In this episode, we deep dive into the musical journey of Kieran Hadley, known in the UK hip hop scene as DJ Baboon. From his initial encounters with music, the growth of his record collection, his introduction to battle DJing, and his integration into the music industry, this wide-ranging conversation covers it all. Kieran shares insights about the Leeds hip-hop community in the '80s and '90s, the role of talent in achieving success, and the importance of finding a group of like-minded individuals to navigate one's music journey.

We also explore topics like managing DJ requests, teaching English, transitioning from a teaching career, charging for one's work, and more. DJ Baboon candidly shares his struggles with ADHD and how it influences his life and work. Lastly, he sheds light on his current projects, which include producing in a hip-hop chip shop in Manchester and running a hip-hop party band.

Filled with wisdom and experiences, this episode is guaranteed to both inspire and entertain!

Adam Gow 0:00

And so welcome back to otter DJ everyone and welcome Kieran Hadley aka DJ baboon, aka signwriter. extraordinaire, Babb Sabbath. And nice to see you in person here at TYX studios in Wakefield. Thanks for coming down here.

Babb Sabbath 0:15

Very welcome. It's a good spot.

Adam Gow 0:17

Yeah, it's nice and Thanks, George for setting it up for us really appreciate that. So let's kick off like we always do. And you just want to start by telling us how you got into music in the first place in DJing.

Babb Sabbath 0:29

So I've been trying to work this out I've been trying to find those like seminal moments. And I think it goes back to my brother's friend, which I think is a lot of people store called someone grave who was ended up being Russell Brand's tour DJ, he played like, sort of go go funk, like breaks stuff, right way back when I was 14, so 90 Something

Adam Gow 0:59

think go go. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, like

Babb Sabbath 1:03

Adam Gow 1:53

But yeah, I think you've hit something there. And it depends what DJing becomes here. Because you get the people where they've just got to get the thing that's current. And I feel quite lucky that in my musical journey, as soon as I started learning about samples, that was me, I was just looking backwards all the way like I'd always been to all the music. It had been into older music anyway. But what I found with that was that I've always been pretty bad with what's current, I continue to be and this is why I wouldn't be very good function open format, DJ professionally.

Babb Sabbath 2:30

Yeah. Just it wasn't a good look.

Adam Gow 2:33

I just don't concentrate that some people make a really good living and really enjoy it. But I'm too bothered about the stuff in the past. But yeah, if you were just like, I just need to have the newest thing. Sometimes the shelf life that they've got is really, really short. So you do end up with a lot. I mean, I found it when I was buying new hip hop, I'd go into certain shops, and you'd kind of get sold, I was quite easy at certain points to get sold into what they were what they needed to get rid of. Yeah, I think and they tell you with this sort of confidence that this is a good song. You go Oh, yeah, cool, nice one, then you end up with two copies of it. It's not very good for juggling with. You don't really like it anyway. Yeah. But yeah, like you say, when you when you've got that, that first bit of money, and you slightly just want the best

Babb Sabbath 3:21

like it never, because it just gets more and more diluted over time. And I've got a great record collection. But just when I had like 10. And they were all back as like they were all just beautiful. But like, what do you got them in and you've got nothing else. So you play them again and again. And again.

Adam Gow 3:37

Yeah, I remember playing certain DJ sets when I probably only had about 60 records, maybe less. And you're absolutely killing it. Because just everything that you've got, you know really well and you really love it. And you did some wicked gigs. And then you go out and you've got this, this bigger sort of collection with you and you can kind of overthink it, I'll get the paralysis of our should play that should not play that. Whereas when you've got this little selection, you start right by my by my blank.

Babb Sabbath 4:02

I mean, I did thrive when I started Serato early on, because my ADHD was just loving it. I could just bounce into anything at any point. And if I'd want it to go down like an hour of Bollywood sample stuff, in a busy Bars, I'm doing that I'm just going to do whatever my brain tells me to do. Yeah. And just chase down interesting things or just play you know, like 60s White funk music, and I'd have a season or be obsessed with like chasing down a thing and find enough for fun. Yeah, and I didn't get a lot more gigs.

Adam Gow 4:38

So when did you start so you started DJing at about 14 Did you have did you get decks quickly? Or

Babb Sabbath 4:43

was that Soundlab DLP threes?

Adam Gow 4:46

direct drive Yeah,

Babb Sabbath 4:49

and a little Gemini. Something I want to say like three to three like the little Gemini to channel. black and orange boy

Adam Gow 5:01

So did you start learning to scratch with that setup? On the

Babb Sabbath 5:05

Adam Gow 5:47

I remember when I first heard about kid koala. It was a guy called Alex Crowther. I don't know if you ever came across him in Leeds and how I remember it now is almost like him going this guy right kid koala records music on the internet. And that's what I had in my head but somehow he was doing all this stuff live and then it was just like this folk like your teenage

Babb Sabbath 6:10

brain just loves it you like one more turntable than everyone else? It must be Yeah, one turntable bear. I suppose scratch scratch scratch scratch Yeah. When you went into tune one.

Adam Gow 6:22

I think when you get into battle DJ in there almost like superheroes.

Babb Sabbath 6:27

They work for me. For sure. Mix Master Mike is still the pinnacle of like super and he knows it like Yeah, how's that superhero persona and I'm like, I'm down for it. Like he's just yeah all time favourite for for just that for bombast and stupid body tricks. And late. I was talking to Mike-L about it. And he's like, this 14 year olds that could paste him in a battle.

They couldn't do what he does. They couldn't do what they you know, he

just does very fast scratching. And it's just he's just himself is 100% Mixmaster make? Yeah, there's no one like there's loads of stuff he couldn't keep up with. But I do not give the tiniest shit. Like he's just wonderful. It's such a joy to watch.

Adam Gow 7:05

Yeah. And I think I think what you get with, with young kids that are doing this or any sort of other art form where you get these sort of prodigies that are doing something that's creative, young. You're doing it without this life experience that I think even with something like scratching, for example, it can. It can inform how you do it and what you do. And because I think a lot of the time you'll get it with like the sport parents as well, that will teach to stop, they'll be kind of pushing the kid into doing this thing and the kid will be technically incredible. But they've been taught someone else's style. Okay. Yeah, I think you get it with B boying as well like I used to DJ few battles. And you'd get these kids and sometimes they'll be doing really kind of adult sort of gestures, and things like that they like,

Babb Sabbath 7:58

but they've never been in a battle they've never understood battling as a proxy for fighting in the real world. Yeah. Which is, you know, like, you don't have to go that far back for those gestures to mean something very different. Like they were a way of substituting actually punching someone in the face. Yeah, we're gonna chain

Adam Gow 8:16

and he said, yeah, there's, there's a lot of there's a lot of kind of gesturing, isn't there?

Babb Sabbath 8:22

There was a lot of kids who could also like, you know, do air tracks at 12. But they had no funk. Yeah, like they were entirely funkless. They weren't even really listening to the music, they were just doing routines, and then you get older heads that you know, their backs going a little bit and they can't do everything, but they've got so much funk.

Adam Gow 8:39

Exactly. So much. So well. Yeah, when you see it, you'll see your b boy who dances to music - or b girl, sorry. And then you'll see the ones that are just like, right, I need to do my set and move but you get that with scratching as well don't and you'll see people put scratched up and it's like, right, I've got to do my 75 Click flares. Do everything three bars, and then they'll do a bar of whatever else 76 click flare orbits and stuff and it's it it becomes like an endurance sport. Yeah, rather than music.

Babb Sabbath 9:10

I was entirely taken in by that for a while. I thought it was just the best, you know, that sort of like, shortcut yoga frog style of just super intense mega techy scratching, and then saw some like music college funk bands, and had that sort of Epiphany where you like, Ah, you're basically masturbating onstage. Like, really? That's what's happening is you just go in like,

Adam Gow 9:36

yeah, like I call it. Technical funk. Yeah. And it's like,

Babb Sabbath 9:39

there's no, there's no. Again, there's no funk. There's no like, joy in it even it's just technique.

Adam Gow 9:47

Yeah. Yeah. So just going back to your time on them. Are you from Leeds originally Lancaster. Lancaster. Okay. So what was it like getting any further exposure then? Was there much of a community around DJing

there was, like a couple of my friends were in a similar sort of, had a drum machine had some turntables made some stuff on amigas, whatever. And then, like, nearly all of them came over to Leeds, sort of over three years, everyone just moved over. And some of them went to music College, a lot of sort of, like DJ transplants were around that sort of party scene. But I think, like, a lot of the other people around me weren't Hip Hop guys. They were like, sort of tech house free party, people, like, but that's the guy that got my turntables from the techniques that I got when I came here. They were from that sort of world that already been 2 a million free parties with absolutely bat and they're still running on they're still gone.

That's mad. Yeah, I really like that man. It's 20 odd years old now.

Yeah, might not be. I mean, yeah, the marks he was, but they were old when I got on board. But yeah, then slowly sort of found Leeds Hip Hop people. Mike-L was teaching classes at a little tiny community place down at the bottom of Leeds Hyde Park. And then there was like Mattman, Elephino I used to put on like a Saturday afternoon Hip Hop thing in the marine centre in the same place as the only survive and goth night in Leeds. Hilarious. So the goths were in after us on Saturday is the

Merion centre where because obviously Leeds was an important place in the first wave of hip hop in the UK was it the Merion centre, where they used to do stuff back in the 80s. Yeah, it's like

the Merion Centre. So the club in there and the Faversham we're like the birthplace of Goth, I guess. But Elephino was like 14 when he started coming down, so we had to smuggle him into play. And Terminus may weren't officially allowed in but they were tall and we got away with it

must have been good than to be worth getting smuggled in

He was banging. Absolutely. banging. Like, great. He's like...I Tend to kick back when people talk about talent that don't really believe it's a thing. But occasionally, you just get someone like that, where they're just get an mpc and within two months, I wrote my albums ready? No, it was it. Yeah. You just learned how to use it unfinished, like, then I get like, I get people when I'm painting. And either flippantly or not, they'll say talented. And I was make a point of being like, no, like, I'm not talented. Like, I don't believe that's the thing. And there's loads of people that were better than me. I just kept doing it. Like, and you know, was scratching does occasionally I've met people that just had an intrinsic ability to pick things up fast. And that wasn't me, either. But just sticking to it, just carrying on doing it like life is long. You keep doing something regularly, and you get less shit. Yeah, this feels something around the lines of just work on being a bit less crap each time you do something.

It's yeah, there's, like, I think there is such a thing as talent. But like, I definitely take your point that some people we'd like talent doesn't mean success. No, you know,

like, the most talented people I know are. Very, very few of them actually break through and do something with it. Like the people with raw like process and our genius people that I've met, most of them do minimum wage jobs, and you think

it's because they don't appreciate what they've got.

Yeah, it's just like, you know, like, just breathing. It's just there. You can do it.

You can do a lot with

footballers. Yeah, you get like

a promise and just make bad decisions where you get like Cristiano Ronaldo is obviously skillful, but has just worked and worked and worked and worked to become what he became.

Yeah, like I taught coach basketball when I was teaching. And you got kids who were just preposterously good. They were built for it. They had unlimited energy. They were just great. They picked everything up quick, but they didn't have that thing that pushed him into going and joining leads, Tigers or whatever. Yeah. And it's like a work ethic. That's the main thing. It's like the reason the Filipino kids were smashing it and potentially going to be professional athletes is because they just had that like focus and drive and a bit of vision about where you need to be next and what you need to do.

Yeah. So what was it that took you to Leeds then?

my brother was already there. So I had to place Manchester do and film and then came up in the summer. Went to some free parties started seeing a girl was like I'm gonna come to Leeds instead and found a place through clearing did a year at Leeds Met, dropped out, went to a different course doing cultural studies thereafter.

It's what what it is cultural studies.

I mean, it's been weirdly useful. It's one of those ones that gets like Mickey Mouse degreed a lot. It's like, are you doing media and Cultural Studies? Alright, cool. But, like, it's the reason that I sort of have the understanding that half of a lot of the stuff and the music stuff that I've done since is, you know, those ideas of things like cultural capital and circles of practice, and being within sort of groups of people, and moving towards the centre of a sort of circle of practice of people doing some fun. A lot of those things are things from a cultural studies degree.

Did you find a lot of kind of like minded people on the wall? Obviously, they're gonna be like the money to an extent. But people that moved in same circles are people that inspired you in different ways, you might not

think so. There was a kid that put me on to atmosphere in my course that I'm forever grateful for, like copied me some tapes. I can't remember his name. Now I feel really bad about it. But he was just like, every week, he was like, have you heard themselves? Have you heard like, dose one was like, nope, give me give me give me. So yeah, there was people like that. There was also, you know, posh kids, and we had like, a full music studio that was completely full of library records. And I didn't know what library records were. Yeah. And I didn't like the studio was open till like, eight every night with engineers there. didn't touch it. And I feel so bad about it. And then all those library records went in the skip as well. Really, I discovered years later, they were all like full catalogue, like KPM Brunswick, Southern man, I remember like looking through them who's gonna want this like funfair. Whatever. And then when I went back, I knew what they were. And I asked the engineers that just gone. Oh, what could

have been so on, you're on a cultural studies class, but you have full access to an engineer manned studio,

Yeah and , TV studio, and dark rooms. Because I was doing media as well. But right. So I did some photography that basically was good for sort of dilettantes just nipping in and out of doing stuff. But I was just like, you know, never really took it seriously. I was doing all sorts of promoting and started DJing a bit more. And then we started miniature heroes when I was at uni. Which sort of took off when that sort of really, super local UK Hip Hop thing was poppin off.

So that'd been early 2000s, then, yeah,

yeah. Yeah, like very early 2000s from I mean, maybe even from like, 98/9.

So would that predate like all the sort of low life records

movement, then it was concurrent with all of that.

So what was Leeds like, at that time, then? Cuz I mean, low life was, I mean, the UK hip hop scene at that time was quite healthy, wasn't it?

It was super healthy. Yeah, like Braintax wasn't about in Leeds. And there was a funny sort of two stream thing going on with lake, there was the sort of chapeltown More like young Aggie MCs that all wanted to be Mobb Deep. And then there was the floppy, a white student, MCs. And like, there wasn't a huge amount of crossover. And then you get battles where it all come together. And it was like, there's two scenes kind of running in parallel. And then, but like, I've since discovered from like, people that were into like, the hardcore, like guitar, music, hardcore scenes and other sort of underground scenes and leads, there's millions of them all kind of running in parallel, that you don't know about. There's just it seems to be more so than other places. I don't know if it's really busy, but it's just practice rooms, bedrooms, like things.

Do you think that still counts? And is valid today? Yeah.

Yeah. Now, I'm just not a part of it. Now, I look at all the listings.

Because I wonder with things now it's like, where I live, it's like, has everything dried up? Or do I just not know about it? Do you find out about it in different places? I'm just not aware of

it. I think I'm just not privy to it. Yeah. And looked at the full months listings for the Brudenell. And it's like, recognised herb and out of the two, I think, and I kind of went in my ears like maybe first like now now.

Yeah, I don't know. anymore. Sometimes you're looking at I want to recognise their name. Yeah. But it's like, Oh, my

God, they could all be made up. Let someone really take it in the face. Yeah,

I'm old. I'm old and irrelevant now. So what was DJing? Like for you? Were you always just doing Hip Hop gigs? Or would you would you crossover any into anything you were uncomfortable with

later on? I did some sort of corporate take this hard drive, play stuff that gigs. I didn't survive those very well. It was it was just, it was alright. Yeah, it was fine, but I was just too much of a snob when people like like Play Maroon Five, and I might have already played it. So I play it again. No. But what we'll do is put a green spotlight on you for the rest of the night and move it around to me that like a witch.

Have you ever seen when kid Capri shouts people out for like the bad requests and stuff? Is that a thing? And maybe there's a thing on YouTube? Yeah, he really goes to town as well. Yeah. He basically tries to get his whole club to boo this person, like, incredible. I get annoyed him but it's savage. Properly relent. Yeah, check it out.

It's a nice little transfer of the balance of power. When you have those awkward conversations and you'll obviously not know. Yeah, Kidkanevil taught me. He used to have like a regular bar gig. And I was talking to him about it. And he's like, I'll just say, Yeah, it's like, pat him on the back. congratulate them on their amazing taste. But yeah, definitely 100% Great choice. And then they'll come back and you're gonna put that Shakira song. It's like, it's next. It's late. In the box, they're still not on sticking out that one. If they ever come back a third time, then you're like, oh, played it, you know. And like, he said, it's never failed, like, not once has anyone ever called him out on it. And they come away feeling good about themselves, and you get to like snicker be

as genius as NFL have the confidence to pull that off.

I mean, he was like, shy and awkward at the time, but he's like, which always works, congratulate them, pat them on the back.

I think a lot of DJs are the more people I speak to the so many of us are introverted. But then the thing that we do leads us to be in a place that is antithetic antithetic, antithetical to that introversion, you know, particularly since the DJ weird

paradox is that you are the loneliest person in the room. Yeah. Like, you know, there is not going to be anyone else who is lonelier than you on your own at two in the morning, often sober. And just thinking about sorting all of this out.

Yeah, I used to work in a call centre, technical support for BT broadband. And I ended up that, you know, you'd be on the phone constantly, from the moment you logged on till the moment you logged off, and then I own part and got this got this job that I thought was great modem replacements. So I'd sit there all day, with a big spreadsheet and a load of emails, ticking things off to get modems sent out to people, brilliant, I'm not gonna be able to, I'm not going to have to be on the phone all day. But then it was like, I was just sat in silence for eight hours just filling in a spreadsheet, and not really any bad.

I've never done a job of that nature. And it just baffles me. Like I've never worked in an office or a call centre, or anything I've always done quite intense. Like generally face to face jobs with someone who's naturally quite shy is a weird thing to have done. But the idea of doing that, like I know someone who literally had to put binary in for eight hour shifts, really something with Leeds uni where they had to turn all data cards into something, and she had to just type 0101 for eight hours.

I'd love it if there was like personality tests where you could understand because there's got to be people that thrive with something like that. They just want a single task to do, where they can switch off the other part of the brain and just crack on with it. And you know, for a lot of people, it's their worst nightmare. And I wonder if you'd be able to effectively pair people up based on personality profiles with ideal jobs for him. Because it's like putting lids on ketchup. It's got to be people that it's good for

tomorrow got all the the more i realise loads of that is just neurodivergence it's like it's some people's brains are really well suited to that. And if you took it a bit further down that road, there's an actual pathology and a name for it. But yeah, I've got a very ADHD brain, which means I have to bounce between loads of things.

Yeah, let's come on to that in a bit then if you don't mind. Because when you left uni, then what what were you doing and if you've not done any kind of street student graveyard type sort of jobs as art classes.

So I did some bar works and kitchen work DJs enough to make a bit of money. And then worked at sound control. Like we're in the DJ department there. Oh, nice, like couple of days a week. But this was when Vestax was really like popping off and they were releasing like the turntable guitar and all of their mad fader boards and stuff.

I don't know if you saw but the design from Vestax died yesterday. Oh, really? Yeah.

I've been following all like the vintage best tax accounts on Instagram. Yeah, they're amazing. Love it. And so I did that. And then, because I wasn't sure what I was going to do, I went into doing support with kids in schools.

That must have been intense.

It was good. It was It was intense, but it was like, it's one of those jobs, he tell people and they shake the head. And that is great. Like, I'd much prefer the company of kids to adults generally, because they haven't made the mindset, you know, I mean, then you can talk to him. And at the end of a conversation that I, I think something different to what I thought before that, yes. Don't ever change the mind. It's not a thing. Yeah, you'd like to think they do. But they don't really,

I think, yeah, kids can be a lot more open minded currently about a lot of things than adults. Things that might surprise you.

Yeah. And then just you're bounced between stuff always had DJ gigs just coming in. But I looked at people that had made that push and done it as their main job. And it wasn't a healthy lifestyle, like I saw people's you know, like studio tan, and having to move back with their parents and, you know, making all of those sacrifices when I don't wanna do that. It's not, I'm not that committed to it to, you know, occasionally get 200 quid for a gig but basically be broke, and spend seven hours a day learning to cook.

I think at one point as well, from what I saw the difficulty was knowing when to start declaring everything. Yeah, because I knew people that lived for a long time on the cash in hand, but then it's like, if you lose this work, you know, you can't claim benefits and stuff not contributed as far as I know. And, yeah, when's the taxman gonna catch up with you? So there was that side of things as well. You don't need that anxiety now it's just another nother thing to worry about.

It's like off those people though. Like I remember again kidkanevil. Gerrard was like, sort of my model for like, he's doing all right. And he won like a BBC introducing grant. Also. We were very much of a similar level at a time he was getting better but I'm not that committed. Like I'm not that knees deep in that world

were you producing as well and because production

not till a bit later on? Maybe, yeah, like two or three years behind. He's touring with Mia now. They're really producing like drums for massive attack and like it's like, it's paid off. Like it's really paid off. But it's been a long

that's in and I think this is kind of part of doing this podcast really is looking at when you follow your passions, because there's this thing of Do you follow your passions? Or do you go now following your passions for suckers, just just find something steady. Because the chances are, you're making it in your passion and making your passion into a living our lifestyle quite low. But I think what I want to get out of this and give to people, if there's ever a particularly any younger people that listen to this, is understanding what you can get out of following your passion, you might not become that certain thing, but you might be able to leverage it and move. If you kind of flexible about what you want to achieve, you know, it can open doors for you to do other things that are close enough to it to satisfy that need.

And it totally does. I think like, you know, like, just learn, like, entirely teaching yourself something is an amazing thing to have done. Like I was sort of, I was pretty good cotton without any input, say for seeing a few videos like that, you know, not incredible, but I was I was decent. And, you know, subsequently a lot of the things that I've done, I'm not a good student of other people. Like I'm not good at sitting and listening. But I am pretty good at just knuckling down.

Still. Yeah. Did you find your when you were working with the kids, then were you able to connect with him through any of the artistic stuff?

Yeah, did detail workshops with them. It was good. First thing we always did was just teaching them not to be scared. So we'd like get them to put their full body weight on a turntable and polite look just push like really low push like you can like this is the way you can break this bit. Needle. Anything else? Like just smack it? It's fine. Like it's you're safe? And can you get kids that would be banging quickly. But they would just pick it up? Right? So I just do that. So I just be good at scratching, right? Just think that just be good at that. And, you know, I do it with sign painting classes as well. I get some people that come. And they just watching them out. So I just do this. You're already better than I was after like six months. Oh, yeah. Hard work. teaching myself is I can just do it. It's like, I try not to be salty about it. Some people do just pick stuff up fast. Yeah. But there's definitely like parlaying things that you've learned from that world into sort of parallel ventures are.

No, yeah. So at what point was it after doing the after working with the kids that you went into? Was it primary teaching?

Secondary. Yeah, I just still didn't know what I wanted to do. So I was just like, I might as well earn three times as much money. Like teaching assistants don't get paid enough to live really? Yeah, like I would have carried on. I loved it, but you don't get paid enough money to actually buy food. And this was then. Like, it must be less now.

But what were you teaching them? Art?

English? Everyone guesses art! I wasn't even allowed to do my GCSE. I asked him, and he said I wasn't good enough.

Wow, yeah. You've got them now. And yeah,

I need to go back and find him. Mr. Jones, I spoke to someone else who said the same thing. She went back to visit. She's like a solid, graphic designer artist. And she went back to her school, and was late found someone that knew her art teacher that was really disparaging and mean.

Mad. So how did you find it then the English teaching.

It was good it like it really ticks a lot of the same boxes as DJ in life, because you are forward facing, you've got to present this like version. And then you've got your, your headphone version of all your stuff. You've got a plan, you know, the journey that everyone is going on, you know, where you need them to end up. Like, I didn't see a huge difference. And it like for someone who's shy had kind of just got over stage fright. So walking into an assembly, it's like, I can just get into that mode where you're just standing in front of some people, it's fine. And you're broadcasting to some people, that's fine.

So is there an equivalent of something that I think's a big challenge with DJing is when someone's coming up and asking for a request, if you know, if you've not got that kid Knievel technique is you kind of want to talk to them and manage their expectation properly. But you're also trying to do your job and trying to queue up your next tune and stuff. And it's you can't dedicate that, like, I don't really like to dealing with people side of it. But there's been quite a few things where me and my mate have done weddings where he does the majority of the DJing. And I'll kind of be out in the crowd. And then when we deal down call, yeah, you've got the time, you've got the time to converse with them and explain the process and manage them properly. But is there an equivalent of that when you teach him when the kids are saying whatever. And you're like trying to work out how you do the next bit of your lesson plan or anything,

you just you learn to just read the subtext a late, a lot of what people are saying isn't what they say. And you just you know, generally, when kids are shouting, and when people want requests, part of them just wants validation. They want recognition. And they want a second of being able to me, let's see, yeah, I hear what you're saying. I'm getting on with this now. But good shout, yeah, peace. And, you know, that goes a long way to it. And that is a quick one. And I have to do that when I'm, you know, painting media boxes on murals out on the street, you get a queue of people, like I've literally had queues of people waiting, in line to grow. My granddad was a sign painter, I like red can either go wherever, and they just want a second validation. And then, you know, genuinely need a little bit of

steer. Yeah.

But yeah, those like soft skills, it was just managing people, you know, go and like I saw people who were much better at progressing their careers and people who moved to London, who had that sort of ban, self promotion thing down, which is, I think, a different skill, you know, talking to brokers, talking to other people. It's never great at that. But those kinds of soft skills of keeping people happy.

Yeah, I was talking about this in office and environment with someone the other day, that is someone that I want to work with a lot more because I really, really see the value in what they do. And in their workplace, that's not necessarily seen. And we will talk about another person there where there'll be people that get brought in from outside to do a certain job. Because they're seen as this like, exciting, creative, whatever. But then these people that sit there do really good work, but just stay humble. Yeah. They just kind of fly under the radar. And no one thinks, oh, yeah, we should use them. You can like boost them up, whereas they probably do better work in half the time and the people that they're bringing in because they know the Ask a lot more intimately as well. And it's like, it's not about being a knob ed or anything. It's not like you don't have to be kind of arrogant. I don't think it's a lot more nuanced than that. Isn't it? Just this this dealing with peace? It's not that arrogant people get to go further. It's just something about how you

it's like a just a sort of confidence thing. I went to grammar school, and there is just like a sort of level of confidence that you come away with. I see it with people who completely inept and have got that sort of problem score confidence. And like you're objectively an idiot, like you're a smart person, and you're managing this company, and you're basically doing fine, because you've got people working for you. I look at Boris. Yeah, exactly. He's the, you know, the epitome of that. But there is like, I see people who are great, and they constantly diminish themselves, and they miss opportunities, and they're like, Oh, I've got a little business doing this. And like, you haven't got a little business, that you're really good at doing the thing. And people should pay you a lot of money. And, you know, like, I don't always talk about money with people that I'm, you know, do similar jobs. But later, we'll talk about direct some people and the blade, charge how much? And you know, how many people complain about it? Yeah, because, like, part of that is like a cost equals value equation. And if you've got the balls to like, it is that much, that's just how much a day of my time costs, the FMLA, the exactly the same work becomes better and more valuable to them, which is the same with consultants that come in, they can come in and talk shit in front of people. And everyone hangs on their every word, because, you know, someone knows how much they're billing them for

time versus output, isn't it that you paid that you were charging people for? But yeah, sometimes it's like, if you don't charge enough as well, people just don't take you seriously, like, getting your price point, right? It's quite a tricky thing.

And if you do things for free, even for people that you know, that should know better, I've seen people just apply zero value to something that is objectively like good work. Yeah. In you know, across different things across music, and you know, doing bits of engineering for people or painting stuff. I've done things try to help people out not charged. And

yeah, knowing when to do free is a is a really big skill. It's an asset, because it can get your foot in the door for the right thing. But yeah, sometimes you just get walked all over. Yeah. So what was it that led you to leave the teaching? Was it that enough was enough? Or did you then find

so I was doing a Masters while I was teaching everyone art stuff. So I did without even at GCSE. I didn't at masters, right. And initially was sort of going to make education resources and games and things that I was going to paint, got into sign painting, doing that. And then just fell down that same hole of starting scratch, and we're like, this is really hard. And this goes very deep. And I'm just getting, I'm just gonna keep doing it. Like, I expected that I would be good at it. And I wasn't. And I've got a little sort of nabad gear that goes alright. Okay, let's just get good, then. Like, there's a bit of me that can't bear it. Do you

look at things like they're a puzzle to be solved? Yeah. Because I get like that with things like I'm obsessed with Sudoku, specific type of sudoku as well at the moment. And I just like, with things like that, if I struggle with them, I'll be like, I want to understand the strategies of how to do it. Yeah. Me and my missus, played drafts for the first time the other day. Oh, well, I played it for the first time she's played it loads when she was younger. So now that she absolutely won't Wallops me. I need to start reading about drugs because I need to understand why she's beating me. And how I stopped this happened and how I beat her.

Is there an alternate is that strategy to draft,

this is what I need to read. I got like halfway through something and I've got distracted. But I find that with a lot of things. So like, even with something like this project, for example, it's like how do I get this to a place where it's profitable, where it's growing? And someone's like, it's a puzzle, you know, digital marketing campaigns, things like that. It's a puzzle how, you know, you've got this amount of time, this amount of budget, how do you optimise this? And particularly with digital looking at multi channel things? How do you get everything to align and work together? Like, so? Yeah. So I'm not saying well,

if I've got something like that, that's when I'm calm. When my brain has occupied across that many frequencies, like I'm not saying I'm smart, but I required that much input. And to not have loads of just constant chatter going on in my head. I need to let some mixtapes were my favourite for that, like a mixtape as a problem to be solved. You set yourself a brief and you're like, I'm gonna do this or it's going to be this long, or it's just going to be from the sources or, you know, you create some hurdles, and then you just sit and problem solve for every halftone when I was teaching, I would make a mixtape.

I was gonna say to you, how was how was DJing alongside teaching did DJing just go?

Nah. Because I was promoting a night called stone soup that was every Thursday, Wednesday. So every The week in the week, and we were out till like late, and it was busy. And we did like, come to an understanding with the kids about hangovers. That was just like, it was cool that we were alright with it. It's like I'm having a tough day, we all need to be cool. Like, we can have a nice time. But just so you know, like, I'm gonna get the teaching assistant to destroy you. If you've shout. If you're going to be awful, it's going to be a bad time for everyone. And they just got on board with it. They will let Mr. Pickle and everyone was cool.

We like the cool teacher because you're an open book about stuff like that. I think it

helps to know. I don't know that there is such a thing as a call teacher. I remember I did. I was judging a was it a rap battle? I think it was a rap battle at Leeds University. And some of the kids from school were there. And they just couldn't get their head. They were like, What? What is that? If that Where's occurred it can do and sitting up there next to the stage? No, you see, like, you can see kids mines crumbling when you get that, like the code switching doesn't work in the light. But he's from that world. And I'm in this world. And he's that. And so you know, you get a little bit of shame, as I'll make him a CD, or make him a hip hop CD. And they just were like, it's like, this is like Kalashnikov this is like a year and a half old, but that's old, you know, I mean, that's like, they were at that stage where like, it's what's out this month.

To me anything after 2000 is still new. Yeah, exactly. I stay I mean. So when did you discover your ADHD?

So my oldest kid has it much more severely than me. And he's medicated for it. And so we've had to sort of read about it. And the more you read my Oh, that's me. Oh, that's also me. Oh, that's me as well. Yeah. Which has been at late. I speak to lots of adults that have this same thing. But it completely reconfigures what you thought was your personality is sort of the pathology of a chemical deficiency in your brain, like you think you're just interested in stuff. And, you know, like, loads of stuff makes sense, in retrospect, like getting overwhelmed with busy spaces and loud noises and having to take on sort of complex tasks like making a mixtape or learning triple click flares, or whatever.

So with that low rolling noise, yeah,

they're like a hyperfocus thing that's like, really standard ADHD behaviour. And also, like, once it becomes codified, and you know, it's a thing. I realised that basically all of my friends are as well. Like, it's just pretty much without exception, the people that you drift through the world, and you're like, she's gone. He's brilliant. I'll become friends with them. Also, ADHD?

Do you medicate?

I trade, a trade there. So we give our kids Ritalin will consider the new version of Ritalin, which is just speed. And I trade his meds and it is speed like his drugs is not you know, it's not the paracetamol you know about it when you've had it in the morning. It's not like having a cup of coffee. And he has it every morning. He has like a big dose every day. And he struggles if he's off. So no, I'm not down for that. Like it made my skin itch.

I had a similar conversation with someone recently who said he he discovered it and he said it was an absolute game, that he had ADHD that is not the Ritalin. And he said it was an absolute game changer, because it just gave him a lot of clarity about just a lot of things in life. But he said he tried the medication and just really couldn't get on. But just just knowing is enough.

Yeah, you don't beat yourself up so much. Like, I would really beat myself up about stuff that I couldn't do the stuff that I'm good at, but like, give me a tax return. And I'll cry and punch the table and my brain will melt and I can't do it. Like I just get completely overwhelmed with juggle in like a few variables at once. Whereas, you know, give me like a complex bit of writing to copy, edit, or mixtape, and I have no stress and it's completely fine. And I can do it, but certain things. I'm like, Well, I'm just an idiot. I can't function. And it's just like a problem of neurochemistry.

Did you survive? I didn't. Yeah, we got some ganache. COVID a bit about that.

So my friend Paul started bonafide magazine, which was like, what was it called documenting concrete culture was and it was good and he like he was a designer. But it was chock full of mistakes and my English teacher brain couldn't deal with it and it's like, not just let me edit the magazine for you and make it like be correct. And then anything sort of turntable II, like, hip hop he would kind of come to me. And it's that right and features. So I did. Like Ricky Powell got to interview Mixmaster Mike, that was fun, amazing, but in the middle of a gig, so I was I had like a regular five hour gig, and I had to go and see the manager. But I've got to call California at 10 o'clock, I had to go and sit on the floor in a shopping centre with people laid out in town all around me to write stuff down and recorded. When I was good, I carried on doing that for a few years. But, you know, sometimes you have to cut things loose where there is zero money, and quite a lot of work.

Yeah, and if the things that hold you back from excelling in the other things that you care about more,

yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, there has to be some element of kudos for things as well, you know, that you have, you know, I don't think it's especially greedy or self obsessed to once like they started putting someone else's name at the top of articles that have been posted by not written by you. That was very My name at the bottom. And they didn't see why that was a problem. It's kind of a problem. If I'm going to work for free. Yeah, I want just at least a name at the top. Yeah, cuz parlay it into something else.

Yeah, it does. It doesn't look good for your sort of resume does it? If you're saying to people, yeah, I wrote this article, and then they go to a website or whatever, and you name it, it's not even near the top of it, scroll

all the way down. And stuff at the bottom.

So So from starting the sign, right, and I appreciate we've been all over your timeline bouncing about today. Yeah. And not really got into much in terms of the DJing. But I think what's interesting is how you've kind of related the DJ into everything else and the things that you've learned from it. Sort of foundational.

Yeah.

And with the sign right in, I know, when we talked on the phone, you mentioned about the code. This is something I've thought about a lot since we discussed it is you mentioned about training, someone else have been signed right in and another sign write a question in why you might want to do that. But we've talked about how the hip hop culture kind of encourages you to bring other people into the fold. What wouldn't bumper? Yeah, it's like, if this person is in there, like that good, then you've just got to get better. Yeah. You know,

and that like, that is absolute. Like, that's a fundament of that world. Like, I think when we came into it, and Cuba, just made that late, I'm gonna share everything. I'll teach everyone how to do everything. And that is standard practice. There's no hiding anything. There's no like, I can do this, that you don't know what it is. And then yeah, someone is being solely about it. And then there's only two signwriters Don't teach in our house how to do it. Now. I want to create competition or make other people. You know, that's why lead leads was hitting well above its weight for a while, because there was just that critical mass of, you know, Michael and McMahon and combine and cynical and all these people that we're all just like, Oh, if you send like, Matt can do that. Now. Then, you know, Mike's on this now,

was there a lot of like community jamming and stuff? Yeah, just little like

just nipping around people's houses and doing that. And then like, because there was also that kind of perfect storm of a regular night that really pushed residents at drum major. So you know, you got to you knew you were getting better. And you had a regular place with rap nerds that were coming to watch you. And you know, like, week by week, see? Who had new routines who'd kind of got better?

Yeah, I mean, I wish I'd spent more time up in Leeds To be honest,

seem like it was a really healthy thing.

Yeah, I was just too lazy and anxious to go anywhere. Speak to a lot of people listen, and whether it's about things like this, or it's about the club culture and stuff. It's like, I didn't really go anywhere outside my comfort zone at all for about 10 years.

Now. I should have gone to Manchester more, because it's really not very far away. Yeah, it's ridiculous. That interrupts but you can just get there and note I didn't even have a car but it doesn't matter.

What are the because I guess you get about from what assuming the sound right? And you know, you do bits down in Sheffield and here there and everywhere? What's it like up around sort of Leeds and Sheffield for the satellite towns? Are they getting a bit more diverse and say like a normal way or just in in more sort of art things going on?

Again, like, you know, with those sort of scenes that you don't know about, there's just a lot of things that you don't know about those things happen. And you know, you'd like Instagram has been kind of amazing for finding people who are because there's always been like, you'd occasionally come across DJs that were incredible that we're in like fun better in Wales or something. Yeah. And he's just a dude with a MiniDisc player. And it's like, but you're really you'd be cool. rushing it and lead to be absolute. It's late, you know, just lives in a cottage and he makes mixtapes that he got me my friend that does this. And now those people, like have a platform and it sounds kind of cliched, but you have a platform and easy access, like equivalent access to stuff. And you see some people like really crushing it from interesting places. But a lot of that is often kind of divorced from a scene that like it's not part of that local, real world scene, which I think was important. Yeah, I think that was like, you know, that really mattered. Especially when you're learning something tactile, like I remember learning flares from my friend last. And he was like, I was trying, I couldn't get it. And he was like, it's like chicken to walk, get the chicken to walk. And he's like, trying to vocalise how it worked. And he's like, Alright, hold on, this is gonna seem a little bit gay, but just be cool. And he kind of reached his arms around me, like, ghost, I press and put his hands on mine, it's like, just relax, and just relax. Just do this, just do this, just do this. And it's like, kind of you just pop it with me for a bit. Now, like, you know, a real world physical thing. Yeah. So

weird, though, isn't it with the mechanics, because with things like flare, you're, you're activating an arms, you're activating an off switch, rather than an on switch.

And my brain couldn't do it. Yeah, through listening through words through, you know, all the other things like patterns and things. And he's like, I know what we need to do. Yeah, I'm just gonna make you my puppet for a minute, and you'll know what to do flowers. And ever since then, I have a little Patrick Swayze moment, when I start doing flowers. He's behind me,

I find it we drumkits where if I was if I wanted to learn anything, sort of we'd like ghost notes involved are in use, I just used to get on a drum kit whenever I could. And it was usually at the end of brass band. That was my life as 1012 13 year old. And you just really have to slow things down to probably try to do a beat at about 45 BPM or something like that just to get understand the mechanics so that you can speed it up and and kind of take it from like a left brain thing to a right brain to the end. Stop overthinking about it.

That's why I got fired from my sound control job playing the drums. Really, whenever it was quiet, they had that Roland TD 10, the digital kimkins on. I was like, well, there's no one here. Like, No one's buying DJ stuff today. So I'm gonna play the drums and bass, I just sat in the shop just getting paid to play the drums I kind of need to just piss off now. Come to work and play the drums.

Sounds like a dream. Yeah,

it was fun. while it lasted. I'd been great. And you know, occasionally someone had come in for, you know, spending a fortune. And they had to have someone that knew about turntables and PA and things. It was like, sort of useful from time to time, but I can't pretend to be busy when I'm not.

Yeah. So just going back to the SignWriting then how did that kind of blow up because you because you get quite a lot of things. It's like, like breweries and stuff. I since I'm quite good networker where you get the work from? Is any of that fallout of any of the other sort of cultural endeavours that you've done? Or like, how did the business grow? Yeah, all

just ties together? I don't know. I mean, I would say I'm probably significantly more successful in that than the music things that I tried. And partly, it was just a question of timing. You know, you look at a lot of people that are successful, it's not necessarily anything to do with being the best at something. It's just hitting a window perfectly and been able to read it out. But like, also, I had to leave teaching, I was burnt out, and I couldn't deal with it anymore. I've been good at it. And everyone's like, well, that must be hard. I was like, No,

it's how many years? Was it? 12 Oh, wow. Yeah.

And the one I had to go, I had to go. So I just like, I need to make this be a thing that works and take it seriously. And I think doing a master's degree. Later, I was a bit of a contrary student and didn't like a lot of the stuff on my course. But what they do do is make you take yourself seriously as an artist, like they don't let you be a hobbyist. Like you have to account for what you're doing and explain what you're doing. And, you know, talk about your practice and your what your art is, without making excuses as their craft like my dissertation was about the nature of art versus craft, like the identity of like a craft person and an artist being different and a craft person being like community facing and an artist being sort of internally looking for inspiration inside them. And some of that was from you know, doing other community facing music stuff and having that understanding but Just like having some style, having the capacity to just knuckle down, teach myself to do something and be good at it. And the other people that had done it, generationally just slipping off and stopping or played into it just worked. And I think the fact that I can bounce between like the same route, as I know, in London, a lot of them because there's so much work, they specialise, and they'll just do gold, or they'll do vintage vehicle restoration, or do shop signs or do murals. I just kind of do FM. I just bounced between loads of things. So I never have fallow periods, because there's always something from one year to coming up.

So something I used to do in DJing, which probably caused me No, no headaches. But when I worked in marketing, and sort of content was quite beneficial was just saying yes, before really thinking something through your work out to do it later on. But I've done that with DJing. You get like, a day before a gig and you're like, I've not prepared for this. So how am I going to get through this thing? And I've maybe not panic attacks, but I've stressed out about it a lot.

But you've never completely screwed it up, right? You've always kind of got away with it.

Oh, yeah. And I found it something that helped me in really good stead when I moved into a particular job because that right? We need someone to work in project managing on this big video production. I'm like, yep, do that never done it before. It's like, I put in the hours, I'll do long days. You know, I didn't have to say this too. And I just did it. And that's what helped me to do that. Because you'll just work until you get it right.

I mean, that's the privilege of being a tall white guy. Partly, as far as you know, like, I attribute some of it to having gone to the school or went to, but also like, I know women that are in most respects better or whatever they do than the people around him, but they don't have that particular gear with like ELT that. Yeah, of course, I'm definitely no problem. We'll do that. Because they'll legitimately blame I'm not sure that that's quite within my wheelhouse. And then someone who's less qualified is like, how do I say no to very little. And I'd nearly always get away with it. I just teach myself how to do things.

I had I heard of a CEO referring to it's like white man's confidence or something like that recently? Absolutely. Yes. And he's like, Yeah, I'll do that. What's the worst thing that could happen? We'll

let you know. And even if you fail, you get the kudos of being a go getter that tried to do Yeah, I mean, like, it's crazy. And I increasingly get frustrated at people I know that don't have that. And I do little pep talks for people and like, don't get don't diminish your business. Don't say no, just be like a cocky little gobshite and just say, yeah, yeah, of course, I can do that course layout. You know, some of the first murals that I did were like 90 foot long, giant lettering on the side of some hardens. And like, can you do that?

Yeah.

And you know, you just with a mix of ingenuity and asking people and tape measures and computers, which that figured out was fine. And then things didn't work just fit, like also having the capacity to problem solve on the fly. And not cry about it. I've nearly always got away with it. Two or three times have not. It's been fine anyway.

Yeah. And you've had projects on telly as well, haven't you?

I've got a new thing coming up soon. That should have been out this month, new Stephen Graham thing that I did tonnes of stuff for. And again, like, someone came on my course that I was teaching, got in touch from Netflix and was like, we're doing a thing set in the future. Can you do a memorial spray paint mural from the future? In a year's time from a giant calamity and yeah, I'll do that. Definitely.

Graph. Yeah,

it was never great. I was I couldn't claim to be a good graphic writer. Drunken Graf did some pieces did some bits and bits that occasionally Oh, wow. It's still how is that still there? But yeah, this Netflix thing just snowballed into, like painting whole streets, sides of buildings and just ageing down sets, like just doing sort of a sector decorators work but awesome. All set decks can't use graffiti. Stuff like and they they know that i It'll look dogshit if I come in, right, Jeff was here because you can read that a mile off. So having that kind of cultural capital to know what it's supposed to look like. And spurred network of people to join to come and paint the set. For a day. I'll just get a whole box of paint and you can just kick stuff about So I had a couple of weeks of destroying Wentworth estate.

It's always nice to pull your mates in as well, isn't

it? Yeah. And straight up in hole just covering sides of buildings and painting loads of fake graffiti that had to come and get stuck in for last two hours that they're filming.

So what does DJing look like for you now then?

From that world, I have been doing some production, I went over to working on it in Manchester that's like a instrumental hip hop, the

hip hop chip shop. Yeah,

in Manchester. That loan apostrophe does who used to MC with me a long time ago. And playing like beat sets of koala on the and then deciding whether I get back into putting everything together or divest myself of four or 5000 records. And I think where you were a few years ago, right?

Yeah, I mean, I ditched a lot. But I've kind of came back to it a few years later. And I mean, I'm enjoying it. And excuse me. It's kind of like, once you do something once, say some sort of creative endeavour, they'd say, You recorded a mix on the computer and multi tracks all updated or to do that file disappeared. You're not going to get the same thing again. But what you will do is, you'd be like, well, I can do that quicker, and more

efficiently. Sure. Yeah. And I think

ditching all the records by in again, I'm not saying everything I buy is a good purchase. But comparatively to the first time around that I did, I'm old. I'm quite a lot more ruthless. Now. I think about putting things back and getting something if I want it, I'd rather now buy one thing that's 15 quid, then five, that three, for example. Yeah. And, and just having that benefit of a bit of wisdom of buying again. And knowing knowing what it might look like for buy certain things like, really, how much time do I have to spend sampling? At the moment, there's loads of things I bought, because they've got samples on him.

A lot of my collection is that there are things that I'm not going to want to listen to, but they've got like that 40,000 Headman tune on your mix. Like I've used that in a mix before as well. The rest of the record that it's from I forget who it is. Moody Blues. No,

no. Don't be the flute on it, isn't it? Yeah.

I've got it on a comp rest of it's awful. Yeah, I should, I wouldn't even necessarily play that whole tune out. But I've just got so much. I've got so much spoken word. I've got like an offensive amount of spoken word. Bird voices of Wales volumes one to four.

I think that sort of stuff was such a big thing in the land ninja to mow wax sort of era.

And that's hardwired into mated. One all of that.

Yeah, I think it'd be hard to hard to do a lot with things like that without it sounding a little bit dated.

Yeah. Yeah. But if it's stuff that you love it like, I don't want to use it necessarily. I want to get rid of it. But I've spent a long time building a very odd little collection of super nice spoken word stuff.

Yeah. My advice would be if you don't need the space, and you're not trying to move anywhere anytime soon. Keep them.

Yeah, I would sooner lose, like, import Hip Hop twelves from the early 2000s. Yeah. the exploits of bluster baits a northern demolition guy that predates Fred Dibnah, I mean lightning stories about blowing up chimneys.

With that, if you get rid of that, it won't take you long to find another copy. Well, to know when they send it once. Really? Yeah, I've seen a few of them have Yeah. Is there anything that we've not covered? Do you think in terms of DJing or anything else? So

the balance in the middle, so there was miniature heroes, which was lazy arrow and we did quite well. We were about her on the front of undercover magazine and did some recording. They travelled around at some gigs. And that was kind of production cuts and stuff. And then sounded the Baskervilles band that was like a big funk band.

So just to say was just on the doing the cuts for bands then, because I used to do it a little bit. It's not something I'd kind of recommend anyone to listen to. But what I struggled with Is the repetition of going and doing the same thing every time would you? Would you repeat or would you freestyle

freestyle with a phrase but like so I don't have a great ear for, like pitch and music. Like I couldn't tell if something's in key, like rhythmically solid, but I would have a lot of like, like those Ritchie rocker, and Chris gear studs, like a tone record. Oh, yeah. And I would sit with one of the writers and be like, Okay, so this is insane, right. So find me at sea and I would tape it off. And then we would do like really laboriously put together actual musical turntable things. That had to be repeated. But they were like, interesting technical challenges and like early sort of loop station, things like trying to sync a loop station with abandoned build phrases. I never got bored I played the tambourine. I really temporary. That's fun. Yeah, I

think I've struggled with that. Hiring though, as well, isn't it? Yeah,

it was like it was a good sort of physical, hip hop party band. It was like, it was a fun thing to do. But it's hard to maintain. Like, I think we got up to 12 pieces, maybe. With horns and stuff. At one point. It's like keeping all of that in the air.

It's a lot and, and I always used to think it was interesting with bands. Well, if I do like little pub sets early on, when I was DJing. You might be getting paid 50 quid to play for half an hour. Yeah, like an entire band. They're probably getting 2025 quid between them. Awesome. They were at

gigs, where you'd literally be getting fractions of a pound. Yeah, two pound 30. Okay. But you also get to that point, and you abandon the idea of it making you any money at all. Yeah, we're paying to be in this band with petrol and stuff. But it's fine. It's fun. If you're loving it now. It's like a bunch of pirates with your mates. You get to go Murad all over rocket places. Which is, you know, I feel sorry, people never get to do that. Like, it's a rare experience. And it's special.

Yeah, I think with with the band I did stuff with it was the travelling around with them all. That was a big thing for me. Yeah. Because they were just a lovely bunch of people. And we got to go do some stuff. And we got to looked after you know. Yeah. And the guy that organised everything was pretty solid, made sure everyone got their, you know, got decent petrol money and all this and paid whatever he could, you know. And, you know, it was it was pretty fair like that.

I think you get, you know, I've always had that, like, I had a note that I put on, where we got some free drinks, if it was really busy, 50 quid in total, for, you know, when we'd put all sorts of stuff on, like, we would get loads of UNSCOM and play we got like, we hosted on the Votel finders keepers tour every month for a bit. And we just did all of it on a shoestring used to like raffle off records and paintings and stuff. Yeah. And we just but everyone knew that, like, you know, we never took anything, like we're doing it for free. And we've, like, look, we've got 50 quid. We've got three people on, you can have 20 quid each because we've, you know, ruffled some stuff.

Yeah, that's

a gear that people should understand.

Yeah, I think a lot of people get it. That there's things I'll do happily for free, where I'm like, you know, it's not someone mugging you off. And then sometimes someone might want you to do sometimes it's worse if someone wants you to do something for a lower amount, than if they want you to do it for free, because they're doing it for different reasons.

Yeah. I mean, I am at a stage now where I'm entirely happy to tell people to stick it up their ass when they asked me to do stuff for free. Yeah, if I like because I just my radar is strong for when people are taking the mick. And if someone says the word exposure. I'm not into your exposure. Yeah, I'm good. Thanks. All right, for your exposure.

Right, just before we call time on it. Is there anything that you think we've missed? That's a key piece of advice for any up and coming DJs?

The I don't know. I think like if I was mentoring someone, just trying to help someone understand the nature of time, like how long you have. And you know, if you can just do two hours a day, if you can do an hour a day for half an hour a day, practising something, you'll be pretty good at it after a year. I've had a common doesn't like, it seems like it's an insurmountable thing. But just chip away, like, you know, the advice that is useful the older you get, is the not very glamorous, exciting advice, but just like just keep doing some fun. Yeah, aim to be a bit less shitter. Before you know it, you're like alright, fine,

amazing and just One last question then. Who would you like to see on this podcast and why?

Miko? Dr. Miko Yeah, he's got some good stories for you for sure. And then if you're gonna get some Americans, Kid koala, my all time favourite equals get koala. I'd love to get on our on Wednesday night at work in men's club and I just thought I'd go and see some cuts and it was the most extravagant ridiculous performance I've ever seen. There was like hundreds paper aeroplanes, trampolines, five costume changes, beekeepers outfits that you just like, oh, it's insane. That's what

I'd love to get into with him how we can have springboards all different types of media from the turntables. Yeah, you know, it gets into its books, it's computer games, it's TV shows. It's just everything and

I just get the impression that he doesn't compete with anyone else. Like he just has ideas and chases them down. Yeah, he's got that sort of small town mentality where he's just like, there isn't anyone around me that's doing it. So what if, yeah, it was like this. I want body peace. Oh, okay. Peace is mine. Just my favourite is a genius. That's like an unenviable Korea of just doing incredible work again and again and again. For you know, like, never necessarily going to blow up because it's niche, but there's so much going on. Like it's so deep and clever.

And he was a good guy. What was the record shop?

banquet? Yes. Yeah.

They're good things about him as a record.

What John first right. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah. Yeah, couldn't praise buddy. Peace enough laid some of those mixtapes just years later, I'll still bet Oh, you hit that own little easter egg. Hidin. Yeah.

Awesome. Cool. Good stuff. Thanks a lot for your time. Kieran. Where can people find you online?

Instagram, Bob, double B underscore Sabbath. That I science.com.

And it's Bob Sabbath because it was DJ Boom. That's right. Why DJ baboon.

It's sort of lost to the Sands of Time. I think it was briefly. Dexter, dexterous. Gladly, that one's buried. Actually, it was something to do with talking nonsense with my little brothers. And we've never quite worked out where it came from. But I just stuck with it. But I think most people are for DJ name, aren't especially proud of it and wouldn't have chosen as older people. Now that's what it is

on Reddit the other day asking what people's DJ names are and why. And I was expecting some really crazy stories. There weren't many. The generally

people don't want to share that terrible one.

Yeah. Well, I like this. And I like this. Yeah. Anyway, Lagos. Thank you very much for your time. Lovely. Cheers. Take care. Thanks.