On today's episode of the Judgmental Podcast, Christine and Hugh dive into the major problem that is delays in Family court. Hugh shares a personal experience of what happened to his client in Oldham County. Christine dives in to give more backstory about her journey over the last two years since she left family Court.

On today's episode of the Judgmental

Podcast, we dive into the major

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problem that is delays in Family court.

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Hugh shares a personal experience of what

happened to his client in Oldham County.

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I dive in and give more backstory

about my journey over the last two

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years since I left family Court./

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You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: Oldham was one of my

least favorite counties to go to.

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I think.

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Hugh: I, I, for my clients, I,

I say you gotta stay out because

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you are not gonna get an order No.

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For years.

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If you're financially disadvantaged Yeah.

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Then it's, it's gonna get

worse before it gets better.

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How long did

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Christine: you wait for that one

order outta olden that everybody

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in the world knows about?

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Hugh: Oh, it was over two years.

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Mm-hmm.

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It was a two day trial.

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There were multiple case management

conference that my partner and I

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think it opposing counsel, so there

were three parties to the case.

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So it was a complex case,

but it involved a child.

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It involved a very sick one of the

parties to the marriage was very sick.

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Mm-hmm.

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Hugh: It involved a house that

was being lost, a business and

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a farm that were falling apart.

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Things like they were just,

they were losing everything.

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And they had this third party claim to, I

believe, one of the pieces of real estate.

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And they had intervened and

there was a business interest

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that needed to be resolved.

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And so the case took

about two days to try.

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And then next, how long before trial?

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Like

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Christine: how long before

day cases filed till trial?

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I

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Hugh: don't know.

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Like, I don't remember.

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I wasn't the primary on that case.

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But

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Christine: more than a year probably.

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Hugh: Yeah, I'm sure.

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Okay.

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I'm sure.

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I mean, even a basic case is gonna take

that long if, if you have to go to trial.

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So it took a long time to get to trial.

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Had the trial scheduled.

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There were lots of depositions.

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There were just, um, people hiding money.

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One of the parties had been.

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For instance, we found through Discovery

had been taking his paycheck and he sent,

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uh, he divided one paycheck into 20.

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He had it spread among 20

different bank accounts.

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20, or it might have been

22, but it was 20 or more.

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Mm-hmm.

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So it'd be hard to track how

much money was coming in.

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Yeah.

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And was only showing like, part of it.

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I mean, it was, it was one of those,

but during the two years post-trial,

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there were, there was some motion,

some litigation that occurred.

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It was almost all because they had not

had a ruling and something was happening

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and both parties were filing for case

management conference for the sole purpose

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of saying, judge, this is falling apart.

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We need an order.

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We need kept hearing.

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We needed a decision.

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Yeah, I'm working on it.

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I'm putting finishing touches

on, I'm about to get it out.

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And then another, you know, six months

would go by, bring it before the

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motion hour it gets, get really, you

know, the court would be very annoyed

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that we're bringing it up again.

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And it, by the time we were

done, the house was already gone.

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Third party issue was, I

guess extinguished probably.

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'cause they lost the house.

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Mm-hmm.

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Something like that.

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I mean, it was, that issue was resolved.

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The child was no longer a child

by the time the order came out and

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the motions for child support were

pending through the whole thing.

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So, I mean, yeah, each month that goes

by there is accumulated child support,

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but the order came out and said, well,

by this time the child's 18th, so child

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support is moot and awarded nothing.

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Christine: You're kidding me.

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For

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Hugh: the intervening two years.

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And it's just

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Christine: too late to, I mean, and

the parties at that point probably

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didn't even have money to appeal.

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They,

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Hugh: they got to, it was funny.

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That is the one thing that could

get those parties to sit down at the

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table and settle because they sat

down and settled because we told 'em

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the appeal would be, eh, the appeal's

what, a year, year and a half.

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And that's I mean that's just,

we know that's what it is.

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Yeah.

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Um, and they didn't wanna do it.

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And we told them what

would happen on appeal.

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Even if they said the

judge got it all wrong.

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They would say, go back in front of

that same judge, do it all over again.

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And I mean, I, I think

one of the litigants.

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Legitimately was concerned that by

the time it got resolved at that

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point they would no longer be alive.

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Christine: Oh my goodness.

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And so, I mean, how tragic though it got

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Hugh: settled and it got settled in

a way that was a terrible compromise.

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So much worse than what I

believed our client should get.

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But the other side didn't do

a whole lot better because so

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many of the assets were lost.

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Yeah.

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Because neither of them could do

anything with them to save them while

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the court was, was waiting trauma.

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And, and at the same time I had that,

I had another one that was well over

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a year that we were waiting on that

involved two little kids and allegations

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of substance abuse you know, cohabitation

with, with somebody that was, you

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know, the new boyfriend who the kids

were not supposed to be exposed to.

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And they were, you know, went to go

live with them in the intervening time.

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And we can't get an

order out to do anything.

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Christine: Yeah,

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Hugh: well over a year.

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Christine: I mean, there

there is zero excuse for that.

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I don't care how many cases, I don't care.

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I mean, and this is one of the

problems and hopefully the, you know,

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the judges will be listening, but

no matter how complacent you become

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with your job, I mean, big picture,

there has to be a better way to do it.

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Or, or we should just

give up quite frankly.

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I mean, if this is the best

that the system can operate

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as, we just should give up.

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Hugh: Well, I mean, to a certain extent,

you and I both took different paths

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to get to that, to giving up and we,

we faced some, you know, something

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happened there, there was a reflection

point for each of us for totally

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different reasons where we thought,

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thought,

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Hugh: okay, I, like, for me personally, it

was, I, I got to about the 20 year point.

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Yeah.

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It was

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Hugh: time to, a lot of my decision was

based on business things and what I wanted

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the business to look like, and if I wanted

to spend the next 20 years doing the same

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thing, or I wanted to go in new ventures.

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Yeah.

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And I was fortunate enough to

be in a position I could kind

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of do whatever I wanted, but.

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The other part of it was I had already

pulled back from so much from the actual

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practice itself because I was just,

just I didn't believe in the system.

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The system didn't work.

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I, I, when I came in as an attorney,

believed that if you're more prepared

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and you can tell the best story

and you do the things right and you

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object to the right time, you go

through that, you're set to win.

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And it's just, well, hell, I was more

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Christine: naive than that.

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I thought that the truth

is what would matter.

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Hugh: Oh, wow.

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Plus my heart, you know?

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Yeah.

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But I mean, I understand you, you

had, I mean, you had brushes, um,

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actually with the system and got to

see from a litigants point of view or

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from someone other than an attorney.

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You know, how the system worked?

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Christine: Well, I mean, I, I got

divorced and that's what made me

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realize I knew all the answers,

quote unquote, you know what I mean?

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But I would get an email from my attorney

at the time and it would just send

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you into this spiral and you know what

the judge is gonna do, but it's still

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the notion that you're with somebody

that knows everything about you.

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And it really changed the way

I practice with my clients.

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Yeah.

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It was like they are going

through such an emotional time.

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Like you can't articulate it in

a way until it happens to you.

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And I mean, thank God I didn't

have kids and yada, yada yada.

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But still, it's just a very, it's a, it's

your personal business in a court of law.

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And there is not a single person out

here that hasn't done something that

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they don't want to have to testify to.

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You know what I mean?

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Hugh: Absolutely.

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Christine: And, and, you know, and.

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It did change the way I treated my

clients and I did love the notion of

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being like, we can get resolutions,

we can get those sort of things.

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But I do think my journey to get

where I am today was, you know,

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that was my divorce was when,

God bless, I don't even know.

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2017, I think maybe 2018.

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Um, and then as everyone in Louisville

knows in 2019, I was on the way to

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motion hour for something I should have

never been going to motion hour for.

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And I was a pedestrian, got hit by

a truck, um, suffered a concussion,

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traumatic brain injury and was,

it took a long time to be properly

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diagnosed and then was off work.

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I was cleared to go back to work

part-time when the world shut down

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for COVID, um, which was a blessing

in disguise for me to fully heal.

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But you do have this different

perspective in the sense that.

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The best, the best way I can explain it

is like the night before the accident, I

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don't really remember what I was doing.

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Like I don't have a clear memory, but

I'm sure it was like ordering DoorDash,

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having wine stressed out about all of the

motions I had to go through the next day.

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It was a gor, you know, gorgeous Sunday.

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And then you realize like,

that could have been it.

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Mm-hmm.

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And like, so what was the point?

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And that really started

the process of, what is it?

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I wanna live each day that if I get

hit by a truck, I wanna be happy

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with what what I did that day.

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And really had a process of that

and was back in the system, but

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really wanted to get out of it.

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I mean, especially because COVID

trying to figure out my next steps.

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And then obviously that's when the

ex parte thing happened, uh, with

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the TikTok judge and the domestic

violence victim I was representing.

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And so that was sort of, the beginning

of the end, you know, for me.

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And some of the judges try to

utilize that to say certain things.

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You know, Denise Brown actually

put it in a court order.

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Um, put what she put that I had suffered

a traumatic brain injury in a court order.

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Just as a dig.

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And that was the case with

the dome domestic violence as

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Hugh: a court order, not in your

personal case, but No, you were,

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were you were an attorney, attorney.

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Attorney.

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Yeah.

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After

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Christine: she'd ex parte me, I

filed a motion for her to recuse.

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No, most people don't know that

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Hugh: personal details of an attorney

being put into a court order is

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Christine: oh, beyond inappropriate.

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Wow.

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I actually did, and my poor client,

after everything that they had been

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through with this notion of just the

sheer incompetence that was family court

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and, and going and seeking protection,

and again, I don't wanna get into

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the specifics of that client's case

until I have their full permission.

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But it's all a matter of public record.

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But that was, I mean, the level of

vindictiveness from this judge, and

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00:09:43,203 --> 00:09:47,013

obviously I filed the appropriate

motion, it was sent to a different

235

00:09:47,013 --> 00:09:50,613

judge, and of course the judge struck

all of that nonsense from the record

236

00:09:50,613 --> 00:09:56,133

because just blatantly, I mean,

that's like fourth grade level.

237

00:09:56,903 --> 00:09:59,093

Mean girl type stuff, but I digress.

238

00:09:59,173 --> 00:10:04,243

But these judges are going to utilize

that they already have utilized my car

239

00:10:04,243 --> 00:10:09,213

accident to say that I'm not right,

or that it has affected my ability.

240

00:10:09,213 --> 00:10:12,393

And you know, like I say, jokingly, like

two things can be true at the same time.

241

00:10:12,603 --> 00:10:14,613

I can be crazy and y'all

are bad at your job,

242

00:10:15,613 --> 00:10:15,973

you know?

243

00:10:15,973 --> 00:10:17,293

I mean, what do you and I do?

244

00:10:17,353 --> 00:10:20,443

Every anybody out there that's

listening, like after this, I, I got

245

00:10:20,443 --> 00:10:22,663

hit in 2019 and it was a struggle.

246

00:10:22,693 --> 00:10:23,893

I mean, a significant struggle.

247

00:10:23,893 --> 00:10:27,963

I struggled financially, emotionally,

physically, mentally but I got properly

248

00:10:27,963 --> 00:10:29,403

diagnosed, got proper treatment.

249

00:10:29,403 --> 00:10:32,283

Since that time, I have been on a

nonprofit, the board of a nonprofit.

250

00:10:32,283 --> 00:10:33,273

I have run for judge.

251

00:10:33,513 --> 00:10:36,983

I have bought a house, I have,

rented out a realty company.

252

00:10:36,983 --> 00:10:40,703

Like there is not a notion, anyone

listening that it's not gonna be okay.

253

00:10:41,013 --> 00:10:45,363

And that you got this, you know, just

because people wanna exploit, uh.

254

00:10:46,098 --> 00:10:47,958

They are, um, what's the word?

255

00:10:47,958 --> 00:10:48,408

Lazy.

256

00:10:48,408 --> 00:10:51,048

So that's the best way is just

to attack someone personally.

257

00:10:51,528 --> 00:10:54,888

And, and also, uh, some of them that

are attacking me personally, they

258

00:10:54,888 --> 00:10:58,938

had my yard sign up when I ran for

judge in their yard after my accident.

259

00:11:00,168 --> 00:11:03,948

So that puts things in perspective

for how, uh, how much they thought

260

00:11:03,948 --> 00:11:04,938

it affected me at the time.

261

00:11:05,328 --> 00:11:05,568

Hugh: Yeah.

262

00:11:05,568 --> 00:11:07,158

I've, I've not had that experience.

263

00:11:07,158 --> 00:11:11,478

I, my experiences were

never personal to me.

264

00:11:11,568 --> 00:11:13,608

They were personally disturbing to me.

265

00:11:13,668 --> 00:11:20,268

I think, um, were, some of my experiences

in court were a, a large factor in

266

00:11:20,268 --> 00:11:26,478

being on anxiety medicine and, and, and

being unwell in my practice is because

267

00:11:27,048 --> 00:11:33,548

a family law practice is rather unique

in that you just get so involved in

268

00:11:33,548 --> 00:11:36,128

people's lives, especially when you're

dealing with kids issues that even,

269

00:11:36,548 --> 00:11:39,968

even kids you've never met, you are.

270

00:11:40,523 --> 00:11:43,133

It's like you're defending

your own child sometimes.

271

00:11:43,133 --> 00:11:43,134

Mm-hmm.

272

00:11:43,223 --> 00:11:46,733

And especially when you know you're

on the side of the person that's

273

00:11:46,733 --> 00:11:49,943

doing everything right and, and

really cares for the, for the child.

274

00:11:49,943 --> 00:11:56,483

And to see kids ripped, ripped away

at a moment's notice at a hearing that

275

00:11:56,483 --> 00:11:57,863

you'll never see this child again.

276

00:11:57,863 --> 00:12:01,523

And, you know, to this day, years

later, have never seen the child again

277

00:12:01,523 --> 00:12:05,483

when that's the only person who had

raised the child from, from birth.

278

00:12:05,483 --> 00:12:09,893

Just because you know, frankly,

maybe a judge is just in a bad mood

279

00:12:09,893 --> 00:12:13,433

or doesn't like, you know, that you

filed something in another court

280

00:12:13,503 --> 00:12:17,163

just because it had been sitting for

six months inactive in his or hers.

281

00:12:17,223 --> 00:12:17,493

Yeah.

282

00:12:17,553 --> 00:12:21,603

Hugh: I mean, seeing those kinds

of things felt very personal.

283

00:12:21,603 --> 00:12:23,673

I, and I think that

was because I had kids.

284

00:12:23,673 --> 00:12:26,133

But, but again, that's

very different than having.

285

00:12:26,883 --> 00:12:29,913

The personal experience that

you have and, and your personal

286

00:12:29,913 --> 00:12:31,713

details coming into pleadings.

287

00:12:31,713 --> 00:12:31,983

But

288

00:12:32,503 --> 00:12:35,533

Christine: well the personal thing to

me really is just more the, realizing

289

00:12:35,533 --> 00:12:37,723

the ineffectiveness of a system.

290

00:12:37,843 --> 00:12:38,023

Hugh: Yeah.

291

00:12:38,263 --> 00:12:38,803

Christine: You know what I mean?

292

00:12:38,803 --> 00:12:43,813

Like, you realize, okay, 'cause she did

this to me, and then you think, oh my

293

00:12:43,813 --> 00:12:46,033

gosh, imagine what she's doing to people.

294

00:12:46,453 --> 00:12:49,663

That don't have law license, that

are pro se or that can't defend

295

00:12:49,663 --> 00:12:54,223

themself all in a matter to have

more of like political power.

296

00:12:54,553 --> 00:12:57,433

Um, but I do think you touched

on like anxiety medication.

297

00:12:57,433 --> 00:12:57,973

I don't know.

298

00:12:58,093 --> 00:13:03,573

There is a lot of trauma and mental health

issues within the family law profession.

299

00:13:03,843 --> 00:13:03,933

Sure.

300

00:13:04,173 --> 00:13:07,083

Christine: You know, I mean, hon

I'm on honestly healthier now than

301

00:13:07,083 --> 00:13:08,043

I was when I got hit by a car.

302

00:13:08,043 --> 00:13:10,923

I was on anxiety medication,

um, when I got hit.

303

00:13:10,923 --> 00:13:15,843

And my doctor believes that that had

an effect on, you know, my, my brain at

304

00:13:15,843 --> 00:13:17,583

the time because it does mess with it.

305

00:13:17,583 --> 00:13:20,883

So I would say my brain's probably

healthier today than it was before.

306

00:13:20,883 --> 00:13:21,003

I'm

307

00:13:21,003 --> 00:13:23,523

Hugh: a lot healthier than

when I, when I practiced.

308

00:13:23,523 --> 00:13:26,823

But I think, you know, the, the,

when you say there's a lot of trauma

309

00:13:26,823 --> 00:13:29,373

in, in family law, I mean, I think

there's, there are different types.

310

00:13:29,433 --> 00:13:32,223

Uh, I think on the one hand you've

got people that go into family law

311

00:13:32,223 --> 00:13:33,813

because they've experienced mm-hmm.

312

00:13:34,623 --> 00:13:39,783

Really bad situations in their families or

when they were a child and they want to.

313

00:13:40,668 --> 00:13:43,608

Be an advocate and they want to

fight for, you know, fight within

314

00:13:43,608 --> 00:13:46,218

a system that actually helps

resolve some of those things.

315

00:13:46,218 --> 00:13:49,278

Or at least that's why they get

into it, thinking that it does.

316

00:13:49,548 --> 00:13:54,948

You also have people that are traumatized

by the system once they get into it.

317

00:13:54,953 --> 00:13:59,808

That, that was how I was, I

didn't, I didn't come into this as

318

00:13:59,898 --> 00:14:02,808

a mission because of some trauma

I'd had in my personal life.

319

00:14:02,808 --> 00:14:02,898

Mm-hmm.

320

00:14:03,138 --> 00:14:04,128

It wasn't a personal mission.

321

00:14:04,128 --> 00:14:06,058

It was a business decision.

322

00:14:06,058 --> 00:14:08,398

I liked being in court and

family law puts you in court.

323

00:14:08,403 --> 00:14:08,523

Mm-hmm.

324

00:14:08,603 --> 00:14:08,883

A lot more.

325

00:14:09,028 --> 00:14:12,418

And I did, I didn't, I didn't have

that personal connection to it at

326

00:14:12,418 --> 00:14:17,278

all until I had my own kids and my

practice changed greatly when everybody

327

00:14:17,278 --> 00:14:19,858

that came in and talked about their

kids, I just saw it differently.

328

00:14:19,858 --> 00:14:22,048

It wasn't like just another

thing we're fighting over.

329

00:14:22,048 --> 00:14:28,288

I got it as a parent and that that

changed, but I, you know, I mine.

330

00:14:29,263 --> 00:14:32,563

To the extent there was any personal

trauma, it was just feeling like something

331

00:14:32,563 --> 00:14:37,063

that I had believed in, that I had

obviously naively come into thinking, this

332

00:14:37,063 --> 00:14:39,043

is a court of law, this is how it works.

333

00:14:39,043 --> 00:14:39,943

There are rules.

334

00:14:40,033 --> 00:14:40,093

Yeah.

335

00:14:40,093 --> 00:14:41,563

Attorneys fight by the rules.

336

00:14:41,563 --> 00:14:44,773

We're gonna do everything in our

power to win for our client and do

337

00:14:44,773 --> 00:14:46,843

what's right, but within the rules.

338

00:14:46,843 --> 00:14:46,844

Mm-hmm.

339

00:14:47,023 --> 00:14:51,883

And then you come in and just being

told sometimes blatantly from the

340

00:14:51,883 --> 00:14:54,553

bitch, oh, I don't enforce that rule

in my courtroom, or, or I don't care

341

00:14:54,553 --> 00:14:55,513

Christine: what the case law says.

342

00:14:55,573 --> 00:14:55,903

Hugh: Yeah.

343

00:14:55,903 --> 00:14:57,553

Or just, that's fine.

344

00:14:57,553 --> 00:14:58,423

Take me upstairs.

345

00:14:58,633 --> 00:15:00,043

Basically meaning appeal me.

346

00:15:00,523 --> 00:15:00,613

Mm-hmm.

347

00:15:00,853 --> 00:15:00,856

I don't care.

348

00:15:00,888 --> 00:15:07,003

And, and just regularly being told that it

just sort of demeaned it, it felt like I

349

00:15:07,003 --> 00:15:13,003

was practicing somewhere other than a real

court or in a, in a proper profession.

350

00:15:13,003 --> 00:15:16,273

Like, and, and, and I think that to

a certain extent, at least as far as

351

00:15:16,273 --> 00:15:20,893

family law goes, 'cause that's, that's

where I made my, my the most, the,

352

00:15:20,893 --> 00:15:23,713

the bulk of the years of my career.

353

00:15:23,833 --> 00:15:26,683

Starting off in international

environmental law, but mainly worked

354

00:15:26,683 --> 00:15:28,453

as a family lawyer for 20 years.

355

00:15:30,403 --> 00:15:34,123

I got the feeling that other people sort

of thought that way about family court.

356

00:15:34,123 --> 00:15:34,363

Oh.

357

00:15:34,363 --> 00:15:37,813

It's just, it's not this area where

there, there are rules and it's

358

00:15:37,813 --> 00:15:38,923

just different in family court.

359

00:15:38,923 --> 00:15:40,003

Oh, I don't touch family court.

360

00:15:40,003 --> 00:15:41,383

You hear from so many other attorneys.

361

00:15:41,383 --> 00:15:43,153

I'll go to circuit court, I'll

go over to district court.

362

00:15:43,153 --> 00:15:43,213

Yeah.

363

00:15:43,453 --> 00:15:47,623

They may be a general practitioner doing

DUIs in the morning, probate in the

364

00:15:47,623 --> 00:15:51,553

afternoon, going over there and doing

a contract dispute in circuit court.

365

00:15:51,553 --> 00:15:53,743

And those are all very different things.

366

00:15:53,893 --> 00:15:56,353

But those same people will often

say, oh, I don't touch family court.

367

00:15:56,353 --> 00:15:57,433

That's just a different animal.

368

00:15:57,553 --> 00:15:58,633

Christine: It is its own animal.

369

00:15:58,633 --> 00:16:02,563

And I mean I, and how I stumbled upon it,

you know, we talked about last time and

370

00:16:02,563 --> 00:16:05,773

I did love it for quite some time, but

I do think we have the biggest burnout.

371

00:16:06,013 --> 00:16:07,063

I also think,

372

00:16:07,693 --> 00:16:08,143

Hugh: oh no doubt

373

00:16:08,143 --> 00:16:08,713

Christine: to explain.

374

00:16:08,713 --> 00:16:12,433

Like there's a few things that you

said today that I know from like the

375

00:16:12,433 --> 00:16:17,833

community that they think that attorneys

really, are corrupt with the judges.

376

00:16:17,923 --> 00:16:21,253

And I think what they don't understand,

and I don't mean to say this like in a

377

00:16:21,253 --> 00:16:24,073

condescending way, but what people on the

outside don't see, like you mentioned,

378

00:16:24,073 --> 00:16:28,063

like, hey, the judge is, you're waiting

on an order and so you're filing a

379

00:16:28,063 --> 00:16:29,653

motion, Hey judge, we need this order.

380

00:16:29,953 --> 00:16:32,833

And people don't understand why

we don't do that every week.

381

00:16:32,833 --> 00:16:37,333

And it's because we know the judge has

the power via that order to destroy them.

382

00:16:37,663 --> 00:16:38,263

Um, we're

383

00:16:38,263 --> 00:16:39,793

Hugh: protecting our

client by not doing it.

384

00:16:39,793 --> 00:16:39,883

Yes.

385

00:16:39,883 --> 00:16:42,853

But we're also taking the blame because

we don't seem that we're being proactive.

386

00:16:42,883 --> 00:16:42,943

Yeah.

387

00:16:42,943 --> 00:16:45,253

And it's, we've seen how vindictive.

388

00:16:46,048 --> 00:16:46,558

Punitive.

389

00:16:46,558 --> 00:16:48,688

The judges can be when you

point those things out.

390

00:16:48,693 --> 00:16:49,303

And retaliatory.

391

00:16:49,303 --> 00:16:49,423

Yeah.

392

00:16:49,423 --> 00:16:49,425

And retaliatory.

393

00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:49,558

Yeah.

394

00:16:49,558 --> 00:16:52,738

And that's exactly right.

395

00:16:52,798 --> 00:16:54,838

Christine: And like, I mean, you'll

tell judge, Hey Judge, you can't

396

00:16:54,838 --> 00:16:56,218

ex parte, you have to recuse.

397

00:16:56,218 --> 00:16:58,978

And it's like, Hey, you had a

traumatic brain injury a year ago.

398

00:16:59,038 --> 00:17:01,348

I mean, that's the result that

you're gonna get in a public setting.

399

00:17:01,768 --> 00:17:02,068

You know?

400

00:17:02,068 --> 00:17:03,478

I mean, that's what Denise Brown did.

401

00:17:03,568 --> 00:17:05,548

And so imagine if you're a litigant.

402

00:17:05,798 --> 00:17:10,988

And I do think, obviously we'd be naive

to think or to say that a hundred percent

403

00:17:10,988 --> 00:17:13,598

of attorneys are on the up are legit.

404

00:17:13,657 --> 00:17:14,318

That's insane.

405

00:17:14,318 --> 00:17:15,127

We don't believe it.

406

00:17:15,188 --> 00:17:15,877

I don't believe it.

407

00:17:15,877 --> 00:17:17,798

I've seen attorneys do

things that I would never do.

408

00:17:17,798 --> 00:17:18,758

I've seen things we, we know who

409

00:17:18,758 --> 00:17:18,878

Hugh: they are.

410

00:17:18,884 --> 00:17:21,728

The ones that you, you see from

motion hour would just walk in the

411

00:17:21,728 --> 00:17:25,088

back at the beginning of motion

hour, then come back out and sit

412

00:17:25,088 --> 00:17:26,108

down with the rest of the attorneys.

413

00:17:26,108 --> 00:17:28,718

You know, they just walked in the back

and talked to the judge and their buddies.

414

00:17:28,723 --> 00:17:28,853

Yeah.

415

00:17:28,853 --> 00:17:28,973

And just.

416

00:17:30,128 --> 00:17:30,338

Christine: Yeah.

417

00:17:30,338 --> 00:17:30,548

Oh.

418

00:17:30,548 --> 00:17:32,108

And I mean, that happens.

419

00:17:32,378 --> 00:17:37,138

That happens like, but I don't think the

large percentage of attorneys are bad.

420

00:17:37,168 --> 00:17:37,648

I really don't.

421

00:17:37,648 --> 00:17:39,298

Even the ones I don't like personally.

422

00:17:39,628 --> 00:17:39,808

Hugh: Yeah.

423

00:17:40,108 --> 00:17:42,838

And, you know, and there are plenty

of lazy practitioners or people that

424

00:17:42,838 --> 00:17:47,278

just don't know the rules, but some

of that is reinforced by the system.

425

00:17:47,283 --> 00:17:47,363

Mm-hmm.

426

00:17:47,678 --> 00:17:51,368

I have practiced in family courts

in other states, pro hac, viche

427

00:17:51,368 --> 00:17:52,294

or, you know, what's that mean?

428

00:17:52,328 --> 00:17:55,958

Other states where I bar Oh, where,

where they, where the courts will let you

429

00:17:55,958 --> 00:17:58,148

practice on a specific case by case basis.

430

00:17:58,148 --> 00:18:01,688

You file, um, a request, you get the

backing of an attorney that's barred

431

00:18:01,688 --> 00:18:04,718

in that state and you say, I have an

interest in practicing within this.

432

00:18:04,718 --> 00:18:06,908

I will follow the rules

of, you know, Florida.

433

00:18:06,913 --> 00:18:07,933

And it's only for one case.

434

00:18:08,083 --> 00:18:08,373

Yeah.

435

00:18:08,393 --> 00:18:12,068

Or you, you can practice for that case

as long as it takes your, your part of

436

00:18:12,068 --> 00:18:14,228

that case, but it'll be in family court.

437

00:18:14,288 --> 00:18:20,078

And I remember a specific hearing in

Florida and I thought the judge was

438

00:18:20,078 --> 00:18:22,748

just absolutely nasty to everyone.

439

00:18:23,048 --> 00:18:23,408

But.

440

00:18:23,948 --> 00:18:29,618

The way she was nasty was just absolutely

busting everybody's balls about not,

441

00:18:29,768 --> 00:18:33,968

if you made a legal argument, you had

to cite not only the case, but the

442

00:18:33,968 --> 00:18:36,158

page where that they could find that.

443

00:18:36,518 --> 00:18:39,368

And you had to have filed

something or have a copy.

444

00:18:39,578 --> 00:18:43,118

Now, of course, if someone makes

an argument and you're responding

445

00:18:43,118 --> 00:18:45,488

and you didn't have any idea they

were gonna make that argument, you

446

00:18:45,488 --> 00:18:46,928

would think you'd get some grace.

447

00:18:46,928 --> 00:18:49,088

But it was just like,

where can I find that?

448

00:18:49,118 --> 00:18:49,568

No, no, no.

449

00:18:49,568 --> 00:18:50,978

I don't wanna know generally about it.

450

00:18:51,008 --> 00:18:51,788

Where do I find that?

451

00:18:51,788 --> 00:18:53,288

I'm looking at the case

now, where do I find it?

452

00:18:53,288 --> 00:18:57,098

And just the rules were

so absolutely strict.

453

00:18:57,098 --> 00:19:01,598

And they treated it, I mean, the

clients were yelling at one another.

454

00:19:01,598 --> 00:19:02,948

I mean, they were, it was emotional.

455

00:19:02,948 --> 00:19:04,628

It was all the things that family law is.

456

00:19:04,628 --> 00:19:06,428

Yeah, it makes you different

from other court settings.

457

00:19:07,028 --> 00:19:09,338

But man, it was a court of law.

458

00:19:09,398 --> 00:19:11,768

And law mattered and rules mattered.

459

00:19:11,768 --> 00:19:18,098

And I remember in that case the result,

if you were not an attorney, didn't

460

00:19:18,098 --> 00:19:21,488

understand why it happened that way,

you would see completely unjust.

461

00:19:21,493 --> 00:19:21,733

Mm-hmm.

462

00:19:23,183 --> 00:19:27,443

I still don't agree with it because I'm,

I'm biased toward my, our client, but

463

00:19:27,443 --> 00:19:31,643

it was a plausible result and it was the

result of rules and whether this was met

464

00:19:31,643 --> 00:19:33,443

or that was met and what the rule said.

465

00:19:33,743 --> 00:19:38,603

And, you know, it's sort of,

what's, what's the old saying?

466

00:19:38,603 --> 00:19:42,623

It's better for a hundred, uh, guilty men

to go free than an innocent man to be,

467

00:19:42,623 --> 00:19:44,183

or, you know, what, whatever that Yeah.

468

00:19:44,183 --> 00:19:45,953

That, that saying is, you kind of think

469

00:19:47,138 --> 00:19:49,913

Christine: it, it just, at least it

was a court of law and at least it was,

470

00:19:49,913 --> 00:19:51,918

there were, was a procedure the wrong

471

00:19:51,978 --> 00:19:56,363

Hugh: per the wrong person may win

and, and people may still be hurt

472

00:19:56,363 --> 00:20:01,043

by it, but I like, I mean, the kids,

the parent who doesn't have the kids'

473

00:20:01,043 --> 00:20:05,213

best interest at heart may win because

they present better, or deadlines are

474

00:20:05,213 --> 00:20:07,073

met or someone does discovery better.

475

00:20:07,073 --> 00:20:08,273

Someone pays a better attorney.

476

00:20:09,023 --> 00:20:09,653

That happens.

477

00:20:09,653 --> 00:20:14,273

But I still believe that the system

being consistent and having rules will

478

00:20:14,333 --> 00:20:18,558

ultimately get much better results

overall than the chaos we have now

479

00:20:18,558 --> 00:20:22,103

on the average than something that

is so completely unpredictable.

480

00:20:22,508 --> 00:20:28,718

That basically trains attorneys to

just do all kinds of things that

481

00:20:28,718 --> 00:20:32,678

you would never see in, in any

other court or any other setting.

482

00:20:32,678 --> 00:20:32,768

Mm-hmm.

483

00:20:33,008 --> 00:20:36,728

And I think last time we talked, uh,

like talked about an attorney that when

484

00:20:36,728 --> 00:20:39,338

I was trying to get a damning piece

of evidence in front of his client,

485

00:20:39,638 --> 00:20:42,188

the attorney would just swat it out

my hand and the papers would fly.

486

00:20:42,188 --> 00:20:44,858

I not really that, and I just,

we got stared at by the judge.

487

00:20:44,858 --> 00:20:46,208

I'd look up waiting for

her to do something.

488

00:20:46,208 --> 00:20:48,308

She didn't do it, grabbed another set.

489

00:20:48,308 --> 00:20:49,328

'cause I had three sets.

490

00:20:49,508 --> 00:20:51,788

Uh, you know, one was for the

judge, one was for my client, one

491

00:20:51,788 --> 00:20:53,048

was to give to the opposing side.

492

00:20:53,108 --> 00:20:55,328

And I go through all three

and he swats 'em all down.

493

00:20:55,328 --> 00:20:57,278

And there's just piles of

papers around just so I can't

494

00:20:57,278 --> 00:20:58,388

ask him questions about it.

495

00:20:58,748 --> 00:21:02,618

And, you know, no direction

to have your client answer the

496

00:21:02,618 --> 00:21:04,778

que It was just absolute chaos.

497

00:21:05,048 --> 00:21:08,018

And I, I just remember that day being

impactful to me, that's just like,

498

00:21:08,018 --> 00:21:12,758

no matter how well I'm prepared and

how I, I'm not gonna kick and scream.

499

00:21:12,758 --> 00:21:14,648

I'm gonna walk in there,

I'm gonna present the facts.

500

00:21:14,648 --> 00:21:15,638

I'm gonna follow the rules.

501

00:21:16,193 --> 00:21:16,673

Didn't matter.

502

00:21:16,673 --> 00:21:17,183

Doesn't matter.

503

00:21:17,483 --> 00:21:19,613

Christine: And your client,

that's the flip side of it too.

504

00:21:19,613 --> 00:21:24,653

Then you have to go and tell your client,

Hey, you just paid me $2,000 for today.

505

00:21:24,653 --> 00:21:26,333

$2,500 for prep.

506

00:21:26,543 --> 00:21:28,403

You know, I mean, et cetera, et cetera.

507

00:21:28,403 --> 00:21:28,703

That was every

508

00:21:28,703 --> 00:21:29,753

Hugh: $10,000 day.

509

00:21:30,053 --> 00:21:30,173

Yeah.

510

00:21:30,173 --> 00:21:34,013

But I, I continued representing

her for years after that.

511

00:21:34,013 --> 00:21:37,823

Uh, and I don't know that we ever went

back in front of the judge on anything.

512

00:21:37,823 --> 00:21:38,273

Majors did.

513

00:21:38,273 --> 00:21:38,543

She learned.

514

00:21:38,543 --> 00:21:40,133

We got, we got things done.

515

00:21:40,193 --> 00:21:41,063

Christine: Oh, you wanna

hear a funny story?

516

00:21:41,663 --> 00:21:43,493

I had a child support hearing one time.

517

00:21:43,493 --> 00:21:45,953

It was like, so basic and obvious.

518

00:21:46,293 --> 00:21:47,493

It's in front of a prior judge.

519

00:21:47,493 --> 00:21:51,933

I won't say their name, but my client

literally pushed the like silent button

520

00:21:52,203 --> 00:21:53,763

and said like, is this real life?

521

00:21:54,573 --> 00:21:55,413

Are we in a movie?

522

00:21:55,593 --> 00:21:59,793

Because it was just like, somehow we

were talking about he was owed child

523

00:21:59,793 --> 00:22:04,203

support and it got to where the 14

or 15 or 16-year-old child was maybe

524

00:22:04,203 --> 00:22:08,523

smoking marijuana allegedly, which was

not even remotely before the court.

525

00:22:08,703 --> 00:22:09,968

I actually don't, and not relevant to

526

00:22:09,968 --> 00:22:11,568

Hugh: child support in

any way, shape or form.

527

00:22:12,333 --> 00:22:12,589

Christine: And none.

528

00:22:12,594 --> 00:22:15,873

And also like it was allegations

that had happened, like when it was

529

00:22:15,873 --> 00:22:17,583

under a different parenting schedule.

530

00:22:17,583 --> 00:22:19,023

It was so bizarre.

531

00:22:19,113 --> 00:22:21,543

And he was one of my favorite,

he's one of my first clients ever.

532

00:22:21,763 --> 00:22:24,253

And I remember him being like,

I'll never go back in there.

533

00:22:24,253 --> 00:22:25,603

Like, I'm gonna listen to you forever.

534

00:22:25,603 --> 00:22:28,093

And I'm like, I told you, you don't

want these people making decisions.

535

00:22:28,493 --> 00:22:30,293

And that doesn't happen.

536

00:22:30,293 --> 00:22:34,103

It d in my experience and I'm gonna

give like, I'm gonna get, well, I

537

00:22:34,103 --> 00:22:36,173

don't know, maybe I'll wait to give

a shout out to one of the judges.

538

00:22:36,173 --> 00:22:37,103

I wanna see how much feedback.

539

00:22:37,103 --> 00:22:40,073

'cause I do know that, that this judge

in particular will get negative feedback.

540

00:22:40,373 --> 00:22:42,863

But in my experience was always

great, was always great to me,

541

00:22:42,863 --> 00:22:44,063

was always followed the law.

542

00:22:44,373 --> 00:22:45,423

Have you ever been held in contempt?

543

00:22:46,923 --> 00:22:51,123

Hugh: I have been told multiple

times that if I said another word,

544

00:22:51,183 --> 00:22:54,393

I would be in the room next door,

which is the holding chamber.

545

00:22:54,633 --> 00:22:58,653

And especially like over in, in, in

a lot of the counties, the courtrooms

546

00:22:58,653 --> 00:23:02,913

are all built the same to where even if

it's being used as a family court room,

547

00:23:03,153 --> 00:23:08,343

they're used to having inmates put in a

waiting room right outside the courtroom

548

00:23:08,343 --> 00:23:09,723

and then brought in by the deputy.

549

00:23:09,723 --> 00:23:11,703

So they will have this room holding cell.

550

00:23:11,703 --> 00:23:12,873

Yeah, holding cell

basically is what it is.

551

00:23:13,173 --> 00:23:14,133

I have been told that.

552

00:23:14,168 --> 00:23:15,028

Who are, you say?

553

00:23:15,028 --> 00:23:16,863

I actually, no, I'm trying to think.

554

00:23:18,303 --> 00:23:19,323

Oh man.

555

00:23:19,503 --> 00:23:22,653

Uh, judge Garvey, Kevin Garvey

did it one time and I don't know

556

00:23:22,683 --> 00:23:23,883

that he would've really done it.

557

00:23:23,883 --> 00:23:26,703

He outside of court was

one of my favorites.

558

00:23:26,703 --> 00:23:28,713

'cause he was a prankster

and he would do things.

559

00:23:28,713 --> 00:23:28,863

Yeah, I know.

560

00:23:28,863 --> 00:23:33,603

And he was, but man, I, I was always

afraid, afraid to be in front of him.

561

00:23:33,603 --> 00:23:35,673

But I remember him, he told

me that a couple times.

562

00:23:36,093 --> 00:23:41,343

I have been warned about it in a way

that I took as a, just a warning, not

563

00:23:41,343 --> 00:23:43,743

that I was, you know, close to it.

564

00:23:43,743 --> 00:23:47,643

I think that was in Mead County

early on and in front of a judge who

565

00:23:47,643 --> 00:23:48,993

was known for Lock Judge Miller up.

566

00:23:49,053 --> 00:23:49,953

No judge.

567

00:23:50,013 --> 00:23:50,793

Uh, I loved

568

00:23:50,883 --> 00:23:51,783

Christine: he rest in peace.

569

00:23:51,788 --> 00:23:52,028

I loved him.

570

00:23:52,083 --> 00:23:52,353

What was her

571

00:23:52,353 --> 00:23:52,683

Hugh: name?

572

00:23:53,193 --> 00:23:53,883

Embry.

573

00:23:54,573 --> 00:23:54,933

Christine: Ah, maybe

574

00:23:55,083 --> 00:23:58,713

Hugh: she, she had, uh, so two of

my colleagues had been arrested and

575

00:23:58,713 --> 00:24:02,433

whenever they went down there, uh, had

been arrested for contempt in her court.

576

00:24:02,643 --> 00:24:05,853

And they, they just had this thing,

if you were going down there, you told

577

00:24:05,853 --> 00:24:09,303

someone and you made sure they had access

to money so they could get you out.

578

00:24:09,633 --> 00:24:12,243

And I remember, uh, Steve Romines,

I think had been locked up down

579

00:24:12,243 --> 00:24:15,003

there for trying to correct the

judge, the same judge on something.

580

00:24:15,003 --> 00:24:15,603

And I think, uh, what a

581

00:24:15,603 --> 00:24:16,383

Christine: fabulous litigator

582

00:24:16,443 --> 00:24:20,853

Hugh: maybe, uh, pat Ren told me a similar

story, so I remember when I was going

583

00:24:20,853 --> 00:24:22,533

down there like that just shocked me.

584

00:24:22,533 --> 00:24:24,723

And he was like, oh, no,

that's a special case.

585

00:24:24,723 --> 00:24:27,363

They're not, you know, you're not

gonna encounter that in other places.

586

00:24:27,363 --> 00:24:29,883

That judge is just known

for that kind of stuff.

587

00:24:29,883 --> 00:24:31,188

Yeah, I, I've never been

threaten with contempt.

588

00:24:31,563 --> 00:24:31,623

Uh,

589

00:24:32,403 --> 00:24:34,503

Christine: there was a time I

should have been held in contempt.

590

00:24:34,503 --> 00:24:36,303

It was right before I

quit public defending.

591

00:24:36,723 --> 00:24:41,683

Um, right after that SA trial there was

a prosecutor, we'd made a deal and the

592

00:24:41,683 --> 00:24:43,003

judge was like, I'm not taking this deal.

593

00:24:43,003 --> 00:24:45,973

It was like she was probably a

PFO and, uh, should have been more

594

00:24:45,973 --> 00:24:47,593

time, but we got a misdemeanor plea.

595

00:24:47,863 --> 00:24:51,463

And the prosecutor was like, I'll tell

you, judge, why we made this deal,

596

00:24:51,463 --> 00:24:52,783

but I don't wanna tell Christine.

597

00:24:53,053 --> 00:24:54,553

And I was like, is this real life?

598

00:24:54,583 --> 00:24:55,903

Like in the middle of motion hour?

599

00:24:56,353 --> 00:24:58,753

And like the judge looked at

the prosecutor like, you idiot.

600

00:24:58,753 --> 00:24:59,983

You, you know?

601

00:24:59,983 --> 00:25:01,693

And I was like, no,

seriously, is this real life?

602

00:25:01,933 --> 00:25:04,453

And like everyone was just like

ignoring me, kind of, you know?

603

00:25:04,453 --> 00:25:06,673

And then I was like, is this real life?

604

00:25:06,673 --> 00:25:09,613

Like, I was just at my point

and the judge took the police,

605

00:25:09,613 --> 00:25:10,753

so it worked for my client.

606

00:25:10,973 --> 00:25:14,483

Hugh: But I mean, still, what, what

can a judge, I mean, what, what can

607

00:25:14,483 --> 00:25:17,483

you say in that point where it is

just obvious what just happened?

608

00:25:17,513 --> 00:25:18,803

Christine: Well, also it could be, I mean.

609

00:25:20,138 --> 00:25:23,048

It could mean a plethora of things

for my client as far as like, what

610

00:25:23,048 --> 00:25:24,368

does that mean from the community.

611

00:25:24,368 --> 00:25:28,898

Seeing that on the record as far as like,

you know, this prosecutor was an idiot,

612

00:25:29,198 --> 00:25:33,788

um, but like insinuating that potentially

that person was a confidential informant,

613

00:25:33,788 --> 00:25:35,108

which certainly was not the case.

614

00:25:35,108 --> 00:25:38,438

I represented them, but just the

way that, first off, it's ex parte.

615

00:25:38,438 --> 00:25:39,368

Obviously you can't do it.

616

00:25:39,398 --> 00:25:42,638

Like that's basic, basic, basic, but

just the notion of what you explain

617

00:25:42,638 --> 00:25:43,028

Hugh: ex parte.

618

00:25:43,653 --> 00:25:48,423

Christine: Ex parte is the judge

cannot talk to anybody on the

619

00:25:48,423 --> 00:25:50,313

case without everybody present.

620

00:25:50,523 --> 00:25:52,263

And by that I mean parties.

621

00:25:52,263 --> 00:25:52,398

Parties and,

622

00:25:52,618 --> 00:25:53,318

Hugh: and or attorneys.

623

00:25:53,323 --> 00:25:53,433

Yeah.

624

00:25:53,433 --> 00:25:53,583

So

625

00:25:53,583 --> 00:25:55,053

Christine: like everybody

present in the case.

626

00:25:55,053 --> 00:25:58,083

So like if you're getting a divorce

and there's mom and dad are getting a

627

00:25:58,083 --> 00:26:03,483

divorce, the judge has can't talk to mom's

attorney without dad's attorney if they're

628

00:26:03,483 --> 00:26:05,673

pro se can't talk to mom without dad.

629

00:26:05,953 --> 00:26:10,423

Very, very, very minimal exceptions

as far as like scheduling details.

630

00:26:10,423 --> 00:26:10,513

Sure.

631

00:26:10,543 --> 00:26:14,083

Or reaching out, Hey, I need an

address so I can send you this order.

632

00:26:14,083 --> 00:26:14,233

Oh yeah.

633

00:26:14,233 --> 00:26:16,933

That's not, procedural stuff

is not considered ex parte.

634

00:26:16,933 --> 00:26:17,173

You're not

635

00:26:17,178 --> 00:26:18,223

Hugh: discussing the case.

636

00:26:18,223 --> 00:26:18,913

But it has to be the

637

00:26:18,913 --> 00:26:20,893

Christine: merits of the

case, facts of the case.

638

00:26:21,113 --> 00:26:25,373

And this is this is a rule that's

so basic that, you know, Magneto

639

00:26:25,373 --> 00:26:27,863

and my 14-year-old puppies watched

court enough during Zoom court that

640

00:26:27,863 --> 00:26:29,303

he understands what ex parte means.

641

00:26:29,303 --> 00:26:33,413

You know, anyone with a law license that

doesn't understand it should, should

642

00:26:33,413 --> 00:26:34,853

be barred from the practice of law.

643

00:26:35,153 --> 00:26:38,423

But yet I'd say I think it's

happening more than we think.

644

00:26:38,698 --> 00:26:39,278

Hugh: Oh, it happens.

645

00:26:39,598 --> 00:26:40,643

I know that it's happening.

646

00:26:40,648 --> 00:26:40,678

Mm-hmm.

647

00:26:40,758 --> 00:26:41,158

I mean, I've had.

648

00:26:42,448 --> 00:26:47,068

I mean, I've, I've seen it on video

and I, I've had, um, other judges

649

00:26:47,068 --> 00:26:52,468

when I brought the behavior of some

judges to other judges, you know, the

650

00:26:52,468 --> 00:26:56,248

reaction is, is always frustration.

651

00:26:56,248 --> 00:26:56,338

Mm-hmm.

652

00:26:56,578 --> 00:26:59,128

Being very upset that it's

happening, but it's never shock.

653

00:26:59,488 --> 00:27:02,428

And it's sort of, you know, it's,

it's always clear to me like,

654

00:27:02,458 --> 00:27:05,608

oh yeah, this isn't, they know

that this isn't an ongoing issue.

655

00:27:05,708 --> 00:27:05,888

Ugh.

656

00:27:06,068 --> 00:27:09,998

I just, I just remembered, I, I

have at one time been so sure I

657

00:27:09,998 --> 00:27:12,848

was going to be held in contempt

because I was not going to back off.

658

00:27:12,848 --> 00:27:14,828

I was not gonna let a hearing happen.

659

00:27:14,828 --> 00:27:19,448

And it was a case where, and this has

happened a whole bunch to me in the last

660

00:27:19,448 --> 00:27:24,338

two, three years of my career, where

I would be intervening in a case clear

661

00:27:24,888 --> 00:27:29,628

grounds for intervention necessary,

uh, party for intervention and.

662

00:27:30,828 --> 00:27:33,678

Judge, you know, a judge will say,

well, that was filed after we had

663

00:27:33,678 --> 00:27:36,378

already scheduled this hearing, so

we're gonna have the f final hearing

664

00:27:36,378 --> 00:27:40,198

on the merits before, and then I'll

consider your motion to intervene.

665

00:27:40,198 --> 00:27:40,558

It's like, you

666

00:27:40,858 --> 00:27:41,753

Christine: can't, that's not how it works.

667

00:27:41,933 --> 00:27:42,153

And

668

00:27:42,153 --> 00:27:43,348

Hugh: it's, the rules are very clear.

669

00:27:43,558 --> 00:27:46,198

But it was one of those things, and

I wasn't gonna let it happen because

670

00:27:46,198 --> 00:27:51,298

it was gonna let them decide where

a child left that lived without my

671

00:27:51,298 --> 00:27:54,868

client, who had raised a child for

two and a half years exclusively.

672

00:27:55,348 --> 00:27:58,708

And which ultimately I ended up losing.

673

00:27:58,708 --> 00:28:02,218

The kid was ripped away from my

client, but I went to court, I

674

00:28:02,218 --> 00:28:04,228

think I had 2,500 bucks in cash.

675

00:28:04,328 --> 00:28:09,578

I expected that if I was held in contempt,

then I could say, okay, what's the purge?

676

00:28:09,578 --> 00:28:12,188

And they would tell me, and I would

just gladly take the stack out, hand

677

00:28:12,188 --> 00:28:15,578

it to 'em and say, best money I've

ever spent, sit back down and continue

678

00:28:15,578 --> 00:28:21,008

being, uh, you know, like arguing,

you know, the correct point Yeah.

679

00:28:21,248 --> 00:28:22,478

Professionally, but that.

680

00:28:22,868 --> 00:28:25,808

I was gonna be held in contempt and I had

more cash so I could be held in contempt

681

00:28:25,808 --> 00:28:27,308

again and just immediately go back.

682

00:28:27,308 --> 00:28:33,038

But I was so sure that I just had a fat

stack of cash in my, in my, uh, jacket.

683

00:28:33,308 --> 00:28:36,218

And unfortunately with the way it

happened, as I showed up and they

684

00:28:36,218 --> 00:28:39,548

said, well, you, uh, because your

intervention hasn't been granted, you

685

00:28:39,548 --> 00:28:42,398

don't represent a party in here and this

hearing's gonna go forward without you.

686

00:28:42,398 --> 00:28:43,118

It's public.

687

00:28:43,538 --> 00:28:45,398

You know, you've, you've

already been involved in this.

688

00:28:45,398 --> 00:28:47,978

You can sit in the back, but you're not

allowed to speak or ask any questions.

689

00:28:47,978 --> 00:28:50,768

And my client and I just had to sit

there and watch them have a whole trial

690

00:28:51,008 --> 00:28:53,108

where the other side put on testimony.

691

00:28:53,108 --> 00:28:55,178

And no, the GAL didn't cross.

692

00:28:55,428 --> 00:28:57,018

Nobody asked any questions.

693

00:28:57,018 --> 00:28:58,128

It was just this perfunctory.

694

00:28:58,128 --> 00:28:58,613

And you went on appeal.

695

00:28:59,313 --> 00:28:59,653

Oh yeah.

696

00:28:59,868 --> 00:29:05,388

One on appeal, but, uh, well on that

one, we are still in the middle.

697

00:29:05,388 --> 00:29:08,958

We recently won an appeal on

an issue of the intervention.

698

00:29:09,248 --> 00:29:13,778

So it is now back down to that judge

again, but the whole thing isn't won yet.

699

00:29:13,808 --> 00:29:14,858

We're getting to go.

700

00:29:15,443 --> 00:29:17,813

Back many years later

and try the same thing.

701

00:29:17,813 --> 00:29:22,013

But at that point, my client still hasn't,

now, hasn't seen the child in many years.

702

00:29:22,043 --> 00:29:24,803

I mean, I don't know that the child

really has a lot of memories over.

703

00:29:24,803 --> 00:29:26,508

I mean, it's, I mean,

it's really devastating.

704

00:29:26,513 --> 00:29:27,683

Really, really devastating.

705

00:29:27,953 --> 00:29:32,423

But I, I was just like, you know what

I, I told my wife what was going on.

706

00:29:32,423 --> 00:29:32,424

Mm-hmm.

707

00:29:32,468 --> 00:29:33,353

So she was ready.

708

00:29:33,353 --> 00:29:36,803

We, she had, um, talked to one of

my, either one of my partners, one

709

00:29:36,803 --> 00:29:39,593

of my colleagues to be ready if

they needed to help get me out.

710

00:29:39,593 --> 00:29:41,093

And it was just like one of

those things, it's like, you're

711

00:29:41,093 --> 00:29:42,293

not talking me out of it.

712

00:29:42,293 --> 00:29:43,763

I'm not going to let this happen.

713

00:29:43,763 --> 00:29:45,443

If there's any way that I can stop it.

714

00:29:45,878 --> 00:29:47,798

By the rules professionally.

715

00:29:48,008 --> 00:29:48,308

Yeah.

716

00:29:48,308 --> 00:29:50,078

If it means I get held

in contempt, so be it.

717

00:29:50,078 --> 00:29:52,058

I'm gonna carry some cash

so I can try to get out.

718

00:29:52,388 --> 00:29:55,868

Christine: I had a family member when

we went down to court, was like, they're

719

00:29:55,868 --> 00:29:57,278

gonna put you in jail one of these days.

720

00:29:57,278 --> 00:29:58,358

And I don't think they will.

721

00:29:58,358 --> 00:30:00,368

That would be insane for me

walking through a courthouse.

722

00:30:00,368 --> 00:30:04,218

But they were like, I got bail money,

you know, and obviously I would never do

723

00:30:04,218 --> 00:30:05,928

anything in inappropriate in a courtroom.

724

00:30:05,928 --> 00:30:07,308

I would never try to cause a scene.

725

00:30:07,308 --> 00:30:07,578

I, I've

726

00:30:07,578 --> 00:30:11,448

Hugh: seen it happen because judges

arguing points on evidence and the

727

00:30:11,448 --> 00:30:14,208

attorney's correct and the judge

is wrong, and they've, they've

728

00:30:14,208 --> 00:30:18,378

just, the judges ruled and the

attorneys, you know, once the rulings

729

00:30:18,378 --> 00:30:19,518

there, you don't argue anymore.

730

00:30:19,518 --> 00:30:23,343

But when it's so blatant, sometimes

you're just being an advocate

731

00:30:23,388 --> 00:30:24,648

and you continue to argue.

732

00:30:24,648 --> 00:30:28,068

So they're continuing to argue

correctly and they get locked up for it.

733

00:30:28,998 --> 00:30:30,468

Christine: The best I've ever seen.

734

00:30:30,468 --> 00:30:35,928

This is on video and this is a great way

to sort of end, um, is I saw, I watched

735

00:30:35,928 --> 00:30:40,728

a video recording, it was just audio at

the time, but the attorney said, the, the

736

00:30:40,728 --> 00:30:42,348

judge kept saying, no, no, no, I've ruled.

737

00:30:42,348 --> 00:30:42,798

I've ruled.

738

00:30:42,798 --> 00:30:46,278

And the attorney said, with all due

respect, your Honor, at this point

739

00:30:46,278 --> 00:30:48,048

I'm speaking to the court of appeals.

740

00:30:48,228 --> 00:30:48,348

Oh yeah.

741

00:30:48,378 --> 00:30:50,120

And then da da da.

742

00:30:50,125 --> 00:30:52,548

And I was like, that is

a great way to say it.

743

00:30:52,578 --> 00:30:56,418

'cause you preservation is such that

it has to be a part of the record.

744

00:30:56,598 --> 00:31:00,378

And yeah, we've got to figure out a

way, and I know we've talked about all

745

00:31:00,378 --> 00:31:03,648

the different kind of segments, but,

um, I've got so many dms, but we've got

746

00:31:03,648 --> 00:31:07,638

to find a way to just kind of give our

legal observation and to sort of assist

747

00:31:07,638 --> 00:31:11,628

some people, not with legal advice

obviously, but just, hey, this is the

748

00:31:11,628 --> 00:31:17,088

steps that will, you know, guarantee, uh,

an outcome that may be helpful to you.

749

00:31:17,178 --> 00:31:17,538

You know?

750

00:31:17,628 --> 00:31:17,898

Hugh: Yeah.

751

00:31:17,898 --> 00:31:20,928

I mean, it's, it's not, not even

guaranteeing any kind of an outcome,

752

00:31:20,928 --> 00:31:22,548

but this, it doesn't foreclose.

753

00:31:22,983 --> 00:31:23,073

Yes.

754

00:31:23,343 --> 00:31:26,973

Future avenues for you to

actually get justice or to get

755

00:31:26,973 --> 00:31:28,203

your case ruled on correctly.

756

00:31:28,203 --> 00:31:33,063

And, and, and, and what, what she's

referring to is there are certain

757

00:31:33,063 --> 00:31:36,903

types of issues that cannot be appealed

if you don't preserve your objection

758

00:31:36,903 --> 00:31:38,733

on the record during the proceeding.

759

00:31:38,733 --> 00:31:38,823

Mm-hmm.

760

00:31:39,063 --> 00:31:42,213

And there are great many things

in the law that people that don't

761

00:31:42,213 --> 00:31:43,623

have attorneys don't understand.

762

00:31:43,623 --> 00:31:43,683

Yeah.

763

00:31:43,683 --> 00:31:47,043

But I find that many attorneys

don't understand that.

764

00:31:47,043 --> 00:31:52,383

And the way that the judges rule

and the way that they will sometimes

765

00:31:52,383 --> 00:31:56,443

rule in a way that's like, okay, I'm

ruling you're gonna be quiet now they

766

00:31:56,503 --> 00:32:01,093

dissuade people from making the correct

objection and continuing to object.

767

00:32:01,093 --> 00:32:05,593

So there's also you can object once

the judge makes clear they're not,

768

00:32:05,623 --> 00:32:08,053

they don't believe that there's

anything objectionable about it.

769

00:32:08,053 --> 00:32:11,683

And then more and more stuff comes out

under that same vein and you don't object

770

00:32:11,683 --> 00:32:14,473

anymore 'cause you've been shot down in

a way that makes you think you're gonna

771

00:32:14,473 --> 00:32:15,793

get in trouble if you say anything else.

772

00:32:16,303 --> 00:32:17,578

But then you can't appeal

'cause that's a waiver.

773

00:32:17,578 --> 00:32:19,363

Yout object to those things

in, there's a waiver.

774

00:32:20,023 --> 00:32:23,713

The attorneys that learn, you know,

you get burned once and then you

775

00:32:23,713 --> 00:32:28,033

start doing judge, you know, uh, can

we recognize that I have a standing

776

00:32:28,033 --> 00:32:31,693

objection on hearsay to everything

related to this document so I don't have

777

00:32:31,693 --> 00:32:34,453

to interrupt the testimony and Sure.

778

00:32:34,453 --> 00:32:36,253

Counsel, I will note

the standing objection.

779

00:32:36,253 --> 00:32:39,133

You're not waiving that objection, but

we can sort of go through this testimony.

780

00:32:39,133 --> 00:32:39,853

'cause I've already ruled.

781

00:32:39,883 --> 00:32:43,903

I, I appreciate that because it, you don't

have to sit there and argue the objection

782

00:32:43,903 --> 00:32:45,163

and get matter and matter and matter.

783

00:32:45,163 --> 00:32:47,503

And I, I don't have a judge that's

so frustrated with me that by the

784

00:32:47,503 --> 00:32:50,593

time I'm presenting my client's case,

yeah, they're already done with me.

785

00:32:50,953 --> 00:32:53,203

And it, it's, I think,

better for my client.

786

00:32:53,233 --> 00:32:56,383

But you just wouldn't know to do that.

787

00:32:56,383 --> 00:32:59,983

And most attorneys early in their

career wouldn't, wouldn't dare

788

00:32:59,983 --> 00:33:02,384

when asked out of a judge who

already seems frustrated with him.

789

00:33:02,389 --> 00:33:02,598

Mm-hmm.

790

00:33:02,683 --> 00:33:03,433

And they will just.

791

00:33:04,528 --> 00:33:07,438

I mean, the ruling could be completely

wrong on every single way, and you could

792

00:33:07,438 --> 00:33:10,408

preclude yourself from being able to

appeal it or do anything about it later.

793

00:33:10,648 --> 00:33:11,248

Christine: Absolutely.

794

00:33:11,458 --> 00:33:15,298

And remember, judge e, judge y.com.

795

00:33:15,298 --> 00:33:18,268

Please go tell us your

stories, judge y.com.

796

00:33:18,538 --> 00:33:20,188

We've gotten so many responses.

797

00:33:20,188 --> 00:33:22,228

It's not, we haven't

gotten back to people yet.

798

00:33:22,228 --> 00:33:24,148

Right now, where you're just

in the collecting phase.

799

00:33:24,358 --> 00:33:27,388

We are working on building the

website, building the app, but

800

00:33:27,388 --> 00:33:28,228

we wanna hear your stories.

801

00:33:28,228 --> 00:33:29,368

We appreciate it so much.

802

00:33:29,578 --> 00:33:31,618

You can turn that

confidentiality button on.

803

00:33:31,618 --> 00:33:36,448

Also, if you're an attorney, you can

say that you're attorney judge y.com.

804

00:33:36,508 --> 00:33:36,658

Hugh: Yep.

805

00:33:36,808 --> 00:33:38,428

We will protect everyone's identity.

806

00:33:38,428 --> 00:33:41,458

We are not in the business of no

snitching, and we don't need it.

807

00:33:41,998 --> 00:33:46,828

We honestly don't need, uh, we don't need

the identity sign on under a fake name.

808

00:33:46,828 --> 00:33:50,518

We, we, we ask that there's a way that

we can communicate with you, but we do

809

00:33:50,518 --> 00:33:55,798

not have any desire to out any sources

of information, and we certainly don't

810

00:33:55,918 --> 00:34:00,148

have any plans to post anything that

we have not verified and looked into.

811

00:34:00,148 --> 00:34:01,529

Judge is going to, yeah.

812

00:34:01,943 --> 00:34:03,353

Investigate these things.

813

00:34:03,683 --> 00:34:06,713

Uh, the stories that people tell us

are just leading us in the direction

814

00:34:06,713 --> 00:34:08,362

to look to see what's there.

815

00:34:08,453 --> 00:34:08,632

Yep.

816

00:34:08,632 --> 00:34:08,993

And judgy

817

00:34:08,993 --> 00:34:11,393

Christine: starting in Louisville,

but we wanna know where judgy

818

00:34:11,393 --> 00:34:13,013

is needed most elsewhere.

819

00:34:13,072 --> 00:34:13,283

Hugh: Yep.

820

00:34:13,463 --> 00:34:14,033

Absolutely.

821

00:34:14,243 --> 00:34:14,963

Christine: Thank y'all.

822

00:34:14,993 --> 00:34:15,683

Have a great day.

823

00:34:16,947 --> 00:34:21,027

Next time we discuss who writes the

orders, judges or staff attorneys.

824

00:34:21,328 --> 00:34:24,538

Also, we make a new bet this

time involving martinis./

825

00:34:24,538 --> 00:34:25,018

Next call.

826

00:34:25,018 --> 00:34:27,223

We need some justice, justice, justice.

827

00:34:27,658 --> 00:34:29,038

And I wanna ring bells in public.

828

00:34:29,398 --> 00:34:31,768

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

829

00:34:31,828 --> 00:34:33,663

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

830

00:34:33,862 --> 00:34:35,422

I To the fo Yeah.

831

00:34:35,503 --> 00:34:39,143

I to the fo fo teaser.