Transcripts
Hey everyone and welcome back to
Speaker:another episode of Demand Gen Chat.
Speaker:I'm your host Kaylee Edmondson and today
Speaker:we are joined with Randy Frisch, who
Speaker:is the co-founder and CMO at Uberflip.
Speaker:Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker:Absolutely Kaylee, I'm,
Speaker:I'm excited to be here.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:So I want to just dive right in.
Speaker:I did obviously a little
Speaker:bit of research on you.
Speaker:I've read your book, um, checked out your
Speaker:LinkedIn profile, things of that nature.
Speaker:And I'm super curious to hear
Speaker:about your journey, um, from being
Speaker:a marketing manager at Rubbermaid
Speaker:to a co-founder and CMO of such an
Speaker:established company, such as Uberflip.
Speaker:So I know a little bit about
Speaker:the backstory of Uberflip.
Speaker:It started as Flipbook, um, and has
Speaker:evolved into what we know and love
Speaker:today as Uberflip, but I just feel like
Speaker:there's a gap for me there, and I would
Speaker:love for you to fill in the blanks
Speaker:for, um, kind of how you got there.
Speaker:Yeah, well, I haven't been asked this one
Speaker:for a bit because my, my past, my past
Speaker:is like so disconnected that people are
Speaker:like, I'm not even going to go there.
Speaker:Uh, but I, I mean, yeah, the short answer
Speaker:of this is I love marketing and, and
Speaker:coming out of university, undergrad,
Speaker:that's all I wanted to do is do marketing.
Speaker:So the, the job that I found at
Speaker:the time was a big company, I
Speaker:didn't know any better, and it
Speaker:was a great learning experience.
Speaker:I did a bit, a bit of sales, did a bit
Speaker:of marketing in the three years there.
Speaker:Uh, it was more consumer-based, uh,
Speaker:which, to be honest, when I was younger,
Speaker:I wanted to do Super Bowl commercials,
Speaker:so that felt like the right play.
Speaker:Uh, and then, in between that experience,
Speaker:and co-founding a, uh, successful
Speaker:tech company, very luckily, you know,
Speaker:I, I was in and out of different
Speaker:management rules and the funny thing
Speaker:is, again, back to the theme, I always
Speaker:navigated to the marketing stuff.
Speaker:I ran a company and like, whenever I
Speaker:could, I was focused on the marketing.
Speaker:Uh, I went into my MBA, I, I rolled
Speaker:up, enrolled for all these finance
Speaker:courses, thinking like, that's what
Speaker:I got to do, and I dropped them all
Speaker:after the first semester and went
Speaker:heavy again on more marketing courses.
Speaker:Uh, you know, it, it's just something
Speaker:I always have enjoyed and, and
Speaker:thinking about the buyer, I think
Speaker:it's the best way to create success,
Speaker:is having a united message that
Speaker:the entire organization buys into.
Speaker:That to me is how you get to revenue.
Speaker:And, you know, it's not to say that
Speaker:it's all on the marketer, but it's
Speaker:the marketing that pulses through
Speaker:that organization that excites me.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:And so stepping into Uberflip, it started
Speaker:as, for people who might not know, it
Speaker:started as Flipbook, right, and very
Speaker:quickly evolved into something that is
Speaker:much greater and much closer to what
Speaker:we know the product to look like today.
Speaker:What was that transition like?
Speaker:Was it feedback from your
Speaker:market that made you shift your
Speaker:strategy and evolve your product?
Speaker:Um, was it just con-
Speaker:conceptualized from the beginning?
Speaker:You knew you wanted it to be
Speaker:more like Uberflip, evolve
Speaker:more content types, et cetera.
Speaker:Like what did that evolution look like?
Speaker:Yeah, sure, it's...
Speaker:I mean, there's so many, you know, turns
Speaker:along the way is best way to put it.
Speaker:I don't want to use the word pivot
Speaker:because we weren't necessarily
Speaker:pivoting, as you always hear
Speaker:businesses talk about, we had a pivot.
Speaker:Uh, it was, as you said, it was
Speaker:listening a lot to customers.
Speaker:Uh, for those who don't know what a
Speaker:Flipbook is, we, we started off, we
Speaker:had a solution to take a PDF and make
Speaker:it into page flipping software, right?
Speaker:Like, there's a lot of technology like
Speaker:that, and, and we had probably the
Speaker:better tech out there, but we knew...
Speaker:We didn't know where PDFs
Speaker:were going first of all.
Speaker:Uh, I, I still don't know
Speaker:where PDFs are going.
Speaker:Uh, I don't even know if they will be
Speaker:noticed that anymore, but one of the
Speaker:things that happened at some point
Speaker:was we wanted to figure out how to do
Speaker:more for our customers, like you said.
Speaker:And we went to them and we said, listen,
Speaker:we're, we're creating these one-off
Speaker:documents for you that page flip,
Speaker:and it's a better online experience,
Speaker:but like what would be better?
Speaker:And the feedback we got was like, we need
Speaker:a destination where they will all live.
Speaker:And we're like, okay, we can do that.
Speaker:We'll just grab all the links
Speaker:and, you know, little thumbnail
Speaker:images and we'll make a homepage.
Speaker:And they're like, okay, great.
Speaker:That's awesome.
Speaker:But could you also put some
Speaker:of our latest videos there?
Speaker:And so rather blog posts?
Speaker:So the funny thing is we look
Speaker:at like early V1 of Uberflip.
Speaker:It never launched, but like wire frame.
Speaker:The idea was that we had a PDF in the
Speaker:middle of this page, surrounded by these
Speaker:little widgets of your other content.
Speaker:And we stared at it for like weeks
Speaker:and realized, okay, wait, we're
Speaker:too focused on what we do now.
Speaker:What our customers were really
Speaker:saying at the time was they had a
Speaker:problem centralizing all content.
Speaker:You know, PDFs were just one format.
Speaker:They couldn't get their
Speaker:blogs in the right place.
Speaker:They couldn't surface the
Speaker:right videos in the moment.
Speaker:They had to send someone to like
Speaker:YouTube to go watch their video.
Speaker:Uh, and that was something that we
Speaker:realized, okay, well, maybe the PDF
Speaker:doesn't have to be in the center.
Speaker:We have to figure out what the buyer wants
Speaker:in the center and set it up that way.
Speaker:Yeah, no, I love it.
Speaker:It's definitely customer-led, right.
Speaker:Um, and, and I think a lot of companies
Speaker:are struggling with listening to
Speaker:their customers, understanding their
Speaker:customers, getting that customer feedback,
Speaker:um, and closing that feedback loop.
Speaker:So I think it's just super interesting
Speaker:to hear how you guys went about
Speaker:it, um, and then actually ended
Speaker:up delivering a product that the
Speaker:customers were wanting all along.
Speaker:They were kind of conceptualizing a, a V3
Speaker:and you guys were still, you know, trying
Speaker:to solve a problem and kind of bridging
Speaker:that gap, I think is really powerful.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:As, as you put it and sometimes
Speaker:also you're in a current version,
Speaker:they're in a current version.
Speaker:You're not talking the same language
Speaker:because in some cases you don't
Speaker:even know what's possible yet.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Like, can you know in 15 years ago
Speaker:describing the Uber experience,
Speaker:like car riding experience, or
Speaker:could you imagine describing 20
Speaker:years ago signing a document online?
Speaker:Like these were things that we didn't
Speaker:even conceptualize because we had
Speaker:kind of, I guess, fallen back into
Speaker:these bad processes, bad approaches.
Speaker:And it's not that they're bad, it's just
Speaker:that we don't know what we're doing.
Speaker:It was crazy.
Speaker:I, I, I was talking to a, a marketer
Speaker:yesterday, I think it was, and
Speaker:they walked me through their...
Speaker:they're not a customer of ours, but
Speaker:they walked me through their website.
Speaker:They just wanted some feedback.
Speaker:And we found this link to a webinar
Speaker:on, on their, on their webpage.
Speaker:And you could watch this webinar,
Speaker:it wasn't gated or anything
Speaker:like that, which is fine.
Speaker:I know there's gate debates,
Speaker:we're not going to go there.
Speaker:Um, but you clicked on that, on
Speaker:that link to watch the webinar
Speaker:and it took you to YouTube, right?
Speaker:And they innocently did, did that because
Speaker:that's where the video lives and that's
Speaker:where they were going to take someone.
Speaker:And the funny thing is when I did this
Speaker:on my experience, I've got a 14 year
Speaker:old, he's obsessed with basketball
Speaker:and hijacks my YouTube account.
Speaker:So all of the videos being recommended
Speaker:next after this, you know, bank's
Speaker:website, uh, video was, you know,
Speaker:Michael Jordan game seven, you
Speaker:know, highlights, et cetera.
Speaker:Like it, it was a very different path than
Speaker:what they wanted that buyer to experience.
Speaker:They're not even thinking
Speaker:about those elements.
Speaker:So there's things that we need
Speaker:to challenge in terms of how we
Speaker:create a better buyer experience.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Go ahead.
Speaker:Let's go there.
Speaker:What are some of those things that
Speaker:are top of mind for you, other than...
Speaker:Like obviously, it takes...
Speaker:For me, it's very powerful
Speaker:to have a third set of eyes.
Speaker:Like we have, you know, two of us working
Speaker:really closely internally on things.
Speaker:Having a third set of eyes to take it
Speaker:like that perspective of like, hey, why
Speaker:am I being recommended Michael Jordan
Speaker:videos is something that sometimes you
Speaker:get so into the weeds of what it is you're
Speaker:doing that you're thinking so tactically.
Speaker:You're not taking a step back and thinking
Speaker:about the buying experience, the customer
Speaker:experience as a whole, um, or challenging
Speaker:anything that is like the status
Speaker:quo within your organization, right?
Speaker:Um, what are some of those things
Speaker:that are top of mind for you that
Speaker:should be challenged or change?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, you know, we just
Speaker:touched on sending someone to an
Speaker:experience that you can't control.
Speaker:I think the other one is, is we will
Speaker:often organize content the way we create
Speaker:content versus thinking about the buyer
Speaker:experience and what they're looking for.
Speaker:I mean, how many websites have you gone to
Speaker:where they've got this menu structure and,
Speaker:you know, one tab is all of our videos and
Speaker:the other is all of our eBooks, and the
Speaker:other is our infographics, if for whatever
Speaker:reason, we're still creating those.
Speaker:You know, like that's how
Speaker:we, we [crosstalk 00:08:16].
Speaker:Probably all of them.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Probably all of them, right?
Speaker:That's probably how they all
Speaker:are, but how many people go to a
Speaker:website and say, I really prefer
Speaker:to learn through infographics.
Speaker:Let me select this drop down.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:It, it's not how we work.
Speaker:We're like, I want you to solve my
Speaker:problem, and, and it's interesting
Speaker:when we, when we look at buyer
Speaker:trends and, and what the buyer wants
Speaker:versus what we sometimes associate.
Speaker:Like let's talk more about like
Speaker:personalization, because that's
Speaker:where, that's where we got to get to.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:But the, the idea with personalization
Speaker:is some people get lost, and it
Speaker:was interesting in last year we
Speaker:did this really interesting survey.
Speaker:We went out to a, a combination
Speaker:of buyers and marketers, and we
Speaker:asked them the same question and
Speaker:we got very different answers.
Speaker:So I'll give you one that I,
Speaker:that I found really interesting.
Speaker:We asked both marketers and
Speaker:buyers, what is personalization?
Speaker:Like, what does it mean to be,
Speaker:you know, to have personalization?
Speaker:The marketer, their answers were that
Speaker:they can deliver knowing your name,
Speaker:your company, and your job title.
Speaker:Like that, if they can do those,
Speaker:they feel like they've personalized.
Speaker:Those were the top three in that order.
Speaker:For the, for the buyer, their
Speaker:number one answer was the
Speaker:problem I'm looking to solve.
Speaker:Number two was, you know, my
Speaker:company, you know, my title.
Speaker:Uh, and, and, and there's
Speaker:this disconnect there, right?
Speaker:Like we're so focused on
Speaker:saying, I know your name.
Speaker:And don't get me wrong, like 10, 15
Speaker:years ago, when a big company knew
Speaker:my name, and like when blockbuster
Speaker:would email me and I'd be like,
Speaker:how did blockbuster get my name?
Speaker:This is so cool.
Speaker:Now we get that same email and we're
Speaker:like, how did I get on their list?
Speaker:Get me off this standard.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean this is [crosstalk 00:09:56].
Speaker:We know how that, we know how that works.
Speaker:That's not personalization anymore.
Speaker:What's personalization,
Speaker:ultimately to me, is the ability
Speaker:to deliver relevance, right?
Speaker:Like, and that is that
Speaker:ability to solve the problem.
Speaker:One of the, one of the examples
Speaker:I love, that's granted much more
Speaker:consumer based, like i- if everyone
Speaker:listening to this is, is...
Speaker:I mean, this is a podcast, you're
Speaker:probably already on your phone, right?
Speaker:So you take out your phone, open
Speaker:up Spotify, you could be listening
Speaker:on Spotify to this for all we know.
Speaker:And Spotify is home, don't stop listening
Speaker:to this, but Spotify is home, when
Speaker:you go there, is going to have these
Speaker:magical words made for you, right?
Speaker:And, and I love that, that terminology.
Speaker:Like, first of all, the idea that
Speaker:it's made for me is exciting.
Speaker:Now, don't get me wrong.
Speaker:Like Tom Petty's not creating a
Speaker:new track for me in there, right?
Speaker:And, and as marketers, we don't have
Speaker:to try and emulate by creating a ton
Speaker:of content for every buyer, we simply
Speaker:need to serve the relevant content,
Speaker:and then it feels personalized, right?
Speaker:And that's the key, it,
Speaker:it's that relevance.
Speaker:They know, I like Tom petty.
Speaker:So they're going to suggest Neil Young.
Speaker:I don't know, someone else.
Speaker:And, and, and the idea there is,
Speaker:is that relevance starts to build
Speaker:this relationship, this trust, this
Speaker:connection between you and in this
Speaker:case me, Spotify, but ultimately that's
Speaker:what we can accomplish as marketers.
Speaker:We just have to be there
Speaker:ultimately to solve their
Speaker:problems, not just know their name.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:And so some of these companies that we
Speaker:talk about often that are really doing
Speaker:great at personalization, Spotify,
Speaker:Netflix, Amazon, of course, are behemoths
Speaker:in the space that we're playing in.
Speaker:What are some companies that you could
Speaker:call out, or that are top of mind for
Speaker:you that are not Fortune 1000 companies
Speaker:that are doing a really great job at
Speaker:personalization in their marketing today?
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:So you make a good point, and, and
Speaker:let's, let's keep in mind again, what
Speaker:Spotify, what Netflix is doing, et cetera,
Speaker:they're also doing this for, for millions
Speaker:or hundreds of millions of people.
Speaker:So it's not really true personalization.
Speaker:This is they're delivering
Speaker:relevance, leveraging data.
Speaker:So if we, if we take this to demand
Speaker:gen marketing, if we take this
Speaker:to something like account-based
Speaker:marketing, there's different, there's
Speaker:different definitions of account based
Speaker:marketing, so they're different people.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's all those curate, who we
Speaker:will tell you that ABM is like
Speaker:choose 10 accounts and like really
Speaker:go after those in a one-to-one basis.
Speaker:And then there's others
Speaker:who say, you know what?
Speaker:ABM is really just like a mindset for
Speaker:marketing that we're going to do our best
Speaker:to deliver a more true, personalized,
Speaker:relevant experience to every buyer by
Speaker:knowing which buyers should buy from us.
Speaker:No matter which spectrum your at on
Speaker:there, it's a combination I think of
Speaker:using art and science to accomplish this.
Speaker:Now, if you believe that it's
Speaker:only 10 accounts, you are
Speaker:still going to use data, right?
Speaker:You're going to do a lot of research
Speaker:yourself, and you're going to
Speaker:use platforms that deliver your
Speaker:intent and, you know, understanding
Speaker:of what someone's looking for.
Speaker:But you will very much hand maneuver
Speaker:to say, these are the assets that
Speaker:I'm going to put in front of you.
Speaker:But we can still do this at scale
Speaker:for, you know, a thousand accounts.
Speaker:And to give you an example, Kaylee,
Speaker:I know, I know you asked for one.
Speaker:So there's a company that we've gotten to
Speaker:work with, a- and they are quite big of
Speaker:a company, but, uh, I'll give you smaller
Speaker:companies too after, uh, called Snowflake.
Speaker:A lot of people, you know,
Speaker:have heard the snowflake story.
Speaker:It is one of a kind like a snowflake.
Speaker:Uh, you know, they,
Speaker:they've seen huge success.
Speaker:And, but we started with them very
Speaker:early in their definition of ABM.
Speaker:There was a, a gentleman named
Speaker:Daniel there and he was actually
Speaker:tasked by his boss at the time.
Speaker:They said, okay, here are 12 accounts.
Speaker:Literally, you know, this was early ABM-
Speaker:Yap.
Speaker:... definitely.
Speaker:They said, we want you to go and, and we
Speaker:want you to think about how we deliver
Speaker:a destination, an end experience, where
Speaker:people will consume content and show that
Speaker:we can actually solve their problems.
Speaker:So what he did was he, you know, he first
Speaker:tried to hack this using webpages in CMSs.
Speaker:Didn't really cut it.
Speaker:We ended up partnering with them.
Speaker:And, and just on those first 12, he used
Speaker:a lot more, I would say art than science.
Speaker:Like-
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:... let's understand these accounts, let's,
Speaker:hand-pick the content that we have.
Speaker:Let's create content that fills
Speaker:gaps and let's deliver this.
Speaker:They did this.
Speaker:It took them a lot of time at the,
Speaker:at that point, but then he gets
Speaker:called and he's just a manager level.
Speaker:At the time he gets called into this
Speaker:executive meeting and they, they say
Speaker:like, listen, we don't know what's
Speaker:going on, but these accounts that
Speaker:we asked you to work on, way more
Speaker:engaged than anything we've ever seen.
Speaker:We want you to do whatever you're doing
Speaker:for these hundred accounts, right?
Speaker:Like just, just double.
Speaker:That's when we started talking to them,
Speaker:and and they actually helped us form
Speaker:part of what our product became there,
Speaker:which was this idea of a template
Speaker:so that we could deliver kind of
Speaker:like these Spotify platelets, right?
Speaker:Kind of logging in to Netflix and
Speaker:whatever's trending or whatever
Speaker:you watched last and what would be
Speaker:right for you at this stage, that
Speaker:same type of experience in terms of
Speaker:every channel that they link from.
Speaker:So whether they were sending an email,
Speaker:whether you're clicking on the signature
Speaker:in an email, whether you were, you
Speaker:had just booked an appointment with
Speaker:a, you know, great platform like,
Speaker:like yours, and now in between that
Speaker:stage, you wanna, you know, learn a
Speaker:little bit more before that demo call.
Speaker:All these, these instances where
Speaker:they had to direct someone, they were
Speaker:creating a more natural experience.
Speaker:Now, since then, I mean, we, we know
Speaker:Snowflake's been hugely successful.
Speaker:Last I had spoken to them, they'd
Speaker:done the, these one-to-one landing
Speaker:pages for over 2,500 accounts.
Speaker:Now, Snowflake's amazing company, but they
Speaker:also have a huge team, a lot of resources.
Speaker:They've continued to believe
Speaker:in a lot of the art, but as
Speaker:we'd imagined with Snowflake,
Speaker:they've got endless data points.
Speaker:Um, you know, they are a data company,
Speaker:so they're [crosstalk 00:15:58].
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Definitely works to their favor.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But, but another one, like I, I told
Speaker:you, there's others, a, a great marketer
Speaker:named Amber Bogie at, uh, at Degreed.
Speaker:And she doesn't have that same team size.
Speaker:She wanted to prove ABM and she
Speaker:wanted to do it in this modern day.
Speaker:So she went, I'm not going to say with
Speaker:less art because, you know, I think
Speaker:all marketing requires art but you
Speaker:know, a lot of the science side of
Speaker:it, and, and really using data through
Speaker:platforms that give us intent, you know.
Speaker:We're talking about the 6senses and
Speaker:the demand basis and the Bomboras
Speaker:of the world that help us understand
Speaker:what is someone looking for?
Speaker:And again, like we said earlier,
Speaker:how do we solve that problem?
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:Interesting.
Speaker:And so how many accounts do we
Speaker:think that she was able to tackle?
Speaker:Like what's her scale look like?
Speaker:So she's not a Snowflake, but you
Speaker:know, maybe she's a like 10 person
Speaker:marketing team or something that's more
Speaker:sustainable and what's her ABM approach,
Speaker:one side of the spectrum or the other?
Speaker:Uh, so, so I'll, rather than give me
Speaker:the actual number, I'll, I'll tell
Speaker:you the way she approached it, which
Speaker:was aligning with our BDR team, right?
Speaker:And, and that was the mindset.
Speaker:I think that's how a lot of us have to
Speaker:think about this is, you know, if are...
Speaker:You know, let's go back to 10 accounts.
Speaker:If your universe is 10 accounts that
Speaker:should buy from you because they're
Speaker:all multi-million dollar deals and
Speaker:you only have so many BDRs doing
Speaker:that, then just focus on those 10.
Speaker:But if you have a much bigger universe and
Speaker:you have a BDR team that can scale, and
Speaker:they've got a hundred accounts assigned
Speaker:to them or whatever that is, you need to
Speaker:find that right recipe, balancing that
Speaker:art and science to be able to deliver
Speaker:something that feels personalized, right?
Speaker:Like what we got to remember, we hit
Speaker:on it earlier with all these funny
Speaker:examples of Netflix and Amazon and
Speaker:you know, all, all these companies.
Speaker:I mean, maybe more than ever
Speaker:this past year, I mean, I'm...
Speaker:you can tell I'm at right now, right?
Speaker:This is, this is my house.
Speaker:That is the bar, yes.
Speaker:A bar, a bar, but like on the
Speaker:other side of the room here is the
Speaker:living room and that's where my TV
Speaker:is and Netflix is streaming there.
Speaker:When I take out the phone, like we talked
Speaker:about earlier, I got Spotify on here.
Speaker:I've got notifications coming to me about
Speaker:what I should watch on Netflix tonight.
Speaker:Like, that's the experience, and yet you
Speaker:expect me to go to my inbox when you send
Speaker:me an email and click through and continue
Speaker:to engage on something where you just
Speaker:send me, like we said earlier to some
Speaker:page with all of your e-books, right?
Speaker:Like-
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:... maybe I'll read the first one, but
Speaker:am I going to go to the next one if
Speaker:it's a completely different topic.
Speaker:No not, not likely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Probably not likely, right.
Speaker:It's yeah.
Speaker:Definitely, the buyer experience all
Speaker:the way through and it's something
Speaker:that I think has been talked about
Speaker:for several years and of course,
Speaker:you guys have been talking about it.
Speaker:You were flipped for several
Speaker:years, but people are finally, I
Speaker:feel like, starting to come around
Speaker:to adopt, um, actually trying to
Speaker:implement some of these strategies.
Speaker:So I think that's really great
Speaker:coverage, and, you know, for everybody
Speaker:that's listening, um, Randy also
Speaker:wrote a really great book about it.
Speaker:I don't know if we can say it or
Speaker:we're going to have to beep it out.
Speaker:Huh, do you say that loud?
Speaker:That, that's up to you.
Speaker:I mean, we can beep it out.
Speaker:I can just drop, that it's an
Speaker:F bomb out of the gate, you
Speaker:know, we [crosstalk 00:19:00].
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:You go ahead.
Speaker:Well, good, tell people, tell
Speaker:people what you called your book.
Speaker:[crosstalk 00:19:03] I'm doing
Speaker:marketing and people can figure
Speaker:out what we're talking about.
Speaker:Yeah, it's, you know, writing a book
Speaker:was fun and, uh, it, it was something...
Speaker:I mean, the book's been out for,
Speaker:for a couple of years now, and, and
Speaker:it has been an Amazon bestseller.
Speaker:It's been a lot of fun, you
Speaker:know, to go through that process.
Speaker:You know, w- what the book
Speaker:was really designed to do, it,
Speaker:it, it started as a blog post.
Speaker:So, I mean, we're talking about content.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:This was a blog post that, that I wrote
Speaker:that had the same controversial headline.
Speaker:And, you know, to clarify, when I, when I
Speaker:said the fudge content marketing, right,
Speaker:I wasn't saying that I don't believe
Speaker:in content marketing, I wasn't saying
Speaker:that I don't love content marketers.
Speaker:I think it's really hard work
Speaker:to be a content marketer.
Speaker:The problem with content marketing
Speaker:is the term that ended up happening.
Speaker:This happens with a lot of tech
Speaker:and a lot of buzz words in, in any
Speaker:industry, especially marketing,
Speaker:is we ended up defining it as
Speaker:the first step of the process.
Speaker:So take ABM we just talked about.
Speaker:A lot of people still associate
Speaker:ABM is let me identify the
Speaker:accounts that you buy from us.
Speaker:They don't think that ABM is also
Speaker:how do I get their attention?
Speaker:How do I give them an experience
Speaker:like we just talked about that's,
Speaker:you know, compelling and engaging.
Speaker:Same thing with content marketing.
Speaker:A lot of people ended up defining content
Speaker:marketing as how do I create content, but
Speaker:not what do I do with all that content.
Speaker:And over Forrester and SiriusDecisions,
Speaker:they talk about how over 80% of content
Speaker:we create never gets viewed, right?
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:Never gets viewed.
Speaker:It's like 80%.
Speaker:That's crazy.
Speaker:Think about the effort and you know, the
Speaker:smart people who were working on this.
Speaker:So the idea is not the content marketing's
Speaker:a bad idea, but you know, my view is
Speaker:let's wave the white flag, let's give
Speaker:the term to the creation piece, right?
Speaker:Like a lot of us have hired.
Speaker:Think about people on your team
Speaker:who are content marketers, you
Speaker:associate them as content creators.
Speaker:They could have been journalists before.
Speaker:The, the, the evolution or moreso
Speaker:the next step that we need to think
Speaker:about after we create content is
Speaker:how do we package that content?
Speaker:You know, how does that content live?
Speaker:How is it surrounded by other
Speaker:content that's relevant.
Speaker:Everything that we've been talking
Speaker:about today, that, that glue, that
Speaker:sticks it all together, that gets
Speaker:you to say, I want to go there.
Speaker:The same reason you open up Netflix,
Speaker:the same reason you open up Spotify.
Speaker:It's, it's that relevance factor-
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:... um, as well also the way we display
Speaker:it, et cetera, makes the content
Speaker:more compelling to spend time with.
Speaker:So those are the things that, you
Speaker:know, I put a lot of focus on with
Speaker:my team and, and I always have.
Speaker:Like I obsess over the
Speaker:look and feel of things.
Speaker:Like to me, that is-
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:... that's the marketing that I love.
Speaker:And, and I think that's,
Speaker:that's the rally of the book.
Speaker:It's, let's, let's continue to create
Speaker:content as long as we're going to use it.
Speaker:And if we're not, then absolutely,
Speaker:you know, whatever F bomb you
Speaker:want to throw in front of there,
Speaker:that's what we should be doing.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:So shifting gears, let's spend
Speaker:the last little bit of this.
Speaker:I want to talk more about your team
Speaker:and especially like demand gen itself.
Speaker:So, um, let's start with your
Speaker:perception of the relationship between
Speaker:content marketing and demand gen?
Speaker:Uh, that's a good question.
Speaker:Um, so in, I mean in my, in my company,
Speaker:we do it differently probably than,
Speaker:than many, but we're, you know, we're no
Speaker:longer alone in how we think about this.
Speaker:Uh, you know, I, I think a lot of people,
Speaker:they, they don't value content marketing.
Speaker:They don't value the content marketer
Speaker:in the way they need to be valued.
Speaker:The rule of the content marketer either
Speaker:needs to be expanded to think about, okay,
Speaker:I've created this content, where in the
Speaker:buyer journey, is it gonna live, right?
Speaker:Like where did I create this for?
Speaker:And, and one of the things like, forget
Speaker:about technology to do this, like
Speaker:start with like a spreadsheet, right.
Speaker:You know, start with, uh, like, I
Speaker:still like Excel, uh, like for Google
Speaker:Sheets, but I'd still like Excel.
Speaker:And, you know, think about it this way.
Speaker:Like if you had your X and Y axis, right?
Speaker:If you had your rows and your columns
Speaker:in that spreadsheet, your rows may
Speaker:be something like, you know, who are
Speaker:the different buyers or who are the
Speaker:different personas that we're selling to.
Speaker:A lot of us know there's as many as
Speaker:like 10 people in our buying cycle.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:Who are those people.
Speaker:Uh, could be verticals if you're
Speaker:selling into different verticals.
Speaker:Then if, if we think about our columns,
Speaker:the columns would be, you know,
Speaker:different stages of the buyer journey.
Speaker:We can go as simple as
Speaker:awareness on to advocacy.
Speaker:So you could have different
Speaker:stages along there.
Speaker:Each of those points that we meet, you
Speaker:know, call it like sell A23, right?
Speaker:You know, each of those, we
Speaker:need to think about the buyer.
Speaker:Let's say you're selling to a CFO
Speaker:who's at the consideration stage.
Speaker:What content do they need there, right?
Speaker:And, and to your question, Kaylee,
Speaker:that's where the content team and
Speaker:demand gen team needs to be talking.
Speaker:What most of us end up doing is we're
Speaker:like, oh, well, we got to create
Speaker:more content because we've promised
Speaker:that we're going to create three
Speaker:blog posts this week and two eBooks-
Speaker:Yap.
Speaker:... each quarter right?
Speaker:So we just get, you know, we become
Speaker:this content factory, but we're not
Speaker:thinking about filling the gaps.
Speaker:Now the reality is, depending
Speaker:on your spreadsheet, that
Speaker:thing could be really big.
Speaker:But together with the demand gen
Speaker:team start talking about what
Speaker:are the key points along there?
Speaker:Who are the key buyers
Speaker:at different stages.
Speaker:Those are the holes that we're
Speaker:going to fill before others.
Speaker:Now, if you really want to make
Speaker:this spreadsheet complex, add
Speaker:one more filter, kind of make
Speaker:a Z access if you could do so.
Speaker:And that to me is the channel that
Speaker:they're coming from as well, right?
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:As marketers, there's only so many
Speaker:channels we really use as much as we
Speaker:think there's many, there's email, there's
Speaker:social, there's ads, you know, maybe
Speaker:we've got PR or something like that.
Speaker:I mean, there's, there's only so many
Speaker:sales outreaches, maybe different than
Speaker:your, your view of emails with the map.
Speaker:And what you could do is add that as
Speaker:a filter and then fill in those boxes
Speaker:based on, at that stage, what is the
Speaker:channel and what content do I need that
Speaker:matches the channel they're coming from?
Speaker:Because for social, we may want to
Speaker:think about leading with a video
Speaker:asset versus coming off an, an ad.
Speaker:Maybe we want it to be something more
Speaker:premium that gets them to fill out a form.
Speaker:So these, these are the things that we
Speaker:need to think about, and, you know, tend
Speaker:to, that to me is how either content teams
Speaker:have to step up or demand gen teams need
Speaker:to lean in and talk to the content people.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:It's a true partnership,
Speaker:and I think I've...
Speaker:Uh, personally I've witnessed
Speaker:several organizations that silo
Speaker:content teams and demand gen teams.
Speaker:And it is so dysfunctional.
Speaker:It is impossible to get
Speaker:anything out the door.
Speaker:Um like, I obviously run demand
Speaker:gen here for chili pepper.
Speaker:I cannot do anything
Speaker:without our content team.
Speaker:Like my job would literally not exist.
Speaker:Um, I am not a content marketer.
Speaker:I wish that I were, but I am not,
Speaker:and I'm like not qualified to put
Speaker:together valuable, meaningful content.
Speaker:Um, but that's what our
Speaker:content team is for.
Speaker:So I think that like a true partnership
Speaker:is definitely the best way to go, but I
Speaker:just don't see it often, um, structured
Speaker:that way so that you aren't siloed from
Speaker:one another within your marketing team.
Speaker:It's, it's a, it's a really good point
Speaker:Kaylee, and I, I think some of it
Speaker:sometimes stems from a lot of the CMOs.
Speaker:A lot of the VP leaders often don't
Speaker:come through a content track, right?
Speaker:And I think that's because content
Speaker:people are almost in, in risk.
Speaker:I don't think we're going to go there, and
Speaker:and I'm going to lose some people on this
Speaker:comment of being like perceived as the
Speaker:same low value as a social media person.
Speaker:I don't think that of social media people,
Speaker:I think that they are really strategic as
Speaker:distributors, as opposed to just people
Speaker:who are, you know, starting conversation.
Speaker:Uh, I, I think they're kind of an
Speaker:expansion of your demand view, but you
Speaker:know, it's, it's a very different lens
Speaker:and, and I get to, you know, like you, I
Speaker:get to chat with marketers every week on
Speaker:a podcast and, and mostly my, our CMOs.
Speaker:There's a number of them who did
Speaker:come from either content or PR.
Speaker:There's not a lot, but those ones
Speaker:who do, it's a very different way
Speaker:that they view connecting content.
Speaker:And, and it, and I'm not suggesting that
Speaker:we should only put content people in CMOs,
Speaker:but we can definitely learn a lot from how
Speaker:those people are structuring their teams.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:And then I want to get into this too,
Speaker:because this is actually something
Speaker:we're talking about internally.
Speaker:So selfish question for myself,
Speaker:but I would love to, uh, leverage
Speaker:your expertise is around content
Speaker:attribution or rating content success.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:I need to form the question a little bit
Speaker:better, but how do you make sure that
Speaker:the most valuable pieces of content,
Speaker:um, are appreciated, reported upon,
Speaker:attributed to your business successfully
Speaker:so that you can go back and tell your
Speaker:content team, like this is what's working
Speaker:best and we should do more of this.
Speaker:So what is your like attribution
Speaker:model look like for different content
Speaker:types or for content in general?
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Uh, it's a great question.
Speaker:Um, I'm going to give you the
Speaker:non-pure technology answer to this.
Speaker:I'm going to give you-
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:... first the...
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Uh, because I'm not going to pitch my
Speaker:product or other products specifically.
Speaker:Uh, I, I think the, the key is
Speaker:the, first of all, the ability
Speaker:to track what's happening, right?
Speaker:So even if you don't have a
Speaker:platform, a technology platform,
Speaker:you know, you can do a lot of
Speaker:this even with like Google, right?
Speaker:Like, you know, Google analytics
Speaker:can give us a lot of insight
Speaker:to the path that people take.
Speaker:Now, it's hard to do that at scale and
Speaker:that's where technology will come in,
Speaker:but we need to be able to understand
Speaker:what are those key moments and what is
Speaker:triggering that next stage of evolution.
Speaker:Now, this is where, forget about which
Speaker:technology you have, you need your
Speaker:technology to work together, right?
Speaker:You need your CRM, your marketing
Speaker:automation platform, your enrichment
Speaker:platforms and intent platforms, as well
Speaker:as whatever you're using to host your
Speaker:content, to all talk to each other.
Speaker:That is really the key because we can't
Speaker:go into one of these systems and, and
Speaker:understand just from a content system
Speaker:alone, what is happening unless it's
Speaker:connected to a marketing automation
Speaker:platform, unless it's connected,
Speaker:because what we need to ultimately
Speaker:do, is a very simple way that I think
Speaker:of like kind of three steps of what
Speaker:we're doing in marketing, is we're
Speaker:investing a lot in data, right?
Speaker:We take all that data, and, and
Speaker:we have so much data, right?
Speaker:Like, you know, we got data
Speaker:coming out of our ass, right?
Speaker:And, and, uh, and it's all valuable,
Speaker:but it's only valuable when we
Speaker:start to use it, to actually
Speaker:attract our, our customers.
Speaker:There, we use channels, right?
Speaker:Channels like we talked
Speaker:about, ads, social, email.
Speaker:And then each of those, regardless of
Speaker:what channel, you're thinking about,
Speaker:the one thing in common with any
Speaker:digital channel, even many offline
Speaker:channels, it's a call to action.
Speaker:We want them to go from that channel,
Speaker:say email, it's like, click here.
Speaker:That's what you want to do.
Speaker:Then where do you send them to?
Speaker:So what we need to be able to trace
Speaker:to your question is that path, to
Speaker:understand the data, to understand the
Speaker:channel, how it connects to the content.
Speaker:That to me, is just as relevant
Speaker:as what content did they consume?
Speaker:What content can I attribute?
Speaker:I need to understand the channel,
Speaker:the campaign, the dollars that
Speaker:went behind that to get them there.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:And I think that, that, like you said,
Speaker:we have so much data and so many data
Speaker:points in so many different systems um,
Speaker:that right now we're actually trying to
Speaker:find the cleanest and most concise way
Speaker:to get all of that piped into Salesforce
Speaker:so that everything is like a single
Speaker:source of truth, and we can directly
Speaker:tie that to our Salesforce campaigns,
Speaker:which directly tie back to revenue.
Speaker:Um, so that we're not going around this
Speaker:horn of becoming like what you mentioned
Speaker:earlier, where it's like, oh, I have to
Speaker:create three blog posts, so let me just
Speaker:churn three blog posts out, where instead,
Speaker:we can do the, you know, the whole
Speaker:debate around like quality over quantity.
Speaker:And we aren't in this weird
Speaker:cycle of having to produce blog
Speaker:posts just to produce them.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, it's...
Speaker:It'll be interesting to see
Speaker:what becomes the data system
Speaker:of record with time, right?
Speaker:And I think, we've, we've-
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:... all seen in the last five years, kind
Speaker:of a shift from thinking that the map
Speaker:like our Marketo, Eloqua, whatever it
Speaker:is, HubSpot is to, maybe it's more than
Speaker:CRM and less so at this point, I think,
Speaker:we're seeing this in B2B, but we're
Speaker:starting to see it in B to C, which is
Speaker:this, you know, the rise of a CDP, right?
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:Which if, if, you know, if you
Speaker:need yet another acronym sense
Speaker:for customer data platform, and
Speaker:it's this idea of a 360 view.
Speaker:It's regardless of channel, it's
Speaker:regardless of where that comes from.
Speaker:That becomes so important to
Speaker:filter back to, because it, it...
Speaker:again, back to those three steps, that
Speaker:data allows us to inform what channels
Speaker:to reach out and where to send them.
Speaker:And then as we engage, again, it, this
Speaker:just becomes a circle and we get better.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because we need more data, right.
Speaker:That's the whole point of this, right.
Speaker:More, more platforms, more
Speaker:technology, more data points.
Speaker:Um, okay, cool.
Speaker:Well, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker:Before we wrap, I always ask one
Speaker:final question, who is another
Speaker:marketer that you are following in
Speaker:the space that our listeners should
Speaker:go follow, read their book, follow
Speaker:them on social, whatever it may be.
Speaker:Ooh, there's so many.
Speaker:Who do I wanna call better?
Speaker:I know.
Speaker:You have to pick one.
Speaker:No, I always like what
Speaker:Kyle Lacy's got to say.
Speaker:Uh, Kyle Lacy is the CMO at Lessonly.
Speaker:He's fantastic.
Speaker:I think he's...
Speaker:first of all, he gets marketing,
Speaker:but he's also a great leader, uh,
Speaker:in terms of, you know, his views
Speaker:and, and how he rallies his team.
Speaker:Uh, I've always had a
Speaker:lot of respect for him.
Speaker:And if anyone wants to follow you
Speaker:afterwards, where's the best place?
Speaker:Uh, it's a great question.
Speaker:I, I'm probably most active on LinkedIn,
Speaker:but uh, if you want to, you know, find
Speaker:another podcast in addition to this great
Speaker:one, go check out The Marketer's Journey,
Speaker:uh, available on probably whatever
Speaker:podcast platform you're on right now.
Speaker:Uh, and, uh, you know, other than
Speaker:that, go check out uberflip.com.
Speaker:Thank you so much for taking the time.
Speaker:Um, for anybody listening, if
Speaker:you've enjoyed this podcast,
Speaker:please leave us a review.
Speaker:It continues to allow us to bring
Speaker:you more valid content like this.
Speaker:Um, thanks so much and we
