Our bodies and brains are beautifully and purposefully made to work together to process all life experiences that we go through, whether good or bad.

This week we have a highly intelligent married couple, Bri and Brandon Vales on the podcast to dive into the wondrous complexities of the human brain: including the different behaviors that we do that stem from our past experiences, and the various attachment theories.

They provide the audience with practical steps to overcoming guilt, shame, and pain, and ways to rewrite your story with the narrative you want. You won’t want to miss this insightful conversation on how we are the way we are as human beings.

Click the link below to download the Resilience Resource and learn more about Red Light Rebellion.

https://www.redlightrebellion.org/resilience

The NO GREY AREAS platform is about the power, importance, and complexity of choices. We host motivating and informative interviews with captivating guests from all walks of life about learning and growing through our good and bad choices.

The purpose behind it all derives from the cautionary tale of Joseph N. Gagliano and one of sports’ greatest scandals.

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Today, we have an amazing conversation about how complex the human brain is. You're not going to want to miss it. Our guest today, Brandon and Brianna

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Vales.

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Brianna and Brandon, welcome to no Gray area. So glad to have you here. And I'm going to jump right in and just say that we're going to talk about a subject that I don't really know much about. I was going to I was going to dig into this and explore it a little bit, but I thought I'm going to be like the audience and learn as we go.

Unknown

So we're going to talk about attachment theory, how that's connected to choices. But before we get there, we actually have a connection. We go back a little ways, which means there's no way you're going to stop me with the two treaties

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and why. Right? So, yeah, how far back do we go? Right. We know it's 18, 13 years

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Yeah. While you were just out of high school. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were doing something with. Yeah. Anti-Trafficking.

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So I had learned about anti-trafficking in high school and then connected with aftercare program you were working with. And so you really like, took me under your wing and gave me like a little group to be like my committee and made the program a part of what you were doing with it.

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Yes. Yes. But you

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were just really mentoring me throughout all of that. And so I think a lot of like the wisdom and discernment and direction that we've taken with red light rebellion now was very much shaped by like your influence of mentorship in that time.

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You're married. How long you've been married? Nine years.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy. No process. This whole marriage thing.

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Yeah, it all out at this point when you like six months

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in. Okay. Yeah,

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because we sorry, 31 years and we're still trying to figure. Yeah.

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and when

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Yeah. So I had first heard about sex trafficking going into my junior year of high school at a church camp. So God told me to lead a movement against it. I thought it only happened in Cambodia. So I was like, Well, you too. I don't want to go there, so let's forget about it.

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And then six months later is when my church announced they're helping to launch the first aftercare program for minors here in the States. Okay. And then my mom was very excited because she's like, you don't have to go to Cambodia. It's

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going on right here. Yeah.

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And so immediately got involved because I was like, Oh, shoot. Like, that's I thought it just happened overseas, but now I'm finding out it's happening right here.

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The average age of entry is 13 years old, so me and my little brother and our friends were like the target for this. And so there's a lot, a lot going on. You were doing the documentary. The aftercare program was being built, and it was the first time the Phenix and Arizona had really had like a grassroots awareness movement that was happening to say, Hey, this isn't just an overseas problem, this is our problem.

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And so being a high school student, I was like, Well,

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are the high school students being told about this? And everyone, sure, they're targeting who they're targeting in high school. Yeah. And so I just took it very personally and I was like, we did it to the students. And so everyone else is doing really good work. And it was just really difficult to get into the schools, especially at that time.

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And so I just kind of yeah, I would, I

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jump in. When you

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holes on it in the beginning. Yes, in the beginning, yeah.

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Now, I think because we've had the Super Bowl come through twice and so much like advertisement and like awareness is done around sex trafficking.

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card on it.

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Yeah, I'm totally joking for the audience. They need to go watch. They

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Yeah. Is how

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bring a

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for sharing with you

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and I kind

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of more have got involved too. Once we got married because I had like pretty much everyone that's grown up post Internet pornography impact my life in a negative way.

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And so I remember going through initial process of addressing that and thinking like, man, how do I like it? So this conviction of like, man, I need to do something like God's calling me to do something to like help break this in the church and at that time I was like, Do I just walk up to people and be like, Hey, man, what's your brother history like?

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I was like, That's an awkward conversation. I don't really know what to do with this. And once we got married, Brian was like, Oh man, we need a demand prevention part for rebellion. And that was when we really kind of put the pieces together of, Wow, this is something we can actually both do together. And so that's when we kind of like our classroom program got developed and yeah, then we just everything that I've like wanted to do in terms of brand and just like pumping things up, it just got crazy.

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Yeah, Yeah. Because Brandon's an audio engineer and so then he brought in the speakers and the subwoofer and so, like the energy and you're just like, go on these almost like rants or jokes. I'm like, I don't know what's happening right now. Yeah, but it turn out perfect. And I've seen your wedding before,

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so I know know what you're

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talking about.

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So I need to plug that right now if anybody knows. Yeah. Yeah. So if you need that, this guy is the guy. We had to bring supplies to the party for sure.

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Oh, yeah,

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wish

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in

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right? Like

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churches were leading the charge in a lot of ways.

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And it was such a cool when you were able to get six churches around the valley together, 60 plus all together, we're going to build a safe house. Like I'm not sure we've seen a movement like that, especially within churches for that. And so and that's something I think that it's I don't know, awareness is now so much more commonplace.

Unknown

Obviously, there's always a need for more and different populations still haven't heard all the things but yeah, it was a cool, it was an exciting time and I didn't even see nearly as much of it as you did being so much behind the scenes and like spearheading that with the documentary and everything. Yeah, I was

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Was a good time.

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podcast

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trafficking, so to speak, but it's going to be connected. Yes, in a way. But let

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I think

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getting to be 50.

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I mean, I mean I mean, in the second half of my my

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first century,

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we're past I can't live past 100.

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So, you know, that that's what there was

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against me. I remember the

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Yeah,

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way. Very much, yeah. We knew the average age of exposure to porn is between eight and 11. And so I guess by the time we're talking to kids in high school, most of them in junior high have been exposed to some extent.

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And yeah, it's just with the nature of our phones and stuff, like literally every person is 3 seconds away from just seeing really intense things. And yeah, there's a lot of just voices and agendas to continue to push that. We know that sex sells on multiple fronts and so there is definitely the pornography industry has a whole like business agenda with promoting that and everything and specifically reaching young kids with it, you know?

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And so it could be

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for life for most of them, because it's going to be

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Yes, exactly. And then by the same thing to your brain, right. Really, by the time they're 18 with a credit card, they've got a lifetime customer know, which is a really smart business plan.

Unknown

Not so great for society, though. Yeah, well, and the crazy part about it, too, is when a child is exposed to porn prepubescent, it affects their brain the same way as if they're being physically, sexually abused. And the nature of Internet pornography where they say that because that you so a kid that is prepubescent being exposed to pornography, the impact of pornography on their brain is the same as if they're being physically sexually abused.

Unknown

And the nature of pornography is just click, click, click. You're seeing all these different images. So the doping being in their brain is being redlined in a way that is even more severe than taking hits of cocaine or crack or some of these like extreme hardcore drugs. And so now you've got kids that are growing up literally becoming addicted to their own sexual abuse, which is just a wild

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and horrific thing to think.

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Kids

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addicted,

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Yeah. Wow. Which is insane. And yet we respond to it. And it's so scary, especially as parents and like, we're like, oh, my gosh. Like, no, we don't want you exposed to this. But it's so shame based that it's difficult. And instead of treating the child as being, like, sexually deviant, it's like, Oh, we actually have to treat this child as being a survivor of sexual abuse.

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Was I suspected because

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that. Yeah.

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just walk through that?

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It was a definitely a process and a journey to get there, for sure.

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In all of our presentations that we do on pornography, I do share my story at the end because that's the one thing we really want to be intentional about is relieving shame in it, especially because when we're talking about how pornography does fuel the demand for sex trafficking, those two were like linked in a way you can't take apart.

Unknown

Yeah, and the finding out the reasons how someone why someone is turning to pornography is a really important question and helping people dig on that is the thing that we see relieve shame and helps get them the freedom that they want and so yeah, I went through a very long process in my early twenties of initially addressing this, of going to counseling and kind of addressing the root issues of even like how the pornography thing all started and then even went through a process of having this individual conversations with I think that first year it was upwards of 40 different people that I talk through just to be like, Hey, I need to clear the

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air about this things including family, friends, like mom, dad, sister, all individual conversations, because I was like, I've got to take this seriously. I don't want to be, you know, 65 years old. You came,

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that first year. Yeah. Conversation. I was just like, I do not want to be 65 years old with broken relationships and a bunch of baggage and just like things that have gone really south.

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And so. And how do I

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of courtesy.

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Seriously?

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it's almost like

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Yeah, Like I'm telling you, I'm

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dig in to where you're asking

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why

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image

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Yeah. What you're saying. Exactly. Yeah, I know.

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And it's interesting. You nailed it totally, Pat, that the addiction cycle doesn't matter if someone's addicted to if they're turning to drugs, sex, porn or food or the screen. So easy just to numb out for hours on end. For some reason stats that the average American spends over 19 hours a day on screen time

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because there's multiple screens in which they're not even sleeping as

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much as literally, literally

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sometimes were like watching TV and on our phones.

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And so that like doubles the amount of screen time, but just how easy it is to turn to these other things because the addiction cycle encompasses this idea that when we feel this moment of pain, we start to turn into ourselves to resolve our problems. And once we can't figure that out, instead of reaching out for help, we turn to whatever our vices, whether it's food, alcohol, drugs, and then we try to get that to solve our problem, to feel better.

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And then eventually it does for a moment, but kind of brings back this moment of pain, which starts the whole feedback cycle over again. And the only way to break out of addiction cycles is instead of reaching into yourself to try and resolve things, is to reach out to someone. And so most addicts, they actually they don't have a problem wanting something too much.

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They have a problem managing their emotions and having healthy relationships so they can lean on people in tough times. So addiction is an emotionally intimacy disorder. It's an emotional intimacy disorder. It's a I don't emotional intimacy disorder. Would you

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Oh, I think so. But I think especially with the screens, too, it's just that I feel like that's kind of like a

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given. And I say that because, you know,

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I don't know that

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intimacy issue, disorder, emotion, mismanaging of your emotions, saying, I feel a painful emotion. I don't know how to hold this face and resolve this. And so I'm going to numb out or do something to try to take away that pain. And so although not everything that we experience or engage in can clinically be defined as an addiction, I do think that as just like in the West, in America, yeah, I think that we just have a lot of opportunities and a lot of things just at the tip of our fingers to just numb out and that can turn into an addiction.

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So it's like not everyone that's going to look at porn is going to become addicted, but there's many people that can develop a compulsion that short of an addiction, but they're still using pornography to manage their emotions. Yeah, Yeah. In addiction is even defined by the point of views where your life starts to become unmanageable and relationships get hurt, your self gets hurt.

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So that's the point of addiction. Is that like becoming increasingly more unmanaged? You're not

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and there's no negative consequence. Screen time. Yeah,

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totally. Which I feel like a whole whatever many people are able to mostly get my food

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right

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might be my I feel like

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most people I know are able to

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manage their lives and still have like a compulsion thing with their phone.

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So I think that's even hoping like saying that, okay, not we don't have to be scared of like being addicted to all these things, but it is like, okay, at what point am I like leaning on this stuff for emotional support? That's robbing me of opportunities to have really significant relationships.

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Definitely a check in check in. Yeah, definitely check in July. Yeah. Yeah.

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here knows what attachment

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What is? Yeah.

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So yeah, attachment is and this whole conversation has been a perfect segue way and all of it is

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attachment.

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Thank you. Yeah. Awesome job because

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attachment basically is defined by the idea of it is how we connect with others. It is the lens at which we see ourselves in others through and the way in which we connect with other people. So that's the basic idea for attachment and we see that there's a few different categories for how attachment gets talked about.

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We'll probably there's lots of different ways we can like jump into this, but I think it'd be good to start with just the premise that there's two types of attachment. There's secure attachment and insecure attachment. And do you have that quote for secure attachment? So I relate rebellion. I kind of joke that we are just kind of packaging because we take a lot of

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information that other experts have.

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Oh, you do what all speakers

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do. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone else. We're like being robots was thousand years ago. There's nothing new under the sun. So exactly

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speaker out there that we're making a push for. So yeah, you guys

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in packages. Okay? And so attach because as humans, we're relational beings like we need relationship to survive.

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And so attachment is how we do relationships essentially good or bad, correct? Okay. Yes. Yeah.

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So secure attachment is when there's rupture in the relationship. So some type of like wounding or disconnection has happened in a relationship, but the securely attached person knows that repair is inevitable and will be here shortly.

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So there's confidence in the relationship. They know that hey, like you hurt my feelings, but I know we're going to be able to get through this. So there's just this confidence of security in the nature of that relationship. So there

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Yes, secure.

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Yeah. We're going to have conflict

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Yes. It's the bodily based expectation, that connection is inevitable,

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that there will be repair regardless of and that there's we don't have to sacrifice either of our identities

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for that.

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That's huge, isn't it? So big. So

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but then it's actually not

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Totally. Me, I'm

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Really. You are. You are. And so then you also

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have insecure attachment.

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So you've got secure attachment. And then there's three types of insecure attachment. Okay,

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Yeah, so insecure attachment. There's anxious attachment, which is where someone is kind of like cleaning the relationship. When things are not okay, they start to move closer to make sure to manage, like, okay, how do we resolve this in a way that might make someone feel like, Oh wow, this is a lot different.

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Like you're not okay and therefore I'm not okay either. And so I have to try to fix this type of it, you know, the flip of that would be avoidant attachment, which is

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there's issues. So I got to get space until kind

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Yeah, yeah. So down space, distance,

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lack of acknowledgment, just ignoring all of that fit into void And you're not okay but I'm okay and I can't not I can't be not okay with you.

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So I got to like, distance myself. And then there's a mix of those too. And disorganized attachment. Yeah. So that's where, like, you may have felt from someone in the past, like kind of this weird push pull energy or. Yeah, it can present in all sorts of different ways, but it really is a combination of those things, which usually is aggressiveness in it, which is usually a result of compound trauma

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that's what it was, a disorganized attachment, disorganized damage.

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So there's

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Yeah. Yeah. And that

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They don't know how to do. They don't know because they've got all these attachment wounds. They don't know how to bond with someone securely and feel safe in that relationship. So they're constantly feeling unsafe.

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Sometimes they want to like clean and then sometimes they want to run away. And it's like this weird back and forth that the other person, it's just really difficult to know how to navigate that.

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So yeah, yeah.

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the Insecure. Insecure, Yeah,

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you may go like, I'm

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totally.

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And that's right.

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No one is perfectly securely attached in all their relationships. And we can have different attachment styles in different relationships as well to you. And so we may like feel super secure in this one and then like super avoidant in this other way. Holidays are a great time to see, you know, the attachment stuff come up.

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So if I send you 12

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text when you leave here today, you're like, Was it good today? Yeah. What did you think? When do we need to reduce it to like, Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

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Yeah, really good question. And so

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right, right.

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It is very much like our attachment is so we've have shown that it's solidified from the by the time your two starts, by the time you're around six months old. And so literally before you even have a concept for anything, your attachment is for the most part, like there. And then early childhood solidifies those attachment narratives.

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And then from there we just see attachment

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, or like our attachment map. And so we can think of attachment also like a map where you like on our way here, I like just pulled up where we're at and hit go and it like give me a route.

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There's a couple of different options and our attachment we can even think of it as a map that's guiding us to point that safety because our brain is like an anticipation machine. It's always trying to anticipate, okay, what is going to happen in these next situations? How do I find safety security in these things? And everyone has a totally different map based on your relationship with your primary caregiver in those

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formative years.

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And

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really connected with mom? Really connected with mom? So that was another good question. That

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was a really good series. It's it's

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both. It is. But babies really, they're they theorize that babies can only attach with one person in their infancy. And so that's usually mom, mom's or life giver.

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We were just second hand.

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So let's look at Mother's Day and there's a different way. More effort on Mother's Day, you know. So I've been joking about that. But

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Mm hmm.

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Yes. That's what your mom has a nine month head start, if you think about it, too. Like there is a connection that's happening.

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Yeah, that. Yeah, Well, and their baby's

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cells will actually stay in the mother for up to, like, multiple decades. And then if the mother's heart gets physically hurt, the cells rush to the heart to try to heal the heart. Are you kidding? Isn't that fascinating? So, like Shaman, so has all this, like, cells of all your kids? Kyle Yeah, in her.

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And I don't have a single cell. Not a single cell. No.

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No one that they're more attached. But doesn't that make sense? It's easier for a mother to attach

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to the child. Yeah, but the. The father has a utility of protection and providing. So you're

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is going to be

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things.

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But in and out, I heard one person say that there's a difference between like this is kind of attachment. It's kind of going off topic, but there's mothering and fathering and there's different roles. And so mothering is creating safety within the home. And that nurturing or the fathering is almost like bringing the world into the home and exposing the child to almost like the dangers of the world in a safe context and space.

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That's why dads are throwing their kids up in the air and moms are freaking

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out on the ground and dads

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are like doing these crazy things with their kids because they're exposing them to the world in a space that feels loving and safe and secure, where the mother is about that nurturing and that like almost holding. And so it's two different roles that the child needs.

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The child needs both of those roles from their biological parents. But that like attachment starts at infancy. So as humans, like we're Imago Day, we're made in the image of God and God as a triune God. He's in perfect relationship with himself, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And so part of our Imago Day is doing relationship with one another.

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And so we need that. That's hardwired into our biology and loneliness kills faster than nearly anything else in the world can more than air pollution, more than medical issues and smoking and all those things, right? Yeah. And the willingness kills.

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loneliness.

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Exactly. Like disconnection.

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So because it's the shame is the fear that we are somehow unworthy of the love and connection that we so desperately need. And so is that break of connection. And so as babies, we enter the world looking for that connection, looking for someone to see us, and that's usually the mother. And so the mother provides all of that.

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And so the mother a tuning to her baby's needs, being able to say, Hey, the baby's crying and it is hungry, and so I'm not going to feed baby or baby got scared and I'm going to comfort baby or baby is tired. So now I'm going to soothe baby. Like all of that is what they call attunement. And a mother being able to attune to her child develops and establishes secure attachment because a child knows I am safe with mom.

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Mom is going to take care of me. Now, it doesn't mean that a mother has to do that perfectly. Like the best moms that attune the best usually get it right about 50% of the time.

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And that's for parenting in general. That's for parenting in general. So that's not like it's not like, oh, my gosh, like I don't want

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my kid me to be now.

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Like, yeah, you know,

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conversation this

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mistakes,

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but you're still us.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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right now. I'm

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kids never will be able to ask for

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But because secure attachment, it knows that ruptures are going to happen and it's inevitable that it's going to be repaired.

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So secure attachment doesn't mean that there's not ruptures in the relationship. It means that repair is inevitable, that eventually we'll be able to attune with one another and reconcile that. And so it's not a perfect relationship because none of us are perfect, but it's that security that like, hey, we can both figure this out and we're going to make it still.

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do this podcast and talk about, it's

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childhood,

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Yes, but

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It's not what choices we want to make

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Yeah. So and that goes back to

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I think that good indicates morals and I'm not sure every choice is a moral choice.

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Okay. That makes I see what you're saying. And someone may want to

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Yeah. It's

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like a

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Yeah,

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Or think about, like, a marriage, right? Like, think about you get into a fight with your spouse and you're like, I want to go to them and apologize.

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Now, that might be the right choice to make in that situation in the sense of like, that's going to help create repair. But let's say you've got some attachment wounds and there let's say there's some dynamics in the relationship that brings up insecurity. I want to apologize, but I'm scared that they're still mad at me and they're going to like stonewall me or they're not going to receive it.

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And in my mind, the story I'm telling myself about that is that I'm not worth connecting with and I'm unlovable and they don't like me. Now, all of that can go back to childhood, but that's in a marriage. And so we just remember the narrative. We brought that with us. That's implicit memory, like Brandon was kind of describing.

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Those are the maps. And so it's not necessarily a moral choice of going and saying, I'm sorry, it's that I want connection, it's that connection build that we're there that's inherently vulnerable. And so if we if if that vulnerability can't be held sacred and that's not met with empathy and compassion and vulnerability back, it's a very scary space.

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And so every time we step into an attachment bid,

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we're putting ourselves out there. And that's that's just very scary thing. So

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Yeah, avoidant, anxious and just okay

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because you were just

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any relationship or we'll say a marriage right

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could be a boss, an employee, a parent. Okay. But

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That probably fall into like avoidant. Avoidant. I think how you defined it. Yeah it could be. Yeah. And that's where like

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they can present so many different ways like based on what those wounds are.

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What would be

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you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was

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Go with that. Oh, I don't know if I was actually on that job. Now, you better write

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something like

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based on where those are that we have in our heads.

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Like it can the different ways just from might there be processing? Other people process their trauma in different ways, like the stories that we feel in our bodies that sort of present in this context? Um it's there's a lot of yeah,

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I think an example for what you were kind of asking is the avoid the avoidant is like the runner and the anxious is the pursuer.

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So in that kind of situation, like, like, let's say the one person wants to apologize and so they go, they like knock on the door. It's like, hey, hi. And like, can we talk? Can we talk? And they're like, Nope, don't want to talk to want to engage. Well, then 20 minutes later, come back. Hey, can we talk?

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And now and they do that over and over and over again. They feel so flustered that they can't reconcile this. And the other person is feeling so almost like kind of bogged down or like suffocated that they keep running. So that's usually the dance that we're playing. Usually we're attracted to someone different than us. And so oftentimes you're going to see an avoidant with an anxious, anxious or then avoidant, you know.

Unknown

So those are kind of the dynamics and how that can kind of look. You usually have one person that's more of the pursuer and one person that's more of the. And there is there's different like just temperaments too. Some people are like, No, I need to take a walk and really think through this and talk to someone about some ideas off of.

Unknown

And that's a healthy way of navigating that versus saying, No, you're not safe and you're too much right now and so I need to distance myself from you so the actions can look the same. But the narrative in the story is different that determines the health of that specific situation, if that makes sense.

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your choice,

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totally and that's been a kind of mentioned this term implicit memory and it's

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there's two types of memory clinically there's explicit implicit explicit is like giving directions to someone, hey, turn left at the circle page and right there, implicit is more of like muscle memory. Like many people in military or sports. Like, have I just wrestled a friend last weekend and through his but on the actually he's doing all of the wrestling

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stuff so

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literally it was so funny because yeah,

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for both of us it just was like instinct.

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And he actually pick something up that I like to do all the time that I didn't even realize I did. And I was like, Oh, this is so crazy. But it's just like, it just happens and, oh,

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okay, yeah, I owed him. He got

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I let him think he was winning and then it did look like,

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yeah, yeah.

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But your implicit, implicit memory took over.

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It's like the knee jerk reaction. Yeah, we're just going to respond and we can even think of it like in the context of relationships, like when you're driving, something comes into the road. There's on one side, a woman with a baby and then three old ladies shopping on the other side, and you have to turn in one direction.

Unknown

What You do in that moment. Mm. You, you're not making a decision, you're just reacting. You don't know what you would do in that situation. You don't know how to like all of this stuff. It's just a reaction. And so many times in our relationships based on these narratives, stories, attachment, there's an implicit memory that we have of how we navigate relationships, where we're not making a choice, we're not making a decision.

Unknown

It's just a reaction that's happening. And unless we have awareness around our story, around where we've come from, around what our even feelings are, it's really hard to navigate in ways to get the outcomes that we want or even make the choices that we want to.

Unknown

a couple of months

Unknown

but

Unknown

Yes, Yes.

Unknown

and those

Unknown

That's the good news, right? Absolutely. So PTSD is implicit memory.

Unknown

And so have we ever been in a situation or even any type of trigger is an implicit memory. So if we've ever been in a situation where someone says something or there's a smell or there is a lighting, something like that, and we can have a positive or negative response to it, we instantly like our stomach drops, our palms start sweating like we've got a lot of heat, our heart starts beating and we're like, Why did that happen?

Unknown

We're not navigating that

Unknown

It's our bodies instantly reacting. And emotion comes with that narratives and stories about ourselves, other people, how the world works all comes with that as well. Now, that can be a positive thing. Like we might start to like, feel really elated and we get a smile on her face for some reason.

Unknown

And there's like a lot of like positivity with that. We're like, Oh, it was that. That happens all the time, every single day, every situation that we're in. And so what implicit memory does is it's trying to predict the future by remembering something from the past that was familiar. So anything something that any time something feels familiar to us, our our brain and our body instantly goes to the last time or the first time or the most important time.

Unknown

It felt that before, and it's instantly putting our brains, our bodies, our emotions all back in that space so that we can try to survive that.

Unknown

Yes.

Unknown

which

Unknown

exactly what that's

Unknown

Oh, that's those are nanoseconds. And that's not something that happening isn't good or bad. It just is. And so our choice in that is what are we going to do with that? How are we going to handle that situation? And many times it takes a lot of therapy, it takes a lot of introspection and self-awareness and healing in order to be able to slow it down enough to recognize in the moment what's happening and then start to change the narrative.

Unknown

But that has to happen in the context of relationship that cannot happen in isolation,

Unknown

and relationships that hurt you or

Unknown

how do you heal that? Yeah. So shame is a social wound.

Unknown

Shame happens because a relationship has been broken and now we feel we're somehow less than unworthy, unloved in one way or another.

Unknown

But because it's a social wound, it has to be healed socially. It has to be healed with other people as well, which is Imago Day.

Unknown

and we

Unknown

yeah, which so babies, why attachment so significant and why they look at childhood so much with that is because a child that's dependent on mom and dad for survival, for food, for shelter, for water, for the basic necessities in life. If they feel unloved, that is life or death to a child, because they literally cannot survive outside of that.

Unknown

And so because it's life or death to a child that that wiring in us never goes away. And so when we feel unloved by someone, if we feel rejected by someone that's life or death,

Unknown

it's neurological, too. So

Unknown

Like, sometimes

Unknown

this.

Unknown

The reason you don't have that, these are just but

Unknown

Yes,

Unknown

Yes, yes, yes. So in that's words.

Unknown

It's like, did your parents navigate of like, hey, you can't have a popsicle.

Unknown

And there's still like a connection and like, there's still relationship happening. Or is it, Hey, you can't have a popsicle ice.

Unknown

Yes. And now I'm mad at you because you keep asking. I'm going to stonewall you as your

Unknown

parents. Like, that's life. And that is

Unknown

Well, now, as a kid, you have to learn how to navigate that.

Unknown

What am I going to do with that? How am I going to survive this situation? Because what's fascinating is that when we feel emotional pain, specifically rejection or betrayal, the part of the brain that registers, that is the same part of physical pain. And so the brain doesn't know the difference between the emotional pain versus the physical pain.

Unknown

Really? Yes. And that's why it so, so much life or death for us. That's why when we're so in conflict, I guess huge.

Unknown

emotionally. Yeah, It's the same part

Unknown

the same part of the brain dealing with that. Well, think about it. Like, isn't it insane how

Unknown

relational turmoil can get someone to have a physical response of tears like they're physically. Yeah, they're changing based on just emotions. Just emotions. Now, the cool part about this is that us as humans, we can help regulate that in one another, and that's how that healing happens.

Unknown

So we enter into another story and space and we can hold that space for one another and we can share our story and they can reflect that back to us in a in a way that feels loving and safe and accepting where we feel we belong. It can change the narrative and rewire the brain,

Unknown

which is like so cool.

Unknown

Also the gospel, which is fascinating.

Unknown

And it's we have that because of mirror neurons in our brains. And so, like when a mom is comforting a baby, when the baby's crying, let's say it's like learning how to how to walk and falls down and hits their head on like the side of the table and the baby in the mom is like shushing it and, you know, like trying to comfort it because the mom the mom has mirror neurons.

Unknown

So the mom's able to recognize, oh, babies hurt, babies crying. Baby needs comfort instantly goes into comfort. So the moms are tuning to that baby. The baby also has mirror neurons. And so now the baby is learning how to comfort itself. While the mom's comforting him or her. So the baby's now learning, Oh, I can be safe and okay and I can learn how to calm myself down.

Unknown

And so that's oftentimes what's in the spikes. And like the development of kids is when we get like those really big emotions, but it's when the brain is just firing in like new ways. And so the the parent being able to attune and redirect the child and then teach them how do we handle these situations, how do we negotiate our life in this way?

Unknown

It's teaching the child how to self-soothe, which is super, super cool. We can do that as adults. I was just going to say that. So you're saying you do

Unknown

all the time when

Unknown

Yes. When we

Unknown

Yeah. You're saying and it's to the point that the the left and right side of our brain.

Unknown

So the

Unknown

left part is the more logical side and the one that's interpreting like our words in everything. And in this conversation as we're talking, what's crazy is the emotional side of our brain. Those mirror neurons are able to see what's happening. Like you're able to see what's happening on my face and your face is able to respond to that before the left side of your brain is able to interpret the words that I'm saying

Unknown

and the meaning of those words.

Unknown

That's like how fast fascinating is human? It's so crazy and so and with

Unknown

like that. So I'm

Unknown

understand.

Unknown

Yeah,

Unknown

Like

Unknown

there's a that emotional those mirror neurons and so babies I grew up with a primary caregiver that's able to a tune to them significantly in those ways. So you show that their neural networks from their prefrontal cortex to their amygdala are thick.

Unknown

They've got like robust pathways for their prefrontal cortex, which again, no other animal has. One of those just humans do. That's the part of our brain that's responsible for using insight to think in the future. We have pros and cons, empathy, have empathy and compassion. Regulate everything. Someone is set up to be able to use their brain to actually think in process relationally when they were attuned to you.

Unknown

The opposite is also true when that to me it wasn't there. Someone that doesn't have those neural pathways may find in the future that when conflict comes up with a significant relationship, they find themselves going very much that like fight or flight or free space very quickly, because there's not as many pathways in their brain, which is but again, to the point of what brain was like, man, what you're saying to power is that what's so hopeful is that as adults we can learn all these pieces of even the narrative story, all these things we can as adults still repair and ourself, and so invite safe people into our lives to take these steps to

Unknown

become like, have a healthy brain and have a healthy approach and healthy attachment. And and all of that's called integration. So when our prefrontal cortex and our limbic system are talking like that and our prefrontal cortex is able to regulate our emotions in that way, slow things down enough to be able to respond, to make the choices we actually want to make in a situation that's an integrated brain.

Unknown

So in all parts of our brain are talking and working together the way they're supposed to be. So Jesus, being a perfect human, had a perfectly integrated brain. And as humans, because of our life experiences, we get disintegration in various parts for different reasons. And so the healing process is we becoming fully integrated within ourselves and with other people.

Unknown

Yeah,

Unknown

is what it is. And what you have

Unknown

but it is what it is because that's

Unknown

how I grew up or whatever. But

Unknown

Right? That's exactly.

Unknown

And it's not an is what it is of like, oh, well, this is how I am and it's just going to be is yeah, this is where I am.

Unknown

And there's no shame in that. I'm not less than because I left that forward and so let's figure out what does, what does my healing look like in this?

Unknown

but

Unknown

when,

Unknown

real

Unknown

Yeah,

Unknown

what are some Definitely, which is really I think even with what you're saying to you, one thing that I've noticed

Unknown

first thought actually is therapy. Therapy is just someone helping you, guide you through the skill sets of paying attention and having curiosity, being able to help you look at things and dig out a little bit.

Unknown

And I think therapies become much more popular over even the last five years. There's less of it, like a negative stigma on it and everything. But yeah, therapy is just having someone walk with you that's qualified to ask the questions and have a context and be a guide is so invaluable. And that's why therapy works, because they're attending to you as well.

Unknown

just that mirroring, they're helping a little bit. Yeah. And

Unknown

they'll help teach the ways to be curious. And so you even mentioned like being curious about your body and stuff. I know for me, like in my process, I've learned me when my job is the clench and like if my fist or it's getting tired, my forearms, my calves, that's the sign for me.

Unknown

Like, okay, I need to take a step back because my prefrontal cortex is about to go offline

Unknown

and I'm going to go like blaming women. Yeah, yeah. And so that's good. Like

Unknown

now I know and have that awareness of okay, like because your body will respond before catching

Unknown

happens. And so it's tuning into your body first and your body is going to tell you all what's happening and then what your emotions.

Unknown

You

Unknown

of what it was.

Unknown

can feel

Unknown

I didn't

Unknown

but this there's something I should

Unknown

Let's Fascinating is 90% of your serotonin which is like the feel good bonding happy chemical is stored in your gut. So that's why we get gut feelings. That's why our stomach clenches, when something like is upsetting us.

Unknown

And so we've got all these neurotransmitters that are actually housed in different parts of our body that then send responses up to our brain and back and forth, which assassinate. So the tuning into the body is huge. Okay. Yeah.

Unknown

I just told you,

Unknown

you know, I would say, Yeah, I was kind of describing that you just

Unknown

put.

Unknown

Yeah, you talked about therapy.

Unknown

I was going to say also just community is so massive. I think I think I first read this in the book Wild at Heart, but asking for a book. I love it very much.

Unknown

Yeah. He's actually spearheading a lot of these conversations in the church right now, too. So he's a Christian. ELDRIDGE Yeah, yeah, yeah. He I remember that book talked about

Unknown

asking the people in your life what they actually think about. You know, just ask the people that you actually do life. Hey, what do you actually think about me? What do you like?

Unknown

Do you see blind spots? Like what do you see as my blind spots? Probably the better question. What do you see as strengths? What do you see as things that are maybe like needing to grow in? And I think self-awareness can only happen in the context of community. It is impossible for self-awareness to happen in isolation.

Unknown

I mean,

Unknown

can't see me smile. But it

Unknown

Yeah, it is. And that's where like again, like loneliness just kills on so many different fronts. And that's why it's so easy in isolation to get wrapped up in these narratives where when we're actually talking through these narratives and bouncing things off people, it's so much easier to get grounded back in reality.

Unknown

And so, yeah, having community and creating a space of openness and vulnerability is I think, a huge way to because part of the hope in the strategy, in the hope of re doing our attachment and everything we're talking about is this idea of re parenting ourselves. And that's the really exciting part is that we can. So you talked about memories of being like in a file cabinet and know them up.

Unknown

What's really, really interesting is that memories like that file is not static, it's not written in stone. And so we can literally go back and it's not that we are lying to ourselves about what happened or trying to change the details, but it's how we remember those things that changes. So thinking back to childhood and like, Oh my, in the situation of you could say like the situation of abuse where like I was alone or like trapped in like didn't have any way out or like I was alone in this situation, being able to have someone come in and repair that with you.

Unknown

What are some of the truths or affirmations in that space that you can remember it differently along? And that's like,

Unknown

that's in the context of a bigger process of I

Unknown

went to a really intense example there, but that's in context of like

Unknown

holding space for the negative emotions that go along with that story as well. You know, you

Unknown

you heard this.

Unknown

like, well, I

Unknown

You know,

Unknown

That's why they

Unknown

as

Unknown

Exactly. Which, by the way for the big,

Unknown

now, there's a lot of parents. There's a wounded

Unknown

Yeah, right. Yeah, Yeah.

Unknown

this.

Unknown

Get rid of that whole image.

Unknown

Well, you can think of it in different language, too. Sometimes we're like, Oh, re parenting my, like, inner child. That feels like, really, like, weird. It's like these are triggers, these are narratives. And we can managers, we got sort of managers.

Unknown

Yeah, I it's I've watched actually if you like reactions to David Goggins online and from therapists and some of them were like, yeah, this guy's a little like out there. I'm like, Stay hard and like all this stuff. But the listening to him talk more, he is literally doing this exact same process. He talks about it in a super manly way where he's like cussing a lot and like, Man, I'm getting in there and going to these dark places, like in the basement where like nothing is good, like it's just total darkness and depravity.

Unknown

And I'm taking notes in there. I'm like learning what's happening in this space so that when I come out, I know how to stay grounded and like he's doing. So

Unknown

is a

Unknown

also I mean, we've all the F-bombs that he used a lot of.

Unknown

Yeah, but he would

Unknown

the little things like,

Unknown

and myself and I could not work anything,

Unknown

I could do that, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he's

Unknown

Yeah. Maybe in a

Unknown

Right? Right. And like, his story, like

Unknown

where he came from, everything is super intense. And so I think is just so inspiring and hopeful to me that men, it doesn't matter where you came from, just this concept of being able to look at the narratives and as an adult step in and be what you needed for yourself when you were younger is so invaluable.

Unknown

And that's what helps rewrite that file. Cabinet of Memories in Our Brains, which actually changes our future. Because how we remember the past directly affects how we make decisions and the future choices we do choices and so many of our relational things that we're responding to, like Brian was describing earlier too, is we're reacting not to the situation in front of us, but to the shadows of our past.

Unknown

Exactly. Well, and so think of that in the context of God always saying, remember, remember, remember, remember when you read all throughout the Old Testament, it's like it's not just remember who I am, but remember you came out of Egypt, you were enslaved and we took you through the Red Sea. And then I protected you in the wilderness.

Unknown

And your clothes didn't, like, rip and your shoes didn't tear. And then you got into the Promised Land and remember that. And it's all about remembering the story of the Exodus over and over and over again. And what does Israel keep doing? They forget that narrative and they go back to the narrative.

Unknown

Well, ish.

Unknown

Right. Like it's going back to a shame based narrative. It's going back to survival narrative Olympics, this narrative of we had it better in Egypt. We were slaves, but at least we knew we got food. We were this, but at least that. And it but it's a comfort level so our nervous systems can actually become attuned to be more comfortable in on health than health because it's familiar.

Unknown

And so that's what when we are familiar with wounding or on health or toxicity or like whatever it is, it's more familiar to do that and live that way. And so they had been slaves for 400 years in Egypt. That's all they knew. And we know that there's generational trauma too, and epigenetics and how that gets passed genetically from one generation to the next.

Unknown

And so they were more comfortable in that space than in freedom and love and comfort and all the things and the promised land, all the things that God is providing for them. And so then it's got it constantly saying, no. Remember, like we're rewriting the story of the nation of Israel constantly. Wow,

Unknown

whenever we get

Unknown

end up having conversations like this, right?

Unknown

It's

Unknown

on. You got wind it

Unknown

Oh, yes, I know, I know everything.

Unknown

Okay, So what I love by the way, I knew

Unknown

this for. Well, we're going to wait another second. Yeah, So.

Unknown

Yeah. So

Unknown

what I love about this and when I first learned about attachment and trauma and how it affects our brains and relationships, it is completely the gospel. And so it's interesting because I've, I've wrestled with just like the theology surrounding suffering for over a decade and just like a really intense way and trying to navigate my story and figure out what that means and questioning God and his character and just all the things.

Unknown

And when it click, because everyone is like, Oh, well, the cross is proof that God enters into our pain and our story. And I was like, That just doesn't feel like it's enough for me. Which kind of sounds sacrilegious as a Christian to say, but I was just like, Yeah, cool. Like he died on the cross, like he was whipped and all those things.

Unknown

And that lasted like a few hours. Like, cool that he can identify with my pain, but like, I need, I felt like I needed more than that. And it's when someone put Jesus in the context of not just his divinity, but his humanity. And so Jesus was fully human. Jesus knew what it was like to experience disappointment and wounding in his relationships.

Unknown

He knew what it was like to get triggered in his body and have to regulate whatever was coming up for him. And he did all of that in the context of relationship and Jesus being embodied. Jesus being God in the flesh knows how to directly attune to us like Jesus had mirror neurons, like Jesus, like is and was human like Jesus has.

Unknown

His is the embodiment of the gospel and of it. And so to think that like, oh, in each of my experiences, Jesus brain was doing the same thing that my brain was. He knows exactly what that feels like. And so it's not just like we have a high priest that can identify.

Unknown

With us or have compassion with us and relate to us in the sense of, yeah, he experienced temptation, he experienced these things, but like he he experienced what it meant to be a baby and needed a mom to a tune to him. Yeah. Like he knew what it was like to have friend wounds. Like he knew as, like, to be rejected and have that pain not just in his body on the cross, but in his brain and in his emotions and in his heart.

Unknown

And so that was just like that. Just like opened up a whole different level of Jesus in our suffering. And I think even like, he knew what it meant to be in an awkward situation. Yeah, like he knew what it meant. So like, we were there's a, we have a resource list for all the resources that we pull, the stuff from that will be in the notes for the show.

Unknown

But one of the books that talks about how, like Jesus knows what it means to have diarrhea at one point, like Jesus had a full sexuality. Mm hmm.

Unknown

that, you know, limits on and and yet. So I have to say, though, because you bring up

Unknown

it's like this is but but we

Unknown

We

Unknown

lose the He will

Unknown

heal human experience.

Unknown

That's

Unknown

Do you think of it spiritual? Yeah. And yes, true. But also very human. Flesh and sweat and tears and blood and yeah, all of it.

Unknown

You know, it

Unknown

yes. So

Unknown

know.

Unknown

lived that perfect.

Unknown

Mm hmm.

Unknown

not worried anymore. He really was sweating

Unknown

and

Unknown

That's. Yeah. And it's. Yeah, there's just a different

Unknown

Jesus than is typically described in Jesus. Probably He didn't have I don't know, actually. I don't know. Let me know if this sounds too crazy. I don't know if Jesus had perfect detachment with the people around him. Like I think he did have perfectly secure attachment with God, the father.

Unknown

But

Unknown

there's probably things that came up where, like he maybe felt, but he had to

Unknown

Exactly. That's my point. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't on him. I think he had the narrative because because of

Unknown

God and because he was fully God, I'm fully man. I'm just trying to flesh out. But look at it.

Unknown

Yeah.

Unknown

No, but I think if we're going to attach

Unknown

yeah,

Unknown

healthy. So even if

Unknown

it.

Unknown

So he had to work

Unknown

mess with,

Unknown

12. We'll just have 15, 20, 20. But I went through childhood though like,

Unknown

even, like, gosh, everything we know in the Bible, like his whole childhood, he had a full adolescence, like thinking back to our childhood and how long that took. Like, it took just as long when I think Teenager Grace. Right. Like, there's a lot of relationships we want to repair and we've done our work in.

Unknown

And yet still, because they're not in that space to repair it can't be repaired. Like you look at his brothers and sisters that didn't believe in him. And like we're saying that he was crazy and trying to like hush them up and stuff. And yet Jesus was he had secure attachment. He was perfect in that way. And so then reconcile those things.

Unknown

And so I think it just shows grace on all sides. And then how much more when we are imperfect and we don't have a fully secure attachment with every single human in our life. And so, yeah, I think that diving into Jesus humanity and not trying to Sunday school that or trying to, I don't know like placate that smooth it over like that to me changes everything and it's it's cool because trauma everything we've talked about is a rupture in relationship and the cure to that is vulnerability, connection and relationship.

Unknown

And so the gospel being relational and not works based and not, oh, I have to do X, Y, Z to be good with God, but it's purely God saying, I love you and I want this relationship with you. It's I just don't. The more I learn about neuroscience and attachment and like all this stuff, the more I'm like, the Bible had it so freaking way.

Unknown

Like, how do you know this? Like, it's beyond anything else. Like,

Unknown

it's just so, yeah, so fascinating. So that was my ten minute love

Unknown

that we needed to

Unknown

say that. So well-said.

Unknown

Yeah. Yeah. So really rebellion on most all the social media.

Unknown

So Instagram, Facebooks are like rebellion, Twitter, Snapchat. We're like rebels. I think Tik Tok read like rebellion or like rebels. Yeah, check that. But we do have like Brendan mentioned like a PDF resource from like the books and podcasts and that to us and we can put it in our

Unknown

Yeah, yeah. So it's red light rebellion dot org slash resilience.

Unknown

Okay. And so then you can so free download and everything's hyperlinked so you can just click it and we are talking about today. Oh yes. Yeah, yeah man. Yeah. So outside of like thank you outside of like therapy and what we learn from therapy, like all of that is in all those books and those podcasts, we're just the packaging.

Unknown

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown

Well, let

Unknown

going into this.

Unknown

right? Yep.

Unknown

All right. So to troops in a lie, you're not going to stop me.

Unknown

Oh, well, all right. Okay. Who's going to pay for getting my arms? Yeah, How are you? Got

Unknown

to go first. Yeah.

Unknown

so I've performed at the largest outdoor event in the world. I've never been offered drugs, and my life aspiration was to be a hobo in Portland.

Unknown

Yeah, I was offered drugs.

Unknown

Oh, no, wait. Did you say. Did you think that was the truth? Or like, Yeah, that's the truth. That's the truth. Yeah. So, yeah, that was my life. So you got that right.

Unknown

I said, I've never been offered drugs. Yeah. And I said you had to do it. Yes. Yes. So you got that?

Unknown

That's what you said. That was her life. That was my life. Yeah. So she was lying about it? Yes. Okay. Yeah. So you got that right? Yeah.

Unknown

Unknown

I was 26 and I just said No,

Unknown

just

Unknown

okay, there's proof. She was really it's actually was like someone just offered me drugs and I just said, Isn't that easy? Yeah.

Unknown

Because, you know, parents always, like, hype you up like this is going to happen. You're going to be peer pressure in high school. Never did. And I'm 26.

Unknown

I'm finally like,

Unknown

yeah, sorry.

Unknown

And my opportunity to just say no. Yeah. All right. So two years in a lie. When I gauge my years with nails

Unknown

to my grandma taught me how to break pencils with my butt cheeks In three, I got arrested for driving on the sidewalk and running into a cone that was hiding the rest of a light pole that had already been knocked down and told my car,

Unknown

truth.

Unknown

Which one? The

Unknown

We know

Unknown

That didn't happen.

Unknown

Well, actually, the lie is that I got arrested. It actually did. I didn't even get arrested because I know you know that that's.

Unknown

Yeah, you know, that's characteristic. I've got a lot of stories like that.

Unknown

So I figured right away that was

Unknown

I just figured, you know,

Unknown

every good lie has a lot of truth to it. True.

Unknown

That's true. Well, well done. All

Unknown

Thank you. Yeah. Fascinating stuff so much. Again, I want

Unknown

So thank you so much.

Unknown

There's so much that I could say about that episode,

Unknown

but all I can say is go to the description and the show notes and the PDF that Brandon and Brianna talked about will be there, and they have links to all of the things that they were talking about, about the complexity of the human brain

Unknown

we would love to hear from you. So

Unknown

comment below or you can email us at info at no gray areas dot com

Unknown

like follow and subscribe and share. No gray areas