Elisa (SP/SX 3w2 378) joins us for a rich and layered conversation that weaves together identity, performance, and the relentless pursuit of autonomy. A pole and circus studio founder with a deep instinct for self-reinvention, Elisa moves through life like a well-rehearsed act — equal parts precision and provocation. We talk about what it means to build a life around something still stigmatized by the mainstream, the tension between personal truth and social acceptability, and how visibility can be both a risk and a reclamation. Throughout, Elisa reflects on the roots of her drive — a childhood that demanded self-reliance, an early mistrust of authority, and a bone-deep resistance to being boxed in. We explore the challenges of delegation when control has always been survival, and the vulnerability required to teach, lead, and create in front of others. There’s a powerful thread here about embodiment as empowerment: how performance can become a site of healing, defiance, and radical honesty.

LINKS

Learn at The Enneagram School

https://theenneagramschool.com/

Intro Course

https://www.theenneagramschool.com/intro-enneagram-course

Get Typed

https://www.enneagrammer.com/

Sinsomnia Podcast (Dreams)

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sinsomnia/id1684154994

House of Enneagram

https://www.youtube.com/@houseofenneagram

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 - Intro

03:30 - Social blind 3 running a circus & pole studio, 'expansion' definition as triple assertive, 3's pride of business

09:19 - Perception as a social blind 3, trust and autonomy in business, being an 'idea machine'

16:34 - Sp/sx importance of atmosphere, eroticism within career

26:19 - Approval of parents as a type 3, being consumed with a fire to fulfill 'who I am', struggling during COVID and taking things personally

35:59 - Core 3 'keeps a lid' on energetic 7 and 8 fixes, 3 believing "I can do anything", learning the 'social game' in business

42:31 - Being curious in the social instinct, tracking others' gaze/values, 3w2 anticipating others' needs but not clocking social nuances

50:29 - Instructor experience, impersonal impact on others, relating to control in relationships

61:15 - Separation/boundaries in professional relationships, seeking or deflecting validation, vulnerability in the sexual instinct and performance

01:13:18 - Being a competence type, honing your craft, having an interest vs running a business, obsession with self-improvement

01:24:26 - Childhood reflections; energetic and unfiltered, not participating in early school institutions

01:34:59 - Self-worth vs social accolades, the role of teachers, seeking essential value through productivity

01:43:07 - Not identifying with victimhood, difficulties accepting help/delegation, being an emotional support child, hyper-independence

01:52:54 - Putting whole self into work, delivering excellence, 3w2 empathy can override necessary negative interactions

02:00:05 - Outro

CREDITS

Interview by Josh Lavine

Edited by Kristen Oberly

Music by Coma-Media from Pixabay

Coma-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/

Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/

---

#enneagram #enneagramtypes #enneagram3

Elisa 0:00

It's not even like, it's not as simple, like I can do it better. That almost feels inaccurate. It's that like, I'm going to do this with all my knowledge, my vision, my care, how much time and attention I put into thinking about this, I'm going to take all of that and my experience and put it into what I do for my business, and how do I summarize that? So that you understand how to take even an iota of that and apply that to you doing something for my business like that's how I feel

Josh 0:33

welcome to another episode of what it's like to be you. I'm Josh Lavine, your host, and on this show, I interview accurately typed guests about their experience as their Enneagram type, so you can understand what it's like to be each type from the inside. Today, my guest is Elisa Eloise, who is a self pressed sexual three, wing two with seven wing, six and eight. Wing, seven fixes, so that's 378, tri fix, which means triple, assertive. And this conversation was absolutely fascinating in terms of comparing at least his experience as a core throughing Two with my experience as a core through ring two, especially because so many aspects of our typing are different. I am social dominant. She is social blind. I am triple attachment. So that's 396, and she is triple assertive. And so just understanding the overlap of where our core through being two works for us like certain common through being two themes, self actualization, constant need to self improve, enjoying the spotlight, teaching, helping others. And this thing of, I think that's misunderstood about threes, of when threes become obsessed with something, or it's like an inspiration catches it catches like a fire, and there is the feeling inside of Nothing can stop me, nothing will stop me. And so all that stuff is kind of core to the assertive three structure. But despite that, it was fascinating to understand how Elisa is self actualizing without reference to the typical social constructs that we think of when we think of type three. And so this conversation defied a lot of three stereotypes that you might have read in certain textbooks. And also, it was interesting to hear how her experience of being a core three, or how her type threeness functions in her overall psyche, differs from mine in the sense that for me, as a triple attachment three, I have six to nine fixes that I feel like I'm sometimes dragging along to be as assertive as I'd like to be, whereas, for Lisa, she has seven and eight fixes, which are various sort of energies. And so her type three calibrating sensibility, or polishing sensibility, allows her to not be as flippant or rude, or as bull in a china shop as maybe she would be with another core type supported by seven and eight and so, yeah, kind of just like different opposite functions of core threeness. But again, a lot of the same core three things that we care about, especially around stuff actualization and being all I can be, and all that kind of stuff. So really good stuff in this conversation. And if you'd like to learn more about what type three is or about the Enneagram, then come check us out at the Enneagram school.com you can read all of our type descriptions on the website, as well as check out our intro course. And without further ado, I am very excited for you to learn from Elisa. Okay, so as a way in I think, let me just tell you my intention here. Okay, I have an agenda in this conversation to understand how it's possible to be a three, social blind.

Elisa 3:37

Well, it's possible.

Josh 3:38

I sort of like, I can't, just because I'm social three, I don't, I can't. It's so hard for me to even conceive of how, how a person could be a three without social and so I'm, I'm really curious about your experience. So let's, so let's, I kind of want to set this up from in a little bit of an autobiographical way. I know that you,

Josh 4:01

you started your own studio to teach pole dancing and other kinds of, other kinds of acrobatic type of,

Josh 4:12

uh, what would you call it, circus type?

Elisa 4:13

Circus, yes, circus, yeah,

Josh 4:15

yeah. So can you say it? What that is, what your studio is, what you do, and how you got into it? Yeah. So my studio is called Ultra Violet pole and Cirque in Toronto. It is a pole and circus studio. We teach adults from beginner to advanced in both circus and pole. And

Elisa 4:37

it's definitely like, everything's definitely on the more on the erotic side, because pole has its roots in in stripping, essentially or definitely,

Elisa 4:47

but I would say circus is,

Elisa 4:52

I mean, its roots are also not, you know, the most like they're pretty interesting and shady, probably shadier than than stripping, if.

Elisa 4:59

You think about it, but,

Elisa 5:02

yeah, it's, it's a great space. I love running it. It's a lot of work. I get overwhelmed all the time, but I love running it. And I started it. It's been 10 years now we're actually working on expansion, which is like, something I've dreamed about for pretty much since I started, when I started, I was already thinking of, like, where we were going to take it, and I'm going to start with sort of, like a small expansion now, because the unit next door to mine became available. So I'm like, seeing if how that's going to work, and how I can, like, marry the two together. But

Elisa 5:38

yeah, so that's what I do.

Josh 5:42

Okay,

Josh 5:44

just already, actually, the word expansion is probably worthwhile, just to comment on, because you have all three assertive types in your in your tri fix, what is?

Josh 5:56

What does expansion mean to you? What it like? What is, what's the dream?

Elisa 5:59

Elisa 6:24

Elisa 6:40

feet ceilings, like, it's not that high. It's like, barely three meters, something like that. But it's,

Elisa 6:47

it'll at least allow us, like, some growth and some space to grow. So, yeah, eventually I'd like to have a larger space, and I'd like to offer more programming. I'd like to, like, really grow our community. Have a bigger community. We have a really great studio. We have a really great curriculum I created for

Elisa 7:07

the studio, and it is really unique. I don't think other studios have what or do what we do. Like, they're very like, Oh, here's a beginner class, and you just learn some stuff. But ours is, like, very it's very specific, and it's and it's based on, like, physical development, like how bodies learn and how the nervous system works, and also how, like, the way I see it is, like, it's sort of like a skeleton I've created. And like, instructors can really, like, put, like, fill it in with their own creativity and their own individuality, but it's a really strong structure and skeleton that anyone can build from, and like anyone can use to learn any of the things we teach. If that makes sense, this is the best way to say it does. And also, I guess what I'm getting from what you're saying is that you you take students into more advanced territory than a typical studio. Yeah, we have really great instruction. Like, it's fantastic. Like, we, I would say, like, I could market a lot more, but a lot of our marketing, like, is word of mouth, because students just have such good experiences. And people hear about us and hear about how good our classes are, that that's, like, one of the main ways we get students, and we get like, you know, your students that like, continue to come all the time, because that's really where you make your money, is like people who come consistently, like, those are, that's your bread and butter in a business. Is like your repeat customers, right? People who like, need your business for their survival, almost. So, yeah, that's,

Josh 8:40

yeah, yeah.

Josh 8:43

I want to just mention that I'm hearing, I'm already hearing some three stuff, and what you're just saying, the pride of being well regarded, of getting the referrals, that word of mouth kind of thing I can relate to that certainly, yeah, yeah.

Josh 8:56

But just real quick, though, on expansion, does that mean, like, more studios? Is it, like, are you trying to create a franchise, or is it just bigger spaces or more advanced curriculum for more students?

Elisa 9:08

Or I don't think I would franchise. I don't, I don't think I maybe in the future, like maybe if I was old and I really couldn't do the stuff that I'm doing right now, I might consider it. But

Elisa 9:20

I don't think I would franchise. I think I would have more studios, or I would move to a bigger space, like, I would move to space that's like, double the size and double the ceiling height and whatnot. So that would probably be my goal when it comes to expansion. Like, I think I would prefer to, you know, like taking on the unit next door, like, wouldn't be a second studio that would just be, like, our studio growing larger, right? So I think,

Elisa 9:46

yeah, so I don't think I would have multiple studio. I have had multiple studios. It's really difficult, like I find it, so I think I would rather have one big space and then kind of go from there. Because every time you open up a studio, or do these expand.

It's like, it's, it's like, it's a new learning curve, like, you really have to adjust everything. It's like everything shifts. So it's really difficult to just, like, open up multiple spaces, if that makes sense. And like, I don't know if I'd franchise. I feel like no one would do it as good as me.

It's so true, though, I don't know, like, it's,

I feel like they'd ruin it. They would, they probably would,

yeah, yeah.

Okay, let me think about where, sorry. I mean, I know that was like, no, no, no. I actually, I loved, I mean, it's worth commenting on that actually, just, yeah, it's the three competence plus the seven fix, you know, just

the, it's just like, the truth, like I thought about this, like, it's the truth, it's true, like I thought about it, yeah, kind of, I kind of do get it, actually, though I do, yeah, you know, we'll be also, because I think I've created my business for me. So I feel like it's not even, it's not even an arrogant thing, like, oh, you couldn't be as good as me. It's like, I've created my business within the scope of what I'm capable of. Like, to just hand that off to another person, like, I

I'm crazy. Like, no one can do the things I do. Like, the No, it's not possible.

Um,

okay, I have a lot of questions about, okay, just this whole territory, what is maybe, maybe getting to the core of it, like, what's what's important to you about

about your business, or about the content that you're teaching?

Wow.

So how I'm perceived is really important,

which is interesting, because I'm social blind, but I think it's more like,

it's not about reputation. It's about like, I don't know how to put it,

I guess it's like, how do people it's like a trust like, do they trust? Like? It's almost like, I want people to put their trust in me that, like, I can do this for them, or set this up for them, or teach them. It's like, it's not Yeah, like, so how I'm perceived is, is important. I don't like it when people don't think I can't do something that's yeah. Like, when someone's like, oh, you can't do that, I'm like,

okay, whatever you know,

what else is important? Oh, my God, these questions are like, you know

why they're difficult is because what I initially want to say I feel like isn't really true. If that makes sense. Do you ever get that someone asks you a really deep question? Yes, absolutely. That happens to me. Yeah, and you want to answer, but then you're like, No, wait, that's not it. Like, what's Yeah? Well, I have had, I mean, I don't know if you relate to this, but

I think this is more like my Bermuda thing. But also social is like,

I can be so

attuned to, like, keeping a connection going, that when someone asks me question, like, it's, it's more about like, how do I say this?

It's like, it's like, my

actually, I bet that you probably don't relate to this, but I'm curious. Like, I speak, I speak. So

let me get my words around this. Hold on, take your time.

Okay, it just happened. It just that was okay. That was the thing. Yeah, where like when I turn my face this way, and I and I breathing, and I'm reconnecting to myself. I'm like, oh, right, this is, this is the self content that can actually produce an answer to a question.

But when I'm not connected to that and I'm just in the interaction, then it just feels like I'm I'm socializing, if that makes sense, right? There could be a difficulty for me to

maintain contact with another and also contact with myself at the same time. And that's been a practice, right? Yeah,

yeah, okay, that makes sense. I think so too. I think the connection is sort of like a flow state, right? So then once you get into it, it's almost like, when you ask a question like that, that really makes you go inside yourself. It's kind of like breaking the flow state that makes sense, like, I don't know, I think it's to go back to your question. I don't know why. I didn't think of this initially, but I would say, to be honest, probably the most important thing to me is autonomy. I think that's the most important thing, to be honest,

and that's why I became a studio owner. A business owner is to

not do what I want. But I knew that, like I know this might be an ADHD.

More than my Enneagram type, but I know that I cannot go to the same place for eight hours a day. I can't do it like I used to be a bartender, and there were, like, some shifts that I would end up spending, like hours in the restaurant, but usually it wasn't like that long. You know? It was like, Yo, you there for maybe six hours max. And that was even a long time, but at this point in my life, like the thought of going to any one place every single day and staying there for hours and hours, like I can't do it, like even, even my own studio, if I have like, a five hour day at the studio, I'm like, Whoa, long day, physical location, just the staleness of having been in one I think so I need to move. I can't be in any one place. I get tired. I get like,

I think, I think human beings. I think this happens to everyone, but maybe not in the same way, but especially someone with ADHD, like, we're idea machines and like, I feel like, if I'm always in one place all the time, like, it's like, I can't think my brain can't, like, expand it can't, like, do anything. Like, I'm always just getting in the same information, and you're not actually learning and growing and doing anything. I would say, maybe that's not the case for my studio, since, like, it's, it's beautiful, I've built it, and I have the ability to kind of come and go as I please for the most part. So if I have to be there for many hours on end, it's usually not that bad. But I think going to, like, I don't know,

like a fluorescent lighting, gray cubicle office, like I That sounds like death, honestly, yeah, I guess where it feels like we might be in or near self press sexual territory, like the the importance of the atmosphere and how it resonates with my I don't know, like mood, tone or

I have struggled with words around that. But no, you're right. You're right. Because I used to when I was a bartender. I worked at this one place, and our uniform was, like an LBD, like a little black dress, super cute. But I bartended another place and they wanted us to wear, like, black jeans and like this ugly t shirt and like sneakers. And I, like, I lasted there, like I was there for like, three months. I couldn't handle it.

I couldn't, literally, I was like, if I can't look nice where I'm going, it's not for me. Like I Yeah, yeah.

Is it so autonomy super important for you? I get this so that, plus the kind of freedom to just shift environments or change, which is kind of not answered anyone. Yeah, have the freedom to expand when you need to expand, and kind of do that thing. But what about the the, like, the actual content, like, you're teaching, you're teaching pole dancing, you're teaching circus you're teaching stuff that has an erotic twist, or actually not twist, but like, eroticism is at the center of it. Yeah, you know,

it's not like an add on, like, ornamentation. It's part of the, the soul of the thing, at least it seems to me, yeah. And so that's, yeah, what? What is it that like? Can you tell me how you got into it? What grabbed you about it, how you knew it was for you?

Um, so okay, it's actually a funny story. So I used to have this friend, this nine, nine, wing nine friend. I should probably nine wing one. And we were 20 or 21 when we met and we started pole dancing together. No, we were 20. Because I remember I was 20 when I started pole dancing. She was like, let's take she was like, this hot Russian girl. She's like, let's take pole dancing. So we did. I was obsessed. I like, my whole life. I like, I don't really want to get into, like, traumatic childhood, but my parents never let me be a dancer, and all I wanted to do is be a dancer. Like I just dreamed of being this, like, perfect ballerina on stage, and my parents were my sister in ballet, and not me. So it was almost like a double slap in the face,

so white when I was, like, 20, and she was like, let's try poll. I was like, Yeah, of course. Like, I had kind of heard about these classes, and I had my own money to spend, and I was like, let's go. So we went and took pole classes. And then, like, a year and a half into us taking pole, I was obsessed, like, obsessed, like, I would go as as often as I could, like, two, three times a week like it was, it was like, I couldn't, like, get enough of it, the sexiness of it, like the eroticism the dancing, like how powerful it makes you feel, because you can actually do these things with your body. And I was young and fit enough that I could pick up, not easily, but I could pick it up. Let's just say that.

And then, like, a year and a half in, we found out that the studio we were going to in Richmond Hill, where where we live, was closing. And she was like, let's open up our own pole studio, and I have a seven fix. So I was like, okay, like, literally, um, so we did. So we purchased a franchise, like, because that studio was franchise at the time, and we opened up our own.

Studio, and it, it was like, I let's, I lasted a year. I could not handle her. She was just like, still, your Russian friend? Mm, hmm, yeah, okay, we're not friends. I haven't talked to her since then. That was like, 2008 so we have not talked since then. This girl was just like, we just didn't vibe. We just did not like we I was such a baby. I was like, 22 years old. We got like, a loan from the bank that her mom co signed for us, like, just, like, literally so. But like, after a year, I sold my half of the studio to her, made $0 was actually in the red, because, like, I had spent so much money on the studio, and we obviously didn't make our money back in a year. So I got a job bartending, and I just, like, paid off my debts, and, like, still train circus and pole, and I started performing pole, like I started go go dancing. Loved go I only recently retired from go go dancing. So I was gogo dancer. I was pole dancing. I started performing. I was obsessed. I wanted to perform more. I was taking more circus. And then I was teaching here and there. But I made so much money bartending that I stopped teaching so and yeah, so anyway. So then in 2015 I thought I was bartending, and I was like, You know what? I kind of don't want to do a job that's not like in my industry, like I want to focus fully on, like, pole, circus, whatever, like, either be a performer, be a instructor, like, just, I didn't want to bartend anymore. So that's when I was like, I'm going to open my own studio. So I ended up buying a studio that already existed and, like, doing a lease takeover, but it was a very small space, so I plan on growing it. And then, yeah, then the rest is here we are today. So that's how I got into it, and that's how I ended up where I was. But how did I, like, open up a studio? It really was that Russian girl, Nadia, that was like, let's open a studio. And I was like, Okay. And then I realized, Oh, I think I can, like, do this, yeah, yeah. But the I don't know I used to, I'll use the phrase, like, reckless self belief. Just like, yeah, sure, I'll just do it well, like, we'll build a studio. Yeah, you were, how young at the time, 2222

so Didn't you also were you also in school for a vocal performance? Oh, yeah, yeah, I was, yeah. I was doing a BFA in vocal music at York University, and I dropped out to open up my business. Well, I had already opened my business, and I realized, like, what am I doing? I was like, I don't want to do this. And I dropped out. Was the school? Was the school a grad school program? No, it was my bachelor like, I never did. Yeah. Okay, okay. And so you, so you dropped out of school to build this studio,

sort of didn't work out with your business partner. You sold it, got into bartending and then, but still had the dream, and then ended up kind of, and also wore go go dancing, sort of to support yourself. Yeah, okay, yeah.

I considered going into into stripping. Actually, it's something that I've always like, even now, since I have a partner right now, you know, not really, probably not something I'm gonna go into. But I love strippers, and I love the idea of it. I don't know if you want to get into that, but I did end up going, Yeah, I didn't end up going into it at the time, because I had some stripper friends, and I was making so much money bartending, and they were like, honestly, like, you may as well just stay where you're making money. And so I did, but I was something I considered for sure. I don't know what it is you Yeah, you considered it, but you were persuaded not to, just because you were really a self press concern. It was just better money to bartend, yeah, basically, yeah, yeah. And I was making cold, hard cash, like I was, and it was such a like, I wouldn't say it's easier, like, maybe it is, maybe it's not, it's hard to say, but yeah, like, it was just, I just ended up. I was more like, I'm already here, I'm already doing this job. I already know it. I was being promoted to supervisors. So I was like, I may as well just stay here. Like, that was why? Like, yeah,

how do you relate to

the I guess I'll just use the like, the social stigma around, I don't know, eroticism, female, dancing, stripping, all that kind of

stuff. When I started, I found it really annoying, because I had a lot of, like, straight male friends, and they were huge dicks about it, but I kind of stopped being friends with straight males. Like, I, okay,

that's

good. That's good. I'm like, I, you know, I, I have a saying, like, the trash takes itself out, but like, it's kind of like it just it, it happens. So organically, I have nothing against men. I love men I like. I'm a I'm a very Neo feminist, but I am, I am. I have nothing against men. You will not hear me sit here and say, I hate man, or anything like that. I love my partner. He is amazing. He's an amazing man.

Like, I love men.

But I, yeah, I felt that group in particular was, like, they were, they were like, it was like, underhanded massage. They would say, like, misogynistic jokes and stuff like that. I was like, I'm just not gonna hang out with you guys anymore. So yeah, it was bad at first. Now I don't think I'm in those spaces. Like, I don't put myself. Like, it's funny, because sometimes I hear students talk about it, and I'm like, Oh, no one ever says anything to me about being a pole dancer. But like, I'm never in a space or situation where someone's going to be like, Oh, you're a pole dancing slut, or what I can I swear. Like, I don't know if that's Yes, please. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Okay, yeah, but like, I've gotten it. I've gotten men say, like, oh, you're a pole dancer. Come dance on my pole or whatever. Stupid shit. Men say, like,

yeah, those men, not all men, not all men. I'm not Yeah, I'm sorry, but yeah, so I don't feel like I'm but my parents don't approve of what I do, and they tell me all the time, yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. And because this is something that struck me when we first talked, is that your your parents don't approve, but it doesn't really affect you, right? Or does it? Um, it, does it, it doesn't like it, does it doesn't in the sense that, like, I'm doing well, I'm doing it. I'm gonna, I'm not gonna do it anyway, doing Yeah, I'm not gonna not do it because you don't like it, but it does in the sense that, like, Yeah, I mean, I did some therapy this past year, and that therapy was really to, like, get over some childhood traumas, and this was one of them, was like, Oh, I'm in my mid 30s, and my mom, like,

doesn't love what I do. Like, that hurts, that hurts my feelings, that, like, hurts me, like it's sort of like an acknowledgement of the feeling, you know, I wondered about that when we last talked, because, especially as a heart type and as, I mean, as a three, right? It's like, you're, I don't know, I experience, for better or worse, you know, like, it's, I'm very affected by the approval of my parents, my the people that mattered to me, you know, I want them to believe in me and to approve of what I do and when they don't, it's not gonna necessarily, like, Okay, I don't know. So if they said, Don't do this, we don't approve. Would you like not do it? No, I wouldn't. And I so this is okay. Let me actually say a little just this will be useful context.

So when I was 24

I, you know, I had, like, gone to an Ivy League school, and I came back, and I was, like, going through a big philosophical journey around, like, realizing how, how inauthentically I had been living, and I never done anything for myself. I always been jumping through society's hoops and all this, all the classic kind of social Bermuda, three stuff, you know.

And I had a really big

and there's, I don't, there's a whole history which I want, I don't have to get into. But when I, when I was 24 i i had this big, this big realization. And I realized that I

wanted to live authentically, and I wanted to do and what that meant for me at the time was I wanted to become a professional piano professional piano player, and so that's what I did. And so I didn't, I didn't know how to play piano, and I learned, and I got a job at as a, as a dueling Piano Bar player in, oh, my god, really? Yeah. So I play, so I was a and I played piano and sang, you know, four or five nights a week for years, for like, six years, as part of that's incredible phase, yeah,

and ran into a lot of disapproval, as you can imagine, from, you know, my parents, grandparents, you're throwing away your Princeton education, whatever like.

But I was so consumed with a fire that I had to do this. And this is kind of, I guess, I find

myself actually kind of a it's I didn't put this together. How much I relate to the way that you like Go, go dancing. Just took a hold of you. You know, that's how, that's how it was for me too. With piano, was just like, I can't not do this. If I don't do this, I will. I will die a living death. Yeah, and I can't, and it was enough to sustain

like a certain kind of fortitude, despite resistance from my parents grandparents and social context and so, oh, wow. I guess this is something kind of important to say about three in general that I think is I don't know, not talked about enough, or not understood well, is that when something, when something hits at the at the level of like, this is what I have to do

for myself. This is who I am, you know, like this some, whatever this thing is allowing me to express, or what this path of self development, or whatever it is like this thing is essential

to me, and there's a kind of, like a fire that gets lit inside that has to be honored.

And I don't know, do you have is that? Do you relate to that phrasing?

Yeah, I do. I do. And it's funny, because I'm also thinking, like, it's interesting, but I think.

Think Joseph, who's like, my best friend, is, I think he's like that too. Like he gets, he's like, not a three, four, wing three, but he gets like, if he has gets his like mind on something like, you can't, you can't convince him that he's not doing it. That makes sense, you know? And it's like, interesting, because I think the same thing of myself, and I think that in my life, in my experience, I almost feel like it.

I've always been like that, but it wasn't until I got my partner, my my partner, who I'm with now, we've been together 10 years, pretty much since I opened my studio. And it feels like I wouldn't say it hurts him that I'm like this, but it definitely affects him, because he's very opposite. He's very like, slow down, think about it, research. And meanwhile, I'm like, full speed ahead, like running towards something maybe I shouldn't even be running towards, and that's definitely hurt us in the past. So, yeah, it's interesting. You're saying this because I think it's a good thing. I think in I think covid was really what taught me to, like, kind of slow that down, though, like it almost felt like it dulled my spirit. I don't know if you had this happen. I don't know what covid was like for you. Some people thrived in it. I did not, you know. So I think it kind of like it almost feels like it's been, what, four or five years since covid, and I'm still, like, recovering from this, like, dampening of that spark. Like it's, if that makes sense, yeah, like it's, it was I had a rough time over covid. Yeah, really rough time. What was the deal? So

my partner and I decided to invest in a larger studio space. It was like a beautiful, 44 foot ceiling, 7000 square foot warehouse. It was a lot of money. It was stunning, and we signed the lease for it on February 27

2020, oh, that's brutal. Wow, yeah. So we invested all this money and tried to open it and like, we couldn't. And it was like, We, I feel like we maybe almost didn't make it as a couple. Like, we, it was so hard on both of us, like, and it was like, it was, it was so sad, because he had always helped me with stuff, with my business, and had always been there for me and extremely supportive. But this was, like him really putting himself forward and really just like immersing himself in my world. And you know, even though business is such a risky endeavor, like I had never experienced this kind of loss, so it sucks that the first time I kind of like pulled him in, it was, like a huge loss for both of us. So, like, we lost a ton of money, time, effort, like it was just awful. So there was a whole bunch of issues with the landlord, like it was just a mess, and so recovering from that, like it's yeah. So that was a huge it almost felt like when we lost the space, like it almost felt to me, like I had lost a person. Was like I had to grieve something. So it was, yeah, it was like, I have my space now. We've been there for four years. I'm super happy. We're ready for expansion. It's been amazing. But,

yeah, it was, so it was a big I could imagine. I mean, just, and I hope I'm not projecting too much my own threeness onto you, but it feels like there's, I mean, what I'm experiencing as Resident about that is like, you know,

so much of as a three like, our identities are invested in what we do, for better or worse. And it's like, this is manifest destiny. I've bought the space. This is like what I'm supposed to have done with my life. This is who I am now. This is like my new home for myself, my life, my work, my purpose, and it can't happen anymore. Just, it's like, it's not just a grief about a space, right? It's a grief about an identity, a dream. Yeah, I was like, it was, like a throw punch, like it was, it was horrific. And I, you know, it's funny you're saying about the identity thing, I still feel

that I, yeah, like, I take stuff so personally. It's like, really sad. It's like, I kind of, you know, that's something I was also working on in therapy, and I'm working on in like, other ways now, because I'm not seeing my eye, not therapy right now. But it's, it's hard to like, it's so hard to like, sorry, go ahead. Well, what do you mean by personal? What do you take personally? Oh, my God, anything like if someone says something like, sometimes, if someone says something nice about a different studio, I'm like, mad. Like, how dare you?

How dare you? Like, you know, it's, it's like you're, it's like your partner calling someone else attractive. You're like, Excuse me. Like, you know, and like, over time, like, I I've even gotten over that. Like, if, like, my partner would never, he's such a good man. But if he was ever like, oh, that girl's really cute. Like, he'd never say that. But if he did, like, I think I probably wouldn't care as much, because, like, we're so comfortable, and I know he'd never.

But like, it's one of those things where someone, yes, says something about nice with someone else's studio. I'm like, Excuse me, like

or like, if myself, one of my students is going somewhere else, like, I would never say anything to them, I really internalize it. Like, I don't, I don't let anyone else like, I know I'm I'm crazy. Like, I need to chill and like, it's not offense, offensive, but, yeah, but yeah, I'll feel it. I'm working on it, trying to place that Enneagram. I mean, I guess there's like three competition and, like the scarcity of positive attention, and I sort of, I get that, but also you have seven and eight fixes too, right? It's like eight and seven kind of, I don't know

something energetically

about that that I'm tuning into, but actually, one thing I wanted to talk ask you about is you said this was fascinating to me, that

you feel that being a core three that helps you sort of keep a lid On otherwise, what would be like a much more explosive, or, I don't know, assertive, inappropriate, or whatever, type of like expression, especially with seven eight fixes, yes, whereas, interestingly, for me, is this is something that's different about us. With nine and six fixes, I feel like three is kind of like this engine that's trying to pull, like this train, you know, that's lagging behind me. Like, nine wants to take it easy and slow. Six is like, I don't know, am I doing this, right? But the threes out front, like, no, let's fucking go. Yeah, you've got this. It's just, it's interesting how our core three things kind of

function differently, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I find that really interesting,

because I guess three is the most assertive out of the attachment types, like 369, like, it's so it's pulling you out. And for me, I feel like seven and eight are, like, if I was social blind with a seven and eight fix, and like, any other type or any core type. Like, if I was core seven or core eight, I think I'd be a mess, or I'd at least be like, not a very like, I'd be untenable, probably to be around like you probably would like, hate me. But I think because I'm three, and because I have this, first of all, I have this belief that I can do and learn anything.

So I believe it. And when you believe things, sometimes, not always, but sometimes it's usually enough. I relate to, yeah, it's enough. And then also I think the three, like, there's an inherent socialness to three. So I think being social blind, and then being fear three has almost saved me, because three wing two, especially, like, if I was three and four, I would just be a bitch. But three wing two, it's like, it's true, the three wing two is, like, a bit more warm. It's a bit more like, outgoing and affection. I'm very affectionate person. Like, I don't have any issues saying nice things to people. Like, they come out really easily. And so it's, it's easy. It's been, I wouldn't say it's been easy for me to learn how to be social, and also, like, I've done a bunch of jobs, like bartending, and like, bartending is hospitality, like you basically, you know, and I, when I was a bartender, I had to, basically, like, it was a bartender. I was a bartender in like, a financial district, so it was like all men that came in. So you really have to learn the social game. And then being a studio owner has been so like illuminating in the social world. Just say more about the social game. What is the social game? And then I'm curious how it connects to business. So the social game is how you interact with other people, and it's like how you're perceived. It's the things you say, it's how you like, let the it's like, the the dance that you guys do, you guys are, like, hanging out, and you're, you know, figuring stuff out together. And

I feel like social sometimes, is like, it's, it is what you say, but it's, you know, how, like, you're like, Hi. How are you? I'm fine. How are you? My God, nice weather we're having, like, you know, that kind of thing. It's like, it, but it's, it's like, it's banal and meaningless, but it's actually not like, we actually live in those little things. And sometimes, like, you might think, oh, like people say all the time, I hate small talk. I hate small talk. And it's like, okay, we get it like, You're boring, fine, like, and you just can't think of anything more interesting to say, and you hate it, like, whatever. But for me, I always think like, what's true, but for me, I always think, like, it's like, it's like, we're just saying, it's like, we're making nice noises at each other. It's like, I make little cute noises at my cat, you know, and she knows I'm like, nice, and she like, rubs against me. It's like, it's just telling someone else that you're nice. Like, that's all that is. And it's important. Like, I think, right? Like, it's important. Am I doing it? I'm just laughing because your seven pics is so funny to me. It's, it's like, because, well, you have this, like, willingness to just be flipping about something, but also you're saying things that are really precise, like, accurate. I haven't disagree with anything you've said. It's just funny, yeah, like, it's a game, and it's like, I have.

To think about it, like, I can't, like, and it's exhausting. Like, sometimes I'm literally, like, I can't speak to people anymore. Like, I I, if you want to talk to me, I'm going to be a bitch. Like, it's like, I can't put on this. And it's not that I'm a bitch all the time, or that my default is the bitchiness, but it's sort of like, it's just a boundary that sometimes you have to set up eventually, where I'm like, I'm tired, you know. So what did you have to learn, like, in terms of being social blind, like you mentioned, you mentioned that like Joseph helped you kind of understand social the point of it, and also that you had to learn it in terms of, like, you're building a business, that it has a community as a huge part of it, you know?

Well, I had to learn a lot. I never really like, it's so funny. I wish Joseph were here, because he probably laughed. But it's like, I've had to learn not to be like a cunt, like I not like, I'd say the most important lesson I learned is you can't just say anything that comes to your head, like you can't just, like, blurt it out. Like, that's not okay.

And it's worse, because I have ADHD and I have a lot of vocal stims. And like, if you lived with me, you might hate it, or, like, if you ever had to share space with me, like, I can be really fucking annoying my partner, like, is really good about it. Like he never complains, and if he, like, he has earphones, he'll pop them in if I'm being really annoying. I also sing and play music. I sing all the time. I'm always singing something, like, it's so in public you have to kind of dim that down. Like you can't just, like, walk around saying stuff and like, I'm extremely crass. Like, Joseph and I have spent like, our entire like, we met we were 14, so we were still kids, and we were, like, crass as fuck, like, when we were younger. So I had to learn to kind of, like, tone that down.

I'm extremely blunt. I had to really dial that back, especially as a studio owner, I basically had to learn that, like, other people, like, have feelings, and you can't just, like, say whatever you want, because, like, you'll say something, and it actually won't even mean that much to you, but it will, like, hurt them. Like, I didn't, I didn't know that, like, I didn't think about it. Like, when you're social blind. You don't like

you don't automatically care about other people like you. How do I put this? You do, but you don't care about them in a superficial sense. Like social is like I have to care about like you reacting to me in this in this interaction, and I do like I'm having fun here. And like, I respect you, and you seem to know a lot about what you're talking about, and you're great, and I've heard great things from Joseph, but like, so this is fine, but like, if I'm meeting someone on the street, or if I'm, like, talking to some of the studio, and I'm kind of, like, I don't really care what you're saying. Like, I can't, like, act like I don't care. Like, I have to,

like, not feign interest, but I actually try to be genuinely interested, you know,

like, you know, sorry, I was just gonna, I've heard, like, I watch couples therapy, and I've heard Dr ornis Say, you have to be curious. And I think that's what I've really tried to practice, is like, I'm not, I'm not faking being interested. I'm actually trying to be curious. Yeah, if that makes sense, for the purpose of what?

For the purpose of, like, not being a bitch, I guess, like having some sort of like, because I do, I am, like an extrovert, like I would consider myself an introverted extrovert. So with the right people, I get my energy from other people. Like, if I'm teaching a great class, my students are all having fun. And like, we're all just like, kicking and vibing. Then, like, I feel amazing after, you know, I'm tired, but I feel amazing. But,

yeah, so I,

I guess, yeah, sorry, it was a long Well, I'm trying to tease out, like, because you do have, okay, you have seven and eight wing seven in your tri fix. And there's a lot of like, flippants and like, who cares and dismissiveness that can come with with that, right? Yeah. And so it's like teasing that out, teasing out that versus, like, social blind or not, sort of not caring. I guess one way I think about social is this

is maybe, like a compressed way of understanding it, but it's like, when you when you when you meet, when you meet someone, there's like, an immediate way that I can contextualize them as, like, the baseball card version of who they are. Like, here's their stats, here the organizations they belong to, here's the kind of here's the category of social that they belong to, like,

not that, not that I could populate like a spreadsheet or whatever, or, actually, maybe I could, but it's, it's not like a spreadsheet comes into my mind. It's just sort of an awareness of, like, okay, this person is, I don't know, a dancer, or they were on an athlete, or they were probably in a frat as a kid, or they're fighting, or, you know, this, like these social archetypes,

and there's.

Kind of way,

let's see. And almost, I hate to use the word formulaic, but there's a kind of, like, way that certain archetypes of people relate to each other, you know, across the kind of social void. Anyway,

my point is, is that there's this aware of, there's this awareness of, like, what type of person you are,

what I would expect to be inside, like important to you, what your social boundaries are, what you would what kind of behavior you would want to experience. For me to feel like, seen and respected and with social blind, my experience of most people who are social blind is that they're just not tracking that. At least it's not they can summon themselves into that awareness if they really like, open their eyes and like, look, but it's just so not happening for them in a natural way.

But this is why it's confusing for me to

like, find the wormhole between my inner universe and yours, because as a three I imagine that you're also, on some level, tracking other people's gaze and what, what's what they what's valuable to them, or something like that. So I don't know,

um,

I think I am actually tracking that, in a sense, but I think it's more subconscious, like it's kind of under the surface, like I'm not. I'm not consciously, like pinpointing all these details and like writing out the formula or the baseball card, like I'm not.

I think because,

you know, it might actually be like,

like, a trauma response, because I grew up with someone who,

what a nine one who was very like,

like, not very honest about what they were feeling or about what they expected. So I thought I it's almost like I had to, like, know what other like? It's like I have to anticipate this person's needs for my own safety. I see, yeah, so I think I do pick up on that, but it actually maybe even has nothing to do with my type and has helped me be social because I was talking to Joseph about this earlier today, where I was talking about how being a three wing two, I feel like I can really anticipate people's needs around me, and I've like, it's, it's a skill I think maybe I've learned, or I've taught myself for something, but

it's something that I think has also helped Me as a social, blind person, yeah, the interpersonal, twoness, that makes sense, yeah? And then I think if I've had to do it for, for, like, trauma, like, it's something like, I'm, I kind of am always scanning. I don't know that. I'm always hyper conscious of it, though, or hyper aware of it. It's sometimes like,

sometimes it registers in me, almost as like, a like, it's all, it's like, you get a weird feeling, and then you're like, oh, I have to, like, think about this later. And then later I'll be like, Oh, that person actually said something weird or did something weird, and I didn't clock it right away. Like, I find I have this, like, delayed reaction, which also might be the social blindness, whereas later I'll be like, Oh, wait, that was weird. Like, that happens to me all the time with social interactions in the moment, I have no fucking idea what's happening, and then later I'm like, Oh, that was so weird. Like, that was not okay. That makes sense. So it's like, I do actually realize it. It's just a very delayed response, like, I'm not in the moment always, like pinpointing something is, I'm getting better at it, though. That tracks, that tracks, yeah, I kind of relate to that from, like, my sexual blind spot where it's like, I don't know, hours after an interaction, my somebody will say, Hey, did you notice that? Like, so and so was trying to flirt with you. And I'm like, oh, that's what that was.

Oh, you know, yeah, you pick it up later, yeah? Much to you know, whatever. So well, yeah, cuz, like the third instinct is still there, like it's a blind spot, but the that's not actually an accurate term. It's just not as it's just the third thing. So the other two are more important, because that's just the way your brain is wired. But the third thing is not blind. It's just, you don't see it as much, but it's still there. If that makes sense, it does. I actually do think blind spot is an accurate term, but it's but I agree, like, you can focus your attention there if you choose. Yeah, it is. It's not like, it's not happening at all. It's not, yeah, off. It's just it's in the right. I mean, I guess, yeah, I guess, like, we think like, or I think of, I'm going to speak for myself, like, if you say someone's like, blind, I think they can't see. But really, in the literal sense, blind people usually have some vision. I mean, if we're being extremely literal. So maybe the term is accurate. I don't know. I don't love it, though, because when someone says, Oh, you're social blind, I'm like, yeah. But again, it doesn't mean I.

Like, don't ever think of anything social. But is this like, is this your three response of like, don't tell me, I can't do social. Maybe. Okay, maybe. But you know what? I don't really know that many people with Enneagram really just would be me and Joseph talking. So it's nice to talk to other people who know about it. It really is okay. Okay.

Do you so as through being two,

do you have, I

imagine this is true. You were kind of already alluding to it, but

like drawing a sense of satisfaction from helping your students self actualize

in the in the kind of domain that you're helping teach

them,

you know, I like I do and I don't I, you know? Yeah, it's funny, like I love teaching. I feel, you know, but it's, you know what it is. It's really interesting lately. It's something I've actually been grappling with lately because I'm teaching too much. And there's, there is a such thing as too much of a good thing. And as a studio owner, I don't love the relationship I have with teaching, because it always feels like, Oh, we're I can't find anyone to teach this class, so I have to teach it. So, kind of being forced into doing it gives this weird sort of, like, and then it's, it's, it's a difficult job, like, it's a physical job. You have to be fully on, like, focused on your students for the whole time. I have to come up with new fucking things to teach them every week. Like, it's exhausting. It's planning. I have to go to go to the studio. It's not like I can just sit here on my computer and, you know, talk to the phone or whatever, like some multitasker and do other things while I'm working. Like, I have to go to the studio and be there and talk to people. People always want to talk to me and whatever. So it's, it's like, it's, can be really exhausting to teach.

Yeah, I also like, I like being on display. Like, I like being center of attention. Yes, like, Joseph and I talk about this all the time. He, like, hates it. I'm like, No, I like it. I like, want to be desired and like, looked at. And

so it's Yeah, but it's interesting. Like, I don't know that I get the same like, I'm proud of my students. I love them. I don't gate keep anything. Like, I'm, I'm, I want them to have all the information they need and like, I'll help them do anything I do. Think it's my job as someone who's been doing this for so long to pass on all this information. But I don't know that. I'm like, Oh my God. I'm like, so happy that you did it. Like, I, yeah. Just like, Great, let's work on the next thing. Like, I, yeah. I don't know. I just don't I don't know. I just don't feel like, like I'm happy, like I'm proud, but I always feel like it's not about me, like this is their journey. Like I really don't make it about me, like I really, I think that's probably also what makes me a good instructor. Is sometimes people are teachers because they make it about them, but like, I literally my classes are not about me, and I think that's why they sometimes get so exhausting. So maybe I should make it a bit more about me, but it's like, I'm self completely selfless. Like, this is all about you and your journey. I'm here to help. And like, that's it. Like, I'm not going to take credit for your accomplishments. So like, I yeah, I don't know why I'm like that, though, because that doesn't sound very three, does it? It's making my brain short circuit, because I'm really Yeah,

yeah. Let me where do I go with that?

What I was expecting you to say was something like, like, yeah, as a three wing two, I love having an impact on people and inspiring them. And, you know, being the kind of person who people like, look up to and and feel inspired by.

And I mean, so I do get, I do get the burnout situation and the kind of begrudging I had to fucking, you know, some myself to get, you know, to fucking teach a class. You know, I get that.

But yeah, no, I wasn't prepared for the almost like impersonalness of the of your answer,

with a three, with a with a two fix, or, sorry, a two wing, yeah, um, I don't know. Maybe that's being social blind. I have no idea. It could be, I could be, yeah, like, I just, but you know what it also though, is, I think there's something too about it's, you know, triple assertive. It's just sort of like you do have, like, an energy, like, with the eight fix, there's a, there's a more self contained, like, I'm over here, you're over there. Like, this is, I'm doing my thing. You're doing your thing. I will. I'm going to impact you with this thing I'm offering, and then you're going to take that and do whatever you want with it. But there's a kind of, like, there's not what the nine fix, a kind of melding of energy is.

No, you're actually, so you're so right. That's very true. Like, I like Joseph, and I talk about this all the time, because I also like, like, Joseph's the type of person. Like, I started talking about him a lot because he's like, he's like a sibling. We're like.

Opposed, but

we're, we're so opposite in that sense, because, like, if I'm doing something like, let's say, in the past, like, I, I dated a guy in high school that he didn't like, like, he'd be like, Why are you dating this guy? Blah, blah, blah. Like, he would try to, like, almost convince me not to do it, but with me, and I think it is an eight fix thing. Like, I would tell my friend if I didn't think that they were doing something that I didn't like like, I would definitely vocalize. It's not that I don't speak up for myself, but I don't tell people what to do. You know? I don't, I don't really tell it doesn't feel natural for me to tell my friends what to do like I I actually don't do that, if that makes sense. Like, it's not so when it comes to teaching like, for sure, I tell you what to do, then like, and I can step into that role. Or, you know, even with my partner, if we're like, there are times where he tells me what to do, there's in with his strengths and vice versa, like I can step into that role right away. But with with people, I feel like this sort of, like, I don't want to control it, like I'm supposed to control you, because I do feel this separation between us, like I can't make you do anything. You know, I don't feel that sort of like manipulation, that I think social, socials feel like I'm, I don't manipulate people like I don't even try it. I don't want someone to ever do something because I'm, like, forcing you or coercing you in some way. So, yeah, I guess, like, it's, it's interesting. But I it's partially this, like, eights have this, like, because my dad is an eight, he's, like, very complicated man. He's 864,

and so I have some experience with eights, and he's like, this too. Like, they're like, it's very like, I care about you, but I don't care you know. Like, I'm not gonna, like, I'm not gonna go out of my way to like, make you do something like, they're not manipulative. It's like, what you see is what you get. I mean, that might not always, yeah, it's not enmeshed. It's bounded, right? It's like, yeah, two solid block entities interacting, as opposed to getting entangled in each other. It's what you said about like, the nine just get enmeshed and I'm like, not like that. I don't get in mesh. Like, I'm here to help. But like, it's you, like, if you're hiring me to teach you, it's not about me, like, I'm just gonna, you know, so I guess I also maybe that's part of why it's so exhausting for me, though, because I don't really put myself, maybe I should be thinking of it in a different lens, because it is exhausting to like, really, just because I like Kiki, I like back and forth, like me and Joseph can hang out for hours. We can spend days together. We can travel together, same with me and my partner, because there's like, a back and forth. But when you're it's just you like being the,

you know, like, That's exhausting. Like, I don't want that, you know, yes, sorry. I feel like I tangented.

How do you so I guess maybe something I'm kind of understanding at this point is that your business really is

for you, you know, it's like, it's, it's a bit, it's a,

I'm not sure this is the right word for it, but it's like, it supports a lifestyle, you know, yes, yeah,

yeah, it totally does. It's, it does, like, it's, it's something I created. And let me say, like, what I mean by that is, like, supports the lifestyle that's, like, personal. It allows you to stay in your own energy. It allows, it gives you the freedom to do what you want to do. But the I don't know, like, the meaning and vocation and, like, I don't know, sense of self actualization or drawing from it is not necessarily the impact that you're having on your students. It's kind of like,

is that true? Am I overstating it? Um, it's true. Like, we definitely want to have an impact, but I guess it's just not,

I don't know, like, we definitely want to have an impact like, and we do, but I think,

I think especially with adults like people don't really know how to center themselves or really do things for themselves. So I think actually, like learning and teaching in this way where, like, I

I think it might actually be better for our business than, like, the enmeshment. Oh, I understand that. Yeah, I get that. I think it means that the individual can really shine, like, authentically, really, you know, like, as it as an instructor, like, because, like, I look at, for example, my parents, my parents don't like what I do, because, like, I don't know my mom's like a nine like she sees me as like an extension of herself, like she doesn't see me as like a separate human being, like I'm your kid. Yeah, you gave birth to me, you raised me, whatever, and did a great job, but like, I'm still not you. I'm not, like, a good choir, like church girl, like I'm not who I am. So you have these expectations, but like, they're not really,

you know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's almost like when you have kids, or when you.

Teaching someone like your goals should be, I want you to be able to safely execute this without me, because otherwise, what's the point? Like, you know, you shouldn't need, you know, like Dumbledore had to die. Like, you can't just have daddy around all the time, you know. So, if that makes sense, like, yes, you need to, kind of, like, set your little birdies free and let them live their own life otherwise, like, why? What's the point? Like, they're never, they're always going to depend on you, and that's not necessarily good. But, I mean, I guess in some way you want them to depend on you, because you want them to come back to your business, but they will. So,

yeah,

yeah.

All right, no, I don't know what else to say there. I just, I don't know how to tie bow on that. But I found that whole discussion really striking, because, yeah,

it's, there's such a degree of, like, Respect for others sovereignty, and just like, you're you, I'm me, this is, you know, you're here because it's a part of your journey. And for the hour that we're together, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna offer you this class, and then you're gonna go take that however you take it. There's something that feels kind of, I

don't know, almost like, refreshingly, like, separate about that, actually, yeah. Like, do you, I guess? Like, I

is that? Like, not what? That's not what other people do. This is me as a social blind I'm always like, so what are you guys doing? Like, I just, I don't know, you know, like, I'm just sort of figuring stuff out and then being like, oh, that's just something I do. Not everyone does this or vice versa. Well, let me put it this way for me, like I do, I do executive coaching,

and it's like, deep one on one relationships. It's, it's adjacent to a certain kind of therapy, you know, and it's,

and I work with, you know, I work with founders and investors who, especially with founders like kids, you know, their identities, invest in their business and stuff. They come to me and they're, they're one of the, one of the ways that I've had to grow as a coach, is to maintain more separateness and not to feel

let's see how to put not to not to

overly draw a sense of social nourishment and validation from a kind of accidental enmeshment with my clients, or like the satisfaction that I'm providing something that's really valuable for them. They're coming back to me. They really value me and my relation and all that kind of stuff

that that that was a blind spot for me earlier in my career as a coach, and it was very painful to discover because, because I realized, like, just, you know, I I realized that, like as clients, you know, these relationships are not supposed to last forever. You're supposed to coach someone. They, they, they, they take what they get from you, and then they go and on their merry way, just like you said, like they leave the nest. And there can be, I think, with the enmeshment stuff of the attachment, especially with three wing two plus triple attachment,

a hidden kind of grabbiness, you know, of like, like, of course, I want you to succeed, but I want you to be grateful to me. I want to maintain our connection. And when I realized that that was happening as clients were like departing and I was like grieving, that was hard, you know. So I've had to learn a lot more. I've had to learn more

just, I don't know, preemptive boundedness with my clients, and it's made me a much, a much more effective coach to to maintain separation. And, you know, it's much healthier. But that's like we talk about transference and countertransference in these kinds of coaching relationships. That's one. That's how countertransference was showing up for me. So what exactly is the transference? Is it like energy? Well, just the, I guess the term, it just means how, how your clients are projecting their psychological material from early relationships onto you, and then countertransference is how you're doing the same with them. And so as a as a therapist or a coach, it's really important to be aware of the ways that countertransference is happening. It's just a fancy academic term to just say, how are your psychological patterns showing up and occluding the way you see your clients, or are able to show up for them and what they need? Because, especially if you're a coach and you're,

I don't know

if you're if your psychological dynamics of enmeshment are playing out with your clients, then one of the things that prevents is you being able to tell them hard truths when they need to hear it, because that can feel like it will disrupt your safety with them. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, I mean, that's a whole thing to get into, but so it's interesting

that you're saying this, because it's like sometimes, like when my clients tell me I'm a good teacher, or they compliment me. It

gets like, I get immediately uncomfortable. It's almost like, No, you're not supposed to do that. I'm supposed to be supporting you, not like, the other way around. It's nice. Like, like, I want like, I feel good when they say these things and I'm like, oh my god, yeah, I'm a good teacher. Like, I'm excited, but i i.

Do feel really uncomfortable right away because I'm like, I don't know how to deal with that. Like, I don't. I mean, I'm not great with compliments, like I am and I'm not, but,

yeah, like I I find I feel like I get compliments where someone's like, Oh, my God, you're such a good teacher. Like, if they come to me after class and they say it, it's like, great. But sometimes, if I'm like, in the moment, and I'm teaching, and someone's like, oh, you know, I like the way you do this, or whatever. Like, it's, it definitely, like, shifts me out of that, like, flow state of teaching, like, I I do feel uncomfortable. I'm like, Oh, I'm like, you don't, you don't have to say that. You know, sometimes I'm like, it's weird. Like, it's almost like I really want to maintain this, like, that separation. And when your students are like, complimenting you, or sometimes they'll demonstrate something and they're like, oh my god, me, that looks so easy. And it's like, I'm the coach. If I didn't make it look easy, then I wouldn't be the coach you. And it's lovely. It's a lovely compliment. But then I'm, am I supposed to be like, Oh my god, thanks. Like, you know, like, it's just kind of an uncomfortable moment for me, yeah. And I think, I think some people get off on that. They're like, Oh my god, wow, she loves me. It's like, but I don't, like, I feel uncomfortable. Like, I'm like, you don't have to, like, I'm literally getting paid to demo my skills to you who don't have the skills. So of course, I'm gonna make it look easy. Like, if I didn't, then I shouldn't have this job, you know? So it's like, yeah, if that makes sense. Like, I get uncomfortable. So are there other places where, as a three you are more, like hoping for wanting comfortable with other people's like, adoration.

Well, I love performing. I love Yeah, on stage, yeah, yeah.

Like, love it, okay, say more about that sentence. Like, what? Like, what does that phrasing mean to you, and why is it important?

Like being a slut on stage? Yes, yeah,

it feels natural to me to be expressive sexually, like that comes naturally to me as a dancer, as a mover. Like,

it's SX, like, play zone and the second yeah spot there, yeah and,

and I there's always this, like, I feel like sexuals are always like cutting themselves open and showing themselves to you. It's like being on stage already is like a sense of vulnerability, like you're kind of showing yourself. But I find that most people who do it, who are sexual blind, it's this very sort of like, I'm kind of like hiding but I'm here, and then me being like, 378, I'm like, almost like, here it is like, and I wouldn't necessarily say I'm like that in like, a very crass sense on stage, because I can be very flirty actually. And I think self press sexual is a little bit more Coy and flirty. It's kind of like, I like to think of it as like, someone's like, inviting you back, like a spider, kind of inviting you back. Like, yeah, I agree, yeah. That's a, actually, a great metaphor, yeah, yeah. It's like, come into my lair. Like, come in here. Like, come into this space. Like, I'm inviting you. Like, I want you to want to be here. I don't want to just throw it in your face, which I think is the eight, like, you know, like, because there are people who will just, like, you know, even like, well, stripping is stripping. Like, you're always going to be, like, rubbing your pussy and whatever. Like, that's just what it is. But like, even when you're not doing that, there are some people who are very like, here it is. Here's my show. Like, I'm seven core, whatever. And I find that, like, No, you kind of want to set the scene and, like, invite people into your space and, like, have them make the choice to come in, you know? Like, it's not even necessarily a consent thing. I mean, it is. But it's like, I want you to want to be here. I want you to want to come into this space. But once it's like, yeah, yeah, they opt into it. The Yeah, but when? But then once we're here, like, let's party. Like, well, you know, but it's very much like, I'm gonna put myself out there and give like, a little tease and then, but my energy is, like, pretty intense, like, on stage, some like, I can definitely get, like, hardcore, I guess. But yeah, I do like being on stage. I really do. It feels very natural, like it's not something I ever learned, like, I just, I never had stage frights from the age of a child. Like, I just don't care. I think that's social blind with eight, like, I just yeah and seven, sevens love being center of attention. Yeah, true, yeah. It's yeah. It's all of that, right? It's triple cert. It's all that social blind. But even just the way that you're claiming the word slut in a in my in this empowering way, yeah, you know, without, I don't know, it's not even my experience is that it's not even in reference to, like, the social milieu of how that word is held. It's just, like, just a word. It's a word that feels good to say, or something like that. Yeah, it is. And, you know, I've, I've actually read a lot of feminist lit.

About how that's like, not always a good thing, because in some societies, in some cultures, like, being a slut is just always going to mean something negative. Like, no matter what, like, it's like, they can't reclaim it. Because there's this argument with feminists that, like, you know, some feminists like, we need to reclaim this language, and some feminists are like, we can't do that. Like, it's, you know, we're Muslim, or we're whatever, like, I'm not gonna call myself that. Like, it still has this like, negative connotation. So it's like, it's an interesting argument where, like, it's hard to, like, kind of make everyone happy, I guess. But I feel like I can't, not reclaim this language, like I can't like it again. It feels like it's just part of me, especially at this point in my life,

that makes, yeah, but so this, but performing, I mean period, performing in this, in this way that's displaying your sexuality,

being in the spotlight, being adored for your performance, your hotness. What I just all, just, all that whole thing is, is a place where you're comfortable receiving that kind of, like, positive gaze, yes, yeah. Which is interesting too, because it's, let's see how to put it. It's, um,

you know, it's funny is, like, what's coming to me is that, in a in a deep way. It's like a cleaner it's a cleaner gaze exchange than the one between teacher student that you were talking about before.

What do you mean? What I mean is like,

let's see how to put this

in the teacher student thing you're kind of like, No, don't, don't adore me. Like, focus on you, your your growth, or whatever. Like, at the point of this is not for you to, like, be wowed by me. I'm providing a service to help you on your way, whereas in the case of being on stage, it's like, the point of this is for you to look at me, and the thing that I'm doing now is displaying myself. And these are the terms of this exchange. Oh yes, yeah, I see what you're saying. It is, it is a cleaner exchange. It's literally like, I'm giving you permission to look at me now, yeah, whereas, like, as an instructor, I want you to look at me, but I want you to look at me in order to learn something and apply it to yourself. But when, when it's an audience, it's like, I'm inviting you into this space, like I'm commanding this space. Now it's like my space, if that makes sense, and I'm inviting you here, like I want you to be here,

but your job is to appreciate like, that's your job. And if you don't like, it don't look like, that's fine, because, you know, I perform in a restaurant on the weekends and like, sometimes people like, I mean, most people care, because it's pretty cool we're doing, like, fire and stuff. But you know, some people like, are you eating their dinner? Maybe they're not paying attention. Like, I don't care whether you're looking or not, but if you are, it's like, Yes, this is like, the time to, like, adore, or be excited or be, you know, think about it more, whatever, like, it's important. So, yeah, yeah, um, that's true. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. No, I was just thinking about you as a competence type, and I know that you have built your own curriculum for your studio. And also, I was just wondering about how you approach dancing, or any of the circus, acrobatic kind of apparatus that you do from a competence point of view, like, do you just, or, I don't know, there's a couple other words I want to throw in here as a prompt, like the athleticism of it, the the physical

intensity of it,

the all of that stuff, strikes me as kind of three, like the the way that you could kind of approach it like a craft, and then hone your craft,

yes,

yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, it's interesting. Because,

interesting so, like, I see it's so funny, because I don't even know, like, I created my curriculum, like, years ago, and to be honest, like, what sparked it was the fact that there wasn't one, like, pole is very like nowadays, like it's been, almost, it's been, well, it's been 1718, years since I started. So I've been doing this for like half my life. Yeah, yeah. And when I started in 2008 it was still so new, like, it was maybe like 1015, years old. Like before the mid, like early to mid 90s pole dancing was in strip clubs, and that's it. And then one stripper named Fania in, like Vegas, like, she started teaching other strippers, and then she realized, oh, like, this is a good workout. Like, I could teach, like, regular folks how to do this. Like, they, they call them cities or civilians. Like, I could teach civilians, yeah, which because, like, being sad.

Worker can sometimes feel like you're on the front lines of, like a social battle, because you're like, the bottom of the Stig stigmatized barrel. But

it like, it's like, I can teach people how to do this. And so she, like, basically started this, like, global craze where pole dancing became, like an amazing workout, but it was so new. And no one had really like, like, it's not like gymnastics or ballet, where there is, like, a very specific set of rules and goals and names and like, you have to learn this and that. So it's even though, like, each ballet and each choreography is different, like, the foundational the skills, like, all the movements are there and listed, and they all have names and etc. But with pole, it's like, I don't know we call one move like the butterfly and like somewhere else on the other side of the world, they're gonna call it like the crocodile, like it's so not

like, yeah, standardized. That's exactly the word, thank you. So it was missing, like it was something that was it was a very key point that was missing. And so I felt like I had to create it. I'm like, this does not exist. Like I had to put together a curriculum. So I started that curriculum. Like, actually, when I left my first studio, I had already started it. I was already starting it, because it was missing. And then when I opened my second studio there, that was another thing that was missing. Was there's no studio that is both circus and pole, because there's so much stigma. I mean, it's getting better now, like, like, 2025, we're in Toronto. We're in a very liberal city, so it's like, starting to get to the point where, like, people are less, you know, they're less scared of the stick, stigmatized, like thing this, like, slutty thing. But even in Toronto, I still find Toronto very conservative, and

there's still some circus people who, like, don't think pole and circus should be together, like, they're these two separate things and and they are, like, now that I've run a business, like, you kind of see, like, certain people take pole and they don't take circus and vice versa. Like, it is kind of like, that interesting, yeah, yeah, because of the stigma, stigma, that's the social thing, like, social category thing, right? Yeah. But I really wanted to, like, mesh them together. That was, like, me being like, I'm like, why are these things separated? Like, it didn't make sense. I did them both. I love them both. And there are other people out there who were the same as me. They do them both, you know. And nowadays, everyone sort of just wants to try everything. We're like a kid in the playground, like, I want that toy. I want that toy. And they try all the different apparatuses. But like, I think when, when we started, like, this stuff was missing, so I did it, you know, like,

yeah. So that was, yeah. It strikes me as we've talked like I was thinking about the threes, line three lines to nine and six. I don't know how familiar with it, like the directions of integration, disintegration, which maybe not very much, I don't know,

very briefly, like some schools teach it that, like, threes will, when they're less healthy, disintegrate to nine, so they take on the less healthy qualities of nine, and then when they're healthy, they take on some of the positive qualities of six. So those are the lines of integration and disintegration. I actually think it's yeah, my personal opinion is that it's actually more complicated, that you kind of do both in both directions, yeah, yeah. But one of the what was coming to me was

this, like one of the ways that three moves to six in a in a healthy way, you could say, is this kind of

when something resonates with my whole being, then my being becomes like us, almost like a devotional service, offering to that thing. And so it's like this thing, this thing doesn't exist in in this space, this curriculum doesn't exist, standardization doesn't exist. And so now I'm discovering that my purpose is to provide this thing, yeah, kind of like providing scaffolding, structure support within

I keep wanting to use social words, but then I don't know I was gonna use the word community, but it's not exactly, well, I mean, it is this art form, you know, like,

right in the industry, like it is community is not a bad word to use. I would say, like, because we do have a really, like, wonderful, thriving community in our space. Like, it is a beautiful community, that's for sure. So yeah, like, I think that's a, that's an okay word to use. And I yeah, I would say industry wise, like, and I think other studios have, like, tried to put together a curriculum. And, like, your curriculum shit, like, this is, it's not at all. It doesn't even hold a candle.

Yeah, I know I sound so cocky, but it's like,

it's, honestly, it's giving me life as a three I'm just like, Yes, this is, like, this is the monolog that I have in my head often that I don't externalize. Like, well,

you know, it's so funny because, like, I think we're also like, our I know I'm also treated like, Oh, you got to be like, or you shouldn't be arrogant, whatever. But really, if you look at other pole studios, like, it's like,

no, like, it's just because people open up.

Up people open up pole studios. Like, it's probably different. It's a different type of business. Like, you see women do this, mostly it's because. It's like 90% of 99% of studio owners are women. You see women do this all the time. They open up a studio because they just like, love pole. It's like, it's the stupidest reason to open up a business. You open up a business because you want to open up a business because you like business because you want to run a business. If you open up a business because you like pole, you're probably going to fail or not make any money. You know what I mean? Like, liking pole isn't a business, you know? But I did that. That's what I did when I was 22 I was like, Oh, my God, I love this. I'm going to just open up a business. Nadia said it was okay, like, we just did it. And I had to learn the hard way that I was like, Okay, I have to, like, fucking buckle up and, like, actually learn how to run a business. Yeah, yeah. Because this is not the same thing as just liking something. So it's something that's it's probably rampant in all industries, but especially in pole. I'm learning it now also in the Enneagram as well. Yeah, it's a similar thing, yeah,

but wait, but back to the craft thing. Do you approach your

craft like a craft like do is it like dude or or did you at some point kind of consciously

seek to improve your craft

in a way that, like one might practice piano or something like that.

Well, yeah, like, all the all the time, like, if you're not improving, then, like, what are you doing? You're just okay existing. Like, that's fine, okay, that's okay. I mean, if that's what you want to do, but yeah, like, all I, all I do is, like, improve and work and train. We call it Training. Like, I go and I do, I do, like, 10 pull ups, and then next week I try to do 11 and like, it's the same thing with the curriculum is, like, every year I run instructor training, and I like revamp the curriculum, and I like take some stuff away and adjust it and change it. And like, so every year, especially our lower levels, because we run those trainings the most they get a revamp, and they're, you know, adjusted, and, you know, change and, and sometimes more, more often than that. So yeah, I'm we're always improving. I feel like every single day I get up and I'm like, How can I do this better?

Okay, every day, maybe, like, 10 times a day. I'm like, How can I do this better?

And it's funny, right? Because, like, if you look back, I do this all the time. Sometimes I look back at myself, like, 10 years ago, and I'm like, oh my god, I was such shit. And I feel really bad, like, I can't believe that was me. But then I'm like, but I'm better now, right? Like, and if you look back and you're like, Oh, I was so good. Like, if you're actually looking back at yourself and saying, like, oh my god, I was so good. Like,

Yeah, that sucks for you. Is that? Is that sensibility still alive? Like, are you still? Are you still,

I don't know. Is it right to use the word obsessed with self improvement? Yeah, I'm definitely obsessed with self improvement. I wouldn't even say I'm obsessed, because, like, I don't again this, this is one part of three that I don't think is conscious. It's just like, it's like, breathing, just baseline. I Yeah, I'm super there with you. Yeah, you just do it. You always have to be improving. You always have to up the Annie. You always have to up the goal. And it sucks. It really, actually fucking sucks sometimes, because sometimes I'm like, you know, I could sit down for five minutes and be proud of myself instead of always trying to fucking achieve the next thing and then being upset if I can't achieve it, you know? But it's I don't do that. I'm not like, so you're so proud. No, even with the seven fix, what you're like, yeah, what's your relationship with celebration is minimal. Yeah, completely minimal, especially with my, like, traumatic childhood where I was, like, told I was shit all the time, like, it's so I have such a bad relationship with, like, self praise, you know, like, like, I don't ever do that. I'm always like, Okay, next. What's next? Let's make it better. Like, let's just keep Yeah, it's probably like to my detriment. It's probably not a good thing. Well, plus there's triple assertive. You got a lot of forward motion energy, yeah, yeah.

Um, okay. I, I know you don't want to talk about trauma in childhood, but are you willing to talk about just what you were like as a kid? And, oh, I, honestly, I'd be willing to talk about the trauma. I just don't want to make it like, oh my god, I had such a traumatic childhood. Like, I don't want to, like, make it like a sob story. That's like, a very eight thing. I feel like we're just, we're just, we don't play victim very well. Like, I don't like being the victim. So however you want to say it, yeah, but I'm, I don't mind talking about it. You can't even ask about anything. So, so, oh, sorry. The question was, what was I like as a child? What were you like as a child? And also, can you say some of the things, like, what did you experience that you I don't know, reacted to, or what was

formative for you?

Huh? Was I like as a child? I was crazy. I.

Uh, like crazy, like, too much energy, even now I can't sit still. Like I can't. I should have, like, brought something to play with with my hands, because, like, I feel like I can't still for five seconds.

I said whatever I wanted to, which was not always good.

I didn't. I was not good at relationships. Like, I didn't realize that, like, the how friendships worked. Like, I didn't realize, yeah, that, like, social was this, like, reciprocal thing. Like, I didn't, yeah, it was,

um, I was like,

I hated school. I thought school was stupid. I didn't do homework. I just refused to do it. I just didn't want to do it. I thought school, having to sit in one place for eight hours was like, traumatic, like, it was awful. That's amazing, because I just just quick on that, because as a three, I guess it's just, this is part more. I don't know more texture around your social blindness, but also triple assertive. But it's just like as a social three Bermuda myself. I was raised in a family where school is really important, and and I, and I loved school. And I, you know,

you went to Princeton, so, yeah, I had an amazing high school. I There were 39 kids. My graduating class was very small. Wow. A lot of attunement. Yeah, it was amazing. It was like summer camp all year long. But,

but my point is that

I don't know, like it would not have been even available to me in my consciousness, the option not to do school or to slough off, or not to do my homework, or to at least not keep up the image that I'm, like, trying to be good student, you know, yeah. And there was, I ended up, yeah, okay, that's so funny. That's, it is really interesting. So like, but did you enjoy it like you actually wanted it? I did, yeah, I mean, and then I have, well, I have not to paint my own sob story. But, you know, I had, I had trauma related to school as well. And then there was I had, I struggled with, with, with cheating in school. And then I had, like, a whole journey of, like confronting all the shame around that. That was a whole part of my three journey, yeah, but

that was part of like me as a social three, absorbing the expectation of you have to be excellent at this thing, and Bermuda, kind of adapting into it. But then also unhealthy three, kind of putting four on a cutting corners and the deceptiveness of three and stuff like that, right? That's kind of part of my story. But, yeah, but you just decided not to you opted out altogether of school. Yeah, I failed grade 10 math twice, two times, okay? And it didn't bother you,

no?

And then I hated it. I thought it was so stupid. Why do I have to learn this? The only reason I even passed in the end was because it was, like, a two weeks of summer school, and, like, I got, like, a D. I was like, I don't care about this. I just did not care. And you know what's funny is, like, I'm not, I'm not stupid, like I was. I could read at the age of three, I could I could read, I could play piano. I had perfect pitch. At the age of three, I could I was read like in grade one, other kids would still be learning how to read. I was reading like novels, like I was not a stupid kid, like I was actually, this is an ADHD thing too, probably, like, I couldn't sit still. And with ADHD like you the it's not an attention deficit. It's like, it's ADHD is when you have an attention like, hyper focused, but usually on the wrong thing. It's like, it's not like something I can, like, turn on whenever I want. So other kids could go and sit in the class and focus on class, and like, I wasn't always able to do that, so, yeah, I found that difficult. And then sitting still. I'm like, Oh my God. And I wanted to dance and I wasn't able to dance, but like, I, like, excelled at music. I excel like I, I've never like, I've never got less than 100% on an ear test. Like, I've I've done like,

I've done up to grade eight, piano up to grade 10 voice exams. Like, I, I'm not, like, an academic. I love to read. I can even now I sit in my read. I all the time, like, obsess, like, I'll read almost anything. Like, I'm not, like, not book smart. It's funny, but like, I just, it's like, this weird institution of school that like I can participate in, you know, I just don't, I don't do it. It's funny. So what's, what's crazy about that, to me is that you're, it's sort of defying the whole three stereotype of

absorbing and trying to meet the expectations of my environment, of what is considered like admirable, what you're supposed to do. Or, I don't know, maybe your family wasn't, or if your family did, did your family value school? Oh, yeah. Like, my parents were always like, get an education. Get an education. Okay, yeah, so there you go. I mean, that's what, yeah, it's fascinating because, but you're still constructing a sense of self worth and identity around things you're good at.

Like, that's where your attention is going. I mean, the last two minutes of you talking was like, I excelled at this. I was good at this. Here's kind of, and those were, I don't know, maybe at the at that point, pillars of your sense of self and the the stuff that you weren't good at, that you didn't care about it just kind of like it was, you were able to just cut that off, or not, not, not. I don't know how to put it,

yeah, not care about it. I guess, yeah, it was really just like, I didn't care. Like, I remember in grade five, like, I had this teacher who actually, like, gave a shit. And she was, she would, like, call my mom and be like, I don't understand Alisa, so smart, but like, she just doesn't do anything, like, because she would put me with, like, the gifted kids and stuff. And like, I could, like, Kiki with them, and I could, like, get the work done, but like, I just I did not want to do it. And I think back then too. I mean, this was, like, early 2000s like late, like 90s, early 2000s but like, I think also, like, they didn't even think that I, like, I thought I had ADHD, and they didn't even, like, consider that, because they usually just diagnose it in boys and not girls. And I have, like, a high functioning form of ADHD, like, it's a spectrum. So some people are extremely high functioning, which is me, and there's some people who, like, like, they get into, like, the free sort of state where, like, they become overwhelmed and then they freeze, whereas, like, I'm the opposite, like, I don't ever get frozen. Like, I never feel that, but yeah, like, I just couldn't participate. Like, I just didn't care about this. Like, like, I literally saw through the ruse of school. I'm like, all this shit is fake. It's just fake. Like, it's none of it is real. Like, Well, I gotta, yeah, what do you mean by not real? Because, like, when you actually talk to some people who have an education, they're fucking idiots and they can't even hold a conversation. And there's sometimes, like, I even some, some like, love my students, but some people, I'll be like, Oh my God, you have, like, a masters in this, and you think that they can hold a conversation, but they can't. Like, it's so different to be like, academically smart and be able to regurgitate information for testing and for like, accolades, than to actually apply that information like, it's so different, it's actually completely different skills. And I learned at a young age that, like, good grades didn't mean good, good or very smart, like, it didn't mean anything. It literally is just a piece of paper that says you could regurgitate this, you memorize this information, and you're throwing it back up for the test, precocious. Just you were aware of that at that at that age, yeah, like, as a kid, I was like, this doesn't matter. That's amazing. Yeah, I guess

I'm it's kind of coming together in my head now I just, I'm getting it. Sorry that maybe was, I didn't mean for it to be offensive against, like, anyone's education, because I value education, so I don't want you to feel like I just insulted. No, no, I didn't experience that way. Okay, good. But it is, I mean, education in the way that we have it as a social construct, you know, like we we value a certain type of education. And I don't know, my personal opinion is education is happening always in every context. And, you know, it's not necessarily in the structured form of school anyway, there's a whole thing to say about that which I can get on a social stuff, yeah, so, another time, but, but my what it's, what's coming together for me is, as you're talking about it, it's like you have this eight fix practicality, like, how is this actually, like rubber amidst the road gonna work for you in your life? Or what's this actually gonna do? You have a seven fix, willingness to, just like, be loyal to your own

truth, I suppose, not enmesh and attach into collective meaning making.

And you have a three sense of, I don't know, competence and valuing yourself based on excellence, but it's supported by these two self permissive

I don't know. I don't want to use the word counter cultural, but I just mean kind of willing to willing to distance yourself from the collective fixes. Does that make sense? So yeah, it does make a lot of sense. Actually, I think it does. I think it's like,

yeah,

that's it, actually, because I I've been very much like, I'm just gonna make my own way, like, I'm just gonna do my own thing.

I've never been afraid of that. I've never been like, oh, I shouldn't do that. Or, oh, that's scary. Like, no, I've been like, oh, that's better. It's like, better I'm happy, or I'm happier. So like, I just really couldn't, like, fit myself into this box.

Yeah,

amazing. I guess it sucks in some way, though, because

like, I like, I feel like I've achieved a lot, but I don't really have any, like, awards or accolades or like a diploma on the wall, or anything like I have a business. But I think about that sometimes I'm, like, I don't have any of those things and like, I don't really care, but I think about them in the lens that, like, other people see these things and like, care about them. So then it makes me think, oh, like, I guess I.

That might be important. Yeah, that okay, so it does that does live in your psyche in some way, even in a small way. I don't hold on to it, but it does, for sure, yeah, definitely, especially as a studio owner, more so that I'm like, Oh, maybe I should, like, sometimes I'm like, maybe I should just go get, like, a certification of something.

Just go get something. I don't know what that means, but people love that shit, people I'm certified. Like, I don't know, people love that. Like, it's a social thing. I know it's so dumb, yeah, but I agree. I agree, yeah. I mean, it functions for me too. Like, Well, I would say probably a lot more. I don't know. I would expect that things like certifications or accolades or the ways that other people's resumes compare or stack up, is a thing that

a lot less now, actually a lot less now. But that was a that was a journey for me to get, to get over that for sure, for sure. Well, I think like,

if you're really good at something,

it's gonna show like, people are gonna like, yeah, I guess you have to do a certain level of marketing and self

like

promotion, yeah. But if you are really good at something, like, people are probably gonna know, you know, like, they like, come take a class, and you'll see, like, okay, like, like, I know what I'm talking about. You know, I don't, might not be certified. I mean, I am. I actually have a certification. I got, like, 15 years ago, but, like, I don't even think it was that good of a certification. But like, I have done courses and I spent, like, I've spent 1000s of dollars on, like, private lessons. I'm not one of those. Yeah, I'm not one of those bitches that's gonna be like, I'm self taught. I fucking hate that shit. No one's self taught. If you're self taught, you're probably not that good, like you need other people to help you and teach you along the way, like you can't actually self Teach Yourself. That's probably very dangerous, you know. Sorry, go ahead. No, I just I have the same reaction, because people like when I tell my piano story, people will sometimes summarize it in a way that he's self taught. But it's not true. I had, I got teachers, you know. And it's right,

you still achieved all of that, but Right, can't like it's in your best interest to have people who are better than you come in and teach you things like you. That's the way life should be is there should always be, you know, like you always should be learning something from someone like, that's what I think. Anyway. This is, it's just amazing how these, like core three themes, still exist in you in this extremely strong baseline way with that, just without all the confusion of of of social or other attachment stuff going on. If that makes sense, yeah, it is. It does make sense, and it's interesting, because, yeah, these things do exist in me. It's just they. I think they just manifest differently, and I think I hold on to them differently.

You know what I mean? Because, like, I again, like, I don't care about all the accolades, so I'm like, Oh, if I'm thinking about it. It's like, oh, this would help me do better, because other people might trust me more, or something do what I mean. And that would be a reason why I'd get an accolade, not because I don't know, whatever social whatever people might get one I don't know. Do you have anything about like, as a self press type? I'm just thinking about how, let me think how to put this

in one of the kind of theoretical framings of the Enneagram. What we're doing is we are trying to

achieve our essence quality through the lens of our dominant instinct. So like me as a social three, achieving essential value through the social instinct, like being well, liked being popular,

having a having a well regarded place in the social milieu or whatever. And earlier, when I was a kid, you know, or in college, that meant I was running for an officer in every group of mine. I was, like, trying to be popular big man on campus, you know, that kind of thing.

But for you with self pres,

is there anything like that, like seeking essential value through

lifestyle or resources or something like that?

I think I,

I think I do hold some

worth on, like, productivity. I kind of hate saying that, because, like, um, it's weird. Like,

I I own a business, but like, I definitely have like,

complicated feelings about capitalism, and I feel like the world shouldn't force people to work the way that it does, like we shouldn't be forced to work in the way like I believe in UBI I wish that we could just, you know, we pay taxes. We could just get enough money for people to just do whatever the fuck they want. I don't think that's laziness. I don't think laziness exists. I think.

Like, you know what I mean? So, like, I have this, like, really socialist view of the world, and yet I still hold my self worth based on, like, my ability to be productive.

But that being said, I don't, like, ever really get upset or guilty if I don't get enough done in a day. So I only feel guilty if it's something like I had to finish, like, if I had to finish this certain task because we have something running the next day, then I'll feel guilty. But like that never like that never happens. If something's due, I get it done. You're a business owner, you have to, like, Teflon for guilt also, because with me as a six fix, I definitely have a lot you feel the guilt. Oh, I do. Oh yeah, guilt is it looms large in my psyche. I have to defend against it all the time. You have to defend against, yeah, my partner's a six, so I totally understand that, yeah, like, the like, I don't feel shame. Like, if I am like, oh, I plan to do a bunch of work today, and then on the end of the day I end up on the couch, like, reading my book. I'm just like, it's okay. Like, literally, I can just be, like, it's fine, like, I'll do it tomorrow, like it'll get done. Like, I'm it's fine. Like, I don't actually, four by seven is so different. That's crazy. It's so different, crazy to me, yeah, like, I'll get it done. Like, if it needs to get done, it's done, you know, it's already done, or I'm delegating it otherwise, like, you know, like, and the only thing I feel a little bit of pressure now is summers can be slow, so I need to get my marketing done for the summer. But again, that's something that needs to get done. It's going to get done, you know. But as a studio owner, I have an endless to do list. I'm never going to be done doing all the things I need to do. So you kind of have to, like, just get over that, you know, do what you can. And then I also just enjoy my leisure so much like, I love reading. I love watching my TV shows. I love playing with my cats. I love, like, hanging out with Joseph, going for dinners. I love spending time with my partner, like, so I love training like, I want to stretch and whatever. But, like, that's the thing too, is I find that as a three, and maybe you can tell me this too is like, like stretching and like doing some of my work and stuff like that, like certain tasks, like they don't feel like work, like I'm actually just, oh, you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, no. I mean it's, it's like regulating to me, you know, like,

yeah. Or actually, it's not only do just do it, but I would say it's like, it's physiologically settling for me to actually be doing work, or something like that. It's like, okay, I'm I'm on the path. I'm doing the thing that I'm supposed to do. Yeah, it's good, you know? Yeah. I think it's really confusing for other types where it's like, why are you working so much all the time? Or why, like, It's nine o'clock, why are you going to the gym? Or it's just, like, I just, I gotta, I'm sorry, yeah, because I just have to.

If I don't, I don't know, I'll go, I don't know. I just will go crazy. Or just, it's, it's what I need, or something, yeah, yeah.

Well, okay, quick. I'm noticing the time. We'll probably come to a close soon,

but I wanted to circle back real quick about your childhood. There's anything else, yep, there's anything else there that is worth, kind of just putting into context for how you became who you are. You've mentioned in a kind of, like, I

don't know, sort of flippant way, like that, there was sort of trauma in your childhood, yeah, but you don't want to talk about it as if it's like, it was, like, traumatic, like, poor me. I don't like being a victim. I want to be a victim. I don't have a six fix. Sorry, right, right, no, that's you're fine, yeah, I don't victimize myself. I don't want to be

I definitely, well, I'll say this, I have difficulty asking for help,

and I have difficulty delegating sometimes to my staff in the sense of like I like I have. I already know what people are usually capable of, and I know how and when someone's going to get something done, and that will approach how I delegate things, if that makes sense. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Some three, eight stem stuff there probably. And then as a kid, I guess, like, Well, I had to be like, I'm hyper independent. I had to be hyper independent. I grew up with three siblings, so there's four, four kids. I was the third, but I would consider myself the emotional support child.

My therapist has also called me the parentified child and the spouseified child. So even though I'm the third child, I was the most.

I don't want to say the word competent, because that feels insulting, but I was the most willing to act, let's say, in most situations, I was usually

the emotional support in the sense that I would kind of like, I was still crazy, like a crazy kid, but I.

Would, you know, listen to my mom talk about my dad, or, do you know what I mean, be there for my mom, offer support. And then I had a little brother, and I always felt like I could care for him, take care of him, and be there for him, and be like, you know, like the big sister, and I have an older sister, and people always ask me if I'm older because she's 911, she's 911, Bermuda. And people always ask me if I'm older because I act like I'm older and I and it's, it's like they've been asking she's shorter than me too, by, like, three inches, or something, three or four inches. But like, people always ask us that energy, I get it, yeah, like, it's an energy, the like,

Well, I was, I'm just getting, like, I'm not get, I'm not getting a lot of like, caretaker vibe from you, you know, as like, a, as a, as a, energy, as a, as an archetype. But in the family dynamic that certainly was coming up, you know, like, yes, you know, like that we talked about life coach as a as a term for three wing two. But it's also kind of like a, I

don't know there is a, kind of a helpful seeing, like a gaze giving kind of thing that was, that is three wing two, right?

So it seems like that was part of your place in the family system, yeah, like, I liked to help out. I liked to take care of things. I like being domestic. I love decorating my house. I love making sure my house is clean. And, you know, I like taking care of things in the sense, like, I like taking care of my cats. I, you know, hope I have a child one day. Like, I, I do naturally care for things I find in most spaces I'm in. Like, I don't step into that role the same way, like a 962 steps into that role, but like, I can,

and I find, I I'm a really good listener, usually with my friends. Like, I find, you know, I end up sort of like, being bad for other people. And, yeah, with my with my childhood, I definitely ended up like I was always the one doing chores and helping out and, you know, being the good girl, and I wasn't as, like, like, I was always crazy, but I never like,

I I think because my my dad was a really absent parent, and I realized this is a really young kid, and even at the age, like, even at the at, like, the toddler stage, I very much remember just kind of, like writing my dad off as a parent that I couldn't depend on him,

yeah, like I just sort of almost, it's almost like I was, knew I was, like, being raised by, like a single parent, and then even my mom had to care for my dad and my other three siblings. So being social blind with 378 I became hyper independent, like, just I care for myself. And I almost feel like, to an extent, I raised myself, I had to raise myself. So I think that's what's led me into being. You know, it was like this situation where, like, I was just able, whether because of ADHD, whether because of who I am, who knows, you know, but like, I was just able to, like, assess the situation, see that my dad was just never going to be there for me, like that. And then my mom is busy. She's got three other kids. She's got my dad, she's got her job, whatever that like, I have to just do this. And I just did it, you know. So that sort of became my life, you know, is being comfortable in these stressful and traumatic situations, like running a business, for example, because that was what my childhood was like. So, you know, I kind of like, I depended on myself for safety, I depended on myself for support I didn't like, I think it was high school when I really had my first real friendship develop with Joseph, where he was able to kind of like, keep me in check, because his boundaries are, like, so strict, and then I was able to help him tear some of those boundaries down, because I'm completely boundaryless. So we really just like Kiki and like vibe, like immediately, because we were just kind of what each other needed, I think.

And he, like, helped me a lot. And, yeah, but I was, I was hyper independent from a very young age, even though I grew up with, like, this huge family, yeah. So yeah, that definitely I'm hearing like a loner before Joseph,

such a loner, yeah? But also gave you that kind of,

this isn't, maybe exactly the spot on phrase, but kind of like a ruthless pragmatism that allowed you to, for example, see through the farce of school, you know, yeah, yeah. Like, it's like, I, it be like, I this is something I learned in therapy, but because of how stressful my life was, I had to learn how to assess quickly, like and anticipate people's needs and anticipate people's emotions. Because when you grow up in a dangerous situation, that's just like what you learn.

Yeah, that's what you have to learn. And I I think being a competency type and being 378 like, saved me from being like, I'm still damaged, but from being as damaged as I could have been growing up in that situation. And instead, I was sort of able to, like, make diamonds out of

dirt, I guess, in the sense, because, yeah, I was like, I'm stronger than this. I didn't want to lean into being a victim. I didn't want any of that, so I really just, like, pulled myself out of it. Yeah, it's not easy, and I'm still, you know, suffering and struggling with, like, the trauma. But like, yeah, I was able to whereas, like, I love my siblings, but I don't know if they, like, you know, each sibling has such a different experience, even though you brought them the same household, they're raised by different parents, right? So sibling has such a different experience. Like, I don't like, they weren't able to do what I was. They had their own experiences, not necessarily better or worse, but just their own experiences, right, right? And you've been I guess, what I'm wondering too is like this, this

allergy you have to seeing yourself as a victim. Is that? What did that? Did you have to work with that, like, for example, in therapy to, like, actually unpack the effect of all that stuff on you?

I never really talked about that, not being able to something Joseph and I actually talk about a lot, because

he'll be like, Oh, you never, you can never ask for help, or you don't like it when people try to help you, and I'm like, No, I hate it, but I hate it honestly, on like, a different

lens, because I hate it in the sense that, like, I don't want you to help me unless you're going to do it the way I want it done. Yeah. Yeah, okay, so, you know, a little bit, yeah. So I'm like, if you're not gonna do it the way I want, then like, just you can help me by leaving, you know, if that makes sense, like, that's, that'll help me, right? So, like, that's, yeah, that makes sense kind of a I mean, you're so used to being self reliant from an early age, so yeah. And even now, like, sometimes I'm like, with my business, oh, my god, fuck it. I'm just gonna do it myself. I do that all the time. It's actually, like, to my detriment, because my workload is crazy right now, but it's because I'm like, Yeah, fucking do it myself. So, you know, but yeah, is that what you were looking for? Yeah, that's what I was wondering. I mean, I guess, well, let me see how to put this. I'm not inviting you into a victim frame. I'm sort of sort of, I'm just like wondering if, if,

if that prevented you from, on some level, kind of like acknowledging the pain of it, or the the impact of it, or whatever, and also like the practical consequences of it. Now, for example, being a business owner and struggling with delegation because of this kind of reflex for self reliance. Yeah, do you do you find delegating easy or Absolutely not? No, it's okay. Yeah, no, I do know. Is it the same thing, though? Like, is it a competency thing? Like, I don't think you'll do it as good or out or, what is it

good question. Yes, it is that. But there's more. Let's see, this

is interesting for me too, because I actually don't. I have one other friend who's a social three but she's like very like, we don't talk as much. I like her, but we don't talk. We were just sort of like acquaintances. Now. We were closer in the past. So I don't get a chance to talk, the chance to the chance to talk to a lot of threes and then threes who know the Enneagram, so it's just, right, yes, totally, yeah,

yeah. Let's see. Delegation has historically been quite hard for me, and given how much is different about our typing, I'm curious what you relate to about this. But I think for me, there is the sense that

I this is, like, the fucking superiority hubris of three, but it's like, I do think that I'm gonna do a better job if I do something, you know, I just do have that as a baseline assumption. And

it might not even be true. It might be delusional, you know, it might be that someone is, like, has done this thing before more times than I have or something. But I just have, I can carry a sense of like, I'm probably gonna, I'll be able to figure this out.

And

what I've struggled

with is, and what I'm like really learning like this is an active period of time for me. Learning this right now is being,

being more vocal about this is probably like six and nine fixes stuff, but like, being more vocal about the standards that I'm trying to hold something to,

and then having an actual conversation with someone about here's this is the vision of of of excellence that I'm holding for this, you know, and then having other people opt into it and not just almost preemptively be disappointed that someone is going to not want to hold the same level of excellence.

And actually,

let's see.

I think I know what you're saying. Yeah.

There's almost, there's almost like a brittleness that I've had around this, like it's like I could get disappointed easily. You know, I feel so I feel the same. Because when it comes to my business, it's like, it's not even like, it's not as simple, like I can do it better. That almost feels inaccurate. It's that like, I'm going to do this with all my knowledge, my vision, my care, how much time and attention I put a whole self, yeah, like, like, how well I'm able to take a step back and look at the collective and the industry and what's happening, like, how I'm able to really analyze, and I'm going to take all of that and my experience and put it into what I do for my business. Whereas, like, you're like, never going to be able to do that. And how do I summarize that so that you understand how to take even an iota of that and apply that to you doing something for my business. Like, that's how I feel, you know? I That's why sometimes I'm like, Well, I guess I'm like, Well, I guess I'm just gonna do it myself. Because I'm like, I don't, you know, I like, for example, my E newsletters. I have tried to hire other people to do my E newsletters. They never will write to my community with the same care and attention that I will. They will never, right, that's right, you know. And maybe someday, like, there are some people who have not done a very bad job. You know that maybe just didn't work out for other reasons or whatever. But, like, it's a good example, because it's like, it's something that you have to care about. And like, someone who's maybe just doing it for a job, or doesn't know anything about the whatever, like, they don't love it the way I do, they're not gonna apply that. So, yeah, yeah. It's like, you have the standard, and it's not something that you can easily summarize and be like, here, I'm gonna pay you. Make sure you do it like this. Like, that's, I can't tell you that. Make sure you do this how you like, you love it, and think about it at night crying, because you know you, if you don't make any money, you're gonna get, have no money, and starve or whatever. Like, joining me, I'm like, sorry, yeah, no, totally. And also the standard is, is also, like, it's, it's a standard, not just of the quality of the final product, but also of the effort that one puts into it. And yeah, and sometimes the standard is, is not something that's easily articulable, like, it's a style or a tone of, like, how I want to write this, you know, type description or something, and it's like, it's not my style, so it doesn't feel as, quote, unquote, excellent. But it's this, like, subjective sense of excellence that's really hard to let go of.

And I had one other thing. I had one other, okay, sorry, no, that's okay.

Oh yeah. I was gonna say the, I think, also having a two wing

makes it a little harder, because I'm a little more reticent to give someone negative or constructive feedback, because I can be afraid it's going to hurt their feelings. I don't know if you relate to that as much. With seven eight fixes, you do okay, I do on two levels, so I same thing. And then also,

like, I'm so empathetic, so it's that, but also like I'm so empathetic, like, I can't not, like, if I'm giving someone bad news and they feel bad, I immediately I'm like, I feel what you're feeling. Like, I just absorb that. And then also growing with two hexadeci did, giving people bad news meant, like, maybe I was unsafe in some way, whether mentally or physically, like it put me in an unsafe situation. So it became really difficult for me to let people down

over time. But I agree with you, it's it's hard to give feedback. But the way that I found a way to give feedback, though, that is

better, because I think with the seven and eight, like, I, you know,

seven and eight doesn't really care, just like you said,

Yeah, or like, I'll just, I'll just say, you know, I might not go into detail. Just like, I don't like this. I want to do it a different way, you know. And sometimes my staff hate that. They're like, Oh my god, at least he doesn't like me. I'm just like, I don't like this. I'm going to do it another way, you know. And like, they kind of have to get over it, because it's like, well, it's my business. Like, yeah, yeah. Well, okay,

maybe we come to a close, yeah, yeah. Is there anything else that I should have asked you that I haven't asked you today? Oh, God, I don't know, probably, but it's okay. This was really great. It was so great talking to you. I'm like, I mean, it's nice to kind of dive into this. I love the Enneagram and like talking about being a three is great. Yeah,

yeah, no, I I really enjoyed this conversation. I learned a lot no and yeah, no, I just Yeah, yeah. This was great. Thank you for doing this and yeah. Just really appreciate it My pleasure. Yeah. Thank you for tuning into my conversation with Alisa. If you like this conversation, then please click the like button or hit subscribe.

Or if you're watching on YouTube, or if you're listening to this as a podcast, and you can leap up to a five star review if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, and also leave a comment. Those are free and very effective ways of supporting me and the show and the work that we do at the Enneagram school. If you are curious about the Enneagram and you'd like to learn more for the purposes of your own personal growth or teamwork or relationships, then come check us out at the Enneagram school.com

I recommend you get on our email list, which is where we will send weekly updates about new releases of podcasts, as well as we'll announce where we're doing new workshops and retreats and online classes and things of that nature. And I also recommend you check out our intro course, which is the place where we have kind of arranged all of the concepts that make the Enneagram, the Enneagram in an accessible, bite sized format for beginners. And also it's a great review. If you're an advanced student, if you think you'd be a good candidate to be interviewed on the show, then I'd love to hear from you. You can contact me through the Enneagram school.com just go straight to the contact form, shoot me an email, let me know what type you are and preference strongly goes to people who have been officially typed by the typing team@enneagrammer.com

who are, in my view, the world's most precise and accurate Enneagram typing team. You can check out their typing services at their website enneagrammer.com as well as check out their members area where you can watch them type celebrities in real time.

Finally, I want to mention that this podcast is part of a larger consortium of Enneagram collaborators, and so I want to plug our sister podcast sincesomnia, where the Dream Girls explore the relationship between dreams and the unconscious and the Enneagram, as well as house of Enneagram, which is a new podcast that all of our creative collaborators are contributing to under one creative roof. And so the links to all of this will be in the show notes. Go check that out. And thank you very much. That's it for me. I'll see you next time you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai