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Playbook of a High-Performing Marketing Leader - Thao Ngo
Episode 29 • 22nd April 2024 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
00:00:00 00:51:47

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I think marketing is one of the toughest functions to lead successfully.

Your job is part art, part science. You need to hire, coach, and retain talent with a huge range of skillsets that you may even not be master of yourself—from the creative to the analytical to the technical.

And then your job is to simultaneously create demand, capture demand, help sales convert that demand, help customer success retain and expand that demand...your job is never done.

Today we chat with one of my favourite marketing leaders, Thao Ngo. We'll explore her unconventional marketing strategy and also her leadership playbook—how she grows her team and creates an environment where people do their best work.

Thanks to Our Sponsor

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You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button.

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About Today's Guest

Thao Ngo is a senior B2B marketing leader with 20+ years of experience in building world-class teams, generating sales-ready leads, and creating brand awareness for tech companies of various sizes. She's led marketing teams at Elastic Path, Vision Critical, and SensorUp, and is currently SVP of Marketing at Uptempo.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/thaongo/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:09] - What makes a great marketer?
  • [02:40] - Evolution of marketing skills
  • [04:48] - How to use data
  • [06:25] - Marketing leadership and operating rhythms
  • [09:30] - Trust and psychological safety
  • [12:49] - Coaching and feedback
  • [24:32] - First hires on a marketing team
  • [25:43] - Division of labour between CMO and VP
  • [28:05] - What keeps Thao up at night
  • [29:47] - The marketing planning process
  • [36:24] - Influencer / community marketing programs
  • [47:13] - A day in the life of Thao

Resource Links

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Transcripts

Justin Norris:

every part of the business has its challenges.

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:

But if you ask me, marketing is one of the

toughest functions to lead successfully.

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:

It requires a little bit

of everything from you.

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:

Your job is part art and part science.

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:

You need to hire coach and retain talent

with this huge range of skill sets that

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:

you may not even be a master of yourself.

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:

and then your job is to simultaneously

create demand, capture demand, help

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sales, convert that demand, help customers

success, retain and expand that demand.

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So your job is basically never done.

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So today I really wanted to go deep

into the hidden side of marketing

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leadership, the tips and the tricks,

the trials and the tribulations.

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And so brought to you by the letter T we

have one of my favorite marketing leaders.

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Tao Ngo SVP of marketing at UpTempo.

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Tao, welcome to the show.

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Thao Ngo: Thank you for having me.

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I'm happy to be

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the T today

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And to spill the tea.

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Justin Norris: let's start doing that.

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you've been a marketer for over 20

years per your LinkedIn profile.

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What makes a great marketer?

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Simple question to start with.

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Thao Ngo: Yeah.

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And I would also keep

the answer pretty simple.

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It's the hunger to learn

marketing changes all the time.

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Best practices, techniques,

tools, all that kind of stuff.

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It changes all the time.

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It's not like you go to

school once and you're done.

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So the ability and the hunger

to learn is really important.

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As you enter new industries, understand

new products, new ICP's, et cetera.

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So I think that's really

important for marketers.

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The other thing, especially in tech, is

the ability to embrace change because it's

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having the mental fortitude to survive the

ups and downs of the industry and also A

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lot of changes that happen in marketing.

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You need to embrace that change

in order to be successful.

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And that's what makes it exciting, really.

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And the third thing I think is

important for being a successful

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marketer is the ability to listen.

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So listening to the market, listening

to your boss, listening to customers,

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listening to influencers, just being

that sponge and understanding why they're

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doing things, how they're doing things.

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I think the ability to listen has

carried me so far in my career.

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So I think it's just simply that

ability to learn, embrace change.

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And listen really well.

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Justin Norris: I love that and there

is an interesting kind of left brain,

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right brain dichotomy that I alluded

to a moment ago when we think about the

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sort of learning that you described,

must every marketer be both data literate

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and, curious about people and about

human psychology, or is it okay to

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be more grounded in one or the other?

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Thao Ngo: I think if you're going to

be a marketing leader, you have to have

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both because certainly as a individual

contributor jobs, there is definitely

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a slant depending on your role.

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But as a leader, I think you do

need to have an understanding of

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data and appreciation for data,

as well as being creative and

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understanding how human beings work.

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And this is really why.

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I picked marketing because it was the

perfect mix of data and creativity

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because I had considered being a writer,

being an accountant, and I picked

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marketing because I could flex the

creative side of my brain and come up

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with ideas, but also be able to look at

the numbers and be data driven as well.

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So I think both is really

critical as a leader.

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Justin Norris: So marketers are

just some strange hybrid of a failed

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writer and a frustrated accountant.

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Is that what we're saying?

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Thao Ngo: Well, look out

for a screenplay later.

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I have lots of stories to share.

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Justin Norris: Has this profile changed

like over the course of your career?

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I would assume that 20 years

ago, I data was still very

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important, but has it changed?

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increased in prominence within the

kind of overall marketing skill pool?

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Thao Ngo: Absolutely.

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there's a lot of vanity KPIs we

focused on way back when, and today

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it's much more revenue focused

and being business savvy as well.

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So it's not in the realm

of sales or finance.

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Marketing leaders have to understand

their numbers and understand how they're

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impacting business goals and understanding

the marketing investment and where to

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make smart investments there as well.

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So it's not like a black hole.

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So I definitely think there's more

data, more need to be data driven

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now than 20 years ago, for sure.

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I think that's a good thing.

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Justin Norris: you know, as you see

some people sometimes, and sometimes I

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feel this way myself that we've almost

overcorrected in the direction of data

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from, the old joke about marketing

being the arts and crafts department

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to know we've got to be data driven.

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We've got to, tie everything to

data, be able to quantify and

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measure everything we're doing.

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that can straitjacket you as a marketer.

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Sometimes have you ever felt that,

or do you view that as a problem?

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Thao Ngo: Absolutely.

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I only care about data if

it helps me make a decision.

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So there's nice to have data that

you can have, but if it's not

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actually going to help me make a

decision, then I don't care about it.

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Somebody on the team should care

about it, but I don't care about it.

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So I'll get a 20 slide deck from somebody

giving the analysis on the program.

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I'm like, okay, I only care.

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I spent this much amount of money.

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What did I get back?

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who's paying attention?

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Thank you.

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And it's nice that you have all these

slides, but I only care about that.

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Give me that one slide, right?

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So, for me specifically, I definitely keep

it high level in a lot of things on what

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decisions I'm going to make, because we're

all stretched for time and I don't want

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my team to go down rabbit holes, spending

hours looking at every single click, etc.

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if I'm not going to do anything with

that data, it's a waste of time.

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And we move.

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very quickly on this team.

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So we don't have a minute

to spare on useless data.

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So there's definitely some people

that would probably dig in a lot more.

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I only care about if it makes a difference

to how I'm going to spend my money

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and time and projects and priorities.

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Justin Norris: So let's walk in

a little bit into this marketing

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leadership role that you've held

for a number of years now across a

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number of different organizations.

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So this isn't your first

rodeo here at uptempo.

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How do you think about the

role of the marketing leader?

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what is job number one for you?

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Thao Ngo: Job number one is to

help the company reach the goals.

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So whatever the business goals might be,

I need to make sure that we get there,

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but that the journey is enjoyable.

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That's really important to me.

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And when I say the journey is

enjoyable, I need to have fun.

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My team members need to have fun.

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The customers need to have fun.

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Cause if you're only, turning out

stuff and you're not enjoying it,

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I'd rather just be a writer then.

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Go out, write my novel, write my

screenplay, but it's important for me to

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really enjoy the work and enjoy what I'm

doing and making sure that people for

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sure, learn and progress and perform,

but people have a good time doing it.

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That's really important to me.

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That will obviously change from leader

to leader, but this is why I can put

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in so many hours and I can look at

the details and I care so much and

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people care so much because they really

care about what they're doing and

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they really enjoy doing it as well.

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So for me, the journey is

as important as the results.

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Justin Norris: it's interesting that

you mentioned fun because I think

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not many people would have had that

on the tip of their tongue in the

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sense of what is the most important

function as a marketing leader.

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But it's something that

I really resonate with.

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And I mean, if I'm not having

fun at work, it's very miserable.

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And I'm sure most people

feel that to some degree.

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what is the operating rhythm,

if you like, of your team?

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Thao Ngo: we definitely have

processes for everything.

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So like any other team, we have

campaigns, camping, briefs, kickoffs

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project management tools, standard

meetings, all that kind of stuff.

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But every single meeting we have

and every Slack message we have,

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there is a playful element to it.

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And there's an ease at which we're

conducting our meetings as well.

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And I love going into meeting,

especially with my team.

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And we can just.

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Share and tease each other.

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, I'm being honest, and they know

I'm not being rude or anything like

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that, but I'm just being authentic

to myself, and we can have an honest

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conversation about the copy, etc.

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So everything you do or say and how

you conduct yourself in meetings,

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it has to be Kind of enjoyable.

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Otherwise, it's such a slog.

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So I think if you were to peer

into our Slack channels, you

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would see that all over the place.

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And if you were to look at the edits that

I provide and the comments I provide, you

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would also see that there's a lightness

and there's a playfulness as well to it.

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So that people get a laugh

out of the day as well.

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Justin Norris: Certainly makes it

easier to have the tough conversations

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and, there's not always a hundred

percent agreement on everything.

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at least not in the marketing

teams I've worked in.

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I think where it comes back to as well,

you didn't use this word, but to me.

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It speaks to trust, right?

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Because when you trust each other, you can

have a bit of fun at each other's expense.

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Thao Ngo: Exactly.

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I think there was a book out

called Something About Radical

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Candor or something like that.

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I think some people misinterpreted

that and just began being

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very direct with people.

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But if you don't have that foundation of

trust, then it just becomes rude and mean.

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So that's the thing.

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You have to build that trust with somebody

and they know, where you're coming from.

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They know you just want great work and

they know your personality as well.

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So there's no offense taken as well.

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So I think that's really

important to be able to be honest

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with them about their work.

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And when you make your own

mistakes, I think that's really

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important for leaders to also

recognize when they've made an oops.

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And so people feel

comfortable with it as well.

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I remember there was

this one customer summit.

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I accidentally moved this sign for the

shuttle to the wrong floor, and the

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customers got confused where to go.

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And our field manager at the time at the

company was like, Well, what happened?

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How did it get moved from the right spot?

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I'm like, Who did this terrible mistake?

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This is outrageous.

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And everybody knew it was me.

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I knew it was me, but I'm like, Oh, well.

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It is what it is.

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So to be able to admit your

mistakes also helps as well.

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But yeah, it's all about trust.

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They know I'm going to admit when I've

made a mistake as well, and so it's

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easier for them to also do the same.

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Justin Norris: You know, I was a

consultant before my current job.

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And I saw inside a lot

of different companies.

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And, you know, I chat with people

even now, from different companies.

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How things are going with them,

talking about their careers.

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There are so many toxic environments

out there, where it's just ruled

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by fear and mistrust and politics.

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It can be very cutthroat it's one of the

reasons why, like, I'm looking at a job,

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really look at Glassdoor very carefully.

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it certainly does give you an indication.

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Of things like that.

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This is a really priceless trait, I think,

where you can create an environment for

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people to have fun in where they feel a

certain sense of psychological safety.

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Have you found that as useful as a sort of

almost like recruiting tool or something

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that kind of draw people into the team?

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Thao Ngo: Well, I'm very honest when

I interview candidates or if I'm

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being interviewed for a job as well.

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So if I'm going for a job, I want them

to really understand the environment

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that I can thrive in and my personality.

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And That I'm very outspoken and I

don't like rules and if they have

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a problem with that They'll see

it right away in the interview.

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They'll get my vibe.

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So They know what they've signed

up to if I've come on board, right?

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so if there are companies that

are very political and very

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Uptight or rigid about rules.

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There's no way they would ever hire

me not enough Second, and it's the

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same way when I hire people, too, I

want them to come on board and not

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be order takers, but be marketers.

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Every single person on

the team is a marketer.

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If you're a designer it doesn't matter

if you're a writer, you are a marketer.

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And I'm expecting you to step up and

have an opinion and care about things.

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And while we have fun and we can

be playful, et cetera, et cetera.

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I can also be very direct with my

feedback because I think that's

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really important, getting frequent,

direct, and timely feedback.

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I'm all about that.

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My team definitely knows I don't

hold back and I share the feedback

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freely, but they're used to it.

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And so I want people to feel comfortable

with that before they come on board.

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I'm usually the last one that candidates

speak to in the job process, because I'm

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the one that's trying to scare them away.

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It's like, this is.

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what it's like here.

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We move really fast.

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There's lots of change.

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We have a massive workload.

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We have high standards.

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I get a lot of feedback.

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I'm a very direct person.

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So if you don't like it, it might

not be the right place for you.

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So I'm the scary cop at the end it's been

very helpful for people to understand

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if this is the environment for them.

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Stalker.

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Justin Norris: as part of, you know,

just getting my head into the plan for

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this discussion and how it would go.

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And I know it's creepy, but one of

the themes that emerged from those

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recommendations of which you have

quite a few, and many of them from

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your former team members, people that

you coached, and there was really

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this theme about you as a leader.

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You are paying them very well, or

you're doing something well, either way.

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Thao Ngo: Oh

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Justin Norris: just teasing.

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but yeah they're they were really.

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Really just effusive about how you help

develop them, your leadership style.

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So you're doing something good there.

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What's your philosophy for

coaching developing team members?

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How do you approach this challenge?

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Cause it is a very challenging thing

to do to help develop somebody.

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Thao Ngo: It is challenging.

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I think you have to

meet me halfway, right?

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You have to want it as well.

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It's not like sitting back.

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Oh, coach me to the next level.

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Like you need to do part of the work too.

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So, for me, I always think about their

future, Where do they want to go?

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Because not everybody wants to

be a marketing leader, right?

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Not everybody wants to take

all these rungs up the ladder.

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So it depends where they want to go.

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And keeping that in mind

that's how I coach them, right?

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So if they do want to be managing a

team in the future, I try to give them

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advice and real experience in that area.

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And if they just want to be the best

that they can be as an individual

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contributor, we work on that as well.

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But I always give real examples for every

piece of feedback I have, because one of

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the annoying things I had in my career

where people would say, just don't think

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you're ready yet, or you need to do this.

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I'm like, what do you mean?

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tell me the things I need you

to do, and I'll do it, right?

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So I never like that.

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that.

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feedback was so vague and

there was never real examples.

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So in addition to giving

concrete feedback, I always

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do a lot of workshops as well.

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So I like to give my team

workshops to solve real problems.

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So we just did a workshop on

working faster because one of

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the themes was managing workload.

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So I did that this week and

I gave a workshop with them

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about managing communications.

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There's lots of slack, lots of email.

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Lots of everything.

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How do you manage all that?

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And also workshop on how to

better review and edit things.

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So there's not too much back and forth

and we can get things done faster.

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So I'm a big fan of real

hands on workshops to help

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them overcome these things.

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And also examples, I'll send examples

of For example, if I'm listening

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to a TED Talk and somebody's talked

about how women can insert themselves

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in meetings or whatever, I'll send

that to the women on my team, etc.

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Or if I see an example of somebody

managing a meeting really confidently,

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I'll share that with them as well.

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So I'm always thinking about things that

each person cares about in their path and

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real meaty things to help them get there.

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And I think that's what they appreciate

because I could just do the work.

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But I'm thinking about how

do I get the them to the next

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step that they want to get to.

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They don't have to stay here forever.

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They could go on to another company

and be leaders and successful.

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And that would be fantastic.

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And I've done that.

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I built so many leaders that have

worked for me and that makes me

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incredibly happy and fulfilled.

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So they know I care about their next

steps and not just about how they're

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doing at the moment for this company

in this role, and I think that matters.

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Justin Norris: When we talk about

your team, what size of team

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are we talking about right now?

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Just to give people that context.

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Thao Ngo: I think it's a

teeny tiny team of like eight.

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including us.

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So we're living the do more with less.

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We're living and breathing it every day,

So it's always a challenge about what are

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we gonna drop, what are we going to be

fine to let go out the door, et cetera.

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So it is a challenge about managing

workload and expectations for sure.

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Justin Norris: Let's say you have

a marketer that is underperforming.

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Maybe you feel it's missing, key

skills or certain competencies

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or certain mindsets or attitudes.

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Like, how do you approach that situation?

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Because that is a difficult

one, I think, for many leaders.

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Thao Ngo: Yeah, well, if it's skills,

that's so much easier because then

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we'll just get them skilled up, right?

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It's like you have gaps in here and here.

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Let's get you a book.

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Let's get you a course.

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Let's get you trained up on a weekly basis

and then we can see where you're going

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or you can shadow me or you can see how

sometimes I've hired a consultant and

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they will shadow that consultant as well

just to get their skills up to snuff.

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So skills is easy.

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Attitude is harder.

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So if there's an attitude like same thing,

what I've said about order takers, right?

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If they see themselves as I'll do my

job here and I'll just check off the

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task, I'm not interested in that,

There's accountability to your project.

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And if you don't want to understand

what this entire campaign is about, if

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you don't understand the goals of this

project and if you don't understand

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the messaging, Then that's a problem.

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So every person that's involved in

this project needs to understand that

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and needs to care about what happens.

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It's like, done my part, but

does so and so are they ready?

353

:

Or are they prepared?

354

:

Or I see a problem here.

355

:

I should bring it up.

356

:

I always liken it to, cause I

went to business school and we did

357

:

group projects all the time, right?

358

:

You're just, together with four

people, six people, whatever, you

359

:

have to get a group project done.

360

:

And that's how I tell them

it's like a group project.

361

:

It's not like each person is

only doing this thing, but you're

362

:

responsible for delivering this

project and the success of it.

363

:

And you're all going

to get the same grade.

364

:

The prof is going to

give you the same grade.

365

:

So if you don't understand all the

components of it, it's a problem, right?

366

:

And if you don't understand.

367

:

That's also something we can fix and

we can sit down and we can explain it.

368

:

But if there's no hunger to learn, if

there's no hunger to improve the customer

369

:

experience and just do what we've

always done, then that is a problem.

370

:

And it's funny because I also did a

workshop this week for the women of

371

:

Uptempo on how to have hard conversations.

372

:

Because that's also an

area that I thrive in.

373

:

I don't have a problem having

hard conversations with people.

374

:

I look forward to it because I just

need to get stuff done, if someone

375

:

is underperforming they will know

immediately and they will know for

376

:

every single instance that it happens

and the expectations that come with

377

:

that and what they're going to do.

378

:

And I always share my feedback

and I'll say, What do you think?

379

:

Do you think that's fair?

380

:

Let me know what you have on your mind.

381

:

And then you might understand, like,

maybe they're not in the right role,

382

:

or maybe they don't care about this, or

maybe they're having real challenges.

383

:

You've got to hear what

their side is as well.

384

:

But I think clear, timely feedback is

super important on improving somebody's

385

:

performance attitude wise or skill wise.

386

:

Justin Norris: There's kind of

the philosophy of higher, slow,

387

:

fire, fast, a common expression.

388

:

What do you think about that?

389

:

Thao Ngo: I understand it theory.

390

:

I totally get the fire

fast thing in theory.

391

:

I get it.

392

:

It's much harder to do because people

are human beings and you want to give

393

:

people a chance to step up to the plate.

394

:

and improve.

395

:

So it really depends on their

attitude and if they want to improve.

396

:

So I tend to actually fire not

as fast to give people that

397

:

time and space to improve.

398

:

and it's worked, sometimes people

just need that leeway where they

399

:

can just get some stuff under

them before they can get going.

400

:

I want to exhaust every single avenue

possible before I call time of death.

401

:

I want to give them every single

chance to succeed, tools, reading

402

:

examples, talk to other people, working

together, more meetings, feedback.

403

:

I want to give them opportunity

because it is their livelihood.

404

:

It has huge impact on their life

and their self esteem and people

405

:

they might be supporting and people

connected with them, et cetera.

406

:

Justin Norris: think it also has a big

impact if they are getting that feedback

407

:

quickly and early and every single time

because quite often that doesn't happen.

408

:

you have these little things and maybe

as a leader, you're uncomfortable

409

:

or you don't want to invest

the time to give that feedback.

410

:

So it's kind of like a stone in

your shoe or something, and then

411

:

it just gets bigger and bigger.

412

:

And then people just get walloped

like at performance review time or.

413

:

Crushing surprise.

414

:

Like what?

415

:

Like, why didn't you say

416

:

anything sooner?

417

:

Thao Ngo: Blindsided because they

don't have the opportunity to change.

418

:

And I don't think that's fair.

419

:

And that's why I'm really famous for

saying, Hey, do you have five minutes?

420

:

if there's a meeting that's

gone sideways, and I don't, Like

421

:

something that has heard all slack.

422

:

I'm like, Hey, do you have five minutes?

423

:

And they don't like, you know, those

five minutes might not be enjoyable.

424

:

Might be terrible, but I can't let it go.

425

:

I need to tell you immediately

what I didn't like, why I didn't

426

:

like it, what we need to change.

427

:

So you have the opportunity to change it.

428

:

Justin Norris: But what I have noticed

and feedback is a big part of the

429

:

work culture where I am as well.

430

:

And so you really try to practice that

at bare minimum on a weekly basis.

431

:

When you normalize giving that

feedback often, it just becomes this

432

:

normal corrective, little nudges.

433

:

And that's way better than keeping

your cards close to your chest.

434

:

And then as you say, blindsided

performance for a few time

435

:

or just something explodes.

436

:

Thao Ngo: And there's big feedback

and there's little feedback, so

437

:

you also have to give people an idea

of when it's like, oh, this is just

438

:

like a minor thing and this is like

a problem and we need to talk about

439

:

it because I'm about to lose my mind.

440

:

And I do say that and then they're

like, oh, she said lose her mind.

441

:

That's a bad sign.

442

:

So I have said, for example,

You did an a plus job.

443

:

I had some minor suggestions

for future, but keep in mind,

444

:

this was a plus full stop.

445

:

So then they can understand, Oh my God.

446

:

Okay.

447

:

I feel good.

448

:

And these are just minor things, right.

449

:

Versus the more serious Feedback.

450

:

Justin Norris: So let's say

you're building your marketing

451

:

team from scratch today.

452

:

You know, you've got a

handful of draft picks here.

453

:

What roles would be your

first, second and third hires?

454

:

Thao Ngo: That's pretty easy.

455

:

No matter where you're at, the

executive team and board will

456

:

want accurate numbers immediately.

457

:

And they need to be done right.

458

:

So I need MOPS on first and they need

to be able to do campaign execution

459

:

and maybe manage the site as well.

460

:

So whenever there's a small team,

you're wearing multiple hats.

461

:

So MOPS first for sure, because

I can't spend my time doing that.

462

:

Secondly, product marketing for

sure, because we need to have the

463

:

right messages and understand the

market and understand how we're

464

:

going to market in order to have.

465

:

chance at succeeding, right?

466

:

And they will also double as writing

marketing content too, Two hands.

467

:

And then third is demand marketer.

468

:

We need somebody to run the programs,

run the ads, and also be able to write.

469

:

So those are the top three roles

that I will hire in that order because

470

:

it can outsource everything else.

471

:

I can outsource design, outsource

writing, outsource web dev,

472

:

outsource SEO, outsource field.

473

:

I can do all that.

474

:

Justin Norris: And right now you

are reporting to CMO, Jim Williams,

475

:

who another great marketer.

476

:

I've known him a little

bit from some of his

477

:

work in the past, some say,

478

:

maybe

479

:

you have a fun relationship with

him that you've alluded to how

480

:

do you divide responsibilities?

481

:

Cause you have kind of, in essence,

you're both, you know, marketing leaders.

482

:

It's not a huge marketing team.

483

:

How do you think about dividing

up the pie between you and Jim?

484

:

Thao Ngo: It is unusual

and it's not by design.

485

:

It was just that I got hired at Allocadia,

then we got acquired by Brand Maker

486

:

who was hiring Kim and then Hive9 came.

487

:

So these three companies came together

and then we're like, oh there's two of us.

488

:

Hey, hi.

489

:

So I, Formally report into

him, but I think we boss each

490

:

other around equal amounts.

491

:

I think we're pretty good that way

so he takes care of product marketing

492

:

That's really his background product

marketing sales development team as well

493

:

as marketing operations So he actually

takes those portfolios and then I take

494

:

demand content, customer marketing,

field marketing, and corporate comms.

495

:

So what people would think of

as traditional marketing, and

496

:

that's how we split it up.

497

:

But we speak regularly

at least twice a week.

498

:

And so we're in the loop on everything

that we're doing, but that's

499

:

basically how we divvy things up.

500

:

And there's a lot of work to do just.

501

:

Splitting that up.

502

:

Justin Norris: And so it's an effective

partnership, it sounds like, not that

503

:

you can necessarily say if it wasn't,

but it sounds like it sounds like it is.

504

:

Thao Ngo: For the moment, it

is an effective partnership.

505

:

Yes.

506

:

And that's I think really key in

terms of the environments and the

507

:

managers that I thrive under is just.

508

:

Let me do my thing.

509

:

That's really important to me.

510

:

I mean, we'll have our

debates, which is great.

511

:

You get the best ideas out

of them and, 1 percent of the

512

:

time he's right, which is fine.

513

:

But just in general,

just get out of my way.

514

:

Let me do my thing, And I think our

backgrounds in B2B marketing and we're

515

:

aligned on the kind of DNA that we want

on this marketing team and the kind of

516

:

marketing that impresses us as well.

517

:

So I think it's good

being aligned that way,

518

:

Justin Norris: What keeps you up at night?

519

:

professionally speaking,

what's your biggest, what do

520

:

your night terrors look like?

521

:

Thao Ngo: you know, so funny.

522

:

Cause I don't get a lot

of sleep to begin with.

523

:

Um, I don't know that I'm the kind

of person that worries like that

524

:

because, you know, when I am up,

it's because I'm finishing off work.

525

:

Because I love it so much.

526

:

I sound like such a nerd.

527

:

But I am up late doing a lot of

work because I love what I'm doing.

528

:

I love the projects and I

don't really worry as much.

529

:

the thing that's tricky

is, Results can take time.

530

:

So I know I'm doing the right things.

531

:

I know we're doing the right motions,

the right programs, and we're seeing

532

:

the qualitative feedback come in.

533

:

And it just takes time.

534

:

And I just need everybody just to

hold on because everybody wants

535

:

immediate results and any kind of

dip and people are freaking out.

536

:

And we'll just calm down.

537

:

I know this is the right thing.

538

:

So it's just like, anything.

539

:

If you're taking your health seriously

and you want to be healthier, well

540

:

you're gonna have to go to the gym, you

gotta sleep, you gotta eat the right

541

:

foods, and work out, and drink water,

and all of that takes time, right?

542

:

Everything that is worth

having Take some time.

543

:

So I wouldn't say it keeps me

up, but people just need to be a

544

:

little bit more patient and know

that we're doing the right thing.

545

:

And that's what matters doing the right

thing, doing the right programs and

546

:

not going for the quick fix because

everybody else is doing that way.

547

:

And I don't know that's

the right path to success.

548

:

Justin Norris: Yeah, and that's a

big topic that I want to dive into.

549

:

But first I want to maybe just

understand, you talk about, you know,

550

:

you know you're doing the right thing.

551

:

of programs and channels for the year.

552

:

How do you think about

that planning process?

553

:

I mean, that's up tempo is like

a marketing planning execution.

554

:

So offers is very much

555

:

in your company DNA.

556

:

What does that look like for you

at the beginning of the year?

557

:

You know, you just get a number

from finance or walk us through

558

:

what that process looks like.

559

:

Thao Ngo: I love planning

personally because it's the

560

:

part in your marketing career.

561

:

You're never really involved

with when you're junior, right?

562

:

You just get kind of told what to do.

563

:

I'm like, wow, I'm in charge now.

564

:

This is great.

565

:

You're like the holder

of your destiny, right?

566

:

So it's really always exciting to me.

567

:

And that's when the mix of

data and creative get together.

568

:

But we follow a standard

process and we're still not ICP.

569

:

So we're not enterprise, like the

complex, large marketing organizations

570

:

that use our software or that

follow our consulting, et cetera.

571

:

So we're still a small team, so

it's a little bit easier, but

572

:

essentially it's the same steps.

573

:

So everything comes from what the

business goals are, what are the

574

:

targets it's going to be the next

year, and then we get a rough.

575

:

Marketing budget number to kind

of work with as a scratch pad.

576

:

I will say, I was like, no we'll

start with that and say where we are.

577

:

And then we talk about, okay, what

are the marketing goals that actually

578

:

connect to those business goals?

579

:

Instead of the things that we want to

do, we want to make sure we're grounded

580

:

in things that matter to the company.

581

:

So we set that if that's a

conversation that I have with my

582

:

CMO, and then we talk about marketing

strategy and things that worked.

583

:

Last year, things that didn't

work, things that we know we have

584

:

to do, things that are a gap.

585

:

So we talk about the major initiatives

and priorities that we want to do in

586

:

order to meet the marketing goals.

587

:

And then we think about the large

campaigns that we want to run.

588

:

For each one of those goals that

ladder up to the marketing goals that

589

:

ladder up to the business goals, too.

590

:

And then we do high level

campaign planning with the team.

591

:

So we talk to them about business

targets the marketing goals.

592

:

Laddering up to that the strategy and

then the big campaign themes and then

593

:

we get to work with the team in terms of

fleshing that out a high level schedule by

594

:

month of when those programs will go live.

595

:

And then we do a.

596

:

Back and forth dance with

finance on the budget.

597

:

So we do have like a best guess top down.

598

:

And then we do bottoms up really

looking at the nitty gritty on what

599

:

that might take and then see where

the numbers fall out and shake out.

600

:

So then that's a negotiation with finance.

601

:

And if there's a major change that

budget thankfully, that also goes

602

:

Changes the targets that we have as well.

603

:

So we're not beholden to these massive

goals of our budgets are going to

604

:

be cut like a huge amount as well.

605

:

And then there's the socialization of it.

606

:

So, I mean, we're a smaller company, but

I've worked in bigger companies where you

607

:

really do have to just talk to everybody,

make sure they understand the marketing

608

:

strategy, the priorities, what we won't be

doing and how that impacts the business.

609

:

Their organization, and that's

a lot of face time as well.

610

:

So I usually do that with a lot of

leaders internally before we actually

611

:

unveil it to the rest of the company.

612

:

So I've already listened to them,

heard their concerns, shared.

613

:

Why we're doing it this way, et cetera.

614

:

And the way that we roll it out,

at least an uptempo in the company,

615

:

our sizes, we record a short video.

616

:

It's a 20 minute video between

myself and Jim that explains.

617

:

The goals and how we think

we're gonna achieve that.

618

:

And at the end, we

actually do a product demo.

619

:

So we open up the up temple tool

and show them the plan that we

620

:

have in the tool and the marketing

investment and the calendar as well.

621

:

So we drink our own champagne

internally, and we want everybody

622

:

in the company to understand.

623

:

This is how marketing

internally uses it as well.

624

:

And then we circulate that around

to everybody and they're free to ask

625

:

questions and comment, et cetera.

626

:

But it's always there, that recording

and the PowerPoint deck, and then

627

:

the plan and the uptempo tool.

628

:

And then it's executing the

campaigns, which I think is a lot

629

:

more straightforward in terms of

brief kickoff and project management.

630

:

of course, coming back and measuring

that inside the tool as well.

631

:

So, I think it is the same steps that

our customers should be taking a much

632

:

larger scale and much more complex,

of course, but that's how it goes.

633

:

And I really enjoy the whole process of

planning because half of it is scientific.

634

:

The other half of it is creative, right?

635

:

Justin Norris: And when you're building

that mix, there are Often certain

636

:

programs that are just always on,

like maybe like an SEM program, you

637

:

continually optimize and manage it.

638

:

And then you may have some campaigns that

are a bit more direct response, and then

639

:

you may have some campaigns that are more.

640

:

Let's call it demand

creation or brand awareness.

641

:

The terminology, can vary

depending on your preference.

642

:

How do you think about an

intelligent blend of things that

643

:

are, predictable all the way up to

like what you alluded to before?

644

:

We think this is going to yield

results down the line, but it's not

645

:

like an immediate put a dollar in, get

a buck 25 out, something like that.

646

:

Thao Ngo: Yes.

647

:

So we do have bread and butter

programs that have worked in the past.

648

:

So we just up the ante in terms of maybe

having more of them or making the topics

649

:

even more closely aligned to topics that

we care about or maybe selecting different

650

:

types of partners or customers to involve.

651

:

So I would say it is probably 50 50.

652

:

Which is definitely riskier than most.

653

:

So 50 percent are programs that

we know work and 50 percent

654

:

are, Hey, let's take a gamble.

655

:

Because, One of the things I'm

really good at is selling something.

656

:

So if I believe in a program and

I want it to happen, I'm really

657

:

good at getting people on board.

658

:

So that's what I love is like,

Hey, I think this will work.

659

:

Not only does it sound good and it's

creative and whatever, but these are the

660

:

real reasons why I think it would work.

661

:

And that's what's exciting.

662

:

Let's just change it up and

see where the chips lie.

663

:

Justin Norris: It's a good

transition to the subject.

664

:

I'm going to call it influencer marketing.

665

:

And I don't know if you think

of it that way, but one of the

666

:

reasons why we know each other

and why I think many people in the

667

:

ops community know you is through

some of the programs that you've run

668

:

with folks like Daryl Alfonso, or more

recently, I've actually been involved.

669

:

You've sponsored me.

670

:

Thank you.

671

:

to be involved in a really fun program.

672

:

We're, you know, we're giving

takes, you've got six different

673

:

marketing ops leaders giving takes

on different topics every month.

674

:

We're recording that the huddles

with Daryl, you know, have been

675

:

a huge success, at least in terms

of engagement with the community.

676

:

You've got like hundreds of people

coming to them at various points in time.

677

:

How did you get onto that train?

678

:

Where'd you get that idea from?

679

:

And how would you think

about those programs?

680

:

How are they viewed internally?

681

:

Maybe just walk us through

like, what do those mean to you?

682

:

Thao Ngo: think it's coming from

what I said before about being

683

:

authentic and enjoying the journey.

684

:

Cause I always put myself in the place

of our prospect or customer and there

685

:

was just a ton of webinars and eBooks

out there that were super boring.

686

:

So I'm like, Oh my God, I want

to put another one out there.

687

:

I want to do something interesting.

688

:

So it's more fun for me as well.

689

:

And right now, people trust each

other, not only analysts and reviews

690

:

or whatever, but they just trust their

own community and people they respect.

691

:

So we needed to, Get brand awareness on

Uptempo because it's a new brand with

692

:

the three companies coming together.

693

:

We didn't have a massive budget as well.

694

:

So I need to punch above my weight.

695

:

And it was like prison yard rules.

696

:

Like you find the biggest

guy and you fight him, right?

697

:

And that's what I did with Daryl, except

he was really nice So I reached out

698

:

to him and said, Hey, do you want to?

699

:

Talk about things that we can do together.

700

:

This is what we're all about.

701

:

Like, I don't think I wrote anything

that was particularly mind bending,

702

:

but It was authentic to my voice.

703

:

And he's so nice, and he responded.

704

:

It was like a cold pitch.

705

:

And I gave him an idea that I had

because I've seen this work with CMOs.

706

:

There's a CMO live event that happens on

a weekly basis, and it's quite popular.

707

:

And I thought, I don't think there's

one for marketing operations.

708

:

And I think that.

709

:

People are challenged with the same

things and going through the same

710

:

hardships and there's an opportunity for

people to have a safe space to share.

711

:

So we were like, okay, well,

let's try this thing for three

712

:

months and see what happens.

713

:

And it was so interesting to see, because

I was like, who's going to speak up,

714

:

maybe people aren't going to speak up.

715

:

But I was so surprised we couldn't,

we typically don't get through five.

716

:

Discussion topics in an hour because

there's so much participation.

717

:

So many people have Things

to say or questions and of

718

:

course the chat is just crazy.

719

:

It can't keep up with

that So it seemed to work.

720

:

just getting people to be real and

to speak frankly and Seems to work.

721

:

So let's continue doing that and let's

think about other people in the community

722

:

that are respected that have opinions that

can weigh in on different topics as well.

723

:

So that's how Mops Unplugged came to be

as well, because I just really wanted to.

724

:

Elevate different voices as

well in the MOPS community.

725

:

So I like the idea of different cohorts

for six months and it's the kind of thing

726

:

that I would like to consume out there.

727

:

That's how I want to receive information.

728

:

It's like people who have been

there, done that, their opinions.

729

:

That's more interesting

to me than anything else.

730

:

And even our customer webinars

that we do on planning, we had

731

:

Ikea and HubSpot just say, Hey!

732

:

This is how we do it.

733

:

These are the challenges we

had, and this is how we manage

734

:

it, and this is where we're at.

735

:

So people are interested in that, the how.

736

:

Show me the how.

737

:

Show me what's really happening,

instead of things that are a little

738

:

bit too dry and theoretical and, right?

739

:

So, it's about thinking about how you'd

handle being in prison, basically.

740

:

Justin Norris: you touched on

something that I really care a lot

741

:

about, which is like, what, type

of content would I want to consume?

742

:

you know, you're lucky in a sense

that you're a marketer and you're

743

:

selling to marketers and you're

talking to marketers or, you know,

744

:

people within that discipline.

745

:

So that is a plus already.

746

:

But something I think about a lot

and, you know, in my kind of day

747

:

job, we're selling to a learning

persona, but it's the same idea.

748

:

what would they want to consume?

749

:

And I think there's this tendency we

have as marketers to almost like view

750

:

what we do is this like industrial

process where we can like bring

751

:

people in and like nurture, and like

752

:

move them along this conveyor

belt, like a lump of ore or

753

:

something getting refined.

754

:

And just giving people something that

is fun and valuable and giving them a

755

:

space to connect and talk about their

shared challenges and pains and, vent

756

:

a little bit and you don't record them.

757

:

It's not like your typical webinar

758

:

Thao Ngo: Right.

759

:

Justin Norris: you know.

760

:

Thao Ngo: No sales deck, no sales

pitches, no recording and I've

761

:

had salespeople try to come on.

762

:

I'm like, sorry, this is like just for

MOPS or people that are responsible

763

:

for the MOPS portfolio and I don't

let my own salespeople attend.

764

:

So they're shut out But the thing

is that keeps the integrity of

765

:

the conversations that you have, right?

766

:

That it truly is a safe space.

767

:

And what you said before about like,

we always think about everything

768

:

in the way that it should work.

769

:

Like, hey, I'll send out an 8 hour email.

770

:

Email nurture program or 12 and at the end

of it, they're going to be ready to buy.

771

:

It's like, that's not really how it works.

772

:

No matter how compelling your emails

or messages are, you just have to be

773

:

ready to meet people where they are.

774

:

So all you can do in the meantime is

make sure they understand who you are

775

:

and you're providing value with them.

776

:

And when they are ready, they're

like, Oh, well, wait a minute.

777

:

I know this uptempo company.

778

:

I have a planning challenge.

779

:

And shout out.

780

:

Contact them, but I don't think it's as

easy as this magical eight email nurture,

781

:

Justin Norris: You alluded to before the

challenge about getting people to just

782

:

hold on With these sorts of initiatives.

783

:

There is this Urgency that people

have and it's understandable.

784

:

So you mentioned being very

good at selling things.

785

:

How do you do that?

786

:

How do you explain your strategy and

create this space and this freedom to say,

787

:

like, we're going to need to run these

huddles for like six or nine months before

788

:

we start to see people coming in and,

you know, be able to connect those dots.

789

:

How do you give yourself that freedom?

790

:

Thao Ngo: Well, I do share the

numbers and the survey results and

791

:

the comments after each event as well.

792

:

And people can see the energy with

each event and the numbers and the

793

:

comments that we get from people.

794

:

And.

795

:

It is an indication that we're doing

something right and we're giving back

796

:

something of value to the community.

797

:

And when you do look at leads that

come in, or opportunities that are

798

:

closed or opportunities in flight,

you can see their journey and.

799

:

It's always involving something to do

with our offense or our content, right?

800

:

And maybe it's not the first thing or the

last thing or whatever it is, but it is

801

:

part of their journey in understanding

up tempo and eventually buying us.

802

:

It's an important part of it.

803

:

And I always think about

it as like a soccer team.

804

:

When you're on a soccer team

and you win a game, you win.

805

:

It's never like, Oh, defense won it or

strikers won it or midfields won it.

806

:

It's like, we did the plays together

to create the right place to score.

807

:

It's never like, Oh, the strikers scored.

808

:

And that's what won the game.

809

:

It's like us as a team work

together on a strategy.

810

:

We each played hard.

811

:

We each had our roles on the field.

812

:

And that's what won the game.

813

:

It's always a team victory.

814

:

So that's how I see it.

815

:

It's never like sales versus

SDRs versus marketing.

816

:

We're all after the same thing

and we each provide value in

817

:

that journey for that person.

818

:

And so long as we hold strong on

the strategy that we have and do

819

:

our part, it's a win for all of us.

820

:

So, I know it's easier said than done,

for sure, but I'm just too busy firing

821

:

because I'm watching Top Chef right now.

822

:

I'm firing out the plates.

823

:

Too busy to think about exact

attribution or anything like that.

824

:

I just need people to understand that

we have all this positivity coming our

825

:

way, and it does mean something, and

we do see it in the numbers as well.

826

:

Justin Norris: So just to drill into

that a little bit, because I think this

827

:

is a very interesting point, but it's a

place where many people struggle because.

828

:

You know, CFOs, finance, whoever

they, people say, I need lead numbers.

829

:

I need MQL numbers.

830

:

I need SQL numbers, whatever it

is that numbers that they want.

831

:

And you're getting the

engagement data from the events

832

:

themselves, which is great.

833

:

Cause you can see who logged in

and you can see how many people

834

:

attended and what their feedback was.

835

:

So that's awesome.

836

:

Are you then thinking about how many of

these people are in our ICP or are you

837

:

know, collecting kind of, how did you

hear about a self reported attribution?

838

:

When they eventually do enter your

sales funnel to try to see if the

839

:

event was impactful upon them.

840

:

How do you try to connect those dots?

841

:

Thao Ngo: Yes, so we always look

at if our ICP, the percentage of

842

:

registrants or attendees that are ICP.

843

:

So we always keep an eye on that because

if it was a very small number, then really

844

:

we're doing great things, but for the

wrong people that we're trying to target.

845

:

So that's important.

846

:

The other thing is every

single opportunity that gets

847

:

created, I look at the notes.

848

:

I'm like, Oh.

849

:

Let's see what they did

right or their friends.

850

:

Okay.

851

:

Well, it looks like 10 people from

this brand have been attending

852

:

these events for the past year.

853

:

So while they closed came in maybe from

something else or talk to whatever.

854

:

We know that they touched those events

and that was an important part of it.

855

:

So I'm just always looking

at the ops created for sure.

856

:

But yes, we look at.

857

:

Okay.

858

:

The percentage of ICP for registrants,

attendees, and we use the opportunity of

859

:

these valuable content and events that

we have to reach out to our ICP as well.

860

:

So it's a great way for us to reach

out and say, Hey, not looking for

861

:

a credit card, but here's something

that you might enjoy reading or

862

:

get value from, or want to join.

863

:

So it's an opportunity for our

salespeople to show that we can

864

:

provide them with value as well.

865

:

So it's useful that way too.

866

:

Justin Norris: Maybe the last question

we have time for with all the things you

867

:

have going on, help us understand what is

like a day in the life of Tao look like?

868

:

And how do you organize your time?

869

:

Think about prioritization.

870

:

Think about having the right

level of situational awareness.

871

:

What does that flow look like for you?

872

:

Thao Ngo: Oh, first of all,

my alarm goes off at 6 AM.

873

:

Then it goes off at six or five.

874

:

Then 6.

875

:

10, then 6.

876

:

15, and then I rush to get ready.

877

:

I'm not a morning person, but we

have Germany, so I always have 7 a.

878

:

m.

879

:

meetings.

880

:

And I'm sometimes doing my hair,

putting on my cream during meetings.

881

:

But my days are four to eight

hours of meetings per day.

882

:

a lot of meetings.

883

:

I do block off my Fridays generally from

meetings and I have meetings typically

884

:

with only internal stakeholders.

885

:

So I rarely meet with vendors

or anything like that.

886

:

And the meetings are generally a

lot of work and project meetings.

887

:

I review probably and make decisions

probably no fewer than 20 times a day.

888

:

So there's always things

that come across my desk.

889

:

I'm like, yes, blue or no, do that.

890

:

Or yet spend 200, whatever I

make billion decisions a day.

891

:

And then I also get a sauna tasks

assigned to me so I can keep track

892

:

of really what people need from me.

893

:

And I usually try to clear that out

before the end of every day as well.

894

:

It's usually quiet after three though.

895

:

So usually most of my meetings from

7am to 3pm Pacific, because that's when

896

:

Germany and Boston are done with the day.

897

:

and then I'm working on

quiet work, I call it.

898

:

So work where I am writing or

reading or doing my own things

899

:

without meetings till six ish.

900

:

Go to a sport, come back,

do quiet work again.

901

:

I don't recommend people

work this often, right?

902

:

It is not healthy, not a

good work life balance.

903

:

Terrible.

904

:

But I need to get this all done.

905

:

And so, I'll do some quiet

work and then I stay up usually

906

:

till midnight to do my wordle.

907

:

Cause we have a world slack

channel and I got to get it in

908

:

when the Germans are getting me in.

909

:

so I am hands on in my working

meetings with my team members,

910

:

as well as the Asana tasks.

911

:

And then I have high level

meetings with the CMO and other

912

:

L2 leaders in the company.

913

:

So they understand what's going on.

914

:

And of course, time that I have with

our customers and people that we're

915

:

working with such as yourself as well.

916

:

But yeah, it is a very meeting heavy

day, which is why it needs to be fun.

917

:

Justin Norris: So I love your leadership

philosophy, love what you're doing

918

:

and yeah, it's been a great experience

for me as just someone out in the

919

:

community working with you, working

with uptempo and some of these projects.

920

:

So thank you for including me and

thank you for coming on the show today.

921

:

It was really fun discussion.

922

:

Thao Ngo: No, thank you for

having me and taking the time.

923

:

It was great just to reflect on my

experiences because like I said, I'm

924

:

constantly out there talking about

marketing planning, talking to the MOPS

925

:

community, and it's taking the time to

think back on my own journey, which I

926

:

don't really get to do very often, so.

927

:

It was it was

928

:

Justin Norris: Awesome.

929

:

Right.

930

:

Well, we will speak again.

931

:

Bye for now.

932

:

Thao Ngo: Yes!

933

:

Bye.

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