In the inaugural episode of the ‘Inside the Auditorium’ podcast, the often-underestimated role of internal auditors takes centre stage.  

I’m joined by Fortune Chigwende, a career auditor who has worked in senior roles, managing audit teams within investment managers. In this episode, Fortune sheds light on a skill set that distinguishes internal auditors in the corporate landscape, challenging preconceptions and underscoring their pivotal role in shaping strategic business decisions. 

This episode explores: 

• Digital Risk Management for Auditors: Fortune explores digitisation and IT risks in internal audit, focusing on cyberspace and AI. Learn how auditors can lead in managing these risks for resilient organisations amid technological advancements. 
• Unlocking Internal Auditors' Strategic Value: Discover the underestimated value of internal auditors and their strategic role. Gain a unique perspective on their indispensable role in shaping businesses. 
• Promoting Audit Team Mobility: Fortune stresses the importance of mobility in internal audits, enhancing audit value through diverse skill sets. Learn why encouraging mobility drives success for audit professionals. 

A must-listen for all internal audit professionals looking to stay ahead in the ever-evolving landscape of risks and opportunities. Enjoy! 

Note: The views expressed by Fortune are her own and do not necessarily reflect those of her employer. 

Hello, Fultune. Thank you very much for being a guest on the podcast today. I'm very excited to talk to you because of, if you could let us know a little bit more about how you got into all that and how you become to be in London and what you're doing now.

Hi, Hazel. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to speak to you today. So just to talk to you a little bit about how I came to be in the internal audit profession. It's interesting because I originally wanted to be a lawyer, and through a career guidance session at my school, I liked the way the external auditors, when they came to our school for a session, came over and how they were dressed and they were...

and wearing powerful suits and holding briefcases. And I thought, okay, I think this is something that I would like to do. And from then on, I think I was around 13 years old. I've really sort of made sure that I did everything that I could to get into that profession. So focus on doing accountancy at university and then obviously trained with one of the big four, became a qualified chartered accountant and

worked in financial services. From the time actually second year training as an accountant, I picked up that I liked financial services and trained there, qualified and joined a bank as a head of audit at the age of about 24. And after working for that bank for about seven years cumulatively, but starting on a set of internal audit and into risk management, I then got a career in...

Ernst & Young in London where I of course joined the external audit profession and ended up in London.

when you say that you was a head of audit, that's a very young age, could you, what was that a standalone role or was you managing people?

So I did have a team. So I joined, there was a previous set of audit who hired me into that role and she moved into a different role herself. And I had a team, I started off with one other auditor and then the team then expanded under my leadership. So that's how the team developed. So I was leading the function but also doing most of the work as well.

Sure. And tell me, because that was in Zimbabwe, right, and the Cayman Islands, what made you decide to come to London?

So I was headhunted by an agency. I think it was based in South Africa. They liked my CV and then asked me for an interview. And at that point, I wasn't really keen. I thought, OK, let me have a conversation. And then they sold me the role to go to London, international exposure. I'd been to Cayman Islands briefly for six months.

But this was a bigger role in London, and I thought, why not? Let me explore that and see where it takes me. And yeah, ended up in London.

And could you expand on that in terms of, you know, being alone? Did you know anybody here or how did you find that whole experience?

Yeah, that was interesting because when I left Zimbabwe to go to the United Kingdom, I had an older sister who was there with her family, but we were based in London, they were based in Nottingham, so we were literally my husband and my two daughters in London. It was so new and so different. And

We were used to having so much family around us. And then we're suddenly just me and my husband and our two daughters. It was a big struggle. We almost wanted to go back to be honest. Several times we thought, oh, let's go back home. This is too difficult. But you know, London grows on you. You know, gradually we started liking it and you know, finding our way around and getting more friends at the firm that I was working, you know, started, you know, having a connections with people.

And when you start having a network at work and at home, it starts to feel a lot like home. And that's how we settled in slowly but surely.

Yeah, of course, lovely. And you sort of, since the big four, you've moved into investment management. Was that by choice or just in terms, did you know what sort of products you wanted or industry that you wanted to go into internal audit?

Yeah, so when I started training with KPMG back in Zimbabwe, I actually focused on financial services and I worked for banks, asset management, discount houses and so on. And that was a skill set that started off very early in my training with that big four firm. And therefore, I knew I wanted to be in financial services.

So moving into asset management was sort of second nature because it's an industry that I already understood because the bank that I worked as head of audit had an asset management wing as well, division. So I already knew the products, I understood the industry and it was easier for me to just slide in and fit in.

thing I've noticed is that once people go into asset management and investment management they tend to stay there they don't really sort of move into investment banking or you know a bit different if you were doing sort of compliance why is that because I've always symbolized investment banking quite like private banking as well to a degree would you agree with that?

Yeah, I would. So asset management for me is, what can I say? It's easier to get your head around the core function of that industry, really. You are managing people's money. That's the basic premise on which asset management is based. People trust you with their money, and you obviously invest it so that they get more out of it, particularly in retirement.

So once you have that flair for that industry, it's something that you enjoy doing. You enjoy that giving back and actually understanding how you help pensioners grow their money for retirement and so on. So I think the reason why most internal auditors, once or anybody for that matter, moves into asset management, they stick with it. It's sort of intuitive and easier to understand. And the environment is a lot.

better, I would say, than investment banking. I think people generally believe investment banking is a lot more tougher in terms of the culture of, you know, the working culture and so forth. Whereas, asset management, I think, is something that you can work around and understand, and it's calmer and easier to get your head around.

Okay, is it, could you elaborate on that? Is it hours or less audits?

Not really. I think it is mostly that it's much less complex, particularly if you work for an asset manager that has products that are easy to understand. I've worked in asset managers that have listed assets, understanding the stock exchange and how that works, how portfolio managers create a portfolio to help savers make more money in retirement and so on.

And now I've moved into alternatives where it's private equity and it's really state, it's credit management products. Those products are easy to understand. You're going to buy a private company and you help it develop into a bigger company and you help its governance and so on. It's something that you can easily understand. It won't be too stressful in terms of understanding the complexity of that industry. So for me,

That industry is a lot more calm in that respect. That, you know, it's not too complex to get your head around what the risks are and what you need to do to get the outcomes that your clients expect.

Yeah.

And talking about risks, especially around pensions and looking after other people's money, what do you think have been the key risks this year in terms of, you know, after COVID and interest rates, et cetera, where do you think the biggest risks have been within the investment management space?

So the biggest risks in my view are that, you know, we need to obviously make sure that we still make sure that the money entrusted to us by our investors, by our clients grows. And in this competitive interest rate environment, that has become a little bit tougher because obviously the cost of money is going up. And therefore, you know, it is how we make sure that we are identifying real value when

our investment teams are identifying the right investments to make, the timing of those investments and how to fund those investments is key to making sure obviously that we keep our clients happy and obviously that the risks that we are taking on are commensurate with their expectations. So for me that's quite key.

Sure.

And a lot of the other audit teams are very much getting into artificial intelligence, continuous monitoring. Is that something that you can monitor that way? How do you actually monitor that?

Yeah, so, you know, digitization and sort of IT related risks have become one of the key risks in any internal audit function. Purely because with technological advancements, there's a lot going on in the cyberspace, in artificial intelligence, you know, you have charged GPT. There are so many intricate risks that internal auditors need to keep abreast of.

And in order for us to help our organizations manage those risks, we actually need to be at the forefront of making sure that organizations are thinking about those risks. And if we're investing in those companies, we actually then get a certain level of understanding of those risks that is more helpful in us managing the risks within our own organization. So we do also invest as a firm in

in companies that obviously have artificial intelligence capabilities, but we are also facing challenges in the industry through cyber security and so on that we need to manage on a continuous basis. So I think you've hit the nail on the head in talking about IT risks and cyber security and AI and so on, which are a challenge to all the organizations, I suppose.

So therefore, do you have to audit the companies that you're going to invest people's money in then? Are you doing a lot on with regards to third party internal audited as well now?

Yeah, so we do look at our portfolio companies, just looking at private equity as an example. We have our own teams, our investment teams, we have a post-acquisition team that looks at what portfolio companies are doing and managing the risks within portfolio companies through sitting on boards and obviously assessing risks on an ongoing basis. And we as an internal audit function also assess those processes that our teams have to manage portfolio company risks.

So yes, directly or indirectly, we do look at risks within our portfolio companies, the companies we invest in on behalf of our clients.

When you say with regards to investment management companies, it always seems that they seem to have smaller audit teams, which may lead me to believe that, you know, you're not as silent as an auditor. You're not a siloed. You're not just auditing one area, whether that's a product, you're actually auditing back to front and could be quite varied during the day. Could you expand on that?

Yeah, so the way we work is because, as we've just been discussing, the risks that we face as asset managers or as internal auditing asset managers is that the risks are becoming more complex and therefore our reliance on subject matter expertise has increased. So the teams within an internal audit function are lean.

on the basis that we use these expertise to supplement our knowledge because it is very hard to keep up and keep abreast of those developments. So you need those relationships with third-party consultants to help you identify those risks and obviously, you know, produce the right outcomes in terms of audit opinions for our boards. So we do rely a lot on consultants as third-party providers.

Okay and when you talk about third party providers are you also now talking about the big fours or do you go you are?

Absolutely, it goes further than the big four because internal audit expertise actually, you know, the big four do have, you know, divisions that provide internal audit services, but you know, if you go a bit deeper into sort of a big 10, big 12, you can actually get services from there as well.

Sure. And as you started your career in the Big Four, how did you, did you feel this was a good learning for people that are trying to get in or want to get into it? Tell me about the training. Is it a good training process with them?

Absolutely, absolutely. So maybe I'm biased because obviously I was trained by the Big Four, but I don't think there's a supplement for that. The level of training and the rig of training that is provided by the Big Four or the Big Ten, to be fair, you know, other firms are coming up. And I believe people are still getting this, you know, that training right up to today. The Big Four still provide very good training ground for

not only internal audit but obviously other consulting services like external audit and so forth. And I don't think we can, you know, begrize them that they have that skill set, they have the training ground, they're good at it. They, you know, they continue to be good at training people and providing other industries with obviously qualified, you know, accountants, auditors and so on, which is helpful for the industry.

So then I suppose, you know, if you had advice for your younger self then in order, what would that be?

I think the advice I'm going to talk about is about internal audit because that's where I've been for the past number of years. Internal audit is a great training ground for understanding businesses and how businesses operate. And I think we underestimate the value that internal auditors bring to the table and the skill sets, the varied skill sets that we have.

Because it's not just that we can investigate and tick a box. Internal auditors now have to do a lot more in terms of digging deep into the root causes and joining the dots between all the audits that they're doing and coming up with more strategic advice to the business. And that's a skill set that I think very few professions have.

And you know, you're a career auditor, you've been with an internal audit all your life and have been very successful with it. What would you think sort of your major achievement has been?

I suppose the development of others, because as you develop in your career, you also want to see those that you work with also have careers in that profession. And bringing up teams to become heads of orders in their future careers is something that I am really proud of. And supporting them in those career aspirations is something that I really think is important.

And do you believe in that sort of with internal mobility or you know, you're quite, you encourage people to move out into other companies.

Yeah, so I think mobility is very good for the profession because if you have different skill sets within the team, the types of audits that you produce are going to be that much more valuable for the business because they have different perspectives, you know, people look at things from a different angle if you have different skill sets. And equally, for internal auditors that want to move into the business, it's something that we encourage.

because then they provide the skill sets to that, you know, whatever line of business they've joined. And equally having people from the business join internal audit is something that is valuable because they then bring different skill sets to the business or to internal audit. And therefore I think that mobility of skills and even, you know, to other organizations is important.

And I know that you, I'm still aware that you travel with your job still. What is it that you particularly like maybe from a culture point of view going to all of these different offices? What would you think the biggest learning curve is for you there?

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head by saying, you know, cultural understanding, because I think it's very hard for people to understand the difference when you immerse yourself within a culture. You actually understand them and the way they operate much more than you would if you were, you know, doing it from over the phone or on a video conference. So I've actually, you know, traveled the world and met different cultures.

And it enriches you as a person as well, when you actually understand how they think, why they think the way they think, and understand just how their cultural approaches to things is. Because then you become, I think, a richer person that way from understanding how they approach things. That's in my view diversity through diversity.

So do you have a favourite place?

Um, I think I still have a soft spot for the UK, maybe because professionally, that's where I've worked the longest. But right now I work more in the Middle East and I'm developing a soft spot for it. So I would say, you know, it depends on where you are at that point in time. I'm enjoying my, my stint here in the Middle East and I enjoy the culture and their way of living.

especially for the next five months anyway, whilst the weather's getting colder here. Ha ha ha.

Absolutely, absolutely. Enjoying the sunshine right here. Ha ha ha.

And you know, you're working in a senior role now, you're head of audit, and you've worked for several different investment management firms. What is it? Do you find that they're different in terms of their methodology? You know, what makes you move from one firm to another?

Yeah, so when I assess my role as head audit, which I've done in several organizations, the role is the same in terms of process, methodology, because everything is guided by the Institute of Internal Auditors and so on. But what you find different is each organization is very different culturally, and within each organization you start learning afresh.

And the thing I like about internal audit anyway is that you keep learning, even when you've done an audit two times, that you learn something new. And as I've gone through the different companies, I've learned that all organizations have different risk appetizers, they have different ways of doing things, and that enriches you because I think you become more open-minded about processes, risks, and so forth.

Because I think as auditors, we assume that all companies are the same. No, they aren't. And even the way companies are governed is different. And as you join those different companies, you have a different experience, which I think makes you a better person.

Okay, and in terms of then going sort of back to the risks of investment management, what do you think sort of the risks are going to be to look out for 2024 or in the next audit plan?

Yeah, so the biggest risks in my view are to do with obviously digitization, artificial intelligence. We spoke about cyber security is one of the key ones, you know, because, you know, information technology risks have become so much higher up in the priorities of risks that, you know, organizations need to look at, because those risks are changing so quickly and

We need to be more agile as auditors to anticipate what will happen. And even with big data, it's about understanding how to use that data so that we obviously eliminate inefficiencies in processes by looking at the outcome. For example, if artificial intelligence is able to interpret that data for you, summarize it in a way that you can then interpret it in a way that's helpful for the organizations, that's where we're going.

We're going to, as auditors, need to be more adaptable and agile and understand the digital world a lot more than we used to. It's no longer just about process and paperwork. It's about the data and what the data is telling you and how you interpret that data and how you join the dots as well.

So do you think the role then of business auditor that can go and audit an asset is going to change, no, the skill sets are gonna change and in which way then?

Yeah, so I think the skill set has changed. It's just already started to change anyway, you know, with the way we started, obviously transitioning more towards being Azure auditors. What we are managing more of is data and systems and focus, the focus has moved more towards understanding systems, applications, and the risks associated with the fast changing digital environment.

So if you're not able to sort of upskill yourself to understand IT-based risks, then you get left behind. So if you're used to just looking at papers and sitting at a desk, which is what we did when I started becoming an auditor, we looked at paperwork most of the time. Now it's about actually understanding what's happening in the digital world and how your organization is using digital assets to execute.

its operations, but obviously all the external facing challenges such as cyber security are also becoming key.

So do you think then sort of companies are going to have to, you know, talk to, you know, the VPs, the senior auditors that have sort of grown up in that environment, are going to have to really sort of encourage people to retrain then?

Absolutely, absolutely. I don't think any organization or any internal audit function in any organization can survive if they don't upscale. That's one of the biggest challenges of the internal audit profession. You need to upscale your teams and make sure that they are kept abreast of market developments, not only in the digital space, but obviously, globalization is bringing new rules. We are auditing mostly over the computer this way.

which never used to be the case. We always used to sit next to somebody and talk to them, but now we're using digital means to do our audit. So the way we're operating has changed, and I don't think we're gonna go back. The work from home model has brought in new risks, but also new opportunities as well. So the way the auditors work has changed and will continue to change.

And with regards to the working from home and everything going more digital, do you think it's losing, you know, people being back in the office and actually being able to speak to their stakeholders? Do you think some of the communication is now starting to get a bit lost?

Yeah, there's always a sort of, you know, positives and negatives to any change, right? At the beginning, obviously, you feel that you've lost the human touch, right? When you're looking at someone, you know, sitting across you in a room, there's a different dynamic to looking at someone on a screen. But if you're able to then supplement some of the things you're losing from that human contact with data, you know, looking at

no longer looking at a sample, but looking at the full population of information and assessing that, you're sort of gaining something in return and therefore, you know, it's a different world we're living in and we have to adapt.

Mm.

So it's all about balance then. Ha ha ha. I, it's funny because yeah, it's, you know, everything's got its pros and cons, right? So yeah. And in terms of the next year then, being based in,

Correct.

Yeah.

with regards to the travel then, are you still travelling a lot internally within the Middle East?

Yes, we do travel a lot, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Bahrain. There's a bit of travel, not too much, but a bit of travel, because there's still a need for us to visit the offices and talk to people and create those relationships, even though digitally, of course, we still do most of the communication over video conferencing.

Sure. And what do you think then that the problem is that the audit industry is currently facing?

For me, I think it's talent. You know, how do you retain talent? How do you continue to upskill the talent you have? How do you continue to keep the talent that you have interested in remaining within that company? Are you creating the right culture for them to thrive and develop and, you know, have careers in? That's the challenge because, you know,

Having internal auditors that are good at their job is quite a rare thing. And once you find that, you need to actually make sure you keep it. Retention is key.

So, and why do you think it's quite rare then?

Because I think internal audit is something that you have to be of a certain constitution, if I can use that word. You can't just be an internal auditor. There are certain people that it won't work for and there are certain people that it will. It's not a profession for everybody. And those that are meant to be in that profession are few, unfortunately.

Hmm. And do you find that most people, if you know, throughout your career, people that you've lost within your teams or due for internal mobility, do you find that they've gone on to other audit roles or do you find that they've actually gone more into the business, into risk compliance or something like that?

Yeah, so there are a few that move internally into risk roles or compliance because those are sort of interlinked. We are all talking about risks but different types of risks, right? So people that are moving from internal audit are going to sort of similar type of roles like operations and compliance and risk and so on, or finance.

Mm-hmm.

There are people that simply love numbers and feel that after a while they have to go back to the numbers, whereas internal audit, we don't really focus too much on the numbers. We focus on the outcomes, the processes and so forth. So those are the sort of areas that people move into from internal audit.

And when you was working as a big four then, did you realize that it wasn't just about numbers or?

Yeah, yeah. So I trained obviously on the external audit side, but now you know the Big Four they provide, you can go straight into internal audit and focus just on purely internal audit. I did sort of everything, you know, as a training process. So I would say that for those that train as external auditors, I think they are aware that internal audit is a possibility and they can move into that now at the Big Four.

Yes.

or even after they finish the external audit training, they can obviously move into internal audit outside the profession, outside the big four.

Of course. And what would you say culturally wise or what sort of makes it quite different working between a Big Four doing external wool debt and working doing internal wool debt?

There's so much pressure with the big four because there are so many deadlines that you have to stick to. I mean, there are deadlines, of course, in internal audit, but they are more internal. Whereas with the external audits profession, the deadlines are usually mandated by regulators and so on. Financial statements have to be issued at a specific point in time. Their deadlines are, you cannot break, really. Whereas with internal audit, you can work around

that.

internally with the business that you're auditing on timelines and so on. Obviously we have some targets that we have to achieve but it's different. So the flow of work is not you know picks and troughs like in the external audit it's more consistent across the year.

Sure.

And do you think sort of that might lead to putting candidates that currently work in the big four, that puts them off of it going into an internal role because that's what they think it's still going to be like?

Yes, I think some people still feel that it's still audit. So I might still go into a firm and still have those deadlines and picks and troughs, which sometimes are difficult to continue on a prolonged basis. You can do it for a while, but at times you want some consistency, particularly when you start having family and you want to spend time with your family. It's better to move into a profession where you think there's going to be a little bit of a balance to the life.

Sure, sure. Okay. All right. That's very interesting. And tell me, is there anything from South Africa you particularly miss on food wise or, you know, on the braai? Ha ha ha.

Interestingly, you can still do all those things anywhere in the world. So thanks to globalization, any food you want, any items are available everywhere. Even here in Bahrain, I can get, you know, South African, Zimbabwean, Kenyan, all sorts of cuisines are here. So nothing to miss.

Uh huh.

Yeah.

Yeah, well it was funny enough we had South African friends when we lived in Singapore, we were all different nationality friends. I mean that's the great thing about living abroad but you know you always target the certain different nationalities to what food you wanted on that particular day and yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah, excellent. All right. And so I suppose, thank you very much for your time. If you don't mind, I've got a quick roundup of five quick fire round questions. So one piece of technology you couldn't live without.

Yeah.

iPhone? Or the phone?

Yeah. And anything particularly about the phone, do you use quite a lot?

The problem is my life now is on the phone. I don't even remember people's phone numbers. I have to go to my phone and even birthday reminders are on my phone. Everything's on the phone.

And tell me what are you reading right now?

There's a book called Think Again. I can't remember the author really, but Think Again is a book that sort of challenges the way we learn and the way we need to actually unlearn some of the things we've done in the past and start from a blank piece of paper, because there are lots of assumptions we make about, you know, or misconceptions we have about how the world works that we need to sort of unlearn and learn again.

And is that more in your daily life or working life, these books towards or just?

It's both actually, because even some of the personal misconceptions you have about the world, it's actually sort of teaching you to not make those assumptions. And think again, in terms of one aspect of that book actually is the way we have learned in the past is about getting teachers to lecture to us, but we could have a different learning process where we could actually get the students.

to learn among themselves, challenge each other, and always know that you can actually be wrong. Even a concept that we believe is correct can actually be wrong if we think again and look at it from different angles.

Okay, brilliant. And tell me a company that you admire quite a lot.

Um, that's a difficult one because I think all the companies that I've worked for, I admire.

I'm not sure. I can pick one actually.

right? And what do you think the best thing is about working in internal audit?

It's the variety of work. I don't think that many professions where you actually, in one minute you are speaking to someone in compliance, the next minute you're speaking to the head of finance, the next minute you're speaking to the investment team, portfolio manager, and the next meeting you're speaking to the chief executive. It's so varied and diverse, and you learn so much all the time.

And if you wasn't in internal audit, then what job would you do?

Um, I'll probably be a lawyer.

Hahaha!

Was it something that I wanted to do as a child? And I'm curious that, what if I had done low, what would I be today?

Well, you can always go back and retrain, right? Well, thank you very much for your time today. It's been a pleasure to speak to you.

Absolutely!

Pleasure to speak to you, Hazel. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thanks.