This week, we dig into “Breathless" by CPR, a group formed by David Crosby and a son he dsicovered late in life. The intricate harmonies, unexpected chord changes, and the interplay between acoustic and electric instrumentation belies the song's artistic depth and emotional resonance. The lyrics use repetition, descriptive imagery, and the metaphorical portrayal of a supportive and joyful relationship.

We discuss how the music industry has shifted over the past 15–20 years, with artists now able to record and distribute music independently, reducing reliance on traditional record labels.

Listen to the song

• YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5roGAz789g
• Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/1tBuk5BcGKtR9hFK2iAZoB?si=4f8a9d44101545f1
• Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/breathless/1501438604
• Amazon - https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B0DZV354MB?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_A1SGcs4DfJEKxgvoovZCmjUhk&trackAsin=B0DZV2NM9Z

Other links

• Playlist of the songs we’ve reviewed
• YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5bn23baJ4xQ1t0TMqukELY5W95HwuMoT
• Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7gCOF5M0zYS1fBvXgT5ccI?si=7F3yVdEDRRWa_gAArK3AYg
• Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/songs-reviewed-on-the-musicians-loupe/pl.u-V9D7maah06JNo
• Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/user-playlists/3b47be4937b7490982f4a872db32ec8dsune?ref=dm_sh_AEFZY8KhvSsz1TGoRmasg6zHZ
• Straight No Chaser

About us

Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.

As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.

Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.

Elaine: Hey, Trist, what do we have this week?

Trist: Oh, Elaine.

Trist: This week, we have David Crosby.

Trist: Did you know David Crosby had a son?

Elaine: No.

Trist: Did you know David Crosby had a band with his son in it?

Elaine: No.

Trist: Oh, well, I didn't either, until fairly recently.

Trist: And it turns out that.

Trist: Yes, I don't know the exact story.

Trist: You'll have to get on the interwebs, listeners, and figure

Trist: it out for yourself.

Trist: But something along the lines of this grown human just shows up

Trist: in his life one day and declares that he is his son, and they

Trist: find out he's his son.

Trist: And not only is he a son of his, but he's very musical and they

Trist: decide to have a band.

Trist: Why not?

Elaine: Okay, so you went from he had a son to he had a son that he

Elaine: discovered way later.

Trist: Yep.

Elaine: Okay, that's

Trist: They discovered

Elaine: a different

Trist: him

Elaine: story.

Trist: way later.

Trist: Yeah. It's a way different story, isn't it?

Elaine: It

Trist: It's

Elaine: totally

Trist: a good

Elaine: is.

Trist: it's a good lede for this episode.

Trist: And they were called CPR, the initials of the three main

Trist: founders of the band.

Trist: And the song this week from them is called "Breathless."

Elaine: Okay. I'm looking forward to listening to this.

Elaine: So before we get into it, can

Elaine: you remind all of us how we

Elaine: should be listening to music as

Elaine: members of The Musician's Loupe

Elaine: community?

Trist: Well, we love to encourage you to just improve your listening

Trist: situation if you can.

Trist: We walk through this life quite

Trist: often, quite frankly, blessed

Trist: with the amazing technology

Trist: anymore that you can get pretty

Trist: great sound out of pretty

Trist: minuscule speakers, but we don't

Trist: take the time to improve it if

Trist: we can.

Trist: So just if you have a moment to stop and put on the better

Trist: headphones or get to the good speakers, please do so.

Trist: We highly encourage it.

Trist: And as always, we are thrilled that you are listening to us,

Trist: regardless of the way that you are doing it.

Trist: So thank you for, bringing us

Trist: into your ears in whatever way

Trist: you are.

Trist: We appreciate it.

Elaine: All right, so we are going to go ahead and leave the links to

Elaine: this song in the show notes, and we'll be right back.

Elaine: And we're back.

Elaine: Oh, wow.

Elaine: That one was really, really interesting to listen to.

Trist: Yeah, I think it's cool.

Trist: Even though it's obviously not all the same.

Trist: And it's just one of the three

Trist: voices from Crosby, Stills &

Trist: Nash.

Trist: And it's not the same exact kind of songs or harmonies.

Trist: Still, there's something about that character of David Crosby's

Trist: voice in there that does catch your ear a little bit every once

Trist: in a while, like, oh yes, I do know the sound of that voice in

Trist: a bunch of harmonies.

Trist: So

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: I thought, that's really cool.

Elaine: In listening to this, one of the things that really struck me was

Elaine: how musical things were.

Elaine: Like, the harmonies were really, really tight.

Elaine: Sometimes when you hear

Elaine: harmonies, they're a little bit

Elaine: sloppy.

Elaine: But this was incredible.

Elaine: Just thinking about how "on" each one of the harmonies was

Elaine: and how precise things were.

Elaine: And so just as a vocalist, someone who has sung in a lot of

Elaine: vocal ensembles, it was incredible to hear.

Trist: Yeah, I think just unexpected

Trist: for me, too, when I first heard

Trist: them.

Trist: I don't know if I was expecting those particular voicings or

Trist: those particular chords.

Trist: They're not like super unusual

Trist: or weird, but just different

Trist: enough from what I was

Trist: expecting, which is always

Trist: great.

Trist: I like some of the twists and turns of the chord changes.

Elaine: I want to focus on the chord

Elaine: changes because that was one of

Elaine: the most interesting things for

Elaine: me.

Elaine: I felt like every fourth chord was a surprise for me, and that

Elaine: was something that I loved.

Elaine: And it was a surprise.

Elaine: Not that it was out of the key, but that it just went someplace

Elaine: that I didn't expect.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: And I didn't feel like there was a consistency in it.

Elaine: It was like turning the corner

Elaine: in a maze and recognizing some

Elaine: kind of really surprising

Elaine: topiary.

Elaine: And, I was just thinking about

Elaine: how delightful it was to listen

Elaine: to something just so

Elaine: interesting.

Trist: I just like so many aspects of it.

Trist: I like the instrumentation.

Trist: I like the colors of those chords.

Trist: I like the riff.

Trist: Then it goes back to, in the

Trist: middle, just a cool vibey intro

Trist: sets up a good vibe for the

Trist: whole thing, the beginning of

Trist: it.

Elaine: Let's talk a little bit about the instrumentation.

Elaine: I marked it down as primarily

Elaine: acoustic instruments, except for

Elaine: that little electric solo in the

Elaine: middle.

Elaine: But it was interesting for me

Elaine: because I think we've been

Elaine: listening to songs that might be

Elaine: a little bit more processed, and

Elaine: this one sounded a lot less

Elaine: processed.

Trist: Indeed.

Elaine: We're talking almost a

Elaine: traditional jazz trio, plus an

Elaine: acoustic guitar.

Elaine: And then in the middle the electric guitar comes out.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: What else did you hear in there?

Trist: I was expecting maybe there'd be

Trist: more later, but I liked the

Trist: little pizzicato string parts at

Trist: the beginning also setting up

Trist: the vibe.

Trist: I'm actually now not remembering if I heard them before.

Trist: I just love the way that that is in there, the way it sets up.

Trist: And then really just that their

Trist: voices take up so much of the

Trist: sonic space.

Trist: There's not a lot of extra instrumentation needed.

Elaine: I was listening to the acoustic

Elaine: guitar as well as the pizzicato

Elaine: part.

Elaine: Like that was something that I wrote down.

Elaine: I heard the pizz part the second time around.

Elaine: And for people who don't know

Elaine: pizzicato is the plucked violin

Elaine: is it?

Trist: actually could work for any string instrument.

Trist: They're generally referred to

Trist: like, cello, more orchestral

Trist: strings, more than like guitar

Trist: strings.

Trist: But

Elaine: Right.

Trist: yeah.

Elaine: That's right.

Elaine: And so, as I was listening to

Elaine: that, it caught me by surprise

Elaine: the second time around because I

Elaine: didn't hear it the first time

Elaine: around.

Elaine: And the one thing I heard about the acoustic guitar, was that it

Elaine: was mixed very treble, and that was something that I did notice,

Elaine: because a lot of the sonic space that you were talking about, the

Elaine: vocals, the piano, the bass was kind of that mid to low range,

Trist: It

Elaine: and

Trist: definitely.

Elaine: the guitar was in this higher range, and it was

Trist: Yeah, that makes

Elaine: only

Trist: sense.

Elaine: in the higher range.

Elaine: And I think also rhythmically,

Elaine: it was doing something really

Elaine: interesting.

Elaine: It started out with arpeggiation, moved into

Elaine: strumming, switched back to arpeggiation, and then switched

Elaine: back to strumming.

Elaine: And when it was doing the

Elaine: strumming, I felt like that was

Elaine: much more of a rhythmic thing,

Elaine: like it was holding a rhythmic

Elaine: center as

Trist: Sure.

Elaine: opposed to holding a melodic or a tonal center, even though it

Elaine: is a tonal instrument.

Trist: Sure.

Elaine: So just interesting to think about how the acoustic fits

Elaine: within the context of this song.

Trist: Yeah. And that makes sense.

Trist: The shift in texture, likely with a lot of the instruments

Trist: like that, you'll do a shift like that to denote the

Trist: different sections going from verses to choruses.

Elaine: One of the other things that I did notice as well was the

Elaine: places where it got a lot less busy, where all of a sudden

Elaine: you're holding out notes or something is resonating, you're

Elaine: letting it ring.

Elaine: And that happened a couple of

Elaine: times in the song where it went

Elaine: from very, very busy to very,

Elaine: very open and then back to busy

Elaine: again.

Elaine: And that I think was a part of the texture as well.

Trist: That makes sense.

Trist: As you said, it probably is outlined by what's happening

Trist: lyrically in those sections.

Elaine: So one maybe criticism that I

Elaine: would have is that it really did

Elaine: sound very mushy to me in the

Elaine: center between the vocals and

Elaine: the piano.

Elaine: It just felt like it was in the same range for all of it.

Elaine: And it was very hard for me to

Elaine: distinguish lyrics until I had

Elaine: the lyrics right in front of me

Elaine: and was listening for those

Elaine: specific words.

Elaine: Can

Trist: Sure.

Elaine: you talk a little bit about that?

Elaine: And, I don't know whether you like it or not, or the role of

Elaine: mixing in how we process music.

Trist: Well, also sometimes, when

Trist: you're doing the mix, it's

Trist: difficult to find the mix that

Trist: sounds good and as many

Trist: listening environments as

Trist: possible, whether it's car

Trist: stereos, AirPods, small

Trist: headphones, big headphones, home

Trist: stereos, trying to make

Trist: everything even and have good

Trist: mastering.

Trist: Even that whole riff, bum bum bum bum bum bum, even that just

Trist: carries a lot of low end with it in the bass and the piano.

Trist: Anytime you're doubling those low parts of the piano and the

Trist: bass, and then it's male voices.

Trist: So even if the literal notes

Trist: aren't down there with it,

Trist: something about those vibrations

Trist: in the lower mid range, would be

Trist: a problem I would have to deal

Trist: with all those years touring

Trist: with the group Straight No

Trist: Chaser, I would be their tour

Trist: engineer.

Trist: And it's ten male voices, a cappella and almost every room

Trist: normally has tones build up right in the low mid range.

Trist: A lot of times I used to joke without hearing anything, I

Trist: could just kind of cut a bunch of that range out.

Trist: And sometimes I was so used to that, that a song or two in, I

Trist: would realize just by habit, I had dumped so much of it.

Trist: I'm like listening and thinking,

Trist: man, why does the show sound so

Trist: thin today?

Trist: Because I just assumed that the

Trist: room was going to sound like

Trist: that.

Trist: So, all that to say that when the lead vocal happens in the

Trist: same place, even though there are tricks you can do to try to

Trist: pull that out and make it more discernible, it is a place where

Trist: you can run into trouble hearing a lyric pop out or a melodic

Trist: instrument that lives in that area that you want to stand out.

Trist: You have to do lots of other tricks in the mix to get it to

Trist: stand out in front of the rest.

Elaine: Like what happened with the acoustic.

Trist: Yeah. In that instance, I'm sure the full range of that guitar

Trist: probably also dumped down into there and they're like, okay,

Trist: yeah, we have plenty of that.

Trist: Let's just cut a bunch of that

Trist: thinner and let's accentuate the

Trist: top.

Trist: That sounds right to me.

Elaine: And the right hand of the piano was right around middle C, which

Elaine: is pretty much in the middle of the tenor range

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: as well.

Elaine: So the lead vocal was sitting

Elaine: right on top of where the piano

Elaine: was playing.

Trist: That's true.

Trist: It does.

Trist: And that's probably also why even just the little high

Trist: harmonic parts of that pizzicato thing at the top, it just

Trist: introduces, hey, don't forget there's going to be sound up

Trist: here too, eventually.

Trist: Just wait.

Trist: Almost an acknowledgment:

Trist: somewhere in the song, we need

Trist: some high frequency things

Trist: happening.

Elaine: One of the other things that I heard that I think fed into the

Elaine: sense of mushiness was how much sustain pedal was in the piano.

Elaine: It had that round sound of an

Elaine: actual piano, so it wasn't thin

Elaine: at all.

Elaine: But you heard that ringing, you heard the sustain pedal.

Elaine: And for those of you who aren't

Elaine: familiar with piano, when you

Elaine: hold down the sustain pedal, it

Elaine: takes all of the pads off of the

Elaine: string.

Elaine: So it begins to ring inside of the piano itself.

Elaine: And so the sound just keeps on

Elaine: going until you let go of the

Elaine: damper and then press it down

Elaine: again for that next sense of

Elaine: ringing.

Elaine: And I think that ringing also fed into that sense of, well,

Elaine: there's a lot going on and it's all in the same register.

Elaine: And it's really hard for me to distinguish the words and

Elaine: distinguish the voices.

Trist: Sure. And I suppose creatively, it could be even a conscious

Trist: choice, like, okay, are we going to forsake the intelligibility

Trist: of every single lyric for the vibe and the sound that we want?

Trist: Because it has a vibe about it,

Trist: a very particular sound

Trist: signature.

Trist: Just that low mid, almost

Trist: creepy, spooky kind of vibe a

Trist: little bit.

Trist: And if that's what is paramount, then sometimes that might win

Trist: out over you understanding all the words on this one line.

Elaine: So as we're talking about the

Elaine: instrumentation, let's talk a

Elaine: little bit about the rhythm,

Elaine: because I felt like rhythm was

Elaine: such a key part of this song

Elaine: itself.

Elaine: Can you talk about the beginning?

Elaine: You were talking about the riff that you really liked and the

Elaine: rhythm that you really liked.

Trist: I just like the riff.

Trist: It's very simple, but I like

Trist: when a riff like that can be

Trist: effective.

Trist: I know that most of the listeners know what I'm talking

Trist: about, but on this it's the doom doom doom doom doom doom.

Trist: Bum bum bum bum bum bum.

Trist: That happens at several places.

Trist: It returns to that.

Trist: It's like a little returning theme.

Trist: The riff is just a great setup.

Trist: Like before any singing happens,

Trist: it's just like, "Ooh, okay, I

Trist: can't wait.

Trist: What's gonna happen?" Like I'm sitting at the edge of my seat

Trist: the way that little theme comes through, you're anticipating

Trist: what the lyric's going to do.

Elaine: The other thing that I wanted to point out was the rhythm itself.

Elaine: So the drums itself, it really

Elaine: sounded almost like a heartbeat

Elaine: for me.

Elaine: I don't know if you caught that

Elaine: as well, but it had this very

Elaine: human heartbeat kind of sound to

Elaine: me.

Elaine: And I felt like that rhythm really helped me anchor into the

Elaine: song in a particular way.

Trist: And this whole thing, it's got a

Trist: very particular way that the

Trist: vocal sits in with the rhythm

Trist: section.

Trist: It's not a typical, absolutely in the pocket kind of a time,

Trist: which I think also helps to create the interest in it.

Elaine: Let's talk a little bit about

Elaine: the lyrics because I think

Elaine: you're right in that they do fit

Elaine: into the music in a very

Elaine: particular way.

Elaine: But one thing that I did notice,

Elaine: and this is again, a pet peeve

Elaine: of mine, I think anyone who's

Elaine: listened to this knows that I am

Elaine: all about staying on meter and

Elaine: making sure that the meter

Elaine: matches both the words and the

Elaine: melody.

Elaine: Songwriter pet peeve, but this one did not.

Elaine: This one definitely made meter choices that were a bit unusual,

Elaine: which I guess, given the context of the song, makes sense.

Trist: Are you talking about how the words are married to the melody?

Elaine: When I think about meter, I

Elaine: think about the emphasis of a

Elaine: particular word.

Elaine: If

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: I think about which syllable of

Elaine: the word has the emphasis, has

Elaine: the downbeat.

Elaine: A lot of times that does map to the melody and it maps to what

Elaine: is considered the downbeat.

Elaine: And so if you have an emphasis

Elaine: on a part of the word that we

Elaine: don't normally have a downbeat

Elaine: on.

Elaine: As we are actually saying it out loud, that

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: to me means that it's off meter.

Elaine: And so

Trist: Okay.

Elaine: in this one, there were melodic

Elaine: choices that emphasize parts of

Elaine: the word that were not natural,

Elaine: not the way that you would

Elaine: normally speak in American

Elaine: English.

Trist: That happens in songs sometimes.

Trist: It's just kind of like there was no really good choice.

Trist: Whenever I hear that, I put

Trist: myself in the songwriter and or

Trist: the singers spot and I go, oh,

Trist: man, that's so weird the way

Trist: they do that, as if they just

Trist: did one option and never thought

Trist: of it.

Trist: It's their creation.

Trist: I go through all the other ways

Trist: it could be done and usually go

Trist: through a whole cycle of them

Trist: and go, yep, the one they chose

Trist: is the only one that really kind

Trist: of works.

Trist: Who knew that the artists would do something that just was the

Trist: best that they could get away with in that moment.

Elaine: You're talking about like what you are particular about.

Elaine: That's the kind of thing that

Elaine: drives me nuts, knowing that I

Elaine: actually struggle with choosing

Elaine: the right word that fits into

Elaine: the meter.

Elaine: That's actually a big part of the songwriting process for me.

Elaine: And sometimes I'll dump out an entire lyric because it doesn't

Elaine: work rhythmically with what I'm trying to do.

Trist: Again, it's for everyone to choose what's paramount.

Trist: The vibe, the melody, the vowel,

Trist: the sound, the phrase, the

Trist: lyric.

Trist: Like, what's the most important thing there?

Trist: So there was some little things

Trist: like that, that bug you in this

Trist: one, huh?

Elaine: Yeah, it does, but if I take a look at the words themselves, I

Elaine: definitely see a lot of really great artistry here.

Elaine: I think about the use of repetition.

Elaine: I'm seeing the word "breathless" used multiple times

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: as a repetition in the second

Elaine: and fourth line in the chorus

Elaine: itself.

Elaine: And it is also a set of lyrics that are very descriptive.

Elaine: I've talked a bit about the word pictures that lyrics often paint

Elaine: and because lyrics are such a condensed art form, it is one of

Elaine: those things where you can't paint everything in as many

Elaine: words as you want.

Elaine: You have a limited number of words to describe exactly what

Elaine: you're going for.

Trist: Right. That's a trick, right?

Trist: Try to do that as best you can in as little as possible.

Elaine: That's right.

Elaine: And so as I take a look at the pre-chorus, I take a look at

Elaine: each one of these verses.

Elaine: It tells you a bit about a feeling.

Elaine: It doesn't tell you about specifics, like previous songs

Elaine: that we've done have talked very much about specific visuals and

Elaine: the visual picture helps you to understand what's going on.

Elaine: This one is describing feelings.

Elaine: And so it starts out with this

Elaine: dance we do leaves me

Elaine: breathless, and it really is

Elaine: talking about this metaphorical

Elaine: dance and the fact that the

Elaine: singer is feeling really off

Elaine: balance, right?

Elaine: "Reeling on the edge of falling down."

Elaine: But one thing that I found really sweet about this song was

Elaine: the description of the relationship that the singer or

Elaine: the singers, I guess, have with this other person.

Elaine: And I think about, the characters you have the you, I

Elaine: and the we.

Elaine: And so it's talking about this

Elaine: relationship that this couple

Elaine: has.

Elaine: It talks about "you try to walk and step and stumble, laughing.

Elaine: You hold each other up to stop the fall."

Elaine: And I think those two lines in

Elaine: and of itself showed me what

Elaine: type of relationship they were

Elaine: talking about.

Elaine: It's very supportive.

Elaine: If one person falls, you're

Elaine: trying to help the other person

Elaine: up.

Elaine: And at the same time, when you stumble, you're laughing.

Elaine: It's not something where someone

Elaine: stumbles and someone else is

Elaine: angry.

Elaine: And I think about that just in

Elaine: those few words, how it paints

Elaine: the picture of this relationship

Elaine: that is joyful, that is

Elaine: supportive, that is really

Elaine: trying to walk through life

Elaine: together.

Elaine: That's orbiting one another,

Elaine: that's magnetized to one

Elaine: another.

Elaine: What a beautiful thing that is.

Elaine: And so just looking at these lyrics.

Elaine: I would give it definitely like an A minus.

Elaine: If I were to grade it because

Elaine: the meter thing just drives me

Elaine: nuts.

Trist: Right.

Elaine: But I think that there are so

Elaine: many good things about these

Elaine: lyrics that help me feel like

Elaine: there's a lot in there for us to

Elaine: dig into.

Elaine: There's a meatiness in it.

Elaine: I know we've also talked about some songs where it's like, what

Elaine: you see is what you get.

Elaine: It's very on the surface, and then there are others that are a

Elaine: lot more artistic or descriptive or lyrical in

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: a way that really touches us deeply.

Elaine: I think

Trist: Or

Elaine: this falls into the second.

Trist: yeah.

Trist: Or have, multiple layers, multiple things that you can get

Trist: out of it.

Trist: I'm curious, did you notice that in the chorus, it says a bell

Trist: once struck and then the next time it says love is a bell.

Elaine: Yes.

Trist: It doesn't say love is a bell.

Trist: Love is a bell.

Elaine: Mm.

Trist: So that's an interesting just

Trist: because of the way that it's

Trist: sung.

Trist: Love is a bell.

Trist: The word, "uh," is kind of an uglier thing to sing.

Trist: If it

Elaine: Right.

Trist: was it literally just a sonic choice because

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: a kind of rings more.

Elaine: I looked at that and I was like,

Elaine: that's an oxymoron, because if

Elaine: you hold a bell, it stops

Elaine: ringing.

Elaine: So what do you mean it keeps on ringing?

Elaine: This is my literal self, right?

Elaine: My engineer brain is like, whoa, whoa, what do you mean?

Elaine: But I think once it got into the metaphor where it said, once it

Elaine: starts ringing, the closer you get, it gets louder.

Elaine: And I'm like, okay, I'm willing to accept that oxymoron.

Elaine: Now, one thing that I noticed that I don't know if you caught,

Elaine: but at the very, very end, it repeats the third line.

Elaine: That line that you just called out.

Elaine: Love is a

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: bell, once

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: rung will ring forever.

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: That forever is the last word.

Elaine: And

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: they hold it out forever.

Elaine: And it's like they're holding

Elaine: out that "Er" all the way out to

Elaine: the end.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: And

Trist: Forever

Elaine: it's

Trist: and

Elaine: like,

Trist: ever.

Elaine: I don't know, sixteen bars later,

Trist: Right.

Elaine: they're still singing that.

Trist: And as you said, the piano is held open, the cymbals ring like

Trist: so it could just go on forever.

Trist: They do everything they can at the end to not stifle anything

Trist: and to let it do that.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: I thought that was pretty neat.

Trist: Yeah. I enjoyed this one.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: Well, any last thoughts before we move on?

Trist: No. That's it.

Elaine: Okay. So with that, we are going to shift over to.

Trist: The mail bag?

Elaine: That's right.

Elaine: The mailbag.

Elaine: If you'd love to contribute to

Elaine: the mailbag or just let us know

Elaine: what you think, please email us

Elaine: at themusiciansloupe@gmail.com

Elaine: That's L o u p e, or you can

Elaine: message us on Instagram or

Elaine: Threads @themusiciansloupe.

Trist: You can drop us a line and let us know if you've heard this

Trist: band before, or if you actually know more stories about how they

Trist: were put together or how David Crosby found the son that he

Trist: didn't know he had.

Trist: If you have more info about that, please let us know.

Trist: Or if you just have any other

Trist: ideas about some things we

Trist: should cover.

Trist: So let us know.

Trist: Those are the places you can get ahold of us.

Trist: Please do so.

Elaine: Okay, so this week's mailbag comes from Threads.

Elaine: It's from

Elaine: @thescottyfraizerofficial it's Scotty

Elaine: Fraizer from November of 2025.

Elaine: And

Elaine: he writes, "I'm no music industry

Elaine: expert here, but I've just

Elaine: got to ask, why is everyone so

Elaine: hung up on getting a record deal

Elaine: and wanting one so bad, especially

Elaine: when many of them out there

Elaine: are basically designed to exploit

Elaine: the artist?" There were a

Elaine: lot of responses to this, but I'd

Elaine: love to hear your feedback on

Elaine: it. I

Elaine: think a lot of the feedback will probably be pretty similar.

Trist: Something that strikes me is

Trist: that this is only the end of

Trist: '25.

Trist: So it's not like that long ago.

Trist: It's evolved so much that I don't know anyone hung up on

Trist: getting a record deal.

Trist: So many times now, there's not much more they can do for you

Trist: that you can't do for yourself.

Trist: Not that it can't be helpful, but I don't feel like I happen

Trist: to know a lot of bands or musical entities who are hung up

Trist: on getting a record deal.

Trist: They're just not.

Trist: They're hung up on making music and figure out how they're going

Trist: to distribute it, because they can't do it like in the old days

Trist: when there was record deals.

Trist: We've talked about this a lot on this show.

Trist: You're not at the mercy of a record company.

Trist: Back in the day, you kind of needed the record company

Trist: because they were also your bank that would loan you the money.

Trist: You needed the money because it was really difficult to record

Trist: anything at a high quality.

Trist: And so you needed money to pay the studio to record something

Trist: in a high quality.

Trist: Well, that's changed so much and you can just do it in your

Trist: bedroom, or at your house.

Trist: So we don't need that part of it.

Trist: We can make this great art on

Trist: our own so we don't need them,

Trist: and the distribution channels

Trist: with the Internet is all

Trist: changed.

Trist: So all that stuff has changed so much.

Trist: The things that we desire from what a label used to do for us

Trist: are still the same desires.

Trist: It's just in some ways become more complicated to find them,

Trist: but easier that you don't have to have the acceptance of a

Trist: small number of people that happen to work at one of the few

Trist: labels to make you be able to do the thing you want to do.

Trist: You can still do it.

Trist: You just have to do all the work yourself.

Elaine: Let's pick that apart a little bit because that was so chock

Elaine: full of information there.

Elaine: Let's start out by: when do you

Elaine: think we made that turn as an

Elaine: industry?

Trist: In some ways it's not fully changed.

Trist: It's not absolutely gone.

Trist: There's still some of that thing.

Trist: And again, the things that they did and do for you are still

Trist: needed to be done.

Trist: It's just they're not the ones always doing them.

Trist: I don't know, it's been fifteen or twenty years?

Elaine: So certainly I understand distribution.

Elaine: It is a lot easier to distribute nowadays.

Elaine: But I also think that there are avenues that most artists don't

Elaine: have access to.

Elaine: I don't know how relevant they are though.

Elaine: So the types of things that I think a record label or the

Elaine: types of industry connections can get you, like if you walk in

Elaine: and you don't have any industry connections whatsoever, you just

Elaine: have a big social following or something like that, right?

Elaine: Certainly you can directly distribute your music to them.

Elaine: There's also the types of things around Grammys or the other

Elaine: types of award shows that I think also highlight music.

Elaine: Some people certainly follow the

Elaine: awards and say, oh, that's

Elaine: actually a discovery opportunity

Elaine: for people.

Elaine: So television, getting onto shows like placement in shows,

Elaine: do those also pick up what we would traditionally call an

Elaine: indie type of artist?

Trist: Well, here's the thing.

Trist: What's never changed is you're

Trist: trying to get your music in

Trist: places where the most people can

Trist: hear it, but because there's

Trist: been a change in places you can

Trist: hear music.

Trist: It's not just waiting by the

Trist: radio with your tape deck for

Trist: them to play that one song you

Trist: like, so you can hit record and

Trist: have on your cassette tape from

Trist: the radio.

Trist: Or there's not just X number of TV stations with a late night

Trist: show that have the artists on, which are directly related to

Trist: the ten labels that exist that have just a running: "Cool.

Trist: Hey, Warner Brothers, when are you sending your next artists

Trist: over?" It's just like there's a whole system at play.

Trist: And of course, eventually as it got broken up, we were hearing

Trist: how there's a lot of pay to play, a lot of money going to a

Trist: lot of people that aren't the artists just to get the music on

Trist: certain TV shows, on certain radio shows, certain radio

Trist: programmers would have an entire part of a country where if the

Trist: label paid them enough money, they would feed those songs to

Trist: the different radio stations in an entire area.

Trist: That doesn't have anything with the great band from down the

Trist: street that's amazing, but they don't have that contact.

Trist: Prior to that, they never left your block.

Trist: Now they can record it on their own and get the following and

Trist: get listeners that way.

Trist: I'm talking in circles here

Trist: about this, but because the

Trist: whole thing has changed, there

Trist: isn't easy plug and play, like

Trist: get a label, they put it through

Trist: all the systems, and now it's in

Trist: all the places where you can

Trist: hear it.

Trist: You know, like there's so many amazing places to find

Trist: entertainment and have this music placed, that's the trick.

Trist: Like, is it all streamed?

Trist: How do you get it in front of people?

Trist: That's the big trick now.

Elaine: I think there is a perception

Elaine: that the music label would help

Elaine: you with scale and could also

Elaine: help you with things like

Elaine: marketing, although you could

Elaine: also hire your own staff to do

Elaine: marketing.

Elaine: So that's not something

Trist: Yes.

Elaine: that you definitely need to

Trist: Yeah,

Elaine: rely on a label to

Trist: yeah.

Elaine: do.

Trist: This is a place that a label can still be helpful.

Trist: They're still functional and

Trist: still can do incredible things

Trist: for an artist, but even they

Trist: have to be creative and figure

Trist: out new ways, because they don't

Trist: just have the three to five

Trist: spots, they just put something

Trist: out and wipe their hands of it,

Trist: and it does the work they have

Trist: to do.

Trist: They can be very useful, but they have to be more creative

Trist: now than ever also.

Elaine: It's definitely something to

Elaine: think about, especially with

Elaine: what we've been talking about

Elaine: the democratization.

Elaine: And I think, though, that the

Elaine: whole marketing game is

Elaine: something that is hugely

Elaine: complex.

Elaine: And so if you can rely on experts on this, again, like I

Elaine: said before, that is something that we can just go ahead and

Elaine: learn more and do more and experiment more on our own.

Elaine: So it is just something for us to think about, in terms of what

Elaine: is the value?

Elaine: Is it something that even people should aspire to, and what

Elaine: benefit do they bring?

Elaine: Especially if we can do it yourself.

Elaine: And maybe it is one of those

Elaine: things where it just allows you

Elaine: to concentrate more on just

Elaine: making music and being in the

Elaine: right place at the right time,

Elaine: and someone else manages your

Elaine: time.

Elaine: And that also comes with downsides.

Elaine: Certainly we've seen things in the past, about how locked in

Elaine: artists were with contracts that could be exploitative and what

Elaine: that meant for their music.

Elaine: And also there are parallels in other industries as well.

Elaine: We've talked about the book

Elaine: industry before, and I think

Elaine: that's something that is

Elaine: somewhat similar, where if you

Elaine: sell a book to a publisher, you

Elaine: get an advance and that helps

Elaine: you tide over until you complete

Elaine: the book.

Elaine: They expect you to have your own marketing presence, but in terms

Elaine: of booking tours, talking to people, getting larger stages,

Elaine: those are things that a publishing house can open doors

Elaine: for you that you wouldn't have necessarily been able to get by

Elaine: yourself on your own marketing.

Trist: Yep.

Elaine: Any last thoughts before we wrap up here?

Trist: I know we'll hit versions of this topic throughout the pod.

Trist: I think at the end of the day, I would like to think that it's

Trist: the case that if you're just really good, that's usually the

Trist: most important thing.

Trist: If you're that good, you will find an audience.

Trist: So don't forget that: adding value and improving your

Trist: abilities and improving your artistic output is never going

Trist: to let you down.

Elaine: I think I agree in principle, but at the same time, I've seen

Elaine: far too many examples where it hasn't been the case.

Elaine: And so maybe I'm a little more jaded than you are on this, but

Elaine: I'm willing to hold out hope.

Trist: Oh, no, there's hundreds of amazing artists that no one ever

Trist: hears, and it's depressing.

Trist: I just try not to talk about it

Trist: that way because it's

Trist: depressing.

Elaine: Well, I think that we also need to remain committed and in some

Elaine: ways it enables us to be realistic, pragmatic and also

Elaine: know that there is a path forward and that with the luck

Elaine: and the algorithm and friends and family supporting you, and

Elaine: also maybe even a change in definition of what success

Elaine: means, that is something that we've talked about as well.

Trist: Yep, that's a big one.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: And with that, we're going to wrap up this week.

Elaine: But before we do, we have a big favor to ask of you.

Elaine: We would love for you to share an episode with a friend.

Elaine: We know that our listeners are music lovers and we know that

Elaine: you know other music lovers.

Elaine: So if you have an episode that

Elaine: you really love, please share it

Elaine: with a friend because we would

Elaine: love to have more listeners join

Elaine: our community.

Trist: If you liked this particular episode, this song, or you look

Trist: through the episodes and you see a song that a friend of yours

Trist: might be interested in knowing about, or if you want to just

Trist: look through them on one of the playlists on the songs that we

Trist: source from these different carriers, please look at the

Trist: lists and maybe send the whole list to a friend and they can

Trist: then choose if there's a song they're interested in.

Trist: We'd love you to share it with those who might be into it.

Trist: Appreciate it.

Elaine: Definitely.

Elaine: So thank you for joining us.

Elaine: We will see you next week.

Elaine: Sorry. My voice cracked.

Elaine: Um, they're definitely- Cracked again.

Trist: I was like, oh, that ruins my next question.

Trist: I was like, you had a very simple job, Elaine.

Elaine: You know, another thing I got to mute.

Elaine: Sorry, I need to pause for a moment apparently my family's

Elaine: blowing up my phone.

Elaine: I'm waiting for you to stop

Elaine: laughing so that I could

Elaine: actually get like a clean take

Elaine: on this.

Trist: I wanted to say set lists

Elaine: Thank you, Fletcher.

Elaine: I'm waiting for you to stop

Elaine: laughing so that I could

Elaine: actually get like a clean take

Elaine: on this.