Running business systems at enterprise scale has some unique challenges—especially when that enterprise is Hubspot.

Today we're fortunate to chat with Rich Archbold, whose team supports all GTM systems and automation at Hubspot, including Hubspot's own Hubspot implementation.

This is a truly fascinating peek behind the scenes at one of the most iconic tech companies. Rich also shares generously from his deep experience, providing insights into how to foster a culture of agility, customer-centricity, and impact within a business systems team.

Thanks to Our Sponsor

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

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About Today's Guest

Rich Archbold is VP of Engineering for GTM Systems at Hubspot. He is passionate about building and scaling high-performing, highly engaged teams that build and operate world-class, mission-critical technology products and services. Prior to Hubspot, he held business systems and engineering leadership roles at Intercom, Facebook, and Amazon.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardarchbold/

Key Topics

• [00:00] - Introduction
• [01:06] - Transitioning from engineering to business systems
• [10:42] - GTM systems team structure at Hubspot
• [15:17] - Centralized vs. decentralized systems ownership
• [20:51] - Hubspot’s tech stack
• [23:02] - Can Hubspot work at enterprise scale?
• [25:11] - Hubspot Prospecting Workspace
• [31:16] - Use of Workato
• [33:24] - Lead processing systems
• [36:23] - Data quality
• [46:22] - Prioritization

Thanks to Our Sponsor

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Resource Links

• 6 things I learned the hard way leading business systems

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Newsletter

Justin Norris: 00:00:14

welcome to rev ops FM.

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: 00:00:15

Everyone today, we're going to take a

deep look at how to run go to market

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: 00:00:19

systems at enterprise scale and

even more exciting, we'll get a peek

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: 00:00:23

behind the scenes at one of the most

iconic tech companies around HubSpot.

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: 00:00:28

Today's guest is rich Archibald

VP engineering for GTM systems

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: 00:00:32

and automation at HubSpot.

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: 00:00:34

We're among other things.

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: 00:00:35

His team manages HubSpot's

own HubSpot implementation,

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: 00:00:39

FinTech and data engineering.

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: 00:00:41

Prior to HubSpot, Rich held engineering

and business systems leadership roles

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: 00:00:45

at companies like Intercom and Facebook.

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: 00:00:48

And Rich, I just have a ton

of questions for you today.

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: 00:00:50

So we're going to dive in and I'm really

appreciative of you coming on the show.

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: 00:00:54

Rich Archbold: Thanks Justin.

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: 00:00:55

I'm delighted to be here and as

I said offline, thank you so much

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: 00:00:59

for all of the content you put out.

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: 00:01:01

I am an avid listener of your

podcast and just find it so helpful.

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: 00:01:06

Justin Norris: Thank you so much.

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: 00:01:07

To start with maybe just a

little bit about your background.

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: 00:01:09

You've written about how you started

out, in more of an infrastructure

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: 00:01:13

backend engineering type of role.

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: 00:01:15

Transition to business systems.

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: 00:01:17

I'd love to understand from an

engineer's perspective, what kind of

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: 00:01:20

shock to the system did that provide?

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: 00:01:22

And what were some of the

learnings that you went through

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: 00:01:24

as you entered that field?

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: 00:01:25

Rich Archbold: so as you said, I

started off in backend infrastructure

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: 00:01:29

engineering and I think.

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: 00:01:32

I always loved solving hard, gnarly

scalability and operations challenges

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: 00:01:39

and didn't really mind if other people

didn't find them glamorous or if

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: 00:01:44

there wasn't a shiny front end set

of systems you needed to deal with.

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: 00:01:48

So perhaps it was kind of no surprise

that I Eventually made the move into

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: 00:01:53

business systems and go to market systems.

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: 00:01:56

It started out at Intercom, where at

the time we had a homegrown billing

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: 00:02:02

system that operated as an Integration

layer between Salesforce and Zora,

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: 00:02:10

and this was maybe 4 or 5 years ago.

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: 00:02:12

Now, when, I think we were making so many

changes to pricing and packaging at the

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: 00:02:16

time, and maybe how we had implemented

some of our usage based billing systems,

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: 00:02:21

uh, intercom just really didn't.

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: 00:02:23

integrate well with Zora at.

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: 00:02:25

we were having a lot of operational

challenges, scaling Zora and our CEO

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: 00:02:31

at the time said, Rich, you seem to

be good at fixing backend systems,

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: 00:02:34

any chance you could jump in and

take a look at our billing system.

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: 00:02:37

And that, really was the beginning

jump off point for me, diving into

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: 00:02:43

billing systems and realizing that

these are like fascinating, very

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: 00:02:49

difficult, Computational problems.

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: 00:02:52

there's real magic and innovation in

integrating between your pricing and

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: 00:02:58

packaging and somebody else's product

catalog and billing systems and learning

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: 00:03:04

how you need to match up data models and.

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: 00:03:08

found it absolutely fascinating.

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: 00:03:09

I incredibly difficult and just had a real

appreciation for the engineers and leaders

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: 00:03:14

who work in this space that there's,

there's just really valuable craft.

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: 00:03:19

I think, while the engineering work was

difficult, the more difficult thing was

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: 00:03:24

stakeholder management and understanding

who your internal customers are really

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: 00:03:28

being on that point of intersection

between oil and water, almost where

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: 00:03:33

you have, salespeople and sales that

really work to the quarter and have

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: 00:03:39

quarterly targets and have, like really

hard deadlines they need to hit and

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really, meaningful performance based

compensation that if they can't hit

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: 00:03:51

it, it's really materially impacts

them and engineers and product managers

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: 00:03:55

on the other side who operate to like

a much more gentle or longer term

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: 00:04:01

cadence and understanding the friction

that can happen when people don't.

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really understand each other,

and, don't really have the

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: 00:04:09

right empathy for each other.

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: 00:04:11

And that kind of human relationship

building and empathy and understanding of.

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Each side of the coin, I found every

bit as interesting and humbling

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: 00:04:21

as, the actual engineering work.

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: 00:04:23

And, over time, I grew to love the space.

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: 00:04:26

I like the.

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Breath of different people you

get to interact with and learn all

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different parts of the business.

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and progressively, then I moved from

leading our, teams in, owning, billing

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: 00:04:39

to when intercom hired its first CFO.

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: 00:04:42

I switched to report to the CFO to

build out are first ever centralized

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: 00:04:46

business systems function and run

go to market applications, which had

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: 00:04:50

salesforce marketo and intercom on

intercom, our billing team and also

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took over our data engineering teams.

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And again, that was just, So many

new things to learn that I'm really

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kind of motivated by learning,

and I love to learn new things.

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Some people would say they

have 20 years of experience.

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And I go, is that really 20 years?

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Or is it the same 1 year, 20 times over?

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And I try and kind of push myself to have

a new year of experience every time and

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getting to report to a CFO and having

all of, like, really Senior finance

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execs in your peer group was just a gift.

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Fascinating learning experience.

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Justin Norris: And you alluded a little

bit to the contrast between what you were

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doing in business systems and folks on the

product side, where you've got engineering

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: 00:05:38

teams and product management teams.

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And in that structure, every team's

a little bit different, but usually

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: 00:05:44

product management is kind of.

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: 00:05:46

The interface between, the customer

and business needs and then the

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: 00:05:51

engineering team who's responsible

for how do we bring this to life

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: 00:05:55

in a technically scalable way.

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: 00:05:57

And then in business systems, you

kind of have that stripped away.

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You're sort of judge, jury, and

execution are all wrapped up into

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: 00:06:03

one, so to speak, and that you've

got to interface with the business.

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: 00:06:06

You've got to define your requirement.

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You, don't have often that

separate product management layer.

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: 00:06:11

Was that.

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: 00:06:12

Disruptive for you at all?

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: 00:06:13

Or did you feel a gap not having

those functions surrounding him?

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Rich Archbold: Yes and no.

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You're right that it's totally different.

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And even if you do have PMs, while

those PMs share some common skill

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: 00:06:27

sets, how they approach their

job has to be very different.

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: 00:06:31

That if you're a PM, um, In core products

in HubSpot, you are building a product

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that is a good product market fit for

millions of SMBs, and if your product

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: 00:06:45

doesn't match 100 percent of the needs of

the customer, they still have the freedom

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: 00:06:51

to leverage their own engineering team

to buy or integrate a different solution.

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You don't have to do the last mile

Customer installation or professional

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: 00:07:01

services or customer support.

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You've dedicated teams for those.

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So it's really a, very specialized, very

long term, strategic thinking position,

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but when you operate as a PM of a business

systems team, you have one customer,

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usually an enterprise customer rather

than an SMB customer who you have to

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build 100 percent product market fit for.

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You need to do all of the professional

services, all of the customer support.

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You need to do absolutely

everything yourself.

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You find it very hard to say no,

because that customer you have a

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real personal relationship with

and that customer generally.

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Doesn't have the luxury or you actually

really don't want them to have the

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luxury of going out and hiring some

other consultant or hiring some

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other people because that leads to

fragmentation, collaboration tax,

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that's kind of how, you

know, you're failing.

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It's not whether your customer is like

telling you, you're doing a great job.

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It's whether they've gone off and

spun up a shadow it, function or.

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or.

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: 00:08:01

not, so I think the 2 roles are, I

mean, obviously, there's a lot of

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: 00:08:05

commonalities, where, you aren't

doing a Coupa implementation project.

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: 00:08:11

What you're actually doing is a

procure to pay efficiency project.

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: 00:08:16

And so you need to make sure that

you understand who is the customer?

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what is the business problem?

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What is the ROI?

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and don't get over focused on.

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Implementing any 1 particular

technology or other.

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: 00:08:26

So I think that's where those are some

of the, I mean, you need to be really

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: 00:08:29

great at communication and have great

empathy and great, problem solving skills.

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: 00:08:34

But, yeah, I think the 2 roles are quite

different in the go to market space.

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: 00:08:38

I think, that's really what we look

to have our best BSAs, step in and

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: 00:08:42

kind of perform that role where the

best BSAs are, part project manager,

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: 00:08:49

part systems administrator, part

systems integrator, part customer

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: 00:08:53

support, part solutions engineer.

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And, BSAs I've worked with, they

really, Look and feel like, a very

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: 00:09:02

operationally focused, product

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Justin Norris: And just in case that

acronym isn't transparent for anyone,

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: 00:09:07

BSA equals business systems analyst.

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Rich Archbold: Yeah,

business systems analysts.

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Like, I've seen multiple archetypes where

some business systems analysts will lean

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: 00:09:18

more on the, product owner or Product

manager, almost like a program manager

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: 00:09:23

archetype, and some will lean more towards

the systems engineer, solution engineer,

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: 00:09:30

integrations engineer, where they're

really adept at being able to configure or

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: 00:09:35

maximize a particular service or leverage,

integration technology, like Workado.

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: 00:09:42

So they're almost more like solutions.

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: 00:09:43

engineers, and I think it can be

very difficult when you're in a very

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: 00:09:47

small environment, you want your to

be able to do all of those things.

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But the bigger you get, it can be

sometimes difficult to have, like, you

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want to have some amount of Swiss army

knife, business systems analysts that

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can really jump in and do anything.

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: 00:10:01

But I think once you reach a certain

point, that's where you need to

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: 00:10:04

think about, do I actually need, A

Swiss army knife, business systems

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analyst, or do I need a dedicated

internal go to market product manager.

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And I think at HubSpot today, we're, I'd

say we're almost like 90, 10 or 80, 20

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: 00:10:18

in favor of each of our individual teams

are generally led by a product manager.

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: 00:10:25

And we do have some amounts of

amazingly fungible, business systems

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analysts who are really are the.

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glue in a lot of different projects

where they're able to participate in many

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: 00:10:37

different ways at many different levels,

depending on the project that is at hand.

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: 00:10:42

Justin Norris: so maybe digging

a little bit deeper than into

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your team and its structure,

where does it sit within HubSpot?

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Is it rolling up into like an it function?

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: 00:10:51

Is it connected to different

functional areas that you support?

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How does that structure work?

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: 00:10:56

Rich Archbold: So, today we roll up

through the, Product organization,

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so the R and D arm as such.

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So I have a product partner who rolls

up through our head of product and

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I myself roll up through our CTO.

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But for me, I always think I have many

bosses that I, like, I feel equally

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accountable to our head of sales, head

of marketing, head of support, our CFO.

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And, while the CTO is my manager, it's

great that, like, I certainly report to

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him from an engineering quality and from

an engineering execution perspective,

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but I need to make sure this is such a

highly cross functional space with, so

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many different, uh, leaders involved that

you really have to consider yourself.

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You are accountable to the, companies

go to market leadership team.

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Justin Norris: And when you say

you have a product, partner,

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tell us about that relationship.

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Like, how does that work?

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Rich Archbold: Yeah, so I have a

product partner, Kitty Chu, who is

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based in Seattle and Kitty and I, so

our mission is to help bring HubSpot's

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go to market strategy to life.

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And so the, 2 of us will

partner with each of the various

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different go to market leaders to.

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Understand what the company's go to market

strategy is, how it's going to be evolving

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each year and then use that to break down.

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what are the big rock projects?

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We need to get our teams

to execute in each of the

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different parts of the business.

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As I said, each of the

teams generally have, uh.

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Product manager, uh, designer and an

engineer and all of the product people

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roll up through my product partner and all

of the engineering people roll up through

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me.

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Justin Norris: Got it.

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So it really is structured in a lot

of ways, like an externally facing

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product team would be with engineering

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product

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Rich Archbold: very much so.

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And we share a lot of the same core

values around solving for the customer

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and making sure that we're, thinking

long term and that we're building really

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high quality into the product services,

workflows and data that we generate.

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: 00:13:16

Justin Norris: So kind of traveling

down the tree, if you like, of,

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your org structure, beneath you

and kitty, how do you structure

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those different groups or pods?

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Are they around systems or are they

around the go to market teams or

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what does that structure look like?

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Rich Archbold: we try and set up

our teams to, try and generate

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relatively clean relationships

with each of our key stakeholders.

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So there's a marketing focused

team or a marketing focused group.

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: 00:13:41

There's a sales focused group.

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: 00:13:43

There is a customer support

and success focused group.

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There's a partner focused group.

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And then we have a shared kind

of CRM, data, focused, function.

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As well.

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: 00:13:54

And then as I said, we have our

FinTech, function, which is kind of

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: 00:13:57

like our own homegrown, uh, pricing and

packaging, CPQ billing invoicing and,

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: 00:14:03

some of our finance systems, functions.

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: 00:14:06

And all of those individual groups or

teams at various different layers would

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: 00:14:10

have a product management leader, uh,

design leader, and an engineering leader.

227

: 00:14:17

And we have this concept

of what we call interlock.

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: 00:14:20

So this would be, a set of regularly

occurring meetings where you'd

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have members from, like, the go to

market systems function and their

230

: 00:14:29

relevant counterparts in, rev ops

or, the various different in field

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: 00:14:35

leadership functions, like a sales

leader or a marketing leader or, uh.

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support leader, and we, kind of realized

that this is like a fast moving space.

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: 00:14:45

It's very cross functional.

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: 00:14:47

we have a concept of hashtag 1 team

that even though we all roll up to

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: 00:14:51

different leaders, you have to think of

yourself as like 1 cross functional team.

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: 00:14:55

It's up to you all to make

the decisions and make sure

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: 00:14:59

that there's minimal friction.

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: 00:15:02

Between Rev Ops and engineering or Rev

Ops and product or sales and Rev Ops, we

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: 00:15:07

try and think of ourselves as just one,

cross functional team, working together

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: 00:15:13

to help bring our go to market strategy to

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: 00:15:16

Justin Norris: life.

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: 00:15:16

And in a smaller organization, a lot of

the systems ownership, you know, usually

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: 00:15:21

lives within RebOps or marketing ops,

you know, this functional ops teams.

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: 00:15:26

Um, How do you think about the

roles and responsibilities with your

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: 00:15:30

group and then the rev ops function?

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: 00:15:32

Like what do they do?

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They're a stakeholder of yours.

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: 00:15:35

I am assuming.

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but how do those lines

of responsibility flow,

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: 00:15:40

Rich Archbold: that's a great question.

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: 00:15:41

And what I think of the Product teams that

roll up through me as much as possible.

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: 00:15:49

We're trying to build systems and

build functions that allow RevOps

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: 00:15:54

to have the right level of agency

and control and configuration.

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: 00:15:59

We actually want them to be able

to move fast and experiment.

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: 00:16:03

And so I think about it as like

trying to keep the cycle times.

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: 00:16:09

Low and keep the agility high.

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: 00:16:12

So in each of our rev ops teams, we do

have some that have hands on ability

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: 00:16:18

to make changes or have some work out

our skill sets to, do some last mile

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: 00:16:25

Automation and, customization, know,

I've been, I've seen organizations

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: 00:16:32

in the past where, people try and

put every single thing inside of

261

: 00:16:37

that single business systems function

or single sales systems function.

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: 00:16:42

And I think, I've seen the cycle

times be too high, around that.

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: 00:16:46

And I think you really need to strive

to give the business the right level

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: 00:16:51

of agility and control over the

things that are happening day to day.

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: 00:16:55

And if there's a small change that.

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: 00:16:57

Can be made, you want it made as close

as possible to the person requesting it.

267

: 00:17:01

And I think that's why we have

powerful, easy to use platforms

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: 00:17:05

like CRM platforms, right?

269

: 00:17:08

Like that, I, I think that

is some of the value of it.

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: 00:17:10

So I definitely do like the.

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: 00:17:13

Centralized teams to a certain extent,

because I think that removes some

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: 00:17:19

siloing and allows you to make bigger,

bolder decisions more, quickly.

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: 00:17:25

It allows you to stay focused on customer

problems rather than parts of a process.

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: 00:17:31

But I also think it's just really

important that the business feels like

275

: 00:17:34

they are beholden to you for every

single change they want to make, that

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: 00:17:40

they will have the right context.

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: 00:17:42

you just want to be able to have

the shortest possible cycle times

278

: 00:17:45

for, the categories of change

that, that actually makes sense

279

: 00:17:49

for.

280

: 00:17:49

Justin Norris: what you just mentioned

to me addresses what I've observed.

281

: 00:17:53

And also what I think is generally

perceived as the major risk and

282

: 00:17:57

shortcoming of the centralized team

is that you essentially recreate

283

: 00:18:00

the it dynamic where it's like.

284

: 00:18:03

A big queue of tickets, it's

sort of this fortress mentality.

285

: 00:18:06

They're pushing away work We'll see you

in three months and of course that's what

286

: 00:18:10

leads to the the shadow it cropping up

again or the consultants or we just have

287

: 00:18:14

to do it on the side i've also seen to

your point that you know inevitably folks

288

: 00:18:20

that are coming up through operations

that don't necessarily have like Maybe

289

: 00:18:25

they develop systems expertise, but

it isn't necessarily their background

290

: 00:18:28

You Eventually when you're thinking

about an enterprise architecture vision

291

: 00:18:33

you go beyond what those folks are

able to accomplish at least without

292

: 00:18:38

Further upskilling and you really do

get into a much more technical domain

293

: 00:18:42

So it seems like you have this sweet

spot dynamic setup do you feel that?

294

: 00:18:47

This is just inevitable that, you know,

once you pass, I don't know what it is, 5,

295

: 00:18:51

000 employees for, I don't know, whatever

the number is that you have to kind

296

: 00:18:57

of have a centralized business systems

function, or do you think that you can

297

: 00:19:01

just have functional ownership of tools,

you know, within ops teams in perpetuity,

298

: 00:19:07

Rich Archbold: You know, the answer is,

I think it depends, if you have a, a

299

: 00:19:11

relatively simple and stable, business

model, and you're not making a lot of

300

: 00:19:16

changes to your go to market strategy, I

think you can keep things simple and keep

301

: 00:19:21

functional ownership, as long as you can.

302

: 00:19:23

But I do think there's certainly a

level of change that happens, a tipping

303

: 00:19:29

point of complexity or tipping point

of change where you actually can't make

304

: 00:19:35

changes in isolation, where if we're

going to start selling a new product,

305

: 00:19:39

we need a new skew in salesforce.

306

: 00:19:43

We need to be able to meet her.

307

: 00:19:44

It's usage in a new, different way.

308

: 00:19:46

In our billing system, we need to be

able to account for revenue and in.

309

: 00:19:50

In a different way inside

of our Rev Rec system.

310

: 00:19:52

It's going to mean different

product usage data flowing into

311

: 00:19:55

our customer success platform.

312

: 00:19:57

I'm going to mean that we try and drive

cross sell upsell renewal a different way.

313

: 00:20:03

I think it's really hard to implement

those type of transformational projects

314

: 00:20:07

or really big step function projects

without some sort of, central governance

315

: 00:20:13

or, architecture and, management.

316

: 00:20:16

So I think, yeah, you just kind of reach a

tipping point of complexity where it makes

317

: 00:20:21

sense to have a more centralized function.

318

: 00:20:24

But, That doesn't mean that every time

you want to add a new field inside of the

319

: 00:20:28

CRM, it needs to go to that centralized

team either, though, you know, I think

320

: 00:20:32

that that's where I mean, there's some

some types of changes where you really

321

: 00:20:36

want to make sure the teams closest

to the problem have the right level

322

: 00:20:40

of agency and autonomy over solving

323

: 00:20:42

them.

324

: 00:20:43

Justin Norris: a bit of a, like

a hub and spoke model, if you

325

: 00:20:45

want to think about it that

326

: 00:20:46

Rich Archbold: exactly.

327

: 00:20:47

Justin Norris: Yeah, no, that

makes makes perfect sense.

328

: 00:20:51

Let's talk a little bit about

your stack, which is kind of

329

: 00:20:54

a fun thing to think about.

330

: 00:20:55

I presume HubSpot's in there somewhere.

331

: 00:20:56

what else are you folks using?

332

: 00:20:59

Rich Archbold: definitely HubSpot is

pretty much the center of everything and

333

: 00:21:02

we're a massive, marketing hub, sales hub,

service hub, and, HubSpot CRM platform.

334

: 00:21:09

we use a lot of our own CRM UI extension

capabilities in order to build the spoke

335

: 00:21:16

and tailored experiences inside of HubSpot

and customize the views we provide to,

336

: 00:21:23

each of our different reps and our PMs

and designers spend a lot of time talking

337

: 00:21:28

to our internal stakeholders to make

sure we're tailoring those correctly.

338

: 00:21:33

one of the.

339

: 00:21:34

More interesting ones that we've

launched recently was using our

340

: 00:21:37

own prospecting workspace to help

organize the, prospecting layout and,

341

: 00:21:42

uh, and tool tips that We provide

to our reps and adoption for that.

342

: 00:21:47

And engagement with that has

been, very high from A CPQ.

343

: 00:21:54

And, and, billing and invoicing

perspective, a lot of that

344

: 00:21:57

is custom to ourselves.

345

: 00:21:59

And we have, uh, quite an artisanal

set of, processes and capabilities.

346

: 00:22:04

And that's something that

our, FinTech organization

347

: 00:22:07

takes care of on the back end.

348

: 00:22:09

We use NetSuite, from a, call

recording and coaching perspective.

349

: 00:22:14

We use Gong and are, and

we are big fans of Gong.

350

: 00:22:18

We think that's a great product as well.

351

: 00:22:20

from a.

352

: 00:22:21

Data engineering.

353

: 00:22:22

So from an analytical data perspective,

all of our data flows into snowflake.

354

: 00:22:26

We're, big fans of dbt and, looker

and airflow from, uh, an automation

355

: 00:22:32

and, data plumbing perspective,

Yeah, curious, what else, are you

356

: 00:22:36

you mentioned WorkAuto

a few times as well.

357

: 00:22:38

Yeah, so Workado, we're, we're

massive, massive fans of Workado.

358

: 00:22:43

And, use, that as our

last mile automation.

359

: 00:22:47

And, in some cases,

integration technology.

360

: 00:22:50

And, you know, our teams have built some

really novel, Automation on top of that.

361

: 00:22:54

And I've used it to, create some hooks

into chat GPT and, yeah, just some really

362

: 00:23:00

interesting use cases there as well.

363

: 00:23:02

I come from, the Marketo space, you

know, traditionally, although I've

364

: 00:23:05

always been a HubSpot respecter, but

the conventional wisdom, let's say

365

: 00:23:10

on the street, at least in Marketo

circles, it's sort of like HubSpot.

366

: 00:23:13

Yeah, it's good.

367

: 00:23:14

But you know, you might reach a point

where you can't scale it and you're going

368

: 00:23:18

to need to migrate to, and same thing,

I guess, with the CRM to Salesforce.

369

: 00:23:23

Here you are obviously

a very large enterprise.

370

: 00:23:26

Uh, using HubSpot for both

CRM and marketing automation.

371

: 00:23:30

how would you respond?

372

: 00:23:31

Let's say if someone proposed that

point of view to you, like, yeah,

373

: 00:23:34

it won't necessarily scale with you.

374

: 00:23:36

Like you've scaled it.

375

: 00:23:37

what are your thoughts on them?

376

: 00:23:39

I think that's wrong.

377

: 00:23:41

so I've come from a world of, so at

Intercom I use Salesforce and, Marketo,

378

: 00:23:47

and I would say the bane of my life was

dealing with, you know, Duplicate leads

379

: 00:23:52

in, Marketo to, HubSpot, uh, syncs and

bottlenecks and integration and having

380

: 00:23:58

to deal with multi enrichment challenges

between, Marketo and Salesforce and trying

381

: 00:24:03

to implement ring lead as a solution

to try and have, centralized enrichment

382

: 00:24:08

and account management and survivorship.

383

: 00:24:10

But, when, I left Intercom, I wanted to

go to HubSpot because I felt like they

384

: 00:24:14

had it all sorted out and I wanted to

have one single stack that everything,

385

: 00:24:19

was there and present with a single

consistent data model that I could have

386

: 00:24:23

marketing and sales, both used together.

387

: 00:24:26

Didn't have to deal with

any integration challenges.

388

: 00:24:28

It was just all there natively.

389

: 00:24:30

And now I'm living in the

promised land, you know, it works.

390

: 00:24:33

And so there's a whole

degree of challenges that,

391

: 00:24:35

I didn't have to deal with.

392

: 00:24:37

that now I don't have to deal

with because I have that seamless

393

: 00:24:40

integration and the partnership between

marketing and sales and the handle.

394

: 00:24:44

I mean, you're working in the go to market

world for a while and you go, what are

395

: 00:24:48

some of your hard fought lessons learned?

396

: 00:24:50

Handoffs between teams and tools is like

where all of the friction is, going to

397

: 00:24:55

happen is where a lot of the data quality

issues, where a lot of the scalability

398

: 00:24:58

bottlenecks are going to happen.

399

: 00:24:59

It's going to make problems twice as hard.

400

: 00:25:04

I don't have to deal with that.

401

: 00:25:05

You know, I've got everybody in the

one platform with a shared data model.

402

: 00:25:09

They've got the same source of truth.

403

: 00:25:11

That does, sound nice.

404

: 00:25:12

let's think about, innovation

on the platform in general.

405

: 00:25:17

I assume you've had to push the

boundaries in some cases to.

406

: 00:25:22

You know, solve interesting

challenges that you've had.

407

: 00:25:24

What are just some cool things, I guess,

that you're doing on your own platform

408

: 00:25:28

that might be interesting to folks,

409

: 00:25:30

as I said, probably the most fun for

us at the moment is that prospecting

410

: 00:25:34

workspace and feels like we have, you

know, we're really able to, partner deeply

411

: 00:25:40

with our reps and understand what is the

absolute ideal workflow you want to have.

412

: 00:25:44

Like we can do lots of rep shadowing

and really build that empathy for our

413

: 00:25:48

reps and go where do you wish you had?

414

: 00:25:50

what's your ideal layout here?

415

: 00:25:52

How would you like

things to be prioritized?

416

: 00:25:54

if you could wave a magic wand,

how would this work for you?

417

: 00:25:58

And the HubSpots, prospecting

workspace layout, and then the CRM,

418

: 00:26:02

UI capabilities give us the ability

to really bring that to life.

419

: 00:26:07

Pretty quickly and easily, which has

been, just wonderful to see, I guess.

420

: 00:26:12

I'm just trying to think of, like, some

of the other things that we're that

421

: 00:26:16

we're doing that

422

: 00:26:17

maybe just on the, on the prospector

workspace, because I'm super interested

423

: 00:26:20

in that feature and I've, I've read a

bit about it, but let me just tell you,

424

: 00:26:23

give you my read on what I think it is.

425

: 00:26:25

You can tell me if I'm right or not,

but it kind of solves that perennial

426

: 00:26:30

challenge of, you know, I've got one lead

or contact or person record, whatever we

427

: 00:26:34

call it within that system's nomenclature.

428

: 00:26:36

but that person may go through a buying

process or a funnel trip Multiple times,

429

: 00:26:41

and it's very difficult to, report on

that, to capture that because the data

430

: 00:26:45

model is, kind of one dimensional.

431

: 00:26:47

And so the prospecting workspace sort

of introduces this idea of many, I

432

: 00:26:51

don't know if you call them leads or

what they're called exactly, but many

433

: 00:26:54

different entities that can relate

to that single person that represent

434

: 00:26:57

those iterative buying journeys.

435

: 00:26:59

is that what it is?

436

: 00:27:01

the problem, that we use it to solve is

437

: 00:27:04

slightly different.

438

: 00:27:05

And the way I describe the problem

is I'm a sales rep and I have

439

: 00:27:09

hundreds of companies under my name.

440

: 00:27:13

And, some of these companies are,

already customers and I need to, Think

441

: 00:27:19

about account management and account

maintenance and cross sell upsell.

442

: 00:27:24

Some of them are cold prospects,

and some of them are warm prospects.

443

: 00:27:29

And I've got hundreds of these

inside of my capacity like that

444

: 00:27:32

are assigned to me and every day.

445

: 00:27:34

I need to come in and figure

out what's the best way for

446

: 00:27:36

me to spend my time today.

447

: 00:27:38

there's undoubtedly been.

448

: 00:27:40

Maybe a lot of signals that have happened.

449

: 00:27:42

Maybe there's been new enrichment events,

or, new activities on our marketing sites

450

: 00:27:48

that might have contributed to events.

451

: 00:27:51

Maybe the companies that are actually

customers of mine, there's been

452

: 00:27:55

some new usage data that has flowed

into the system and I'm a rep with.

453

: 00:28:02

to meet what should I do today?

454

: 00:28:05

And so what we use our prospecting

workspace is a way to, break up the

455

: 00:28:11

companies segment, the companies that

reps own into kind of like cold, warm,

456

: 00:28:16

maybe hot, existing customers then we

can use various different types of,

457

: 00:28:21

machine learning models in the background.

458

: 00:28:23

To help prioritize the activities for the

rep and make it transparent to the rep why

459

: 00:28:30

we have prioritized different things in.

460

: 00:28:33

Different ways to just make it much

easier for the rep when they come in

461

: 00:28:36

in the morning, not to be hit with,

just a search list of here are hundreds

462

: 00:28:41

of companies that you are responsible

for looking after and for them having

463

: 00:28:45

to think about lots of searching and

filtering to actually come in with a

464

: 00:28:49

beautiful, tailored, high quality, UI

that, fits natively inside of HubSpot,

465

: 00:28:56

where there has been a lot of, you know,

thoughtful engineering in the background

466

: 00:28:59

to make sure that we're showing them the.

467

: 00:29:03

Most actionable things for them to

do and making it easy for them to

468

: 00:29:07

understand why

469

: 00:29:08

Justin Norris: Got it.

470

: 00:29:09

So it's more about prioritization,

sort of task management or activity

471

: 00:29:13

management and, uh, and directing them.

472

: 00:29:16

And you've alluded a few times to the

UI customization capabilities, and I'll

473

: 00:29:20

confess, I'm, I'm a little bit ignorant,

actually, of HubSpot's capabilities in

474

: 00:29:24

this area are actually a lot ignorant.

475

: 00:29:26

what can you tell me?

476

: 00:29:28

Is it akin to like a Salesforce

lightning page layout or like a

477

: 00:29:32

Rich Archbold: very much.

478

: 00:29:32

So yeah, very much.

479

: 00:29:34

So, so like a lot of the flexibility

and customization you have with that,

480

: 00:29:38

there's lots of kind of like low

code ways that you can customize it,

481

: 00:29:44

but we can go as far as embedding an

iframe directly inside of a particular

482

: 00:29:49

portion of one of those windows.

483

: 00:29:51

And that can.

484

: 00:29:52

Be backed by some of our own, fully

bespoke and custom built, web applications

485

: 00:29:58

that our own quoting experience being

one of those examples of where we

486

: 00:30:02

can embed, uh, our own custom CPQ

application directly inside of the

487

: 00:30:07

HubSpot

488

: 00:30:07

app.

489

: 00:30:08

one of the The great things about

this and one of our, I guess,

490

: 00:30:14

overriding philosophies is that

we ask our reps every quarter.

491

: 00:30:20

How do you feel about the

amount of tools you have to use?

492

: 00:30:23

you want to keep reps on the

same pane of glass inside of the

493

: 00:30:26

same app as much as possible.

494

: 00:30:27

You want to have, Unified data

models inside of your CRM.

495

: 00:30:31

So this is one of those things

that we consistently look at is

496

: 00:30:35

how many different applications

are we asking our reps to work in?

497

: 00:30:38

How can we cut that down?

498

: 00:30:39

Is there something else that we can

move natively inside of the HubSpot

499

: 00:30:42

app and that we can have the data,

uh, authoritatively stored for

500

: 00:30:47

directly inside of HubSpot as well?

501

: 00:30:49

because if it is a rep

productivity is improved.

502

: 00:30:51

The amount of context switching they

do is minimized, but also having that

503

: 00:30:57

data, source of truth inside of the

CRM in a nested custom object format

504

: 00:31:03

allows all of our work out of folks

to generate additional, last mile.

505

: 00:31:09

Automation and, customization in, um, kind

of safe and scalable way then as well.

506

: 00:31:16

Justin Norris: Let's dive

into that one a little bit.

507

: 00:31:18

I'm also a big fan of work.

508

: 00:31:20

Um, how do you think about it

from a roles and responsibilities

509

: 00:31:23

point of view within the stack?

510

: 00:31:25

Like when might you use HubSpot's internal

automation capabilities, if at all, versus

511

: 00:31:29

saying this is where we need to layer in

a work order recipe to achieve a goal.

512

: 00:31:33

Rich Archbold: so I think that work

was a great tool for ops teams.

513

: 00:31:38

To use to automate their workflows,

I think when you're doing anything

514

: 00:31:44

that HubSpot customer scale, that's

actually going to scale with the

515

: 00:31:48

amount of customers that we have.

516

: 00:31:50

It's kind of hard to use, uh,

work just from a cost perspective.

517

: 00:31:55

If you're doing something that's

going to be running, you know,

518

: 00:31:58

hundreds of thousands times a day,

growing at scale with our customers.

519

: 00:32:01

And those are the things that, Generally,

we would use more scalable software for.

520

: 00:32:07

I also think you get beyond

the level of complexity.

521

: 00:32:09

Like, Ricardo is great for automating

things, but it's really hard to do.

522

: 00:32:15

Unit testing or integration testing,

there's kind of like a size of complexity

523

: 00:32:19

that once you actually go beyond it, maybe

you want to use some more traditional

524

: 00:32:24

software engineering processes and

best practices for, but I think it's

525

: 00:32:29

a great tool for ops teams to use to.

526

: 00:32:33

Automate their processes and

yeah, if you're operating at a

527

: 00:32:36

smaller scale, I think it's fine.

528

: 00:32:38

I think it's a great integration tool.

529

: 00:32:40

I generally do believe in that.

530

: 00:32:42

citizen automator model Work auto use,

but I just think there's a point of scale

531

: 00:32:47

and complexity where it makes sense, both

from a financial perspective and also from

532

: 00:32:51

a scalability and operational excellence

perspective That you will want to convert

533

: 00:32:57

it into software, but we would often start

with, hey, we have this idea for something

534

: 00:33:02

that we think might be valuable to reps.

535

: 00:33:05

Let's build it as a prototype in workado

and roll it out to a subset of our reps.

536

: 00:33:11

And if it proves valuable, then we can.

537

: 00:33:14

think about scaling it up and turning it

into a fully fledged software solution.

538

: 00:33:18

So it ends up being like a really

valuable prototyping and fast

539

: 00:33:21

paced prototyping tool for us

540

: 00:33:23

Justin Norris: I had a fascinating

conversation with a fellow

541

: 00:33:25

named Niles Fote, from Trey.

542

: 00:33:27

so we're Cotto's competitor, but, using

Trey as part of their go to market.

543

: 00:33:32

And he, uh, has developed a

fairly sophisticated model where

544

: 00:33:36

it kind of all their, lifecycle

processing is happening in Trey.

545

: 00:33:40

So they're doing like the

event capture from the website.

546

: 00:33:43

All of that sort of

enrichment scoring MQL stuff.

547

: 00:33:47

And just, I thought made a compelling

case around why that was more scalable

548

: 00:33:52

and, um, overcame some of the limitations

that you get, like with, you know,

549

: 00:33:56

in Marketo, you're capturing fields

onto the person objects, so it can be

550

: 00:33:59

really hard to manage race conditions

because those events can get overwritten

551

: 00:34:03

before other processing happens.

552

: 00:34:04

There's like a limit,

beyond which you can't go.

553

: 00:34:07

What are your thoughts about that?

554

: 00:34:09

Or maybe just tell us a

bit more how you run that.

555

: 00:34:11

call it operational

backbone of your system.

556

: 00:34:14

Are you doing that in HubSpot

or have you written sort of

557

: 00:34:17

your own software for that?

558

: 00:34:18

How does it work?

559

: 00:34:20

Rich Archbold: so we have a homegrown

bespoke lead pipeline system, given

560

: 00:34:25

the, given the scale that we're at.

561

: 00:34:28

And so we have some custom software

that allows us to capture All of

562

: 00:34:33

those events and send them through

a homegrown enrichment territory

563

: 00:34:39

assignments, and, routing system.

564

: 00:34:41

And so that really is all

homegrown custom software for us.

565

: 00:34:46

And we have various different levels of

operational dashboards, and pay, like,

566

: 00:34:51

a lot of attention to making sure that.

567

: 00:34:54

A lead that enters the system

actually gets routed to, a rep,

568

: 00:34:59

and we pay a lot of attention to

when it actually gets to the rep.

569

: 00:35:03

Did the rep think it was a good lead

or did they end up disqualifying it?

570

: 00:35:09

Because some of the.

571

: 00:35:11

Enrichment data didn't seem like it

was right, or some of the segmentation

572

: 00:35:15

data, or some of the territory data,

or, that's some of the things that we

573

: 00:35:20

thought made it actually a qualified

lead actually weren't a qualified lead.

574

: 00:35:24

And those are some of the metrics

that I paid most attention

575

: 00:35:27

to, to be honest with you.

576

: 00:35:28

I looked to see, did the

process from capturing the lead.

577

: 00:35:35

To qualifying it and getting

it in the hands of the rep.

578

: 00:35:37

What did the rep think?

579

: 00:35:39

Did the rep think it was good or bad?

580

: 00:35:40

And why not?

581

: 00:35:41

And like, are they policy issues

or are they software issues?

582

: 00:35:46

And for the ones that are software

issues, do we make sure that we have

583

: 00:35:50

the right teams thinking about, how to

improve our enrichment systems or how

584

: 00:35:55

to improve our segmentation systems or

how to improve our assignment systems.

585

: 00:36:00

And for ones that are policy

issues, are we making sure that

586

: 00:36:04

we're giving that feedback?

587

: 00:36:06

And that the ops teams are getting all

that feedback, do they feel like they have

588

: 00:36:11

the right configuration tools out there?

589

: 00:36:14

and do they feel they have the

right agency to make changes to

590

: 00:36:18

tweak things that they want, or

are those features, We need to

591

: 00:36:21

build,

592

: 00:36:22

Justin Norris: that makes perfect sense

and you've alluded to data a number of

593

: 00:36:26

times that's also within your purview So

maybe we'll turn to that This is a broad

594

: 00:36:30

question, but how do you think about data

strategy at the scale that you're at?

595

: 00:36:34

Like, what are the sorts of first

level concerns that you're dealing with

596

: 00:36:39

when you think about HubSpot's data?

597

: 00:36:41

Rich Archbold: I

598

: 00:36:41

think it's the most important thing.

599

: 00:36:43

and again, if you said to me, what

are some of those hard fought lessons

600

: 00:36:47

learned that you pick up as you go

from working in infrastructure to

601

: 00:36:51

working in, the go to market world.

602

: 00:36:55

I think as a product person, as

an engineer that builds a products

603

: 00:36:58

for customers to buy, you generally

take data quality for granted and

604

: 00:37:03

you focus on building features.

605

: 00:37:05

you have full control

of all of the databases.

606

: 00:37:07

You've got to pick the

database technology.

607

: 00:37:09

if it's my SQL, you can rely on nice,

clean, simple, my SQL replication,

608

: 00:37:14

or even if you need to stream it into

some other sort of a search, elastic

609

: 00:37:17

search database, there's like nice

clean patterns for doing that, and

610

: 00:37:21

you're all about building features.

611

: 00:37:23

And then when you come into the go to

market world, you realize it's the exact

612

: 00:37:25

opposite You get to buy your features.

613

: 00:37:28

HubSpot is going to give you features.

614

: 00:37:30

Salesforce is going to give you features.

615

: 00:37:31

Marketo is going to give you features.

616

: 00:37:33

You need to build your data.

617

: 00:37:35

you're actually, the more systems you

have, you end up with a heterogeneous

618

: 00:37:41

multi master database replication system

with, no good consistency checking.

619

: 00:37:47

And so you've multiple sources of truth,

data replicating, left, right, and center.

620

: 00:37:52

it's a native integration here,

and then it's a workato integration

621

: 00:37:55

over there, and they're all point

in time integrations, and nobody's

622

: 00:38:00

written a data checking thing.

623

: 00:38:02

there's no, primary keys anywhere,

there's duplicates all over

624

: 00:38:06

the place, and you're going.

625

: 00:38:08

Well, you have a new, B2B SaaS

software rep going to sell you some

626

: 00:38:12

new features to solve your problem,

and so people will sell you features.

627

: 00:38:16

You can buy your features.

628

: 00:38:17

Features are not the problem.

629

: 00:38:19

The problem is the data quality.

630

: 00:38:20

and so that's where I spend, again, and.

631

: 00:38:24

Inordinate amount of my time, thinking

about, how do I make sure people

632

: 00:38:29

understand the hierarchy of needs of data

and that my company object is the single

633

: 00:38:34

most important thing I need to have good

governance and quality over followed

634

: 00:38:38

closely by my contact object as my, as

my 2nd, most important thing and then

635

: 00:38:43

flowing down to deals or opportunities

and then select contracts or.

636

: 00:38:48

Subscriptions to invoices and

understanding that hierarchy of of

637

: 00:38:53

data and making sure that we have.

638

: 00:38:57

Some sort of a governance process on

each, like the, Schema management of

639

: 00:39:03

each of those different core objects

that we have some semblance of what does

640

: 00:39:09

good mean for each of the attributes?

641

: 00:39:12

Inside of these individual objects.

642

: 00:39:14

So, like, how do we uniquely

identify a company or an account?

643

: 00:39:18

And do we have the right semantic

and syntactic safeguards in place

644

: 00:39:23

to make sure that that remains?

645

: 00:39:25

A unique identifier.

646

: 00:39:27

how do we think about company size?

647

: 00:39:29

if we are enriching a company

from 7 different sources, how

648

: 00:39:34

do we think about survivorship

rules around each of these things?

649

: 00:39:37

How do we think about

hiding the mess from reps?

650

: 00:39:40

So that reps only see 1 value rather than

the 7 values, but they have the right

651

: 00:39:45

level of, lineage and discoverability.

652

: 00:39:47

So.

653

: 00:39:48

Even though we're only showing them

one they know why it's only one.

654

: 00:39:52

and so, yeah, I spend a massive amount of

my time thinking about and evangelizing,

655

: 00:39:58

operational data quality inside of

our CRM and making sure that each of

656

: 00:40:02

the different groups and teams are.

657

: 00:40:05

Thinking about it, that we've got

the right schema management strategy,

658

: 00:40:09

that we've got the right data

ingestion strategy, that we've got

659

: 00:40:11

the right data, processing strategy,

that we've got the right safeguards

660

: 00:40:16

along the way, that all of this.

661

: 00:40:19

It's so easy to get caught up in

data quality for data quality's sake.

662

: 00:40:23

And you're like, I do, data quality.

663

: 00:40:25

No, you're here to help the company

bring its go to market strategy to

664

: 00:40:29

life, which means reps doing their jobs.

665

: 00:40:33

That's what you're here to do.

666

: 00:40:34

And one element of it is you

need to keep the data, right.

667

: 00:40:37

So that all of that can happen.

668

: 00:40:39

And so you can get caught

up in a world of like where.

669

: 00:40:43

Data quality, I'm going

to remove some duplicates.

670

: 00:40:45

And you go, well, you could remove

75 percent of the duplicates, but it

671

: 00:40:48

could have zero impact on a reps, work.

672

: 00:40:53

And so you need to be talking

to your reps and talking to your

673

: 00:40:56

RevOps leaders and go, whereabouts

are you feeling your pain points?

674

: 00:40:59

And where do you think, Is your problem,

generating net new business is your

675

: 00:41:05

problem doing cross sell upsell?

676

: 00:41:07

Is your problem doing forecast accuracy?

677

: 00:41:10

is your problem, doing life

cycle marketing because you don't

678

: 00:41:12

have enough product usage data?

679

: 00:41:14

where's your problems?

680

: 00:41:15

I'm here to solve your problems.

681

: 00:41:16

And odds are there's a CRM data

quality challenge in there that

682

: 00:41:22

we're going to need to figure out.

683

: 00:41:23

But yeah, just making sure that.

684

: 00:41:26

Whatever we do is in service

of those, business problems and

685

: 00:41:31

business opportunities rather

than, polishing our data quality

686

: 00:41:36

because you can spend forever.

687

: 00:41:37

You can spend

688

: 00:41:38

all of your

689

: 00:41:38

time

690

: 00:41:39

Justin Norris: And it's never

691

: 00:41:40

Rich Archbold: CRM data

692

: 00:41:40

quality and it's never done.

693

: 00:41:42

and it's never right.

694

: 00:41:43

but we're not here to generate

good data quality we're here

695

: 00:41:47

to, delight our customers and.

696

: 00:41:50

generate leverage for the business

and we focus on those two things

697

: 00:41:54

first and data quality is a means to

698

: 00:41:56

an end.

699

: 00:41:57

Justin Norris: feel like we could do

a whole show just on data because,

700

: 00:42:00

yeah, there's so much in what you

just described, both in terms of

701

: 00:42:03

the current state of things and

mess that we generally all inhabit.

702

: 00:42:08

and accept as normal and the

different things that you can do to

703

: 00:42:11

try to mitigate that just for fun.

704

: 00:42:13

I want to double click on maybe just

one of them to see how you solve for it.

705

: 00:42:17

Tactically you mentioned about like

the data lineage and you might have,

706

: 00:42:20

you know, seven different, data

sources for a particular data point.

707

: 00:42:26

you have some means of, Consolidating

that, displaying only one to the

708

: 00:42:29

rep, but in the background you can

still track what you got and from

709

: 00:42:32

where, like how do you solve that

specific problem, to take an example.

710

: 00:42:37

Rich Archbold: probably maybe the most

applicable way was, how we were solving

711

: 00:42:40

it at Intercom and how we were bringing

in, ring lead, or I think like zoom

712

: 00:42:45

info ops OS, what we were able to do

was plug in multiple enrichment sources

713

: 00:42:49

into ring lead and program some pretty

complex survivorship rules for these

714

: 00:42:55

things that then, ultimately updated

this, single field in Salesforce.

715

: 00:43:00

And we could say, like survivorship

rules of where you have linked in data.

716

: 00:43:05

Um, Always use linkedin data where

you don't have linkedin data if

717

: 00:43:10

you have, let's say zoom info

data and some other data provider.

718

: 00:43:16

And if it's in North America default to,

zoom info, but if it is in Europe default

719

: 00:43:23

to luscia, Data, let's say, like, I don't

think there's any, 1 size fits all here.

720

: 00:43:29

The different data providers will

have different strengths in different

721

: 00:43:33

regions and different segments.

722

: 00:43:36

I think that the key thing is,

you've got to keep talking to your

723

: 00:43:39

reps and getting feedback from reps

on what's actually working well for

724

: 00:43:43

them and what's not working for them.

725

: 00:43:46

I think that, the secret for me, or the

key is that you're, rarely ever going

726

: 00:43:52

to have somebody articulate to you.

727

: 00:43:55

Hey, your priority zero

problem is CRM data quality.

728

: 00:43:58

You need to go and, I'm going to

allow you down tools and not integrate

729

: 00:44:02

any new software for me or not build

any new workflows for me and just

730

: 00:44:06

go spend 80 percent of your time

cleaning up the data inside of our CRM.

731

: 00:44:11

that's pretty much never going to happen.

732

: 00:44:13

And.

733

: 00:44:13

Okay.

734

: 00:44:14

If you don't know any better, or

if you haven't done up the battle

735

: 00:44:17

scars, it's very easy to listen

to your internal stakeholders.

736

: 00:44:20

And they'll say, I want this tool.

737

: 00:44:21

I want this workflow.

738

: 00:44:23

I want you to launch this product.

739

: 00:44:25

I want this new enablement source

and you end up spending 120 percent

740

: 00:44:29

of your time, adding new to the

system and adding new complexity.

741

: 00:44:36

Quickly, as you can, and that's

the path to getting out of control.

742

: 00:44:40

And I think that the real secret to us

is having the conviction to know that,

743

: 00:44:48

this is where you're going to go wrong.

744

: 00:44:49

You're going to go wrong.

745

: 00:44:50

If you're not constantly gardening

and gatekeeping, uh, some of the data

746

: 00:44:54

inside of the CRM that you aren't, um.

747

: 00:44:57

Preaching this to your team that you

aren't putting those guardrail metrics in

748

: 00:45:04

place that allows you to get a sense of.

749

: 00:45:07

this is kind of how good or bad it is that

you're continuously talking to reps and

750

: 00:45:13

that you're listening out for these type

of keywords, that were, and you're able to

751

: 00:45:18

tie it back to, I'm hearing data quality,

but it's actually a prospecting thing.

752

: 00:45:22

I can now go sell it to the business

and go, Hey, here's how we can improve

753

: 00:45:25

prospecting, or here's how we can

move the numbers you care about.

754

: 00:45:29

it's by investing In this thing, and I

think as engineering leaders, it's up

755

: 00:45:33

to us to champion that and to have that

mindset and to not, unknowingly, walk

756

: 00:45:39

ourselves into a corner of not necessarily

technical debt, but Data debt, I think,

757

: 00:45:45

again, if you're building products for

external customers, you're all about

758

: 00:45:49

the technical data and know that like

software isn't being properly reused.

759

: 00:45:53

And we need to take the time to

refactor this software so that

760

: 00:45:57

we're carrying less software.

761

: 00:45:59

I think the same is true

in the go to market world.

762

: 00:46:01

It's in the data space.

763

: 00:46:02

It's like, are we taking the time to

refactor our, data, eliminate data

764

: 00:46:08

that's now duplicate or unnecessary.

765

: 00:46:11

And for me, difference between

building product and building go

766

: 00:46:14

to market is just a role reversal.

767

: 00:46:16

One, you build products, the

other is that you build data so,

768

: 00:46:19

that you can buy your features.

769

: 00:46:21

Justin Norris: And maybe the last

question we have time for, but you've

770

: 00:46:25

mentioned a few times about, this

push and pull with your stakeholders,

771

: 00:46:29

identifying what work you need to do.

772

: 00:46:32

figuring out your priorities.

773

: 00:46:34

I think this is perhaps the most

challenging and an important job, you

774

: 00:46:38

know, for any leader in the space.

775

: 00:46:39

Cause if you make the wrong

decisions, all the other work

776

: 00:46:42

downstream, loses its impact.

777

: 00:46:46

How do you think about that problem?

778

: 00:46:48

how do you manage it?

779

: 00:46:49

Rich Archbold: I think you're right.

780

: 00:46:50

I think it is one of the hardest things.

781

: 00:46:52

so at HubSpot, we have an excellent annual

planning process that happens each year,

782

: 00:46:57

which, that's where we kind of set out

a lot of our, uh, Big rock goals, and we

783

: 00:47:03

try and make sure we're generally hyper

aligned with our business stakeholders

784

: 00:47:08

on what are the biggest strategic needle

moving projects that we need to do.

785

: 00:47:13

And we make sure that we set

aside capacity for those things.

786

: 00:47:18

But we also know the business is,

agile, the world changes around

787

: 00:47:21

us, and we need to be nimble

and responsive to those changes.

788

: 00:47:26

the first port of call for being

able to be nimble and agile to those

789

: 00:47:30

changes is those, technical BSAs

that we have embedded inside of rev

790

: 00:47:35

ops, who we're continuously trying to

build features and capabilities that.

791

: 00:47:41

they can tweak and respond to.

792

: 00:47:44

We also have work that enables us

to, deliver some amount of agile

793

: 00:47:48

automation, in that manner as well.

794

: 00:47:50

And then we have our.

795

: 00:47:53

Various different interlock meetings,

our sales interlock, our support

796

: 00:47:57

partner interlock where we have

an ongoing intake process where,

797

: 00:48:01

people could submit new requests.

798

: 00:48:03

And we review those interlock

meetings are happening on a

799

: 00:48:07

bi weekly basis at the moment.

800

: 00:48:09

I'd love to say they're frictionless,

but they're not, sometimes we will

801

: 00:48:13

discover dependencies that we didn't

realize we had, or dependencies that

802

: 00:48:17

were maybe bigger than we thought.

803

: 00:48:18

Um, we need to adapt to them.

804

: 00:48:21

it's, definitely not always perfect,

but, some of the really interesting

805

: 00:48:27

things are, What do you do when sales

ops wants to do one thing, but your

806

: 00:48:32

reps want to do something else or maybe

the priorities aren't quite aligned

807

: 00:48:37

where the reps will obviously be the

ones to see the paper cuts and the

808

: 00:48:41

friction with the existing processes.

809

: 00:48:44

They all like.

810

: 00:48:45

See and feel them every single day,

every single deal they work, whereas

811

: 00:48:50

the, sales ops or rev ops folks

might be 1 step removed from that.

812

: 00:48:54

And they're, more hyper focused on the

bigger swing, strategy plays or supporting

813

: 00:49:00

some of the new product launches or

supporting maybe a bigger Segmentation

814

: 00:49:04

change or something like that.

815

: 00:49:05

And that's actually where it

gets really interesting for me,

816

: 00:49:08

where your first desire is, I

want to make those reps happier.

817

: 00:49:13

I want to fix those paper cuts for

those reps, but maybe it's the same

818

: 00:49:15

group of people that would be working

on executing the larger strategic

819

: 00:49:22

project, those are the really tough ones.

820

: 00:49:24

the philosophy I preach is to try

and set aside, no more than 70

821

: 00:49:28

percent of your capacity for your,

Big rock strategic goals and leave

822

: 00:49:33

30 percent of your capacity, free to

respond throughout the year and to.

823

: 00:49:39

Address those paper cuts.

824

: 00:49:41

And then my other tip, is, the more

closely you can connect your engineering

825

: 00:49:45

teams and your systems teams to the reps,

the more rep shadowing you do, the more

826

: 00:49:50

empathy you can build with those reps.

827

: 00:49:53

The teams will just find a way to

go, Oh yeah, we know these people.

828

: 00:49:57

We're talking to them a lot.

829

: 00:49:58

We know they're feeling this pain.

830

: 00:50:00

We'll find something that we'll find

a way to address some element of it.

831

: 00:50:04

Just so it's not a sharp, but if

you say we're primarily here to

832

: 00:50:07

execute the strategy, but we measure

the rep friction and we really

833

: 00:50:10

care about rep friction as well.

834

: 00:50:12

and you set aside some capacity for it

and you get, The engineers and the PMs

835

: 00:50:17

and the designers meeting regularly with

the reps, everything just gets easier.

836

: 00:50:21

That's the secret, the closer you get

to reps, the more rep shadowing you

837

: 00:50:24

can do without actually getting in the

way, the more empathy you can develop,

838

: 00:50:28

for them, the more you can help see

around corners and fix things before

839

: 00:50:34

they break or fix things before you're

840

: 00:50:36

even

841

: 00:50:36

asked

842

: 00:50:36

to.

843

: 00:50:37

Justin Norris: It's knowing

your customer, you know, right?

844

: 00:50:39

Rich Archbold: 100%,

845

: 00:50:41

Justin Norris: closer you are to

your customer, more empathy you

846

: 00:50:42

have, the more you'll intuitively

be drawn to fix those problems.

847

: 00:50:47

Rich, this was so, so interesting.

848

: 00:50:48

Uh, could have probably

booked a three hour session.

849

: 00:50:51

We'd still have more to cover, but really

grateful for you joining us today and

850

: 00:50:56

just being generous, sharing all your

insights and what you folks are doing.

851

: 00:51:00

I think it's fascinating.

852

: 00:51:00

So thank you so much.

853

: 00:51:02

Rich Archbold: Thank you for having me.