Shownotes
In this episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn, Kim Clark talks with Maria Gamboa. Maria talks about the takeaways from her dissertation leading into consultant work. Gamboa believes there needs to be a major shift in mindset for inclusion. There are many group rights around voting. We must try to understand what policies impact certain groups. Maria believes that there are many inequities in language, concerning policy - especially under the DEI lens. How can we take responsibility to do better in policy creation? We must have discussion around integrity when creating and enforcing political campaigns. We must have the difficult discussions with everyone about what is considered ‘normal’ and what are stereotypes. Maria shares we must acknowledge the realities of inequities and always create discussion around policy reinforcement for certain groups.
About the Guest:
Maria is a first generation immigrant, mother, wife, former academic and historian, and currently works as a consultant helping nonprofits and foundations develop strategic plans. She grew up in the US and Mexico, and is currently based in San Diego.
Maria recently launched a blog where she examines mental health in the workplace for first generation professionals. You can follow her on LinkedIn or Instagram.
About Kim:
Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.
She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.
Communicate Like You Give A Damn Podcast
Thank you for listening! Please review, leave a comment and subscribe!
Here is the NYT article on the Fulbright, and my blogpost on "diversity money". Here is Amber Cabral's post on Juneteenth and the Walmart ice cream.
Transcripts
Hello, welcome back. Thank you for being here. Maria,
Kim Clark:I am so excited to have a conversation with you, you and I
Kim Clark:have been on in a couple of trainings together, you helped
Kim Clark:me out and put together a YouTube video that talks about
Kim Clark:how not to be performative during Hispanic Heritage Month,
Kim Clark:we're going to talk about the terminal lateen, Latinx, etc. So
Kim Clark:that's why I hesitated stuff. So I, I am so fascinated by your
Kim Clark:background, and I really enjoy our conversations. And I know
Kim Clark:that you're going to be bring a very unique angle to this
Kim Clark:conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion,
Kim Clark:communications, and inclusive language as it relates to
Kim Clark:policies. This is gonna be a really interesting conversation.
Kim Clark:So please introduce yourself, and we'll get into it.
Maria Gamboa:Thanks. My name is Maria Gamboa. I'm a consultant
Maria Gamboa:and my prior life was as academic trained as a historian.
Maria Gamboa:And so that's what I that's what I did, I studied the history of
Maria Gamboa:a lot of policies to understand them. Yeah, and I think what I
Maria Gamboa:do, too, is help improve programs and understand the
Maria Gamboa:purpose of programs and how they're written and who they're
Maria Gamboa:actually for. And if they're achieving their goals. So no, we
Maria Gamboa:do Yeah, now we do. Now I do strategy consulting for
Maria Gamboa:nonprofits and foundations, and a lot in health care and
Maria Gamboa:education. But, you know, that's my day job. And so I'm always
Maria Gamboa:asking hard questions about programs, what their goal is,
Maria Gamboa:and also resistance to implementation, because that's
Maria Gamboa:one of the things right that it's one thing to write
Maria Gamboa:something down, it's another thing to implement it and
Maria Gamboa:enforce it and fund it. So those are some of the questions How
Maria Gamboa:does it work in practice?
Kim Clark:Well, you have your PhD, which is so impressive. And
Kim Clark:I would like to learn about what got you to do the topic that you
Kim Clark:did on your dissertation? And what were some of the key things
Kim Clark:that kind of you they were takeaways from surprise you
Kim Clark:within the work that you now do in your consulting?
Unknown:Yeah, so my research was actually on the history of
Unknown:comprehensive immigration reform. So the 1986 Act that
Unknown:many remember is amnesty, but which actually started as an
Unknown:employer sanctions bill. So how did that happen? I study that,
Unknown:and I study how Latinos were being recognized as a domestic
Unknown:minority group that needed protection, and resources, at
Unknown:the same time that undocumented immigration was growing. And so
Unknown:the problems that that created for these advocacy groups that
Unknown:were trying to increase protections for Latinos in
Unknown:education and employment and voting and housing, you know,
Unknown:all the areas where it shows up. And people were testing the
Unknown:limits of that inclusion, back then in the 60s and 70s 70s,
Unknown:especially, to see if it included immigrants. And
Unknown:sometimes people hadn't thought that it could include immigrants
Unknown:or that immigrants would ever access rights and resources. And
Unknown:so once that started happening, they started to write exclusions
Unknown:to make sure that immigrants did not, were not included. And so
Unknown:now we're in a moment where states are rewriting policies to
Unknown:be inclusionary or exclusionary. And that's important when we
Unknown:talk about inclusion just because inclusion makes some
Unknown:people very uncomfortable, because it requires a shift in
Unknown:mindset. And sometimes people think, have very definitions
Unknown:just of what it means some people think that means
Unknown:inclusion at the bottom. And that that people will be
Unknown:satisfied with that. And other people think it means inclusion
Unknown:at all levels, even at the top, even in leadership. So that's
Unknown:some of what I examined. And for example, just real quick, this
Unknown:is when they were debating if undocumented kids should have
Unknown:the right to go to public school. And when it went to the
Unknown:Supreme Court, the justices were asking, Okay, what are the
Unknown:implications? If if undocumented kids are given the right to go
Unknown:to public school? Do they get to go to college to what if they
Unknown:ever want to go to college? And the lawyers for the kids were
Unknown:saying, well, we're not talking about college, we that's not
Unknown:included. We're only talking about K through 12. So even
Unknown:then, there are limits on how much inclusion we're talking
Unknown:about. And so that's always something to keep in mind.
Kim Clark:You had mentioned inclusion can be uncomfortable.
Kim Clark:And, you know, if we were just like, look at that sentence, it
Kim Clark:it seems like inclusion would be uncomfortable. Doesn't everyone
Kim Clark:want inclusion, however, the work that you do in looking at
Kim Clark:programs policy policies specifically because policies
Kim Clark:are where the institutionalization of racism,
Kim Clark:sexism, sexism, homophobia, etc exists, but it's what we talked
Kim Clark:about here is language leads to behavior. So there is
Kim Clark:intentional language written into these policies to your
Kim Clark:point that is exclusionary. However, on the surface, we may
Kim Clark:not necessarily see it. We may not notice it, are there some
Kim Clark:common phrases, or some examples that you can share where you've
Kim Clark:come across language that actually seems like it's a good
Kim Clark:thing, a positive thing? But actually, it's quite
Kim Clark:exclusionary in practice? Yeah, I
Unknown:mean, I'm thinking of examples from the present and
Unknown:the past. So sometimes, it's the group's omitted. So sometimes
Unknown:when you have a policy, it'll say things like for, and I'm
Unknown:thinking like, then the National Labor Relations Act, for
Unknown:example, that included new protections for workers, right.
Unknown:The fine print said this excluded farm workers and
Unknown:domestic workers, which were racialized categories. So
Unknown:sometimes the fine prints like this, this policy is for
Unknown:everyone, except this group, which is a group that is not
Unknown:called to a no, you're not saying black and Latino, but
Unknown:you're saying by some other name. And so I'm just thinking,
Unknown:so many examples. Another example, in history is just are
Unknown:you able to enforce the thing? So things that sound good, but
Unknown:so I had written down like the GI Bill, you know, which had
Unknown:given people the opportunity to go to college and buy a home.
Unknown:But the reality was, like segregated schools, segregated
Unknown:neighborhoods, and so how do you enforce it? But when you talk
Unknown:about language, I think there's some of the things are ignoring
Unknown:present inequities. So I could see policies were voting rights,
Unknown:for example, there's bills, right now to say that we don't
Unknown:need protections anymore for voting, you know, for voting
Unknown:because we've reached equality or parity. And so it means
Unknown:getting rid of kind of oversight to ensure that the process is
Unknown:being carried out in a way that people have access to voting.
Unknown:But if you think historically, right, in 1965, when the Voting
Unknown:Rights Act passed, you know, just because you're given
Unknown:something doesn't mean you can do it. So now, I think there's
Unknown:bills to require ID or to make it harder to vote by mail. Even
Unknown:things like in reproductive health care, which we do a lot
Unknown:of work, sometimes the group's most affected by policies are
Unknown:not named. Right. So with restrictions on abortion, for
Unknown:example, they don't say the group's most likely to be
Unknown:affected by it. But so what I'm saying is just that it's a lack
Unknown:of acknowledgement of present inequities that mean policies
Unknown:are going to impact certain groups more heavily, right, or
Unknown:more negatively. Student loans. If you look at the data of like,
Unknown:who takes out loans, who has the highest debt burden, oftentimes,
Unknown:you'll see it's, it's historically excluded groups,
Unknown:groups that don't have the safety, net and wealth to pay
Unknown:for their own education and things like that. So I'm
Unknown:thinking legislatively, but there's a lot of ways in which
Unknown:things are written in a way that seems neutral or just general.
Unknown:And that makes, the argument is that it's the idea that it won't
Unknown:impact groups differently. But I think the hidden subtext or
Unknown:context of like the history of this country is what would
Unknown:explain why it would have a disparate impact. And so part of
Unknown:the thing is, then what's the impact versus intent just
Unknown:because you didn't mean for it to have an impact on certain
Unknown:groups? Or you wrote it in a way that it's not calling that out?
Unknown:Doesn't mean it won't. And I think that's part of the the
Unknown:resistance against critical race theory for people to know what
Unknown:actually happened and why policies reinforce inequities,
Unknown:even if they're not naming groups by name,
Kim Clark:I think it's a really important point, and how it's
Kim Clark:baked in to policies and systems infrastructure, in such a way
Kim Clark:that it's creating barriers for certain demographics and
Kim Clark:communities. However, you know, to your point around voter
Kim Clark:suppression, for example, it's intended to to disenfranchise in
Kim Clark:control more of the black community's vote. It is also
Kim Clark:harming people with disabilities and other white people, frankly,
Kim Clark:who have a harder time with transportation, for example. So
Kim Clark:it actually is still hurting, dominant cultures, but they
Kim Clark:don't see it that way. And so the way the language is
Kim Clark:positioned and who it's coming from To what audience for what
Kim Clark:impact. It's actually there's a self sabotage that happens. It's
Kim Clark:like where Heather McGee talks about the draining of the pool,
Kim Clark:you know, so you know, back in the day, everyone, yeah,
Kim Clark:everyone loses out. And I've seen more and more examples
Kim Clark:lately have of, well, you know, if this person wants to do this,
Kim Clark:and we don't want this person to do this, so then we're going to
Kim Clark:make up a new rule, we're going to come up with a new policy,
Kim Clark:and or we're going to amend the current one to make it mean that
Kim Clark:nobody can do this thing. Because this one person wants to
Kim Clark:do this. And we don't want that person to do that. So we're just
Kim Clark:going to change the rules. So nobody does it. So there's
Kim Clark:different versions of draining the pool that are alive and well
Kim Clark:today. So one of the things that I think people really don't
Kim Clark:really understand, like, when I started a job, and I'm reading
Kim Clark:the code of conduct, maybe in my first couple of days at the job,
Kim Clark:and then I never look at it again, you know, the employee
Kim Clark:handbook, or the code of conduct, etc. There's things in
Kim Clark:there, and I don't even know anything about the company yet I
Kim Clark:haven't started up, you know, I'm just ramping. And there's
Kim Clark:all the pressure of you know, you know, whatever, that whole
Kim Clark:time period when you're onboarding into a company, but
Kim Clark:one of the things that some of us, not all of us will do, but
Kim Clark:we'll sign the form to say that we read the employee handbook or
Kim Clark:the code of conduct, but if we did, we don't look at it. Again,
Kim Clark:we just kind of operationally operationalize ourselves within
Kim Clark:the unwritten rules of the culture, the workplace culture,
Kim Clark:so and then if we do something, and somebody actually wants to
Kim Clark:create a situation to retaliate or punish or fire us, or
Kim Clark:whatever it is, they will, that's when the employee
Kim Clark:handbook comes back into motion and like, well, you signed the
Kim Clark:document. So language becomes a weapon in those scenarios, and
Kim Clark:also is a way to control culture on a subjective basis. And
Kim Clark:there's things within our employee handbook and our code
Kim Clark:of conduct that I'm reminded of a work done, I don't know if
Kim Clark:you've read it by the Stanford innovation review, where it's
Kim Clark:titled the bias of professionalism. And it talks
Kim Clark:about the policies and practices, the employee
Kim Clark:handbook, what this subjective term professionalism is, and how
Kim Clark:it shows up. My point in bringing all this up is that
Kim Clark:when language is used as a weapon basically refer to in a
Kim Clark:way that could be vague, just enough to let a lot of people
Kim Clark:interpret it in different ways. So there's kind of a wild wild
Kim Clark:west that you know, is is at play here. And this is happening
Kim Clark:in Florida around the book bands and how DeSantis is is defending
Kim Clark:saying I never said that. But it's written in such a vague way
Kim Clark:that one person can complain about a book or a documentary on
Kim Clark:Ruby Bridges, and then it's pulled. So the ambiguity of
Kim Clark:language, but also utilizing the code of conduct or whatever, in
Kim Clark:a way, when you know that the employees aren't really looking
Kim Clark:at it, but then you can use it as a weapon. There's a real
Kim Clark:world and a real life impact to what is baked into these things.
Kim Clark:Can you speak to that a little bit or have some more examples?
Unknown:Yeah, you mentioned the book band, I'm just trying to
Unknown:think how else this shows up. I mean, part of it. To me, what it
Unknown:brings to mind is just that when things are vague like that, it
Unknown:would be helpful in the organizations that we work with,
Unknown:if you actually have a shared meaning across the organization
Unknown:of what you're talking about. When you say professionalism.
Unknown:When you say equity, when you say inclusion, when you say
Unknown:like, what does it look like? What does it feel like? What's
Unknown:an example? But I mean, just what it's bringing to mind too,
Unknown:is that you do when you join an organization follow or follow,
Unknown:you know, follow along with the way the behaviors that are
Unknown:modeled by the leaders, by the supervisors by those in power.
Unknown:So depending on who those people are, in their belief systems is,
Unknown:is can create exclusion for to those who think differently, who
Unknown:have who operate differently, who have a different background,
Unknown:who even have different opinions. So I'm just wondering
Unknown:if there's anything more specific you have in mind?
Kim Clark:No, I think that that's great. I mean, we're
Kim Clark:gonna be talking to somebody in another episode talking about
Kim Clark:the impact of stereotypes from the media, for example, where
Kim Clark:we've had CEOs make comments of that there is no connection this
Kim Clark:is just entertaining. And these are just stories, there's no
Kim Clark:real world impact to the stories, you know that we tell
Kim Clark:these fictional characters. And there's there's no bigger BS
Kim Clark:than that. So what we'll talk a little bit more about how how
Kim Clark:language and visuals have been actually use, that has actually
Kim Clark:had real world impact as well. So many of the folks that are
Kim Clark:listening are professional communicators. And they are
Kim Clark:setting the tone and the personality of what the language
Kim Clark:is within the organizations from which we serve. So can you talk
Kim Clark:about some examples that you have found in the work of when
Kim Clark:you're looking for inequities and equities, within the
Kim Clark:policies and any any other kind of content that you review and
Kim Clark:you're looking for, that communicators can have an
Kim Clark:influence and start to have these conversations of being
Kim Clark:able to have a dei lens on what they what they are putting out
Kim Clark:as communicators, but also what they're supporting? When it
Kim Clark:comes to code of conduct or employee handbooks, policies,
Kim Clark:other practices, processes, etc? How can how can What is that dei
Kim Clark:lens look like? What do we need to be looking out for inequities
Kim Clark:within language?
Unknown:I think it's a long process. So there's the
Unknown:education piece. I mean, I would listen with education, empathy,
Unknown:and humility. But you have to build that in right, not just
Unknown:write it down. So education, I'm thinking, you have to be curious
Unknown:and open, learn and read. So we talked a little I mean, I've
Unknown:come across, come across this right, the controversy on we
Unknown:were talking about Latin X or pregnant person, it's kind of a
Unknown:privilege to not have to understand those terms, or to
Unknown:just disagree with terms. And I think a good communicator would
Unknown:is someone who's curious and open to learn and read something
Unknown:that might not affect them directly. But that affects
Unknown:people in general. And empathy is learning what's actually at
Unknown:stake, right, I think you were mentioning like how language has
Unknown:an impact on people's lives. With the term pregnant person,
Unknown:or Latinx, right? Learning what's actually at stake. So
Unknown:even with pronouns, people have pushed back or what the term
Unknown:Latinx thinking, it's vanity or people are trying or people are
Unknown:being, you know, not getting what's the point, and it's much
Unknown:deeper, right? We're talking about safety. We're talking
Unknown:about inclusion and belonging, so people can focus on what
Unknown:they're there to do, so that they can work in peace so that
Unknown:they feel safe to go to work, so that they feel safe to use your
Unknown:services. They feel welcome at your institution. And what's
Unknown:behind it is the danger and risk, people's sense of safety,
Unknown:their ability to concentrate, the reality, right, that certain
Unknown:groups face violence, harassment, physical danger, but
Unknown:also mental, you know, that all this contributes to like, making
Unknown:it harder for them to just focus because they're feeling
Unknown:aggression. And so thinking about, I just think a lot about
Unknown:education, right? Like there's experts on this stuff. We're not
Unknown:all experts, but we can tap into those resources. And then the
Unknown:empathy, thinking about what's more important, right, my
Unknown:convenience or your safety?
Kim Clark:Oh, just pause right there. Say that again, and break
Kim Clark:that down.
Unknown:I was saying it's a privilege to not know or care
Unknown:about things that don't affect you, right? Because you're not
Unknown:in danger. And if you don't have to learn the terms, or if you
Unknown:don't have to learn what it means, or why it's important to
Unknown:use a term that includes people that acknowledges the humanity
Unknown:of people are excluded. Right? What the importance, the power
Unknown:of that, versus you're too lazy to get it. Right. Right. And I
Unknown:think part of that is that we're all imperfect, we all make
Unknown:mistakes, we all mess up. So a humility is involved too, right?
Unknown:That you're probably gonna mess up. But your embarrassment can't
Unknown:be bigger. Right then like to. So if you're so embarrassed, you
Unknown:can be like, Oh, it never happened. I can keep messing up
Unknown:because it's more embarrassing to admit. When you mess up for
Unknown:me, or I feel nauseous when I let people down.
Kim Clark:But shame Yeah, I experienced that.
Unknown:But imagine what the other person feels that felt
Unknown:harmed, that's even worse. So and it's not their job to
Unknown:educate us. That's the problem, right? Because imagine like
Unknown:feeling harmed and then being like, actually, this is why it
Unknown:matters. Like that's horrible. So it's kind of on us to Yeah,
Unknown:apologize, do better learn and change, right. And so it's okay
Unknown:to mess up. But don't let your ego like take over the impact,
Unknown:right. And so just a lot of a lot of advice, you know, for
Unknown:people with privilege to use their privilege as allies. So if
Unknown:someone says something that is exclusionary, discriminatory,
Unknown:don't wait for a person from that group to bring it up. Like,
Unknown:that's a lot of weight to carry step in. And yeah, I just have
Unknown:more examples. I think we were talking about our kids. And
Unknown:there's, we're all imperfect. So I'll just say like, I mess up a
Unknown:lot to communicators or people to write. So don't expect
Unknown:perfection.
Kim Clark:People First. Yeah, absolutely.
Unknown:So it's kind of like you have to be open to
Unknown:continuous improvement, and not take it personally if you get it
Unknown:wrong. But take responsibility to do better. And I think, I
Unknown:mean, I don't know if this fits, but don't just think about the
Unknown:money. Because I think some campaigns think about, oh,
Unknown:you're inclusive to reach more markets, and blah, blah, blah.
Unknown:That may not be true for you know, this beer controversy. But
Unknown:but but just the, you know, it's more about, it's more at stake
Unknown:back to the point about empathy, like, what's the significance,
Unknown:right? If you reproduce language that puts people at risk or
Unknown:questions people's humanity or excludes people, that's going to
Unknown:have an impact and doesn't, you know, even if you can improve
Unknown:and get it, right, but if you choose not to get it, right,
Unknown:that doesn't look so good for your company, and the harm that
Unknown:you can be causing inadvertently.
Kim Clark:And it's not up to the other person to get over it,
Kim Clark:or take a joke, when we can do a whole episode on all of this. I
Kim Clark:just really loved how you laid it down with your inconvenience
Kim Clark:is not more important than my safety. And I just I really love
Kim Clark:that point. And thank you for deconstructing it out and, and
Kim Clark:helping people hear that, yeah, we were talking about our kids
Kim Clark:offline. Before we were recording and how you were, I
Kim Clark:won't tell your side of the story. But my side of the story
Kim Clark:is that I have a 12 year old daughter, who, although she is
Kim Clark:adopted, she's she, her birth family comes from Eastern
Kim Clark:European Europe, Europe, she has white skin and brown hair, etc.
Kim Clark:And so we actually have conversations around diversity,
Kim Clark:equity inclusion, believe it or not, I mean, I bought her, you
Kim Clark:know, the youth version of, you know, how to be a young, anti
Kim Clark:racist, for example, she loves learning about history and
Kim Clark:presidents. And so I utilize that to talk about colonization
Kim Clark:and the Holocaust and all kinds of things. So because she's
Kim Clark:interested in it, and when I miss gender, or I assign a
Kim Clark:gender, like if we're driving and somebody cuts me off, and I
Kim Clark:say, I can't believe he did that. I you know, my default is
Kim Clark:key. When I can't identify a gender I just go to heat, right?
Kim Clark:And wonderful kid will say you don't know if it's a you know,
Kim Clark:you're right, you're absolutely right. And there's things that
Kim Clark:don't come to her attention. Like, she'll say, she'll talk
Kim Clark:about the word normal. And then you know, I choose the time, but
Kim Clark:that's one of those flag words, I'm sure you have flag words
Kim Clark:that kind of make your ears perk a little bit, that and like,
Kim Clark:let's pow, you know, those are kind of like those might, those
Kim Clark:are my kind of, you know, kind of words, and I have many of
Kim Clark:them, but whenever I hear the word normal, and so I've had
Kim Clark:that conversation a couple of times with her. And if I say it,
Kim Clark:she will bring it to my attention, like so sheets. Oh,
Kim Clark:wow. She's getting that this word normal doesn't really
Kim Clark:exist. And it's it's existing to protect a certain structure. And
Kim Clark:it's not making room for people. For to be who they are, you
Kim Clark:know, that there's some sort of standard that people are failing
Kim Clark:to meet if they are not normal and what normal is and we're
Kim Clark:we're all supposed to just understand what that definition
Kim Clark:of normal is. So it's been an interesting conversation. What
Kim Clark:about you?
Unknown:Oh, my God, I love this because first of all kids hear
Unknown:everything you say. My kid is three. Okay. There's things I
Unknown:forgot. We said that she was when she was younger than that.
Unknown:So I think for me, what happened is, she has not internalized
Unknown:stereotypes, but she's getting there. Right. And so it's a long
Unknown:story, but basically we were in Mexico and my mom, my mom lives
Unknown:in Mexico. She doesn't have screens on our Windows and So
Unknown:the mosquitoes you know, when we stayed with her, we got bit by
Unknown:mosquitoes. And then from there, it got summarized into there's
Unknown:mosquitoes in Mexico. Right? And Mexico is weird because they
Unknown:have mosquitoes, right. And so she was telling me the other day
Unknown:that at school because she knows she's Mexican, but she's not
Unknown:sure how much or what, or where Mexico is. I had to buy her
Unknown:globe. But um, she made the point like, I'm, I'm Max, I'm,
Unknown:what'd she say? I'm Mexican. I'm normal. And I'm Mexican, or
Unknown:something like that. Sometimes I'm normal. Sometimes I'm
Unknown:Mexican. That's like, actually Mexican is normal. Everything's
Unknown:normal, right? white, brown, black, Asian, every Mexican is
Unknown:normal. And she said, Yeah, I love Mexico. Grandma lives
Unknown:there. But they're mosquitoes. It's weird, right? It's a little
Unknown:weird. Like, no, there's mosquitoes here. We just have
Unknown:screens, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then I told her, I'm
Unknown:Mexican. So it's, it's kind of like, not nice to say that
Unknown:anyone's weird, right. But that was a lot for her to handle. She
Unknown:started crying because she thought she had offended me. You
Unknown:know, and I'm so it's like, deep, this is deep stuff. And I
Unknown:told her you didn't know you're just trying to figure out how
Unknown:this all works, where these places even are. So I mean, the
Unknown:lesson there is just like, be gentle. But um, kids are
Unknown:curious. And so we know, we need to educate ourselves, to be able
Unknown:to translate to them like what that means. But I do think it's
Unknown:good to talk about race and in an informed way. And there's a
Unknown:book that I read before I had kids called nurture shock. I
Unknown:think that's what it's called, that talks about you talk to
Unknown:kids about everything, right? Disability, everything, right?
Unknown:So that everything's normal? Actually, yes. And they don't
Unknown:embarrass you in public, when they seem like they're so you
Unknown:know, like asking you, and if they do ask you, you respond
Unknown:naturally, you don't tell them? You know, don't say that. So,
Unknown:I'm still learning. I'm just saying, because sometimes, I
Unknown:know how to respond to adults, but not children. I mean, what
Unknown:do you do when a kid is racist? And their parents not there? You
Unknown:know, I'm still learning how to figure that out. Because my
Unknown:initial reaction is like, get my kid away from that kid, right?
Unknown:Like, you don't need to be around specialty around it a
Unknown:lot, actually, on her own. So I'm not there yet. But yeah, I
Unknown:mean, part of it is normalizing everything, and then being age
Unknown:appropriate, right, and that they don't mean harm. They're
Unknown:curious. But if you say stuff that's problematic, they're
Unknown:gonna repeat it. So
Kim Clark:now, we've heard more often, especially since the
Kim Clark:summer of 2020, about the Black and African American community
Kim Clark:having the talk, the race conversation, I was raised in a
Kim Clark:very white household, even though I have Native American
Kim Clark:heritage, that wasn't brought into the conversation, it was
Kim Clark:just kind of we didn't really talk about race and ethnicity,
Kim Clark:right? Because we're normal, like we were just talking about,
Kim Clark:right. So we never had those conversations. So we don't have
Kim Clark:I don't have I didn't grow up with the skills to name myself
Kim Clark:identify myself see my place in the world. That's part of the
Kim Clark:the mentality of the obliviousness, that's part of
Kim Clark:part of why it works, etc. In, in the community from which you
Kim Clark:were raised? Are those those kinds of conversations while
Kim Clark:you're a kid, I think
Unknown:that it's different. Just on two dimensions. So what
Unknown:I hear about the talk is about safety. Right? What do you do
Unknown:when you encounter a police officer to stay alive? Right,
Unknown:because it might go wrong. And so I can see that happening if
Unknown:you're an immigrant, right, how to navigate encounters with
Unknown:immigration. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it is unspoken,
Unknown:you just know, don't mess up, or don't call talk to yourself or
Unknown:don't, you know, I was lucky enough to have legal status, but
Unknown:even you, you're very deferential, you know, to
Unknown:immigration, stuff like that, or to services that can report you
Unknown:to immigration and like jeopardize your family. I mean,
Unknown:I think it just shows up differently. If if there's an
Unknown:acknowledgement of discrimination, or once placed
Unknown:on the economic ladder that you don't talk back, you know, or
Unknown:speak up. So it just shows up in other ways, I think like in in
Unknown:the workforce, and especially I see that as a problem for first
Unknown:generation professionals who don't know how to advocate for
Unknown:themselves, manage up or disagree. That's how it shows up
Unknown:for me. And then I'll just say the problem is that within the
Unknown:Latino community, there's a lot of racism towards blacks and
Unknown:towards indigenous people. So I can't guarantee that there's so
Unknown:I'll just say there's that third element and classism, right
Unknown:where in Mexico I'll tell you, the police is not held in high
Unknown:regard, even the military because it seemed like a working
Unknown:class occupation. And so I don't, I don't want to say that
Unknown:it's whiteness, but it's that if you have enough money, you can
Unknown:do whatever you want. And so there's not this fear of, you're
Unknown:going to lose your life. Just because there's so much
Unknown:privilege, you know, among middle class Latinos, and then
Unknown:there's just a lot of racism towards to distinguish
Unknown:themselves from people who are seeing tab a worse situation. So
Unknown:it just shows up, like, in a lot of different ways.
Kim Clark:And I can attest that when I came out, then the
Kim Clark:conversations with my parents was about safety. And my mom
Kim Clark:even asked me like, okay, okay, can you tell nobody, because I'm
Kim Clark:really worried about your safety, like, you know, so she
Kim Clark:wanted to take advantage of my ability to pass, if you will.
Kim Clark:And that was really, really interesting. And I saw the love
Kim Clark:that she was trying to share with me on that. And unlike my
Kim Clark:color of my skin that is seen, however, the world sees it, and
Kim Clark:it's not my choice, it's out of my hands. As if I were, you
Kim Clark:know, I had more melanin in my skin than I do. I had a choice
Kim Clark:around, being out, if you will, there are certain situations
Kim Clark:where I do use that privilege. But in most situations, I do
Kim Clark:not, I don't take advantage of that privilege. But however, I
Kim Clark:also have height privilege, I have deep voice privilege. I
Kim Clark:have athletic shape, privilege, you know, so I take advantage of
Kim Clark:that, it's like, it's not smart to try to do anything to me,
Kim Clark:right? Or say anything to me, and, but I also, that's also
Kim Clark:white woman privilege that I am leveraging as well. So if I was
Kim Clark:a transgender person of color, who was shorter, for example, or
Kim Clark:a different body shape, etc, I would not have these kinds of
Kim Clark:privileges, and it would be less, less of it would be more
Kim Clark:out of my hands. But I did have that safety conversation with my
Kim Clark:parents when it came to my sexual orientation. So I
Kim Clark:appreciate you bringing up that point. And because there's
Kim Clark:certain work environments, or client environments, where I
Kim Clark:still to this day, at this age, I still don't come out,
Kim Clark:everywhere I go. Because of safety, I will be traveling to
Kim Clark:Florida soon. Equality, Florida has issued a travel advisory for
Kim Clark:the entire state of Florida for anyone who is LGBTQ plus, saying
Kim Clark:it is not safe to travel here. Certainly in certain pockets of
Kim Clark:Florida, a travel advisory has been issued, and I'm going to
Kim Clark:Florida and I will be I have the option, you know, to be out or
Kim Clark:not, or wear the T shirts that I have or not with the pride flag.
Kim Clark:And I it's an it's a safety situation. But there's also a
Kim Clark:sense of pride and solidarity and Ally ship and, and wanting
Kim Clark:people to know that I am here and I see them. But there are
Kim Clark:people that don't have the choices and the privilege and
Kim Clark:the options like I do. And I recognize that which motivates
Kim Clark:me more to be out to help with the stereotypes that can be more
Kim Clark:disproportionately harmful to people who can't necessarily
Kim Clark:hide as well as I can. So just in our last couple of minutes
Kim Clark:here, Maria, what does come you know, tying everything that we
Kim Clark:talked about the intrapersonal, the you know, the intra personal
Kim Clark:communication, as well as the reviewing of our language that
Kim Clark:builds the nuts and bolts and functions and infrastructures of
Kim Clark:our businesses in our policies or practices or processes, etc.
Kim Clark:What does it look like, in your opinion, to communicate like,
Kim Clark:give a damn,
Unknown:part of me wants to say you can't have assumptions about
Unknown:what's normal. Right? And which itself requires a growth
Unknown:mindset, right? Because how do you get it right, you might you
Unknown:won't get it right the first time. So I think partly is
Unknown:continuing being open to continuous improvement, being
Unknown:open to feedback, and telling people what you're doing with
Unknown:that feedback. I don't know pain people, you know, if you do
Unknown:focus groups, or if people have a role in making your materials
Unknown:more inclusive, paying for that knowledge, right, but also
Unknown:building the capacity. So not relying on certain groups to
Unknown:point out the flaws and recognizing the power dynamics
Unknown:inherent in that if you're asking someone for feedback,
Unknown:where you have more power and they don't feel comfortable
Unknown:actually telling you what they think to improve the language.
Unknown:So and I think when I say normative don't don't ask So
Unknown:many things normative. I mean, even the one thing I left out
Unknown:the question yesterday about the the talk, I mean, if you just
Unknown:look at the data, right, acknowledging the reality is
Unknown:acknowledging the relative inequities. And so that's why
Unknown:certain language is not going to land for some people. Something
Unknown:we didn't talk about is exclusion of people who are
Unknown:formerly incarcerated, right? I see a lot of advances in
Unknown:programs to address that. Discrimination. But in popular
Unknown:culture, there's still jokes, right about what it is to be a
Unknown:prisoner, even my three year old, right? Like, oh, a band, it
Unknown:has stripes. So very young, that two years old, people are
Unknown:learning like what's going on? They try kids try to like,
Unknown:simplify, good, bad is that good or bad person. And that's not
Unknown:how it is. Some people are denied opportunities, right? And
Unknown:just about the talk, like Latino men, right, face enormous
Unknown:scrutiny, and they have to control their emotions. And so
Unknown:like the point of how it privilege that you were
Unknown:speaking, being able to raise us to make a scene to advocate for
Unknown:yourself to defend yourself requires privilege that you
Unknown:won't be, you won't face retribution for that. Right. So
Unknown:anyway, just in terms of what's normative, expanding what we
Unknown:think is normative and trying to go back to things that are still
Unknown:that are stereotypes. When you think about Disney movies that
Unknown:now have the disclaimer, this was offensive, then it's
Unknown:defensive now, okay, like, relook at things that for a long
Unknown:time have seemed okay, because things change, and and just in
Unknown:terms of history, you know, hard won rights can be lost. Right?
Unknown:And so, look at the ways in which people are trying to
Unknown:create new exclusion. Really? How do you say, very creatively,
Unknown:so that you can't tell? Right, so So, and there's a book by Ian
Unknown:Haney Lopez called dog whistle politics. I don't have the whole
Unknown:title. But you know, things like make America great again, what
Unknown:does that mean? Right? You don't say anything, but you say a lot,
Unknown:you're saying go back to a time when people didn't have rights
Unknown:when people couldn't vote can go to school. So just sometimes
Unknown:when we use language that seems just general, the people
Unknown:enforcing it, show you who's included in that normal, right.
Kim Clark:I used to teach in person I still teach online at
Kim Clark:San Jose State University in California. And one of the
Kim Clark:classes I used to teach is media theory and research, one of the
Kim Clark:things that we would do as a class is that we would watch
Kim Clark:news stories, for example, and we went, there's a lot to, and
Kim Clark:I'm only going to mention one slice of what we would pay
Kim Clark:attention to to deconstruct it. But one of the things I would
Kim Clark:point the students attention to and it's something I test
Kim Clark:myself, in my own media criticism, you know, critical
Kim Clark:thinking of media, etc. is to look at, okay, and I've made my
Kim Clark:own documentaries. So I know the conventions I you know, this is
Kim Clark:this is what one does, as a director, as a writer, you're
Kim Clark:telling the the audience where to look where what you want
Kim Clark:emphasized, write everything in the frame as a character to
Kim Clark:support the story that has a certain theme to it, sometimes
Kim Clark:life lessons, etc, mirroring life, and sometimes not, etc.
Kim Clark:But it's very intentional to draw the eye and lead the
Kim Clark:audience in a certain direction. We're showing you what we want
Kim Clark:you to see. So there's there's elements that are emphasized.
Kim Clark:But there's also elements that are de emphasized, what is being
Kim Clark:left out? Who is being left out? Why which circling back to what
Kim Clark:you said at the beginning, as as far as the programs that you
Kim Clark:evaluate, like, why are we doing this program? And what is the
Kim Clark:effect of it, they may have an intention, but it may have a
Kim Clark:different impact. So this idea of looking at our language and
Kim Clark:seeing what we are emphasizing who we are emphasizing and then
Kim Clark:weigh whether it's intentional or not, what are we
Kim Clark:deemphasizing? Who are we silencing Who are we? Who are we
Kim Clark:leaving out? Right, and that's part of having that dei lens on
Kim Clark:our work on a regular basis. Maria, thank you so much for
Kim Clark:bringing your expertise, your research and dissertation work
Kim Clark:to end your personal life and talking about your kid. You
Kim Clark:know, I just love the range of the conversation We just had,
Kim Clark:how can people stay in touch with you?
Unknown:I have a blog, Maria gamble.com, and I'm on LinkedIn
Unknown:and Instagram. So yeah, add me feel free to read what I write.
Unknown:It's a bunch of random stuff but all with this lens, you know,
Unknown:because I deconstruct PBS shows, I deconstruct, you know, higher
Unknown:ed programs. So it's just whatever I see with that lens.
Kim Clark:Excellent, excellent. So people can, can learn and
Kim Clark:kind of learn off of your example of what you're seeing
Kim Clark:that's emphasized and what's being left out and de
Kim Clark:emphasized. That's awesome. Thank you. I look forward to
Kim Clark:subscribing myself. Thank you for being here. Maria. It was so
Kim Clark:great to have you here. Thanks for the conversation. Thank you.
