Friend of the show, Tom Carusona, CMO of Insomnia Cookies, drops by for a full episode with the guys. The trio offer snap decisions on the state of influencer marketing. Tom talks about the key ingredients of making Insomnia a cult brand and shares stories about brand essence, pajama parties and other tasty marketing programs. John’s asks an unattainable Jerk to be a guest.

Key topics & chapter markers 

(00:00) Too many marketers/Intro

(01:30) Influencer marketing — more than just Kardashians

(07:44) Stuck in the 70s, wishing for watercooler conversations 

(12:17) Cultivating a cult brand

(21:54) Owning the night

(26:12) Covid and The Cookie Lab

(29:54) Positioning products for brand authenticity

(33:15) Do cookies translate in Canada and the UK?

(37:06) Warm cookies and cold pucks

(39:54) Aramark: a bigger brand with bigger implications

(43:40) Getting into marketing

(47:14) Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest

Background Content

"The State of Influencer Marketing 2023" - Influencer Marketing Hub

"The Case for and against Micro-influencers" - Digiday

"Hubspot State of Marketing 2023" - Hubspot

"Insomnia Cookies teams with Justin Jefferson for special launch" -Bake Magazine

"The secret ingredient to Mets '19 turnaround" - MLB.com

Connect with Brian and John on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmarks13/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-l-young/

Hey, John,

2

John: Hey, Brian.

3

Brian: welcome back.

4

John: Hey, good to see you.

5

Brian: Good to see you.

6

Hey, let me ask you a question.

7

John: Yeah.

8

Brian: can you ever have too

many marketers on a podcast?

9

John: No, probably not.

10

I mean, if two marketers are good,

11

Brian: why not three, right?

12

John: why not three?

13

Brian: right.

14

Well, you know, we have

some special plan tonight.

15

We've got a friend of the show who Uh,

I would say that anyone that knows or

16

has worked with either of us has, is

probably saying, Oh my God, that was, has

17

not already happened, but we're going to

throw them in right here at the beginning.

18

And we're just going to go with it.

19

Uh, I'd like to welcome

in, uh, Tom Carasona,

20

John: Yay.

21

Tom: Hey, what's up guys,

22

Brian: uh, a longtime friend

of both John and I, and, uh,

23

is the CMO at insomnia cookies.

24

Tom: celebrity matchmaker

as well with you too.

25

John: We would not be, Brian

and I would not be together if

26

not for you, Tom, so thank you.

27

Tom: thank you both.

28

Thank you for having me today.

29

I'm uh, I'm really excited.

30

This has been awesome so far and

really enjoying listening to these.

31

John: Good.

32

Thank you.

33

Brian: you much appreciated.

34

John: We've had fun doing it.

35

A

36

Brian: right.

37

Well, why don't we just get right into it?

38

So, we're going to talk

about some marketing stuff.

39

We're going to hear a little bit about,

Tom and what he's doing over at Insomnia.

40

And then of course, we'll have

a, hopelessly unattainable

41

guest who won't be Tom.

42

And, because we have him and we'll

go from So, know, one of the things

43

that, is kind of sitting out there

for us to talk about is, influencers.

44

So, influencer marketing has obviously

skyrocketed the last few years.

45

in fact, state of influencer marketing

46

to jump in, uh, another 29 percent to

an estimated 21 billion, um, P yeah.

47

And so, um, it's a huge part of

almost everybody's marketing plan.

48

and, the ability to have somebody

kind of speak for your brand

49

who, might carry some weight.

50

Obviously, that's not a new thing,

John, but, and Tom, but it's, uh,

51

the way that we're doing it is a

little bit different than we used to.

52

I mean, one of the, the really

interesting trends that I'm seeing

53

is this like micro influencer segment.

54

So, there's been some categorization of

different audience sizes of influencers.

55

Clearly we know, like the Kim

Kardashians, the larger celebrities,

56

uh, And the Jenner girls, but, there's

also this micro influencer segment

57

that, a lot of brands are focusing on.

58

And, as you get kind of more niche and

niche and niche, um, there's even a,

59

a really small segment up to about 10,

000 followers called a nano segment.

60

And so, you know, you're looking at these,

these different groups of people and even

61

content that you're accessing online is

really becoming much more niche focused.

62

, so the ways that you have to develop

plans to reach people and the

63

amount of work you now have to do

to reach people in different ways.

64

There's definitely a risk of having

somebody else speak to your product

65

but, it can obviously pay off in

big ways, but you know, what are you

66

guys seeing that's working and where

do you see this continuing to go,

67

Tom: Brian, you said a lot

and a really good intro there.

68

I think there's a couple of

things from my perspective.

69

One, um, I think you made a point around.

70

some ways this hasn't, this

isn't a totally new thing.

71

And I was thinking, you know,

actually it's, it's kind of like

72

the oldest form of marketing just

applied to where we are today, right?

73

It's, it's spokespeople essentially.

74

And hopefully some of these people

actually, you know, use your product,

75

care about your product, and that's

really where the word of mouth and

76

the output that you want comes from.

77

and I was just thinking, you know,

how does that apply to today?

78

And, you know, how does that kind

of connect across all these areas?

79

So for, for us.

80

you know, it's really important.

81

we try to connect with kind of

different, let's think about like

82

rings around a bullseye of influencers.

83

Right.

84

So you talked about nano for us,

that would be like a new store

85

opening in a new market, right?

86

Like getting these people

that are really influential.

87

In Abilene, Texas, right?

88

Like some little town that most of the

country hasn't heard of, but one store

89

there for us could be really powerful.

90

So, like, getting those influencers that

are going to make a major impact there

91

might be more influential than getting

on the local news if that even exists.

92

Right?

93

then the next ring for us might be like

a college or university and, like, having

94

the influencers and the athletes that

affect that entire kind of community.

95

And then kind of building from that

might be like a dietary community, right?

96

Like, vegan or gluten free.

97

Right?

98

So.

99

Yeah.

100

us, we try to, kind of attack it across

all these different layers and sizes

101

and try to make sure that throughout

it, like, the consistent thing that

102

you need to find is, is authenticity.

103

Right?

104

Like, I have a pretty strict rule

that I'm not paying people who

105

don't genuinely like the product.

106

We have the privilege of having a product

that most people like, we've all worked

107

on products where people don't like it.

108

It's

109

John: Yeah.

110

Tom: Much easier to promote

something that already people already

111

John: I, don't, for the record, I don't

know what you're talking about, Tom.

112

Tom,

113

Tom: um, yeah.

114

So anyway, like, I think it's important

to find that authenticity and then like

115

those people that are going to talk about

it are just going to be that much more

116

authentic and amplify that much more.

117

Right.

118

Because it's true.

119

It's not just like, Oh yeah,

they paid me to talk about this.

120

So I'm going to tell them.

121

, John: I know you can't enforce, you

know, when you're, when you're having

122

an influencer because you're, you're

ceding control for how they craft the

123

message and deliver the message to them.

124

That's kind of the gig, but how

do you at least guide them to

125

delivering, on some of that, brand

messaging that is important to you?

126

And, and how do you

enforce that Authenticity

127

Tom: it's, I mean it starts with

finding the right people, right.

128

Like really trying to

find people that actually.

129

they've never tried the product before

are going to try it and, you know,

130

give you an honest opinion or review.

131

And if they have, trying to find

the people that already love it

132

and really just trying to figure

out how do you amplify that?

133

So, in terms of the messaging,

know, we have a, we actually have

134

a tech platform that we use to

communicate with large, influencers

135

and we can communicate with them.

136

Load up messaging in there and, build

little briefs and they can pull from the

137

briefs and basically get, reimbursed or

paid for, certain tasks that they do.

138

So we try to really make it

as systematic as possible.

139

And then also that helps us with the,

the tracking of it on the backend.

140

John: and you vet them before

they have access to that platform.

141

So you kind of know who's

got access to your, stuff.

142

Got it.

143

Tom: Yep.

144

For sure.

145

John: And assume they provide like

reporting and all that stuff too on the

146

Tom: yeah, exactly.

147

It's Influencers can opt into and then

you can find influencers based on where

148

they live, what they're passionate

about, you know, how big, big or small,

149

or, you know, how engaging they are.

150

It's pretty, pretty helpful.

151

John: Tom, you mentioned a minute ago the

idea that you're not going to pay someone

152

who doesn't love your product, right?

153

And this goes to, uh, both the

authenticity and then the permission

154

thing, but, my take on this influencer

marketing is you, we, we can get

155

sometimes a little twisted up over, ,brand

consistency and brand controls, but given

156

the technology and the platforms that

are out there now, we don't have control.

157

As marketers over our brand story,

because for every influencer, Tom

158

and insomnia might deploy, there

might be 10 others who might be.

159

Commenting on the product, and

you have no control over that.

160

Right.

161

And it could be good, could be bad,

could be right on message, could be

162

like violently, violently anti message.

163

So I think that that's, you know,

part of the reality of this influencer

164

world is like, yeah, you want to

have some control and you want to.

165

Try some authenticity, but there's only

so much you can do because it's out there.

166

Tom: If you want complete

control, don't go down this path.

167

Right.

168

John: Yeah.

169

Turn off your

170

Tom: Put all your money, right.

171

Put all money into advertising and

then you can control the message.

172

I think,

173

Brian: don't really have

a brand at that point.

174

So, you know,

175

Tom: exactly.

176

Exactly.

177

Brian: But that's, fascinating because,

you know, you look at like, you know,

178

like, uh, Joe DiMaggio selling coffee

in the 70s And, that's a way that like,

179

Hey, like everybody loves this guy.

180

So if he's drinking this

coffee, I want to drink it.

181

It kind of reminds me of like.

182

the long tail of Google search,

you know, like this real specific

183

niche type thing where, somebody is

looking for something so specific

184

and, maybe there's only a small amount

of people that are, are looking for

185

that one thing at that one particular

time, but they're the right people.

186

And you'll get such a high

percentage of those people

187

because they are the right people.

188

Whereas you're just spraying

and praying with Joe DiMaggio

189

because everybody loves Joe, but.

190

know, so

191

Tom: And that at

192

John: could you go any, could you,

Brian, could you go a little further

193

back in your reference in case there's

somebody who's not 90 listening to this?

194

Brian: John, I was actually trying

to connect with your age group,

195

John: so, so, Brian, I, similarly to

the, to, you know, you mentioned, uh,

196

you know, an iconic, an old, very old

197

this, I feel the same way about the

influencer stuff as I do about TV.

198

Like, I kind of miss the days where there

are these cultural moments around big

199

shared media moments, you know, where

like everybody did watch the last episode

200

of Match and whatever the, whatever the

TV commercials that were on, then people

201

talked, people talked about the next day.

202

now with media so fragmented, the

messaging is also so fragmented.

203

So I kind of miss that don't have the

opportunity to share with a lot of people.

204

Oh, did you see that thing?

205

Like, no, because it was a nano

influencer that reached, you know,

206

8, 000 people that have nothing

to do with the way I go through my

207

Brian: Or 80.

208

I mean, and the only thing we

have left now is really the

209

super, it's like the super bowl.

210

And then the person reaches 80 people

in, in, in the suburb of Texas.

211

John: and some really

bad stuff in between,

212

Brian: what, you know, what did,

uh, Tom, let me ask you this.

213

What did you, uh, what did

you think of the black Friday,

214

uh, Amazon football game?

215

Tom: I liked that they did

something on Black Friday.

216

I mean, everybody's off.

217

You're kind of craving football

throughout that entire weekend.

218

give the people what they want.

219

And like, you've seen the

trends of black Friday, right?

220

Like there's not the people banging

down the doors and trampling

221

each other to get a TV anymore.

222

Right.

223

Everyone's sitting online and ordering.

224

And, I think Amazon obviously is

positioned to capture quite a bit

225

of the, uh, the Q4 retail market.

226

and this just continues to, to

position them right where, right at

227

the top of everybody's mind, you know?

228

Brian: and mainstream marketing

is really about these times where

229

people are doing all the same thing.

230

So that's definitely a time period

where everybody's shopping, everybody's

231

looking for stuff for the holidays.

232

No one's really, know, I don't say

no one's working, but you know,

233

there's a lot of people off of work.

234

And, the game gave them a reason

to, like you said, kind of have

235

these water cooler moments.

236

And, and the way that Amazon is coming up

with some really cool ways to, to target

237

and, and provide content in different ways

than, traditional television has done.

238

So, uh, there's a lot, I expect

something like that to really grow.

239

So we'll see what that,

what happens with that.

240

Tom: Yeah.

241

And I think

242

John: football is the

last, the last bastion

243

Brian: is, it really

244

John: you know, communal watercolor

I mean, it was 19 of the 20

245

highest rated shows on linear

TV this year have been football.

246

Tom: yeah, I believe it.

247

Brian: insane.

248

John: quote me on that

because I might've made that

249

Tom: No, that seems like a, that

seems like a right, a right stat.

250

The right

251

John: it is.

252

Tom: definitely attributable to somebody.

253

think with the Amazon

thing too, like, Okay.

254

So if you go back 5, 10 years or whatever,

right, Walmart, Best Buy, whoever to

255

bait you to get into the store, right?

256

That's all that Amazon is

doing with this game, right?

257

They're just like, you're sitting in front

of the TV now and your computer and your

258

phone and that is their store, right?

259

So they've got you locked in.

260

Um, it's, it's just taking the

storefront out of the store

261

and putting it into your hand.

262

And it's pretty, it's a pretty smart move.

263

Brian: One of the things that

they're, they're opening up for some

264

of their, uh, brands that they're

working with is you can actually

265

retarget by people who watch the game.

266

Which is fascinating.

267

I mean, like, to be able to use that data

in, um, you know, as that, as an audience,

268

and then, be able to segment that down.

269

I mean, that's, that's ridiculous.

270

John: So speaking of that, from

nano and micro to total macro, Tom,

271

any, any, football TV programming,

uh, buys in Insomnia's future?

272

Tom: Not that I know of We're,

uh, we're on the, the nano side

273

of, uh, budget investment at this

point in our, uh, our career.

274

Um,

275

no, I think,

276

John: but got such a cult brand.

277

You can do like, that's, that's

278

Brian: but they can also, but the

thing that I love about Insomnia is

279

that you have, not that you have,

like, just a defined audience, but

280

like, you reach people at these

grassroots levels, at colleges, Okay.

281

Uh, people that are up late, like

you guys have a brand that really

282

sticks with a certain audiences.

283

Like, I don't even, I don't know

that it would even make sense to go

284

that broad, you know, like you guys

are doing things that on such a, a

285

cultural and, and grassroots level

that, um, I don't even know that

286

that would even make sense, you know?

287

Tom: Yeah.

288

I, you know, it, it's a really good point.

289

I think it connects back to the

authenticity that I was trying

290

to talk about earlier, right?

291

Like, we're trying to follow

a lot of kind of cult brands.

292

Strategies and and, you know, really

lean into those traits and yeah,

293

just blasting ourselves across media.

294

You know, mass media isn't

really a way to do that.

295

that being said.

296

We're growing really fast, right?

297

So we're, we're going to add more

and more stores and we're starting to

298

get to that point where we're, we're

tipping a little bit more into mass and

299

we need to, um, the scale at which we

need to move all these stores is a lot

300

harder than we had 100 stores, right?

301

So trying to figure out, like, what are

some of the ways that we can do that?

302

And back to the football question.

303

Um, and actually again, connecting back

to authentic, you know, we invested in

304

a relationship with Justin Jefferson

this year, which was pretty cool.

305

So, he actually came to

306

John: receiver for the Minnesota Vikings.

307

Tom: he's, uh,

308

Brian: the eagle should have drafted

years ago, but yes, go ahead.

309

Tom: Yes.

310

Yeah.

311

Well, you guys, you know what?

312

You guys got plenty of

receivers at this point and stop

313

Brian: It all worked out, but go

314

Tom: also, yeah, but anyway,

Justin's, you know, he went to LSU.

315

He became a fan of insomnia there.

316

And, uh, you know, he reached out

and was like, I love insomnia.

317

I want to buy insomnia, like franchises

and we don't franchise, but he was

318

like, I'm all in on this brand.

319

Like, we, okay.

320

How do we figure this out?

321

So I was like, okay, this works.

322

you know, we're doing something with

him where it's kind of a bridge between.

323

know, some of the micro stuff we're

doing and a little bit more mass, right?

324

We're leveraging, we created a

whole campaign, a video campaign.

325

It's running kind of when

football airs on TV, but we're

326

running it on mobile and social.

327

So really trying to like pair up like,

Hey, cookies make every event better and

328

have Justin kind of be that, you know, the

receiver, if you will, of our deliveries,

329

um, at all these different times.

330

So, um, really fun little thing,

but I think it starts to, connect

331

and bridge the gap there for us.

332

John: Yeah.

333

Brian: guys have stores up in Minnesota?

334

Tom: We do.

335

Yeah, opened our, our, in St.

336

Paul, we got one in Minneapolis,

337

John: you know where have, you

know where you don't have one, Tom?

338

Tom: Where's that?

339

Burlington, Vermont?

340

Ah,

341

John: my daughter keeps asking,

342

Tom: it's, dude, I got,

okay, good news for you.

343

One coming there,

344

John: news.

345

We're breaking news on the, uh,

Snap Decisions podcast here.

346

Tom: John, even more exciting, about

three weeks, we're opening one in South

347

Lake Tahoe at the Steps Heavenly Resort.

348

Yes, and I know you've been there before.

349

It's,

350

Brian: Oh, oh,

351

Tom: gonna be, gonna be pretty cool,

352

John: I volunteer to be an

on slope ambassador for that.

353

Is that, is that one of your cookies?

354

That can be like a hot cookie shed

at the bottom of the mountain.

355

Tom: No, it's, it's actually like more,

I don't know if you've been to Southlake

356

before, but it's, it's a pretty like

vibrant downtown and it's where there's a

357

bunch of casinos there cause there's right

on the, uh, edge of Nevada and California.

358

So it's kind of strange, like

heavenly, the mountain and the gondola

359

goes down and then you get off it

and there's like bars and casino.

360

It's like a party vibe So we're

kind of more in that scene, not

361

John: Oh, that's very

362

Tom: right on the mountain.

363

Yeah.

364

So.

365

John: fantastic.

366

well, yeah, I just, I do have

to share a story with you.

367

I went to visit my daughter in Burlington

few weeks ago, while I was at her

368

apartment, her roommate and her boyfriend

left, drove 25 minutes to another town,

369

brought back a competitive cookie.

370

Tom: Terrible one.

371

John: And, and proceeded to, you

know, spend a lot of time kind

372

of evaluating which of these six

different cookies were better.

373

And, daughter kept looking at

me like, gotta tell your buddy

374

Tom to get a store up here.

375

I'm like, yeah, I've told him.

376

So that's great.

377

She'll be very happy.

378

Tom: Coming

379

John: also says there's no food 10 o'clock

except for a kebab stand and that's it.

380

Tom: could work for us.

381

I mean, kind business

382

Brian: to do?

383

do?

384

A follow up from

385

John: We have road trips popping

up every time we do a podcast.

386

Right.

387

Tom: That would be From

Burlington, Vermont.

388

Brian: based of these podcasts.

389

John: We're gonna, we're gonna go to a

Barnes and Noble and then have cookies.

390

Tom: it.

391

Brian: So, so Tom, um, what's, uh, what's

Justin Jefferson's favorite cookie?

392

Tom: he likes our salted caramel.

393

Um, and I think a snickerdoodle.

394

I should, I should have remembered

this top of mine, I'm pretty sure

395

those are the top two he really likes.

396

Brian: You guys had a, an interesting

moment a couple of years ago.

397

Maybe you can talk about it with

the New York mats, even though I,

398

I, I despise the New York mats.

399

It was a pretty cool story.

400

You want to talk about

that for a little bit?

401

Tom: Yeah, this was crazy.

402

it was.

403

Let's just set the

stage for where we were.

404

It was the end of February of 2020.

405

So

406

John: Oh

407

Tom: I don't know if anyone remembers,

um, was like three weeks before everyone

408

was like, Oh, COVID is a real thing.

409

And the entire world shut down for, you

know, we all lost two years of life.

410

Anyway.

411

So the New York Mets, uh, on MLB.

412

com, they have, you know, content

for all the different teams.

413

They wrote this article, and it was

basically about how a bunch of the, the

414

young Mets at the time, had this kind of

unofficial thing called the cookie club.

415

And every time they visited a different

city, they, after the game, they would go

416

to their hotel and order insomnia cookies.

417

And they like really

bonded over our cookies.

418

There's a lot of layers here,

which make this so great.

419

One, the article coming out

was pretty cool to Seth.

420

Who's our founder is like the

biggest Mets fan in the world.

421

So when this article came out, he

was basically like, I think I'm done.

422

I don't know that I to do

423

Brian: There's nothing else to achieve.

424

Tom: Yeah.

425

I've had my favorite team of all

time is now actually, you know, the

426

biggest fans of the thing I created.

427

I don't know how I could do any better

than this other than having my four kids.

428

Right.

429

Like that, that was it.

430

So.

431

it was the beginning of something that

we, you know, we tapped into a little

432

bit, but I mentioned the, the February

433

happened, everything kind of, it got

a little choppy for us put that way.

434

And it was a little hard to activate

that in the way that we would have liked

435

John: yeah.

436

Too bad.

437

Tom: genuine, genuinely love.

438

Uh, we've did some things with Jeff

McNeil and, uh, those are great guys.

439

They still love the brand, but

they're all kind of all over the place

440

John: I just googled, and I

see that the Mets finished

441

last in the NL East that year.

442

Just, uh, no, I'm not saying

there's any sort of correlation or,

443

Brian: they ate too many cookies.

444

I don't know.

445

but,

446

he's eaten,

447

Tom: I blame COVID it was 2020

448

Brian: he's sat on the cookies.

449

John: Well talk about authenticity, right?

450

you probably couldn't create

something like that that rung as true

451

than it actually happened amongst

them on their own without coming

452

Brian: this is what I,

this is what I love, right?

453

So you have these moments where,

you know, you plan for God knows

454

how long, you know, way too long.

455

And then you hope somebody likes

something, but then you have these

456

instances like Justin Jefferson loves

your cookie and wants to buy your stores.

457

And then you have the Mets all of a

sudden they have their own cookie club.

458

I mean, how do you and your team

work together to say, Hey, we

459

have to do something right now.

460

What are we going to do?

461

And we were not leaving this room

until we come up with an idea.

462

Tom: I mean, you basically

described what we do.

463

I, uh, I mean, the nice thing

about our brand and our team and

464

our company and leadership is that

we are incredibly nimble, right?

465

Like we're on top of that stuff.

466

And like, we're getting

cookies to those guys.

467

Same day.

468

We're reaching out to their publicist.

469

We're trying to figure out where are they,

470

?

Like, where are their families?

471

Who can we send cookies to?

472

It's kind of like an unwritten part

of everybody's job, it's not in a job

473

description, but it's expected that

like, again, it goes back to like

474

amplifying that authentic love, right?

475

Like if it's there, we try to pour more

gasoline on the fire and let it go.

476

but yeah, we just try to

be as fast as possible.

477

I think

478

John: Remember when that was

a thing in marketing, the idea

479

of like real time marketing?

480

It sounds like you guys have

just really operationalized that.

481

So Tom, you were just talking about,

seizing on those moments of opportunity

482

because you are that cult brand, you

know, with that cult brand has a lot

483

of opportunities, which you just talked

about, but also, I would guess a lot

484

of responsibility in some ways, right?

485

Where You know, you can't screw it up.

486

How do you know when you're maybe

going too far into like having

487

mass appeal and you need to kind

of stay true to your cultish roots,

488

how do you, is that just a art?

489

Tom: It's probably a little bit of art

and a little bit of science, right?

490

Like I think for us, it's about

really staying true to our brand

491

promise and essence, like we're

really pretty obsessed with that.

492

You know, we, we say our, our

brand promise or essence is

493

warm, delicious, delivered, and.

494

And own the night, like those

four things are everything for us.

495

Right.

496

So it's not to say that we don't

want to go mass, ? Like I want

497

everyone to know insomnia cookies.

498

, I don't expect everybody in the country

or world to be a customer, but certainly

499

growing the brand is important.

500

I think doing so in a way

that's responsible within

501

the, guardrails of who we are,

502

.

And not.

503

You know, bending or, being

different just to pander to the

504

masses or whatever that might be.

505

Right.

506

So it's really about looking

back to the business makes sense.

507

Does it feel right?

508

, does it connect to our brand

promise and our platform and all

509

that type of stuff, does it feel.

510

normal and authentic and fun and cool.

511

and if not, we'll pass on things.

512

I mean, I pass on stuff all

the time, like the time.

513

It's crazy.

514

but we do try to try

to grow the right way.

515

And then, there's other things

that I think we're still trying to

516

work through from that perspective.

517

Brian: So, speaking of owning the

night, you have some really cool

518

stuff that you do, where, you are

going out in the middle of the night

519

to, you know, get everybody fired up.

520

Can you talk a little bit about some of

the stuff you guys have done with that?

521

Tom: Yeah, sure.

522

So, um, you know, on the night

become this kind of like mantra

523

mantra a couple of years ago.

524

And We were, I guess it was

back in probably 18 or 19.

525

We were, you know, trying to

really understand, how the college

526

demographic affects our business.

527

Right.

528

So let's say 70 percent of our

stores are somehow connected

529

or tied to a university, right?

530

So it's either like right on

that main street of that classic

531

university town, or we're in a city.

532

, right next to Drexel or Temple or

Columbia University or whatever.

533

. So very much connected to university,

just like how the, the company started.

534

and we were kind of trying to figure

out like how many freshmen or, you know,

535

first year students are coming into our

system every year and what can we do?

536

To, bring them in to our

whole community of insomniacs.

537

How do we welcome thousands of

new potential customers into

538

our system every single year,

539

John: guess, free samples?

540

Tom: that's a big part of it, my friends,

Yeah, so then, you know, we kind of like

541

we're throwing a lot of things against the

wall and you know, we're like, it would

542

be really cool to do something at night.

543

So long story shorter, longer.

544

we basically came up with

this concept of the PJ party.

545

So this is now I think

we just our fifth one.

546

And it is basically a late night grand

opening style celebration at every single

547

one of our stores across the globe.

548

So we're 265 ish stores right now,

including in England and Canada.

549

And one one night, In September, we host

a blowout party at every single store.

550

So, you know, we're open all day long,

but then at nine o'clock at night or

551

eight o'clock at night, whatever time

we decide, we basically like turn on

552

all these crazy deals, we give out

swag, we change the music and playlists.

553

We change the lighting,

we decorate the stores.

554

and what, what happens is the coolest

thing was the first year we did it.

555

This was kind of like.

556

We're like, okay, we're

rolling the dice on this.

557

spending a lot of money on like these

crazy uniforms that looked like PJs

558

and all this swag that we're going

to give out and all this marketing.

559

And I was like, this is either going

to be amazing or fall completely flat.

560

And I'll never forget.

561

I was having dinner with the leadership

team because we were going to go

562

visit a bunch of stores that night.

563

And we are, our, uh, email started

blowing up and we looked at our phones and

564

realized that all the stores were taking

pictures of the lines that were forming

565

in front of their stores, even though

the stores were open just to wait for all

566

the stuff we were giving away and stuff.

567

So it was the coolest thing ever.

568

So and like everyone jumped in and we had

hundreds of emails going back and forth

569

with these pictures of just students.

570

Oh, and by the way.

571

The whole thing is the pajama party.

572

So you're wearing pajamas, right?

573

So there's these kids dressed in

crazy pajamas across the country.

574

That to me is the embodiment

of own the night, right?

575

It's like, how do you take that as

a brand platform and put it into an

576

activation and make it memorable.

577

, I've been now to, you know,

five years of these things.

578

And I, we typically travel around

the country and go visit a market

579

and hit as many stores as we can.

580

And I'll talk to tons of students and like

so many of them, it's their first time.

581

ever interacting with the brand, right?

582

So like talk about an emotional

long term bond, right?

583

like

584

yeah, like, yeah.

585

And like the stories and, uh, just

the emotion that you get out these

586

customers is, is pretty cool.

587

Brian: Yeah.

588

You know, I, uh, for our listeners,

I've affectionately called Tom

589

the world's oldest millennial.

590

Yes, he, he, Tom, you, it's like

you never left college in some ways.

591

And, uh, this

592

Tom: Right.

593

I think you have to update that to Gen Z.

594

Now I've grown out of millennial.

595

Brian: you may have grown

out of it, but I don't

596

Tom: Or millennials

growing out of me, I think.

597

Brian: Yeah, yeah.

598

Okay.

599

All right.

600

Yeah, we've moved along.

601

But, uh, the other, the other really

cool thing that you guys have done is

602

the, uh, the innovation cookie lab that

you've done in, in, in Philadelphia.

603

And, uh, can you talk a little bit

about kind of where that came from

604

and, uh, how you guys have used that?

605

And, uh, it's a great experiment,

experiential, place, but, you guys are

606

doing a lot of cool things with that.

607

Tom: Yeah.

608

The cookie lab, was born

out of COVID actually.

609

And it was kind of a crazy thing.

610

I'll try to keep this story shortish,

but Seth was like, we should.

611

out a way we let's build

an experiential brand.

612

And again, this is when people are

stuck in their homes and not going

613

out and wearing masks and, you know,

people are just talking over zoom.

614

Right.

615

He's like, we should build an experiential

brand where you can make your own cookie.

616

And then we'll take all the data

from the different toppings they

617

pick and the flavor profiles.

618

And we're going to use that

to help inform our innovation.

619

And I said, you're out of your mind.

620

We're in the middle of

COVID, like is terrible idea.

621

John: I I think what you meant

to say, Tom, was great idea boss.

622

Tom: right.

623

Um, which is exactly what I said.

624

No.

625

So we, we kind of like, we

were thrown around this idea.

626

I'm like, this is a really fun idea,

but how do we actually pull it off?

627

Oh.

628

And the other thing was like.

629

You know, we want it to be a speakeasy.

630

So we want it to be within a

brand, literally and physically.

631

So we have an insomnia cookies, normal

cookie place, and then there's a secret

632

door and it brings you into this insomnia

on steroids, um, and innovation factory.

633

So that's honestly how it was born.

634

we were going to originally

do it just as a digital play.

635

Like, can we do this online and let

people kind of like mix and match and

636

play with the different flavors and

toppings and all that type of stuff.

637

and then we said, let's build

this thing and let's do something.

638

That's really cool.

639

So we built this thing in South Philly,

right across from Pat's and Gino.

640

So kind of like the late night.

641

You know, food Mecca of Philadelphia.

642

Um, so a good spot for that.

643

Lots of late night, exposure,

lots of late night tourists.

644

Um, and certainly our core demo as well.

645

. So it's a normal store.

646

There's a bookcase, which you have

to say a secret password to it

647

opens up and then you go into the

back and as a customer, you can.

648

Build your own cookie.

649

Kind of like you build a Sunday, you can

do these crazy over the top milkshakes,

650

and, um, it's just a really awesome,

deeper experience with the brand.

651

Brian: Yeah, so, just to give

listeners a little bit more background.

652

So, so your, your CEO and founder,

Seth Berkowitz, went to Penn, built

653

the company at Penn, started selling

cookies out of his dorm room.

654

That's kind of the backstory there.

655

So the, the lab having the bookshelf

and kind of being the secret pathway

656

from the regular store into the,

the cookie innovation lab, , is on

657

brand is on part of the, the lore of

insomnia, which is, which is great.

658

Tom: exactly.

659

It can, I mean, if, and if you look at

what's on the bookshelf, really connects

660

back to like Seth's dorm room, right?

661

Like.

662

There's references to Halo, which is the

video game he was playing when the idea

663

came up and, you know, other silly things

like little connections to Penn and kind

664

of inside jokes and stuff like that.

665

So yeah, there's like a

nice connection there.

666

You know, it's a, it's a

brand within the brand.

667

it's a extension of our brand, but

it's also part of, the company that

668

we're really trying to understand,

you know, what does this mean for

669

us and how can we leverage it?

670

And does it have legs to

go beyond Philly and more?

671

Brian: Awesome.

672

John: really, really cool, I,

I went there for the opening

673

night and, uh, thanks to you.

674

And when you were talking about the

lines outside of the stores for pajama

675

party night, that's what it was.

676

It was amazing with very little

promotion, just a line out the

677

door, people clamoring to get in.

678

And then once you get in, just a

very cool experience for, the brand

679

that kind of was felt, it felt very

different, but very much a part of

680

what you're, you're creating and

yeah, it was a great activation.

681

Brian: And the location in South

Philly, like around Pat's and

682

June's is perfect because people

are there all hours of the night.

683

Everything's 24 7 there, so perfect

spot for the brand that, really

684

leans into the late nights, late

night crowd, so that's awesome.

685

and the other cool thing is you guys are

trying out new products and stuff there.

686

And so I want to talk to you about, new

product categories and how do you stay

687

within the universe of who you are?

688

And, we talk about being careful

with the right types of media and,

689

and things like that with the brand.

690

But how do you, terms of the

product itself, how do you

691

make sure you don't go too far?

692

You guys have added products for

ice cream and milkshakes and, and

693

brownies and things like that.

694

how do you make sure you're not going

too far with the product itself?

695

Tom: Yeah.

696

So similarly to, kind of the question

around cult and mass marketing, we kind

697

of take that same approach to products.

698

So my, I run the product team

as well here, and we basically

699

have like a two-word mentality

and that's cookie first.

700

Right.

701

So as we think about.

702

Our products and

extensions of our products.

703

The first thing we say is like, is

this cookie First Does it feel like an

704

authentic extension of our core cookie?

705

So talk about ice cream.

706

We launched, an ice

cream brand, last year.

707

So we, you know, in the past, we'd

always had ice cream in our stores, but

708

it was basically regionally sourced.

709

So you had a lot of inconsistencies.

710

It was hard to promote, you know,

different flavors at different stores.

711

It wasn't great.

712

. And it was like, Oh, the South

likes this flavor of the North.

713

And, you know, depending on the

provider, a wide, um, variety of, of

714

quality and consistency and all that.

715

So we were like, all right,

let's take this into our own

716

hands, make our own ice cream.

717

But how do we make an insomnia?

718

And we said, let's make a cookie first.

719

So we came up with our own ice

cream and every flavor except

720

for vanilla or chocolate.

721

It has our cookies in it.

722

So, uh, you know, cookies and cream

for us is called cookies and dream.

723

And instead of, an Oreo type

cookie, we've got our double

724

chocolate chunk in there.

725

Right.

726

So, salted caramel for us is called

caramillionaire and same thing.

727

It's like caramel ice cream

with our salted caramel.

728

Cookies in there.

729

So we really try to, again,

like ice cream and cookies go

730

together really beautifully.

731

and no one's really kind of gone, gone

all in on, you know, the cookies and ice

732

cream really together within ice cream.

733

Um, so yeah, just using that cookie

first mentality is what is going

734

to keep us kind of within our

735

John: Nice.

736

You know, Tom, yesterday I was watching

TV and I saw a commercial and I feel

737

like the universe sent this to me.

738

I'm kind of getting

ready for this podcast.

739

Dairy Queen running a national

TV ad promoting to dos, just

740

getting burgers and sodas.

741

And I was just like, what are you doing?

742

It blew my mind that, not only was it

not ice cream first for Dairy Queen,

743

it was ice cream non existent, and

it was something completely, I would

744

argue, inadjacent, not adjacent,

745

Brian: Hey Tom, when are you

gonna fire up The hot dog?

746

John: Oh, just like.

747

Tom: I was gonna say, John, you

just ruined my cheesesteak reveal.

748

That's our next big LTO is

749

John: Yeah, more, more news breaking here.

750

This just Insomnia,

launching cheese sticks.

751

Tom: Yeah.

752

Brian: ham

753

Tom: Wiz with.

754

whole thing.

755

Spam.

756

John: we're Scrapple.

757

We're here in Philly.

758

Remember?

759

Brian: But the purple ice cream that

you guys have, talk about on Brandand.

760

I mean, it feels like you, it looks

like you guys and my God, the, the,

761

the chip witch with that ice cream.

762

My God.

763

That's great.

764

Good stuff.

765

John: You got a couple

brand ambassadors here.

766

And by the way, I texted my

daughter saying, Hey, breaking news.

767

Insomnia coming to Burlington.

768

She, and her response is no way

with five exclamation points.

769

.

Tom: She'll, she'll get the Tom Carasona special secret discount code for sure.

770

Brian: That's great.

771

John: Yeah.

772

Thanks.

773

for continuing to break

news here on the podcast.

774

This

775

Brian: love it.

776

Tom: is, why I came on.

777

John: Yeah.

778

What else, what else, what else

should we forward you guys?

779

Tom: Ooh, I don't know.

780

I mean, new stores galore.

781

You know, global expansion

782

Brian: Talk to us about that.

783

So you guys, you guys

went to the UK and Canada.

784

And, uh, I mean, that's,

that's big for you guys.

785

We talk a little bit about,

uh, doing that, but also like

786

the operational part of that.

787

And, and how does that,

how does that work?

788

That's a little bit

different for you guys.

789

You want to talk about that?

790

Tom: Yeah, that's um, So the

international thing is awesome, right?

791

It's kind of a validating moment for

us that this brand can it work in

792

other cultures and other, , countries?

793

so we did quite a bit of work, insights

work in both Canada and, the UK before

794

we even thought of entering the country,

understanding the, Case preferences,

795

the demographics, like what's the

right city to enter in, you know, every

796

type of way you could think of it.

797

We really try to be smart about this.

798

, so we spent a lot of time kind of

figuring out the strategy to, to enter

799

these markets in the appropriate manner.

800

and then we spent a lot of time

figuring out how the heck do we

801

actually operate something like this?

802

Like product, ? How do we

get it there in the UK?

803

There's different, laws and

regulations around the suites and,

804

you know, some of the different.

805

things that are in our cookies, right?

806

So like really have to understand those

markets and also make sure that we're

807

basically re engineering our cookies to

work there and also work for the taste

808

palette of whatever country that we're in.

809

Canada is a little bit easier because it's

Toronto and Toronto is pretty darn close.

810

To the U.

811

S.

812

But same thing like understanding

the cultural differences.

813

you know, the college culture in the U.

814

S.

815

is really unique.

816

It doesn't really exist in the same manner

that anywhere else in the world, right?

817

You don't have the frat system

and the football that's, you know,

818

billion dollar brands, right?

819

The good thing again, is

that the product's great.

820

Right.

821

And people love cookies

and people love ice cream.

822

The hardest thing for us really is trying

to build education around the category.

823

Like, Hey, now you can get warm

cookies delivered late into the night.

824

Like for a lot of people outside of

the U S and outside of the markets

825

that we're in, it's not even a.

826

Thought, ? So there's a bit of

work that we need to put into the

827

category education and then the,

Hey, we're the right brand for you.

828

Brian: Does it all Translate a

little different there in terms

829

of like what you're saying and is

on the night still on the night?

830

John: they, they, they speak

English in England, Brian, don't

831

Brian: I

832

Tom: they do.

833

But, but Brian, to your point,

it's, it's kind of like when you and

834

I worked on that, uh, what was it?

835

We called it like a,

cultural translation, right?

836

Like project where we went through and

took the brand that you and I were working

837

on and worked with every country across

the world, not just to translate it.

838

in language, but also to make

sure it's culturally relevant.

839

I think we did the same thing, even down

to little things like we worked with

840

the team, a really talented creative

director in, uh, the UK who happens to

841

work for our partners, Krispy Kreme and

They got really, um, passionate about

842

the brand and they took all of our brand

assets and essence and just tweak them

843

to be, to feel authentic to the UK,

even all the way down to Manchester.

844

Like there's certain ways

that people say things there.

845

Um, you know, in the, in the U S we have

like a giant sign that says open late and

846

I guess people use the phrase late, late.

847

So like there it's open late, late.

848

So like just like little things

like that where it just builds and

849

kind of deepens the authenticity is.

850

Is, um, how we try to do it.

851

John: Wow.

852

I love how attuned you all are to

both that, like you said, the art and

853

the science of maintaining your, your

brand, know, your brand reality has,

854

it's really, it's, it's fascinating

to hear all these, , big and small

855

examples where you're doing that.

856

Tom: Cool.

857

Thank you.

858

It's

859

Brian: So, so tell us the,

860

John: Well, thank you for the

opportunity to go do some secret

861

shopping in Manchester and Tahoe.

862

Welcome to the

863

Tom: Listen, it's a cool city.

864

It really is.

865

Brian: Tell us about your, your, your

partnership with the Flyers and the

866

Wells Fargo Center here in Philly.

867

I feel like that's a really good step

for you guys in terms of visibility,

868

especially in the region, but also,

operationally too, you know, working

869

with a company known as Aramark and,

having to, Rely on a partner to do

870

some of the operational things that

you guys have traditionally done.

871

How's that?

872

How's that been?

873

Tom: Yeah, it, um, it's been great.

874

I think this was one of these things

that to us and, you know, we kind of

875

were debating this for a long time,

but I had some, I think we had some

876

passion around arenas in particular

as something that could work for us.

877

Right.

878

So again, like feels right.

879

Like these are places where

typically it's cold, right?

880

Like you have, you have, ice skating

and hockey and they have to keep it

881

cold in their 365 days a year, even if

there's a concert or a basketball game.

882

and our cookies are served warm and,

you know, like we were interested in

883

sports, but it felt like arenas were the

right space for us, one because of the

884

frequency and two because of, you know,

we're not serving a warm cookie in 100

885

degree weather and outside in Florida.

886

Right.

887

So it was a simple thing, but

kind of an important thing.

888

And then, yeah, like for us,

partnering with the Wells Fargo Center

889

and the the flyers in particular.

890

was really about, does this work for us?

891

So we wanted to do it in our, our

home market, you know, the flyers are

892

owned by Comcast, so the building's

owned by Comcast and, Aramark operates

893

the building and we're the brand.

894

So it was kind of like all

three companies are right here.

895

Brian: By the way, for anybody at

home, mean, this like vortex of the

896

universe of Tom Carasona who worked for

Comcast then Aramark and now Insomnia.

897

I

898

John: it's

899

Brian: triangle of like the,

uh, it's the Bermuda triangle

900

John: You are right where you, you

are right where you belong, sir.

901

Tom: Yes.

902

So, um, I probably

dangerously knowledgeable.

903

Brian: Jay Wright runs

up and gets a cookie.

904

Tom: Yeah, exactly.

905

Um,

906

John: He's a walking

Venn diagram, this guy.

907

Tom: definitely, definitely found

the overlapping circles there.

908

Um, but yeah, again, like, you

know, as we, so all that true, but

909

more importantly in Philadelphia,

it's our most established market.

910

We've been here obviously since day

one, but also like, if you look at

911

the map of how many stores we have.

912

It's the most kind of like

penetrated marks that we have.

913

So as we start to think about,

our marketing in the past

914

is like hyper local, right?

915

You draw a circle around a store at

Westchester university, and that's where

916

you're marketing to right now, we have

stores in Westchester and Phoenix bill

917

and Contra Hawkins and downtown and,

you know, sorry, center city and South

918

Philly and soon to be Cherry Hill, right?

919

So you're filling out the DMA.

920

You need to find ways to

actually communicate and connect

921

to more people across the D.

922

M.

923

A.

924

So this is a great way to do that,

both within the arena itself, but

925

then also with the sponsorship

that comes with that, right?

926

Brian: Awesome.

927

so, so let's talk about Aramark.

928

So Aramark is a company that, that

operates for, uh, for stadiums, for

929

hospitals, for schools, as we used

to call it, because I used to work at

930

Aramark with Tom, for anyone looking

out there, uh, cradle to grave.

931

you know, one of the big projects that

we worked on together and, uh, was a

932

big part of, of, of both of our careers

is the, uh, the rebrand of Aramark.

933

And, you know, Aramark is

such a giant behemoth company.

934

And, as a marketer, there's these really

interesting projects that you work on

935

for like a singular brand that, that,

you might have a very specific mission.

936

And Aramark is so.

937

So if you do one thing, it

could impact everything.

938

So can you talk a little bit about,

remaking a brand for a company like

939

Aramark and what, what are the things

that popped up to you as you were, you

940

know, refreshing a brand like that?

941

Tom: Yeah, I mean, that was an incredible,

it's so funny, like to look back at

942

that, know, you're in it every day.

943

You don't realize like how much of

a massive impact you have until now.

944

Today I drive by our mark trucks

with the branding that we worked

945

Brian: all the time,

946

Tom: Right.

947

And it's like, Oh yeah,

that's kind of cool.

948

Like we, we did that.

949

Right.

950

And for me, I think I'd like, honestly,

I don't think I was a little bit

951

naive at the time in terms of like

how big of a project that actually

952

was and what we were going into.

953

And I was thinking, yeah, like Iron

Mark feels a little old and dated

954

and like we need like a refresh

look and like a new vibe, right?

955

Like let's do that.

956

And like, that to me sounds.

957

doable, right?

958

and for the most part it was, but the

process of going through, you know, a

959

company that was essentially like 12 or

13 different businesses, plus another

960

like 12 or 13 different countries

that operated kind of as completely

961

different brands and businesses

like getting them on all on board.

962

So again, like for me, I was

learning every day and kind of.

963

Unpeeling this onion that

I didn't even know right?

964

Like, like, oh my God,

like there's more things.

965

I think the most, most intimidating

thing, and I'll never forget this,

966

was the trucks and like sitting,

967

Brian: bring that up.

968

Tom: sitting with the CFO and

my boss at the time and being

969

like, How are we going to attack?

970

I don't even remember what the number was.

971

It was like tens of thousands

of trucks across the globe.

972

And like, we're going to do

these this quarter, and we're

973

going to do those that quarter.

974

And these trucks just got guns.

975

So like, that was mind blowing to

976

John: Yeah, because there are several

thousand dollars apiece to rewrap.

977

Tom, when you, think about some of the

things you did at Aramark and, you know,

978

you say that you, were maybe naive

enough to not realize how big a thing

979

it was that you were tackling., I got

to think that kind of not knowing what

980

you're biting off is where some of the

magic happens, ? When you're like, yeah,

981

you're not constrained by, , reality

because you're a little naive to it.

982

Tom: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

983

And I think that that's the cool thing

about All of our jobs as marketers, ? You

984

really get to affect, especially when

you work on brands that are national

985

or global, is that, your, your job is

to basically leave them at a better

986

place than when you started, right?

987

And, it's a privilege

to be able to do that.

988

And when you're in it,

you're going work, right?

989

It's like I'm, I'm in, I'm

answering emails and I'm getting

990

project deadlines and I'm.

991

Getting feedback on things and not

wanting to hear that feedback, right?

992

Like it's all that stuff.

993

And then you look back and like, Oh,

like how we actually did a ton of stuff.

994

How did that actually happen?

995

Right?

996

Like it's, it I enjoy these

kinds of conversations.

997

It allows me to look back and be

like, Oh, wow, that was pretty cool.

998

And we, you know, we, we worked on tons

of things that still are having impact.

999

Like I

00:43:14,662 --> 00:43:17,942

John: Well, I hope you, I hope you

continue to have that opportunity to kind

00:43:17,942 --> 00:43:23,182

of attack stuff without full knowledge

of like how insane it might be you

00:43:23,182 --> 00:43:24,562

know, it always stays fresh like that.

00:43:24,632 --> 00:43:24,992

Tom: Yeah.

00:43:25,023 --> 00:43:25,153

Me

00:43:25,273 --> 00:43:27,343

John: we'll, we'll, we'll have you

back on the podcast and you can

00:43:27,343 --> 00:43:30,573

tell us about, you know, nine more

activations and how cool they were.

00:43:30,695 --> 00:43:31,295

Tom: I would love that.

00:43:32,915 --> 00:43:35,720

John: Regular guest, Tom Carasona.

00:43:36,175 --> 00:43:37,785

Tom: I'll apologize to your listeners now.

00:43:40,184 --> 00:43:43,904

Brian: So, Tom, I'd love to talk about

just, you know, real, real quickly.

00:43:43,941 --> 00:43:45,211

what drew you to marketing?

00:43:45,221 --> 00:43:46,391

How did you get into it?

00:43:46,411 --> 00:43:50,630

I know, you know, you start, you went

to Villanova, you, you jumped into

00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:54,558

tyranny, the agency in Philadelphia, and

then you came to Comcast, but what made

00:43:54,558 --> 00:43:55,988

you think this is the right way to go?

00:43:56,507 --> 00:43:57,217

Tom: question.

00:43:57,287 --> 00:44:01,597

I think probably a lame

answer for you, honestly.

00:44:01,668 --> 00:44:07,386

So, I mean, I was always, as a kid, like

kind of a, I'd like won the art awards.

00:44:07,386 --> 00:44:10,396

It was probably like

more creative mindset.

00:44:10,416 --> 00:44:13,506

And like, I enjoyed thinking

creatively and doing.

00:44:13,707 --> 00:44:14,787

creative type things.

00:44:14,787 --> 00:44:17,763

And I grew up on Long Island

kind of in the shadow of like the

00:44:17,803 --> 00:44:19,193

advertising capital of the world.

00:44:19,371 --> 00:44:22,561

So as a kid and like going into

college, I was like, that would be

00:44:22,561 --> 00:44:27,013

cool to like do ads one day, you

know, like that seems like a cool job.

00:44:27,068 --> 00:44:28,942

And, that's kind of how it started.

00:44:29,002 --> 00:44:32,212

You know, like I wanted to do

something that I remember like my mom

00:44:32,212 --> 00:44:34,832

growing up was like, you should do

something that makes you really happy.

00:44:34,872 --> 00:44:37,860

Like, don't worry about, How much money

you're going to make or whatever, but

00:44:37,860 --> 00:44:41,410

like find something you're going to

happy and you'll be successful at that

00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,000

and the money will come and whatever.

00:44:43,010 --> 00:44:43,360

Right.

00:44:43,650 --> 00:44:46,070

So, I, I tried to follow that passion.

00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:49,814

I thought I actually wanted to

be in, production, like be like a

00:44:49,824 --> 00:44:52,999

producer, like a TV producer or a

movie producer, you know, making

00:44:53,059 --> 00:44:54,709

documentary films or whatever.

00:44:54,709 --> 00:44:57,499

And, I did an internship and

I realized that wasn't for me.

00:44:57,637 --> 00:45:01,907

And the next thing I knew, you

know, I graduated college and, um, I

00:45:01,907 --> 00:45:04,457

won't bore you with all the details,

but I got my first job actually,

00:45:04,517 --> 00:45:06,507

uh, in New York at an agency.

00:45:06,577 --> 00:45:07,857

And, it was cool.

00:45:07,867 --> 00:45:12,301

, I got immediate exposure to like

massive global brands, Seeing the

00:45:12,301 --> 00:45:15,361

production process, seeing the media

strategy process, all that type of stuff.

00:45:15,361 --> 00:45:17,601

And I just like, from

that point on, I loved it.

00:45:17,601 --> 00:45:19,841

And then from there, I was

like, okay, how do I get more

00:45:19,928 --> 00:45:21,358

control and influence on that?

00:45:21,358 --> 00:45:23,788

And that's when I moved to the,

to the client side of things.

00:45:23,963 --> 00:45:27,479

Brian: It's so important for people to

realize that like, it's okay to change

00:45:27,479 --> 00:45:31,979

ideas, you know, it's okay to like,

I want to do this and then I do that.

00:45:31,979 --> 00:45:37,823

And and so I, I love the story

of you wanting to do production.

00:45:37,903 --> 00:45:40,983

And, you know, I was a

telecommunications major and I.

00:45:41,383 --> 00:45:44,403

Went into writing and communications

and marketing and it's just kind

00:45:44,403 --> 00:45:47,563

of fascinating of like, Hey, I'm

going to do this and then you're

00:45:47,563 --> 00:45:48,703

just going to follow the flow.

00:45:48,703 --> 00:45:49,713

You never know what's going to happen.

00:45:49,818 --> 00:45:50,218

Tom: Yeah.

00:45:50,418 --> 00:45:53,838

Like, you know, I talked to interns

or, you know, people are like, Oh, can

00:45:53,838 --> 00:45:55,818

I talk to you about my, my, my future?

00:45:55,818 --> 00:45:56,628

I'm a college student.

00:45:56,888 --> 00:45:58,858

And , one of the things

I always say is like,

00:45:59,088 --> 00:46:01,618

John: No.

00:46:01,628 --> 00:46:02,188

Tom: absolutely.

00:46:02,188 --> 00:46:02,418

No,

00:46:02,418 --> 00:46:03,288

I refuse

00:46:03,598 --> 00:46:04,818

John: very, I'm far too busy.

00:46:05,138 --> 00:46:06,018

Tom: very important.

00:46:06,038 --> 00:46:07,458

The cookie world is

00:46:08,138 --> 00:46:10,468

John: Saving, saving the world

one cookie at a time, kid.

00:46:10,478 --> 00:46:11,128

Tom: Yeah.

00:46:11,198 --> 00:46:11,748

I mean, this

00:46:11,843 --> 00:46:12,543

Brian: Taco chip at a

00:46:12,718 --> 00:46:12,988

Tom: here.

00:46:13,618 --> 00:46:14,508

John: Go, Google it.

00:46:14,688 --> 00:46:15,218

Sorry, Tom.

00:46:15,218 --> 00:46:16,758

What do you, what do you,

what's the advice you give?

00:46:16,813 --> 00:46:20,788

Tom: just say that, it's just

as important to , understand

00:46:20,788 --> 00:46:22,038

what you don't like, right?

00:46:22,058 --> 00:46:25,818

In some ways, more important, like that

learning experience to me of , going

00:46:25,818 --> 00:46:29,868

to an internship for whatever a year or

six months and being like, this is not

00:46:29,868 --> 00:46:32,268

what I want to do was really important.

00:46:32,318 --> 00:46:35,713

Because if I didn't do that, then

I don't know, I might be you.

00:46:35,733 --> 00:46:38,613

Whatever, editing tapes in a

basement somewhere and miserable.

00:46:38,643 --> 00:46:39,333

I don't know.

00:46:39,403 --> 00:46:42,753

It's okay to not love everything

and it's important to understand,

00:46:42,786 --> 00:46:46,869

that those things are, just as

important as things that you love.

00:46:47,379 --> 00:46:47,669

Brian: All right.

00:46:47,669 --> 00:46:49,339

Well, let's, let's keep moving.

00:46:49,629 --> 00:46:50,579

Awesome stuff.

00:46:50,759 --> 00:46:53,199

Uh, um, what got for us?

00:46:53,544 --> 00:46:54,084

John: What do I have?

00:46:54,254 --> 00:46:57,284

Well, first of all, I have Tom,

thank you so much for joining us.

00:46:57,334 --> 00:47:00,834

Cause, this has been fun to just kind

of shoot the breeze with you and hear

00:47:00,834 --> 00:47:04,461

your insights and kind of where you're,

where you're steering, a very cool brand.

00:47:04,461 --> 00:47:05,431

So thanks for joining us.

00:47:05,636 --> 00:47:06,316

Tom: Well, thank you.

00:47:06,346 --> 00:47:06,896

I love that.

00:47:06,896 --> 00:47:07,746

I love the opportunity.

00:47:07,746 --> 00:47:11,296

I love, uh, love you guys and love

being able to chat with you guys

00:47:11,311 --> 00:47:11,841

John: well,

00:47:12,756 --> 00:47:13,266

Tom: hugs.

00:47:13,821 --> 00:47:14,051

John: right.

00:47:14,051 --> 00:47:17,811

Well, you can stick around and, , add

to Brian's response to, , our

00:47:17,811 --> 00:47:22,441

final segment, the dear, hopelessly

unattainable guest Brian, uh, you,

00:47:22,521 --> 00:47:24,681

most recently asked JLo to join.

00:47:24,721 --> 00:47:28,992

So here is my plea for our next

Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest.

00:47:29,562 --> 00:47:33,388

Dear Steve Martin, you were

funny, charming, and uniquely

00:47:33,388 --> 00:47:34,598

entertaining when I was a kid.

00:47:34,993 --> 00:47:40,074

You've been in show as a comedian, actor,

author, screenplay writer, producer,

00:47:40,074 --> 00:47:42,944

and even musician for over 50 years.

00:47:43,104 --> 00:47:46,044

And you're still funny, charming,

and uniquely entertaining.

00:47:46,187 --> 00:47:49,417

Here at the Snap Decisions Podcast

Empire, we want to hear about the

00:47:49,417 --> 00:47:53,164

choices you've made to stay relevant

While pursuing your passions.

00:47:53,436 --> 00:47:57,636

How did you decide to give up sold

out arenas and a rockstar like

00:47:57,636 --> 00:48:01,549

following, walking away from stand

up comedy to focus on films instead?

00:48:01,612 --> 00:48:05,322

While you're making hit movies like

The Jerk, Three Amigos, Father of the

00:48:05,322 --> 00:48:08,992

Bride, and my favorite Planes, Trains,

and Automobiles, how the hell did you

00:48:08,992 --> 00:48:13,269

find time to become a pia a banjo player

accomplished enough to win a Grammy?

00:48:13,349 --> 00:48:17,269

And finally, how did you talk Selena

Gomez into joining Two Old Farts to

00:48:17,269 --> 00:48:18,889

star in Only Murders in the Building?

00:48:19,057 --> 00:48:21,434

Most of all, Steve, I just

want to hang out with you.

00:48:21,534 --> 00:48:22,584

I think we'd be friends.

00:48:22,657 --> 00:48:25,947

Come join us on Necker Island

with Sir Richard Branson, Michael

00:48:25,947 --> 00:48:27,517

Jordan, Taylor Swift, and J Lo.

00:48:27,767 --> 00:48:30,347

Scheduling will be a bitch,

but they've all said yes.

00:48:30,397 --> 00:48:32,477

Sincerely, your pals, John and Brian.

00:48:32,692 --> 00:48:33,302

Brian: Love it.

00:48:34,012 --> 00:48:34,292

Love

00:48:34,357 --> 00:48:34,507

John: on,

00:48:34,747 --> 00:48:35,577

Tom: That's beautiful.

00:48:35,857 --> 00:48:36,347

I love it.

00:48:36,457 --> 00:48:36,937

I love it.

00:48:37,627 --> 00:48:38,387

John: TOm, thank you.

00:48:38,407 --> 00:48:39,077

This has been great.

00:48:39,127 --> 00:48:41,437

And, uh, I think we'll have

to have you back someday.

00:48:42,237 --> 00:48:47,137

Tom: Uh, listen, I feel very, uh,

awkward and humbled to be part

00:48:47,137 --> 00:48:50,447

of this because your guests have

been like freaking a list people.

00:48:50,487 --> 00:48:50,927

And,

00:48:51,077 --> 00:48:52,627

John: we're just, we're just

getting warmed up, baby.

00:48:52,807 --> 00:48:55,607

Tom: know I'd like, I'm like looking

through my Rolodex and be like,

00:48:55,607 --> 00:48:57,157

who can I help these guys get?

00:48:57,157 --> 00:49:00,397

And I'm like, meanwhile, no,

they're, they're like on fire.

00:49:00,407 --> 00:49:01,537

So I'm, I love it.

00:49:01,537 --> 00:49:05,317

You guys are doing some really fun stuff

and, uh, thanks for thinking of me.

00:49:06,132 --> 00:49:06,292

Brian: it.

00:49:06,697 --> 00:49:08,617

John: keep building that cookie

empire and we'll have you back.

00:49:08,671 --> 00:49:09,441

Tom: Let's do it, man.

00:49:09,671 --> 00:49:10,411

Thanks guys.

00:49:11,131 --> 00:49:11,651

to you later.

00:49:11,661 --> 00:49:12,191

John: you, Brian.

00:49:12,744 --> 00:49:13,154

Tom: Bye.