Survival is a term laden with significance, denoting the resilience of those who have endured harrowing experiences. However, as we explore in this discourse, survival is not the ultimate destination; rather, it serves as a precursor to a more profound journey of healing and self-actualization. Our esteemed guest, Amy MacKinnon, author of "More Than a Survivor," elucidates the imperative transition from merely surviving to genuinely living a fulfilled life. Through her insights, we delve into the complexities of overcoming trauma, addressing the misconceptions surrounding healing, and the vital steps necessary for reclaiming one's narrative. This episode is a clarion call for all those who have faced adversity, emphasizing that the pathway to a richer existence is both attainable and essential.

The discourse encapsulated in this episode unveils a profound exploration of the concept of survival, particularly in the context of overcoming personal trauma. The speakers, engaging in a thoughtful dialogue, emphasize the distinction between mere survival and the journey toward genuine living. It is articulated that while the designation of 'survivor' is one of considerable strength and resilience, it should not be perceived as the final chapter in the narrative of healing. The conversation delves into the experiences of individuals who have endured harrowing circumstances, highlighting the significance of transitioning from surviving to thriving. The guest speaker, Amy MacKinnon, shares her personal odyssey, illustrating how she navigated the complexities of her trauma and ultimately emerged with a renewed sense of agency and purpose. This episode serves as an invitation for listeners to reflect on their own journeys and to consider the transformative power of embracing not only survival but also the profound act of living fully and authentically post-trauma.

Takeaways:

• Survivors possess profound narratives that reflect their experiences of enduring and overcoming adversity, which deserve recognition and honor.
• Healing transcends mere survival; it encompasses a journey towards reclaiming one's life and agency after trauma.
• The process of healing is neither linear nor instantaneous; it demands continuous effort and the cultivation of healthy relationships with one's past.
• Addressing shame and unspoken trauma is crucial for personal liberation, as silence perpetuates suffering and hinders the healing process.
• Survivors often find empowerment through sharing their stories, which not only aids their own healing but also resonates with others who face similar struggles.
• It is never too late to embark on the path of healing; small, deliberate steps can lead to profound transformations over time.

Links referenced in this episode:

• AmyMcKiernan.com
• amazon.com
• bookbaby.com
• bookshop.org

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Take Back the Night
• Campus Outreach
• Amazon
• Bookbaby
• Bookshop

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Dear listeners, there is a word that we use for people who have lived through something devastating.

We call them survivors.

And the word carries real weight.

I mean, it honors what someone has endured, what they have held, what they have kept going through.

Right.

But survival is not the whole story.

And for the.

For a lot of people, it was never supposed to be the final destination.

So today's conversation, dear listeners, is all about, I mean, what comes after the survival, about the path from enduring to actually living and what it takes to work it honestly.

So, hey, dear listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of Mind meets Machine, a real conversation podcast about human experience and the inner work that human shapes it.

So I'm your host, and I am grateful that all of you are here today.

Thank you so much for joining us.

And my guest today is the author of More Than a Survivor, eight keys to overcoming sexual assault and finding a path to living a fulfilled life, presenter for Take Back the Night and Campus Outreach services, and a woman who's mission is to encourage healing, education, allyship for those who need it.

So while to wait, please welcome our guest, Amy MacKinnon.

So welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm really, really happy to be here today.

Amazing.

Amazing Amy.

And so, Amy, like, before we get into.

Deep into the discussion, I have to start with, like, writing a book about something this personal is definitely an act of enormous courage.

So I want to ask you about that decision.

When did you know the story needed to exist beyond your own private experience?

Yes, you know, I.

So these experiences all happened, you know, over 20 years ago, and I had always kind of known that I wanted to use my experiences to help others.

And I had, like, toyed around with the idea of, all right, maybe I'll write a book one day.

Like, I'm not sure.

At the time, it was a radio program.

It was my dad's radio program.

Okay.

And we did an episode called what do you do when life gets broken?

And we talked about, as a family, my first experience with rape.

And this was a live program.

And there was a woman who called in from the Philippines, and she was so impacted in.

In what I was saying.

And.

And she had her own experiences.

I mean, man, this woman had gone through it, and she was so touched by my courage to.

To talk about it.

And it was after that experience that I was like, okay, I really do want to do something with this, um.

But that's when I. I decided that I was going to do it and started kind of playing around with the idea and getting organized and.

But that.

That experience sticks out to me because that was a moment for me where I was able to talk to this person from another part of the world and connect with them and realize that my story has so much power.

All of ours do, you know, and we can help and impact others with them.

I totally can understand.

I mean, you.

You made me.

I remember my time only like when I started this just before COVID Only so.

So before.

I mean, sorry, after.

Just after Covid.

So before COVID it was like I was very much motivated into like have.

So I'm into my.

My background is into it.

And so I was more focused into like, I have to doing this and I have to go to office and do all these things and all.

But suddenly Covid changed everything, right?

And then I realized.

And I also get into the situation where I had to spend some serious situations during the COVID period.

And from there, when I started about the mental health part and it was sudden thing, I was feeling alone and I was thinking like, if I'm.

I'm also.

I'm feeling like this, there may be a lot of people also as well.

Right.

So let's try to connect.

Just started.

And from there I also connected with one woman from Singapore and we just had a call.

I mean, she was also kind.

I mean also she had some issues into the family.

She was worried about her father.

From there we had a conversation.

We understood like how it feels like when you connect, when you share things and you feel like when that person with whom you are conversing is actually understanding you, they're also feeling about it.

Right.

So then you realize that, yes, you are in the right direction.

You should start.

So when you made me realize or maybe remember that part.

Yeah, exactly.

That's great.

So beautiful.

Exactly.

So.

So coming to your point, like, I'd definitely love to also ask you about the misconception part, because the title of your book, it says that something very deliberate, like more than a survivor.

That phrase definitely pushes back against something.

So there's a misconception embedded in how we talk about healing from the sexual abuse.

So maybe in how society frames the Endpoint or recovery is supposed to look like.

So what is the misconception that you most needed to challenge when you sat down to write this?

Yeah, I love that.

That question, because you're right.

I think that, first of all, I just want to say that there is so much power in being a survivor, you know, and I. I'm not taking away from any of that.

And I feel like, at least for me, I found myself stuck in the survival mode.

You know, identifying as a survivor, it can be so strong, and it is such an important step, but I really don't think the journey ends there.

Because when you really think about it, what does it mean to be a survivor of something?

You know, you could survive so many things, but what condition are you in?

You know, are you actually healing?

Are your wounds still wide open?

Are you still bleeding out?

Are you barely getting through the day, but you're surviving?

Oh, and I think that that's where so many of us end up, right?

In survival mode, in autopilot, just pushing through, pushing down and moving forward.

And there's so much more to it, right?

And my.

I.

You know, my dad, when I was younger, going through all of this, he would tell me, he would say, you are not a victim.

You are not a survivor.

You are an overcomer.

And he didn't mean that I wasn't a victim of sexual assault, because I was.

And he didn't mean that I didn't survive it, because I did.

But he wanted me to identify with the overcoming part because there's so much more to overcoming something, not simply surviving it.

It's so much more powerful because you gain control back of the narrative when you.

When you look at it through that lens, and that's what my book is about.

Like, you survived.

That is amazing.

You are so strong.

But let's do more.

Let's keep pushing forward.

Let's actually overcome it to where those experiences don't define you, and they don't run your narrative, and they don't define your life, and they don't weigh on you every day.

And that's.

That's what I think I've done for myself, and that's what I want to help other people do with their experiences, too.

Exactly.

That.

That's really a great thing.

Yes, definitely.

And so here, like, overcoming is definitely.

I totally agree with you.

And for someone who has spent years and years identifying as a survivor or who has built a kind of armor around that identity.

So what does it.

What does it feel like to begin, considering that there might be Something more on the other side of it as well.

Like, is it a kind of.

Is that a kind of welcome idea or it's a kind of frightening one?

What is it?

I mean, so healing, it's not linear, it's not overnight, and it's.

And it's continuous, right?

And so this isn't like, okay, just decide to be an overcomer and poof, here you go, you're free.

You know, it takes hard work, but I think the root of it is having healthy relationships with your experiences.

Realizing that healing doesn't make it go away, you know, it's still there.

It still happened.

It doesn't mean forgetting either, Right.

It means having those experiences not have power over you anymore.

And so in my opinion, you know, being an overcomer and overcoming it, it's.

It's where you put it in.

You put it where it belongs in your life.

Right?

These things happened.

They don't define me.

However, I grew and I became stronger through them.

And that's what I identify as.

Right?

I get to be the person who was formed out of pain and hard things.

And it was not easy.

But I am so beautiful, confident and strong, regardless.

Not necessarily because of it, but regardless, like, I can grow and identify as strength, not as a wounded person, not as somebody who was beaten down and is just barely getting through.

I can identify as someone strength and have a healthy relationship with my experiences where that's what they are.

They're experiences.

They're not who I am.

The damage, the shame, the pain, that's not who I am.

You know, I felt those things.

It was hard.

Those things took over my life for a while, but they're not who I am.

I was able to work through them and put them where they belong.

And now I have this really healthy relationship with my experience where I can talk about it.

I can be a voice for others.

I can help people not feel so alone.

And that has been the most empowering part of my journey is being able to have these conversations and talk to other people and help them not feel so isolated in their experiences and feel like there's more to healing than I thought.

I think, you know, it's not.

Forget it's not pushed down.

It's not, let's just pretend it didn't happen.

It's having a healthy relationship and not giving those experiences all the power.

Exactly.

And obviously I have to say this, that there's something really important in that behavior is like either identity is, I would say, hard won and deeply meaningful.

And at a certain point, for Some people, it can also become a ceiling as well.

So the invitation that you are extending is not to abandon that identity.

It is to definitely find out what's possible beyond it.

So that's a.

That's a. I'd say very, very different kind of courage, I would say.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And if you go to the root causes and the deep patterns, also, you work with the eight keys in your fame mock, and.

And I don't want to rush through them, but whether my curiosity is, like, about something that sits underneath the framework itself, like, I mean, in your experience, what are the deeper patterns that tend to keep people stuck in the survival chapter for longer and longer than they need to be?

Hmm.

That's a really great question.

You know, I think there's.

There's so many ways I could answer that, right.

I think it depends on where you are at.

So, like, one of my keys is called Avoid the Void.

Speak up.

And I think that one thing people face is that these are all that.

These are secrets.

Their experiences are secrets.

They're things that they have not talked about, they have not found support in, that they have pushed so far deep within themselves, and that they don't even realize that they're stuck.

You know, when you have unresolved trauma, you are stuck, and it will impact all these aspects of life that you don't even realize.

Right.

It's not until you really start doing the work and digging deep that you're like, wow, I do this thing, and it's actually linked to this trauma that I experienced 20 plus years ago.

How.

What?

You know, and.

And so I think that that's one of the biggest things that people face is that they don't want to talk about it.

They want to push it down.

They either, you know, in their brains, they make it okay.

Right?

Like, oh, really wasn't as big of a deal as.

As I thought.

It's fine.

It's fine.

Or it was my fault.

I shouldn't have.

I shouldn't have done this.

I shouldn't have that.

Or it's way too embarrassing.

I don't want to bring this up.

It'll cause problems.

It's embarrassing.

And so, you know, one of the biggest things is.

Is speaking up, getting help, and saying it out loud.

Right?

It's like the power of giving it language, the power of acknowledging that this thing that happened wasn't okay and it wasn't my fault.

And I can give it language, and I can.

I deserve support, and I deserve to heal.

And you know what healing Is never too late.

And if you're one of those people who, you know, whatever it is happened years and years or decades ago, it's still not too late.

And I think, you know, one of the biggest thing is unaddressed, you know, unspoken trauma leaves us so stuck and in these patterns of being, in these ways of being that we don't even realize that we can even get out of.

I think that's one of the biggest things that.

That holds people back.

Exactly true.

And.

And.

And.

And if I have to say that seen specifically because it seems like it sits at the center of so much of what keeps healing at kind of arm's length.

For people who have experienced the sexual abuse, how does shame operate?

Like, how.

I mean, what does it take to begin loosening its hold?

I mean, that's a great question.

I think every.

You know, it is an.

That's an individualized answer.

Right.

Like, everybody experiences that differently.

Yeah.

But I'll speak from my own experience, you know, Shame.

Shame kept me quiet.

You know, Like, I have several experiences, and none of them, once they happened, did I just automatically go get help.

Not a single one.

I was ashamed, and I blamed myself.

And I also viewed myself as like, this is my lot in life almost.

Right.

Like, once it just kept happening.

I was like, well, this is just what's meant to be.

This is who I am for the world.

And it just became my normal.

Right.

And so.

And I think shame is.

It's so powerful, and it's a stronghold.

We're embarrassed, we're ashamed.

We blame ourselves for putting ourselves in situations, for drinking too much, for dressing the way we did, for flirting.

Oh, it's like things like that.

And then automatically in our brains, we are at fault, or we're embarrassed, or we think people are gonna be mad at us or whatever it is.

And I think that it all starts with baby steps, first of all.

Baby steps.

Because none of this happens overnight, right?

And none of it just.

It's like I said before, it's not a straight line.

Some days feel strong.

Some days feel like you're back in the beginning.

But it's all about making small decisions, you know, and choosing yourself.

Right?

So if you're stuck in that shame and that silence, small decisions.

Maybe.

Maybe you start with something as simple as writing it down, right?

Like.

Right.

Get it out of your body and onto paper.

Maybe you start with telling one safe person, you know, allowing yourself to say the words out loud.

Maybe you start with just saying, you know what?

I am going to accept the Idea that this wasn't my fault.

You know, it's really small steps, one at a time to slowly get out of that void that you're in.

It doesn't happen overnight for most people.

Right.

It is really chipping away and making small decisions and maybe joining a support group or seeing a therapist for the first time, you know, and then eventually you'll find that you're clearing a path for yourself.

And all of a sudden you're like, that shame doesn't have this chokehold over me anymore, huh?

How did that happen?

You know, and so it's really.

It's a journey.

It's one step at a time.

Small choices for yourself.

I totally agree.

I mean, I have to say this, that shame is so insidious, like, because it's.

It turns the injury in inward and it takes what was done to someone and convinces them and saying, I mean something about who they are, like, dismantling that.

Not a quick process, but your work is definitely the evidence that it is a possible one.

Definitely.

Great.

I also love to ask you about, like, healing from something.

Obviously, like you also mentioned it, that it's not a linear.

Right.

And I imagine that there are moments when someone who has made real progress gets pulled back by a trigger memory.

You can say a season of the year also.

So how do you help someone understand that being pulled back doesn't mean that they have lost everything, what they have built.

So what does it actually mean?

Yeah, yeah, I love that because that's so true.

That is the reality.

And like, you know, like I said before, some days are strong, some seasons in life are strong, and then some are not.

And.

And I think that no matter how much healing you've done, there's always going to be something that triggers.

Right?

You're always going to have those moments or those days where you feel.

You feel it, you're in it, you're just have to spend time with it.

Right?

And that's how I kind of.

I'm a very visual person, so I like to paint a lot of very clear pictures of what I'm talking about.

And so I'll touch on one of the keys because I talk about this, and it's called putting things where they belong.

And it's about envisioning your mind as a closet.

Right?

And in your closet are all your experiences, all the things that happen in life.

Right?

And envisioning your trauma, your painful experiences, and all the ways you've interpreted yourself through those experiences as like a sweater.

Right.

Okay.

And that sweater is something that you're choosing, you put it on every day and it becomes like this comfort item, right?

And so the goal is like you, you don't even realize you're putting it on anymore.

You're just wearing it every day.

You don't actually feel yourself without it.

And so the goal is to finally remove it and put it away with respect and care, right?

So not throwing it in the back of your closet to never be seen again, not trying to destroy it, folding it up neatly and putting it in a place with care so that if you need to, you can revisit it, right?

So putting your experiences away somewhere where you can access them, you can revisit them.

If you're feeling triggered one day, hmm, maybe that means you need to reflect on that and be with your experiences a little bit.

Take that box out of your closet and sort through the contents for a little bit.

Feel what you feel, feel those emotions.

And then when you're done, you simply put it away again, right?

So you're not putting it back on and having that weight on your shoulders.

You're simply spending time with your experiences, reflecting, doing what you need to do to take care of yourself through it, talking to somebody, and then putting it away again, right?

Because there will always be triggers throughout life.

You know, like I'm a parent of two now, and I find that, you know, parenting my children, they're getting older, my daughter is 10.

It's like that pre adolescent, that adolescence is coming and I.

And I can feel it in my body, like, okay, like she's almost at the age that I was when things started happening.

And what I'm.

I'm feeling something right now.

I'm feeling the nerves, I'm feeling the tension coming come back because it just, it.

It triggered me.

It triggers me sometimes to think about that.

And that just means that I have to take a step back and I have to see what I need in that moment.

I need to spend time with my experiences.

I need to reflect, I need to center myself.

I need to remind myself that this is not that moment and I have power and control over what I decide to do next.

And then I just recenter myself.

I put my experiences back where they belong and I continue to parent the way that I feel is best, you know, and so I think that it's an important reminder to know that just because triggers happen does not mean you're behind in your healing, does not mean that you're doing a terrible job.

I think that triggers will always happen and you'll find that you'll be able to respond to them in a stronger way the more you do this work.

Exactly.

And for the person who is very far from the beginning of this, who maybe experienced this years ago, decades ago, and has never really addressed it, is it ever too late to walk this path?

No, it's never too late to heal.

I really, really, truly believe that.

I think that no matter where you are in your journey, whether it is fresh, if your experiences are brand new, or if they happened to you decades ago, you can still do this work.

In fact, I, you know, through my book and social media, I have this follower who read my book not too long ago, and his experiences happened back in the 70s, and he has found so much comfort and strength through these keys, and he's utilizing them to work through things that he hadn't worked through yet.

You know, and it just goes to show, it's never too late.

It's never too late to take back your life.

And you know what?

No matter how old you are, you deserve it.

You absolutely deserve to do that for yourself.

Exactly.

And also, like, I want to ask, like, and this is for the person who's listening right now.

They'll be listening, like, who has never told anyone that, who has been carrying this completely, completely alone, maybe for years and years, maybe for most of their life, who doesn't know if healing is something they are allowed to want.

So what do you want them to know in this moment?

I think I would want them to know that it really is.

It's all about choices.

Small, sustainable choices.

No matter who you are, you can do this.

No matter how long ago you can do this.

And even if it means, if you're stuck and you're like, I don't even know where to start with this.

I don't even know who I would tell about this thing.

I don't have anyone in my life that I feel comfortable talking to about this.

You know, then just know that there still is support out there.

Finding your support is such a huge piece of this, and it will look different for everyone, but it does exist for everyone.

You know, there now there are hotlines you can call, support groups you can join, even just reaching out to a school counselor or a coworker or a therapist, you know, saying it out loud to someone is a.

Is one choice, a choice that you can make.

It's one step.

And then you.

You'll see what the next step is.

It really is about making small, sustainable choices in the right direction.

And eventually you do clear that path and it becomes easier to go down that road, but it.

It is attainable for everyone and.

And everyone certainly deserves it.

So if you're feeling stuck and like, you don't know where to go, call a hotline, you know, go online and find a support group.

Talk to somebody that you don't even have to look at, right?

You can, like, call them and not even see their face and just say, here's what I'm dealing with.

What do I do?

And they'll give you the right.

They'll give you a direction to go in.

And I bet you that it will feel.

You'll feel a release, you know, you'll feel a lightness happen when you take that one step, and then you'll take another step, you know, like, you're listening right now.

You know, what.

What step will you take next?

So, yeah, it's all about one.

Small steps, small choices.

So, dear listeners, if I could hold one sentence from everything Amy has offered us today, it would be like this.

That survival was never the kind of destination, it was the door.

And from the other side of it is a life that still belongs entirely to you.

I mean, just think about it.

I definitely think this is something which I'm taking it away.

It's a takeaway for me.

Also would love to ask all of you, like, what do you think is the takeaway that you are taking it from this, today's episode?

So, Amy, like, for anyone who's listening right now, maybe, and maybe they'll also listen later.

Who wants to find your book, follow your work, Simply know that this kind of support exists.

So where they can find you and what is the best place?

Yeah.

Yeah, great.

So you can go to my website.

It's Amy McKiernan.com youm can find my book on Amazon, Bookbaby Bookshop, you know, your local bookstore.

You can follow me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook.

I have all those channels.

So come follow me, see what I'm up to.

I like to post, you know, inspirational healing videos sometimes.

So check me out.

But yeah, I really encourage, you know, finding the book and starting.

It's a great place to start.

If you don't know where to start, it's a great place to start.

And I will say that it also includes this reflective journal, because this book isn't only about my story, it's about yours.

And so you can download the reflective journal and you can work through it while reading.

So we work together, right?

I can be that support.

You can read through my book and you can work on your own path.

And journey while reading it and I think that that's so special.

So I'm here with you if you decide to get it and yeah, find me on my website, find me on social media.

I'd love to hear from you and I hope, I hope you take that step if you need to.

Exactly.

That's a, that's a great saying I'd say.

And dear listeners, what I'll do is I'll put all the links and the details into the show notes for easy reference and yes, that's the wrap up today's episode on Mind Means Machine.

And I'd say if this conversation brought something up for you, a memory, a recognition or something that you have been carrying quietly, please be gentle with yourself today.

You don't have to have all figured it out at once.

So you, you just have to be willing to take one step, right?

So that is the main important part and as I mentioned, yes, all the details of Amy's, Amy's details and the books in book information will also be there at the show notes.

And if someone in your life needs to hear this conversation, please pass it on to that person with care.

I can say only this.

So this is your host Eric and this is Mymeats Machine.

You are more than what happened to you and please take good care of yourself and see you next time.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.