Shownotes
Gautam Raj Anand, the founder of Hubhopper, South Asia's largest podcasting platform, joins me, Toby Goodman, to discuss the true metrics of podcast success for business, SaaS business retention challenges and more…
In this conversation:
• Helping friends talk about what you do
• Quality over quantity in podcast listens
• Pod-fade / Why most podcasts die
• The tactical role of dynamic ads
• The importance of linking business goals to podcasting for business.
• What companies that want to podcast due to fear of missing out can avoid the red ocean
• Using dynamic audio to support business without external sponsorship
Time-stamps:
00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
00:49 Podcasting Success Metrics
01:18 Who is Gautam Raj Anand?
02:10 Starting a Podcast: Key Considerations
04:14 The Importance of Content and Consistency
05:31 Avoiding Podfade and Maintaining Momentum
06:38 Monetization and Audience Engagement
07:17 Tailoring Podcasts for Business Goals
15:57 Dynamic Ads and Content Repurposing
18:53 Addressing Podcast FOMO
30:48 Quality Over Quantity in Podcasting
Guest Deets:
Find Gautam at: https://hubhopper.com/
Connect with Gautam on LinkedIn
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Transcripts
Gautam Raj Anand: potential of podcasting, the repurposing of the content into format A, format B, format C .
Toby Goodman: If your podcast isn't pulling in thousands of downloads, does that mean it's failing? I'm Toby Goodman, and in this episode of 'Not Another Business Podcast', I'm joined by Gautam Raj Anand, as we break down what real podcast success looks like for business leaders and how we both communicate our value.
Toby Goodman: Whether you are just starting out or wondering if your show is worth continuing, this episode will help you focus on the metrics that matter and how podcasting can save you valuable time as your business scales. Gautam is the founder of Hubhopper, south Asia's largest podcasting platform that
oodman: democratizes podcast [:Toby Goodman: If you are in business and identify as pod curious, or your podcast isn't working out the way you'd hoped, I've got more for you, including episodes, my bestselling book, Narrow Podcasting and Profitable-Pod Method Skill Sessions. For all that and more about how I can support your business, head over to NarrowPodcasting.com
Toby Goodman: So I asked, you and I, of course, we've been friends for almost exactly a year now.
d you've of course written a [:Toby Goodman: If I was to ask. you what is it that I can tell these companies that you bring to the table that would actually take their podcast to the next level? What is it that you think I would, describe you as to these organizations and where do you fit into this entire puzzle?
Toby Goodman: Thanks for asking . I asked someone this on LinkedIn the other day, somebody who I just met, who told me that she was having a not great time in business, and I said, who can I introduce you to and what do I say?
nd of things are they saying [:Toby Goodman: So it appears on Apple and Spotify and all of that stuff, which is awesome. Awesome piece of tech, and you also have a bunch of engineers and people that will take out the ahs and the ums and make it sound clean and beautiful. The one thing that I have that you don't have is years and years of experience helping people decide what they're gonna say, when they're gonna say it, and how they're gonna say it.
reate podcasts to help their [:Toby Goodman: Not write it not do a blog, not do a reel on Insta, not do a TikTok. If they can start with a podcast, a recorded conversation, they can repurpose it into all of the other marketing content that people need. And it's a human interaction like this is, so my expertise is in working out what the position of the podcast is.
s another busy job because I [:Toby Goodman: In the podcast realm, there's this thing called pod fade, which means people who give up without announcing, they're giving up, they just fade away. And people do that because they don't know what to do. They dunno what to say next. And. I dunno what they need to say next, but if they tell me they've got a business, I've got a pretty good idea of what they might want to say next to keep things going.
Toby Goodman: People who start podcasts because they want to become influencers or the podcast is the business that they want to have. I can't help those people. That's not what I'm interested in doing. But it's in the interest of most hosting companies and most microphone manufacturers to tell everyone they can be famous stars if they start a podcast because it's easy to sell a microphone to someone that does that.
n based business has. If you [:Toby Goodman: don't know how to speak very well. They're feeling their way through . If they don't already have a fan base, a podcast is probably not the best way to start monetizing being an influencer, right? So I'm really only interested in working with... Professionals in business who have already got a business.
es all the time. You need to [:Toby Goodman: Yeah. and get new ones in. And so, the reason why I'm a good person to know is because if I work with a proportion of your clients, not all of them, probably a very small proportion of them, I can make sure they stay for longer, because I know on the backend you have got. Exceptional levels of service.
Toby Goodman: And you've got tech that works. But the thing that you're not doing because you're busy building a tech business is helping people decide what they're putting into their microphones and out into the world. No, I think I'm, that's very succinctly, put, and I always leave my conversations with you Toby scratching my head and I.
nter the world as generalist [:Toby Goodman: And I like that you, you not just self proclaim, but you've consistently reiterated that you are a specialist in what you do. Let me, I asked you an even more nuanced question, which is that let's say hypothetically an organization was already using a HubHopper for hosting and distribution and was already using a HubHopper Productions to make their podcast.
Toby Goodman: And they're getting their podcast out there, but they still needed a podcast coach as it were, and they needed somebody to basically guide them as the episodes were coming out and what to do, what not to do, et cetera. To basically avoid the the, to avoid the ditch of. Like you said, making the podcast into a business of its own.
ganization already has their [:Toby Goodman: Yeah. So there's two kinds of client from my standpoint, there's people who are thinking of starting a podcast who meet my criteria, and there are people who are already podcasting and it's not quite working out the way they'd hoped, or they're just a little bit lost at this any given point, right?
Toby Goodman: And if we're talking about the second, they've already worked out the tech and they found you. . The first thing I would do with people like that is look at what they've already put out. And if you've read my book , you'll know that a very small portion of it is about.
fter you have published your [: to where you are saying when [:Toby Goodman: If you are this kind of business, whatever the guidelines are, you get as part of your onboarding or loyalty reward. If you've been with us for a while, we have five slots with Toby Goodman every month that we're offering for free. And then, we work out whether it's free or whether it's this, I'm, if it's my time, it's limited, but I have a course.
Toby Goodman: And I have podcast, Profitable-Pod method skill sessions that speak to not just how to start your podcast, but how to keep it going and how to make sure you are using it to grow your business and not falling into the ditch of Yeah. Yeah, just going, ah, how's it paying? How do I me, how do I measure it?
same questions over and over [:Toby Goodman: That's the kind of, that's the kind of, it sounds dull and boring, but man, it keeps employees happy and enjoying their jobs so they can focus on what they've been hired to do, and they're not firefighting for mm-hmm. CEO. So that's question a more nuanced version of an answer to that question.
Toby Goodman: Is that helpful? No, very helpful. And more so I would say it's because, on a daily basis, we hear about the number of people that are starting a podcast. Yeah. And on a daily basis we see the number of organizations starting a podcast, and this news is coming out consistently and we're constantly hearing about the migration of people into this medium.
eath rate only because it is [:Toby Goodman: Yeah. And by the what the statistic says by the fourth episode 60% drop off by the 11th episode. Only 1% remain. And that is scary, right? And simply put, I think like you being the compass that gives them. And when I say them, the subset of them that are organizations that are looking to create a podcast for furthering their organization.
Toby Goodman: You give them a fighting chance to survive. And that's a pretty worthy goal. Sometimes 10 episodes, 'cause there's this other thing that happens, which is should we be an always on podcast? Should we be every week forever? Yeah. Yeah. I'm, should we do seasons? Classic question.
odman: Podcast land. Yeah. I [:Toby Goodman: So that you are setting out your stall of who you are and what you do, what problems your business solves for its customers, clients, et cetera. And it addresses every, the most common frequently asked questions people come to you with. If you had that as an asset in your business as 10 episodes, I'd wanna make sure that was something
out cancer coming up all the [:Toby Goodman: Yes. But. They want to hear it in your tone of voice, in your accent, because they're going to your hospital to get treated. That's gonna, that's gonna help you. Why would they stay with HubHopper? They will maintain their hosting because they'd wanna make sure it's accessible all the time. And they would want to use dynamic ads
Toby Goodman: to change what was going on around the core message of the podcast, depending on what was happening in their business. So for a healthcare organization I can remember one of the episodes was about hair loss. Like very, very important question to answer as someone discovers that they're gonna get certain treatments or what have you.
who's gonna do that. But the [:Toby Goodman: That is how you are mixing then legacy content with what's happening now, using the dynamic ads and keeping the value of that episode. 'cause you don't wanna keep talking about the basics of hair loss if. The basics of hair loss broadly remain the same. What you could expect during a chemo or radiotherapy or whatever, that will broadly remain the same for six months, years at a time.
with what's going on in and [:Toby Goodman: Who can explain what dynamic ads do. And at the moment, I imagine that's not something most people I talk to about dynamic ads still dunno what they are and why they need them. And they also assume that they're selling them. When they do have them, they'll be selling them to Nike and Harley Davidson.
Toby Goodman: But if they're already a business, they just need to use them to put in whatever's coming up next in their organization. That's how they use them and that's how they measure. They measure success when their team goes, this is great. I've shared that podcast 50 times with everyone that's come to the desk.
fervor of podcasts. But more [:Toby Goodman: In their own lives on a daily basis. So not to add one more break on their back, but rather to figure out how to make the load that they're already carrying feel a little lighter. I would say one of the problem statements that, once again, you're seeing with businesses specifically with podcasts, and I don't know whether you're seeing this in the uk, but you're seeing this on our side of the world, is that there's a big feeling of fomo with podcasting.
Toby Goodman: A lot of businesses are starting a podcast because they think they ought to. Now one of the, and I'm purposely trying to ask you a slightly difficult question. Which is that I think people benefit tremendously when they have self-awareness and they're speaking to you, especially when it comes to podcasting.
ng them do what they do. But [:Toby Goodman: And my answer was no better than saying it's because. I think I should, and that guy is, and that's why I'm starting a podcast. How would you address that cohort of people? Because I promise you that cohort's pretty big. Yeah. And at least in my side of the world, it's pretty big. The answer to that for me is, okay let's be clear. Do you have capacity to do this? Do you have time, capacity? If you think you should, and you've got the money to do it. And there's a couple of things you can do with podcasting that will help you. Somebody told you that your competitor is doing podcasting and you should do it.
ketplace. And I'm interested [:Toby Goodman: Mine's about, yeah, mine's also about this. So yeah, I be careful of that as well. Second of all, if you are not willing to sit down and do the work and understand what good questions are and basically what good journalism is to a certain degree, and God knows I've learned that along the way in terms of
Toby Goodman: working out what to ask my guests or what to say on a solo podcast or help helping my clients do the same. If you are, if you don't have the time to do that, outsource it. Find somebody who will be the host of your podcast. You don't have to be the face of it. You don't have to speak on a podcast to have a podcast for your business.
it. 'cause if you've got the [:Toby Goodman: The other way is to say, okay, this the even smarter way, the even easier way to do it is to say, who's got a podcast? Who's already serving my target market? And can I sponsor them? So if I am doing a health and fitness podcast. And somebody who's a, I dunno, a Peloton type character wants to do the Peloton podcast, I might say to the Peloton type people you could do one that could be great.
e, or a food brand, could be [:Toby Goodman: healthy eating podcast or whatever it might be. So maybe don't, yeah, maybe don't do a podcast, but still use the medium by understanding how it works. Yeah. And if you understand how it works, then you know that host-read Ads in podcasts that have already got massive followings are very sound investments in marketing.
Toby Goodman: No I take this a step further which is there are companies that I think did this so effectively because they bought host-read ads in. Podcasts, which weren't that big at the time. Almost pennies to the dollar back in the day. Yeah. That now don't do any form of branding, any form of, top of funnel marketing.
e it, a few thousand dollars [:Toby Goodman: Yeah. But you just need to continue and you need brand awareness in this growing media scape or however you wanna describe podcasting. Then let's look at all your options and then make a decision. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, 100%. And if anybody wants to actually see this success story have played out, just check out Casper Mattresses, dollar Shave Club and case studies like that.
, I'll just ask you possibly [:Gautam Raj Anand: I always believed that you've had insane foresight with the medium. I think, you probably prior to anybody else, I can say this being in the industry for 10 years myself, prior to anybody else, I think you, you foresaw the repurposing
Gautam Raj Anand: potential of podcasting, the repurposing of the content into format A, format B, format C, format D. And for those of you who are watching this and don't know I. Toby has proof, he has he, he actually drew something out. I don't even know how many years ago this was which described exactly what is taking place today.
Gautam Raj Anand: So it's insane to see. And and I promise you, is not paid. Need me to say this. I, I find it very fascinating 'cause you've got a very astute viewpoint on podcasting.
ng it and using it again and [:So we started this conversation. Talking about the fact that it was the, the human connection, you can repurpose it, it saves you time, da. I still stand by all of that. I stand by the fact that if you have a personal conversation and connection with somebody, the tone is super powerful. Without the camera on is, it's brilliant.
re's almost no excuse not to [:Because it's so easy to click a button that says, create a highlight reel, or what have you. So easy to do that. So I think, there will be the next Insta, the next TikTok, whether it's Blue Sky or whether it's something else. There will always be more platforms and they'll always be more intelligent and better
ai, GPTs, whatever. There'll always be updated versions of that, but there will never ever be a version of a video phone call that, that, that is close as this. That has you looking down, thinking about what I'm saying with your arm up in the air, just listening and me gesticulating with a stupid background, there won't really be that.
l the source content. So I'm [:But frankly, if you've got a good tech stack, which is HubHopper and whatever else, whatever web hosting you've got, if you are tight with your tech and there's no reason, you can't be everywhere. So this week I started putting stuff up on YouTube for the first time ever yesterday. I published a podcast.
It [: hort snippet of something on [: y life to do. Because tech in:We could not convince people. I'm glad I kept it because I'm like, I told you, me too. My audio's in the middle and then it's Yeah, all the things. But I'll put it up 'cause it's, it, I'm really happy I showed that to you and I posted it on LinkedIn about six months ago, didn't I? And I was like, oh shit.
use other people worked out, [:So the final question that I have is probably the thing I find most interesting is while the world is chasing downloads and streams and listens or whatever word, one fancies, you decided to name a book called Narrow Podcasting, and you've always focused on quality lessons, fewer lessons, the number of lessons at times, not even mattering at all. Not chasing the vanity metric, but chasing the, so not chasing the dopamine, but chasing a healthier hormone.
view viewpoint from the rest [:What would your message to these people be? Whether that even the one with 500 views may actually be the one that is more relevant to your business than the one with 50,000 views. If they're already you've been doing years. If they're already putting it out and they don't feel like they're seeing the results, but they happen to be creating blogs and new newsletters from the content that's going out to their email list, then I would argue it's probably working for the better than they think it is already, if they're being smart about the repurposing part of it.
ople who wanna use a podcast [:But they're using the technology such as it is to retain and keep their. Their members or their team informed. Sometimes some industries, specifically healthcare, need to create private podcasts as they call it, because of laws around, when people talk about medicines that are not on the market, whatever, that has to be kept inside.
with her organization and I [:Between five and six years time, and so let's rest. So like I'm, I literally was so happy she told me that. Because it was a human goal. It was a thing that I under, I understand exactly what that's about. So now I can say what needs to be true to make sure that is that, that you go there, that you move to Thailand, what needs to be true.
Okay. You need to be making X amount of money dah. How can we use content and the podcast and other strategies, not just podcasting, to make sure that your message is being heard by the right people so that they join your organization, hire your organization, or stay at your organization. That's it.
na make sure you retain your [:Which is insane. 'cause then you're getting someone to do work that you don't wanna do, but they wanna do, and that's why you have a team. Dunno if that answers your question at all, really, but No, it does. It does. And more than my question, I wanted the audience to hear that.
ou were to ask which podcast [:I, there are chances that it could be the former, but I would say that probability lies in the latter. Yeah. \My, one of my clients, Chris, was doing a bit a businessy business leadership podcast. He named one of his episodes 50 Shades of Gray as a joke, and it got. Thousands more downloads than normal.
And he couldn't believe what was going on. But it was fake traffic, 'cause he had a funny title. He got the wrong people, he got the wrong people listening to his podcast. Yeah. I think people will think of podcasts as a bright, shiny object and unless they are. In the media and they're trying to do all of that kind of celebrity, what have you.
na hire me anyway. And also, [:Makes sense. Couldnt agree more with you, and that's why both you and I are in the businesses that we are in. And I'm so glad we did this, my friend.
is that it's very important [:But it's not, and you probably have a much stronger podcast going forward if you asked yourself those. Slightly difficult, perhaps, potentially irritating questions. Almost like a self-reflective self therapy. Session. So I think those fundamentals are what you keep bringing people back to.
It's always just pulling people back to center, pulling people back and getting them to a gravity that'll make them comfortable. So that's my takeaway more than anything else. I love it. I love it. And yeah, if your business is already broken, then starting a podcast isn't, probably, isn't gonna save it, right?
things you need to do first. [:What, whichever way. Yeah. Awesome. Love that. That was impromptu, it was authentic and it was raw. I liked it. I liked it. It was very honest. Nice, lovely conversation, man.
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please give it a five star review and share it with someone you think it would help. If you are a business owner considering podcasting, or you are not getting the results you wanted from the podcast you have, I've got more episodes, a bestselling book, Narrow Podcasting and Profitable-Pod Method Skill Sessions, all designed to help you where you are right now.
For all of that and how I can support your business, head over to NarrowPodcasting.com
