Transcripts
Hi, welcome to the Close The Loop podcast.
Speaker:I'm your host, Kevin Dieny and we're gonna be talking about what
Speaker:makes a great business leader.
Speaker:Today, I've got Ronn Burner with us again, to discuss all
Speaker:this stuff about leadership.
Speaker:So welcome, Ronn.
Speaker:Thanks, Kevin, happy to be back.
Speaker:So I guess the first thing that jumps out at me here is like,
Speaker:what are we talking about?
Speaker:When we, you say leadership?
Speaker:I think everyone understands what we're talking about when someone says
Speaker:we want a leader, but in terms of the basics here, what are we talking about?
Speaker:I think leadership is you, you don't want your team to be,
Speaker:less than focused, I guess.
Speaker:So when there's a leader, there's somebody to lean on and then they know how to,
Speaker:um, they know that they're going in the right path down the right direction
Speaker:and they're not left, twidling their thumbs or doing circles because there's
Speaker:a directive, there's an objective.
Speaker:There's a goal.
Speaker:A leader should, hopefully is establishing and what the goal is, and it's understood.
Speaker:And then the actions to achieve that goal.
Speaker:And then, the obstacles preventing you from achieving that goal.
Speaker:So then when that is out on the table and an open communicated discussion
Speaker:and conversation, um, that's really how I think of leadership.
Speaker:I mean, there's many, many, myriads and attributes that go along with it.
Speaker:But I think one of the most important things is establishing the goal, the
Speaker:actions that we're gonna get there and, the obstacles that you were gonna face.
Speaker:And in addition to that, that sort of transparency and openness and that
Speaker:full on communication where there's really no decisions in a vacuum, but
Speaker:it's also, everybody is fully aware of.
Speaker:Of all the pieces in place to get to that goal.
Speaker:But I think as important as all of that is putting responsibility on
Speaker:somebody's plate, on each person's plate, because now they feel like
Speaker:they're contributing in a meaningful way.
Speaker:Now they feel like they're part of it and they feel like they matter.
Speaker:And that's really important for leadership is to make your team
Speaker:feel like they're important.
Speaker:Yeah, I really like that.
Speaker:I think, of leadership as someone who's able to organize the resources,
Speaker:which is like people, the assets, let's say the skill sets, the
Speaker:trucks, the business, the patients.
Speaker:Able to organize everything that's just sort of sitting there in a business
Speaker:and put it together in the right way so that it's going to generate revenue
Speaker:or profit, uh, for that business.
Speaker:And I think leadership can exist, along the entire hierarchy.
Speaker:So someone who's not necessarily over or has managing someone definitely
Speaker:need leadership skills, because I think leadership requires managing up and down.
Speaker:Meaning as the, the lowest underlaying employee, you're sort of under the
Speaker:tutelage and leadership of somebody else.
Speaker:But you have to manage them as well as, you know, manage what
Speaker:work your tasks are assigned to do.
Speaker:So I think leadership is something that's valuable for people who are at all stages
Speaker:of a company up and down to, to get right.
Speaker:That's, that's kind of how I'm look, how I think of it.
Speaker:I think that's a great, great perspective and a great point because
Speaker:leadership really is going in both directions and that's showing your
Speaker:team and that's building a rapport with your team when you're willing
Speaker:to essentially go to bat for them.
Speaker:When you're, I always say gripe upwards.
Speaker:Like when I have people on my team, I never gripe down.
Speaker:I never complain.
Speaker:I never go downwards to them.
Speaker:I'm actually in a, in an odd way, more respectful and more engaged with
Speaker:people on my team than I am upwards.
Speaker:When I go upwards, it's almost like, I don't wanna say you're going into
Speaker:it with a fight, but you're going in there trying to, for lack of a better
Speaker:word, you're fighting for the cause or fighting for what you would like
Speaker:to, to happen for your team, whether it be adding additional resources or,
Speaker:or just a strategy, whatever it is.
Speaker:So that ability to, speak to your superiors in a way that should
Speaker:try to achieve the goal and try to understand where they're coming from.
Speaker:But also pitch to them why it's important to you and your team.
Speaker:And then go back to your team, even biting the bullet.
Speaker:Taking accountability is another huge leadership thing, is taking accountability
Speaker:for, if things aren't going as well as your department had hoped in the quarterly
Speaker:reporting and things of that nature.
Speaker:Then the leader taking it on their shoulders saying, you know, that
Speaker:falls on me because I didn't put my team in a position to succeed.
Speaker:Whether that be the case or not.
Speaker:Taking that approach, is respected above your role as well as below your role.
Speaker:What's your experience with that?
Speaker:Yeah, I....
Speaker:Because I know you, I know you are doing that.
Speaker:You have people on your team and you have people you report to, to, so you
Speaker:are a very good candidate to answer that.
Speaker:There's people above, to the side, and below, right?
Speaker:So the people below are like your subordinates or people who are,
Speaker:dividing the work you would have to do alone, if they didn't exist.
Speaker:And then the people to the side are other departments, right.
Speaker:Having to coexist with other departments that have different functions.
Speaker:And then going up yeah, through the leadership.
Speaker:So you, you also did mention something very interesting, which is the
Speaker:characteristics of leadership, right?
Speaker:Like of what makes a great leader.
Speaker:So we're talking about what makes a great business leader.
Speaker:I think you could probably make a laundry list of characteristics, right?
Speaker:Like a honest, kind, nice respectful, accountable,
Speaker:responsible, someone who listens.
Speaker:I think you could list a lot of characteristics.
Speaker:So I think a lot of times I've been in experiences where I've
Speaker:been under experienced leaders.
Speaker:In some of my earliest jobs.
Speaker:I remember people being so much older than me, that they had so much experience
Speaker:when they were leading me that there were things about it that I took for granted.
Speaker:And then later had younger leaders, less experienced leaders, and I
Speaker:could see that there's definitely some differences and some leaders
Speaker:had attributes and characteristics that I liked and other ones had.
Speaker:Uh, other attributes I liked and things that I didn't like.
Speaker:Man, is there like a, a leader out there that encompasses all the
Speaker:great things or is it always like a little bit of give and take?
Speaker:So the question I'd have to throw it back to you would be,
Speaker:do you think leaders are born?
Speaker:Or can, and simultaneously can someone just pick up a book and
Speaker:be, become a great leader, you know, pick up a book on leadership.
Speaker:Right, you know, I don't know the answer to that, but I would say that certainly
Speaker:that your personality, I I'll say this.
Speaker:I do think that anybody can develop and become a good leader.
Speaker:I really do.
Speaker:At the end of the day, a good leader has goals in mind, but they're
Speaker:also, it's, it's the person skills.
Speaker:It's the human skills that make a great leader for me.
Speaker:You can have all the knowledge in the world.
Speaker:If you can't convey that message in a way to get people to go to bat
Speaker:for you and you go to bat for them.
Speaker:That sort of, comradery, not only are they not gonna run, it's gonna breed
Speaker:complacency, which you don't want.
Speaker:And it's gonna build a potentially a toxic work environment.
Speaker:And all of those things are bad so that the human skills, are very, very critical.
Speaker:So I think that people can be born leaders.
Speaker:And I think we've seen that in, you know, the people that are successful
Speaker:are born leaders, whether they are able to convey their, their message
Speaker:in a way that's, not a brisk tone.
Speaker:Cause I think to being direct is very important to be a leader,
Speaker:but it's also direct with an understanding and an empathy.
Speaker:Like it's, you're direct in your matter of fact as to avoid confusion,
Speaker:but you're not direct in matter of fact, to be a jerk and call the
Speaker:shots and make decisions in a vacuum.
Speaker:Some of the leadership qualities I think of.
Speaker:Certainly knowledge is there and you made a great point, experience.
Speaker:I continue to learn and I continue to make decisions based on
Speaker:when something presents itself.
Speaker:As like saying, I remember this similar situation happening in my
Speaker:past, either to me or I have made a decision reflecting on my team.
Speaker:And that experience comes into play later where, okay, I'm gonna
Speaker:handle it a little bit differently.
Speaker:Some of the traits I think of is, is be thoughtful, be fair, be optimistic.
Speaker:What do those things have to do with running business?
Speaker:Right, but for leadership, those intangibles are, I think, paramount.
Speaker:I think there's something really interesting too, on this, in, in
Speaker:this paradigm of characteristics.
Speaker:And that's that I think a lot of times a leader has both the
Speaker:qualities that make them a great leader and may have qualities that.
Speaker:The things that define them as leader might also be their
Speaker:weaknesses and the reason and what I, what I mean there is, if you are
Speaker:let's, let's just take one trait.
Speaker:Let's just take kindness.
Speaker:If you are exceptionally kind, like too an extreme, at some point,
Speaker:the kindness can be a weakness.
Speaker:And that's because sometimes different people are gonna
Speaker:learn, not always by kindness.
Speaker:So like people need to learn, you don't have to be mean.
Speaker:But if you take any characteristic trait and I think if you pull it to
Speaker:an extreme, I think at some point the extreme traits become problematic.
Speaker:If you don't have those traits, meaning they're, you're very low, let's say
Speaker:on the scale of kindness or honesty or optimism, there are also a weakness.
Speaker:So there's like a, a point along the curve of kindness and optimism and
Speaker:stuff where those things are beneficial.
Speaker:And then there's areas where if you are a little too much of this
Speaker:or that, it creates an environment that's not optimal in every situation.
Speaker:And every business is gonna be different.
Speaker:You could have subordinates that, tough, mean, gritty guys, and for
Speaker:them, they, you know, they respond to, and they, and he becomes a cohesive
Speaker:team through a certain type of leader.
Speaker:And that same leader in a different environment, something else,
Speaker:less the opposite of that, it wouldn't necessarily work so well.
Speaker:So I think it's think it's hard.
Speaker:Let's say to put together the right characteristics you need to be
Speaker:a leader for your specific team.
Speaker:And so I think.
Speaker:You're gonna be a, the type of leader you are, and you're gonna
Speaker:be able to gain traits over time.
Speaker:Like you said, I think people can become better leaders.
Speaker:And I think you'll refine yourself based on the environment you're in.
Speaker:So wherever you're working, you're gonna become the better
Speaker:leader at that environment.
Speaker:Hopefully, I think simultaneously you could learn bad traits that
Speaker:may work, temporarily or from the short term, but could create an
Speaker:environment where no one really wants to work with you, or it fosters like
Speaker:a bad situation in the long term.
Speaker:So trading long term for short term is always a problem in a business.
Speaker:You're right, yeah.
Speaker:You definitely nailed it with the balancing act.
Speaker:That's why all leaders aren't great leaders is the ones that
Speaker:are, are able to balance all those things that you mentioned.
Speaker:I always say, and I probably said it numerous times on this podcast, it's the
Speaker:whole Keep It Simple Stupid mentality.
Speaker:So even when it comes to leadership and it, when it comes to that be,
Speaker:and too kind as an example, It's like everybody needs to understand the goal.
Speaker:And when we're constantly talking about here is the goal.
Speaker:This is a business, this is fine, we're gonna respect each other.
Speaker:I'm gonna listen to you.
Speaker:I'm gonna be honest with you.
Speaker:I'm gonna be curious, I'm gonna ask questions, all of these things, but at the
Speaker:end of the day, accountability matters.
Speaker:And that's why I say put things on their plate because I think human
Speaker:nature is nobody wants to drop the ball.
Speaker:So if one person has one task, on their plate, then they're
Speaker:probably going to do that.
Speaker:And also it empowers them to feel like they're contributing in a way
Speaker:that they can speak up in meetings.
Speaker:It just breeds this sort of a collaboration because everybody's role
Speaker:is important and everybody's role matters that that being said, it is a business.
Speaker:The leader can be kind as can't be, but we have a goal here.
Speaker:That's what the job is.
Speaker:We have to do the job and you have to be accountable.
Speaker:So, and then again, a good leadership along those lines is flexibility.
Speaker:Sometimes, maybe deadlines or the ask is more than we thought.
Speaker:So things, so deadlines have to change or adjust as long
Speaker:as there's open communication.
Speaker:And you want your, the people that are reporting to you, you really want them
Speaker:to have confidence and comfort in, in reaching out to you, knocking on your
Speaker:door, coming up to you without the fear of saying uhoh, uh, oh, I, I have to
Speaker:answer for not being able to do this.
Speaker:Something that I absolutely agree with in what you're saying there is
Speaker:that one of the leaders, primary jobs, when they first come into being a
Speaker:leader or a manager or into the role, maybe they're coming from outside
Speaker:and stepping into a leadership role.
Speaker:I think one of the penultimate things you're supposed do is.
Speaker:Is figure out how this company wants to grow because you really have to own that
Speaker:growth, you really have to own that role.
Speaker:And that means that if something goes wrong in your sphere it's on you, even
Speaker:if it's like on one of your subordinates or one of your team members errors.
Speaker:So the responsibility rolls up.
Speaker:In a sense.
Speaker:And if you're getting a step into a business and you don't know
Speaker:how it functions, you don't know why it's working the way it is.
Speaker:I don't think you're gonna have team members that follow you very
Speaker:well, even they won't understand.
Speaker:If you have a hard time understanding, then they're really gonna have
Speaker:a hard time understanding.
Speaker:And when things are too much and then you pass them onto the team
Speaker:and the team of gives you the feedback that maybe it's too much.
Speaker:Then you have to both learn like what's coming at you from the top and
Speaker:what's coming at you from the bottom.
Speaker:So I think that great leadership skill comes first with.
Speaker:Like owning, owning that role and what that entails and that, that
Speaker:could take some time figuring out how everything works.
Speaker:You're trying to get, you know, everything understood like, okay,
Speaker:what services does this company offer?
Speaker:How is it, how does it want to grow?
Speaker:What is it trying?
Speaker:What area of the business is trying to grow in?
Speaker:How, how best can and this company grow and really understand, I
Speaker:guess the business itself first.
Speaker:Because then it's, then it comes easier to explain to your team
Speaker:or to figure out your goals or to put objectives and stuff together.
Speaker:What exactly are you gonna do next?
Speaker:Like, okay, here, you've just taken a look at the game board and now
Speaker:what's your next move gonna be?
Speaker:I think you have to first look at the game board and own, okay, this is where I am.
Speaker:This is the first, when it came before me put these pieces down, or this
Speaker:is what the company's working with.
Speaker:You have to work.
Speaker:I think in that sphere first.
Speaker:I agree.
Speaker:And to that point, the next step in that point, I think one of the most
Speaker:important things for a leader is.
Speaker:No matter where I am when I'm the person I'm reporting to, I hope does this for me.
Speaker:And I hope I do this for anybody that reports to me is put your
Speaker:people in a position to succeed.
Speaker:That alone will show that you're a leader because it, again, it empowers the,
Speaker:those people that are working for you.
Speaker:It empowers them and makes them feel important.
Speaker:And that value that feeling that they're respected and that they matter.
Speaker:It's so very important.
Speaker:And then it's just little wins.
Speaker:You're putting 'em in a position to succeed, and now they're respecting
Speaker:you, and now they're willing, willing to go the extra mile for you.
Speaker:And not only that, it gives them initiative that makes them more proactive.
Speaker:It makes them contribute more and then the machine just gets better.
Speaker:And now they're getting more things added on their plate because.
Speaker:Yet again, uh, something popped in my head and that is that leadership
Speaker:needs to surround themselves with a good team, with good people.
Speaker:And good people comes from feeling like they're respected because then
Speaker:they're gonna do things for you.
Speaker:And then they're gonna feel like you're one cohesive unit,
Speaker:and, and that's important.
Speaker:So I agree.
Speaker:You, you nailed it.
Speaker:The conflict that I think arises in leadership naturally is probably
Speaker:one big reason, that I've heard that people don't want to be leaders.
Speaker:So dealing with conflict and that's usually interpersonal,
Speaker:uh, could be departmental.
Speaker:It could, but generally it's gonna come down to, you know, there's a conflict,
Speaker:but it's gonna be resolved by talking it out by figuring it out, communicating,
Speaker:uh, it's not gonna be like a court case.
Speaker:You know, you're not gonna be able to necessarily pull all your evidence
Speaker:and state your case to a jury.
Speaker:And then some, you know, impartial, party's gonna decide.
Speaker:In leadership, it's working with somebody else or two other people
Speaker:or another department or something.
Speaker:And you have to make your case.
Speaker:And a lot of times that involves conflict and does involve a
Speaker:little bit of give and take.
Speaker:And that is a little, scary that's to say, that is a little
Speaker:bit like jarring to think of.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I, I don't just have to come into work and do the work I want to do.
Speaker:Right, I'm like, if you're a painter, it's like, I just wanna paint.
Speaker:Now, you're like, well, you're painting, but you're also gonna have
Speaker:to resolve conflicts and, and stuff.
Speaker:And then it's like, ah, why would I give up the, the part of the job I like
Speaker:the most for a whole bunch of stuff I don't really like that much either.
Speaker:And staying away from conflict, as well, is a huge issue.
Speaker:If you just let the teams run rampant, it's sort of like a farm with no fences.
Speaker:Like the animals just running crazy all over the place.
Speaker:I don't think it, I don't think it runs a business very well that way.
Speaker:No, you really have to nip it in the bud and conflict is such a like
Speaker:broad term because of what kind of conflict are we dealing with?
Speaker:Is it internal people not getting along, is it having to do with the
Speaker:subordinate whoever they report to, that sort of power structure.
Speaker:Or even if it's a parallel situation, because like, you know, the sales
Speaker:and marketing who should be making the decisions, like what, what
Speaker:is conflict necessarily mean?
Speaker:But that bottom line is, as far as when I look at conflict, it's, it's always.
Speaker:Nip it in the bud, but confront it head on, like, this is a direct conversation.
Speaker:And if it, for example, if there's a confrontation or if there's some
Speaker:sort of conflict that happens on my team and, and maybe it's with me,
Speaker:maybe it's with my leadership skills.
Speaker:I don't want it to be handled in a meeting publicly.
Speaker:I don't want to go down that route.
Speaker:I don't want anything to happen because you don't really have all the details and
Speaker:you don't really know what's going on.
Speaker:And you don't also wanna, you know, it's always this big thing of respond
Speaker:versus react, cuz it's really easy when somebody says something sharp
Speaker:to say something sharp back and that doesn't help any situation.
Speaker:Plus you lose your integrity as a leader when you do that or it's your
Speaker:ego taking over you can over where you wanna show everybody whose boss.
Speaker:When the dust settles a little bit later in that day, have a conversation.
Speaker:I let 'em come into the office and vent, just vent, whether it may have
Speaker:nothing to do with me, but whatever it is, that's a problem if, if venting
Speaker:is even required, but the point is, is to let them explain themselves.
Speaker:So you understand what the actual conflict is, what the problem is.
Speaker:And then once you have that information in, in a cool
Speaker:setting once you understand it.
Speaker:And then tally in the respecting of the differences and your empathy for
Speaker:the situation, um, whatever the case may be, then you can like move forward
Speaker:appropriately on, on what is best for the situation or the business in
Speaker:terms of just basically mitigating that sort of conflict from festering
Speaker:or growing any further, just, just nip it right then in there if possible.
Speaker:I think also what you're describing as a leader, You, you may not ever
Speaker:have all the information you need to make every decision, right?
Speaker:So you want to be the kind of leader who makes the best decisions every time.
Speaker:Cause a lot of what you do as a leader comes down to decision making.
Speaker:So when you don't have a lot of the information, that's a risk.
Speaker:So if you just chalk it up to, you know, the more risk that exists in a decision,
Speaker:the harder that decision is probably gonna be and the implications or consequences
Speaker:of making decisions, where you've.
Speaker:You know, you don't have all the information is high, so
Speaker:that's where ego comes in.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Like you mentioned, that's also where confidence tries to shy
Speaker:away from, letting the whole team, see how much risk there is.
Speaker:You balance all that a little bit because you know, it's hard, it's
Speaker:hard to, to do this if you just react.
Speaker:So I think the best way that, you know, it can create an environment where.
Speaker:That you're creating and cultivating a great team, which you said is
Speaker:really, really important, but no, team's gonna be free of conflict.
Speaker:So how do you create a great team and foster that always knowing that
Speaker:there's always gonna be conflict.
Speaker:And I think you.
Speaker:You do have to be patient.
Speaker:You do have to try to assess as much risk as you can and lower it.
Speaker:You do have to convey some confidence, but knowing that you're gonna make
Speaker:mistakes and fail along the way you kind of have to, you can't set it up, like
Speaker:you're the God of, of leaders and that everyone is, has to take your word on it.
Speaker:You're dealing with a lot of stuff.
Speaker:So really I think that skill in managing everything I just said, right.
Speaker:Assessing the risk being patient, knowing that you don't have all the information,
Speaker:being confident, but being able to fail.
Speaker:I think all of that could be probably summed up in like being
Speaker:able to manage your priorities.
Speaker:So is it like an absolute priority right now that you call someone out,
Speaker:that you lay someone out publicly.
Speaker:Where are the priorities with this?
Speaker:And if you can always fall back on what is the priority here like
Speaker:that we're trying to accomplish?
Speaker:Is this conflict gonna cause us some serious harm, then
Speaker:it becomes a higher priority.
Speaker:But if it's not a super high priority, I think it, it may be warranted to take
Speaker:a little bit of time to figure that out.
Speaker:Like you said, wait till the end of the day, wait until dust is settled
Speaker:and, and evaluate it at that point and let people, like, sometimes just
Speaker:someone saying it out loud, they realize how silly it is, you know?
Speaker:Exactly right.
Speaker:And they're a little bit too emotionally involved because of
Speaker:whatever happened at that moment.
Speaker:Everything that you just said, I agree with, and it was very, it occurred to
Speaker:me that another really important element in all of this is the consistency.
Speaker:Just the leader should be very, very consistent.
Speaker:So handling these type of things should be, you know, you're on.
Speaker:You're under the spotlight, basically.
Speaker:So a leader knows when there's conflict and when these things happen, how it was
Speaker:handled one time, months ago, and how different kinds of conflicts were handled.
Speaker:As long as you're pragmatic or, or consistent in your approach to
Speaker:handling and resolving situations.
Speaker:Again, it goes back to the team just trusting and
Speaker:building a really good morale.
Speaker:Whether, they agree with your final decision or not to know that they can
Speaker:approach you with it, to know that you're going to be fair and consistent.
Speaker:I think helps and it, and it really does breed a comfortable
Speaker:environment for everybody involved.
Speaker:And the last thing you want is things to fester, a lack of communication in
Speaker:any relationship at work or otherwise, tends to create a festering thing.
Speaker:And then now we're getting more emotions involved and then these little conflicts
Speaker:can become much larger conflicts.
Speaker:And then it goes back to the priority spectrum that Kevin just mentioned.
Speaker:Something that would, that probably was a pretty low priority.
Speaker:Somehow has now moved up a couple notches and become a larger priority because
Speaker:it became a larger issue unnecessarily.
Speaker:I really like this and taking this in a different direction here for a second.
Speaker:And that is if you had a story.
Speaker:To any of this.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Cause we talked about a lot of things and I don't think everyone has a story about
Speaker:every single thing we've talked about.
Speaker:But if anything jumps out without like completely bashing a prior leader but
Speaker:uh, if you had an experience either where you were the leader or you were
Speaker:the subordinate or you were, you know, working in parallel or whatever it is, um,
Speaker:where leadership, you know, was involved.
Speaker:And you learn something or you saw something and you had a good takeaway
Speaker:from it, uh, about leadership.
Speaker:If you had anything that came to mind, as I've said, all this?
Speaker:Oh, boy.
Speaker:Do I strike you as somebody who may or may not have been involved in confrontations
Speaker:with my leaders, over the years?
Speaker:I guess, I guess the thing that sticks out to me is when I've had
Speaker:conversations, with people, I never think of my, my leadership towards others.
Speaker:I never think of it in those terms.
Speaker:I always think about how people handled it, that I admired.
Speaker:So basically my leaders, and then I try to apply that when, when I can, if I can.
Speaker:The conversations I've had with leaders with really boil down to they, they
Speaker:listen to me, they were authentic.
Speaker:They really were listening.
Speaker:And they really understood what I was saying, whether they
Speaker:agreed with me or not, they could see where I was coming from.
Speaker:And then they just handled it in such a, they didn't put their
Speaker:foot down and say, I'm the boss, and this is how it's going to be.
Speaker:They thoroughly, listen to me and understood what I was coming.
Speaker:And then they just tried to explain to me like, look, you know, we have to do
Speaker:it this way, or, you know what I have to do here almost like I answered the
Speaker:question for them cuz they're like, you know how to I have to handle this, right.
Speaker:And it's like, okay, you're right.
Speaker:So I'm a little, I might be a little bit out of line here, but you got the
Speaker:message that I was trying to get a cross.
Speaker:Right, like, yeah, I totally understand.
Speaker:But so I feel like the leaders that actually cared to understand what I was
Speaker:griping about or what the conflict was.
Speaker:I don't know, I just work is work and jobs are job.
Speaker:And whether you're fighting for getting a new resource that you
Speaker:would like, a new tool to add to your, your marketing stack, right?
Speaker:Those things or a new employee, or you need more help, or the deadline's
Speaker:not there, like as long as there's open communication and they are
Speaker:willing to listen, cuz I could.
Speaker:I think the reason that sticks out as something that's so important is
Speaker:because conversely, when I've had these concerns we'll call them and
Speaker:I have approached people about it.
Speaker:And when they're like, you know, tough or that when their response is
Speaker:so terse and it's almost like they didn't even hear what I had to say
Speaker:or their unwilling to let me finish.
Speaker:That's just sends me into a spin.
Speaker:And then now as an employee, how, how hard do you think I'm gonna work for you?
Speaker:Like you just ticked me off and you just disrespected my own opinion in such a way.
Speaker:It's like, I'm gonna do the bare minimum.
Speaker:I'm gonna do my job, but I'm not gonna run through a brick wall for you because
Speaker:of the way you just treated me and something that was important to me.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:What about you?
Speaker:I love to hear your thoughts on this.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I, I have a lot of examples.
Speaker:One of the ones that, that really stands out to me is, making my
Speaker:point that we needed something, we needed to do something.
Speaker:And that conversation, the answer sort of being like, No,
Speaker:and, it's not the right time.
Speaker:And, and those two together are always like, okay, well, there's nothing thing
Speaker:I can really do about time, you know?
Speaker:So I'll just keep coming back.
Speaker:So it was one of those things where another department was fighting
Speaker:for something they wanted too.
Speaker:And it was my understanding from our leader that, that my ask and their
Speaker:asks were a fairly similar, ranking.
Speaker:And then they got theirs and, and I didn't get mine.
Speaker:And I asked about that, kind of bluntly, right?
Speaker:Like what swayed the decision that changed the timing for theirs or for mine?
Speaker:And the answer was, oh, they were just a little bit more forceful.
Speaker:And if you had been a little more forceful with your ask and I was like, huh.
Speaker:At first, I was like, yeah, I guess I could have, but then the
Speaker:more I thought about it, right?
Speaker:Maybe this happens to a lot of people.
Speaker:The more I thought about it, the more I was like, Hmm, it's more
Speaker:like a culture at this point.
Speaker:This culture that this environment, that this leader is trying to create,
Speaker:to me, is one where the squeaky wheel is always gonna get the grease.
Speaker:And you could always knock on someone's door and tell them every day.
Speaker:But at some point it just sort of gets annoying.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And, uh, the timing thing to me was like, okay, not right now guessing
Speaker:something has to change for the next time the timing comes up.
Speaker:So every time, like there was any opportunity, I brought my case up.
Speaker:It wasn't like there was no.
Speaker:I wasn't doing that.
Speaker:But the way that it was communicated to me was being more forceful about the ask.
Speaker:I was like, Hmm, this then this organization is creating an environment
Speaker:where it wants the teams to be more and more and more forceful.
Speaker:And the most forceful people are just gonna get their projects, get
Speaker:their asks, get the things they need and that, and in that case, I was
Speaker:like, this could be a really good leader for that type of personality.
Speaker:But I am not that type of personality.
Speaker:And so I was like, I don't know if this environment is ideal or even is even like
Speaker:a healthy environment for me to be in.
Speaker:This is a kind of leader where I've recognized may not necessarily
Speaker:be the best leader for me.
Speaker:Right, well, you that's the leadership deficiency for one thing, because
Speaker:that's not a, to me it's a poor way to handle it, obviously, but it also
Speaker:doesn't speak to the goals at hand.
Speaker:I mean you for sure, cuz we've worked together, for years and, and I know your
Speaker:personality and I know you're very matter of fact, and I know that you always
Speaker:can have proof of concept with things.
Speaker:So if you wanted something, you came very well prepared with proof of
Speaker:concept and what the benefit could be.
Speaker:So for the leader in that situation to have two separate asks and, and not
Speaker:weighing the value to the organization as, as being really the, the tipping
Speaker:point, whichever one's gonna win out, um, and then get boiling down to the
Speaker:loud one because I'm personality wise.
Speaker:I'm the, the loud one, I'm the squeaky wheel for sure.
Speaker:And you're the very pragmatic, very well organized.
Speaker:I called you a mad professor because you always had these amazing ideas.
Speaker:So well thought out and so prepared.
Speaker:And I would just go be the squeaky wheel saying, I want this, I want
Speaker:this, I want this kind of a thing.
Speaker:So for that leader, To not, I, I keep going back to the organization,
Speaker:like what's going to benefit, what is success gonna look like with option
Speaker:A and what does success look like with option B and how does that get
Speaker:us to our grand, um, ultimate goal?
Speaker:So very interesting, I would have not had all that very well either.
Speaker:Well, you dialed right into the, like the crux of it, right.
Speaker:Which is the goal or the outcome should sort of take precedent.
Speaker:And that's where again, having the priority be the goal, right.
Speaker:Not having ego be more important than let's say, uh, goal or something,
Speaker:but at the same time, you know, balancing relationships and you do
Speaker:need to set boundaries as a leader.
Speaker:I think there's.
Speaker:I think that there is a definite need for coming at a situation and making
Speaker:sure that, you know, some relationships, some team members may need a certain type
Speaker:of fostering or nurturing than others.
Speaker:And some may need more or less of that, but you're also, as a manager, as a leader
Speaker:ethically, it is your responsibility, you know, to make sure that there's
Speaker:like a certain boundary there.
Speaker:At the end of the day, if a team member isn't performing and then you give them
Speaker:help, you give them support, you try, you get, you put resources there to help them.
Speaker:Cuz you believe that they have that potential and they decide
Speaker:that that's not for them.
Speaker:You have to be willing to.
Speaker:Cut that off.
Speaker:Meaning when the relationship sours, you have to be able to recognize that
Speaker:it's not gonna be able to be cultivated.
Speaker:And then you have to be able to end that, and that is for the benefit
Speaker:of that employee and for you.
Speaker:So as, as far as conflict goes, firing, letting someone go is
Speaker:probably ranked up there with one of like the hardest conflicts
Speaker:you may have to face as a leader.
Speaker:Right, it really is.
Speaker:That's also another reason why those boundaries are very, very important.
Speaker:I do still believe in an open door policy.
Speaker:And I, it's not always practical.
Speaker:It depends on the organization and how many people are there and
Speaker:how many people report to you.
Speaker:But I definitely subscribe to a weekly one-on-one.
Speaker:I think they're important because that's an opportunity for the people
Speaker:that are reporting to you to vent.
Speaker:Even if it's an only a 30 minute, it is just kind of a, once you figure
Speaker:out the cadence and the, like that type itinerary of what to expect
Speaker:on a week to week reporting basis.
Speaker:Sure, there's still the, the group, the group marketing meeting, or the
Speaker:group meeting for the organization.
Speaker:That happens probably weekly, but even the one-on-ones I think are beneficial
Speaker:because that's a little bit of a, of a safe place, so to speak for grievances
Speaker:or conflicts to come out right there.
Speaker:So now it's on your radar a little bit.
Speaker:Not only that it goes back to putting, you wanna put them in a position to succeed.
Speaker:So you're talking about what they can do next and where they're at.
Speaker:Um, I think if, if the.
Speaker:If your structure, if your organization is set up in a way
Speaker:where you can do weekly one-on-ones I think they really are beneficial.
Speaker:And again, some weeks it might not even be necessary to talk for more than 10
Speaker:minutes, because everything is dialed in.
Speaker:So well, um, that's fine, but just so it's there and just so they can come in, and
Speaker:talk about their successes for the week.
Speaker:Not necessarily even their complaints, but they talk about their successes and
Speaker:they can also bring up some potential obstacles or I call it critical path.
Speaker:Some things that they can see that may be coming down the road that could
Speaker:prevent them from achieving their goal.
Speaker:Yeah, I think a lot of businesses of different types, may think
Speaker:like one-on-ones, what the heck are you talking about?
Speaker:Cause in some businesses it's much more structured and built
Speaker:into the organization than others.
Speaker:But even just a manager going to the job site or when I worked in a
Speaker:restaurant like the manager taking over the role or a shift or something.
Speaker:It's assumed that they've come up through that and done that and they
Speaker:know what it, what it looks like, but how this specific team works together
Speaker:well may require some oversight.
Speaker:Or may require some conversations that I think may only, you know,
Speaker:come from being in the thick of it.
Speaker:So I think you, I think that's really a really solid, really
Speaker:interesting like point you make.
Speaker:And, and then to go off that is this idea that if the leader is shouldering all
Speaker:this responsibility, they own success and they own the failure of their team.
Speaker:Then that, that to me also speaks of stress.
Speaker:How does the leader suck in all that stress like a sponge and still not
Speaker:want to ring their own neck at the end of the day or the end of the week.
Speaker:So how do you balance the work and life and health of, of that with all the
Speaker:duties that are required as a leader?
Speaker:Well, the way I do it is probably not recommended for others.
Speaker:And what I mean by that is I, at this point in my career, I'm pretty steadfast
Speaker:at, I believe in separating work from home because work can affect your personal life
Speaker:and, and, and conversely personal life can affect your, your work performance.
Speaker:And that's not good.
Speaker:We want healthy both.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So what I do, what I've taught myself to do, for example, even when I walk
Speaker:my dog, When I go out for walks for a mile or two miles with my dog,
Speaker:I don't even take my cell phone.
Speaker:I literally do not take myself, ever.
Speaker:People are always saying how you can't take a picture and all these things.
Speaker:I just want that, that element of detachment, for that period of time.
Speaker:And that's my personal life.
Speaker:So work wise, what I do is when the work day is over, I shut the computer off.
Speaker:If, if a working from home or in the office, I shut it off.
Speaker:So when the work day's over and I, I refuse, I can be reached people, have
Speaker:my telephone number, and if there's emergency, I can be reached, but.
Speaker:As far as having my emails, going to my cell phone, my
Speaker:personal phone, not gonna happen.
Speaker:And when the work day is over, because I'm a father as well.
Speaker:So I have a family life I have to deal with.
Speaker:And I know Kevin, Kevin has several more kids than I have, and
Speaker:that's a lot of responsibility.
Speaker:There's a lot going on.
Speaker:And when the day is over, I'm focused on work during the, and when
Speaker:the day is over, I shut work off and whatever happens, at 4:00 PM.
Speaker:Throughout the later in the night, I'll, I'll see it.
Speaker:When I come in at five in the morning, I'll see it all and I'll handle it right
Speaker:then it, it doesn't need to bleed in for me, that's the way I am able to do it.
Speaker:Obviously that doesn't work for everybody.
Speaker:Some, some people where I have so much responsibility that that's not
Speaker:practical, but the point I would try to stress is, is try to find a way
Speaker:to separate the two, because you need to be healthy in your personal life.
Speaker:You can't let one affect the other.
Speaker:You can't let one bleed into the other because it's just once that
Speaker:start of manifestation and frustration and stress levels start rising and
Speaker:rising, rising, it just continues.
Speaker:It doesn't, it doesn't alleviate itself without you putting
Speaker:forth the effort to do so.
Speaker:How do you handle that?
Speaker:I, I was gonna say, uh, very similar.
Speaker:I, I was gonna make the joke of serenity now.
Speaker:Like if you just suck it all in, it's gonna blow.
Speaker:It's a Seinfeld joke, but the, um, yeah, the longer you let a conflict
Speaker:go, you do have some control over it.
Speaker:So when we said earlier, being patient letting go to the end of the day, that
Speaker:might be what's needed for that moment.
Speaker:But a pattern that exists of repeated, recurring conflict
Speaker:that, you don't address, it's just gonna add to more stress.
Speaker:And if it's become something where look, you don't have the authority
Speaker:or the capability to address that this is the way of life.
Speaker:This is the way it is.
Speaker:You know, I think there always has to be that assessment done
Speaker:by each individual person.
Speaker:Like, is it worth it?
Speaker:Is there anything that could be done?
Speaker:And if not, okay, this is the way life looks.
Speaker:And maybe this is looks for this role so then what do I
Speaker:have to do to balance this out?
Speaker:Think of it, like this is a heavy backpack, you are going to have to
Speaker:wear while we are trudging around.
Speaker:So is there something you can do to let that off, right?
Speaker:Take it off.
Speaker:And if you find activities that are only letting out like a portion of that stress.
Speaker:I don't think it's gonna be suitable for you.
Speaker:And I've seen people completely change their careers in environments that were
Speaker:just comp like the money was great.
Speaker:The money was there.
Speaker:Would've helped their family.
Speaker:Would've helped.
Speaker:I don't know a lot of things.
Speaker:Right, but just the work or the time was just too much.
Speaker:And they switched their career, their life, their leadership, like
Speaker:they start, they were at a top and then they went to the bottom
Speaker:because it of what it did to them.
Speaker:And I think that that is a really hard individual choice to make.
Speaker:Yeah, the grind is hard.
Speaker:You want to avoid the grind just because it, it wears on you.
Speaker:It really it's a, I call it the rock over a rope.
Speaker:It doesn't seem like it's doing much, but eventually that rock
Speaker:cuts that rope and then whatever's on the other end, just drops off.
Speaker:You definitely have to find that balance, find that, um, thing,
Speaker:go for a run, all these things.
Speaker:But separate the two, because I always say it's not, there are no emergencies.
Speaker:We're at work.
Speaker:And now listen, sometimes there are, I guess, quote unquote
Speaker:emergencies, but for the most part, everything's going to be fine.
Speaker:We gotta fix it.
Speaker:Identify the problem, remedy the problem.
Speaker:That's just a key element to any business.
Speaker:But try not to take it home with you and just you, you really do have to find that
Speaker:separation that compartmentalization.
Speaker:At least I guess I'm saying that you really do, but I
Speaker:should be saying it for myself.
Speaker:I know that I really need to separate and compartmentalize the stresses
Speaker:of work with the stresses of life.
Speaker:And I don't want them to merge with each other in any way, shape or form.
Speaker:I would say a tip here from dealing with this myself is if you can
Speaker:recognize situations that provide a lot of feedback, they usually
Speaker:open the door for changing them.
Speaker:Meaning if you work with another person and they give you a lot of feedback, like
Speaker:this is working, this is not working.
Speaker:I like this.
Speaker:I don't like this.
Speaker:That sometimes is the bridge you're gonna need to potentially change a conflicting
Speaker:pattern or conflicting situation.
Speaker:If you work with someone who's like not giving you any time a
Speaker:day being terse you mentioned.
Speaker:Isn't giving any feedback.
Speaker:Is a different leader altogether, or is underneath you or above you.
Speaker:If you're not getting the feedback you need.
Speaker:Which would then help you change the pattern?
Speaker:That's a, that's a very problematic situation.
Speaker:And I usually give them the least effort and the least energy because I, you
Speaker:know, I think you gravitate towards situations of, of better feedback,
Speaker:because then you're gonna be able to learn quicker or become more adept at it.
Speaker:Be more flexible with, you can take more chances with it.
Speaker:You can move things along more progressively the faster,
Speaker:quicker, more feedback you're getting from any situation.
Speaker:So I guess to summarize all this, I have some notes here.
Speaker:So we've talked about quite a lot.
Speaker:I think one, it's, it's fair to mention that maybe not everyone's a born leader.
Speaker:Maybe some people are, but it is something that everyone can become better at.
Speaker:And I think a lot of times that starts in a business with figuring out the business.
Speaker:How it wants to grow, what the role is, what your team looks like,
Speaker:what resources you have around you.
Speaker:What the game board looks like, so that you can figure out your next move.
Speaker:Another thing that we talked about was setting clear, very objective goals,
Speaker:quantifiable goals, clear goals.
Speaker:Knowing that that's gonna be aligned with what the business needs, right.
Speaker:So that you can, you have the ability to explain that to your team.
Speaker:If they're not understanding it, then you know, they're not gonna
Speaker:go away, go very far with it.
Speaker:The third thing was cultivating the right team, which I, we didn't
Speaker:talk too much about, but it's very hard to do, but I think that
Speaker:that, revolves around, experience.
Speaker:Seeing who's the right fit, seeing who is a good member of your team.
Speaker:Who's, you know, not everyone on the team is gonna be great all the time,
Speaker:a little bit of give and take there.
Speaker:And then finally the knowing that the entire goal that you're after
Speaker:is your responsibility, as a leader.
Speaker:People may screw up, you know, your teammates screw up.
Speaker:But that's on you because it was your job to make sure that they
Speaker:would know enough that if they did screw up, they could recover.
Speaker:Or that they wouldn't screw up or that the screw wouldn't be so bad or maybe the
Speaker:screw up actually ended up being good.
Speaker:It falls on the, the leader to take responsibility for the team.
Speaker:And I, and I wouldn't say that that's micromanagement, I would say
Speaker:it's more just proper management, better leadership in general.
Speaker:So those are some of the, the big high, oh, and the last thing we
Speaker:just talked about stress, uh, doing all this is gonna create stress,
Speaker:so you're gonna need an outlet.
Speaker:Right, so having all of these things in mind, I think, is what makes a
Speaker:great or a better business leader.
Speaker:Is there anything else you wanted to add, Ronn?
Speaker:You essentially said this, but I always think of it, as I mentioned
Speaker:this earlier goal action obstacle.
Speaker:The, the things I would say from my vantage point to take away from this
Speaker:is goal action obstacle and put your people in a position to succeed.
Speaker:They kind of work hand in hand.
Speaker:The goal action obstacle when everybody's on the same page: understanding what you
Speaker:want to do, understanding what you need to do to achieve it, and understanding what's
Speaker:gonna prevent you from achieving it.
Speaker:When you can overcome those things, and then that allows
Speaker:everybody to be on the same page.
Speaker:It allows you to put your team in a position to succeed so
Speaker:they can have their successes.
Speaker:And that's a pretty cohesive work environment, and a collaborative effort
Speaker:and, um, the results, the results shine through when everybody is.
Speaker:You know, enjoying their job and happy to, to work on as a team and,
Speaker:and come into your office and fill you with all kinds of, conflicts.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:I, I think if someone's thinking, okay, where do I start with all this?
Speaker:There are good books that may give some good outlines and good ways to help.
Speaker:I mean, we're talking, there's characteristics of being a great leader.
Speaker:There's patterns, processes.
Speaker:There's, you know, there's a lot here.
Speaker:So do you have any books or any resources you'd recommend?
Speaker:I mean, we're not, not the, either of us are leadership experts, but
Speaker:we're talking about this topic.
Speaker:So was there anything you'd wanna recommend to anybody?
Speaker:I am of gigantic Disney fan and Bob Iger of course ran the company for 23 years.
Speaker:And last year, maybe two years ago, he came out with a book
Speaker:called A Ride of a Lifetime.
Speaker:And I tell you what it, I have the hard copy and read it.
Speaker:And I got the audio version and the audio version, he's actually reading it.
Speaker:So you're hearing Bob tell his story.
Speaker:But one of the things that really, really, made me love the book and listen to it
Speaker:repeatedly, is he talks about leadership.
Speaker:He talks about how he handles situations.
Speaker:The book starts with a young child was snatched by an alligator
Speaker:on the shores, at Disney World.
Speaker:And that that's a, obviously an awful, awful story.
Speaker:He starts the book like that.
Speaker:And immediately you feel the empathy for him and, and for the family, as he talks
Speaker:about how he handled that situation.
Speaker:Not only publicly, but to the family.
Speaker:And then the whole book is it talks about his ride and his story, but
Speaker:throughout he talks about leadership.
Speaker:And at the end of the book, The final chapter, he really talks about the
Speaker:pillar success he had at Disney, which is phenomenal as well as like 10 leadership
Speaker:qualities that make a good leader.
Speaker:And, and I mentioned a lot of them today by saying things like
Speaker:optimism and things of that nature.
Speaker:That's on his listen.
Speaker:He explains to why.
Speaker:And I absolutely adore that book and I've read it it for
Speaker:business purposes, constantly.
Speaker:So that ride of a lifetime by Bob Iger, I think it came out two years ago.
Speaker:Yeah, his name is etched everywhere because of how much Disney has exploded.
Speaker:And I would say, there's a book I read recently, that's really fascinating.
Speaker:Came through our family.
Speaker:Everyone really loved it, and it was recommended to us.
Speaker:It's called Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink.
Speaker:He's the, you know, ex Navy seal.
Speaker:He wrote a really cool book.
Speaker:Definitely would recommend that to like listeners.
Speaker:He also has a podcast.
Speaker:I think it's called.
Speaker:I don't it's Jocko Podcast.
Speaker:I think that's what it's called.
Speaker:You could find it that way.
Speaker:And he talks about, leadership from, being in the seal team, which is a
Speaker:very interesting take on leadership.
Speaker:And, uh, when, when your team fails, you know, People die.
Speaker:So very, very high stakes leadership examples.
Speaker:And it makes a very interesting case on that.
Speaker:It's amazing how much like the, like the topic of leadership has so many
Speaker:things, you know, aligned with it no matter the size of the organization.
Speaker:So it's really interesting.
Speaker:Ronn, is there any way you want people to get in contact with you?
Speaker:You can find me on LinkedIn.
Speaker:Ronn Burner, R O N N Burner.
Speaker:Or Twitter @fakeronnburner.
Speaker:Um, hah hah.
Speaker:That's awesome.
Speaker:You're not the real Ronn Burner, huh?
Speaker:I did that when, when Twitter first came out, remember there was all those
Speaker:like real accounts of fake accounts.
Speaker:I just thought it was funny.
Speaker:And it's been 20 years now, 2000, like 2005 so I've been at Twitter
Speaker:adopter since the very early years.
Speaker:And here's a funny, another leadership thing I should add.
Speaker:Leadership also.
Speaker:Well, it's funny that we talk about Twitter because leadership is also
Speaker:knowing what decisions not to make.
Speaker:And Disney agreed to buy Iger, agreed to buy Twitter.
Speaker:And they agreed on it and he slept on it.
Speaker:And the following morning, he woke up and said he couldn't sleep that night
Speaker:and said it doesn't match our brand.
Speaker:Twitter's just not a Disney brand.
Speaker:So the following morning he canceled it.
Speaker:So the, the, they bought Twitter.
Speaker:And canceled.
Speaker:He, he pulled out of the deal the very next morning, and
Speaker:that was all a wise decision.
Speaker:Like, know what decisions not to make is also part of leadership.
Speaker:Man, this has been really awesome, really great topic.
Speaker:And I love the last little bit there.
Speaker:The twitter thing, it's a cool story.
Speaker:Thank you everybody for listening to this.
Speaker:We'll be back again next time.
Speaker:So hope you got a lot out of leadership and that you're
Speaker:more encouraged to be a leader.
Speaker:Thanks, Ronn.
