The landscape of ministry education is undergoing dramatic change. Traditional seminary enrollment is declining, fewer churches can afford full-time pastors, and leaders are questioning how to adapt. But in this insightful conversation with Luther Seminary President the Rev. Dr. Robin Steinke, we discover how these challenges are opening up exciting new possibilities for forming Christian leaders. From reaching 8 million people through digital platforms to reimagining formation through communities of practice, Dr. Steinke shares how theological education is evolving to meet the needs of today's church.

Using vivid metaphors like "water skiing and scuba diving," Dr. Steinke explores how ministry education can serve both those who need an introduction to faith and those diving deep into theological study. She challenges us to move beyond quick fixes to listen deeply for where God is leading, while sharing concrete examples of how Luther Seminary is embracing both traditional and innovative approaches to forming leaders for Christian communities. This conversation offers hope and practical insights for anyone interested in the future of ministry education and leadership formation.

Resources Mentioned:

• A History of Luther Seminary: 1869 to 2019 by Mark Granquist (Fortress Press, 2019)
• https://faithlead.org/
• https://www.workingpreacher.org/
• https://enterthebible.org/
• https://www.luthersem.edu/godpause/

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YouTube Video URL: https://youtu.be/ZB4_gHVciX4.

Robin Steinke: And so I think part of this broader witness for Luther Seminary is to go where people's curiosity is cultivating an interest to say, I wonder, right. Alicia, you talked in the beginning about this initial pivot of attitudes from fixing the church to this holy experiments. And I think about that as the pivot from, I know to I wonder and I think we're in a moment where we actually need to wonder but not wonder. Alone in a corner by myself, but wonder with the community of practice that trusts that God is up to something in this moment, and that God is up to something through you. Even though I may not understand or even like it all the time. For any of you who had Thanksgiving dinner recently with family members who maybe are of a different, uh, persuasion, what does it mean to be in a space and to continue to wonder, especially in those places that are most difficult.

Dwight Zscheile: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Dwight Zscheile and I'm joined by my colleagues Terri Elton and Alicia Granholm.

Alicia Granholm: On the Pivot podcast. We've been discussing what we believe are four key pivots that God is calling many churches to make in the 21st century. They are a pivot in posture, from primarily fixing institutional problems to listening and discerning where God is leading a pivot in focus from membership to discipleship. A pivot in structure from a one size fits all model of ministry, to a mixed ecology of inherited and new forms of ministry together, and a pivot in leadership from predominantly clergy led, lay supported ministry to lay led, clergy supported ministry.

Terri Elton: Thanks. Today's conversation couldn't be more timely, and we are thrilled to welcome Doctor Robin Steinke, who's the president of Luther Seminary, to explore some important developments in theological education today. This is a challenge and an opportunity. Fewer students are coming to seminary for professional ministry degrees. Fewer churches can afford full time professional pastors. Yet simultaneously, Luther is reaching more people than ever with theological education through innovative digital platforms like Faith lead. It's a story that illustrates the pivot in structure that we've talked about on this podcast, as well as a pivot in leadership. Robin, welcome to the Pivot podcast.

Robin Steinke: Thank you. Thank you all. It's just a delight to be with you, and I can't wait for us to get into the conversation here.

Alicia Granholm: Well, we're so looking forward to having it with you today. So, Robin, can you take us back to Luther Seminary's founding? What was the original vision for theological education in that context over 150 years ago? And what can we learn from this time in Luther's history?

Robin Steinke: Thank you. Alicia. Just to clarify, I wasn't actually here at that time, but nevertheless, we have a faculty member, Mark Granquist, who's our Stensby chair of Church History, who's written an eloquent story about this, this founding of Luther and the Norwegian immigrants that that left a country they knew and demonstrated faithfulness and resilience and a commitment to prepare leaders for these emerging immigrant communities and this movement of God's Spirit. It's a great book from 1869 to 2019, and it was in honor of the 150th anniversary of Luther Seminary. The interesting thing is Mark lifts up this tension, this twin theme of challenge and response about how these immigrants faced, uh, unimaginable circumstances. And yet we're wrestling with this ongoing question of what is the mission of theological education and what's our identity as immigrants in this new land? And I think those are themes that are really timely for today, and especially as our current mission is to educate leaders for Christian communities called and sent by the Holy Spirit to witness to salvation in Jesus Christ in a rapidly changing world. What could be more timely than to think about what does God's Spirit require of us now, in this moment, to prepare a new generation of leaders and servers to bear witness to God's mission?

Dwight Zscheile: So, Robin, let's unpack a bit this paradox that we're seeing here in the life of Luther that even with full tuition scholarships, which we have here at Luther in the form of a Jubilee scholarship, traditional seminary enrollment is continuing to decline. And that's not just here. That's across the whole landscape of theological education in many places. And so tell us, what is what do we make of that? Does theological education, even professional theological education, does it matter anymore? What's so important about it? Yeah.

Robin Steinke: Oh, what a great question. Does it matter? Does our life's work matter anymore?

Terri Elton: Yes. I hope the answer is yes. I'm just saying.

Robin Steinke: Thank you for that, for that question. I think first, it's important though, to to define what do we mean by theological education? I think too often this notion of theological education has been seen as some kind of theoretical, advanced study. You know, the founding of this institution they were fussing with, well, you need to learn Latin and German and Greek and Hebrew and English as well as keep current in your own Norwegian language. So what is theological education and and the tension of? Do we continue to be modeled after a European university, or the kind of mission schools and the preacher seminaries or preacher academies or some combination of those things? But I think for me and for our institution, if we think of theological education as this deep engagement with the Word of God, deep engagement with what's gone on before us, and the ways that our predecessors have faced really hard, complex questions, discerning how the Holy Spirit is moving in a community that prays together, worships together, eats together, sings together, serves the neighbor together, and most importantly, bears witness in all of that to God's faithfulness in their life for the sake of the world. I think in the midst of the ways that the world says no to the most vulnerable, and even when creation itself is under stress, we need theological education more than ever to get at the deep questions and not the superficial anecdotes and pablum that gets passed off as, uh, as theological education or the the misappropriation of the biblical witness to serve one's own interests and demands. I think what we we need to see the face of Christ in our neighbor and those whom God has loved into being. And that's our call. And it's only become more complicated, not less, which requires this deeper engagement with Scripture now more than ever before.

Terri Elton: I love that I had a conversation this last week with a student, a current student who is facing some particular challenges in her context. And she had one group on the one hand who were not Christians, and another very conservative group that had a very narrow understanding of of the gospel of God's mission, of what it meant to be church. And she was trying to wrestle with, how do I speak this, this my understanding of the gospel into that in a way that's helpful. And I and I thought, this is why you're at school, right? She was enjoying these coursework, but also hearing her other colleagues. Right. Talking about that. And and I thought, yay! You are exactly where you should be. Because this was not a theoretical exercise. It was actually to witness to the neighbor. And it was it was sometimes in service and sometimes in conversation. Right. But she was asking the simple question to go deeper what is gospel in this time and place? I love that, and I think that is the challenge that many of leaders are finding today, whether they're in our school or not. So I want to follow up with the other side of this and say, Luther Seminary has decades of experience doing theological education outside of degree programs, right? There's been all kinds of forms over, I don't know, 150 years, but a lot of decades. Our current expressions of that are mostly digital platforms. Working preacher, enter the Bible, faith lead. God pours those kinds of things. And together we've recently over 8 million people now are engaging. That's more than come as students. So why do you think those are important? And how does that show us some inkling about the future of theological education that you're talking about?

Robin Steinke: Yeah, that's such a great question, Terri. When you talk about all the varieties of things that that we have done over decades, I think about it as the difference between water skiing and scuba diving. Right. Some people tell me more.

Terri Elton: I don't see that connection.

Robin Steinke: People who may not even know the stories of the Bible may need to just water ski, skim over the top, get a sense of themes and and and being introduced to this person, Jesus of Nazareth and God's ways of working in the world. Right. And and that's really important. And that really matters because unless someone has a chance of to skim over the surface in ways that introduce topics and respond to questions that people are actually asking, they may never be invited to go deeper. And the go deeper is once you've skimmed across the surface right now it's time to scuba dive and to really explore the depths of this story of who this Jesus of Nazareth is. How is it that this God works across history and across the wonderful and complex context to which the biblical witness testifies? And so I think part of this broader witness for Luther Seminary is to go where people's curiosity is cultivating an interest to say, I wonder, right. Alicia, you talked in the beginning about this initial pivot of attitudes from fixing the church to this holy experiments. And I think about that as the pivot from, I know to I wonder and I think we're in a moment where we actually need to wonder but not wonder. Alone in a corner by myself, but wonder with the community of practice that trusts that God is up to something in this moment, and that God is up to something through you. Even though I may not understand or even like it all the time. For any of you who had Thanksgiving dinner recently with family members who maybe are of a different, uh, persuasion, what does it mean to be in a space and to continue to wonder, especially in those places that are most difficult?

Alicia Granholm: Yeah, thanks for that, Robin. I'm curious how these two parallel realities, on the one hand, uh, you know, not only Luther, but so many seminaries seen declining enrollment in traditional degree programs. And, on the other hand, the expansive reach of our digital platforms. How do these kind of parallel realities inform your understanding of where theological education is heading?

Robin Steinke: I wish I had the crystal ball. You know, I left it in my office so I don't have it here with me. Um, because this is really if we knew what the future, uh, was going to be, that would it would be simple. We could just craft the kind of institutional structure that would respond to that future. But we're in a place, as we have always been, as people of followers of Jesus, where we don't actually know. And so we trust in prayer and in the practices and the disciplines of faith in worship that that God is leading us. The the wonderful prayer at the end of morning prayer in the Evangelical Lutheran Church, uh, Evangelical Lutheran worship book. Um, God, you've called us to ventures of which we cannot see the ending by paths as yet untrodden through perils. And I always add in joys, because I think if there aren't joys in our future, too, we can become a little dour about this whole enterprise. Um, that that we trust that God is leading in the midst of this, that together we find our way forward in the not. a bumps and nudges, hints and whispers where God is leading us. And so I think what this means is that we want to create and be in the places where God is nudging folks, where people are wondering, what does this? What does my life mean? What does a vocation mean? What does it mean that a family member died prematurely? What does it mean that a family member died of a completed life after 90 plus years? How do I how do I understand God's place and presence in the midst of that? And, and I think we can do that best in community, immersed in the Word of God. That shows us the way that challenges us and calls us to new ways of of imagining how God has promised to be present, especially in the hardest places.

Dwight Zscheile: Sir Robin, I'm curious, as you look out across the landscape of the church to think a bit about the leaders that theological education is serving. And, you know, we've inherited from the 20th century a certain professional model, right, where the expectation was the church would raise up people to call them, called to ministry, and then they'd send them here. However, after having already done a bachelor's degree, and we could make them professional pastors, teach them how to preach, read the Bible, do theology, all of those things, and send them out to a congregation that was waiting to receive them in the denomination, for instance. That seems to be breaking down, or at least breaking open more and more right now, where, um, there are many emerging lay leaders being called into congregational ministry and inherited congregations. There are many new forms of Christian community that we know need to be started in order to reach the variety of people in today's neighborhoods who aren't connecting into inherited churches. And so those are very different requirements and assumptions. And then there's the people who, as you mentioned, who just want to learn something a little more about the Bible from a trustworthy source. So as you think about that landscape, how are you imagining that there's everything from masters and doctorate, masters and doctoral degrees all the way to non-degree learning? How does that all fit together in your mind?

S5: Yeah.

Robin Steinke: Thanks, Dwight. Gosh, what a what an insightful question. I wish I had a really strong answer for that. Um, and so the way we've been leaning into it is, I think the easiest thing would be to abandon all historical forms and just say, okay, we're going to we're going to start this whole new thing and, and hope that people come. And I don't think that would actually serve, um, the, some of these inherited forms. I get calls all the time from congregations. Who do you know who's a good student that you know that could come and interview here in this congregation because God still works there in those places. I'm a member of a thriving, growing congregation here in the Twin Cities, and I have family members in a rural community that are members of a thriving congregation, though very small in number, but vibrant faith community that that needs a good pastor or a good deacon to be present with them and to lead lay folks in in the preaching and Bible study and leadership that's occurred. So I think, um, what we want to do is be present in those places, in those new spaces and provide, uh, an arc of learning everything from certificates for lay folks who may be called, asked by their bishop or other judicatory leader to preach on a regularly on a Sunday morning and they're retired, or they've been a teacher their whole life, and this is all new to them. I think we have a responsibility to accompany those folks and to say we can provide some resources for you and with you. And I think we also have a responsibility to continue to educate the next generation of not only of pastors, but of seminary faculty members who will need to adapt in ways that we can only imagine. And just one little illustration here. I just want to note I'm the only person with papers in front of me. My three colleagues all have your laptops open. Um, because our folks are going to need to adapt to very different ways of being. And I still like to have a piece of paper from time to time. Um, the other thing I think is, is that, um, we worship an incarnational God who took on human flesh to be among us. And digital spaces are beautiful, and we also need spaces for people to gather on bread and wine and word and prayer and laying on of hands and anointing with oil and a washing of feet, because that is also how God is present in our midst, in and through the engagement with each other, in community. And. And so how to do both of those kinds of things in ways that are credible and trustworthy and that connect us with where people are at on their faith journey? I think that really matters in this day and age.

Terri Elton: So I want to take this just a little bit deeper, maybe or more specific. I, as the dean academic dean, have really appreciated your expansive vision of theological education and inviting this as staff and faculty to think about that, because so not only have you been saying that you've invited us into that endeavor with you, and I want you to talk about as we look to the future, why is deep scholarship still matter, and why do accessible forms of theological education matter? Because I hear you inviting not only the faculty, but our staff. And I mean, we are researching and we are asking, taking sabbaticals and looking at different things just as we're expanding our digital platforms. Right. And trying to figure out how to communicate. Why is that for Luther? Why do you think that's so important for us to continue both of those endeavors?

Robin Steinke: Yeah. Thank you Terri. I think it's deeply rooted in our history and tradition, right? Where thought leadership really matters. Luther Seminary has always been a place that has tried to amplify the theological work of our faculty. And I think as we have drawn some really creative and amazing staff into this, into this work, and as we are experiencing churches that are making this pivot from clergy led, lay supported to lay led, clergy supported, we have to model that as well. And we have some amazing lay folks and staff that are part of this team. And I think we need to amplify thought leadership. Look, friends, we all know the internet is filled with all kinds of free bad theology out there. Just Google God and it will all be, uh, in front of you. So this moment and what's ahead for us all is the need for deep thought leadership around these complex questions. We cannot simplify the season that we're in in a reductionist kind of theological pablum. Shut up and believe just. We're not going to take questions seriously. God tells you to do X rather than saying no. Actually, this is a really complex moment. And so we have colleagues like Grace Pomeroy, who's who's workshop on funding forward the future of the funding of of congregational ministry, or what to do with crumbling buildings in theological education, had more than 700 participants. That really matters, I think, Alicia, of your own leadership in the faith lead work and just how much you've done to cultivate a kind of thoughtful Full engagement with Scripture and with learners. That really matters for the work today. So I think that's why why it really matters. We have a long history of top theological scholars that have defined their field over the years. That continues with the folks we have here, and I think is further amplified by the work of some terrific staff that we have.

Dwight Zscheile: Building on that word history for a minute, step back and take maybe a larger view of the church and theological education more broadly beyond Luther. Um, you know, I'm curious about some of the the historic models going all the way back to the life of Jesus that we can recover in some ways and rediscover for today. So when you think about how Jesus formed disciples, you know, the ancient first century rabbinical model of apprenticeship and community, very life on life, hands on, doing stuff and reflecting, while you watched and imitated the master, the rabbi, and then over time, you know, apprentice models have also been very much of a thread, even in the American history of the church, where people may not have, you know, gone to do a traditional university kind of model of education or had accessibility to that. And certainly in many communities of color in American history, there have been different models. What are some models that you're finding to be inspirational as we think about theological education as a whole and in this complex moment, right where we can deliver in digital engagement and we can do professional education. But what about those getting back to our pivot around discipleship from membership to discipleship? How might we help solve for that challenge as well? Right. Deepening that followership of Jesus. That apprenticeship of Jesus.

S5: Yeah.

Robin Steinke: Thanks, Dwight. Again, such a such a good question. I think one of the things that that I've been really amazed is the work of our academic dean team. Terri, I'm going to talk about you now. Uh, of of Ralph and Terri and and this deep commitment to face to face working together in what we call the residential focus session for this intense, very brief period of time and then a continuation in a digital space that allows people to come together for these deep, formative experiences. I think that's really creative and and it really works. I think it helps to form people in communities of practice, and it also embeds the learner long term in a community of practice, not the seminary. And I think that's really critical because guess what? We learned from our what we called our MDX experiment. That intensive 24 months of full MDiv. That the the learning outcomes and the formation for ministry outcomes were stronger in those students that were embedded in a community of practice for that 24 months rather than on on a seminary campus. So I'm really curious about that. Right. What is it about faith communities that come alongside a learner and help them live into who they're being called as a pastor, a deacon, a leader in a community of practice? I'm really curious about that. I became a pastor after being a middle school band director and a stockbroker financial planner, because I was embedded in a community that, much to my annoyance, kept referring to me as pastor. And finally I thought, okay, I'm going to, you know, take a class at a seminary and get this out of the way and fell in love with with this whole task of theology. Right. Communities of practice really matter. And this kind of faithful discipleship where we gather around bread and wine and water and word and church dinners and worship services and community outreach, coat closets and food pantries that are serving the neighbors, the neighbors we know and the neighbors we don't yet know. I think that helps cultivate. It's a place where the Holy Spirit is at work and active, and helping us see the face of God in the neighbor through all of this.

Terri Elton: Picking up on that, one of the things that I so appreciate about Luther Seminary is in that history. Luther Seminary has not let go of congregations or faith communities themselves for the sake of is not just learning. While we've expanded our understanding of learners or leaders learners, We've also continued to hold on to what does it mean to be a Christian community and to serve in that? So how is Luther Seminary leading, engaging, helping congregations or the church more broadly make these turns, this pivot, and and say a little bit more about how is that playing out in this time?

Robin Steinke: Yeah. Thanks, Terri. This is really complicated, right? You never quite know how you're helping some of these congregations. You think, well, this will be really helpful. And and then you discover, no, actually that wasn't so helpful. And so I think one is humility, right? Let's not be so presumptuous that we know how to fix the church. Alicia, going back to, you know, the pivot from from fixing to listening and discerning. So I think we we need to we need to model that. And we are modeling that in all the listening across the country. We do a lot of assessment here at Luther Seminary to say, tell us what you're learning. Tell us what you're seeing. Help us see. Is this helpful or not helpful? I think the work on Enter the Bible was particularly important as we learned over the pandemic that a lot of congregations felt at sea. Uh, I don't know why I'm into these water metaphors here today. Um, maybe it's a baptismal theme that's emerging here, but where they felt really at sea because they were having to do their own Bible studies, many of them were taking place in homes, rather than the pastor leading a Bible study in a congregation. And so we did this deep work to refresh the Enter the Bible, led by another faculty member, Kathryn Schifferdecker, professor of Old Testament. And that has grown exponentially over the last couple of years. So paying attention, listening, and instead of saying, no, we know what you need saying. You tell us what you need and then amplifying again some of our faculty thought leadership voices because we don't always know what we need for ourselves. And I think that's true for congregations as well. And so sometimes we need to to offer something that folks may not know they actually need. Um, and I think one way we're doing that is a project to refresh some of our confessional documents in the coming years to say, do these documents now, uh, coming up on our 500th anniversary of the Augsburg Confession and the catechisms, do they still have resonance, and in what ways? And inviting our faculty to some thought leadership around that? I think that really matters to continue this deep listening and to model that deep listening really well.

S5: Yeah.

Alicia Granholm: Thanks, Robin. Robin, as far as you can tell today, how does Luther plan to prepare both traditional and non-traditional students for ministry. In this mixed ecology, where we have our legacy, you know, institutional forms of congregation and gathering and emerging new communities.

Robin Steinke: Yeah, we're already doing it. And I I'm reminded when you asked that question, Elisa, of this phrase from the Middle Ages, this Latin phrase called lex orandi, lex credendi, which I have interpreted over the years to mean that when we pray, we we in essence practice our way into believing this strange mystery of a living God who's promised to be present in our midst to redeem us. And I think about the ways in which we practice our way into believing this amazing story of the living God who has called us and claimed us to be God's people, who has has enabled our sense of belonging, not because of what we say or what we do or what we confess, but because of how we are together and what God has promised that we live into this way of being the people of God. Because that's what God has called us to do and to be, and what God makes possible through the power of the Holy Spirit in a community. There's a reason that this message of the gospel was given and entrusted to a community, and not just to one, but to an entire community. And I and I think that's our call. And it's our challenge to educate leaders for Christian communities. What's changed is who are these leaders now, right? It's not just the pastor. It's a whole array of leaders. And and I think it always was when Christianity was but a movement around our Savior Jesus. And in the Post-resurrection stories, right? It was a movement, and it was laypeople leading this movement. And and what a wonderful, um, reprise to come back to that and to say, yes, this is the way God has, has, has called us all along. We've forgotten sometimes as a tradition, what the priesthood of believers actually calls forth from us. And we've thought, if you're a pastor, you know, uh, I think of my high school basketball coach at commencement said, if it's to be, it's up to me. That was the title of his commencement address. And I think sometimes we think that, yes, if it's to be, it's up to me and I've got to get these folks. And in fact, we're called to a much more, um, responsive, relational way of being in the world and praying our way and living our way in community, especially with those most on the edges, most on the fringes, and in whatever community you're at. In some cases, that's, uh, folks living in the local trailer park, uh, manufactured housing and other cases. It's folks living in tents on the street. Right? What, what where are the marginal communities? Uh, where where you are at? And how is God calling us to be deeply engaged with those communities?

Terri Elton: Well, thanks, President Steinke, for bringing us into your imagination. Thanks for your leadership. Thanks for your energy around seeing us in this moment, in the longer arc of history, and also as an opportunity for us to be a witness to the gospel in this changing culture and this changing church.

Robin Steinke: This is an adventure and it's great to be on it with you all.

S5: Put your.

Terri Elton: Seatbelt on. Right.

Dwight Zscheile: And to our audience, thank you for joining us on this episode of pivot. To help spread the word about pivot, please like and subscribe. If you're catching us on YouTube or if you're listening, head to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It really helps.

Alicia Granholm: And finally, the best compliment you can give us is to share. Pivot with a friend. Until next time. This is Alicia, Dwight, and Terri signing off, and we'll see you next week.

Faith+Lead voiceover: The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith+Lead. Faith+Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.