Leadership coach Keith J. Corbin and I talk about what's missing from mainstream leadership advice — and why the inspirational messages we see on LinkedIn and in bestselling business books often obscure the structural realities of work. And that’s putting it way too nicely.

What We Discuss

The Simon Sinek problem

Keith tells the story of working for a CEO who was a devoted Simon Sinek fan — who quoted Start With Why constantly — and then did a massive layoff right before IPO. How can you believe in "taking care of your people" and then respond to investor pressure in ways that contradict that belief? The answer: leaders aren't free agents. They operate within systems that constrain their choices.

Why "Start With Why" landed when it did

The book arrived in late 2009, just as the economy was recovering from the 2008 crash and entering a long hiring boom. Caring about employees became structurally important because retention mattered. The message was real — but it was also enabled by market conditions.

Missionaries vs. mercenaries

Leaders love to say they want people who believe in the mission, not people who just want a paycheck. But we're all both. And when people over-identify with the cause, they can neglect their own material interests — which allows the system to extract more from them.

The problem with universal advice

When someone on LinkedIn says "here's how to stand out" or "here's how to push back on your boss," Keith asks: who is the particular person being turned into the universal? It's usually someone with privilege, social capital, and easy job mobility — and the advice doesn't transfer to everyone else's lived experience.

Fakey language

I remember reading Chip Conley's book Peak (I forgot the name during the conversation, but my Amazon orders list always remembers) about treating hotel customers as "guests" — and realizing that guests don't get a bill at the end. Keith shares Simon Sinek's story about a happy Four Seasons employee who also worked a second job at another hotel — and Sinek never asked why he needed two jobs.

Individualism vs. solidarity

The dominant message in coaching and career advice is about individual optimization — how you can get ahead. Keith pushes back: if you're standing out to get ahead, you're getting ahead over someone else in your same position. How do we think about showing up in solidarity with coworkers rather than competing for scarce resources?

The rise and fall of DEI

Corporate social justice movements — from BLM to Me Too to DEI — operated on the margins. DEI was often less about decreasing inequality and more about making sure inequality was evenly distributed. When it got tied to profitability ("diverse teams are more profitable"), it became easy to cut once it didn't deliver on that promise.

Freedom vs. choice, solidarity vs. individualism

Keith draws on the French Revolution's ideals — equality, liberty, fraternity — and argues that freedom has been replaced by consumer choice, solidarity by individualism, and equality by an even distribution of inequality.

Democracy in the workplace

If we believe in democracy, why don't we bring it to work? You don't choose your manager, you often don't choose what you work on, and you certainly don't vote on layoffs. Keith advocates for employee representation on boards, more democratic structures, and greater worker power — especially as AI reshapes the landscape.

AI and the future of labor

The same de-skilling forces that have shaped blue-collar work since the Industrial Revolution are now coming for white-collar knowledge workers. This could create new precarity — or new opportunities for solidarity and collective action.

The archeology of the future

Keith shares Fredric Jameson's idea that instead of forecasting from the past, we should look for "the archeology of the future" — finding undeveloped seeds in the present moment that could grow into something radically different.

Resources

Books

1. Start With Why by Simon Sinek
2. Peak by Chip Conley
3. In Search of Excellence by Tom Peters
4. The Dawn of Everything by David Graeber and David Wengrow
5. The Engineers and the Price System by Thorstein Veblen (better known for The Theory of the Leisure Class)

Other Thinkers & Authors Referenced

1. Jim Collins — Business author (referenced alongside Peters for cherry-picked research)
2. Fredric Jameson — Marxist literary critic; "easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism"; "archeology of the future"
3. Erik Olin Wright — Sociologist; conflicting class positions
4. Peter Bregman — Author and leadership coach (mutual friend of Howie and Keith)
5. Michael Moore — Filmmaker (on capitalism funding its own critique)
6. Bill Mollison — Co-founder of permaculture ("all the world's problems can be solved in a garden")
7. Bessel van der Kolk, Peter Levine, Stephen Porges — Referenced in the discussion of Polyvagal Theory and whose voices dominate the conversation

Connect with Keith

1. LinkedIn: Keith J. Corbin
2. Website: evolutioncoach.org

[00:00:00] So I'm a leadership coach and executive coach, and I fancy myself a thought leader in the business world, and I write about things like psychological safety at work and great leadership and great teams and great organizations in the hope that great organizations will create positive good in the world.

Sometimes it happens, but often really well run companies like Google and Meta and Microsoft end up. Doing evil.

And so I got to wondering, is there something about the advice we give and the guidance and the coaching that we provide to people that's somehow missing something important?

So to answer that question, I turn to my friend Keith J Corbin, who's also an executive coach, and we talk about the type of management advice and leadership lessons you're likely to get from people in our class of. Executive influencers and what's wrong with it and what's missing, and I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I do.

Without further ado.

Dr Howie Jacobson: [00:01:00] Keith Corbin, welcome to the Plant Yourself Podcast.

Keith Corbin: Uh, thanks for having me, Howie. I'm really excited to be here and to get a chance to talk with you.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Likewise, likewise. Let's start by introduce yourself. Set the scene.

Keith Corbin: Sure. Um, I am a leadership coach focusing on really directors to VP and tech roles, and that's where I spent most of my career of 25 year career as an engineer, product leader and business development leader at multiple high growth startups as well as some larger public companies. And so now I'm helping leaders in those types of roles navigate the complexity and the contradictions that come along with trying to lead a team while also trying to, uh, manage your, your superiors and making it all work.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Cool. So I have to say, if I were the audience listening to this podcast right now, I would think this is gonna be boring. And, and I promise you it's [00:02:00] not. And one of the reasons I know it's not is that you are my favorite commenter and poster on LinkedIn in bar none because of, of your sort of right angle take to so much of like the, the heartfelt wisdom that people like us tend to put out into the world about kindness, about empowerment, about, uh, inclusiveness, all of the, the themes that the sort of leadership coaches.

Uh, put on carousels and put into the world and talk about, um, you, you, like, you know, dance in with, with like, like a, um, a swordsman and sort of pop these bubbles and make me realize, whoa, there's ways in which I have been ignorant. There's ways in which I have been in a well-meaning way, [00:03:00] um, supporting structures that are unfair and unjust.

And that's kind of what I would love to, uh, to explore with you today. So first, first I kind of want to ask you like, when did you become aware that, um, the standard wisdom around leadership and inclusion and lovey wyness and, you know, so lowercase kumbaya was covering up something a little bit, uh, rotten.

Keith Corbin: Yeah. You know, I, I think I started like most people in this space and most people in leadership, and I read a lot of leadership books. It really bought into all of that, right? I, I loved the idea that, hey, I can just treat my people well and be kind, and everything will work out wonderfully. And I worked for a CEO at one point, who was a huge Simon Sinek fan.

Absolutely loved him, quoted him all the time. And then as that company was getting near, [00:04:00] IPO still managed to do a massive layoff where it removed large chunks of the team. And there was this question in my mind of, okay, how can you on the one hand believe all of this, your job as a leader is to take care of people and do this.

And then at the end of the day, you are really responding to, you know, IPO pricing and other things outside of that. And that led me down a path and a journey to understanding more about complexity and more about systems and more about. Um, the structures that are at play. And, you know, I always like to go back and say, it's not that I think that CEO was a, a bad person or a hypocrite, it was more the reality of they were in a position where they had some strong beliefs about what they'd like to do, and then those ended up in conflict with external pressures that were critical for their role.

And they had to find a way to navigate that. And that made me realize that we're not [00:05:00] just necessarily these free agents that get to decide that we're going to be kind and make everything better. We operate within the systems that we have to respond to and react with. And it, it makes some of those messages more complex.

It isn't just about, um, kindness and compassion. I think those things are extremely important and they tend to miss some of the core of what's really going on and why there's those challenge. This?

Dr Howie Jacobson: Hmm. And for folks who don't know, uh, Simon Sinek, you know, got famous maybe 10, 15 years ago for a, a viral Ted talk about, it's called, start With Why, and which he then turned, turned into a book and a very, very successful speaking and influencer career. And the basic idea was that if you, I guess, you know, start with why, with, with the goal, the purpose, the vision, the mission, then that attracts people more than just saying, Hey, we've got this product for [00:06:00] you.

And, and you know, one, one of the things I find difficult is like the baby bath water thing. Like, there's definitely huge value in what a lot of what Simon Sinek is saying. Um, and yet there it's, it's problematic. And I, and I find it, you know, I find it difficult to kind of hold the good once I discover the, you know, the, the, the underbelly.

Um, like, can maybe talk about like why, what about Simon Sinek in particular, kind of, you know, what in his message did you feel got, um, thrown under the bus during this IPO?

Keith Corbin: Well, I think, um, it, you know, if we go back to start with y right? And it's interesting to, to think about what start with Y came into existence late 2009, which was right as the world was recovering from the 2008 crash and bubble. And we were entering what ended up being [00:07:00] to 15 plus years of boom times where, uh, hiring was rampant and all of these things were possible.

And so it entered at a time where caring about employees became more structurally important for organizations because hiring was harder, retention was important, and therefore this message landed. And I do think the message is valuable, I would say. What it misses is often people work for two reasons.

One is that they care about, they want to care about what they do, they wanna find meaning in their work. And I think that's really important and that's something that he touched on. What he didn't often touch on was, the other reason people work is we have to, to make a living, right? There's, most of us are required, to some extent, to work a good percentage of our waking hours in order to have the material needs we need for survival. And oftentimes the reason we find things we look [00:08:00] for meaning in our work, is because we notice we're gonna spend a good deal of our time doing it, and we have to, and therefore it best be meaningful or we best create meaning around it because it'll help us, um, make sense of the fact that we do have to devote our lives to this in this way.

And so I think that meaning part is really valuable and it's important to talk about. And. Unfortunately, it's led to this kind of notion. Often, you know, leaders will say, we want missionaries and not mercenaries. This idea that they want people who are gonna be there because they believe in the cause and not because they want to get paid.

And the reality is we're all both, we both want to believe in what we're doing and we do need to get paid. And what that does though is when people are all about the cause, it can cause them, especially when people aren't talking about it, to neglect the material side of what they're getting from it, which can then allow the [00:09:00] system to actually exploit workers more.

We want you to work harder, we want you to do more. And when you care about something, there ends up being this greater external, call it super egoic pressure to perform to do more because you find it meaningful and that can work against your own interests of. What do you need to do to actually make a living and make sure that you're supporting your family in those aspects? And I think this partly gets at, I, I guess maybe the one other thing I would add in there is, you know, when we go to, starts with why that book was interesting because it went from everything to Steve Jobs who, uh, notoriously was not necessarily a people first leader in a lot of the ways he treated, treated individuals, uh, to Martin Luther King.

And it assumes that leadership is the same across that gamut. And people who were in the civil rights movement, [00:10:00] yes, it was actually about their survival in a lot of ways, but not in the same material hierarchical way that a business is. They chose to be part of it. They could leave it at any point and not have to join some other movement in order to make a living.

And so we often, what he often did, and this happens a lot in leadership leader literature, is we lump all of these forms of leadership that happen in the world, whether it's nonprofits or politics or military or business, and say they're all the same and leading is all the same. And we don't notice that in business. It's not a democratic institution. You don't choose your manager. You don't choose who you work for. You don't even often choose what you get to work on. You may get some freedom in how you do what you do, but a lot of your choice comes at joining the organization. And that itself is a forced choice. And so [00:11:00] when Simon brings all of these things together and makes it one and says it's all about meaning, he's missing that nuance.

And in that nuance is where these structural issues come up. Right? And to tie this back to the CEO. I think he, you know, he maybe did wanna see himself as that leader that people chose to follow and were there. But he had pressures from investors to make sure that how the company performed, met their expectations and they got their return on investment.

And his job was dependent on that. He wasn't a free agent who could do whatever he wanted. If he couldn't get an IPO price, they wanted, he'd be looking for work. So there's this imbalance that happens where because there was a material reality he was responding to, he couldn't fully embody what Simon Sinek put out there, because that assumes that you have the [00:12:00] choice always to do what you want.

Dr Howie Jacobson: So I remember the first time I started thinking about this, um, and it wore off 'cause I, I, I, you know, drank the Kool-Aid again, but it was many, many years ago, maybe 15 or even 20. Um, I read a book by Chip Conley, who was a big guy in, in, in hospitality, in, in, uh, in hotel management. And yeah, I think the book was Peak or Peak something or other.

I'll include it in the show notes. And he talked about how the, you know, they, they would, um, in all these incredible hotels, you know, top of the line places they would. Speak of the customers as guests, and it was so important to treat them as guests. And, and, and at some point I'm reading it and going, you know, I've been a guest and no one's ever like made me pay when I'm a guest, like my friend, I, when I stay at a friend's house, like they, they're not, they don't gimme the bill at the end.

And there, it just felt like there was something, like, something in the language. It was lovely. Like the book was a beautiful sentiment. And like if, if I, [00:13:00] if every place was like this, the world would be a better place. And yet there was this, um, this falsehood that was at, at the bottom of it.

Keith Corbin: Uh, that's, it is true. And I think there's a great Simon Sinek example about hospitality. He talks about, um, I forget which book it was in, but he talks about staying at the Four Seasons and there was a concierge or someone and they were so lovely and so great to work with. And, you know, he asked them why.

And, and of course it was about the purpose that was in Bud in, in their job and how they talked about it and all of these things. And then he made a comment, I work at another hotel across town and it's totally different and I'm miserable there. And Simon Sinek points to this is why, starts with Why is so great and see how happy he is.

And he never asked the question, if the Four Seasons is such a great place to work, why does he have two jobs? Right. And it's just sort of this fundamental thing [00:14:00] of you've, you're happier. It's not providing for you. You still need to work a second job to get the hours you need to be taken care of. And I think that kind of points to the underlying contradiction.

Same as you're seeing, it's like it's great to call them a guest, but they're paying, they're paying customers. There's, there's a, the language doesn't necessarily fix the structural reality.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Can you talk about, um, I don't have off the top of my head, you know, my favorite genre of yours is the comment on somebody else's post. Like, someone like me would make a post about, you know, let's say for employees about how to be a great employee and how to go the extra mile or for managers to, you know, this and that.

And then you have a comment that both supports the idea behind it and says, yeah, but you also have to think about this. Are there any kind of themes or topics that really stand out for you where you read one of these inspirational leadership management [00:15:00] employee posts and you're like, yeah, they're missing something.

Keith Corbin: Yeah, I think one thing that often stands out is they're always speaking, and we tend to do this in coaching, right? We're speaking to an individual, they're speaking to, okay. You know, as an employee, do these things and it'll help you stand out and not necessarily questioning, okay, if you're standing out to get ahead, you're getting ahead over whom, over somebody else in your exact same position.

And this is one of the things that often happens in organizations is there is a power dynamic. Those who are in, in, uh, leadership have greater power than those who are working beneath them. And rather than people tending to fight against that power dynamic and try to achieve more that way, they end up being positioned to fight against each other for scarce resources as opposed to thinking about.

How do we all end up in a situation maybe where there's greater equality or greater balance. [00:16:00] Instead, we're competing with the very people who are in the same situation we are, rather than those who maybe have the power or have the greater opportunity. And so I think that's one of the things I often like to kind of push on or poke on of seeing how do we think more broadly about these ideas so that we think more about how we show up in solidarity with the people we work with, rather than just thinking in an individualistic way about how we get ahead and how we position ourselves best.

But how do we make the situation better? How do we change the context we're all operating in, in a way that supports people more?

Dr Howie Jacobson: Hmm. So something about that message is kind of a downer. You know, like, like I, you know, like you're telling us like the world, the world we wanna believe in, like the world of business. I remember, I don't remember which, like maybe like Zig Ziglar or one of these like Knighting Conant guys. Like the way [00:17:00] you get rich is if you get, you know, help other people get what they want.

Enough people get what they want, then you get what you want. And like at first blush, I'm like, yeah, that's how it works. And yeah, and, and it could, but you know, very often the people like, who are the richest, like, are making everybody else miserable. There's some, there's something about saying that actually what we're doing is we're playing a game of musical chairs here and we're, we're flowering it up.

It's kind of depressing.

Keith Corbin: It, it can be. And I think that's why, um, we see so many more of the messages about you can do this, you can achieve, because there's, there's a, an ideology of achievement, right? When we think about ourselves and just making ourselves whole or, or. Self-improvement. It gives us a degree of autonomy that makes us feel better to a point.

And I think the, [00:18:00] the problem is the bottom sometimes falls out of that we feel better, and then we realize that maybe the fundamental thing that we need to change isn't changeable or we can't get there. And I think some of the hope comes from recognizing that it's almost the hope of hopelessness, right?

It's the recognition that if, if this is the way things are, then there is freedom within that to try something new to try and break out because it isn't as, um, you know, when, when all hope is lost, when, when, I'm trying to think of the phrase when. When hope is lost, it doesn't mean that we are, it means that we can start from there.

And I think sometimes it's really about, I don't see it as as depressing as so much as trying to see other perspectives or other ways that perhaps we can enact change that becomes more [00:19:00] meaningful and more beneficial for more people. Um, and some of that starts from trying to see the holes in the way things work, um, and, and not letting go of, of the ways in which things are broken.

Because by holding onto them, we can do something about them.

Dr Howie Jacobson: hmm. Yeah. To, to, to, um, to offer a, a timely and, and, you know, unsettling, um, analogy. Um, I think that the latest release of the latest tranche of Epstein files has kind of convinced me that, oh, like the entire world is being run by this cabal of in cahoots, if not pedophiles, then enablers and. And like there was something, you know, like at first it hit me really hard and then there was this feeling of like, oh, if, like, if that's how it is, then all the, all the time I spent fighting against it on the margins or trying to [00:20:00] improve things like that has been a waste of time.

You know, like I, I have a friend who, um, in Tri Trigger warning was abused terribly in his childhood in all sorts of ways, by his family, by the house of worship, by the community things. Uh, frankly, I did not entirely believe when he was telling me like, how could people be like this? And I've spoken to him recently and he is like, I'm so happy now.

Like, the people believe me, like, like my experience has been normalized and I'm thinking like, you know, we're the people we, we talk to in LinkedIn and in our sales conversations tend to be of a very high class, upper class, even within organizations. Um, and. And it's easy for us to ignore the people who have always been suffering in, in, in these structures.

Keith Corbin: Yeah, I think there's this notion of disavow, right? Where we know on [00:21:00] some level we know it's true and we get that almost gives us the freedom to ignore it, right? Is sort of how this works. I like great example, um, is climate change, right? Most of us know that it's true, right? If we continue doing the things that we're doing, um. The climate situation is only going to worsen. And because we know it, we feel good about ourselves and we say, great, I recycle. It's like, okay, well you're, that's not actually gonna change. That's not the change that we need for this to really change. Right? It's, yes, it's good, it's valuable, but you're working on the margins as you said, and, but it allows us to feel superior to, 'cause we can then point at those people who won't even admit it's true and say, well we believe it's true and we're doing something and they don't even believe it.

So we are the good ones here. Rather than recognizing we're still not really changing anything in a dramatic way that's gonna solve this problem. Right. It's gonna actually take a much more [00:22:00] concerted effort. And so there are points where you need to poke holes in that feeling of by doing things on the edges, we're making it better so that we can realize, okay. What has to happen can't be on the margins. It has to be a little bit more fundamental and structural. And now we can think about what that takes. Um, but I think Disavows a very comfortable position to fall into because it's easier to say, like, you know, those things are true. And, you know, we're doing, you know, I, I treat people, you know, I treat people well, so it's fine.

It's like, well, okay, but if there's massive, you know, rings supporting pedophilia for the elite, like, you're not really solving that by treating people nicely, right? So, uh, I I think that's the element of how do you break through that recognition that, um, some of the things that need to change tend to be more fundamental and to be able to confront them directly [00:23:00] rather than, than thinking that by operating them on the margins, we're making the difference that we wanna see.

Dr Howie Jacobson: I mean, that reminds me of over the last, say, five or seven years, the rise and fall of social justice movements within corporations from Black Lives Matter to me too, to DEI, like at this point in time, they've all been jettison and, you know, and the people who made their living doing them were, you know, like I, you know, they're told like, don't talk about diversity, talk about like strength together.

Like Right. We like those things for their own sake are no longer valid, which means they never were important and.

Keith Corbin: and I think they often operated on the margins. You know, I think oftentimes, unfortunately, the DEI movement was less about, um, decreasing inequality and more about making sure that inequality was evenly distributed, right? [00:24:00] And the notion of if we only have the right percentage of people, of the right races in the right positions.

Everything would be better rather than what if everybody had a, you know, the same opportunities in a working wage and all of these benefits, which then naturally helps everyone. Um, and there's been some critiques on it of, you know, the people that are often helped by those move movements are those that are, you know, in the middle class already and it's not really evenly distributed.

And so I think that's what it comes down to is how do we think more, think bigger scale about some of these movements so that we don't settle for a DEI movement that it did some good things. I think there were opportunities that were created from it. I think it was positive and it ended up being on the margins and it ended up often being tied to, you know, if we're more diverse, we're gonna be more profitable. [00:25:00] And the moment you either say, Hey, we're being profitable and we're not diverse. We don't need it anymore, or we didn't hit the profitability goal based on diversity, now we can cut it rather than basing it on a fundamental belief that no, there needs to be a greater equality in how we operate and how we show up.

And that is the end into itself. And now we can operate differently with it. And so I think I, I was very disappointed to see all of the cutbacks on DEI. I think it does create an opportunity where when we build it back, how do we build it back differently and in a way that can be even more impactful than the first go was.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah. And this, you know, this reminds me of sort of like, you know, protest movements and change movements going back forever. Like, you know, are you the revolutionary or are you the evolutionary? Do you work within the system? You know, are you then greenwashing the [00:26:00] system? Um, you know, like for, you know, first wave feminism felt to me as I grew, like, oh, so women can now be as bad as men as opposed to can, can more caring, nurturing values inform our world.

Um, and I, you know, I still don't know the answer to any of those questions as to, you know, how progress really gets made.

Keith Corbin: And I think it's an important point though, right? It's the, the, um, having more women in leadership positions is supposed to be a change of that great. Like more caring, more empathy, the, the, the things that, um, traditionally women have been better at. And instead it's had women shift to try to behave the same way as, as men in those positions and didn't change some of the underlying things.

And I think, um. You know, I, I think the questions really come to [00:27:00] what do we want to see and how do we help to, to get there. And I think this is, you know, we could talk a little bit about AI and some of the changes coming. I think some of those things may help shift a view towards, you know, how we look at job precarity and how we build systems that can support people.

Um, because I think it is more about, you know, it's going back to the French Revolution, right? The, uh, equality, liberty and, and fraternity as sort of key fundamental beliefs. And I think over time all of those have slipped away where freedom has been exchanged for choice. Um, and solidarity has been replaced by individualism.

And, and I think equality has disappeared. Uh. Generally speaking, or it's been replaced by, by an even distribution of inequality. Right? And so I think there is a [00:28:00] way of how do we find our way back to some of those values around, um, what it means to have dignity for people and dignity at work, and to, um, really have freedoms and, and uh, connections and a collective view rather than really just individuals trying to get ahead.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah. Um, got any other, um, favorite sacred cows as well as this, you know, the fight over scarce resources we get, see, get a few more of these before, before we start. Um, like the upward trajectory of, of, uh, of positive opportunities.

Keith Corbin: Yeah, I mean, maybe one we could talk a little bit about is just ideology in general, right? And how we have been, be locked into this viewpoint of, um, individual improvement, right? Where, and this is something that's [00:29:00] interesting as a coach, right? Because I'm in the business of helping people improve.

And you know, oftentimes we don't question the context, right? What does improvement mean? organization is different. Every place in life is different. There are different way, you know, what does it mean to be the best leader? Well, that's very contextual for the role in the company and the people that you're with.

And we tend to think of that there's some like optimal way for humans to be in the world and push towards that optimization. And this gets into this push for achievement and. A lot of that then locks us into individuals and how we see ourselves as growing rather than seeing the way that we're all connected, the way that we form as individuals is created by those around us and those that we're influenced by, you know, oftentimes I'll see people say, you [00:30:00] know, like the way to be successful is, don't care what anyone thinks.

And it's like, okay, so what do you care about? And it's like, where did that caring come from? Where did that belief come from? It probably came from something somebody thought, we can't escape how we're interrelated with others. We can't escape the ways in which what we desire is influenced by the desires of others.

And so the question becomes how do we respond to it? And how do we live in relation to others rather than thinking that we're, you know, individuals optimizing ourselves. Devoid of the system. And I think that's part of what I, I try to work on with clients is thinking about themselves in connection and in relation rather than thinking of themselves as atomic individuals that are, that are just trying to, uh, you know, optimize

Dr Howie Jacobson: Hmm. So what are some of the red flag messages or posts? That carry the individualistic message. 'cause again, one of the things I really [00:31:00] appreciate about you is that I agree with everything you say, but not until you say it and like, oh, I didn't see that. Like, it's, it's a, it's, for me, it's really a form of, you know, bubble bursting and me then feeling more in integrity and now understanding why.

Keith Corbin: Yeah. I think, um, I think some of it comes when I see anything that's, that's posing itself as universal advice. Right. Um. As if there is some sort of universal answer. And I think, you know, one thing, um, one idea that, that, that really struck me when I learned it as important is the universal. This idea that, you know, all workers are all leaders should do a certain thing, is never really about something that's best for everyone.

It's [00:32:00] usually one particular case that has been turned into the universal, right? It's been something that's been stretched to that. And so when I see things that are trying to pose as, you know, everyone should do x, I'm always trying to drill in who is the particular that's being taken to be universal.

Because it's usually representing some power structure, somebody who already has. Authority or somebody who already has, um, a privileged position that is now being put in a position to represent the whole and everybody should do what they do without recognizing that that privilege that they have is based on power structures and biases and other things that are built into the system.

And so that universal advice won't work across the board for everyone. You know, someone may say, you know, this is how you best stand up to your boss [00:33:00] and great, that may work. If you are in a position where it's easy to find your next job if they don't like how you posed it. Um, if you have a lot of social capital within your company so that other people are gonna support you and have your back, if you have an upbringing where speaking truth to power was something that you always felt comfortable with, there's a lot of things that go into that belief.

And often it paints the picture of a fairly, you know, upper middle class white male who then can go and do these things without recognizing that not everybody's lived experience has been the same. And they may not be in a position where they can do the same thing in the same way and have it be received the same way as this other person.

And so that's one thing I always look for is when I see things that are universal, I try to pick out who's the particular person they're really addressing. And what is that saying about how they're seeing power in structures that are revolving around

Dr Howie Jacobson: Hmm. And that's one of the things that I first picked up on as a critique of Simon [00:34:00] Sinek, is that he's chosen a bunch of examples that fit his thesis really well. Um, you know, like before I was, uh, into the work I'm doing now, I was doing a lot of health research and, and helping write books about, you know, nutrition and science and health and.

What I finally realized, I think Peter Bregman, our mutual friend, kind of told me like, he doesn't trust business books that, that, that have research in them by and large, because it's always like, okay, let's pick these 20 companies. Like, you know, like the Tom Peters in Search of Excellence or, uh, Jim Collins.

You just pick a bunch of companies that already prove your thesis. It's like in health research, you, you know, that's called a bad study, right? You wanna do something, uh, prospective where you get like a thousand people in condition A and a thousand people in condition B, and you don't know what the outcome is going to be in advance.

And then you see how the different, uh, treatment options or, or, uh, [00:35:00] you know, variables lead to, to different outcomes. And so, you know, like as you're saying, like as if, if you have a point of view from, as, as someone who's is part of a power structure, there are plenty of examples that you can find to prove whatever you're trying to prove.

Keith Corbin: Right. Yeah. You can find examples that make it work. And I think calling it research, I think is always a little bit questionable. I mean, it's, it's looking for examples that find it, but your point is, it's important, right? Scientific research usually is about coming up with a hypothesis, something you believe, and then figuring out how to disprove it. And if you can't disprove it, then you have some confidence that it might be true. oftentimes in management literature, it's the exact opposite. I've come up with a hypothesis and now I'm gonna seek out all the examples I can that prove it. And anything that doesn't will be ignored or dismissed or, or pushed to the side.

And [00:36:00] that is a way really of promoting. An ideology rather than of trying to understand what is true. And, um, I think oftentimes, you know, when we see that most of the context is stripped out, you know, most of the context when they find those examples is not what made this successful in this context.

Trying to find what made that context particular such that my hypothesis was true, but really trying to strip out any of that so that it does become a universal answer. That this is just the way it works and everything can be solved in this way. And I, I think that is, uh, dangerous because it, it just leads to people falling into, um, these beliefs that there is this one way and that this is best rather than recognizing and, and seeking out alternatives and trying to disprove, um, theories to, to come to [00:37:00] better ideas.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah, it reminds me of my first couple of months getting my Master's of public health and you know, I went into public health because I really wanted to. Help people. And it was obvious to me what was gonna help people. And then I kept coming across these studies that, that showed that, like, dare, the Drug Education Program was leading to more people being on Dr.

More kids on drugs, scared straight, was actually backfiring. That, that, uh, people who were exposed to, scared straight, ended up going to jail at higher rates. Um, you know, the, the, that all so many of these programs, um, that people passionately believed in when someone did actually put them to the test, um, proved harmful.

And, and it didn't change anything in terms of allocation. You know, whether it was, you know, abstinence, sex education, like the people who believed in it, believed in it, regardless [00:38:00] of whether it worked or not.

Keith Corbin: I'm curious what that shifted for you. Like when you started noticing that and you saw like, okay, these studies are not showing what they think. What did that change in your approach as you were moving forward?

Dr Howie Jacobson: Um, I mean, it, it made me angry at first. Like, I didn't, I didn't wanna hear this, like, you know, like I'm just a boy whose intentions are good. Like, obviously, like I was, you know, at that point I was trying to figure out my, uh, uh, master's thesis, and I was gonna work with a summer camp for at risk inner city youth.

And I wanted to do this whole thing on AIDS education. And I was, you know, upper middle class white male coming in with all my, my attitudes and beliefs and, and you know, frankly, I was, I was insulted that people were pushing back on it. I said, don't you know how important this is? And when I started like this, this just started softening me.

I mean, it's a lesson that I, I [00:39:00] am, I am frankly embarrassed how many times I need to keep learning in my life that. I'm not always right and that there's other there and that there's huge swaths of perspective that I have not even considered. You know, just, just the last couple of weeks, there's a, there was a very influential article in, in a certain sort of neurological psychological space, debunking in quotes, the polyvagal theory.

And I've been seeing post, after post, after post about this, and it's almost all coming from women, coming from neurodivergent, people coming from people outside of Western cultures, uh, coming from people of color. And I'm like, huh? All the people that I have been studying and quoting have been upper middle class white men who's for whom English is their first language.

They're like, like, this is two weeks ago. And they're like, why? You know, how, how many times do it have to happen before I start asking the question, who's voice am I [00:40:00] not listening to here? And what am I missing?

Keith Corbin: Yeah. And there it's easy to fall into that trap, right? And I think. I think it's important to recognize too, that it's not necessarily this individual failing that I, you know, that most of the voices I listened to were, were Western white men. Because when you look out, that's what's being presented to you.

That's what's most available in, you know, part of what we, this is where kind of the system's thinking comes in, right? It's making it easier to do those things. It becomes increasingly more difficult to seek out those other voices, and that systemic awareness allows you then to start recognizing that the system is making it hard.

And, okay, I'm going to go and seek them out because I can do some of that, but I also need to figure out how to make these more available to more people. Because if it's [00:41:00] reliant on every single human. Like combing through 300 papers to try to find one that wasn't written by, you know, a white man, then nobody's gonna get there because nobody's gonna take the time to do it.

And so it's not just about individuals being willing to make that effort, but how do we change it such that it isn't so much effort for those sources to be found? How do we shift those systems and how do we make those things more visible? And I think that's, you know, I think that's part of it. You can go out and, you know, the advantage of the internet, right?

You can find anything, you can find those writers if you have the time and energy, but you have to know enough to do it. And they're not gonna be the ones that show up first because they're not the, they're not the ones that are feeding into the common way that the system is built. And I think that's part of it, is to see too, where it's not. It is not that individuals can't do anything to do it differently, but it's not an [00:42:00] individual failing that we don't. It's recognizing that the system has made it harder to do those things.

Dr Howie Jacobson: You just made me realize that there is something so deliciously ironic about how I have been coming across them. It's because my algorithms are, which are designed to outrage and inflame me, have ironically brought me to these people. Like, you know, you spend enough time with Bessel VanDerKolk and Peter Levine and Stephen Porges, and then eventually you start getting women and queer folks and people of color just, you know, and I could feel myself getting more and more radicalized by these people because of the capitalist impulse to keep me scrolling.

'cause I, you know, I'd consumed as much Peter Levine as I could consume in one lifetime. So now they gotta gimme something else.

Keith Corbin: Yeah, and I, I mean, I think. That is always one of the questions, right? How do we use the, the system as it exists to fuel the changes [00:43:00] we want it to fuel, right? Um, I don't know that doom scrolling will eventually get you there. I don't know if it's the best way. Um, but, but finding those opportunities that are hidden within, right.

And, um, that's one of sort of the resiliency of, of, uh, capitalism and, and what's made it so successful and provided such growth that it's provided is, is it's found ways to, um, take the critiques of it and fold it into the system itself. Right? I mean, if you see my bookshelf behind me stacked with all of these books, it's like, I, how many of those books are about, you know, not consuming and yet there's a stack of them on, on the back shelf, right?

It's like the, the very system itself encourages. Encourages the things that should undo it, but because they're built on the same system, they only proliferate it. They only keep it [00:44:00] going. Um, and so yes, you'll eventually get there because there's no end to the internet. And eventually they're, they're never gonna stop wanting to show you something.

Twitter is never gonna say, um, that's it for today, Howie. We have no more content for you. They'll find something that's gonna keep you going. Um, and maybe there is something in that of, of the possibility that it opens.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah, it reminds me of, I think Mi Michael Moore was talking about why they make, let him make, um, movies that are so antithetical to capitalism. He says, 'cause I make people money,

Keith Corbin: Yeah.

Dr Howie Jacobson: you

Keith Corbin: Right. I think that's the, the beauty perhaps, or the, the, uh, amazing thing about the system is it allows for critique to it, it just fashions it into commodities that can then be bought and sold and continue to do what it does.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Yeah. Well, yeah. I kept maybe 10 or so years ago, I was convinced that like the answer to, to our societal problems with psychedelics, like I thought we [00:45:00] should start by putting psychedelics into the water supply in Congress and like people were gonna have these mind blowing experiences of oneness. And then all you know, and as, as psychedelics have become almost mainstream, um, I'm now convinced that they get converted to capitalism much more than capitalism gets converted to, uh, to, to unity and oneness.

Keith Corbin: Yeah. It, it, the, the system will absorb, right. I think and, uh. I think you do see that trend though too. Even, even in something like psychedelics or, or, um, where what will tend to proliferate will be less the here's how to grow mushrooms because there's not as much profit in it, as opposed to here is the carefully dosed, uh, chemically made version that is much easier to commercialize and sell and, and consume right there.

There's [00:46:00] always, that is the push that will exist within it is how do we make this, um, a profit engine and, um, you know, is there profit in oneness? I think, uh, they'll seek it out. They'll try to find it. Uh, the system is designed to make it work right to, to extract from it when it can.

Dr Howie Jacobson: S so you, you, you work with people who are in the system and who are, you know, choosing in quotes to stay in the system. Like, you know, I have many days where I'm like, I just wanna find a plot of land and grow everything myself and like, opt out of the entire, you know, structure and just live off the land with a com, with a commune.

I, I haven't done it. I'm not doing it. I'm, uh, I'm in front of all my equipment, posting content for, you know, YouTube and LinkedIn and, and, and, uh, my market. Um, when you work with people who are in the system by some degree of [00:47:00] choice and some degree of necessity, how, what, how does what you do help them and, and possibly a second follow up, is how does it help them like bring about change if it does?

Keith Corbin: Yeah, I think part of how it helps is how they relate to the system. You know, I think there's. Um, I, I'll give an example. You know, recently there was someone talking about, um, you know, layoffs were coming and they were fearful, how do I get safe for layoffs? And, and there was somebody who was sharing all this great advice on the things you can do to, to make yourself more safe from layoffs.

And my response was, you can't, you can't make yourself safe from layoffs. It's not, uh, not without knowing exactly what's gonna happen and why, which you probably don't know, right? Um, and it was interesting. You know, the thing that makes you safest is being liked by the person who's making the [00:48:00] decision. And you don't know who that person is, you know? And it's, it, it becomes this extractive thing. And so I think in a lot of ways it's helping people recognize that some of these things aren't about them. They're things that are gonna be going on around them, and it's not. Even about how they position themselves so much as how do they relate to what's happening?

When you can see the system and you can then make conscious choices about how you're relating to it, when you can make choices and see how the, the shoulds that show up in your day are, who are they serving? You know, when you say, I should really get this done tonight. Okay, who does that help? Does that, does that really help you or does that just make you feel better that you're moving towards something?

And it can help people see the way that they're being shaped by the system that they're [00:49:00] in. And when you see it, you do gain an ability to make more choices about it. And it, for many people, it's not gonna be to leave the system because like you, there's that change would be a hard one right? To, to move to a commune and grow your land.

And it may not be what they really want. And they find meaning in what they do. The question is how to find that in a way that, uh, navigates the, the system as it exists, that they can relate to it differently, that they can be conscious of the choices that they make within it. That when they're leading a team, they can be honest about the fact that you know, what it takes to manage up and what it takes to manage your team and support them maybe directly in contradiction some of the time.

And they need to navigate that contradiction rather than thinking they can do it all perfectly. And so some of it is relieving people of this tension that there's some perfect way of being, that if only [00:50:00] they could achieve it, everything would be magical and happy all the time. And instead realize it can't be, but you can navigate it in a way that you are comfortable with the fact that it can't be perfect rather than. Seeing that gap as something that you continuously need to

Dr Howie Jacobson: Hmm. It reminds me yesterday in my therapy, not to give too much information, I was, uh, I was talking about a position that I'm in that feels very difficult and I framed it as, uh, you know, a tension between two things and I don't know how to navigate it. And what the therapist said to me was, wow, that's a lot of responsibility you're carrying.

And I can't tell you how good that made me feel.

Keith Corbin: Yeah.

Dr Howie Jacobson: no solution. It was simply an acknowledgement. And I think that's what I'm hearing you say to some extent out.

Keith Corbin: and that responsibility oftentimes is outside of you are not creating it, it's being [00:51:00] created for you by the things outside of it. And so when you can recognize that you're not the one who's put it on your back, but it's there. And all you can do is then do the best you can with it and recognize that like a weight has been put on you, um, can help in recognizing that it's what your role in it is.

It's not that you created the responsibility and have to deal with all of it. It's that, nope, this is the position I'm in and this is the reality of it. And it's a lot. And sometimes just knowing that helps because you can then give yourself a little grace of recognizing that, you know, there isn't a perfect way to do this.

So I don't need to be judging myself against some perfect standard. I can instead look at this in the reality that, um, it's hard and the best [00:52:00] I can do the best I can within that.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Hmm. So in, in the minutes we have left, um, I would love to fantasize about what organizations could look like. Um, you know, like us leadership coaches, we tend not to want to be leaders. Like, it's, it seems hard and annoying and maybe we don't feel like have the skills even though we can help other people with it.

But like, if you ran a, you know, started a company or you were, you know, elected, CEO or chairman of the board of some large organization, what would you do to like fundamentally make things more, you know, equality, equally distributed inclusion, fairness, like all the good stuff.

Keith Corbin: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I, um, I have a part-time role right now where I'm, I'm, uh, a fractional COO at very, very early stage startup, and it was so fun to join [00:53:00] because. It's very much, you know, that vision of it's, oh, it's a mission and we care about it and, you know, I'm doing it because it, it will help people take, um, more control over their careers and, and building some really useful tools we think for people to, to self-manage and hopefully over time build community. And it's at a stage where it's like, yeah, there's a CEO and there's me, but there's no real like hierarchy or power. It's, Hey, here's the thing I wanna do to help. Okay, cool. You do that and I'll do this and, and you work it out. And, you know, most of the companies I've joined have been earlier stage startups and, or, or not, not that early stage of series C.

So they have a few hundred employees and at that point there's a little bit of that left and then it quickly fades into this hierarchy and power structures and that. And so I think there is something about people getting to do the work. That they enjoy and having control over their work. And to me, it, it does come [00:54:00] down to, you know, bringing democracy into the workplace.

You know, we, we talked beginning at the beginning, you don't really choose your manager. Uh, there's so much advice on, on LinkedIn, you know, pick your don't, don't pick your job, pick your manager. And that's lovely advice except, you know, I was talking to someone the other day who, uh, in two years at a company's had five managers.

They picked their first one, but from there on they were assigned to who they got. You don't really have that freedom. Um, but you could, in a more democratically run organization, you could have choices over who represents you. You could gain some of that power. Um, you know, there's been movements of MP for public companies, employee representation on boards and employees having equal representation on board.

So if you wanna lay off. The company do a massive layoff that also has to be improved by the employees that are on the board. And that creates a different dynamic of [00:55:00] employees having say, you know, I think we, we often think a lot about those who invest capital in companies, and those people who invested their money should have a say.

We don't often think about there are people who are, you know, investing 50% of their waking hours in a company and shouldn't they have as much say about where it goes and what it does as somebody who invested, you know, 5% of their net worth in it. Um, so I think that to me is part of the opportunity of bringing more democracy to the workplace, giving people more power over how companies function.

And how that operates in a way that can shift. Now, I, the thing I always run into is, can that still exist without greater changes outside of the corporate realm? You know, if one company is a democracy, but no other companies are, does that work? Or do you run into contradictions [00:56:00] as people try to move? I think it gets complex, but I do think, you know, I, I'm a firm believer in democracy and I think it, it, I believe in it strongly enough that I think workplaces should incorporate it rather than, um, you know, the more totalitarian state model that most companies have today where it's hierarchical leadership.

And even though it isn't necessarily, at least in the tech space, I'm in a command and control environment. Usually people are given some degree of freedom. It still is. It still is one where you don't really have freedom over your role in the way people think. You have freedom on the margins. You might get to pick which tools you use.

You might get to a say in, you know, how your team operates in certain ways, but you don't have fundamental choices on who you work for, what projects you work on and what you do. And I think, uh, there's an opportunity there to give people greater freedom at work [00:57:00] and greater control so that, uh, work can be more meaningful for people and, um, that they can have a greater say in what is a very large percentage of their, of their waking hours.

Dr Howie Jacobson: when I was a kid, my dad was a labor organizer for the United Auto Workers, and this was in the late, you know, early seventies. And he would tell me, you know, the Walter Ruther and some of the other, you know, the, the stars of the labor movement, the far left radicals were telling the big three in the late sixties.

Let's, we need to build smaller cars like. Like they, you know, the representatives of labor were seeing something. And the, the heads of gm, Ford, um, what's the other one? Uh, back then, uh,

Keith Corbin: Was that, I

Dr Howie Jacobson: I don't remember. They're not so big anymore. [00:58:00] Um, we're saying, no, Americans want just big cars, big trucks. And of course, when the gas crisis hit in 73, you know, the, the Japanese, the, the Toyotas and the, and the Hondas, uh, and the Nissans, I guess Dotsons then kind of took, you know, took over the market and all these employee union workers lost their jobs because they, because of decisions that had not been made by them.

So in terms, you know, like they were risking a lot more, it turns out than the people who were risking two or 5% of their net worth or had stock in, in the company.

Keith Corbin: Yeah. And, and you know, particularly in, in those examples, right, the industry cratered. And so finding a job as an auto worker became very, very hard. It's not like you could just, you know, people often say if you don't like the conditions, go to another job. That's great. When the market is booming in, other companies in your same sector are doing well, that's a lot harder when everybody in your industry is [00:59:00] suffering.

Those jobs just don't exist. And so, um, people having those choices, I think, you know, unionization I do think is a crucial part. I think it played an important role historically. You know, we talked a little bit about DEI earlier, and I think, uh, historically the number one. Force that has led to, you know, better equality of wages between men and women and across races has actually been unions more than anything DEI achieved.

And I think that's an interesting, uh, angle to think about too, of how do some of those movements potentially help. And, um, I think a lot of times in white collar work, there hasn't been the same precarity as in blue collar work, and so there's been more hesitation around unionization. Uh, but that perhaps is something that, uh, the influx of AI could shift where suddenly some of those same forces of automation that have been impacting blue collar [01:00:00] workers since the beginning of the industrial revolution are now coming for white collar workers as well.

And perhaps there's some opportunity in that for, um. Uh, greater solidarity among those workers to shift how they think about things and, and in ways that could produce greater equality and serve some of the goals that, um, that we talked about earlier.

Dr Howie Jacobson: a politics class, in college, I was assigned a book by Thorston Lin, who was a socialist, who's active in the teens and twenties. I think he ran for president on the socialist ticket, and his most famous book was, uh, conspicuous Consumption. But he, this other book that I'd never heard of and almost nobody's ever heard of, it, was called The Engineers on the Price System.

And he was arguing that because, because of the Industrial Revolution, engineers were gonna have all the power. And, and he was hoping they would take that power and imbue it with clash consciousness, class consciousness and change how, how companies work. You know, take out the robber barons who are, who were amassing great [01:01:00] fortunes and really spread this out.

And, and he was so hopeful because engineers were well educated. They were in, they had to be in touch with reality because of the nature of their jobs. And of course what happened was, and continued to happen through the, in, you know, the industrial revolution, the information revolution, it, it people, computer people wanted to be Zuckerberg and Bezos and, and Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, as opposed to identifying as the labor.

And so they never, they never grab their power. And I think it might, you know, at this point it might be too late. You seem to think that, you know, AI might offer, uh, might reshuffle the deck in some way.

Keith Corbin: I think it may, uh, it's yet to be seen, but I, I think yeah, that the hypothesis around engineers, you know, moving up, I think the, the trend we've seen, one is there's, you know, kind of the conflicting class position that engineers ended up in, right? Um, E [01:02:00] Eric Olen Wright has written a lot about, um, conflicting class positions.

And especially in technology, we've seen it play out where, you know, engineers get a good amount of stock, right? And so suddenly you're, you are a little bit of a mix between, um, you're not quite on the same level as the executive team, but you're also not, you know, a worker who's just punching the clock.

You have something vested in the company's success in a different way. And so it has created this conflict and it has created, again, from, from the ideological position. Of everybody competing for themselves. Like, well, how do I get into that senior role? How do I get where I can really make a difference rather than seeing it as a, a greater worker collective?

Um, and it goes to, I think for a long time, you know, the work that was being done by engineers was work that wasn't understood by the people who were leading them. And so therefore they had a lot of [01:03:00] creativity in their work and, uh, they had a lot of control. But what we've seen, you know, has happened in, in every role over time, the way you make something more efficient is you break it down into pieces and then people specialize in those pieces and those pieces get broken down further and it becomes this continuous process of, of, um.

De-skilling, which then moves some of what was the knowledge that people had into machines. Right? And it happened in, in engineering. And I think that's what we're seeing in software development now a little bit with ai, that as the machines can do more of it, the role of the individual becomes one that, um, is the tool of the machines.

You know, I can, I can kick these things off and it, it separates people out into, um, either higher roles where they have greater responsibility and lower roles where they're now [01:04:00] just manning machines and doing that piece. And so I think that process has continued in a way that maybe not everyone expected, where even the engineering work could be broken down in the same ways that even that could be de-skilled to a point where, uh, it created a further separation between those who were, quote the workers and those that were, were doing more.

And I think. does seem to be the trend we're seeing. I don't know. I think, um, AI is a little different in that it can be both used as a tool and it can use you as a tool, um, used as a tool. It can create great power and you can do a lot of things that you maybe couldn't have done otherwise, but it could also, um, de-skill a lot of jobs in the same way.

And so I think it's gonna be very interesting to see how that plays out. Um, particularly as it relates to, you know, right now AI companies are all losing money. At some point they have to be profitable. When that change, what does that change in the industry and [01:05:00] how does that shift how they roll out and what it means for people?

And I think those are things that we'll be kind of watching for. And depending on the direction of that, it could create opportunities for some workers to say, Hey, this might be a time where if we banded together, we could, uh, change the flow or at least. Maintain some rights in the, in the workplace that we're currently losing.

Dr Howie Jacobson: And I, you know, I think the, um, as we wrap up, the thing that gives me the most hope, and one of the reasons I keep reading your stuff, it's not because I'm just like enjoying, you know, taking down, uh, sacred cows, although I definitely do. It's like there's a lot of hope when you nail things the way you do, when you kind of call out what's actually going on, it gives us a certain type of freedom to imagine something else.

'cause there's a way in which I don't think most people could imagine that organizations could be run differently. Like, how could you have democracy? It would be chaos, right? If everybody [01:06:00] voted or right. Like the, you know, David Wengrow who co-wrote, uh, the Dawn of everything with David Graeber talks about the three freedoms, and they're very relevant here.

The number one is the freedom to move, to be able to leave one place and go to another and be received to, you know, to have hospitality elsewhere. The second is the freedom to, um, to disobey. To refuse certain things without, you know, terrible consequences. And the third is the freedom to imagine and create new ways of doing things.

And I think, you know, at its core, I think that's, that's kind of what you're talking about. And, um, I can't remember who first said it, but the first step in breaking out a prison is recognizing that you're in prison. And so I think a lot of what I enjoy about the way you think about things is you're pointing out that things aren't optimal they don't have to stay that way.

Keith Corbin: Yeah. I, I think, uh, I, the, the, um, the, the dawn of [01:07:00] everything was a, was a great book I read and, and really hit home with me too, around those freedoms and, and thinking about that even in our workplace where, uh, generally speaking, all three of those. Are often at risk. The ability to move elsewhere is the one that depends on the market, but the other two tend to be not things that are really there.

You can't often say to your boss, no, I don't wanna do that. Um, and, um, you have some ability to imagine other ways of doing things, but within, within constraints. And I think for me, uh, I've thought a lot about, uh, the concept of utopia and utopia, not as it's often envisioned of like, let's picture this perfect world that we can all get to and, and, you know, everything will be grand.

But thinking of utopia as a way to point out what seems intractable in the current situation. And that is often the value of thinking of these grand solutions. Of like, okay, well what, what would make [01:08:00] this untractable and. From there, you then can start picking and, and seeing different ways of being. And so I think that's one of the values I look to too, because imagining possibilities I think is one of the, you know, defining characteristics of our species.

Um, and it's something that has been, is oftentimes limited. You know, Frederick Jameson is a great quote. It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. And, and even if one is leading to the other, um, we seem content with figuring out how the end's gonna be rather than the alternatives.

And I think that's where the hope comes in, is let's imagine alternatives. Let's see what could be different and what does that tell us about our present moment and help us find in the present moment. He has one other great term that I'll share 'cause I think it's, it's beautiful. We need to stop looking for, uh, forecast from the past.[01:09:00]

And instead find the archeology of the future. Right? And this is the idea. Let's not just see where things are trending based on what's happened. Let's find the seeds that are undeveloped in this moment, and how could they be something radically different going forward? And I think that's also what I try to help people do is like, what are the seeds of something new that's yet to blossom and yet to be uncovered that we can water and see where it goes, rather than just how do we optimize based on what has been historically true?

Dr Howie Jacobson: I love that. And who, whose, whose quote is that again?

Keith Corbin: Uh, Frederick Jameson,

Dr Howie Jacobson: Okay. I'll include the

Keith Corbin: I can send you the quote for the

Dr Howie Jacobson: Excellent, I'll include it in the show notes. Um, before we head out, how can people who are fascinated, intrigued, and inspired to follow you? Get more, be in touch.

Keith Corbin: Uh, yeah. LinkedIn is probably the best place. That's where I'm most active. Um,

Dr Howie Jacobson: name so people can find it easily.

Keith Corbin: Yep. Keith j Corbin, [01:10:00] K-E-I-T-H-J-C-O-R-B-I-N. Uh, there's a much more famous chef named Keith Corbin, so it makes it hard to find me without the j and uh, I also have a website, evolution coach.org, where I have a newsletter currently in hiatus, but, um, you can sign up for that there as well.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Excellent. Keith j Corbin, thank you so much for all of the insights, um, and education you have given me over the years. And thank you for taking the time today.

Keith Corbin: Thank you, Howie. I've always learned so much from you, from all of our interactions over the years, uh, and this was another wonderful conversation, so thank you for, for bringing your stories too.

Dr Howie Jacobson: Thank you for inviting them.

And that's a wrap. You can find the episode with the show notes and everything we talked [email protected] slash six. [01:11:00] Three, two. So movement news. I am back on the beach doing some workouts. Have not done running yet, have not done weights yet. Still recovering from whatever twinged and tweaked at the tournament three weeks ago in Ali Conte.

And we've got another tournament coming up in less than three weeks in Ali. Again, the bar, how barbaric. Tournament. Uh, so hopefully I will be in fine metal for that. I'm gonna start, uh, working on cardio. Uh, so two and a half weeks is, is enough to, to do a, uh, a fairly good showing we're gonna have a larger.

Team, I think at this tournament. So I'll, uh, get more rest in between points and in between games. So that will be nice. Um, garden news, haven't talked about gardening in a while because I haven't had a garden, but I have to say that, um, you know, spring is coming. There are, um, impulses that I have, my wife, our [01:12:00] kids, all to kind of get some piece of land and start growing things on it.

I don't know if it was also. Triggered in part by the war and energy prices and questions about self-sufficiency. But, uh, you know, all those things together as, uh, bill Mollison, one of the founders of Permaculture, used to say, all the world's problems can be solved in a garden. And there might be a little facile, but I think there's something to that, something about grounding ourselves in and of nature rather than standing above it.

That is speaking to me. So if anybody knows any, um, you know, beautiful lands ready for cultivation in, uh, in Spain, that, um, that could use a loving touch, a loving hand. And, uh, we're keeping an eye out. So that's about it for this week. Talk to you next time. As always, be well, my friends.