Passwords and PINs have long been overshadowed by fingerprint scanners and facial recognition software in our smartphones. These new ways of authenticating a person are known as the Biometrics of a person. They make our lives easier, are unique and we don't have to remember anything. It does come with its own risks leading to identity theft, etc. but it's a far superior technology for authenticating someone physically in a digital world.

In this week's talk, Amit and Rinat talk about Biometrics, its various types, its applications and a lot more!

Hi everyone, welcome to Tech Talk, a podcast where Amit and I talked about various technology related topics. Today's topic is biometrics. It's a very interesting topic Amit has come up with and we were talking about it earlier as well and I found it really helpful for our audience to be aware of and all the different things that we that can be considered as biometrics. As soon as we hear biometrics, you might think of, you know, the two most commonly known ones like fingerprint and retinal scan. But there are so many other facets of biometrics that we're going to talk about today. I mean, just from the main if we think about anything biological metric of anything biological and we're using it to identify so it usually apply to humans. So, you know, all our biological markers from retina to odour, to voice to fingerprint, all of these things, and that's just a source of information, how it's processed, how it's used. That's also there could be also differences on that factor as well. So based on that Biometrics is actually quite a large field and there's so many things to know about. And it's also good to know about in terms of you know, to be aware of all the technological advancements that are going on how it's being used for you/ against you and you know, in the background of you, without you knowing, so, you know, various government organisations and other organisation might use your biometric information in a way that you would like for the Raiders or you may not like so, there are reasons to know about all the things that are going on out there. And that's one of the reasons that we thought you guys would really be helped being aware of it. Thank you Amit, for coming up with this topic. I am actually, you know, less knowledgeable. I don't really know the very surface level knowledge but I'm quite excited to discuss all of these things with you. So what's your thoughts on biometrics on it?

So thanks. Thanks so much again, Rinat for that great introduction. I think you've summarized quite a lot. And I think that gives the gist to the audience. But I just wanted to say we have biometrics biological measurements, but why are we measuring it in the first place? What's the need to measure it? I mean, are we doing it for login? We are we doing it to authorise someone or authenticate someone or allow someone access to something and how and why can't we use anything else? Why biological markers are being used or biological measurements are being used? So I think that's the most important question. In technology today, we use biometrics very casually and we don't think about it quite a lot. But biometrics are there to actually make, give access to programmes or to websites, or to government data like passport, visa, etc. Easily, and you don't have to carry anything or remember anything. It's just you going physically somewhere, using your fingerprints using your eyes or your facial features, or your voice and you can quickly author authenticate or authorise that, yes, I am the person whom I'm saying and, and there is no duplicate version of me or a clone of me, and you can please provide me access. So I think that's very important to understand.

Yeah, absolutely. And an interesting thing to think about is the biometrics actually has been around for a long time than we might think, you know, now with technological advancement and integration with your phone and everything. We think it's a new technology, but actually, even before this digital age, when you were say for example, you wanted to own a will. But you know, in early 1900s, or even 1800s you do not everyone knew how to read and write or have a signature. So fingerprint was one of the ways to actually signature replaced fingerprint. So before you had signature you had fingerprint to identify someone and identify someone with certainty that this person this fingerprint belongs to this person. And then with the advent of technology like pens, and paper and you know, as people got more educated and then had their signature, then eventually replaced with the pen. Signature by pen So yeah, fingerprint has been around and that's one of the biological markers that we measure, to identify, I think, as you were saying, Amit, one of the one of the reason why this became more and more popular nowadays is the need to identify someone in digital world. We all have our presence, digital presence we have in social media or wherever different accounts and we need to be able to identify someone because we don't know if the person they're saying they are, are the actual are actually that person. So, biometric is a really good way to identify more of a certain way to identify because a lot of your login information say for example, you identify yourself digitally with your email address and password, you know, as you sign it, but that can be hacked for that. Information. You know, you might inadvertently pass around to your friends and family, but in in situations where the authorities or you do not want in any way, you know for anyone, even your close friends and family to identify as yourself. For example, in passport situation, you might want it but the government or authorities would not want anyone else to represent you. So in these scenarios, biometrics are quite helpful and quite a good solution to this problem. As a result of you know, because there's this technological need or this business need, that's why there were a lot more research to find out how to identify someone with certainty. Now, you know, for example, there is a spectrum of different biological markers being giving you the level, different level of certainty. So for example, DNA evidence is like, you know, one of the ones that are in the top of the spectrum, they can be like 99.99% such that this DNA belongs to this person, there's, there's a very, very little chance that that could there could be a duplicate or there could be an error, whereas you know, if you're just a facial recognition that that would probably be 96 or 97% accurate and there is a spectrum of that. And based on the level of, you know, the value of thing that you're protecting, you know, you could use different types of these biometrics. That's why governments usually use fingerprint and I think what else do government says I can only remember fingerprints right now AMit.

So it's not just fingerprints. They take a photograph of you, right? Yeah. And so whenever you go at airports, they will ask you to point your face at a camera. And so this is this is not for people who have passports, that you can just scan at a gate and then go through the airport security, also the airport borders or the immigration. So these are people who have visas. And for those visas, the person physically scans the visa, ask you to use some of your fingers or thumb or an index finger to take the fingerprint to match it with the data that they have in their database. And they also try to ask you to they ask you to face a camera so they can take a picture and they can verify that whether this it's the same person as it's there in in their records. So yes, biometrics that way. I mean, it's very crucial for governments so that people cannot fake identities. And as you as you rightly mentioned, it's all about verification of identities and making sure that the right person is getting the right access, access tools, country access to borders, access to any security related, in defence, you will have lots of areas where you deal with confidential information. And in those cases, you cannot just share those confidential information to anyone. So there might be secret projects. I mean, we see it in a lot of Hollywood films, and I'm pretty sure that that's something real. So I'm guessing what happens is that there are people who are given certain levels of access, and those access are sometimes in a security card and merged with an additional biomarker, say your fingerprints or your retina scan or your facial recognition. So yeah, so those are still quite important. I mean, one of the things that I mean, you mentioned about earlier is that we have been using the fingerprints for a very long time and even when the technology was not there, and we were using our thumbprint to identify people, but of course that that can be easily replicable as we have seen in a lot of movies. You take the fingerprint off from a glass or something, and then you create a VAX out of it. And then you try to replicate that but of course, it's movies, I'm sure the there might be some real basis to it. And then moving on, we have our handwriting's everyone has a unique style of writing, even holding a pen so every person has a unique style. of holding the pen, some hold it subordinate like this, some audit like this. So, there are various ways and some hold it in the right hand some hold it in the left hand. So there are different ways in which people hold their pen. And some people prefer writing using a ball pen. Some people prefer writing using an ink pen, etc, etc. And the way some people write legible words, cursive writing, some people just write different alphabets and you and they just give some spaces in between. Every person is unique and signature becomes a kind of a biological marker because a signature is basically representing the motion of your hand on a piece of paper using the pen. And that is, I think, quite useful and over a period of time. We have then adapted. These things are two different types of biological measurements. So we initially started I mean, and most of us now have mobile phones. So when we started using mobile phones, one of the first things we wanted to do was lock the phone so there was always a password or a pin or some kind of

a shape that you could draw and that would unlock your phone. Or you could press a button to unlock it, but it was not very secure. You can easily guess passwords if you've written it down or if you forget it. It's very easy. But then the phones came with the fingerprint scanners. Those fingerprint scanners. When they came, they used to scan first the thumb or the finger that's most comfortable for you to open a phone and then they would use that fingerprint to verify every time you try to unlock it. And that was and that has become pretty good in itself. And then we moved on to facial recognition. So Apple started with facial recognition and it is one of the best facial recognition systems in the world on iPhones, and they try to measure they try to take pictures of your face from various angles under different lighting conditions. Even sometimes where you are having a beard, just to make sure that the right person is getting access to the right smartphone. So yeah, I think if you if you just look at smartphones, we've moved on from passwords, to fingerprints, to facial recognition.

Absolutely, and that's a good example of using biometrics because your phone the more with time yes as we're getting more technology in into our phones. Our phones are becoming really valid information stored in our phones are becoming really valuable. Yes, your bank. You might have an app for your bank, your financial other financial accounts, etc. As well as your other I don't know personal diaries and notes.

shopping accounts, wallets, banks, your I mean, there are many other apps that we use. travel for which you would have certain cards linked to so you don't want the phone to land in someone's hand and then they ordering something on your behalf or buying a ticket on your behalf. Or using your identity and then use

and yeah, all of this information can be used to get your identity on user for later for other malicious purposes. So the access to your phone is it has become more and more important over time and that's why in the very early days, there was no concept of you know protection of your phone. But then slowly it came with pin numbers and other you know password related ways to to protect it and then the more and more it became a privacy situation and the phone belongs sorry, blog to just one person before. You know, there were times when a few people you know, among friends or family would use one mobile phone as well. But nowadays mobile phone is just you know, attached to this one person. And, you know, using that biometrics, you can you can achieve that level of privacy and because it's quite serious amount of information. You need that kind of that level of certainty of that level of protection. And that's why biometrics has gone really well with the protection of phone.

Yeah, And I mean in phone. And now even in laptops, you have a fingerprint scanner, so you can actually unlock your laptop with the fingerprint and now they also have the same technology of facial recognition. So you can actually unlock your laptop using facial recognition. Most of the Microsoft laptops they now have this option I'm not sure what the iOS options but sorry, the Mac OS options, but on Windows laptops you do have an option where you can unlock your laptop using the facial recognition apart from your fingerprint. So I think those are the two main things that we are most comfortable with. I mean even if you if you look at facial recognition, when you look at your face, you have so many things on your face you have your eyes, you have your nose, you have your mouth, and you have your cheeks you have your hairs on your on your on your head. So there are a lot of other things that can be used as a biological marker. And sometimes what people do is they look at the retina of your in your eyes to actually identify the identity of a person. And that's of course in I'm guessing that's used in more secure sites rather than on a day to day basis in your laptop or in your mobile phone. So those are at a very , use at a very secured site. Then you have this DNA and you have your blood that's inside your body and when is it actually use so you might have heard about loads of these crimes that happen. And then there is investigations happening about who committed the crime, or there might be a rape that has happened and no one is able to identify what of who has done the rape or identify who's the biological father of the child. And you want to quickly identify who the person is there are biological markers. And those biological markers are used to identify who the culprit was. So they collect the biometrics from a lot of criminals and they put into it into a database. And same with a lot of people and they put it in the hospital database. And what's done is that in case a crime is conducted, they collect the DNA from the samples, and they try to match it with the database that they already have to see if it is the crime is committed by a known criminal or if it's an unknown criminal, they can then see if there is a pattern of crimes done by the unknown criminals. I mean, we've seen a lot of movies, but I'm sure that this happens. In reality, because you hear about so many cases being won on the biological markers. There are cases that have been reversed because there have been new evidence based on the DNA from the samples collected that have overturned old rulings. And sometimes a criminal who's not behind the bars has been put behind bars. And sometimes a person who's been proven innocent has actually been found guilty. So those things have happened. And in case of biological fathers sometimes we are not sure who the biological father is. So DNA again comes into picture. And we all have different blood types. So it's very easy to take a blood like a break. Take a break from your finger and take a small amount of blood and using that blood you can identify who you are the blood types, the many of the things, there was a whole company that was created Theranos that ultimately died. And the whole idea of the of that company was to provide you the biological body. I mean, all the all the Biological Indicators, just using a single or few drops of blood from your fingertip. And I mean, of course, it's not related to biometrics, but it's some kind of measurements using your blood. So yeah I mean, those are some of the cases where you can use your biological markers for solving certain things access, crime solving, finding a biological father, etc. And there are other ways in which we can use the biological markers. Sometimes the way we walk, the way we type. Not everyone uses all their fingers for typing. Some people use just few fingers. So by the way we type we can identify who the person is. Now remember biological markers have to be biological, it cannot be external. So it could be voice as well. So there are now a lot of software's that, try to recognize your voice and see if it's you who's speaking, but voice recognition can be easily faked. Because what can happen is that you can record the voice and you can use certain words and you can use that in a conversation. So a lot of AI models are now being created. If you have seen the I think the most recent Star Wars film, there was a character who had already passed away and they used AI to not AI but they use special effects to create the person and they use some of the audio from the person's films, to regenerate the audio for the new film. It's crazy what you can do actually, with technology.

Yeah, absolutely. And this is also another thing to be mindful of, you know, while being unaware how many how much information you're kind of giving away throughout the internet, one of the interesting ways, ways to sort of you know as you as you mentioned, Amit voice can be easily recreated. So it's not very secure, you know, to secure your phone, but even fingerprints, you're thinking that okay, fingerprints is just by yourself. But while you're sleeping. You're someone who is close to you could just put your finger next on the fingerprint scanner on your phone and can have that open.

or you get kidnapped and or someone tries to overpower you. They use your thumb to unlock your phone. And they just run away with it.

Yeah, that's there's so many so many interesting ways this can happen. And another way is another way to sort of, you know, counter this, this problem with fingerprint you could have facial recognition, and you can set up so that your eyes are always have to be used, our eyes have to be always open. Some, then there's still other ways where they can, someone can print a picture of you. But then I think in latest iPhone models they can identify whether it's a 2d image or a but it then it could also be more clever and

3d print, 3d print

Not Necessarily 3D Print.would have it picture printed so that you desire you edit it in a way that once you put it, attach it to your own face. It would look like it's the other person's face and then

The masks right people wearing masks so that mask is actually what it's just what you described.

Yeah, certainly. So there are various ways but these are some of the fun ways hopefully, you know, not a lot of people are going through this this length to get access to your phone. But then there are other ways that we should be aware of how we're giving out our information. Like for example there you know, for example, we are, you know, uploading our voices to YouTube and other podcast, streaming places. So our voices are very much out there. But at the same time, I remember this I was working in a company where they had to enter the premises they had a fingerprint scanner, and a few of the tech guys they actually denied to give their fingerprint information to the company because they were, you know, securing that information because they knows that you know if for whatever reason it was a startup company. If that information is somehow stolen, they're going to be vulnerable because they can't really have and that's another thing about biological markers. You can't change your biological markers.

Until or unless you get into an accident. So suppose you have you lose the right light right limb, or your face gets burned or your hands get burned, your biological markers do change. So that's

In a regular scenario. So you can't change it either. So once if it somehow you know gets related or somehow gets wrongly marked, you have to you know, will probably be harassed quite a bit because you know, authorities will think you're someone else because some you know, an imposter probably used your you know, biological mark in a malicious way. So it's important to be aware that these are information about yourselves that you can't change easily, are out there and people can be using it. I'm not saying live a very paranoid life. have always been super a lot of how you know it's just it's just about some level of awareness like you know, you're not It's not like you're always having to work gloves or not touching, you know, a glass or anything else so your fingerprints can't be stolen. But, you know, if you are in a particular premise, you know, based on the context where you are, you might want to be a little bit secure on that one day where you can think that this might be a risky situation or some shady something, you know, if you if that situation presents itself as you, you know, go on around with your life. So, yeah, it's just it's just being aware it I'm not saying that, you know, it's an everyday scenario where you have to be on full alert all the time. That would be a quite a stressful way to live your life, but it's still also good to know the things that can happen.

That's definitely true, because, I mean, we are now giving these information for free so we give some…..Our passwords are actually stored on servers which are not on our machines. They are somewhere remote. So people have our passwords. Companies like Amazon, Google, they have our passwords, Microsoft, they have our passwords. Now on top of that, I whenever I scan the fingerprints I mean I'm not sure whether it's stored on my laptop locally, or whether it's communicated so stored somewhere on the internet. I'm guessing it's low.

Yeah, if Samsung is telling the truth, which they should. I don't know about iPhone, but in Samsung phones, as they say the fingerprint information is only stored locally on your phone.

Yeah. so and so. So yes, so it's fingerprint phone. So you suppose you buy a new iPhone your fingerprints are not transferred your data is transferred, but not your biometrics. So you'll have to scan the phone again, with your fingerprint, your facial recognition, etc. So that you can try to lock your phone again with your biometrics. So I think that's again important to understand. But the government's government, government authorities like say the passport, so a lot of the passports now come with chip, and those chip have your biometric data. And when they scan the by the passport at the gates at the security gates, or at the immigration they can quickly tell whether this person is who he is, or she or whether there is impersonation of the person. So those biometrics are now with the government and those are actually stayed in a day. They're in a database which is owned by the government. So you have willingly given your biometrics to a government authority. Now what if the government authority gets hacked, your biometrics get leaked. So most of the other biometric say your phone if it gets lost, fine, someone can fake it. We gave some examples. So someone might read steal, right to steal the biometrics using that way. But if a government website gets hacked, or say your medical records, your medical records are very, very important and they are maintained with highest of security. But what if Amazon, Google Facebook, they now start getting access to some of the data, not everything, and they could then create a pattern and based on that pattern, they can identify who the person is. So those information is really valuable. And we have to be very careful. So how governments use our data, the biometrics and how companies say the medical companies, hospitals, etc. Use our biological data and store it because anything can happen with this data, and people can then easily impersonate you. And it's very important to safeguard these data.

Yeah, absolutely. And so you know, we talked about all different kinds of biological markers there are, I mean, you know, we talked about all different types there could be, you know, what we talked about, you know, some of the most popular or most used ones, there could be many other ones as well, but the most popular ones are the ones that you will come across usually. So, there are different ways. Now, let's, let's talk about, you know, how these information are being used technically in the back end. So, you know, they as we seen, like, you know, your phone keeps the fingerprint in your fingerprint in the phone. So, how, how are you actually getting validated? So basically, you know, the validation whether it's your fingerprint or not, that decision happens, or that validation happens in your phone. And then that the result or output is encrypted and then sent over the Internet. And then the third party like your bank, gets that information that yeah, this is this is who we think it is. And then it gives you access to your…

I think, that encrypted part I'm not sure how it said, but say, say for example, it's a banking app. Say, I'm using HSBC app and I I tried to first log in with my username and password. So those are things that clearly identify me, in case I lose my password and someone else uses it, then it's my fault and I will not be able to access but in order to deal with more extra security two factor authentication is added. So I have to add a username and the password and token from someplace like a Google Authenticator or some OTP, sent over SMS, etc. So that's a two factor authentication now on top of that, so now I have to enter a username I have to enter a password I have to enter OTP or a token. Now, if I don't want to use all of that, I can just use my biological marker to establish that this is me. In order for me to do that, I have to first go through the whole process of entering the username, password, and then entering the two factor authentication code over OTP or token, and then I add my fingerprint as an additional security so on top of the two factor authentication, I have another factor which is biometric. Now add my fingerprints the fingerprints are actually stored on the phone. And they when you store your fingerprints, they also ask so I use a OnePlus Ten pro nine pro device. And my device asks whether anyone else stores their fingerprints or uses this device using their fingerprints. So normally, if you say yes, then it means that the fingerprints are stored and used only by you. But in case say for example, you have a spouse, and you decided that okay, you want to give her access or him access to your phone and you decide to store their biometrics on your phone. Now, their biometrics are also stored and there are different fingerprints. So now for some reason, if something happens, they get a lock certain apps, which you thought is secured by your fingerprint, which is actually secured by their fingerprints as well because that's part of the database. So remember, whenever we store fingerprints in the mobile phone, it's not just one fingerprint, you can add multiple fingers, you can add your index finger, ring finger, your thumb, etc. So whichever finger is convenient, if you add one finger, it's fine, but if you add multiple fingers, then any one finger can be used to open that because what happens when you add a fingerprint as part of authentication in the banking app is it validates against the fingerprint that's already there? In the on the phone, and if it matches, then it means it's a person who's using the phone who may have already authenticated using the username, password. And two factor authentication token. So yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, well, you will experience in your phones you probably already have a bit of repetitive information but if you change your say for example, you have your phone set up you have your four fingerprints set up with your forefinger. So now if you want to give your access to your phone to your spouse, and then you add their finger print, replace one of the four that you already had, then all of your other all of the apps will ask again to revalidate that this is who you say,

yeah, yeah. If you added after, adding the fingerprints, yes.

Yeah, yeah. So they will say oh, the fingerprint information has changed. So you got to re register and we sort of reestablish that. Okay. The banking app should open with your biometrics. So yeah, that's for additional security. So that's why I think on this front, the security part is actually quite, quite advanced and quite reliable. Obviously, there are ways still and malicious people will still look for otherwise continuously, but this is I find it. Well, I mean, two factor authorization is probably the best secured way of protecting your information but apart from that, a very quick solution. You don't have to press four digit passwords or longer. With your fingerprint or facial recognition, you can have quick access, and while still being quite secured.

Yeah, I think the convenience part is what impresses me because I actually don't remember the password for my laptop now, because I keep using my fingerprint.

Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I mean, these biometric technologies have made our lives a lot easier than before. Not just the aspect of opening your phone picker or settling into various apps quicker, but also when you are travelling and your passport identification nowadays. You know, with machine readable passports you're quickly having a fingerprint scan, photos taken and automate automatically your verified and letting you know being let into the country or department, country etc. So these are just two ways but there are many other ways. It has made our lives easier to be able to identify ourselves quickly to the authorities and to other third party businesses, etc. So yeah, is a is a good positive technology. And secures us more so. But again, with any technology, there are vulnerabilities so it's just a matter of being aware of how it's being used and where you are giving out the information without unsuspectingly rather, so yeah. encourage the audience to be aware of it. But also, you know, keep being in tune with the technology and check out what new biometrics are coming into play becoming more popular and it's something that is making our lives easier and hopefully in the future it will keep making our lives easier and you know, security is such an important access to information and identification is so important and it's Biometrics is making it possible to attach your information with your biological self that will become more and more important in coming decades.

I think rather than carrying a piece of identity if you just go somewhere and they can verify just with who you are by taking a sample of blood DNA fingerprint or retina scan, whatever facial recognition, then it just it just makes life easier. And I think that's the reason why biometrics have become now so popular because of the convenience. We have so many devices. We have so many apps. We have so many things in our lives. We cannot keep remembering passwords for everything. So biometrics are there to help us to make our lives easier plus also at the borders at when you're travelling or anywhere else where there is a high security risk, then yes, bio biometrics are quite useful.

Absolutely. And to reach to do a science fiction level sort of future where things are like you know, going smoothly and like in like, click of law even click on the button happens right now. Even before you know everything's happening in that could happen if all the related involved party knows who everyone is in and as soon as that can be achieved for example, you think you know these new Amazon stores are state of the art you know, you don't have to, you know, you can just pick up their stuff and leave. But there are something behind it. You have to before you go to the store, you have to register yourself you probably have to download an app and you have to say that this is who I am. This is my payment information and all of that. So what if there was you know, all different companies talking to each other having the necessary information required to identify each of them like they're not It's not like you just need to be identified. You also want to identify which businesses are you're interacting with and then it could be in your whole life could be that much automated, then you go and do you don't have to pay physically pay or anywhere because everyone knows every business knows who you are. And they can just charge your account directly. So yeah, basically do two if once we have that level of biometric identification implemented everywhere in say, for example, in a model city, then you should be able to live a life where you don't have to identify yourself manually or have made any efforts to identify yourself all related authorities and to be honest as is talked about it, it sounds quite dangerous to me and no one everyone all private companies and government should Know who I am every second but what you can achieve is the convenience of future science fiction level. Convenience you just get up to you know, take a taxi or not or buy whatever, you just pick up whatever you like, and everything is automatically updated in your bank account in the background. So yeah, it could it could be quite powerful, if used, you know, coherently and ethically I suppose.

Now, I think you raise a very important point like you go anywhere, and you can just pick up stuff and yeah, things will work. One of the interesting things while you're talking about is China. So China actually uses facial recognition software to identify people who break traffic rules, especially pedestrians and they take photos of people at the they can they can shame they have like a shaming wall or something where they put pictures of people who have broken the traffic rules to let everyone know that okay, these are the people who have broken the rules. So that's one aspect. The I think the other aspect, which is I think quite interesting is currently we have to carry a form of identity wherever we go, be it a passport with the visa be it a Driving Licence, etc. If everything could be dragged to who we are and how we are on look or say sound, then we actually don't have to carry any form of identity. Just by using a scanner. Everyone can see who we are and all the data they can track so that I don't have to carry my driving licence. I don't have to carry my passport. I don't have to carry my visa. I don't have to carry my credit card or debit card. Everything is charged based on who I am.

Absolutely, yeah, I mean, to be honest, as you know, the China example is ethically quite controversial.

It is. But it's a communist rule. So that's what that form of government does. I mean, there is I'm not criticising the government itself. But what I'm saying is that they use this technology on their citizens, and they are capturing their faces on a regular basis. So your data is actually being captured on a regular basis by Chinese authorities. If you ever visit China.

Yeah, it's important piece of information to be aware of. So yeah, I think, you know, this was a good conversation Amit. You know, as I spoke, I, you know, kind of opened my eyes as well as you know, learned quite a bit from you. Thank you very much for telling me about all of this. Hopefully, our audience enjoyed this conversation. And if you guys would like to have any feedback on this or any of the other episodes, do reach out to us or if you guys want to be you know, if you want to come to our podcast as a guest don't I mean, we definitely do want more sort of audience interaction. So if you guys feel like you would be, you know, if you're if you have a particular expertise, they would like to talk about tech related, then please reach out to us. We'd love to have a chat with you guys and see where that takes us. So yeah, thank you very much, guys for listening. And hope to see you guys again next week.

Thank you so much Rinat for again, a good conversation on a very important topic. Thanks, everyone, and see you next week.