Shownotes
On this episode of Enduring Grief, Sarah Peterson welcomes the insightful and humor-filled Shanan Kelley. Shanan recounts her profound journey caring for her friend Casey, and then losing her right as the world shut down. Discover how the unexpected global pause led to a personal sabbatical filled with self-care activities like coloring and baking. The conversation offers a unique perspective on embracing grief rather than resisting it, highlighting the significant energy spent in avoidance. Also, discover how humor—essential to Shanan's identity—served as an emotional lifeline, reconnecting her with joy during tough times. For anyone struggling with loss, this episode provides valuable thoughts on managing grief with compassion, laughter, and the essential support of a caring community.
Shanan Kelley is a writer, entertainer and comedian and the creator and host of The Night Light Show, Bend’s beloved (and longest running!) variety style comedy show and She Stands Up, an all-women’s comedy show and fundraiser. She is well known for her unique brand of heart-centered comedy and her ability to create a warm, welcoming environment everywhere she goes. Shanan was voted “Bend’s Favorite Variety Show Host” by Source Weekly readers and acknowledged as one of “Five Funny Women” by Cascades Journal. As a sought-after emcee, auctioneer and moderator, Shanan has helped redistribute millions of dollars for mission-driven organizations along the west coast. She is the Development Director for the Kaycee Anseth Legacy Foundation, raising funds for Central Oregon artists and is currently at work on her first feature-length screenplay. Shanan lives in Oregon with her two long-eared, short-legged dogs. Learn more about Shanan on her website shanankelley.com
Sarah Peterson is a licensed clinical social worker with over 13 years of experience in medical social work, hospice care and in private practice. As the founder of Clear Mourning, a nonprofit organization dedicated to shifting the culture of grief through innovation, support, and awareness, Sarah brings a deep understanding of grief and loss to her work. Her personal experiences, including the tragic loss of her two-year-old daughter and father, have profoundly shaped her mission to provide compassionate support to others navigating grief.
Sarah holds a Master of Social Work from Portland State University and has extensive experience in both private practice and nonprofit leadership. She also serves as an adjunct instructor at Portland State, runs her own private practice, and provides supervision for licensure candidates.
Follow us on Instagram: @ClearMourning
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Transcripts
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Sarah Peterson [:Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss, where we dive into real honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW, and in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path alongside my work with my nonprofit, Clear Morning. Clear Morning is dedicated to shifting the culture of grief through support, innovation, and awareness. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me, and how it might resonate with you. Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you. Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing. Let's walk through this journey together. Welcome back, everybody.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm so glad to have our very special guest, Shanan Kelley, here. Shanan is an incredibly special person in my life, a dear friend, a community leader and partner, and somebody who has also walked the path of grief. Shannon, thank you so much for being here.
Shanan Kelley [:It's so good to be here. Thanks for having me.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. What do we need to know about you before we get started, Shannon? Gosh.
Shanan Kelley [:I think one thing I love to tell people, because I'm known for being funny, is that if I wasn't funny, I'd be the most boring person you know.
Sarah Peterson [:Like, you really lean on them.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. I really lean I do. My family made me funny. I guess that's why I chose them. Mhmm. And here we are.
Sarah Peterson [:Here you are. You are so funny. Thanks. Which is why it's perfect that the topic for our podcast today is humor and grief. I think that it's really important to talk about that because there's so many stories that can go along with why we should or should not be laughing when we are actually so sad.
Shanan Kelley [:That's right.
Sarah Peterson [:And those are just stories.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, hey. We all have a friend who, like, everything's going to absolute hell, and then they're, like, cracking jokes. And you're like, what's going on with that? What's going on with that? It's a legitimate strategy to get through.
Sarah Peterson [:It is. I remember one of my first days at hospice, like, in 2005, they showed me a closet, and it was just jam packed full of white binders. And I said My. Oh, is this where white binders come to die? And then everybody, like, stopped and looked at me. I'm like, oh, I didn't mean to be so funny with that Read the room. Read the room.
Shanan Kelley [:Wow. I mean, I love that. My brain works really, really fast. And so, when I'm on stage or even when I'm just, like, with someone, it's this constant, you know, I'm writing something, I'm rehearsing it, I'm deciding whether or not to deliver it, I'm editing, and then, like, I have to decide depending on the context of wherever I am, whatever room I'm in. I have to, like, can I do this? Can I push the and there's a moment, like, especially being in front of a crowd, there's a moment where I'm like, oh, I know these people? Now I know how far I can push it. Now I know the right and if I'm working for a client, I might feel like I'm jumping into stuff before we've even gotten there. But, like, if I'm working for a client, obviously, there's no cuss words, there's no politics, there's no whatever. But I'm always I wanna push it, like, just to the To the very edge.
Shanan Kelley [:I wanna go, like, this is where the white binders come to die. Yeah. Okay. Go there.
Sarah Peterson [:So let's back up, though. What do you mean when you're on stage?
Shanan Kelley [:Okay. So when I'm on stage so I'm a writer and an entertainer. And as an entertainer, I work as an emcee, an auctioneer, a comedian. I produce a live variety show that is going to be 11 years old this month.
Sarah Peterson [:Wow. That's amazing. It's so funny and so good, guys. And there's been times when you've had incredible guests like me on. You have incredible guests every time.
Shanan Kelley [:Thanks. I wish we had been better at capturing every single story that we've shared because we really have told so many stories with so many amazing community partners, and it has been I mean, there's only so much that my, like, immediate brain can Yeah. Can call. But I like I'm like, god. If if I had made this into, like even just for myself, like coffee table books, I'd have, like, 4 huge coffee
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Well, you could start now.
Shanan Kelley [:I know. I could start now. I'm just like a terrible cataloger.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. You need an assistant. I need an intern. You really do. Okay. So Shanan is an entertainer. There's no doubt about that. The other thing Shanan is is living my alter ego life because all I ever wanna be is a comedian, really.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm not as funny as you, but I try really hard. I try really hard to be funny. You're pretty funny. And I can relate to that, like, coming up with the script because even though I'm not on stage, I feel like I am writing bits all the time. Yeah. Bits that nobody gets to hear except for me, and I laugh out loud to myself frequently about how funny I am, but, you know, it only goes that far.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, I don't know because you make me laugh a lot. You make your friends laugh a lot. Yeah. It's seamless. I mean, it's so much fun. You know how it is to be with people who are, like, up for the banter.
Shanan Kelley [:And also when you have a relationship where you trust each other, you don't have to worry so much about the editing. Because even if something terrible comes out, you're like, we're still cool. Right? Like, I'm not gonna, it's always gonna be from the heart. So I'm not gonna say something that's gonna be against your core values because we share many of the same values. Right? So I feel comfortable, like, I can push it and you can push it, and we're like, uh-huh. I agree. Yeah. I agree.
Sarah Peterson [:And I think too, like, grief is one of those core values because I think that when you have experienced and walked the path of grief, it gives you a little bit of street credibility to either make fun of yourself in it or be able to have a little perspective around, like, how sad it actually is and how even sometimes that it's not funny that these people died, but how sad I am and my physical or visual response to it, I'm open to being poked at.
Shanan Kelley [:Absolutely. And I think there's 2 things. So, like, one, there's, like, I have a whole bit about, like, the different types of crying. You know? And, like, to me, this is just, like, there's ugly crying. There's, like, the crying. I love it. It's like there's all the different there's, like, the crying that, like yeah. And there's, like, so many jokes we can make about, like, don't dehydrate yourself. You know? But then I think the other piece of it, and I know you're familiar with this, is after you have met grief fully, you're like, well, burn it all to the ground.
Shanan Kelley [:Who cares? Like, nothing matters.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. So we're explicit here. So we can swear.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay. Great.
Shanan Kelley [:I love burn it square.
Sarah Peterson [:Burn it fucking down.
Shanan Kelley [:Burn it all the way to the ground. I said that so many times.
Sarah Peterson [:Let's just burn the whole it down.
Shanan Kelley [:To the whole ground. I mean, it's a cleansing process. It's a renewal pro it will grow back and it will be healthier. Yeah. Exactly.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. I was talking to a client about this because they were processing 2 losses at once and asking me, like, what's wrong with me that the second loss doesn't feel as sad? And I, like, I scraped my palm on the floor, and I said, because you're this sad, and you can't get Right. We reached sadder.
Shanan Kelley [:At the maximum sadness.
Sarah Peterson [:There's only this much sadness, and it was such a sad conversation, and yet we cracked up laughing because it was, like, how very human of us that, like, you really can't get sadder. Don't worry. I can't did it. Frown harder.
Shanan Kelley [:You got a gold medal in sadness. You went all the way too sad. All the way down. Yeah. Dirty dog town. Lived in sad town. Yeah. Mhmm.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:And so, you know, both the permission to say, like, I don't have to somehow find a way to be even sadder yet, or maybe it's also like, I really am frowning as hard as I can.
Shanan Kelley [:I know. Right? Like and then it's like, well, I'm just filling up the sadness reservoir.
Shanan Kelley [:So if I do start to come out of it, I can go right back in.
Sarah Peterson [:Right back in. Don't worry. There's still more. There's more sadness.
Shanan Kelley [:There's more to do here. Ugh. I know. But, also, isn't it so I can get a little righteous? That's the thing about me you can know. I get a little righteous, and I'm like, but at least we know how to feel our feelings.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Thank you.
Shanan Kelley [:Because that is, like, one of the most important skill sets that we could possibly have. And the people that came before us weren't taught that. No. And I mean by people like I mean, like our parents and grandparents, like those generations was like they were not feeling feelings and identifying feelings. And then our generation, I don't believe was taught it either, but we've had to learn it.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. We're gen x, by the way.
Shanan Kelley [:Right. Mhmm. We are. Right?
Sarah Peterson [:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Scraping in at the last, but we are. Thank god.
Shanan Kelley [:I've heard we're the organ trailers. We're just like, there was a moment in time. A few of us slipped through. Here we are. Here we Yeah. So, I mean No. I agree with that. There's 2 things we do as humans that are special.
Shanan Kelley [:It's like eat food and have feelings. And so, like, why we wouldn't be, like, fully immersing ourselves in, like, eating food and enjoying it and then, like, having feelings and being intelligent about that and, like, letting it be a superpower. Because I really truly believe this is, like, the next phase of human evolution is, like, going into emotionality and, like, like, really understanding our feelings and and speaking about them and relating and being sensitive to each other. And the problem is, I think some of us are, like, really up for it. Like, obviously, I'm interested in feelings. I'm, like, let's talk about feelings. Yeah. This can be a little lonely when you're, like, the only person doing it.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. I talk about that a lot with like, I teach a social work class, and they're grad students. And we talk about what it means to leave people in the dust as you're on this personal journey to understanding where your shit is and what you're bringing to the table and how in our culture that oftentimes means leaving a few of your closest people kind of behind. Not like you cut them out of your life No. That you no longer go to them for them.
Shanan Kelley [:Mhmm. Relational. Yeah. It changes. Like, I saw this quote the other day that was like, you can't have butterfly conversations with caterpillar people and not this is not like a, oh, I'm this butterfly. It's not like that. It's like, I'm in this place. You're in this place. I can't expect you to be where I am.
Shanan Kelley [:I can't expect everyone to be where I am. That's unrealistic, and, honestly, it's just a silly thing.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:And so we're here. We're where we are, but it does mean maybe that some of your conversations with some people are gonna be different than with other people.
Sarah Peterson [:For sure. And as you're talking about this evolution that we're facing culturally, I just like, job security. You know, I'm a therapist. This is gonna be great for my business.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, same, I'm about comedian.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Let's, I mean, we're about to get rich, girl.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. Yeah. This is our time.
Sarah Peterson [:This is our time.
Shanan Kelley [:I mean, it definitely could be. I mean, here we are in our forties, and I do think we, certainly, as women who work, the we do the bulk of it from now until, what, like, 68, 69, 70. So here we go.
Sarah Peterson [:Let's go. One of my really good friends, she calls this the horse years.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Just in the horse years where we're just, like, carrying the wagon. Mhmm. Got a saddle on our back.
Shanan Kelley [:Or maybe some of us are, like, at the top of our game racing a cowboy.
Sarah Peterson [:And in this in the case of this podcast, the cowboy would be both crying and laughing.
Shanan Kelley [:Yes. Absolutely. And I'd love to take a metaphor into a totally weird place very quickly.
Sarah Peterson [:We just did it. Yeah. We did. Okay. So when you're talking about feeling the feelings, first, tell us about your grief. Who'd you lose? What happened?
Shanan Kelley [:Well, I believe that grief is, like, a part of the agreement of being human.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. So How about loving?
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. And I think that if you don't tend to your grief, it will come for you.
Sarah Peterson [:Yes. It will.
Shanan Kelley [:2 years later, you will be sick. You will be injured. Whatever. It will come for you. I've seen it. Right? I've seen it. And so when my dearest friend, Casey and Seth, passed on the 1st day of quarantine in 2020. I mean, talk about timing.
Sarah Peterson [:Talk about timing.
Shanan Kelley [:My lord. She was like that. When she passed, I well, then it was quarantine. She was at the end of a long arduous battle with ovarian cancer, and so for those last 3 or 4 months, so, like, a full season, she was on home hospice, and I was lucky enough to be part of her home care team. And it was incredible, and I had no idea what I was doing. I was literally just like, show me, guide me. You know? Like, the and we'd be like, okay. And this is the maximum, and then it would get more intense, and we're still doing it.
Shanan Kelley [:And I just knew the whole way through, like, I will never regret being available to this time, spending this time with my friend. I will never regret making myself available to this. I'm just gonna go for it. So we had this very full experience, and a very full experience of her death. I was present when she actually passed, which was a great mercy at the end after just arduous months of labor. Right? And to be together for that was, like, just really remarkable. And then I went home, and I was, like, home for a night, and I opened my like, peeked out my window. The next day, my car had a flat tire, and I was like, I'll see you fuckers in, like, 4 months.
Shanan Kelley [:You know? Yeah. I get I'm toast.
Sarah Peterson [:You're like, it's fine.
Shanan Kelley [:I am took you ever wanted to leave anyway? I couldn't sit down or stand up, and I was just a That's yeah. What a great illustration. Right. And, like, also my career died, like, overnight. Like, my entire year of events canceled, and that's never happened. And so you're just kinda like, what is going on? Right? Yeah. And then, like, the state burned down. You know, it was just like Oh, that's right.
Shanan Kelley [:Great civil unrest. I mean, the season was just insane, and so I just decided very consciously to be present for my grief and tend to it and take care of myself. And oddly enough, like, here I was totally burnt out from having worked myself so hard for my whole entire life, and now I'm, like, essentially on sabbatical, forced to sabbatical. And so I had all this time to just be at home with my dog, Scout, and color and coloring books, and rebuild, like, one muffin recipe at
Sarah Peterson [:a time, you know? And, this is like Schweddy balls.
Shanan Kelley [:It is very Schweddy balls. Yeah. And I am so grateful that I did that, and I just treasure that I did that. And I think once you have made a decision to dedicate yourself to tending to your grief, like, you're not gonna not do that anymore. You're not gonna go back to someone who pushes it away.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Because I think that you learn or one may learn that it's actually, albeit very difficult, much easier to go that path than the constant resistance. Absolutely. Because the resistance takes a ton of energy. And I'll often say to people, you know that exercise we used to do in kids where you stand in the doorway and you shove your hands against it as hard as you can. And then you walk away and it feels like your arms are floating up.
Shanan Kelley [:Right.
Sarah Peterson [:And it's like the resistance to what is, is us just standing in that doorway. And it's remarkable how light you can feel. Even though it's hard to walk out of the doorway, there is lightness there and the transformation.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. I think that's a really great way to describe it. And I remember, like, way back when I was working on the Nightlight Show, which is my variety show, and I was very clear about the fact that, like, it's gonna be the same amount of energy if I pursue my dreams or not. Oh, yeah. So why not just do what I wanna do that makes me feel good and feels right or, you know, is exciting to me? And I think it's the same with this. Right? Like, it's gonna be hard, guys. There's gonna be poop. Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:If you're alive, like, it's gonna be it's life is not I don't think life shows up easy for anybody, so why wouldn't I? Because then there's just so many gifts that come out of the grieving process, and one of those is that now you can show other people how to do it, which I think is, like, the key right now, is that we model being open to this, and then other people go like, oh, I think I'm open to learning more about that. And, I mean, I have people like, how do you tend the grief? I'm like, you tend it the way you tend your favorite garden. And if you don't know, then you ask some people what they do and you try those things. It's not like a, okay. Well, first we drink a sip of water, and then we do some calisthenics. You know? It's like, it's unique.
Sarah Peterson [:Well, that's why we do this podcast because I think culturally and socially, there's a story about what grief should look like and that it should follow this exact path and that, you know, at 2 weeks this and at 1 year that and 2 years this. And the part that I feel like I am constantly trying to remind people is that you're the expert on your grief, not me for 1. And no wonder you're lost. Everything just changed. And when we have a loss, a big loss, especially, but, I mean, really, any kind of loss, in some ways, everything's on the table because we're no longer who we were. Right. And so 1 by 1, we have to pull those things back off the table and redefine them for ourselves, and that's the tending to it.
Shanan Kelley [:I can't I can't think of a better thing to do. Like, right now, like, everything has always been on the table. We just figured it wasn't right. I also will say that, when I was going through that with Casey, when it when we knew that we were heading in a particular direction, that is to say, we knew we were at the end of her life, I was like, Oh, I need to find a friend who's been through this. Like, best friend grief is unique. I need to find a friend who's been through this. Like, it's different losing a grandparent. Right? There's, you know, we've been through different there are, like, subcategories, and that's an a unique experience, and I don't think it's one that is talked about enough.
Shanan Kelley [:And through, like, just the being cared for, I think, in community, but even just, like, by my creator, my whoever's looking out for me, I did make a friend in January of that year. Her name is Allison, and she had been through something similar with her best friend 2 years prior. And, I mean, I just can't stress it enough. She was an incredible friend to make at that moment in my life, because we could talk about all the things that I had never experienced before because I had never lost a best friend like that.
Sarah Peterson [:Exactly. And I would say too that, like, best friend or friend loss in general is probably a diminished grief in some ways. I just don't think that we offer.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. There's no resources. There's no, like, oh, your best friend died. Like, take some time, you know, get because you're not related, so maybe
Sarah Peterson [:you don't qualify for the sort of corporate leave one might qualify for, and they didn't live with you, so you're not gonna you know, don't worry. You don't have to deal with that whole thing, and you're not responsible for their affairs, so that's okay too. I think it's really diminished.
Shanan Kelley [:I know. I agree. And I think that there's so many assumptions because all those things that you just said, like, may or may not be true. Largely, they are, but then, like, I mean, at the end of Casey's life, I was, like, the point person. So one really wonderful thing that actually happened for me personally was that after she passed Partners in Care, is that correct? They actually did check up on me, and they did offer support, and they did send me some beautiful resources. And that was amazing, and it was like a fluke that that happened.
Sarah Peterson [:Well, I think her name's Melanie. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to Melanie.
Shanan Kelley [:Shout out to Melanie. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:That doesn't happen for me.
Shanan Kelley [:And people don't consider that. And it's kind of like, oh, you lost your best friend, and, like, okay. And then, like, people just forget so quickly. And then you're just sitting there like, wait. Hang on a sec. Should I be okay? This is not you know? So I was like, fuck that.
Shanan Kelley [:I'm gonna wallow in this because this is, like, so life changing. If I don't let this change me, like, I have some real problems. So I yeah. Was it I treasure?
Sarah Peterson [:It would be such a missed a missed opportunity to honor Casey, for 1, learn about yourself, develop a new relationship with what is. And everybody who's listened to the podcast has heard me talk about, you know, grief really is the relationship that we now have with the person who's gone. And like any new relationship, which the grief version is new, it requires attention, intention, investigation, and boundaries. Can't do this right now. Which is hard.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. But you're also, like I mean, you're identifying I know this is, like, a cultural thing. So for our culture, I'll just say, I don't think there's enough emphasis on how to build, intend, and maintain good friendships. I don't even think we're really taught how to do that properly. And that's really sad.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. It is sad. It's a loss. It's a deep deep loss.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, yeah. Tragedy.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm. I'm glad we're friends.
Shanan Kelley [:Me too. We're good at it. We are. We really like you. I really like you too. Well, we met through our great friend, Nora, who Yeah. I always like, I can say, like, I remember the first time I met Nora's husband, Jared, he came into this brewery where I was working, like, hung up a poster. I was like, who's this guy in this funny little car? You know? Like, what what's this guy doing? Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:The little Honda Accord. But with Nora, I don't remember meeting her. She just was my friend. Like, I don't remember her not being in my life. She just was there and then we were friends. And I don't it's that is a unique because usually I can remember. Like, oh, I like you. Like, we're gonna I remember the first time I met you.
Sarah Peterson [:I do too.
Shanan Kelley [:We, like, connected right away. But, yeah, Nora's just like auto, auto friend.
Sarah Peterson [:She sure is. Mhmm.
Shanan Kelley [:We love you, Nora. We love you, Nora.
Sarah Peterson [:Nora really likes this podcast.
Shanan Kelley [:I bet she does.
Sarah Peterson [:She's heard it all before. I think it was better. Thousand times. Right? You better like it, Nora. I didn't see your review on there though, Nora. Oh, Nora. Five stars. Nora was probably an integral part of both of our grief processes in some ways because, obviously, when Marley died, she was an incredible support for me, and she, sharing Casey, is such a close friend with you.
Sarah Peterson [:I'm sure you guys did some of that work together. Mhmm.
Shanan Kelley [:When Casey was in kind of her final weeks, a lot of what that sort of first circle of people are responsible for is creating a boundary for the person going through their transition to the end of life. So, like, protecting their energy and protecting them from everyone who wants to come in and dump their green person. Like a gatekeeper. Yeah. And so there was, like, definitely some of our work was, like, putting people off or just, like, determining, like, who does Casey want here right now? And, like, we have to kind of, negotiate that. I remember having a conversation with Nora, and I was like, if you wanna come, come. Like, absolutely. And she freaking got in the car and drove up and did the thing, and it was so beautiful.
Shanan Kelley [:And, you know, when someone, like, drives a distance and shows up like that too, it's like it was, like, really special for Casey, but it was, like, also really huge for us.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:Me, for those of us who were supporting. And yeah, I mean, Nora is an angel.
Sarah Peterson [:That's true. Yeah. Okay. So enter humor. When did you start to feel funny again?
Sarah Peterson [:Oh. Did you ever lose it? You've always felt so funny?
Shanan Kelley [:No. Listen, sweetie. No. Listen. When Casey, in those last months, let's just say well, we'll say, like, 4 months, we laughed the whole time.
Sarah Peterson [:Did you really? I'm so glad to hear that.
Shanan Kelley [:Yes. We cried a lot. We talked about serious stuff, and we were all the things, but we laughed the whole time.
Sarah Peterson [:Because that's the nature of the biz for the 2 of you. But, like, especially you 2. Like, you always laughed together. So why would that change? And you're a funny person, and you got to stay funny. Did it ever feel like extra effort to be funny in your sadness?
Shanan Kelley [:No. No. But for me okay. Understand. Like, let's go all the way back. Like I said, I chose my family because they made me funny. I love them so much. I love them so much.
Shanan Kelley [:And, also, I spent a good amount of time as a young person feeling ill at ease because yes. I just we had a lot going on Yeah. When I was young, a lot. And the way I think about it is, like, we got through it by laughing. And my dad taught me, like, so I know about all the comics. Like, I met a guy the other day. I met a guy from this is just like a side note and because it's been on my mind. I was chatting with a girl of mine.
Shanan Kelley [:She's an absolute catch. I love this woman. She's about 10 years younger than us, super successful, beautiful, so sweet, all the things. And she brought this guy to the gym, and I guess they had been dating for a couple months. And he and I started chatting, and she told him I was a comedian, and he started listing off these comedians that he likes. And he told me that the comedy capital of the US is Austin, Texas, and I about, piss myself because I'm thinking, bro, I don't, are you okay? Come on now. What did you tell me? I'm not even gonna say their names. I was like, those people aren't funny. Uh-huh.
Sarah Peterson [:So what do you mean by the comedy capitalist?
Shanan Kelley [:Chicago? I mean, maybe. New York. Chicago, New York. I mean, yeah, you wanna be a stand up, go to New York, I think. But also do comedy wherever you want. Yeah. I mean, obviously, I've taken, like, a different path to the mic and so but yeah, anyways, I think, like my point as I walked away from that, like, you don't know, you know, like, let's talk about comedy, you know, like, what are you talking about?
Sarah Peterson [:And so your dad gave that to you.
Shanan Kelley [:My dad gave that to me and like my grandpa's very, very funny. And so it was like a survival skill for many years. And, like, I remember as a young person, I would, like, I guess, be, like, what people would call sarcastic, like, in school or whatever, and that that would be, like, maybe a little much for my fellow classmates. And so, anyways, over the years, I have learned to harness this and refine the skill. And now it's, like, my most marketable skill set is this, like, ability to be humorous in, like, many, many different contexts. And I think I've gotten off away from what the original question was. Was it ever hard to be funny? No. It's never been hard to be funny.
Shanan Kelley [:Okay.
Sarah Peterson [:Never. It's ever hard to laugh.
Shanan Kelley [:I think where I'm trying to go with this is, like, it is my medicine. It is the way I communicate. It is the way I see the world. Like, when you referenced you know, you're walking through your life and you're seeing this and it there's always a way it can be funny. Yeah. There just always almost is a way that it can and most of my material is just, like, observing the world around me and, like, laughing at it. Yeah. And I can't imagine existing without that.
Sarah Peterson [:I love to hear that, and I hope that you listeners find a cell of permission or hope or whatever it is for you to say that there's no reason to deprive yourself of the laughs. And in my darkest days, which you'll always hear me say capital d, capital d, I did find it very hard to smile or be funny or laugh at things, but I knew that it was still a part of me because it always has been, and I missed it. And I missed it in part because my son needed that part of me back, but also just to feel that in my in the belly laugh, in my throat, in all the ways. And I would watch this episode. I don't even really love the show so much, but it's season 5 episode 21 of Frasier.
Shanan Kelley [:And I did not affect this thing.
Sarah Peterson [:I know. What? What? Yeah. Not everybody's go to grief comedy. No. And they break character. And no matter what, I would just watch this, like, tiny clip where they're in the kitchen and they're dealing with this thing, and they're all breaking character, and I would laugh. And I think the work there for me was to, like, turn to that part of myself and say, there you are, old friend.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. That's really beautiful. I mean, my best girlfriend and I would say, like, well, it's time to start Schitt's Creek season 1, episode 1 again. It's medicinal Schitt's Creek.
Sarah Peterson [:There you go.
Shanan Kelley [:You know?
Sarah Peterson [:So even if you have to manufacture it's still okay. Find a way.
Shanan Kelley [:I don't know if it's a physiological response when you laugh. And I realized this too.
Shanan Kelley [:Okay. So think about, like, the parts of the body that are involved in laughter. It's the same physiological mechanism as crying, coughing, laughing. It's the same thing. Your lungs, which express which are the organ of grief, are expressing something through your throat, through your mouth. And so I can see that that connection is, like, not just a coincidence.
Sarah Peterson [:Right. I agree. Yeah. I hope that you inspire people through this episode today, Shannon, to say, like, 1, it's okay to cling to the parts and redefine the parts of you that have always made you you even though you've experienced a tremendous loss and everything's on the table. And 2, it's okay to manufacture and create laughter. And if you're funny, it's also still okay to be funny.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. And I do and I realized, like, there's probably something else that I should add to this as well. Like, there's a great responsibility that that comes along with the gift of humor. And I and I think that I probably am taking that for granted and and lessening it because over the course of my entire life, I have learned to be a heart centered person who truly cares about people. And so I'm not, like, okay. Let me just say my grandmother passed away on Friday, and, like, I have a small joke that I'm writing for my show that I'm doing, in a couple weeks. Right? And it's not an insensitive joke. You know? It's like, what is the part about this that is appropriate, that is relatable, that other people would, like, share this experience? It's not just, like, for the sake of getting a laugh.
Shanan Kelley [:I think if I can back up to this guy I met and the comedians that he was referencing, like, this is the difference. To me, comedy is the most sacred of professions. This is one of our most important tools that we have to gather and connect with each other, to heal, to be together, to even just, like, get through life. And so it shouldn't just be some throwaway thing that we're doing to get podcast listens and to sell tickets. Right? Like, I mean, whatever. Do whatever you gotta do.
Shanan Kelley [:But for me I think it's so much more than that. It's such a superpower. It's such a huge healing modality.
Sarah Peterson [:Absolutely. And with great intention can cause and assist in incredible transformation. Yes. But not easy. Anybody can do it.
Shanan Kelley [:Anybody can laugh. Anybody can laugh. So that's huge. It's true.
Sarah Peterson [:And if you think you can't, I'm gonna tell you season 5 episode 21 about 12 minutes in.
Shanan Kelley [:I'm gonna steer you my laugh. Shit's creep. No. You gotta find your medicinal show. Yeah. Gosh. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:I mean, doctor Frasier Crane isn't for everybody.
Shanan Kelley [:I mean, I feel old just thinking about it. Yeah. No. I love that that you can reference an exact episode and an exact moment because, yeah, I think having a couple little go to's in your back pocket is probably a good move.
Sarah Peterson [:I think it's a good move. It's a strategy.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. It's a strategy to say, like, I can so easily forget about all these other parts of me because the feeling and the sensation of grief is so overwhelming that it's really easy for us to forget that there's more to us than this grief. And even if it's in a tiny way for 3 minutes, that's something that you've strategized that you get to, let's just say it, break character. Break your grief character and laugh hard at something. It also goes into some other things I've talked about in previous episodes, which is, you know, as a griever, we can define healing for ourselves. Yeah. You know? And this is one of those things that I used to say, I know I'm on the path to healing or learning to live with this in the most meaningful way when I laugh hard.
Shanan Kelley [:Mhmm.
Sarah Peterson [:And then when I laugh hard unapologetically, that's even another step in that direction.
Shanan Kelley [:Mhmm.
Sarah Peterson [:And so there's just so many things that can be done with this as Mhmm.
Shanan Kelley [:I agree. And, like, to remind ourselves that there are some things in this very capitalistic society that we live in that just shouldn't be a checklist and just shouldn't be for money and just shouldn't be a way that someone tells you to do it in this order, in this box, and am I doing it right and am I doing it wrong? Like, allowing ourselves to just be messy or just be whatever or go off the script. I mean, there's just got to be a few things that are not for profit, and I think that death is certainly one of them, and loss is certainly one of them, and grief people talk about a revolution. This is a revolution.
Sarah Peterson [:You're right.
Shanan Kelley [:Take it back for yourself.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm. Yeah. Let it in. Let it in. Work with it. Tend to it. Care for it. And in the end, learn to live with it in the most meaningful way.
Shanan Kelley [:Mhmm. Yeah. And, like, have some funny friends on deck.
Sarah Peterson [:Have some funny friends. Oh my gosh. Too bad we can't do, like, a call in right now.
Shanan Kelley [:I know.
Sarah Peterson [:Maybe in the future, we can do a call in, and people who need a funny friend could have us for just
Shanan Kelley [:a minute. Start to build the roster. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, gosh, you guys, if you don't have the people around you who are making you feel good, make some changes. Do it now.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Do it now. Do it now. Funny is everything.
Shanan Kelley [:Mhmm. And again and you know, like, what funny is is, like, really smart and really sensitive.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm.
Shanan Kelley [:Like, really funny is, like, I've seen some shit, and I live to tell the tale.
Sarah Peterson [:I wish I could see her face right now. She's, like, full character. And so, like, it's good. It's good stuff. It is good. And there's also an element of trust that I think goes with the funny That goes with being funny or laughing hard.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, again, it's a great responsibility. But, yeah, trust is really huge in our relationships.
Sarah Peterson [:And when grief strikes, oftentimes, trust is broken. Trust in God, trust in the universe, trust in the system, trust in the safety nets, whatever that might look like.
Shanan Kelley [:But Well, and if we wanna talk about, like, the cultural aspects of this, because I know that each culture does have their own unique ways of handling this. Like, our white culture, you know, we have things that have happened in our past that we made a break from, and we don't know what it is, but we know it wasn't good. So we're carrying all this stuff around. And not only that, we don't have the skills to deal with the complexities of being a human, and, like, here we are. So I'll say, like, for us, like, things that I notice in, like, white culture is that when we don't know how to have conflict, we have violence, so we just cut relationships off. Right? Which is so sad, so tragic, and terrible. We don't know how to, like, nurture friendships and have trust and, like, really, like, go to the place. And I think some of us are, like, really fighting for that and really trying, but, like, I look around, and I'm not seeing that people have the networks and the trusted people in their lives.
Shanan Kelley [:You know? Yeah. But, again, like, this we're also, like, talking about skillfulness. So, yeah, and I think even we're talking about how people jam pack their lives, so there's no time.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. And I have so much empathy for that. Like, I was speaking with a good friend of mine the other day, artist Teefly, and I was like, look. There's many things that affect my decision making process, and, like, 2 of them are always present. And one of them is I have bills to pay, which is so sad, But very real.
Sarah Peterson [:Yep. Also real.
Shanan Kelley [:And then 2, am I gonna be able to keep myself safe from violence, sexual violence, sexual gender gender based violence, whatever. Right? So, like, so sad. Yep. So sad. Can we get sadder?
Sarah Peterson [:We feel so sadder. Our palms on the floor and we're saying, Yes.
Shanan Kelley [:This is good. Yeah. Can't frown harder. This just can't it just can't seem to get, you know? Any sadder. Yeah. And it's intense because here I am. I'm like 45, so I'm, like, almost halfway through. Right?
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Right. Almost halfway through.
Shanan Kelley [:And, like, I'll be very honest with you, Sarah. Like, recently, I've been like, okay. Like, I want this, like, next 60 years of my life to be, like, kinda chill. I'm, like, I'm gonna, like, do some stuff. You know? Yeah. Now it's like, no. It's, like, still a shit mess on Earth.
Shanan Kelley [:And I think it hasn't for everybody. Because if you remind yourself, like, the ancient Romans were like, well, it can't get worse than this. Right. They were having holidays. Like, the world is ending tomorrow. This is the worst. And here we are. Here we are.
Shanan Kelley [:All these years later with freaking computers.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Fax machines.
Shanan Kelley [:You know? I think that this is with a fax machine. God bless it. How does it work? I don't know. Oh, right. But here we are. Here we are. And so I just think, like, earth is again, part of the agreement is, like, you're gonna grieve. Grief is gonna be present.
Shanan Kelley [:It's the human condition.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm. You can't live without loss.
Shanan Kelley [:Mhmm.
Sarah Peterson [:Because it's either you saying goodbye, like, saying goodbye to everybody because it's you on the way out or it's you saying goodbye to somebody you love. But you're not likely not gonna be the first I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like, we're all gonna have to do it.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. Oh, yeah. We just do. I mean, I really was starting to think maybe my grandma wasn't going to because, I mean, she just wasn't going. But old was she? 92 years old. And I'll tell you, lifelong hypochondriac. Wow. Lifelong hypochondriac.
Shanan Kelley [:Couldn't She was scared of dying. Couldn't manage to catch a disease. The only one of us I know that stayed perfectly healthy the whole entire time. But she was very much scared to live and scared to die, and that's a bad place to be It is. For a human. So what I realized, actually, Sarah, was I woke up on Sunday morning recognizing that over the past month, I had been holding space for her to leave. And that brought me great peace because I was like, oh, I was talking about that. I was talking about that with my mother.
Shanan Kelley [:I was talking about that with my best friend. I knew she needed help letting go.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm.
Shanan Kelley [:And that was one thing I could do was just, like, hold that space, and then that helped me feel at peace about it. Because it's not tragic when your grandmother passes away at 92, but it is so sad. It is sad. Oh, it's so sad.
Sarah Peterson [:Like I said to you in the text, it's like, this is the first day ever in your whole life. You haven't I know.
Shanan Kelley [:It's so sad. And like you said, then the process of being in relationship to them in this new format arises. I'll say the first time my grandma died, my first grandma. If you didn't.
Sarah Peterson [:I was gonna say, well, what?
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. Okay. First grandma. I'm working on that one. This was many years ago. I was getting ready to go to my cousin's wedding in Southern California, and I was like, oh, I can't wait to tell grandma about x, y, and z. And then I was like, Shanjie's been on the other side for 7 years. Like She's gone.
Shanan Kelley [:And it was like, oh my god. You know?
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. But still that.
Shanan Kelley [:I can just tell her now.
Sarah Peterson [:I do that, Shanan. I'll be like, oh, what's the lyric to that song I should call my dad? 1800 call heaven, I guess, because Say no. Not a fan.
Shanan Kelley [:You know, almost like he already knows. I don't know.
Sarah Peterson [:He already knows. I actually don't have to call him.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. He's like, I agree. Thumbs up. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But that instinct, because we've had them our whole lives.
Sarah Peterson [:And so to undo that in a in a blank is just not all set.
Shanan Kelley [:I'm so you know, I'm about 45. I still have a living grandma. Like, like, nobody feels sorry for me. But both my parents are here. They are still married. That's a whole other episode. Okay.
Shanan Kelley [:Okay. Both my parents are here. I get to see them, like, every month. I talk to my mom just about every day. I love her so much, and we're very close, and we also have our troubles, and they're very real. And I can't imagine a world without her in it. Yeah. I just can't even fathom that.
Sarah Peterson [:It's such a complicated relationship.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh my god.
Sarah Peterson [:Because I feel the same. I love my mom. And she's an incredible source of comfort and value and to me and my kids.
Shanan Kelley [:Have to use her again and again. Right?
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. And sometimes, Which I have to come to terms with my kids saying that about me someday, I guess.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, I know. Right? My friend my dear friend, Kat Selser, another great, really wise woman and also on the path of grief. Right? And just such a beautiful person and a good teacher for me for many years. She told me a long, long, long time ago that the mother's job is to sacredly wound her children. Oh, that's Oh my god. That's beautiful. That I have something to push back against, Sarah. I guess
Sarah Peterson [:That's right. I have to give them content.
Shanan Kelley [:Yes. Right? Yes. Yes. And look. We all walked the path we sure do. So you know? And I do think, like, once we leave, then, like, the complications from the physical body and the shape of what you did while you were here, like, that goes. Yeah. So then once you're in your next version, like, you just get to be the beautiful, big, full spirit, and none of that complicated stuff exists anymore, and that's such a healing thing and can be very healing for those of us who are still here.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Something I wish maybe your grandma would have realized a little sooner. Ugh.
Shanan Kelley [:I know. Now I was like, can I slip mushrooms under her teeth? That's unethical, champ. I don't know. Is it? I mean, I think that but there's always a lesson. Right? Because I'm like, oh, if that's we will slip mushrooms into my teeth. I'm going that way.
Sarah Peterson [:Exactly. This is hers. So we know we don't want mushrooms in our teeth.
Shanan Kelley [:We know what we don't wanna do. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Our stuff versus their stuff. Which how apropos for grief because watching people do their grief journey in a way that is not how I did mine is one of the greater challenges, honestly, and yet it has to be that way.
Shanan Kelley [:Uh-huh.
Sarah Peterson [:Because I can't put the mushroom in their teeth.
Shanan Kelley [:No. We cannot expect people to be where we are. That's just let that go.
Sarah Peterson [:I know. It's hard. It is hard.
Shanan Kelley [:I have someone I care very much for, and she is at the point in her grief where her body's going, hey, girl. I'm gonna get you.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm.
Shanan Kelley [:And it's so hard. I just feel so tender for her. I love her so much, and and she's doing it her way, and that's her choice.
Sarah Peterson [:That's what she's gotta do. Mhmm. Believe it or not, until she's ready to let her arms fall from the doorway. Yeah. That's right. They're gonna stand there. And who's to say?
Shanan Kelley [:Who's to say? Yeah. It's not like, oh, this is better. This is worse. Exactly. I know what I would choose. Exactly. Because I do find it to be an interesting experience being here on Earth, and I'm like, you know what? I like the path of least resistance. I love the one that I like.
Shanan Kelley [:That's the one I'm looking at. Like, when my dog dies, I get a dog, another dog, or, like, I have a backup dog.
Sarah Peterson [:You've got, like, so many dogs. Yeah.
Shanan Kelley [:I have so many dogs. I'm like, we're I got a couple extras. I've got a few that I can call in a pinch. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. As a listener, where is the path of least resistance for you, and what's the story around taking it? Because I'll often hear clients talk about how that feels like settling or, like, being weak or not courageous. And I honestly think to say I am taking the path of least resistance because that's what's best for me is one of the most courageous things one can say.
Shanan Kelley [:I couldn't agree more. It's hard for me to understand how someone would see that as being weak to me. It feels very wise It does feel wise. And efficient. People are, like, dedicated to the battle. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [:And if you're not fighting, water you're not living. Well, we've been very well trained to see that. Yeah. We have. Yeah. So where can you put down the battle? And maybe that means, like, laughing really hard and not feeling badly about it.
Shanan Kelley [:Mhmm.
Sarah Peterson [:Not feeling guilty about it.
Shanan Kelley [:I think one of the beautiful things about this emergence of the conversation of grief as it's becoming more and more common to have grief conversations and I know in my bubble, of course, it's more common, so maybe that's not true for it's certainly not true for everybody. But as we have more and more people coming to the field as death doulas, as we have more and more podcasts and books being written about this, like, shore yourself up before the bad thing happens. Like, get the favorite show lined up. Like, get the people in your life that are funny. Like, get the comedy That's dash all that. Like, have some things in the medicine cabinet that aren't just Benadryl.
Sarah Peterson [:Right. I mean, girl loves her Benadryl. I get it. Early Alzheimer's or whatever. Right. Not a good connection. But, like, what we're saying is quit pretending like it's not gonna happen to you and engage in the process. So when it'll demand you, then you're as ready as one can be. I mean, that I attribute so much of that to my, I don't know.
Sarah Peterson [:What do we call it, success in grief or I'm really good at being so sad. You're, like, very skilled. I'm very skilled at being sad. I can suck the air out of my room, Shannon, faster than anybody. That's how good I am. I know. And part of that great success is that I was surrounded by people who weren't afraid to talk about it.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. Because, like Huge. Because my job and that I was in hospice and doing all that work, my medicine cabinet was default, not through my own wisdom was it full. It just happened. It just happened. Yeah. And it was transformative.
Sarah Peterson [:And it meant everything.
Shanan Kelley [:Well and it's the truth is, like, when you get sick, like, you might not want chicken soup, so you better have some tomato soup in there too. Right? So, like, you know, and each time you're facing loss, it might be different. You know, like, yoga had historically been something that really helped me a lot. And when Casey passed away, I couldn't be on my mat for more than 20 seconds. I was like, get me out of here. It wasn't funny. You're like, when you if you don't have a backup, if you don't have some other things to try instead, like, you're gonna feel unmoored.
Shanan Kelley [:You know? That's gonna feel great.
Sarah Peterson [:No. That's such a good point. And, like, one of our previous episodes is the new languages of grief, which is my version of, like, ways in which we comfort ourselves through 7 different filters essentially. And if you went back and listened to that that episode and asked yourself like, okay. What would my physical be? What would my imaginary fantasy comfort be? What would my afterlife be? What you know, go through that and just kinda come up with it, which also reminds me of a quote that we've talked about, which is die before you die. So when you die, you will not die, which really says, use things like I have a flat tire as a tiny death to practice being with the discomfort.
Shanan Kelley [:Every time I travel, I'm like the version of me after this that's gonna be a different me. So, like, the me before the travel's not no longer. Yeah. You know, that's, like, a weird process to go through, but I do it with that.
Sarah Peterson [:That's a great Exactly. Exactly. Because you're not that person anymore. You can't undo going to this remarkable place. You've been there.
Shanan Kelley [:It's gonna change your world.
Sarah Peterson [:It's gonna change you. Yeah. And so let it change you.
Shanan Kelley [:Mhmm.
Sarah Peterson [:And be prepared to have the safety nets in place when the change is not the one you were necessarily seeking.
Shanan Kelley [:You know, I think there's another thing that we haven't said explicitly, and that is that we all have to learn to be much, much, much kinder to ourselves.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh, well, not me, but you?
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. Well, right. You're the exception. No. But that's like that also could be the path of least resistance.
Shanan Kelley [:Well, you know. But people don't wanna do it. Like, you have to reprogram your brain. You've really gotta watch it. And it sneaks up on you because I'll tell you, like, it's layers. Right? Like, healing happens in so many different ways and so many different processes over the course of time. And, you know, like, you might not even know until you bring awareness to it that you're doing this thing, that you're saying this thing to yourself, and, like, you gotta really start to be investigative. You gotta be sharp. And then you gotta root it out.
Shanan Kelley [:You gotta be honest with yourself and then, like, make that change. And I had one recently that surprised me, and I was like, what? And then we just I just addressed it. It was my best girlfriend. We were on this beautiful trip together. We had a very healing trip together, and she was shocked.
Shanan Kelley [:We were both shocked. She said, why are you doing that? I was like, I don't know.
Sarah Peterson [:I love that.
Shanan Kelley [:I don't even know.
Sarah Peterson [:I mean, I don't love that for you.
Shanan Kelley [:But then, like, we addressed it. I was like, and then it just, like, immediately.
Sarah Peterson [:Yeah. I was sitting at a campfire a few years ago with some of my oldest and dearest friends, and it ended up being that there was just maybe about 4 of us ladies sitting there. And one of the gals was like she didn't grow up with us. And so she was like, gosh. You know, thanks so much for letting me always come do this with you guys every year, and I hope I'm not, you know, a 3rd wheel type energy. And we were like, you're crazy. It's so great. You're wonderful.
Sarah Peterson [:Please. And then the other friend was like, well, I just always feel like everybody thinks I'm so dumb and everything I say is so dumb. And we're like, what? You're hilarious and wonderful. Right.
Sarah Peterson [:And then I, of course, was like, well, and I'm always in trouble because that's all I do is screw up, so everybody must be pissed at me. And then the 4th person said their thing, and we just really laughed pretty hard about what we were holding right there.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. And how ridiculous.
Sarah Peterson [:Ridiculous. Ridiculous. Yeah. But those are the tattoos of our history of our life.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, no. We that is by design. That was that was programmed into us. Yeah. But we have a job not to uphold it. We have a job to turn it around. And, you know, I listened to this amazing woman, Sherry Dunn, speak several times in person. She's an incredible she's an attorney by trade, but she has a consulting business.
Shanan Kelley [:She's this amazing black woman with just I cannot say enough good things about this woman. She has a book coming out soon called Unqualified that you all should read, but she was talking about Sherry Dunn.
Sarah Peterson [:The stories we tell ourselves around the campfire with the women.
Shanan Kelley [:Okay. So her quote that she comes to, it's until you bring attention, like, until you bring consciousness to the unconscious, it will decide your life and you'll call it fate. And it seems really you know? And it could be small things and big things, and they all have a big impact. Yeah. You know? And she gave some really great examples, like, how many of you wear bangs because someone told you your forehead was too big? You're just like, oh, man. Shoot. Bangs for life. Doing it.
Shanan Kelley [:Dang it. Right? And, like, it affects your whole life path. And so our job really is to, like, continue to bring awareness to these things that we there it's not in alignment with my core values to be unkind to myself or anyone else.
Sarah Peterson [:Okay. So in our last, like, 90 seconds together, I'm having grief that this is coming together.
Shanan Kelley [:I Know.
Sarah Peterson [:You can come back. Okay. Also, we can find you at your website shanankelley.com Okay. So find Shanan there. Follow her on all the places. If you are local Central Oregon. Go see her on a variety show because it's awesome, the nightlife show. Also, on Shanan's website, she has a list of her events for where she's at, which is kind of all over sometimes.
Sarah Peterson [:So That's right. Find her and be nice to her. I mean, if you don't,
Shanan Kelley [:I will call the police. I don't know what to find her.
Sarah Peterson [:Don't find her. If you're not nice You're not nice. Find her.
Sarah Peterson [:Too tired for that. Okay. So tie it all up first when you meet Bo. Culturally, what the medicine is, the permission part, and even try, if you can, weave in this part about being kind to yourself.
Shanan Kelley [:Oh, I mean, that was what I was going to say. It is self compassion.
Sarah Peterson [:Mhmm.
Shanan Kelley [:And people will say, like, how do you have compassion for yourself? Like, you just do it.
Sarah Peterson [:Wow. You just do it. You just do it. So even if you're not laughing yet and even if this feels out of reach for you because your grief is so heavy, just be with that part too. We're not saying something's wrong with you because you're not laughing yet. That's why I asked Shanan, was it hard to laugh? For her, no. For me, heck, yeah. It was really hard. And I still will notice, like, if I laugh hard for more than, like, maybe 3 or 4 minutes or something, that even still the muscles in my face get tired because I I need it.
Sarah Peterson [:I need more of it.
Shanan Kelley [:Yeah. I need more of it. I think too. It's easy to know that you're not being kind to yourself. If you are not having compassion for somebody else, that's like the sure indication. Yeah. And so then just bring it back.
Shanan Kelley [:Okay. Where can I be more kind to myself?
Sarah Peterson [:And,you know, maybe it means setting down your heavy load. Maybe it means, like, for just a second, testing out this, like, let your arms fall theory. And stop pressing against so hard. Which really, for a lot of people, might look like a good laugh.
Shanan Kelley [:My teacher, Ralph, says the rock isn't heavy if you don't pick it up. I know. What a smart Oh, he's the coolest.
Sarah Peterson [:You actually can't even feel it at all.
Shanan Kelley [:No. It's funny how that works. Simple math.
Sarah Peterson [:Oh my gosh. Shanan, thank you so much for being here and doing this.
Shanan Kelley [:I just love you so much. I love you so much. It's such an honor to be here, so thank you for this. And thank you, listeners.
Sarah Peterson [:Thank you for joining us on enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss. We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected. We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss. Until then, take care of yourself and remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. You have the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.
