Learning to Thrive Beyond Pornography use was the greatest challenge of our life and marriage. It had rocked my self confidence, tainted all of the most important experiences of my life and become the most impossible challenge I had.

With this podcast or at https://www.zachspafford.com you'll learn about the struggle, how to overcome pornography use, and where to find additional resources to begin to thrive beyond pornography with your spouse.

At some point I took a step away from all the 12 step meetings and councilors and started to figure out my own brain, to look at my issue as something that I had the answer to and I was going to figure it out. Here I share those lessons and give you the power to start your own journey free. Whether you struggle with unwanted pornography use or are the spouse or partner, whether you feel stuck or just don't know where to start, here I will teach you principles, tools and skills that you can use today to change how you think and, in the end, what you do.

You'll hear interviews with my spouse, with experts on human sexuality and with former and current pornography users on how you can overcome your own struggle with addictive behavior.

The Thrive Beyond Pornography podcast will bring new perspective to your struggle and keep you coming back to improve all aspects of your life. (formerly, The Self Mastery Podcast: Overcome Pornography Forever)

Episode 112 & 221

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Zach Spafford: Hey everybody, and welcome to the Podcast. I'm your host, Zach Spafford. I'm here with Darcy. Hey.

Zach Spafford: Hi.

Zach Spafford: Welcome to the podcast. How you doing?

Zach Spafford: Hey, I'm great.

Zach Spafford: You look good. . .

Zach Spafford: Hey, so I, Darcy and I were, chatting on this Facebook group that we're a part of and . This, the topic of today's podcast came up.

Zach Spafford: Before we get to that podcast, I want to share with you guys this review that we got from Canada. And the reason I know it's from Canada is 'cause, , I have this analytics software that kind of tells me. So if you're in Amer, if you're in the United States, you won't see this. But if you're in Canada, this will probably be my only rating.

Zach Spafford: So if you are listening to this podcast, please feel free to go on Apple Podcasts and rate the podcast. You can put whatever you want. 'cause this person's name is Healthful Orange, and I don't know what that means, but the title was "so helpful" and they said, "so many great tips on helping my kids. Thank you guys."

Zach Spafford: Thank you for that helpful orange and please guys send in all your podcast stuff. We love to see these reviews, helps us feel great about ourselves when we're, you know, lonely and... .

Zach Spafford: So today's podcast is that "sex is not a need." So if you follow our Instagram, that's a post that we made, like Friday or Saturday.

Zach Spafford: Because we were seeing this on , this group, this group that we're a part of, and I was like, dude, this is this poor lady. So there's this lady, and she was like trying to figure out her life and her, and you know, her, her intimacy with her husband. And one of the things that she said is, , I'm trying to meet his needs.

Zach Spafford: And then she said a number of other things. But one of the basic meaning frames that we often use around sex is that we need it. And you know, this is interesting. Do you need sex?

Darcy Spafford: I don't need it, but I certainly like it.

Zach Spafford: Right. Oh, me too. I totally like it. But I think also in the beginning of our marriage, what was the reality?

Zach Spafford: I thought I needed it. I thought that, you know, it was your job to supply it.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah, and I, and I definitely thought it was my job to supply it when we are first married. I even had a friend who was older than me, a lot older said, " don't ever turn your husband down because if you do, he'll go elsewhere."

Zach Spafford: Right. It's, it's like not just an unspoken rule of marriage. It's a spoken rule of marriage sometimes, and sometimes men come to their spouses and ask them to "meet their needs." and sometimes wives meet their husband's needs and then she'll be like, so now that I've met your needs, I have a list of things for you to do.

Zach Spafford: Darcy used to do this for me. She'd be like, all right, we're done having sex and now it's time for you to work for me. .

Darcy Spafford: Yes.

Zach Spafford: So I was looking at this post and this lady was talking about how she wanted to meet her husband's needs. And I think this wonderful woman was really indicating that when she didn't meet her husband's needs, that became a source of friction and not the good kind.

Zach Spafford: And this is something that I think that we regularly understand this. I think lots of people, this is kind of the meaning frame that they bring to their marriages. It's like, I gotta do this otherwise, my spouse is not going to reciprocate and take care of my needs.

Zach Spafford: And the truth is that having needs reduces intimacy. And it increases this sense of entitlement. And I personally, I had to learn from myself that I don't have needs. What I have is wants. I have requests, I have desires, but I don't have "needs." Do you have needs?

Darcy Spafford: When it comes to sex?

Zach Spafford: Yeah.

Darcy Spafford: No.

Zach Spafford: No. Well, so this I think is part of the issue, right?

Zach Spafford: Needs are, if you look at like the Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, there's this bottom level and basically what it is, is it's food, shelter a couple of other things literally just to keep you physically alive. If you don't meet the needs of a baby, of an infant, there's a good chance that they will die or, be mentally. Scarred by this.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah. I have a sister who's adopted from Kazakhstan, and when she was a baby, she was born at nine pounds, eight ounces. And when my mom and dad found her in the orphanage as seven and a half months old, she weighed six pounds, six ounces. So it's very clear that her needs for food were not being met.

Darcy Spafford: And it's kind of interesting because the reason . Her needs were not being met was because she learned how to self-soothe. And so she would suck her fingers so she would never cry and then they wouldn't feed her because she wasn't appearing that she was hungry.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. And by the way, she's lovely. This, this, but those were needs that weren't being met.

Darcy Spafford: and because they weren't met, she special needs, her brain did not get the nutrients and the fat that it needed to develop properly.

Zach Spafford: Whereas when it comes to sex, , that particular meaning structure means that I need the good functioning of someone else for my own good functioning.

Zach Spafford: And within a marriage, there is a certain amount of that, but it's very small. Then there's the differentiation set up, right? So this is where I don't need the good functioning of someone else, so that I function well. , right? That means that when Darcy doesn't necessarily meet my quote unquote needs of giving me sex, I'm still required to function well.

Zach Spafford: I don't have to have her doing things for me so that I can be a grown person, and that that is a huge difference between what I think most of us believe about. What our partner is supposed to do, that fairytale like this person completes me, and we are one human versus we're two humans who choose to be around each other and love each other.

Zach Spafford: And I do consider Darcy when I make my decisions, but I also make my decisions about what I'm gonna do because that's, that's what I want to do for me. . And sometimes I do things in relation to her. Like for instance, this week I'm going up to Alaska for a funeral. Uh, and when I found out about it, I told my, I told Darcy, I said, I'm going up for this funeral.

Zach Spafford: I didn't ask her permission because I knew this would be important to me. I did consider how I could bring her along, but I didn't think, you know, I'm, I, I can't do this 'cause it'll, you know, ruin her week or anything like that. I was differentiated from her in that I thought, I'm gonna do this for me.

Zach Spafford: I'm gonna do what I need to do to meet the, to meet my obligations to being the person that I want to be. And you notice that I didn't say meet my own needs. 'cause that's not really the thing. I'm doing this to become the person I want to be. And that's the difference. And you know, I had to learn when it came to sex that I didn't have needs, I had wants, I had requests, I had desires.

Zach Spafford: And if your wife can't say no because . This is a need, right? So if I go to Darcy and I have to say, Hey Darcy, will you give me sex? And she thinks of this as a need, like we think of a need to feed children, what's her only option? What's your only option? If I come to you and I say, I need you to give me sex, and you think of it as a need, what's your only option

Darcy Spafford: To give in.

Zach Spafford: To do it? Yeah. How's that feel?

Darcy Spafford: That would not feel good to me.

Zach Spafford: Right. And then what if you end up saying no for some reason?

Darcy Spafford: Then I would feel guilty. I would feel like I was responsible for whatever the consequences were of that. Whether it was that you wouldn't and looked at pornography, or if you were just super moody and grumpy and pouting, you know, I would feel responsible for those emotions.

Zach Spafford: I think there are so many wives who they, they're like, I, you know, it's. , and this is absolutely not an accusation. This is just, you know, you're in a place where this is kind of what you believe. So if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, these guys are mad at me 'cause I'm , right? That's not what we're saying here.

Zach Spafford: Just just be aware that what's actually happening is when you feel guilty because you didn't make love to your partner or have sex with them, or whatever you want, whatever you call it, you're not responsible for the choices they make afterward, right? And, and this is a, I think a, a good thing to think about.

Zach Spafford: Access to someone else's body is not a need. It's not. And this frame of reference is probably a significant part of why many are struggling with how to create intimacy in their marriage when we see sex as a sacrifice, right? Because if I come to you and I say, I need you to do this thing for me, and you don't really have a choice.

Zach Spafford: that becomes an automatic sacrifice.

Darcy Spafford: Mm-Hmm.

Zach Spafford: right? Breastfeeding. I know you love breastfeeding, but that's a sacrifice 'cause it's months of your life.

Darcy Spafford: Mm-Hmm.

Zach Spafford: hours of your time up in the middle of the night. Right.

Darcy Spafford: Husband can't help you do it, . So it's not like a shared responsibility.

Zach Spafford: Right. My job was always just to get the baby.

Zach Spafford: That was it. That's, that was all I could do. And that's, that's a need for that child. But when you can't say no to your spouse because they want sex, that's not gonna, that's not gonna make you want to have sex with them.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah. And I have a acquaintance that I know, and we are having this conversation about sex and pornography and all of the, the things that we love to talk about.

Darcy Spafford: And she had mentioned like, "well, I have sex with my husband twice a day because it helps him function well. It helps him have the energy he needs and it helps him to not . Turn to pornography. And so I'm more than happy to do that" and I, I don't know her well enough to really like, dig into it and be like, okay, is, are you really happy with that?

Darcy Spafford: Like, really happy with that? Or are you maybe just happy with the results that he doesn't pout or not work, um, to his highest functioning ability? Or or are you just solving an immediate . Problem. Problem. . Thank you. Zach . That affects the real long-term functioning of true intimacy.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Zach Spafford: Well, so there was a, a significant part of our relationship where you would have what we like to call duty sex with me.

Darcy Spafford: Mm-Hmm. .

Zach Spafford: For me, it left me feeling empty. 'cause I, you know, I wanted an orgasm, but really what I wanted was. To be intimate and to be capable on my own. And one of the things that I think occurs when it's a need to have sex is that you don't feel capable.

Zach Spafford: You don't feel like you can stand on your own two feet. 'cause what if, 'cause if this is a need and your partner leaves, what? What is there? You have to find some other way to cope. You have to find some other way to manage the need. But if it ceases to be a need, what happens? You actually just get to choose who you wanna be.

Darcy Spafford: Well, yeah, and for me, I love to be intimate with Zach. However, if he were to die tomorrow, I would still continue to live my life. Right? I, I would not have sex.

Zach Spafford: You wouldn't replace me immediately.

Darcy Spafford: No

Zach Spafford: personally, I would, I would go through that grieving process, and then I would also figure out, okay, who do I wanna be? Do I wanna be somebody who is not capable of not looking at porn, not capable of not having sex, right? Being trapped by your behaviors. That is a miserable place to be. That's why we call this the Self-Mastery Podcast because it's, it's not simply about switching a behavior, but it's really about getting free from behaviors that drag you down and turn you into somebody you don't want to be.

Zach Spafford: So some of the questions that I think that we can ask, right, are, how can I maintain my sense of desire when I feel like sex is a sacrifice? Because if, if you feel like sex is a sacrifice, do you want to be around that person all the time? Those of you, those women, those of you women who have kids who are young enough, right?

Zach Spafford: Isn't there a point in your day where you're like, don't touch me. No one should touch me, .

Darcy Spafford: Yes!

Zach Spafford: I have given enough to you. Now I need to go create my own space. And when your husband comes at you in a frame of need, like your children do, "I need dinner. I need lunch. I need you to change my diaper. I need, guess what you're gonna feel about him?

Darcy Spafford: Like he's another child that you have to meet their needs.

Zach Spafford: Yeah. How's that feel? Does is that intimacy? It wasn't for us. I could tell you that I. . And you know, for me the, the process was, and this was in the beginning, it was hard. It was really hard. 'cause I, I still felt these emotions, so I felt pouty and I felt frustrated and I felt lonely and I felt like Darcy didn't love me and she didn't want to meet my needs.

Zach Spafford: But I got to a place, this was a number of years ago where I started to, to really work to respect what Darcy wanted, I would say to her. So I would, create an, an opening of, of vulnerability. I would say, Hey, I'd like to make out tonight. That's what we say when we want to have sex. , I'd like to make out tonight.

Zach Spafford: And I would leave it up to her whether she wanted to have sex or not. And sometimes she would come to me and she'd be like, well, I'll take care of you. And my response to that was. No, I don't, I don't want that. What I want is to make love. I wanna be intimate with you. And in the beginning, how did that like mess with your mind?

Darcy Spafford: Well, it was super confusing 'cause I was like, wait, what? You're actually not gonna take me up on this offer to just, you know, essentially be a stand-in or. The, the fact that he wouldn't pout, right? That he would just be like, okay, we can just cuddle and , and not try to make any more advances after that.

Zach Spafford: Not try to make the moves. Try as I like to say, turn in, figure out what radio dial or how to like start the engine, right? And that was way different. But , here's the really awesome part of that. When she would say yes, she was all in.

Darcy Spafford: Mm-Hmm.

Darcy Spafford: Then it's amazing. Yeah, right. When you're both all in, it's amazing.

Zach Spafford: So the next question I would have anybody ask is, is my husband's request about him taking validation? Taking validation. So a lot of times sex is about, validating your partner, helping them feel okay. That's what validation usually looks like, or is his request about his desire for closeness?

Zach Spafford: Does he want to be with me or does he just want me to tell him he's okay through sex? And sometimes you'll wanna do that. I'm not saying that that's an absolute, don't ever do that. But when you begin to differentiate, when you begin to create the separate individuals. What you're really gonna start to look for is, is this about him choosing me?

Zach Spafford: And by the way, this goes both ways. So is her request about her choosing me or is it about them basically demanding validation? That's what a need is. It's a demand for validation, and that's. That's sucky, right? I think we all have that friend who, like, they tell us something and they absolutely expect us to be like, oh,

Darcy Spafford: you're amazing.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah, , look how awesome you are. Look how good you look. You know? Yeah. All of those things,

Zach Spafford: right? Eventually there comes a point where it's just totally, totally disingenuous. It's totally fake all the way through. And no matter what you, what , no matter what the conversation looks like with them, it's always fake.

Zach Spafford: That's, you don't want to do that with your spouse. You never wanna do that with your spouse. Some of you are totally doing that right now, so please don't feel bad about this, but start to reflect on that and start to ask, is what I'm doing about closeness with this person? Or is it about extracting some sort of validation from them?

Darcy Spafford: Well, and along those lines, I can personally feel the difference between a. A loving giving touch versus a taking touch. Right. Yeah. Like there's a huge difference there. And, and just the energy and the feeling that you experience when someone is trying to give to you through touch versus take from you through touch.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, last question that you're gonna wanna ask yourself, you're gonna want your partner to ask themselves is . Am I willing to choose sex? Only when I can track or when I can kind of tell. 'cause we can track. We can track our partner, we can track the emotions in others. We're really good at that.

Zach Spafford: But only when I can track that he's seeking to be with me for the joy of being with me, even though I know that will be uncomfortable. That's gonna be uncomfortable on both parts, by the way. 'cause you heard Darcy. you were uncomfortable. You were like, what is going on here?

Darcy Spafford: Mm-Hmm. .

Zach Spafford: And also the other part of that was that you found out over time that you could no longer control me with sex.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah.

Zach Spafford: Right. And that was, that was our podcast last week.

Darcy Spafford: Was it last week?

Zach Spafford: Maybe it was the week before.

Darcy Spafford: Yeah.

Zach Spafford: But it was. This moment where you had to step up your game to be like, oh, I can't use this as leverage anymore. So I have to figure out a new way to interact with this relationship. So this is a doubly difficult thing because if you are willing to choose sex, choose intimacy.

Zach Spafford: Only when you can track that. It's about coming together for mutual closeness, not for one person to extract from the other. And even if that's uncomfortable, are you willing to do that?

Zach Spafford: I can tell you that I found a point in my life where I was like, I don't want Darcy to just meet my needs, quote unquote needs, because I'm here begging for her to do so.

Zach Spafford: I want her to want me. I know that I quote cheap trick, like way too much . Cheap trick is a band Darcy's given me this look like, who are you talking about?

Darcy Spafford: Never heard of them.

Zach Spafford: But you know the song.

Darcy Spafford: I know, I know.

Zach Spafford: You know the song. Right? Which is, I want you to want me. That is really where intimacy begins is in what is the desire.

Zach Spafford: Look on both parts. I want you to want me, but I'm also not willing. for you to give to me just because I say so. So the first line I think is good. And the second one, I need you to need me. That, that I don't think is a good line. . . All right you guys, we love doing this podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

Zach Spafford: We love you. We hope that you are having a great week. We will see you next week.

Darcy Spafford: Bye

Zach Spafford: bye.