Dams remain one of the ultimate demonstrations of human power over nature. Wild rivers can be tamed to deliver energy for industry, lakes for recreation, and water for agriculture. But severing the link between land and sea has come with grave ecological costs. The impact of dams on salmon populations has been especially obvious and painful.
This is part one of a two-part series on dam removals. In this episode, we return to the Klamath river to examine the fierce conflict (and unlikely partnerships) in pursuit of the deconstruction of 4 major dams.
Find shownotes, sources, and musical credits at https://www.futureecologies.net/listen/fe1-9-swimming-upstream
In November of 2022, the US Federal Energy Regulatory Commission approved the removal of the 4 key dams along the Klamath River - a huge victory for salmon and for the Indigenous tribes and environmental groups that had worked for over two decades towards this end. The dams are expected to be removed by the end of 2024 in what will be the largest dam removal effort in history. Scientists hope to study the impacts of dam removal on the Klamath river’s ecology and salmon populations. We’ll continue to follow this story as it unfolds and we’ll let you know what happens.
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[Water rushing over river rocks, steady guitar begins to
Music:fade in, before a spash, after which, watery-guitar music
Music:underscores the audio]
Ryan Hilperts:You look at, restorationists look at the
Ryan Hilperts:landscape and they think, they dream on it, they dream about
Ryan Hilperts:ecologically what could be happening in that place. And so
Ryan Hilperts:it's this kind of foresight, you know, you do a visioning, you're
Ryan Hilperts:visioning something. So, if you could actually vision in
whatever place:What would you like to see in terms of human
whatever place:relations on a place in 20 years? And then backcast and
think:What seeds do we need to be planting right now?
Music:[Bass tones break through, then music becomes more
Music:pensive]
Ryan Hilperts:Part of, you know, part of how we know each
Ryan Hilperts:other is through telling stories from our lives and the way we
Ryan Hilperts:have stories to tell us that we have experiences. You know,
Ryan Hilperts:and-and we learn a lot through storied knowledge. When I was
Ryan Hilperts:doing interviews, I found that when people started speaking in
Ryan Hilperts:metaphor, that's when stuff got really interesting, because we
Ryan Hilperts:use metaphor to talk about things that have truth larger
Ryan Hilperts:than just the thing that we're talking about. And when people
Ryan Hilperts:started to describe stories in real detail, right, and their
Ryan Hilperts:emotion came into it, they get more creative with their
Ryan Hilperts:language. And when people use metaphor, or they start to use
Ryan Hilperts:that kind of language they're pointing to almost like a poetic
Ryan Hilperts:knowledge of the world that's rooted in wisdom, right? You
Ryan Hilperts:know, in that, in that we build a weapon, and a reciprocity,
Ryan Hilperts:with land and water when we when we know it in the way that it's
Ryan Hilperts:the character in our stories, and we're a character in it's
Ryan Hilperts:story.
Music:[Guitar breaks through, strongly underscores following
Music:dialogue]
Ryan Hilperts:I realize I'm just so very into kind of the
Ryan Hilperts:symbolic, but I think dam removals are just the most
Ryan Hilperts:compelling restoration project, because it is-they are just so-
Ryan Hilperts:it's such pure symbolism; you know? In sort of a romantic way.
Ryan Hilperts:But it's just-I mean-terms of a, in terms of the kind of
Ryan Hilperts:restoration that can capture people's imaginations; I just
Ryan Hilperts:think that they're-they're so powerful for that reason.
Music:[Guitar cords play, building momentum, playing over
Music:recorded dialogue]
Adam Huggins:Ready?
Mendel Skulski:Ready.
Adam Huggins:1-2-3:
am Huggins and Mendel Skulski:[simultaneously] Jump! [spalsh]
Music:[Stops, river water returns as soundscape]
Adam Huggins:For a long time in North America, especially in the
Adam Huggins:West, we've told ourselves a singular, unshakeable story
Adam Huggins:about dams. In many ways, it's a love story...
Music:[Ride of the Valkyries enters and underscores]
Adam Huggins:...full of romance and conflict, usually pitting
Adam Huggins:the indomitable will of man, against the chaos of nature.
Adam Huggins:Wild rivers which epitomize the unpredictable, untapped
Adam Huggins:resource, are transformed by human ingenuity for the
Adam Huggins:betterment of all. By constructing dams, we can
Adam Huggins:produce clean energy for burgeoning communities, create
Adam Huggins:recreational areas for boaters and weekenders, and provide a
Adam Huggins:dependable water source for industry and agriculture.
Mendel Skulski:And construct dams we did. Beginning in the
Mendel Skulski:1890s, accelerating through Roosevelt's New Deal, spreading
Mendel Skulski:out to every corner of the world and culminating in the
Mendel Skulski:monumental Three Gorges Dam on the Yangtze River in China,
Mendel Skulski:humanity is smack dab in the center of a dam building craze
Mendel Skulski:that shows little signs of abating. Even now, a new era of
Mendel Skulski:dam construction has begun worldwide, fueled by the demand
Mendel Skulski:for clean energy, and the hunt for the few remaining wild
Mendel Skulski:rivers, yet to be tamed and harnessed. The controversial
Mendel Skulski:Site C dam on the Peace River in Northern British Columbia is
Mendel Skulski:just one example of the latest wave of mega projects across the
Mendel Skulski:globe.
Adam Huggins:This story of man's triumph over nature, and
Adam Huggins:the marvels of human ingenuity and audacity, is a powerful one,
Adam Huggins:deeply rooted in our collective imagination. But it isn't the
Adam Huggins:only story being told about dams here in North America.
Mendel Skulski:Right now, up and down the Pacific Coast and
Mendel Skulski:beyond, there's a growing awareness of the ecological and
Mendel Skulski:social costs of dam construction. Costs that, until
Mendel Skulski:recently, have been overshadowed by the sheer marvel all of our
Mendel Skulski:technological achievements. And little by little, bit by bit,
Mendel Skulski:this second story is eroding away the foundations of the
Mendel Skulski:first. Eating away of its themes, its plot points,
Mendel Skulski:creating cracks, which then become fissures, until . . .
Adam Huggins:. . . [Warrior-like] The floodgates
Adam Huggins:open!
Music:[Explosive water breaking free and spilling forth, Ride of
Music:the Valkyries fades out beneath it]
Mendel Skulski:And damn metaphors aside, all hell breaks
Mendel Skulski:loose.
Music:[Intense, pulsating music underscores]
Media:[Someone overseeing a meeting] I think we've seen how
Media:strong the passions are today about, uh, about water and . . .
Media:water is our lifeblood. [Unspecified Speaker] What do I
Media:think of this? I think it's a dam[n] scam! [First speaker]
Media:This has gone on, and on, for years. [New Unspecified Speaker]
Media:This bright idea here, has the potential of destroying our way
Media:of life and the economy. [News Anchor] Native American tribes,
Media:farmers, fishermen and conservation groups battled each
Media:other over access and control of scarce water supplies in the
Media:region. [New Unspecified Speaker] Billion dollars of
Media:taxpayer and ratepayer costs, all driven, we're told, by the
Media:best available science. [New Unspecified Speaker] It's really
Media:a tragedy and-and it's government imposed. [New
Media:Unspecified Speaker] Intentional falsification of scientific
Media:data. [New Unspecified Speaker] Reliable, sustainable, low cost
Media:power. [Protestor, through megaphone] 68,000 dead salmon
Media:can't be wrong. Dams kill fish! [New Protestor, through
Media:megaphone] There's no salmon and our river. We all grew up eating
Media:fish, catching fish, and now theres nothing! [New Unspecified
Media:Speaker, on the verge of tears] It's not getting any better!
Media:[Protestors Chanting] Bring down the dams! Bring down the dams!
Media:[Speaker overseeing meeting] I respect the strength of your
Media:convictions. We agree that decisions like this must, must,
Media:be done in tandem and in concert with Indigenous Peoples, but
Media:those challenges have passed.
Adam Huggins:So, if restoring a landscape, or a river, requires
Adam Huggins:restory-ing that landscape, or river, what are the stories that
Adam Huggins:we're going to tell to ourselves, and to our kids, and
Adam Huggins:grandkids about dams?
Mendel Skulski:In this two part series, we're going to look at
the stories of two rivers:one in Washington, and one in
the stories of two rivers:Northern California. And what the decades long battles to
the stories of two rivers:restore them can tell us about the future of rivers and the
the stories of two rivers:communities that rely on them. This is part one, which we've
the stories of two rivers:decided to call:
Adam Huggins:Swimming Upstream.
Music:[Pensive, electronic music continues]
Introduction voiceover:Broadcasting from Vancouver, British
Introduction voiceover:Columbia, on the unseeded territories of the Musqueam,
Introduction voiceover:Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh Peoples, this is Future
Introduction voiceover:Ecologies. Where your hosts, Adam Huggins and Mendel Skulski,
Introduction voiceover:explore the future of human habitation on planet earth
Introduction voiceover:through ecology, design, and sound.
Music:[Pensive electronic music fades out]
Bill Tripp:[Voice tuned watery, eternal, above the sound of a
Bill Tripp:running stream] I'm from the spawning ground: it's the one
Bill Tripp:that we all know. At one time or another, we all swam from the
Bill Tripp:same hole. That's when my water broke, that's when my father's
Bill Tripp:broke. He said, when I was young, I was told know how the
Bill Tripp:water tastes, know which way it flows, feel the wind, know which
Bill Tripp:way it blows, learn from the animals, the birds and the bees.
Say a prayer for the homeground:
:the rivers, the rocks, the
Say a prayer for the homeground:
:mountains the oceans and trees.
Say a prayer for the homeground:
:[Indigenous Music
Music:[A thunderstorm break
Mendel Skulski:Imagine for a second, that you are Pacific
Mendel Skulski:salmon, far out at sea. You're King Salmon, also known as a
Mendel Skulski:Chinook; Oncorhynchus , meaning hooked nose in Greek, chacha, a
Mendel Skulski:Russian reference to Chinook. And I want you to imagine that
Mendel Skulski:you're a king among King Salmon. You're five feet long, 100
Mendel Skulski:pounds. And you've been terrorizing smaller fishes and
Mendel Skulski:zooplankton in the North Pacific for over four years, since just
Mendel Skulski:a few weeks after you hatched in a riffle, up some distant river
Mendel Skulski:Every nautical mile you've swu has taken you further an
Mendel Skulski:further from that river, ou into the unknown, the majesti
Mendel Skulski:Northern Pacific Ocean. You'v spent years gorging on krill an
Mendel Skulski:copepods, herring, and rockfish you've grown, you're plump, fat
Mendel Skulski:and swimming free
Music:[Indigenous Music fades out, replaced by tembling,
Music:creeking music]
Mendel Skulski:But something feels missing: you're the only
Mendel Skulski:one of your hundreds of brothers and sisters who have survived
this far:most were eaten by something long ago. And your
this far:parents died weeks before you hatched: you're completely
this far:alone. But from the depths of that hole in your fishy heart,
this far:there comes a faint remembrance. It stirs within you,
this far:transforming your sadness, into conviction, your despondency, to
this far:determination, your paralysis into motion. You are beginning
this far:to great migration, the defining event of your existence, the
this far:test of your strength and your fat reserves. You are returning
this far:from whence you came.
Adam Huggins:It's still a bit of a mystery how salmon do this,
Adam Huggins:but a recent publication on Sockeye Salmon in the Fraser
Music:[Tembling music resolves]
Music:River suggests that salmon navigate their way towards the
Music:river they were born in usi g, at least in part, the E
Music:rth's magnetic field. From the e, it appears they use olfacto
Music:y and other sensory clues t find their natal stream. But t
Music:is is a mystery for anothe day. Today, I'm going to ask
Music:ou to join me one more time n the Northwest corner of Cali
Music:ornia known as the Klamath Kno . And this time, Senator Jeff M
Music:rkley of Oregon is going to h lp me tell you all abo
Music:[Vibrant, "good-ol-days" fiddle music underscores]
Media:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] Mr. President, I rise
Media:tonight to tell you a tale about the Klamath Basin and share a
Media:little bit of the vision. First, let me tell you about the
Media:magical place that is the Klamath Basin. It's in Southern
Media:Oregon and Northern California. It's an area of the country that
Media:is rich with agricultural resources and exceptional
Media:wildlife populations.
Adam Huggins:And here to tell the story of the Klamath River,
Adam Huggins:local resident Erica Terrance.
Erica Terrence:I'm Erica Terrence and I was born and
Erica Terrence:raised on the Salmon River, which is 15 miles from here, up
Erica Terrence:river.
Adam Huggins:Erica is also the Outreach and Development
Adam Huggins:Coordinator for the Mid Klamath Watershed Council,
Adam Huggins:affectionately known as MKWC [Mik-wic].
Erica Terrence:The Klamath River Watershed starts in
Erica Terrence:Oregon, the headwaters are near Crater Lake and up in the Spray
Erica Terrence:and Williamson and Wood Rivers, near Klamath Falls area,
Erica Terrence:peloquin area, and it's really volcanic up there.
Adam Huggins:Volcanic as in, the Southern end of the Cascades
Adam Huggins:Volcanic Range, which extends from British Columbia in the
Adam Huggins:north, down through Western Washington and Oregon, to Lassen
Adam Huggins:National Park in California.
Erica Terrence:Actually, that's part of what gives the water and
Erica Terrence:the upper Klamath is character, that was really good for Spring
Erica Terrence:Chinook Salmon. But mainly what you find is a lot of farming and
Erica Terrence:ranching communities up there.
Media:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] The basin contains
Media:approximately 1400 family farms and ranches encompasses over
Media:200,000 acres of farmland irrigated with water from the
Media:Klamath River and the Klamath Lake.
Adam Huggins:These farming and ranching communities live mostly
Adam Huggins:in what is referred to as, "The Upper Basin".
Erica Terrence:From a geographic perspective, I mean,
Erica Terrence:we often say the Klamath is-is an upside down river basin,
Erica Terrence:because unlike most river basins, it's, you know, pretty
Erica Terrence:flat and pretty deserty up in the top, and the further down
Erica Terrence:you go, the more densely vegetated, the wetter, the more
Erica Terrence:narrow the river canyon.
Music:[Jumpy fiddle music is slowly overtaken by water
Music:running over rocks]
Adam Huggins:As the river flows out of the arid plateau of the
Adam Huggins:Upper Basin, it descends through a series of mountain ranges
Adam Huggins:known collectively as the North Coast or Klamath Ranges of
Adam Huggins:California. This includes the Marble Mountains, the Trinity
Adam Huggins:Alps, and the Siskiyous. This whole region is famous for its
Adam Huggins:incredible botanical diversity, and the lower basin is really
Adam Huggins:rugged, remote country. We've actually been there before in
Adam Huggins:Future Ecologies, in our recent mini-series "On Fire". So the
Adam Huggins:Klamath cuts its way through these mountains, until it
Adam Huggins:reaches the Pacific.
Erica Terrence:And down near the mouth, you don't have a
Erica Terrence:really broad river delta, you have still a pretty tight little
Erica Terrence:bottleneck.
Adam Huggins:When Erica says that the Klamath watershed is
Adam Huggins:upside down, what she means is that usually a river's
Adam Huggins:headwaters will be somewhere up in a mountain range, or
Adam Huggins:something, and begin as a narrow, winding stream, cutting
Adam Huggins:down through a canyon, before eventually winding its way
Adam Huggins:across a wide, flat plain, and emptying out in a broad delta
Adam Huggins:into the ocean. That's kind of the archetypical, hydrological
Adam Huggins:cycle version of a watershed. The Klamath sort of does the
opposite:that's one of the things that makes it special.
opposite:The plains are upstream, the mountains are downstream, and
smack dab in the middle:four major dams.
Music:[Running water is overtaken by a somber piano
Music:cord, piano continues underneath]
Erica Terrence:So then the Klamath River starts up in
Erica Terrence:Southern Oregon and crosses the California/Oregon border, right
Erica Terrence:around where those large dams are in the system. So those
Erica Terrence:large dams bisect the whole watershed and block off more
Erica Terrence:than 100 miles of pretty good salmon habitat.
Adam Huggins:These four dams, Copco one and two, the J.C.
Adam Huggins:Boyle, and the Iron Gate, were constructed between 1918 and
Adam Huggins:1962, mostly to generate power for the region.
Erica Terrence:So it's about a 300 mile run of the Klamath
Erica Terrence:River, that's pretty long. Um, a lot of diverse interests, the
Erica Terrence:further down you come, you know, it starts out with all those
Erica Terrence:farming and ranching communities. Then you have the
Erica Terrence:Karuk Tribe's uppermost edge of their territory is Yreka
Erica Terrence:[wy-REE-ca], that's right around the border. And then, you know,
Erica Terrence:you get down to Happy Camps, ohms, Orleans, that's more the
Erica Terrence:center of our service area at MKWC, and that's a lot more
Erica Terrence:tribal communities, a lot more fishing communities, a lot more
Erica Terrence:watershed restoration going on. And that's really our economic
Erica Terrence:engine these days. And then when you get you know, out to the
Erica Terrence:mouth, that's Yurok Tribal Territory and a lot of timber
Erica Terrence:interests all down there. And out on the coast, you have
Erica Terrence:commercial fishermen, so when, you know, in the whole pitched
Erica Terrence:battle to remove dams, what you had often the narrative,
Erica Terrence:that-that came out about that was, you know, fishermen versus
Erica Terrence:farms . . .
Erica Terrence:. . . which is a pretty tough place to start.
Adam Huggins:So the long and short of it is, in the Lower
Adam Huggins:Basin, you have fishermen, the tribes: Karuk, Hoopa, and Yurok,
Adam Huggins:and small tight-knit communities of homesteaders and marijuana
Adam Huggins:growers in the mountains, and in the Upper Basin, farmers and
Adam Huggins:ranchers, and the Klamath Tribes as well, in between: dams. But
Adam Huggins:there's one more critical piece to this puzzle.
Bill Tripp:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] The Klamath
Bill Tripp:is sometimes referred to as the "Western Everglades". The basin
Bill Tripp:attracts 80% of the Pacific Flyway's waterfowl, and supports
Bill Tripp:the largest overwintering population of Bald Eagles
Bill Tripp:anywhere in the lower 48 states. It is also home to one of the
Bill Tripp:most productive salmon river systems in the country.
Adam Huggins:The Klamath historically hosted incredible
Adam Huggins:salmon runs, which the 49'ers and early settlers quickly began
Adam Huggins:capitalizing on, after giving up their search for gold.
Media:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] And of course, this
Media:region has a history long before settlers from the East came to
Media:it. It was already inhabited by Native communities that had
Media:lived in the Klamath Basin for 10,000 years, and who have a
Media:deep connection to this amazing place.
Bill Tripp:Well, I mean, there's there's a lot to that.
Music:[Guitar joins deep, driving music]
Adam Huggins:That, of course, is Bill Tripp, the Deputy
Adam Huggins:Director of Eco-Cultural Revitalization for the Karuk
Adam Huggins:Tribe. We spoke to him in our mini series "On Fire". Before
Adam Huggins:the dams were built, all the tribes, up and down the river,
Adam Huggins:carefully coordinated the Salmon Harvest through First Salmon
Adam Huggins:Ceremonies.
Bill Tripp:Before the Salmon Ceremony, at [Native Placename]
Bill Tripp:just up here and [Native Placename], before that no one,
Bill Tripp:no one else fished. And then you know, after that Ceremony was
Bill Tripp:done, then Runners would, would go down. And then the Yurok
Bill Tripp:would build their wier and then they would start fishing. But
Bill Tripp:that-that made sure that a lot of those first fish that could
Bill Tripp:make it farther in, through the system, could make it.
Adam Huggins:This way, enough of the healthiest fish made it
Adam Huggins:up river to spawn and ensure the future of the run. And then each
Adam Huggins:tribe would be able to harvest what it needed, ever mindful of
Adam Huggins:the needs of those tribes that were still upstream. At that
Adam Huggins:time, the salmon were so abundant that it was said you
Adam Huggins:could walk across the river-
Erica Terrence:-on the backs of buffalo and that's a reference
Erica Terrence:to when people could walk across the rivers, you know, on the
Erica Terrence:backs of the salmon. They were so densely packed in the rivers
Erica Terrence:that . . . you could literally walk across.
Adam Huggins:It's hard to imagine today, that the salmon
Adam Huggins:were so thick, you could walk across the river on their backs.
Adam Huggins:And you can understand why, all of these tribes, all of these
Adam Huggins:people, relied heavily on salmon year-round. And even so, when
Adam Huggins:the settlers arrived, it seemed like there was just an unlimited
Adam Huggins:amount of fish. That is, of course, until the dams were
Music:[Deep driving music returns to running water]
Music:built.
Erica Terrence:There were millions of salmon, right? And
Erica Terrence:now we're talking like, the number of salmon that are
Erica Terrence:supposed to get upstream and spawn is 29,000. And after
Erica Terrence:29,000, that's when they start allowing people to catch fish.
Erica Terrence:And so, you know, in a good year, you might have 60,000, or
Erica Terrence:something like that, but we often don't see good years. It's
Erica Terrence:such a small number, you know, tribal people can barely feed
Erica Terrence:their families and their elders are relying on fish from the
Erica Terrence:previous year from the freezer, sometimes which is so
Erica Terrence:demoralizing and demeaning and unjust. So it's it's really
Erica Terrence:quite a-quite a change. We've experienced the-the decline in
Erica Terrence:salmon populations is . . . affects everything here.
Bill Tripp:Just when I was a kid, it always just seemed like
Bill Tripp:we always had plenty, of salmon, but even then, from what I
Bill Tripp:understand, there's people told stories about, "I used to be
Bill Tripp:able to walk across the river on their backs", and-and I never
Bill Tripp:did-I remember seeing some really big fish caught, and they
Bill Tripp:end up like Alaska-size fish caught in the Klamath River,
Bill Tripp:[Indengious Placename] Falls and you just don't see that anymore.
Bill Tripp:I mean, but we did see a couple years there, I mean, when I was
Bill Tripp:young, I never did picture the whole walking across the rivers
Bill Tripp:on the backs thing. But there was a couple of years where I
Bill Tripp:saw you know, finally in my adult life, where-where, we saw
Bill Tripp:a one-one or two week window where-I was just-there were so
Bill Tripp:many fish-you can finally-I was like you can imagine what-what
Bill Tripp:that was, I mean, I try to . . . so many fish that you'd try to
Bill Tripp:dip 'em out of the falls and you couldn't even get your poles
Bill Tripp:down through them and it's like, you know, missing them all, and
you just wonder:how could I have missed that many fish?
you just wonder:Yeah, you don't see that anymore.
Adam Huggins:And in the past few years, the bottom has fallen
Adam Huggins:out on those low populations. For their annual First Salmon
Adam Huggins:Ceremony, in 2017, for the first time, the Yurok tribe actually
Adam Huggins:had to purchase salmon for the event, from Alaska.
Music:[Fades to silence, then a deep, bubbly oceanic soundscape
Music:rolls in]
Mendel Skulski:It's been months out at sea, swimming slowly and
Mendel Skulski:steadily towards your destination. And it hasn't been
Mendel Skulski:easy avoiding roving pods of killer whales and the beckoning
Mendel Skulski:hooks of longline fishermen. But at long last, you catch a
Mendel Skulski:familiar scent.
Music:[Rustic guitar cord, plays alongside the oceanic
Music:soundscape]
Mendel Skulski:Suddenly, you know this place, you've been
Mendel Skulski:here before, when you were just a smolt. And look, there's some
Mendel Skulski:other salmon too! They look different; they must be Coho.
Mendel Skulski:But over there, Chinook! They're all gathered in a big group
Mendel Skulski:together at the mouth of the river, so you head towards them.
Music:[Soundscape and guitar are supersceeded by a frantic
Music:whirlwind]
Mendel Skulski:But as you approach it becomes hard to
Mendel Skulski:breathe-your gills seize up, and you start to overheat-frantic,
Mendel Skulski:you struggle to reach the other Chinook, who are all gathered in
Mendel Skulski:a pocket of cold, oxygenated water.
Music:[Whirlwind gives way to a steady, upbeat drumline]
Adam Huggins:For most of the past few decades, stakeholders
Adam Huggins:in the Upper and Lower Basins of the Klamath River have been
Adam Huggins:locked in a series of caustic water wars.
Bill Tripp:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] Now, let me
Bill Tripp:tell you that the allocation of water in this basin has always
Bill Tripp:been a source of enormous tension between the farmers and
Bill Tripp:ranchers, the fishermen-both the in-stream fishermen and the
Bill Tripp:offshore fishermen-and the tribes. Tribes want to be
Bill Tripp:assured of their rights to continue fishing practices that
Bill Tripp:they have passed down from generation to generation for
Bill Tripp:thousands of years. Farmers and ranchers want to be sure that
Bill Tripp:they will have water they need to sustain their operations that
Bill Tripp:the families depend on for success. For decades, the
Bill Tripp:tension over water has been accentuated in times of drought,
Bill Tripp:culminating most famously in a standoff in 2001 that made
Bill Tripp:national news. During that 2001 drought, irrigation water for
Bill Tripp:the Klamath reclamation project was shut off [Sound of a valve
Bill Tripp:shifting] to protect endangered fish species. Thousands of
Bill Tripp:people gathered at Klamath Falls in sympathy with the farmers.
Bill Tripp:There was civil disobedience, and people were worried about
Bill Tripp:the possibility of violence. Vice President Cheney intervened
Bill Tripp:and guaranteed water deliveries, rather than fish protections,
Bill Tripp:and the result was the largest fish kill in US history.
Erica Terrence:Those guys upstream really, um, control a
Erica Terrence:lot of what happens downstream. Farmers were so concerned that
Erica Terrence:their crops would die off in such a drought year that they
Erica Terrence:turned off the head gates at the top dam in the system and
Erica Terrence:prevented water from coming downstream. And then, of course,
Erica Terrence:what resulted was this 2002 fish kill. The mainstem Klamath River
Erica Terrence:was so warm-and stressful for them-that they were looking for
Erica Terrence:that little bit of cold water with oxygen in it. And they were
Erica Terrence:also packed in so close together that they-you know-one got the
Erica Terrence:disease and they all got the disease, and it was close to
Erica Terrence:80,000 adult salmon that died. And when you put that in
Erica Terrence:perspective with the 29,000 number, it's really a big
Music:[Fades to silence]
Music:impact.
Bill Tripp:Meanwhile, agriculture was still damaged;
Bill Tripp:families saw major losses and some had to sell their farms:
Bill Tripp:there were no real winners. At the time, many people thought
Bill Tripp:these issues were intractable, that the arguments and lawsuits
Bill Tripp:would continue interminably, perhaps for generations to come.
Bill Tripp:But a number of years years ago, a group of leaders in the
Bill Tripp:community had the boldness to start rethinking how they framed
Bill Tripp:their quest for water and the water wars.
Music:[Funky, bubbly water enters then gives way to the
Music:ocean soundscape]
Mendel Skulski:After what seems like a lifetime, you make it to
Mendel Skulski:the group of salmon, and you can breathe again. The water is
Mendel Skulski:cool, and there's enough oxygen to catch your breath. But as you
Mendel Skulski:look around at the other salmon packed into this little lens of
Mendel Skulski:water, you notice that they look stressed and ill. Something is
wrong. Their gills:they're red and swollen with little white
wrong. Their gills:dots, and there's dead brown tissue around the edges. Panic
wrong. Their gills:starts to set in. When suddenly a wave of cool water flows over
wrong. Their gills:you, and the group disperses, headed upstream. You follow,
wrong. Their gills:feeling a sense of relief in this moment, but also
Adam Huggins:When cool river water sits in reservoirs, in the
Adam Huggins:trepidation.
Music:[Bubbles pitch shift up and give way to deep piano
Music:sun, it heats up and can't hold as much oxygen. And in a drought
Music:notes]
Music:year, when less water is coming downstream in the first place,
Music:and water is still being diverted for agriculture and
Music:industry, well, the temperature and oxygen levels in the
Music:mainstem of the river become lethal. Even for strong,
Music:relatively temperature tolerant Chinook Salmon. The fish are
Music:forced to crowd into the mouths of creeks, where bubbles of cool
Music:water can form. But crowding decreases oxygen levels even
Music:further, and increases the odds of parasite and disease
Music:transfer, which increases stress which increases the odds o
Music:parasite and disease transfer and so on. High temperatures
Music:low oxygen and stressed fis , packed into small areas crea
Music:e conditions that favor the rap d spread of a parasite known
Music:s White Spot. [Latin Binom al] , often known as Ich [Ick]
Music:or short. Ich is a ciliate prot zoan, whose adult stage feeds
Music:n the gills and skin of stresse fish, resembling a white spot.
Music:It can kill fish within 30 d ys, if secondary infect
Music:ons of columnaris-a fre hwater flavobacterium-don't fin
Music:sh the job first. And this is xactly what happened in 2002.
Music:ow, as it happened, the 2002 fi h kill coincided with t
Music:e FERC relicensing process. Bas cally, dams need to be periodic
Music:lly relicensed by the Federal nergy Regulatory Commit
Erica Terrence:Basically, I would say that the effort the
Erica Terrence:ee in Washington DC, to remain in use. And the four dams on the
Erica Terrence:Klamath, they have some probl ms, like they don't have fish
Erica Terrence:ladders, which are required b law. So they're vulnerable
Erica Terrence:And the Lower Basin communi y senses that, and takes the o
Erica Terrence:portunity to make a mov
Erica Terrence:campaign to remove four dams on the Klamath started in 2001 when
Erica Terrence:the dams-the license for those dams-was up for renewal with the
Erica Terrence:Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. And the way that
Erica Terrence:this campaign really catalyzed was a bunch of tribes overcoming
Erica Terrence:their differences in this basin and saying, we're going to get
Erica Terrence:dams out and we need to work together to do it. And so, all
Erica Terrence:four tribes-who had some significant differences-took
Erica Terrence:this trip, to send a delegation to Scotland-right?-when those
Erica Terrence:dams were owned by Scottish Power.
Music:[Distant B
Bill Tripp:Yes, I did go over there. That was, um,
Bill Tripp:interesting. Yes, if there was one thing I did, was I came up
Bill Tripp:with the idea to use recycled scotch barrels to cook our fish
Bill Tripp:with, cuz you can-couldn't find firewood. You don't really allow
Bill Tripp:open wood burning. And so, there's a ceremony on Calton
Bill Tripp:Hill in Edinburgh, where they, there's a Celtic ceremony every
Bill Tripp:year. And so, we end up getting permission from the Celtic
Bill Tripp:people to build a fire on their sacred fireplace, and we got
Bill Tripp:permission from the Scottish government to build the fire
Bill Tripp:there, to cook fish and feed the people. And so we did. We had a
Bill Tripp:bunch of wild Atlantic salmon and we built a fire. But we
Bill Tripp:couldn't find wood, and so they're like, wow, what are we
Bill Tripp:gonna do? What are we gonna do? And so, I guess that was
Bill Tripp:probably my, my contribution was, oh, and it would seem like
Bill Tripp:there would be recycled scotch barrels around here someplace.
Bill Tripp:[Laughs] And sure enough, the whole truckload of these little
Bill Tripp:oak, scotch-scotch soaked oak blocks, turned out pretty good.
Bill Tripp:But just talking to the people there. Out in front of the
Bill Tripp:shareholders meeting for Scottish power, was you know,
Bill Tripp:people were coming up and taking our fliers and one person said,
Bill Tripp:he said, "You know what? I'm on. I want one of those". And he
Bill Tripp:said, "You know why I want one?". I said, "Why?". He said,
Bill Tripp:"Because these things happen all the time, but usually when they
Bill Tripp:do, this whole place is littered with flyers". He said, "I walked
Bill Tripp:up and down the street a couple times while you guys went out
Bill Tripp:here and I haven't seen a single one on the ground, so I want to
Bill Tripp:know what you have to say". And I thought that was pretty
Bill Tripp:interesting. So, it seemed like it was really, really well
Bill Tripp:received from the people in that place.
Music:[Bagpipes fade away, a deep voice singing in an
Music:opera-like fashion fades in]
Erica Terrence:And Scottish Power was so . . . uncomfortable
Erica Terrence:under the microscope that they sold off that, you know,
Erica Terrence:albatross as fast as they could, to MidAmerican Energy, which
Erica Terrence:owns PacifiCore, which is, MidAmerican energy is owned by
Erica Terrence:Berkshire Hathaway, owned, majority of the shares, owned by
Erica Terrence:Warren Buffett.
Adam Huggins:This sale was a major early victory for the
Adam Huggins:tribes. But initially, the new owner, PacifiCore, isn't super
Adam Huggins:excited about the idea of taking out the dams. After all, they
Adam Huggins:just bought them. So it seems like to bring PacifiCore to the
Adam Huggins:table, the stars have to align, which isn't exactly what
Adam Huggins:happens. Instead, Hell freezes over. After the break . . .
Music:[Music reaches a conclusion and fades out, break]
Adam Huggins:So remember that FERC relicensing process? Well,
Adam Huggins:that process catalyzed a series of discussions between . . .
Adam Huggins:very unlikely bedfellows.
Adam Huggins:[Escalating, industi
Bill Tripp:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] Individuals
Bill Tripp:representing parts of the community that had often been
Bill Tripp:bitter enemies together, and they were talking about sitting
Bill Tripp:down and hammering out a different vision for the future.
Bill Tripp:To replace the lose/lose water battles of the past with
Bill Tripp:something different.
Erica Terrence:It was a large group of stakeholders-out of
Erica Terrence:necessity-that had to be at the table for that process. So it
Erica Terrence:was, you know, the four major tribes so, Yurok, Hoopa, Ka
Music:[Music shines through with electronic, stellar tones]
Music:uk, Klamath tribes at the t ble, commercial fishing interest
Music:, and sport fishing interests, h ndful of environmental gro
Music:ps-or conservation groups-wha ever you want to call
Music:hem, government agencies, State, Federal Bureau of Indian
Music:ffairs, BLM, BOR, Bureau of Rec amation had a lot to say abo
Music:t it, because they're so ent enched in how water is managed i
Erica Terrence:So that was a lot of pretty . . . diverse
Erica Terrence:the West, of course, the US Fis and Wildlife Service, they're r
Erica Terrence:ally involved in all the biolo ical opinions about what s
Erica Terrence:lmon need in rivers, and th n of course, agricultural inter
Erica Terrence:sts were at the table too so you had federal irrigatio
Erica Terrence:districts, and you had indivi ual farming and ranching inte
Erica Terrence:ests a
Erica Terrence:needs and interests.
Bill Tripp:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] Leaders from
Bill Tripp:many different parts of the community, sitting down
Bill Tripp:together, because as they said to me, you know, Senator, the
Bill Tripp:only folks who are winning right now, are the lawyers.
Erica Terrence:A lot of things went out on the table pretty
Erica Terrence:quickly, right? I mean, for example, PacifiCore doesn't want
Erica Terrence:any liability for removing dams, and the US Fish and Wildlife
Erica Terrence:Service has legal obligations to protect salmon. But they're
Erica Terrence:also, you know, responsible for having created these federal
Erica Terrence:irrigation districts and kind of caring for those irrigation
Erica Terrence:districts' interests. And obviously, tribes had already
Erica Terrence:been fighting tooth and nail and had, you know, for more water in
the river:enough to prevent fish kills, like the one that
the river:happened in 2002.
Bill Tripp:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] As we say, in
the West, "Whiskey:that's for drinking and Water: that's for
the West, "Whiskey:fighting". But these folks said, we are going to pursue a
the West, "Whiskey:different path. And I pledged that if they were able to
the West, "Whiskey:develop a solution, I would do everything I could at the
the West, "Whiskey:federal level to help implement it.
Erica Terrence:So when I got in there, even though I had grown
Erica Terrence:up here and was familiar with the place, in some ways, and the
Erica Terrence:communities in some ways, was just a whole new world of a lot
Erica Terrence:of lessons in politics, like a crash course in politics, and
Erica Terrence:you know, I spent a lot of time listening and kind of
Erica Terrence:interviewing people at the breaks, you know, we would like
Erica Terrence:break for a caucus, for all the environmental groups to get on
Erica Terrence:the same page or the tribal reps or-or the Ag guys to figure out
Erica Terrence:how they wanted to respond to something and I would be busy,
Erica Terrence:like pulling people aside and just trying to understand their
Erica Terrence:perspectives to the point where I can form my own opinion about
Erica Terrence:is the settlement good? Is it bad? Is it good enough? Like I
Erica Terrence:said, they were not without contention. I ultimately raised
Erica Terrence:the money and hired a couple of hydrologists to analyze those
Erica Terrence:water models to make sure that there would be enough water in
Erica Terrence:the river for fish. And we're running these really complex
Erica Terrence:models to try to figure out how can we come up with water?
Erica Terrence:Additional water, basically. Right? And, you know, a lot of
Erica Terrence:the negotiating gets done at the bar, afterwards. It was a big
Erica Terrence:lesson. Yeah. I mean, you know, a lot of that is about building
Erica Terrence:trust, and you know, if you if you are going to the bar with
Erica Terrence:the guy that used to be your enemy, you can;t probably
Erica Terrence:completely hate him. You know, It's really about like, finding
Erica Terrence:the inefficiencies in the system, you know, you can't
Erica Terrence:like, make more water, and whether there's enough to go
Erica Terrence:around . . . it has partly to do with how much you trust each
Erica Terrence:other and how much you're willing to like, talk to your
Erica Terrence:neighbor and take less than you think you should get just so the
Erica Terrence:other guy gets by too.
Adam Huggins:But even with the stakeholders willing to take
Adam Huggins:risks and come together to manage the system, collectively,
Adam Huggins:there was still no guarantee that there'd really be enough
Adam Huggins:water to support the salmon.
Erica Terrence:You need a minimum flow, there's like a
Erica Terrence:floor number for fish to survive. And fish biologists at
Erica Terrence:the tribes were looking at that and saying it's really not about
Erica Terrence:the number, it's about getting the fluctuation in the
Erica Terrence:hydrograph. Right? So you need the big water years in the
Erica Terrence:winter to scour out the disease, the algae on the rocks, and to
Erica Terrence:rearrange all the gravels that fish are going to spawn in, and
Erica Terrence:to blow certain holes out, and build gravel bars and rock bars
Erica Terrence:and other places, and create structure and complexity in the
Erica Terrence:stream channel. That's really essential.
Music:[Music fades out and is replaced by a river flowing over
Music:rocks]
Mendel Skulski:You're swimming up river now, and the water is
Mendel Skulski:just bearable. It's tough going, but this is what you were born
Mendel Skulski:to do. And every fiber of your being is bent on working your
Mendel Skulski:way upstream, back to that riffle where you first came into
Mendel Skulski:the world.
Music:[Weird synthy noises fade in]
Mendel Skulski:Suddenly though, the water around you is filled
Mendel Skulski:with big chunks of green goo, giving the water and ugly smell
Mendel Skulski:and clouding up the way forward. As you swim, little bits of it
Mendel Skulski:break off and hang on your scales, trailing behind you.
Mendel Skulski:It's coating all of the rocks along the side of the river, and
Mendel Skulski:even spreading into the central flow.
Music:[Resolves with gentle gong noise, as ruminating, tonal
Music:music backdrops]
Adam Huggins:Toxic algae blooms have become a pretty common
Adam Huggins:occurrence in the Klamath River. Locals are used to being able to
Adam Huggins:swim in the river in the springtime, but by June, the
Adam Huggins:algae builds up to levels they make the river pretty
Adam Huggins:uninviting. Most folks will head to cooler tributaries to swim in
Adam Huggins:the summertime, the same places where Coho Salmon tend to find
Adam Huggins:refuge from the higher temperatures that exist in the
Adam Huggins:main stem of the river.
Erica Terrence:And a water quality problem that became a
Erica Terrence:centerpiece of the campaign to get the dams out was this toxic
Erica Terrence:algae, this bright green-microcystis aeruginosa is
Erica Terrence:the Latin name for it-and it's an algae bloom that produces a
Erica Terrence:liver toxin, a hepatotoxin. And that can effect, a person, a
Erica Terrence:dog, a deer-drinking from the river-a fisherman, whatever, you
Erica Terrence:know, and it isn't something that will kill you right away,
Erica Terrence:but it bio accumulates in your liver and can take years off
Erica Terrence:your life. That algae species was found at levels 4000 times
Erica Terrence:higher than the World Health Organization said was a moderate
Erica Terrence:health risk. Because of solar radiation in those reservoirs,
Erica Terrence:it's just a bathtub environment, right? It's the perfect
Erica Terrence:conditions for that algae to thrive. You might get a little
Erica Terrence:bit of it in a free flowing wild river, you know, but a very
Erica Terrence:minimal amount and then it's-it's filtering itself a lot
Erica Terrence:more, right? Sometimes you look at that river and you know you
Erica Terrence:wouldn't want to get in it. You don't have to be a water quality
Erica Terrence:scientists or work with the World Health Organization to
Erica Terrence:know like, Nope! I should not swim in that.
Adam Huggins:After years of negotiations-almost a decade-in
Adam Huggins:2010, this large group of stakeholders come to an
Adam Huggins:agreement that they can all get behind.
Bill Tripp:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] So these
Bill Tripp:stakeholders have developed a collaborative agreement and
Bill Tripp:signed it, called the Klamath Basin Restoration Agreement, or
Bill Tripp:KBRA. The irrigators commit to reducing the total amount of
Bill Tripp:water they take from the river, through a variety of
Bill Tripp:conservation practices. They're working collaboratively with the
Bill Tripp:community and these tribes to restore habitat. In exchange,
Bill Tripp:they get certainty and predictability for guaranteed
Bill Tripp:amounts of water. The tribes, and conservation groups, and
Bill Tripp:fishing organizations agree to stop challenging these
Bill Tripp:irrigators' water allocations, in exchange, they get a
Bill Tripp:community partner to restore natural resources that are of
Bill Tripp:cultural and economic importance to the tribe, and to help them
Bill Tripp:reacquire some of the land they last 50 years ago; complementing
Bill Tripp:all of this and augmenting the natural resource restoration, is
Bill Tripp:a plan to remove four antiquated dams and open up new habitat for
Bill Tripp:fish.
Adam Huggins:Around the same time, PacifiCore decides that
Adam Huggins:taking out all the dams is in its best interest as well.
Media:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] The private utility that
Media:owns these dams, agrees that the best business decision is to
Media:remove these dams. So this is a win-win situation, or actually a
Media:win-win-win-win situation.
Adam Huggins:Everything is set, the agreements are made. All
Adam Huggins:that needs to happen now is congressional approval.
Music:[Fades out]
Erica Terrence:So the agreements needed congressional
Erica Terrence:approval because some of the parties to the agreements were
Erica Terrence:federal agencies, right?
Adam Huggins:This was in 2010, the year Republicans took the
Adam Huggins:house on the back of the Tea Party, and Congress decided to
Adam Huggins:obstruct pretty much everything.
Bill Tripp:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] The
Bill Tripp:development of the Klamath Basin restoration agreement is a
Bill Tripp:historic step forward for the region, and if it were already
Bill Tripp:in place, it would provide a powerful set of collaborative
Bill Tripp:tools for dealing with droughts, for dealing with years when
Bill Tripp:there is a shortage of water . . . But Congress has not yet
Bill Tripp:acted. And those tools are not in place.
Adam Huggins:So again, that was Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon
Adam Huggins:trying to convince Congress in 2010 to support the agreement,
Adam Huggins:but no dice.
Erica Terrence:Some of the major roadblocks were these very
Erica Terrence:ideological, entrenched folks in Siskiyou County...
Music:[Ride of the Valkyires Returns]
Erica Terrence:...who support dams on principle and even
Erica Terrence:though these dams are hydroelectric dams, they don't
Erica Terrence:provide any irrigation water, they don't provide any flood
Erica Terrence:control, in fact, probably the opposite. They're kind of risky.
Erica Terrence:They're still very opposed to dam removal, and I don't see
Erica Terrence:that changing anytime soon. Some of them, their-their parents or
Erica Terrence:their grandparents worked on building those dams. And it's
Erica Terrence:just very hard to let go of dams representing progress, and, you
Erica Terrence:know, there's that myth of dam-I mean, there are good dams and
Erica Terrence:bad dams, for sure, on a much smaller scale, dams can be fine.
Erica Terrence:But that myth of, you know, clean, green energy coming from
Erica Terrence:dams of this size, and that, that power is easily replaceable
Erica Terrence:by energy that would be at least as clean and green, much cleaner
Erica Terrence:and greener, in fact.
Adam Huggins:And so, these vocal constituents and their
Adam Huggins:Republican representatives in Congress, were able to prevent
Adam Huggins:congressional ratification of the deal in 2010, and 2011, and
Adam Huggins:2012, 2013, 2014, and finally, in 2015, time had run out for
Adam Huggins:the KBRA. The deal was set to expire completely if Congress
Adam Huggins:ignored it again. And just imagine this agreement, with
Adam Huggins:roots in a historic water crisis and fishkill, at the dawn of the
Adam Huggins:new millennium, that has been painstakingly hammered out, and
Adam Huggins:finally signed in 2010, nearly a decade later, this agreement
Adam Huggins:sitting for five years in Congress, while the original
Adam Huggins:stakeholders experienced drought year, after brutal drought year
Adam Huggins:on the Klamath, and with fish populations dwindling, this
Adam Huggins:agreement was about to fall apart. Here's Senator Merkley in
Adam Huggins:2014 making his final, desperate appeal:
Bill Tripp:[Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon] The Energy
Bill Tripp:and Natural Resource committee voted the bill out of committee
Bill Tripp:on a bipartisan basis. The Klamath County Chamber of
Bill Tripp:Commerce has endorsed the bill, the Klamath County Farm Bureau
Bill Tripp:has endorsed the bill, the Klamath County Cattlemen's
Bill Tripp:Association, and the Statewide Oregon Cattlemen's Association
Bill Tripp:have endorsed the bill. The Klamath Falls City Council has
Bill Tripp:endorsed the bill, and the Oregon Water Resources Congress
Bill Tripp:has endorsed the bill, the Senate has been ready to act.
Bill Tripp:But the US House of Representatives has not. And so
Bill Tripp:here we are, in the last days of this Congress, unable to
Bill Tripp:complete this bill. They have done everything we could have
Bill Tripp:ever asked the group to do to prepare for this legislation to
Bill Tripp:be passed. But that cannot last forever, Congress has to act to
Bill Tripp:seal the deal. Without cooperation, this vision so
Bill Tripp:carefully, diligently, and painfully constructed over a
Bill Tripp:years of involvement by community stakeholders will fall
Bill Tripp:apart. This opportunity might not come again.
Adam Huggins:And Congress did nothing.
Music:[The final note of the Ride of the Valkyries plays
Music:[
Music:before a quick fade to silence]
Mendel Skulski:Muscles burning, you forge ahead through algae
Mendel Skulski:filled water, you've avoided parasites, predators, and
Mendel Skulski:suffocation. You are a King among King Salmon, after all.
Mendel Skulski:And as you swim, you imagine the beautiful gravel beds in the
Mendel Skulski:tributary stream where you hatched. You imagine the mates
Mendel Skulski:that you'll find there, and the thousands of fertilized eggs
Mendel Skulski:you'll produce together.
Music:[Quick bubbly noise]
Mendel Skulski:You imagine-
Music:[Silence]
Adam Huggins:But you're gonna have to hold that thought,
Adam Huggins:because the dams are still there.
Erica Terrence:Well, as I said, fish can no longer get to that
Erica Terrence:upper 100 plus miles of habitat. It's really great habitat,
Erica Terrence:especially for Spring Chinook, a lot of tributaries that they
Erica Terrence:would have utilized quite a bit.
Adam Huggins:So for now, everything is hanging in the
Adam Huggins:balance.
Erica Terrence:For right now, what we're doing is this kind of
Erica Terrence:stopgap, like keep Coho alive by building them these little ponds
Erica Terrence:that they can survive in! You know, but ultimately, what we
Erica Terrence:need is this bigger scale work, you know, that can only happen
Erica Terrence:with dam removal.
Adam Huggins:But there is some hope on the horizon. And next
Adam Huggins:episode, we're heading up to the Olympic Peninsula in Washington
Adam Huggins:to see what might be possible for rivers like the Klamath.
Music:[Morphed bubbles, then an upbeat, confident jam fades in
am Huggins and Mendel Skulski:[simultaniously] Jump! [Splash]
Adam Huggins:1-2-3:
Adam Huggins:Thanks for listening. We'll be back in a
Adam Huggins:couple of weeks. Please tell everyone you know, subscribe,
Adam Huggins:rate, and review the show, wherever podcasts can be found.
Adam Huggins:It really helps us get the word out.
Mendel Skulski:In this episode, you heard: Ryan Hilperts, Erica
Mendel Skulski:Terrance, Bill Tripp, and Senator Jeff Merkley via c-span.
Adam Huggins:This has been an independent production of Future
Adam Huggins:Ecologies. Our first season is supported, in part, by the
Adam Huggins:Vancouver Foundation. If you'd like to help us make the show,
Adam Huggins:you can support us on Patreon. We have a whole series of
Adam Huggins:mini-episodes available to our supporters. To get access to
Adam Huggins:them, head to Patreon.com/FutureEcologies.
Mendel Skulski:You can also follow us on Facebook,
Mendel Skulski:Instagram, and iNaturalist. The handle is always Future
Mendel Skulski:Ecologies.
Mendel Skulski:[Music relaxes into a gentle, guitar rhythm]
Adam Huggins:Special thanks to Jose Isordia, Kirsty Johnstone
Adam Huggins:Munroe Cameron, Ilana Fonariov, and Andrjez Kozlowski.
Mendel Skulski:Music in this episode was produced by: Brian
Mendel Skulski:D. Tripp, Loam Zoku, Kieran Fearing, Sour Gout, the Western
Mendel Skulski:Family String Band...
Adam Huggins:...the Clan Stewart Pipe Band...
Mendel Skulski:...and Sunfish Moonlight. You can find a full
Mendel Skulski:list of musical credits, show notes, and links on our website:
Mendel Skulski:FutureEcologies.net.
Adam Huggins:Finally, we'd like to extend our extra special
Adam Huggins:thanks to Skyler Lindbergh and Vincent van Haaff for untangling
Adam Huggins:some seriously garbled audio for us. We could not have done this
Adam Huggins:episode without you. Thank you.
Music:[Guitar plays out into the jumping-into-the-water audio
Music:from earlier, people can be heard treading water]
Adam Huggins:Oh Barnacles! Oh that was great
Unknown:Yeah!
Adam Huggins:I feel so
Mendel Skulski:[Laughs]
Adam Huggins:I feel so good
Female Voice:[Cries out as they leap into the water] Sorry! I
Female Voice:keep forgetting I'm not supposed to make noise. I think I've just
Female Voice:been introduced on your podca-[Laughs]
Mendel Skulski:Did you scream during the jump?
Female Voice:Yes! [Unintelligible]
Unknown:[All laugh]
Adam Huggins:Oh my god.
Female Voice:We'll have to do it again then
Mendel Skulski:I could do that one more. You've already done it
Mendel Skulski:once
Female Voice:Okay, I'll be quiet