Val, Luke and Aaron Hedge talked about deconstructing from Christianity, TikTok (and the potential ban) and how those two wildly different things relate — and the lessons on community that these reflections can give us.

03:49 Brief overview of the latest TikTok news

07:16 Defining Deconstruction in Christianity

13:26 Personal Stories of Faith and Doubt

25:20 Navigating Faith and Doubt Without Social Media

32:00 Community in Rural Spaces

37:12 Political Influence in Church

42:06 Discovering TikTok and New Perspectives

47:28 Challenges and Reflections on Deconstruction

Additional reading:

BBC: What does Trump's executive order mean for TikTok and who might buy it?

AP News: How TikTok grew from a fun app for teens into a potential national security threat

User Mag: The Great Creator Reset

Hey, it's Aaron.

2

Other Aaron was busy this week

doing Intrepid City Reporter stuff.

3

So this week on the pod, Val, Luke,

and I dive deep into the topic of

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deconstruction from Christianity.

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The act of questioning your faith

with the goal of determining whether

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you really believe in the form

of faith you've acclimated to.

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We felt it was important to start

this conversation in a community where

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many are suffering from church abuse

and feel like they need a gut check.

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I know you're out there.

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I talked to you in my reporting.

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You're not alone.

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This conversation's context is the back

and forth of the recent TikTok ban.

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Curious how that fits together?

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Listen in.

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. This is Free Range, a co-production

of KYRS and Range Media.

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I'm Range's editor and publisher,

Luke Baumgarten, and you may have

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noticed that voice you heard before

me is not Aaron Sellers, it is in fact

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Range's managing editor, Val Ogier

who is sitting in second chair today.

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Aaron gave Aaron the week off but we

do also have other Aaron, Aaron Hedge,

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our Liberty State Bureau Chief and

Chief Christian Nationalism Reporter.

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Today we're going to talk about

something a little different than

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our usual local news rundown.

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Although it's not that different

than the sort of long discursive

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conversations we tend to have.

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Last week Hedge and Val pitched us on

a conversation about things that, in

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first blush, seem a little far flung.

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The brief and potentially future ban

of the social media platform TikTok,

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and the concept of deconstruction.

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The idea of people of faith, but in the U.

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S.

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most likely and most frequently

Christians, breaking apart and re

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examining their faith, sometimes

falling away from faith completely,

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but also sometimes just finding

a different church to belong to.

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And, you know church chat is not

something we normally do around

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here, but faith is a super important

part of people's lives, and both

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for good and, and sometimes for ill.

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And we don't really spend enough

time talking about it, in my opinion

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and deconstruction is a term that.

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I think happened to me, or I began a

process of when I was literally pre

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teen, like, in my, like, earliest,

some of my earliest memories were

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questioning the church I was raised

in and the trauma that that led to.

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So when these two brought it up the

conversation they wanted to have and

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the way that things like the internet

in general but social media has also

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helped sort of connect people who are

searching and, and looking for either a

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way out of their faith community or, or

for a different and more meaningful and

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kind of faith that's truer to themselves.

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It seemed like a really interesting

topic and I think as I feel increasingly

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cynical as I get older, the I've sort

of, I'm More and more just writing off

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social media in general as a force for

ill in American life and maybe world life.

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But it does also very deeply allow us

to connect with communities of interest

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that we might not otherwise find in our

small towns or in our cities, and so.

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It's a really fascinating conversation

that I'm mostly going to take a back

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seat on as Val and Hedge take foreground.

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You, you know me, so you know I'll

find a way to shoehorn my questions and

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thoughts in there somewhere, but maybe

we'll just let you guys take it away.

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So Hedge, you wanna,

you wanna take it away?

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Yeah, so I think kind of to start

off, might help to just like set the

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table a little bit both in terms of

what's happening with TikTok and kind

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of defining the term deconstruction.

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So Val, can you, can you just tell us like

super broad level, like concisely, like

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what, what's, what's happening right now

with that platform, just so people know

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what we're talking, why we're talking

about this specific platform right now?

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Yeah.

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So at the very, Basic level.

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TikTok is a video sharing platform.

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Hopefully, you know that it's okay

if you don't, it's okay if you don't,

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but it's a video sharing platform.

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And Trump president Donald Trump tried

banning it back in his first term that

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was, you know, carried forward through

different legal and legislative hoops.

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There, I'm not going to go totally

into it, but it was taken down

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for about 16 hours on Saturday.

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Is it fair to say you had a bit of a

meltdown personally when that happened?

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Oh yeah.

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Yeah.

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The last hours of tick tock.

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Like the last days of disco.

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It was like, it was a little bit of

end times, you know, like everybody.

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It was posting videos and you know, just

like not really censoring themselves

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because they were like, well, it's

going to go away anyways, you know?

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But a lot of people were bemoaning, you

know, like feeling censored because it

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was getting banned in the U S people were

trying to find other ways to connect.

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But yeah, so basically the app went

down for like 16 hours and then it

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was brought back up and and there was

a message when it was turned back on

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that was thanking President Trump even

though he had not been inaugurated at

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the time that message went back up.

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So the ban is currently

on a 90 day suspension.

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So anyways, that is super brief, lots

of articles about it, highly we'll,

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we'll link them in our show notes.

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So, you know, why are

we talking about this?

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I, it's, it's, it's, it was really

interesting to me when, when Val

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and I had a conversation, we were

just in the newsroom the other day,

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trying to put out a story and our

conversation veered into Christianity,

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which, which I, you know, report on

pretty closely here around Spokane.

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And Val and I both started talking

about our process of deconstruction

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and it struck me that, like, a lot

of Val's process happened on TikTok.

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Val really cares about TikTok.

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It's an important community to her.

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I'm old.

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I don't care about TikTok.

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My process of deconstruction happened

over a much longer period of time, and it

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was really messy, and I don't really know

if I thought about it as deconstruction.

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But it struck me that those, those two

experiences were very different, and

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I kind of, I grew a little wistful.

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Just briefly, Ed, sorry, let me, can we

start by just defining deconstruction?

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Because I think I was actually

using a different definition of

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deconstruction until maybe an hour ago

when you and I chatted on the phone.

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I had always thought that deconstruction,

largely because of the people I had

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seen who were talking, you know, about

deconstruction, either on social media

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or locally, was about like leaving

Christianity entirely, either becoming

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atheist or finding a new religion.

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But you, you said something that was

really resonant to me that Matt Shea

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is a deconstructed Christian because he

deconstructed his former Catholic faith

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and is now, you know, whatever he is,

it's a sort of form of evangelicalism.

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So can we just start there with

like, what is deconstruction?

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And it's a, you know, it's a term that

comes from postmodernism, but it's

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That's probably something people have

been doing since the Reformation, you

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know, the first time, you know, oh

and even before this when like Martin

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Luther nailed his 99 theses to the

door of that church so maybe let's

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start there before we, the generational

stuff is really, really important, but

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let's maybe start with the definition.

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Yeah, so Let's start with a

little bit of Academy's try to

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get through that really fast.

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Deconstruction is basically a term, it's

a term that was coined by the French

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Algerian philosopher Jacques Derrida.

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Describing ways to unpack texts

in, in different contexts.

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To illustrate the idea that language

doesn't really have the same

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meaning across different situations.

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Because people come to A text or

a thing that's in their life from

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different perspectives, so that's

a kind of just jumping in there.

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That's kind of our whole philosophy of

how we cover the news at range, which is.

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Interesting.

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Deconstructing, yeah.

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No, no, no.

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Like, We're always deconstructing.

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Well, a belief in unobjective, or like the

inability of humans to be objective, yeah.

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Yeah.

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And so, but in the Christian context,

it means just kind of critically

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analyzing the elements of, Yeah.

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Your faith, and that's different

for everybody it can lead people

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to affirm their belief, or it can

lead people to move from one form of

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Christianity to another, or it can

mean leaving the faith altogether.

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For me, it kind of was, it was,

it was the first step in my road

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to becoming an atheist, which

is how I refer to myself today.

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Some Christian apologists see

deconstruction as antithetical

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to Christianity because you know,

the narrow mandate of that faith.

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is that there's one way to get

to heaven, and that's through

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accepting Christ as your Savior.

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And if you begin the process of

deconstruction, like, there's not,

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you don't know what's gonna happen

after you do that, and there's

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not really a set place to land.

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And there's a Christian apologist

named Alan Jameson I think he's,

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He might be from New Zealand don't

quote me on that but he did some

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research in New Zealand and he defines

deconstruction in the Christian context.

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I'm just going to read a quote

from his book, A Churchless Faith.

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The deconstruction of, and he's talking

about Christians, the deconstruction

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of their previously received faith.

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leads people engaged in this

process to successively examine the

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individual components of their faith.

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People engaged in deconstruction

of their faith remove each article

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of the belief and value system of

their received faith and submit it

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to a process of ongoing reflection.

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This process involves a

questioning and scrutinizing of

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the particular belief or value.

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The important aspect of this process

is that each component of their

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faith is critiqued on the basis of

whether the individual will, will

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appropriate it as part of their own

personal belief or value system.

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So, somebody's just asking,

like, is this true to me?

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Are these elements of

Christianity true to me?

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It doesn't mean you lose your

faith, which that's, that's, that's

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a different thing that Christian

apologists refer to as de conversion.

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The difference is that deconstruction

is a process, de conversion is a

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potential outcome of that process.

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So that's kind of like

the high level Definition.

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Yeah, definition of deconstruction.

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I think it's really interesting just

a really quick, like, Off road real

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quick really interesting that you say

that a lot of like Christian pastors

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think that, or there's a belief that

deconstructing is like antithetical to

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Christianity because like there is parts

of Christianity that believe in like

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once prayed, always saved theology where,

you know, you know, even if, if you, uh,

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And I know a lot of different, like

different people have different beliefs

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on that, but it's kind of interesting

that there are, there, there's that

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side of it, and then there's the

side that does not hold any space for

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questions So yeah, that was just like

a little tangent that I wanted to chat.

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Well, and also, it's, it's important to

say, this is, so, when you say something

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like Christian apologist, an apologist

is just somebody who defends a belief

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that they have, so like I, whenever

I'm trying to get Val to care about

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basketball, for example, and I, and I, I

am a basketball apologist in that moment.

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It feels to me, and I guess like, are you

using apologists, or when you're saying

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Christian apologists, are you talking

about the sort of biblical literalist

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strain of Christianity writ large,

where it's the folks who are like, and

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this is the church that I grew up in,

where it's like, whatever you read in

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the Bible is the unadorned Word of God,

passed down through man should be taken

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at face value, and reflected upon, but

not questioned and certainly any, you

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know, Differences or conflicts between

scriptures or books is an inability of

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man to discern God's true will and not

The fact that this was written across

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the, a book that was written across

centuries for different communities that,

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and then like, kind of brought together.

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Is that, is that fair to say?

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Yeah, I think that, I think that's the

general perception of apologists, and

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there's a, they, they exist on a spectrum

you know, there's, they, I, the, the,

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the form of apology that, of Christian

apologetics that I most frequently come

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into contact with is like, there are,

like, the parts of the Bible that are

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descriptive are to be taken literally.

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So the creation story is

a literal, like, six days.

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It's not a parable.

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It's not a myth.

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Whereas like, Then there's,

like, different categories

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of literature in the Bible.

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There's, there's poetry, and

that's the Psalms and the Proverbs.

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And that's to be taken as, as metaphor.

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And it's hard to, it's hard

to parse those things out.

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But generally, yes Christian apologists

are defending they're defending their,

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their faith through argument rather than

Rather than, like, believing in something

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that they can't prove is true, so it's

like, they're trying to get people on

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the same page by convincing them that

it's true through logic and reason.

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The debate club kids?

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Yeah, essentially.

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Yeah.

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Okay, so so back to why we're talking

about TikTok today so for me, I

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started deconstructing back in 2019.

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And I got on Tik TOK

around that same time.

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I think I started questioning and

deconstructing before I got on

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Tik TOK and then I got on Tik TOK

and then the pandemic happened.

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And then I was on Tik TOK a lot.

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And so that was a big part

of my deconstruction journey.

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But for you hedge, like,

You didn't have that.

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And I really like what you called

it during our conversation.

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The conversation that spurred this show

that I had an off ramp or that TikTok

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provided like an off ramp for my faith.

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And so really like, can you tell

us a bit how, about how, and when

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you deconstructed and what were

some of those big moments for you?

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Yeah, it's it was a really just reflecting

on it is very strange because it's not,

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it, I don't think of it in a linear

way, and it was just, and it, and my

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deconstruction, I would not have called it

deconstruction while it was happening it

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wasn't intentional in the way most folks

describe deconstruction, especially within

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that sort of original Derrida framework.

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I don't, I don't have a good way

of thinking about what happened

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when, or really any timeline.

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There are significant events.

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I know that I started questioning my

faith when I was around 17, and didn't

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really start calling myself an atheist

until I was in my mid thirties, so.

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Really quick, not to like, intentionally

age you, but what time, or what

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year was it when you were 17?

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Let's see, I was 17 in 2002.

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Where cars are at.

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Did we have cars?

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Well, we didn't have Kohler

yet, but the cars were there.

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Okay.

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No, I was 17 in 2002.

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Okay, cool.

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I just want to, like, kind of track.

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Yeah, Because we're talking about

Social media is a part of this,

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and the internet is a part of this.

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Those things are very much As a guy who

stayed up until midnight the day the

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World Wide Web went live, when I was

in 8th grade I can trace my growth as a

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human being to how much time I spend in

front of a computer screen, honestly.

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Yeah, and I didn't get on social

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So, social media was not, it

kind of came into my life.

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And I didn't think of it, I never

thought of it as part of my,

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like, even related to my faith.

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And I, like, I don't think

it really influenced the

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way that I thought about it.

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But I was, you know, I remember,

I remember being, there are

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some significant moments.

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I remember being in my undergrad and just

feeling really bad about myself for not

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knowing whether I was actually saved.

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And there was this period of time

where, like, there was this guy on

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campus, he was an evangelist he wasn't

a student, his name was Jay, and he

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would like, Set up meetings to like

minister to me because he knew I was

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having a hard time with my faith.

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He had Approached me in the in the

plaza at Colorado State University

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And struck up a conversation which is

like pretty average like evangelical

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experience I think you just smell it

on you or he was approaching multiple

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people He was just trying to talk to

whoever he could Go to college campuses

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and I'm well aware Sometimes they're

part of like a bonafide cult too.

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I got one of those.

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He wasn't, he wasn't real culty.

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He belonged to a kind of a

bigger, kind of mainstream church.

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But he was, he You know, he was one of

the folks who just walk up to people in

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the plaza and say, Do you know what's

gonna happen to you when you die?

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And I had friends who would look at

people like that, and I had a friend

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who would look at, when somebody would

approach him with that question, he

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would just say, Yeah, I'm going to hell.

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Just to like, make him stop, you know?

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And I found that offensive at the time,

because there was a big part of me

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that still had a foot in Christianity

but this guy's name was Jay, this

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evangelist and he would ask me if I

believed in Jesus, and I would say yes.

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The more we talked, the more I realized

that what I was telling him about myself

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felt very, very empty and I really

dwelled on it for a long time, and it

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contributed to a mental health crisis

that I was having that kind of, like,

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led me to kind of wash out of college

and join the Navy and And that was a

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big part of my deconstruction, too, but,

but I, that, that's a distinct moment,

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like, talking to Jay and realizing that

I didn't believe what I was saying.

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So that, that's a, that's one moment.

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Do you guys mind if I jump

in with mine real quick?

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Yeah.

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I, I don't, I guess in the context

of the way you talked about yours,

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Hedge, I don't even, I guess it, it,

backward looking might be considered,

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Deconstruction, but it was almost

forcible insofar as, I don't remember if

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I was like five, six, I was young, like

barely, probably not in kindergarten, but

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older, barely, barely older than that.

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And I remember the church that I went

to had, you know, we always had a couple

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pastors in the time that I was there,

but a lot of missionaries would come

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through and they would always give

those missionaries time to speak either

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about their mission work or about or

just give a guest sermon, basically.

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And I remember, this is all like really,

really fuzzy memories of childhood,

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but I always remember liking the

message, or like feeling kind of at

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home, not necessarily really loving.

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you know, the, the message the pastors

gave, but a lot of the times the

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missionaries who would come through were

just a lot more disturbing in terms of

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my brother's Mexican American adopted

from Mexico and one, one missionary at

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one time said, you know, it's really in

this, we're talking mid to late eighties

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here because I'm older than both of you.

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But like the.

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The communism was in decline and the,

the Berlin Wall was falling, and so

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people started mission, you know, doing

missions in China and Russia, and that

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was like the zeitgeist at the time, and

this one guy came up and said, hey, I know

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that's the hot thing to do right now for

missionaries, but we think we're doing the

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deeper, more important work of and I do

remember this quote, like, specifically,

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we are pastoring the darkest continent.

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South America, where

all the Catholics are.

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And that's, you know, I didn't know much,

but I knew that's where my brother, the

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part of the world my brother was from,

and I just got this overwhelming feeling

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that this guy doesn't know my brother,

but if he were in Veracruz, Mexico, where

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he was born and not sitting next to me on

this church pew, this person would kind of

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hate my brother until he became the kind

of Christian this guy wanted him to be.

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But the real moment where I kind of

had to break from my faith, or maybe

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have a childhood mental breakdown,

was a different person came up, and

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I actually need to talk to a biblical

scholar about this, because I don't even

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know if this exists in scripture, but

somebody said, the only unforgivable

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sin is questioning God's existence.

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And as like a six or seven year old, I

had already, I had already done that.

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I had already been like, what is just.

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One of the things was, you know, I went

to a church where people spoke in tongues.

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And it was, it's this

powerfully emotional thing.

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I never felt moved to speak in

tongues myself, but when people start

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speaking in tongues, it gets wild,

and people get really into it, and it

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becomes, like, there is this emotional

release that I felt as a kid, even

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though I never felt it inside myself.

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I could feel the room

getting super emotional.

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But there was always like one or

two people who were clearly faking

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it, at least to my child's brain.

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It's like, wow, this person

seems like they're making it up.

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And then this is also the person

that I hear when I'm running

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around like literally between

people's legs with my friends.

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They're also the ones kind of

gossiping and like talking,

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you know, about each other.

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Like, that seems like what

they're doing is fake.

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What if that means God is fake?

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And I just had that thought.

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It's like a precocious childhood thought.

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But then when this person, and I don't

even know who it was, came up and

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said that thing It almost broke me.

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I was terrified.

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And without, and I was also terrified

to tell my parents because my parents

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are the most loving and kind people I

think I've ever met and in a lot of ways

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whatever good I am as a person comes

from their morality, if not their faith.

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But their morality is also completely

underpinned by their faith.

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So I was terrified to tell them.

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I even broached the subject that

my sweet, sweet parents might have

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raised a kid who's going to hell

before he even knows what he's doing.

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And so I just asked my

dad, like, is that true?

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And I, what I remember my dad saying

was, is it true that if you question

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God, you can't go to heaven ever?

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And there's no amount of repenting

you can do that will save you.

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And he kind of said.

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I don't actually know, but we don't

have to worry about that, because we've

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never, we don't question our faith.

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And that was like, I think my dad's

extremely well meaning way of putting

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like reassuring me that it was

going to be okay, but that didn't

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actually help, because I didn't also

have, didn't have the courage to be

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like, well I just, I've been doing

that, dad, like what does that mean?

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Like.

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And so I've, again, like you, Hedge,

it took me a decade or more, and again,

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with the biblical literalism thing,

I was in college at Gonzaga when, for

376

the first time, and this is tied to our

TikTok conversation, like pre social

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media, almost pre internet, I took

my first religion class at the Jesuit

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university, a Catholic university, and

the professor used the word interpret.

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And then talked about the different

ways the Old Testament stories have

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been interpreted over the years.

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And it blew my mind, and I also felt

a little scared that I was in the

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presence of people who were daring to

interpret the Bible rather than just

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reading it and taking it at face value.

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I think, and I think, I think we have

to go to a break in a sec, but I think

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that's one of the really important

things about having this conversation

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right now, because there are people in.

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places like that who question, naturally

question, and this has always happened.

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But this conversation is about like

letting people know that if they're

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questioning things, like you're not alone.

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There's a big world out there where people

do question, and it doesn't mean that

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it's going to lead you out of your faith,

but it just, it means that it's okay.

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That's a human thing to do.

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And I, I was like, when you said that.

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Some pastor or whatever said that

it was like a sin to question

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God or like that was the most

unforgivable, unforgivable sin.

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Like the first time I started

questioning my faith and like my first,

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I guess, attempt at deconstruction

when I instead went into like

398

down the apologetics rabbit hole.

399

I was really scared about that too.

400

I was like, Oh my goodness,

am I going to go to hell?

401

Like what's going to happen?

402

Like I just, I have so many questions.

403

And then my pastor's wife was like, Oh no.

404

Like.

405

Like, it's fine to question God, and and

it actually put my, myself at ease, cause,

406

and she pointed to, like The story of Job?

407

No, she pointed to the story

of Of after Jesus rose from

408

the dead and the resurrection.

409

Yeah.

410

And I think Peter

touched his, his ripples.

411

Yeah.

412

Yeah.

413

Cause he, he had to prove it

to himself that he was real.

414

And Jesus was cool with that.

415

So that was the story.

416

And I just like latched onto that.

417

Cause I was like, I have so many

questions and I feel terrible.

418

Yeah.

419

I, we actually don't need to go

to a break, I don't think, and I,

420

because I also did not set up the

break thing before we started, so

421

we're, let's just keep rolling.

422

All right.

423

So, so like, it's 2000, or no, it's not

424

What resources did you have, Hedge?

425

This was, this was like

426

I didn't have any resources aside

from, you know, College roommates who

427

I, you know, drank with every weekend

and would say that God doesn't exist.

428

And it was, like, really dissatisfying

because, like, I needed to know why.

429

Because it was, it had been

such a huge part of my life.

430

And I didn't have, like, I

didn't have social media.

431

I didn't have a community to To, like,

immerse myself in that really tried to

432

explain things in an intentional way.

433

And I think that that's, that's what

struck me so much about how you were

434

describing your deconstruction that was

so influenced by TikTok communities.

435

And part of me grew, like, kind of just

wistful and, like, wish, wish that I,

436

wish that I had something like that.

437

Because I'm, I'm glad for my

experiences and I wouldn't

438

necessarily want to change them.

439

But, it, it was really painful,

and it took a long time.

440

It took almost two decades for me

to, like, realize where I was going.

441

And you were in a lot of, like,

turmoil in that time, like,

442

personal, mental health wise.

443

Yeah, yeah, I was struggling with,

like, with drinking, and, you

444

know, just not doing well in life.

445

But So Yeah.

446

Can, can, can you talk a little bit

about like some of the moments that,

447

that led, like first that like led you

to question your faith and how, and this

448

isn't necessarily this, this conversation

isn't about tick tock, but it's about

449

off ramps and it's about like, you know,

cause, cause you were describing like,

450

you know, being on the hamster wheel and

stuck on it and people like being self

451

referential and how they were advising

you and you're questioning your faith.

452

And, yeah, just talk about

some of those experiences.

453

Yeah, so I grew up in some

really small non denominational

454

churches in Southern California.

455

If you are in the Christian circles

it was a Calvary Chapel taught church

456

but not a Calvary Chapel that gives

some context to some people, I guess.

457

But early on, I, I questioned

my faith around 16 or 17.

458

Kind of, I feel like when a lot of

people question their faith when

459

they're like, okay, I'm about to be an

adult, like, what do I really believe?

460

And so.

461

At that point, I was pointed to, like,

apologetics resources by my pastor

462

and his wife, and his wife was like

a mentor to me and like a sister.

463

I, I At that point I felt like I,

looking back, I feel like I was in

464

a high control religious environment

with how small our church was and

465

how close I was to my pastor's wife.

466

Like I basically nannied for them.

467

That sounds like a term that

we maybe need to unpack.

468

What does high control

church environment mean?

469

Yeah, and there's a lot, I feel like

there's a spectrum of high control

470

this would be on the very low spectrum,

like I wasn't in like a fundamentalist

471

environment where I was not allowed to

wear pants and not allowed to watch TV.

472

You weren't in threat of like

getting excommunicated if you

473

married or, you know, dated the

wrong person or anything like that.

474

But.

475

In this relationship, I guess, I

would say it was like a high control

476

relationship almost where I, I went to

my pastor's wife for every decision I

477

had to make or question I had and so she

had pointed me to apologetics resources

478

and she said, okay, these are the, the,

theologians who have the right theology.

479

These guys over here, they have some weird

theology, so take it with a grain of salt.

480

And then these guys over here, don't

listen to them, they have bad theology.

481

And so, like, kind of told me Where to

go and like gave me a list of websites

482

and resources and things like that,

that I was really thankful for at the

483

time, because at least like some of

my questions were getting answered.

484

And I felt like I was learning

something sorry, just because

485

you forced hedge to do this.

486

What time is this pre tick tock, right?

487

So what, what, what era is this?

488

This is 2011, 2010.

489

I graduated High school in 2012.

490

So 2011, 12.

491

This is Facebook and Instagram,

but maybe pre video Instagram.

492

Yes.

493

Okay, go.

494

Yeah.

495

And so there was you know, a situation

that happened when I was getting

496

married you know, that an argument

that blew up, it was very stupid,

497

between my pastor's wife and me, and

You know, it was, and then it was,

498

looking back on it, I'm like, oh, she

was realizing she was losing control

499

over me because I was getting married.

500

Oh, interesting.

501

And it was a very stupid argument

about flowers for the wedding.

502

But suddenly she was telling my

mom that me and my fiance weren't

503

spiritually mature enough to get married.

504

And she was accusing my fiance

of being manipulative because

505

he didn't want to spend.

506

as much money as she wanted

on flowers for our wedding.

507

And so it was Specifically because

y'all didn't have the budget for it.

508

Yes.

509

We were poor.

510

We were getting married at age 20

and 21 and Okay, so it wasn't that

511

some flowers were Satan's flowers

and some were God's flowers?

512

No.

513

We were poor because we were

getting married young because

514

that's what our faith told us to do.

515

So yeah, so through that process, like,

that was like kind of revealed to me

516

the like control that was put over me.

517

And and you know, a lot of people will

say like, Oh, you just have church

518

hurt, you know, which is a term that

a lot of Christians use when you know,

519

a specific church or a specific pastor

or person in the church hurts your

520

feelings or does something against you.

521

That's a really weird term.

522

I don't actually think

I've ever heard that term.

523

Really?

524

Yeah.

525

Kind of.

526

Gives me shivers.

527

It's, it's a really

degrading term, I feel.

528

It's like when, and this is more because

people didn't know what PTSD was, but

529

when people, like during, we've been

talking a lot about World War I for,

530

for reasons, and like when people who

came back from the wars that were deeply

531

traumatized, they called it shell shock,

like it was temporary, or that it was

532

just like something you would snap out of.

533

It kind of, that's kind of, it, In that

case, kind of unintentionally diminishing

534

the lifelong trauma that it has, and this

seems like a similar way to kind of take

535

something that is really meaningful and

both localize it and it's, oh, you just

536

got a bad church, like, pick another one.

537

And also then sort of, it just, yeah,

the whole, it just kind of diminishes

538

the whole experience of, of, and again,

outside of faith communities, like,

539

community is all we really have as humans.

540

Yeah.

541

And so when you're that, and for me

growing up in the country, it was like,

542

There were granges out in Chatteroi

and Milan and Elk, but I only ever

543

went to them a handful of times.

544

Like, those were in rural spaces.

545

Historically, it was grange halls

where people would meet, or churches,

546

but by the 80s, the granges weren't

in much use anymore, so the majority

547

of, like, socializing I did was either

at my church or a different church.

548

So it's like, in a lot of ways,

those were the, I think, part

549

of what was so interesting.

550

Tough for me growing up having the

feelings that I had was that there was no

551

other alternative except for my grandma's

house in North Spokane where I got MTV

552

and cable and as much RC Cola as I wanted

to drink and that was really like my,

553

I mean, I feel weird using the word

salvation, but it really does feel like

554

that was the thing that allowed me through

over a decade of really feeling like a

555

failed person to just momentarily escape.

556

So.

557

I think that's why it just gives me

so much pause to, like, hear that

558

term that just has weird mouthfeel.

559

It hits the ear strangely to me, and it

just feels like a diminishment of, you

560

know, the most significant emotional thing

in my young life, I think, bar none, so.

561

It's a way to gaslight people into

Questioning whether they've actually

562

left the faith or if they were ever a

real, there's two sides of the coin.

563

Were you a real Christian?

564

Are you a real atheist?

565

Like, if you've become an atheist,

which is a guess for me, but yeah, yeah.

566

So it's also a way of gatekeeping.

567

Like our faith is the right faith.

568

Yeah.

569

Yeah.

570

So.

571

You know, after that we, we had

already been established in another

572

church because we had moved cities.

573

And so we went to a Calvary chapel

that was a little bit bigger.

574

Still a pretty small church.

575

And for those of you who don't know.

576

What a Calvary Chapel Church

is, it is not a denomination.

577

I describe it as more of a franchise

form of church where there's not

578

really a lot of real accountability

that a denomination would provide.

579

But it, but you have that name,

that trusted name and that

580

specific way that they teach,

which is usually a Calvary Chapel.

581

Church will teach through the Bible,

Genesis to Revelation, verse by

582

verse, and that's this, I think

it's called exegetical teaching.

583

Pete Yeah, well, exegesis is just

the study of scripture in general.

584

I think that's a very

specific kind of exegesis.

585

Yeah.

586

So, when we were at this Calvary Chapel.

587

We, me and my husband were very involved.

588

He was running sound.

589

I was doing the, you know,

slides for the worship music.

590

We were, we helped establish the

young adults Bible study group.

591

Like if anyone's doubting that I

wasn't a real Christian, then you're

592

rude, but I was a real Christian.

593

And I'm not saying that

by listing my works.

594

I'm saying that like I was in community.

595

I was deeply embedded in this community.

596

And I was deeply.

597

believing, you know, in this

faith and you made huge life

598

decisions based on that faith.

599

Yes.

600

And so I get, I get really emotional

when people are say like, Oh, you

601

weren't a real Christian then.

602

Because I've now deconstructed

because I'm like, no, I made huge life

603

changing decisions because of my faith.

604

I got married very young.

605

I, I'm lucky that my husband's a

great person and he's been in this

606

walk with me and we're still together

and we still love each other.

607

Mom, don't worry about us.

608

And you know, but that's luck, you know,

a lot of people deconstruct and they

609

get divorces, which isn't a bad thing.

610

But it's just like another

huge life altering thing.

611

So It also does seem not to, I don't

want to cut your story off, but I have

612

actually noticed that, and again, this

is just me in Spokane with the group

613

of people that I hang around, it does

seem like there's a high incidence in my

614

friend group in Spokane of Couples who

married young, who deconstructed together.

615

And some of them landed totally non

believers, some of them landed in

616

a different faith tradition, some

of them landed in a, I can't really

617

handle church anymore, but I am

still looking for a personal faith

618

practice, generally with Christianity.

619

And it is kind of fascinating

how, and again, I don't, because

620

you're right, people do deconstruct

and then get divorced because

621

it's bad, but it also does.

622

I've had this, like, really interesting

feeling about, in a lot of cases,

623

at least the ones that I know about,

You tend to find the right person

624

for you, even in those contexts.

625

Sometimes, some people do.

626

And then, having, if nothing else, and

obviously, and certainly pre social

627

media, maybe, that, maybe your pastor's

wife was right, that you, she was losing

628

control, because the bond that you share

with a life partner, whether that's

629

a, you know, a technically married

spouse, or somebody else, like, that's

630

just one of the deepest bonds we have.

631

And so, If you do find the right

kind of person, that, like, it

632

makes sense to me that a lot of

couples deconstruct together.

633

Mm hmm.

634

Yeah.

635

And so, when we're at this Calvary

Chapel, it's you know, we went

636

there from probably 2015 to 2020.

637

And but then, you know, our pastor His

father was the head pastor and he had

638

a very strict no politics policy for

him and himself and like anybody who

639

was like on the church board or like

the junior pastor, which was his son.

640

You know, he was like, don't talk

about politics from the pulpit.

641

Don't you know, put it on social media.

642

And he was pretty strict about

that is my understanding.

643

He died and his son became the pastor.

644

Well, because it's actually illegal

to do that if you're a non profit,

645

churches are like federally restricted.

646

In order to maintain your tax

status, you're not supposed to, that

647

doesn't happen very much anymore.

648

And some of the pastors around here,

some of the pastors that Hedge covers

649

are emphatically politicizing the pulpit

and nothing's being done about it.

650

So maybe it was a toothless law, but

it is still a law that's on the books.

651

If you're going to be a non

profit, you're not supposed to be

652

endorsing candidates or whatever.

653

And You know, one of the, one of the,

the key moments that I point to that

654

happened is cause at, you know, our

pastor, he, he took the helm as head

655

pastor, he was a big Trump supporter, but

he would, or he was, he wasn't a Trump

656

supporter yet, I think at that time,

but he was a big conservative Republican

657

and he always talked about, and he was

very outspoken about it, which was fine.

658

We were like, okay, that's just you.

659

You go over there, you know, like we would

just kind of like try to brush it off.

660

But at one turning point.

661

And I had started questioning my

662

But in October, November of 2019, he

invited a Republican candidate for

663

Congress in our district to Sunday morning

to speak from the stage and he allowed her

664

to have like a table with her political

signs and stuff like that after church.

665

And me and my husband were

like, what the heck is going on?

666

Like, this is outright, like, this is

illegal, like, we're gonna lose our tax

667

status, like, what the heck, you know?

668

And we were, like, we

felt super icky about it.

669

And, and that was, like, that was

a big turning moment, were you both

670

also studying journalism at this time?

671

No, I was a, I was an active journalist.

672

Right, okay, so this is when

you, so, that's, that's part

673

of the problem there, too.

674

Yeah.

675

I already had some conservative beliefs

or a lot of not conservative beliefs

676

because of, you know, all of the

interactions I was having on the day to

677

day basis in journalism or just being a

journalist and dealing with the laws and

678

rules matter and knowing what they are.

679

Yeah.

680

Yeah.

681

So the laws of man, I should say.

682

Yeah.

683

And so you know, when, when the

pandemic hit it was another moment.

684

You know, the only reason why they

really went to Video sermons was

685

because we had met in a public school

and all of the schools were shut down.

686

Oh, interesting.

687

So but one of the Sunday mornings

when we were watching church it was

688

during the pray time, prayer time.

689

And this is another key moment where the

pastor was praying about the pandemic

690

and he said something along the lines

of and God, we pray for this virus.

691

We know it's not real.

692

And during the prayer.

693

And me and my husband looked at each

other and I said, can I turn this off?

694

And he was like, yeah.

695

And then that's when we were like, okay,

we can't even go to this church anymore.

696

Like my husband started like, you

know, we, we tried to do the like

697

biblical way of What's it called?

698

The biblical way of, like you

know, holding somebody accountable.

699

You know, where you talk to them one on

one, and then you bring a friend, and

700

then you bring them before the church.

701

Like, that's the biblical

process for accountability.

702

Yeah, it's basically just

like, lowest level first.

703

I don't remember the term for it

either, but it's like, you go to, like,

704

you try Solve issues interpersonally,

and then if it doesn't work out,

705

then you kind of ratchet it up.

706

It's very similar to the military.

707

It's funny, that just sounds

like basic mediation to me.

708

It really is.

709

It's weird that you learned

it as a biblical way of doing

710

things, it just sounds, yeah.

711

Yeah.

712

Yeah, I was a real Christian, guys.

713

But yeah, so we, he tried to do that and,

you know, talk to him one on one and get

714

coffee with him, and the pastor was like,

And he said, you know, you're, you're

715

really crossing a line saying, you know,

politics and stuff from the pulpit and

716

pastor said, well, you guys can leave.

717

We're not a cult.

718

And we were like, Okay,

that is not their response.

719

And so there wasn't really a second step

for that because he controlled the board

720

or he picked the people on the board.

721

You know, other people were

openly supporting him too.

722

And so we were like, okay,

let's get out of here.

723

We went to another church and

we found a community there and

724

we actually really liked it.

725

But by that point in

time, I was really like.

726

You know, I don't think

I believe this anymore.

727

Yeah.

728

So they, they basically just excluded you.

729

Yeah.

730

And you felt like, shoved out.

731

Yeah.

732

Yeah.

733

Do you, so with about, about ten minutes

left, how did you engage with TikTok

734

and sort of like, how did that process

of, and what did that sort of What did

735

you find online that you weren't able

to find in, like, in person community?

736

Yeah, so, basically, TikTok was, you

know, they have a really good algorithm

737

that will find exactly what you like.

738

Whether you know it or not.

739

Whether you know it or not.

740

It also, anyways And so, basically,

I heard from lots of different

741

people from lots of different

walks of life without a filter.

742

There were people asking the same

kinds of questions as me or had

743

already asked them and had the answers.

744

And these answers weren't sanitized

for like a Christian blog that

745

I had been pointing to before.

746

There was room for

questioning holes in logic.

747

You know, people in the comments holding

like, you know, pastors accountable.

748

But what about this?

749

What about this?

750

And these were, and the Tiktokters

were encouraging people to ask

751

more questions and read more books.

752

Like they weren't trying to steer

people down a specific path.

753

And so there's.

754

There's, they're called

exvangelicals, a lot of people call

755

themselves or deconstruction talk.

756

And so there's people on those

channels that, who are still Christian.

757

There's people who are agnostic now.

758

There's people that are atheists

or Or there, or there's people who

759

are just theists who, you know,

who are just kind of like, there

760

are multiple gods or whatever.

761

And then there's people that

have turned into witches.

762

So I also met people who are

Christian witches and met, I

763

mean, like, saw them on the video.

764

But nobody was trying to convince

me of anything other than to

765

keep asking questions until I was

satisfied with what I believed.

766

And that is, I think, the key

difference between my journey

767

and your journey, Hedge, is that

I was able to just keep digging.

768

And I had a place to dig

at, and I had resources.

769

And it wasn't just like a, I

saw it on TikTok, so it's true.

770

It was real books that I

was pointed to and I read.

771

So yeah.

772

. Hmm.

773

I love that.

774

'cause it's like, I mean, that,

that, that feels like a lot of

775

people, a lot of people use the term

deconstruction synonymously with

776

like, just like becoming an atheist.

777

Mm-hmm . Or like, just

like leaving Christianity.

778

But like these people are

saying, I like question.

779

Question what?

780

You question what you believe.

781

Mm-hmm . In a way that helps you learn

whether you really believe it or not.

782

Yeah.

783

Right.

784

And that's, that's a

beautiful experience to me.

785

Yeah.

786

And, and so, like I'm It's sort of

the process of being human, right?

787

And if we weren't talking about a

religious context, I think a lot of

788

folks, oh, and even a lot of faith

traditions that encourage you to not

789

question the Bible, encourage you to

question everything else about the

790

world all around you And not just

saying that the world has fallen.

791

There are plenty of people who are

like, look to God because the world

792

has fallen and look no further.

793

That wasn't really the

church I grew up in either.

794

But there was this, and that's one

of the things that I think is so

795

fascinating about, Just the prism

of belief that kind of came from the

796

Reformation 500 years ago and then

maybe got supercharged in America.

797

By no means a biblical scholar, but it

sure seems like the Reformation went

798

on steroids with the Western expansion

and super charismatic Christianity and

799

revivalism and And so it's really hard

to even talk about these things because

800

I also went to a non denominational

church and the whole non denominational

801

part was this idea of, but they, I don't

think that the church I grew up in was

802

super cool with like the Calvary Chapel

form of non denominational Christian.

803

And the idea, like just the, like

non denominational was, I don't

804

want to say dog whistle, but it

was like a subtle way of saying.

805

We reject orthodoxy, right?

806

We don't, we're not Catholic, we

aren't even Methodist, we aren't

807

Presbyterian, we are non denominational.

808

And we have no accountability.

809

Well, and in some, well, that's, but

they still do have control, right?

810

Like, can, it is.

811

Not every church, but the, you know, there

is still this assumption that there is

812

a form of control going on outside of an

orthodoxy and again, like there have been,

813

all forms of power have done positive

things and truly horrific things, so

814

in and outside the context of religion,

but it is really, really fascinating

815

how people have tried to recognize,

you know, again, starting with Martin

816

Luther, the, the, the sort of stranglehold

that At the time, Catholicism, or just

817

Christianity, because there was, you

don't have to call it Catholicism, because

818

it was just the only thing there was.

819

And people wanted to break away

from that and do it differently.

820

And that's, again, its own

form of deconstruction.

821

And then you get down to where we

don't even want to give ourselves a

822

label, because what we really have

is just this perfect and direct

823

communication with the Almighty.

824

But that's also, that's sort of

obscuring what's really going

825

on with these churches as well.

826

It's funny to say that Calvary,

Calvary, as a, like you call that

827

a franchise, I think that's an

interesting way of putting it.

828

We went to open Bible standard churches,

which is a similar sort of thing, where

829

there is, there is a theology behind it

that people have generally agreed to,

830

which is kind of a form of orthodoxy, even

if you don't want to call it orthodoxy

831

that's pretending to not be, I guess.

832

I think I think we've got, we've

got about two minutes left before

833

we got to start the wrap up.

834

But I wanted to ask just like a

couple of just really basic questions.

835

Like, like what was difficult about

this process for you and what was easy?

836

Maybe just like a couple of

little bullet points about those.

837

I'll start with easy.

838

It was most easy to follow my own

curiosity once I allowed myself

839

to like really question and go

outside of the like, Approved

840

literature, or the approved sources.

841

I'm a journalist, so I'm

really curious about the world.

842

But, and it was also most easy to

make connections between what I was

843

learning in different areas and topics.

844

Like you know, connecting witchcraft

with Catholic practices and psychology.

845

And like, learning the psychology

of worship and why we feel so

846

good when we're collective.

847

It's called collective effervescence.

848

And so.

849

All of the stuff I was just learning, I

was, you know, being able to learn all of

850

the history and theology and psychology

behind it was really interesting.

851

That, that term collective effervescence

recalls what Luke was saying

852

earlier about speaking in tongues.

853

Yeah, I didn't want to jump in

with that, but yeah, that's very,

854

that's actually, effervescence is

a really good way of putting that.

855

And then so the difficult part was

definitely the family aspect of it.

856

My mom, I don't, I still

don't think my mom's recovered

857

from since I came out to her.

858

From your deconstruction.

859

Or my deconstruction.

860

So I.

861

She has, she, she's still constructed.

862

In her faith.

863

Constructed.

864

Yeah.

865

I came out to her about a year ago.

866

I was no longer Christian.

867

bisexual to top that off.

868

And I think she thought that I was the

one kid that she didn't have to worry

869

about because I was so deeply involved

in the community and that I had married

870

a good Christian guy and all this stuff.

871

But I really needed to, to set

those boundaries in my life.

872

And I really needed, I felt like I

really needed like live my truth and that

873

sounds so corny, but it's really true.

874

You know, like having everybody

in your life see you for what you

875

are, even if they don't like it is.

876

It's important, I think,

to the human experience.

877

Empowering.

878

Mm hmm.

879

Yeah.

880

What about you, Hedge?

881

What was, I don't think any of it was

easy for me, so I'm the wrong person

882

to ask, but what was hard and easy for

you, hard about it and easy for you?

883

It was really, I had kind of the

opposite, hard and easy I'll just,

884

I'll just go with what was easy,

because I think I've already talked

885

a little bit about what was hard.

886

Right.

887

Yeah.

888

But.

889

Telling my mom was really easy.

890

She, well she like, she noticed that I was

having trouble and she just like asked me

891

she took me on a drive and asked me like

if I was still, felt like I was saved.

892

And I was like, no.

893

I don't believe in that

stuff anymore, mom.

894

And I have a really good

relationship with my mom in terms

895

of our our difference in faith.

896

I really respect her.

897

She's, she's a she's a very

good Christian, in my opinion.

898

She's very loving.

899

Very Christ like, and it's probably

painful to her on a level that, because

900

like, even with that, you know, according

to her faith, I'm going to hell, you

901

know, if I die tomorrow, and it's got to

be difficult, but like, that conversation

902

was really easy and clarifying.

903

Yeah.

904

Yeah.

905

That's kind of perfect.

906

We got to wrap up here.

907

So if you, do you have questions

about local government?

908

Wondering who to complain to about

an issue in your neighborhood?

909

Wondering which agency governs certain

things, even if those, the things

910

being governed are the spiritual realm?

911

Wondering why something is

happening, or how much it costs?

912

Email, email us at freerange at kyrs.

913

org with your questions, and we'll

try to answer them next week.

914

Free Range is a weekly news and public

affairs program presented by Range Media

915

and produced by Range Media and KYRS

Community Radio, . Thanks for listening.

916

See you next week, everybody.

917

Bye.

918

Bye.