you understand it. And that's a bit of a journey. It's like cleaning the back of your truck, right? The shelves, the items on the shelves are everything in the right spot. Unless you're diligent, the back of your truck is messy and your accounting is messy, right? So it's the same thing. Once you get it clean and tidy, it never has to get messy again. It just could be a matter of a little bit of update at the end of the day, right? Same thing, same concept. So getting to a known financial position is where you start. And then you're gonna go, “Oh, this is terrible. The numbers stink. My sales minus expenses is a negative number. I've been operating at a loss.” And if you operate at a loss for a while, you run out of cash. And when you run out of cash, you have to borrow money. So you've probably got some debt. This isn't that complicated. So how do you fix it? Well, your sales minus expenses have to be a hearty positive number, which will be reflected in your assets, and your cash, and you use that additional cash to pay down your debt, and you turn it around. The only way to fix your financials, write this down, is to get really, really profitable and take it in cash. Profits and cash fix everything. It's not hard. When I started to see these moving pieces, I thought this is just a game, this isn't hard at all. And this idea: Well, I can't raise my prices, you don't know the economy is so tough or my customers. You can't believe what people spend money on. They spend money on all kinds of stupid things. So we want to make sure they're spending money on the right things, which is to make sure there's a roof over their head, that there's electricity at their fingertips, that good water is kept from bad water, that plumbers have prevented more diseases that doctors will ever cure on the survivability construct of mankind, tradespeople are at the top.

So another thing to keep in mind as you go through this, like, if your stomach's hurting, listening to me, I don't want to raise my prices, I really don't want to know, if I do it I love the money will follow and all that nonsense. The problem with our industry, it's another thing Frank taught me, is a self-esteem problem. So in school, the smart kids are going to wear a tie. And the not-so-smart kids are going to wear a patch with their names on them. Do you see how this starts? And so and even like, why are there no women in this industry, because we really have done everything we could to keep them from this industry. Oh, it's gross, it's dirty, it's heavy. However, you can work independently, you can make over 100 grand a year, and you can have an honorable career improving the survivability of mankind on the planet. We have some work to do in terms of that. But again, I digress. Like just as far as you're going to discover these things as you move through the phases. But you're going to recap, get over yourself, find a mentor, get yourself to a nonfinancial position, and then you're going to look at the reality of your financials and you're not going to like them. So then you change it, how do you change it? That's where budgeting comes in. And budgeting, budgeting is a tough word. It sounds like dieting, deprivation, and no fun, but it's really just financial goal setting or blueprinting mapping out. If your sales minus expenses equals a negative number. What if we painted a better picture? So we created a mock-up of profit and loss where sales minus expenses equal a lot of money. That's all budgeting is. It's just that imagine what would I rather have and in the creative process is to think it and then link it or type it. And then now you've got something to shoot for. So like suppose it is 500,000 last year and you lost 100,000. Okay, suppose all of our costs, they've just about the same, but we doubled our prices. And now we did a million in sales and now we have 300,000 or 400,000 on the bottom line, like whatever you double your prices, that extra income from the sales is going to drop to the bottom line if all your expenses are the same. And now we have some wherewithal. So could you double your prices? Well, yes, yes. 100%, you're the boss, you're in charge. No; but my competitors charge less. Then you got to be better. And this is what we say at Zoom Drain if you show up clean, sober, on time, dressed right, and use a checklist. Clean, sober, on time, dressed right, and use a checklist - you can charge five times 10 times what your competitors can charge.

Ellen Rohr:

The bars are pretty low. You're not taking FedEx out. You're not taking Disney out. You're taking out that guy. And maybe he'll come work for you someday. But you can't be bound by the inertia of our industry. Let me stop for a minute because I know you have a lot to say on this topic to make this a conversation.

Krystal Hobbs:

I love it. And I think I've got a friend kind of going through this process right now. So I'm picturing him as we're talking here. I know a lot of business owners will let's say inch up their prices, like gradually, would you recommend that or you just go right to that new number, whatever that's gotta be?

Ellen Rohr:

I think one of the shocking things about my evolution as a business expert, has been that smarts are not helpful. Being smart is not necessarily an advantage. For example, like if you read books about Ray Kroc and McDonald's, Ray Kroc was not the smartest guy you're ever gonna make. There's a great quote by Robert Jarvik, and it goes, that leaders are visionaries with no concept of the odds against them. Okay, so it doesn't, the smartest people I know, think so many steps ahead of that they hit a rock wall and they don't do anything. Do you see where I'm going? Like, they figure it out. What if you didn't figure it out? So in my experience, as a business expert, I've come up with all these spreadsheets and stuff, here's how you come up with a selling price out of all your cost of doing business, you do it from your budget, you divide all those costs from your budget by the number of hours you could possibly sell, that’s your breakeven per hour, you charge more than that. I've got spreadsheets up the wazoo on this. And I've said to some guys you could triple your prices, and they just do and they make more money. So to your question, sure, double or triple and just do it. Now, if you can't do that, because of your personality map, your DiSC profile, or whatever it is, then you can do the spreadsheets for sure. And certainly inching your prices up is better. But is it enough? I think to like, what would you give up? If you're willing to lose everything, you might be able to gain something. In other words, how attached are you to losing money? How attached are you to the current condition? Because if you would let it go and realize you could go work for someone else. What? Would that be a loser? Not necessarily. I can't tell you how many times I've told my clients that they could make 10 times what you're making working for someone else. Like, that's an honorable decision. This business with your friend, too, sometimes it starts to feel like the business is his identity. When the business is just a car, get in the car, get out of the car, get another car, fix the car, and abandon the car. It's just a vehicle. It isn't you. And I think again, the psychological stuff is what gets in our way. This lack of self-esteem is identifying too tightly with this business. That is not a reflection of your worth as a human being. Though the math is easy, it's those psychological issues, that are gonna get in the way of us making a decent decision on some of these things. So is raising your prices at all a better idea than not? Yes. Could you do it more dramatically? You could. Will you lose all your customers? You won't. If you are going to charge more, here's some encouragement, then be better. Show up, clean, sober, on time, dressed right, and use a checklist - that's where that came from. When we first raised our prices, my husband's company, I bought everybody shirts, clean shirts - that was our standard race. And this replaced one of our guys who used to wear a shirt that said, “Kill them all. Let God sort them out to work.” Okay, so that's where I started. So we got shirts, just clean shirts. And that was kind of just a psychological move in the right direction. It was also a literal move in the right direction because we were raising our overall standards. If we looked better, clean, sober on time dressed right, and used checklists. So those are the things where a group comes in. If you were to just double your prices, what skills do you have to communicate the value of your services? Maybe you should take a sales class. Very often people will tell me I can't raise my prices and I'll say, “Well, have you taken a sales class ever? Have you listened to a podcast on sales ever?” And they say no. Well, I bet Krystal has some lined up for you.

Krystal Hobbs:

I think that's so true. I would say with some of our clients in the trades, like they may do training to improve the technical skill of what they're doing or in some cases, business growth, but I don't think I've ever heard anybody really doing much in terms of sales training and looking to.

Ellen Rohr:

Oh no, I'm not a salesperson, I don't want to sell them anything. Well, why not? Just let's be nicer, offer good stuff, I guess, to the way I grew up, we bought things from people. I'm a homeowner, the service provider comes over and they say, I can do a crappy job, and we can get by, or I can take a lot of your money and we're really going to fix this thing for good you'll never see me again. Give me the good stuff. Don't withhold the good stuff from me. I want the nicest one. I want the good stuff. And so often tradespeople are averse to even offering those things. But that's again, ties back to self-esteem, ties back to they could probably do it themselves, they don't feel comfortable with the prices - that's where sales training, belonging to a group, learning from other businesses is just so important. And the service you provide with the podcast is just priceless. Because that's where you're going to get fresher ideas and allow them to sit with you. Even if they make you a little uncomfortable at first, there's a better way for sure.

Krystal Hobbs:

Absolutely. So Ellen, in your husband's business that y'all know sank, but then you got some help, you got a hold of your P&L, your balance sheet, got those new uniforms, and raise your prices, how long did it take you guys to turn things around and to see an impact?

Ellen Rohr:

That's a good question. Okay. So going back, this is going back like 30 years. Like took the medicine with Frank. And it took me a bit probably took me six months to even like pay attention. Then I started going through the process sitting down with my accountant fighting, kicking, screaming, whining, and complaining the whole way. And after about 11 months of this, I finally remember having this moment in time where I just thought, Okay, I'll do it. I've got the budget, raise my prices, I'll keep an eye on the money, no one's gonna do it but me, this is my stewardship. Literally, a month later, we were better. And a year from then all the debt was gone, and the same amount of money was now profit. It was literally a year to get to go because I wasted so much time, a month actually putting the systems in place. And then it just got better, better, better, better. Every month got better. I got better. And then since then I just haven't looked back at Zoom Drain right now. Our overall company is over 40 million in sales. We're just getting started. These basics still apply. I look at the same type of stuff all the time that I did, then once you learn this, it's just scorekeeping in that as the Great Game of Business, and it can be so much fun. And I'm kind of dyslexic and I have the attention span of a gnat. I'm not naturally suited to this. So if I can do it, you can do it. It's worth it. Hopefully listening to us today, you're encouraged to just take the first step is to talk to somebody, admit you're powerless, get yourself into a group and start walking the path and be kind to yourself throughout the process. It took you a minute to get here. It's gonna take you a minute to straighten things out. But once you do, it should move really fast. Once you get priced right, things start getting really exciting. Really good.

Krystal Hobbs:

So, Ellen, I know our listeners are going to want to learn more about you, where can they connect with you or learn more about financial literacy and what you're up to?

Ellen Rohr:

Well, check out ellenrohr.com. That's my name. And I give away a free copy of where did the money go, I've sold hundreds of 1000s of copies of this book. And I just, it's just basic accounting for the business owner who wants to get profitable. And you can get the PDF for free, you put your name and email address and you're on my list, you can get off my list if you don't like it. But that's where you'll hear from us and the information that we're making available and classes and seminars and that kind of thing. Or if you're interested in Zoom Drain, now we're not open in Canada at this time, we are open throughout the US. If you just want to see what we're up to our website is fantastic [zoomdrainfranchise.com](https://zoomdrainfranchise.com/), you can check out what we've got going there and the promises that we make to customers, and how we exist as a premium price provider of drain cleaning, you might learn a thing or two there be inspired. So I'm happy to be of service to you and Krystal, I liked you from the first minute we met and I'm honored to be on your podcast today.

Krystal Hobbs:

Thank you so much. I know that our listeners are just gonna get a ton of value from this and you give them hope, and make it easy and approachable to get started on this. And I think that's why.

Ellen Rohr:

I do what I do. I benefited from the kindness of strangers throughout my whole life. I'm gonna cry. I just had people reach out to me and give me a hand. So I'm honor-bound to do that.

Krystal Hobbs:

Amazing. Well, we're gonna put all those links in the show notes at [beyondthetoolspodcast.com](http://beyondthetoolspodcast.com/) or on the platform that you're listening on. You'll see all that there and you'll be able to connect with Ellen. Ellen, thank you so much. I'm so appreciative of your time and everything you share with us today.

Ellen Rohr:

Thank you.

Krystal Hobbs:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Beyond the Tools. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe, rate, and review wherever you get your podcast. I'd love it if you could also share this episode with a fellow contractor who is ready to get off the tools and grow their business. And if you want more leads, sign up for our email list at reflectivemarketing.com where we share weekly marketing insights that you can't get anywhere else. I'm Krystal Hobbs and I hope you'll join me on the next episode of Beyond the Tools. See you next time!