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Embedding sustainability in your organisation’s culture - the missing metric
Episode 26 • 3rd May 2024 • Leadership for Sustainability • Osbert Lancaster @ Realise Earth
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At Realise Earth we’ve always been focused on helping sustainability leaders build support for, and catalyse action on, sustainability across their organisation.  A challenge is how to do this at scale.

That’s why we’ve now partnered with the Most Sustainable Workplace Index which can help you do just that.

I recently sat down with Jaime Blakeley-Glover, creator of the Index, to hear his story. Listen to learn:

  • Why Jaime believed the Index needed to exist
  • The challenges Jaime faced and how he overcame them
  • The importance of seriously shifting the culture in organisations 

Whether or not the Index is relevant to you and your work, in itself this a fascinating story of sustainability leadership. 

You'll find contact details and other links mentioned in this episode in the companion blog post here:

https://realise.earth/embedding-sustainability-in-your-organisations-culture-the-missing-metric/

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Connect with Osbert Lancaster - drop me a message and let me know you listen to the podcast! – and follow Realise Earth.

Mentioned in this episode:

👉 Unlock Employee Action on Sustainability with the Most Sustainable Workplace Index

Join us for a webinar with Jaime Blakeley-Glover, creator of the Most Sustainable Workplace Index, and learn how the Index helps you tap into and unlock most employees’ latent motivation to transform your sustainability initiatives – Wed 22 May.

Read more & register

Transcripts

Osbert:

At Realise Earth we've always been focused on helping sustainability leaders

2

:

build support for and catalyze action on

sustainability across their organizations.

3

:

One of the challenges is

how to do this at scale.

4

:

That's why we've now partnered with

the Most Sustainable Workplace Index,

5

:

which can help you do just that.

6

:

I recently sat down with Jaime

Blakeley-Glover, creator of the index to

7

:

hear his story, listen on to learn: why

Jaime believed index needed to exist, the

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:

challenges he faced and how he overcame

them and the importance of seriously

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:

shifting the culture in organizations.

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:

Whether or not the index is

for you and your organization,

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:

this is a fascinating story of

sustainability leadership in practice.

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This is leadership for sustainability,

the podcast for sustainability

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directors, managers, and pioneers

who want their organization to make

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greater progress on sustainability.

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It's so good to have you with us.

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I'm Osbert Lancaster.

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I'm a long time sustainability

consultant, facilitator and director

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of Realise Earth, specialists in

the people side of sustainability.

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Before we hear Jaime's story.

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I've got a couple of apologies.

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First I've been breaking one of

the basic rules of podcasting.

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I've not been releasing

episodes on a regular schedule.

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Unfortunately, I've had additional

caring responsibilities for some time

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and I'm squeezing the podcast into gaps

between that and work with clients.

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And second, we had a problem

with Jamie's Mike, when we

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were recording the interview.

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We didn't have time to rerecord,

so please bear with us.

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I hope you'll get a lot out of

this fascinating story, even if

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the sound quality isn't great.

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Right.

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I'd now like you to join me and Jamie.

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Jamie, you and I met at an event

last year and we discovered that

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our thinking around sustainability

leadership was very similar.

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I can't actually remember

what that event was.

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Can you remember where we met?

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Jaime: I'm not sure, Osbert but I

think it's probably one of these ones

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that, I think it was an online event.

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It might have been a Business

Declares one or something like

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that, I think I was speaking at.

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But it's one of these lovely moments

when you kind of meet someone

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over the internet and and have a

shared connection around something.

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Osbert: Yeah, so that's right.

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I remember we arranged

to meet up separately.

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We had a conversation, you told me

about the Most Sustainable Workplace

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Index, sounded really exciting,

we got into it a bit further.

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We decided to collaborate.

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Since then, we've been really focused

on the practical arrangements for

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that collaboration, we've never

really talked in any detail about

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how the index actually came about.

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So I'm really looking forward to

hearing the origin story of, the index.

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So before we get into the history

to give our listeners a bit of

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context, can you just give a quick

thumbnail sketch of the index?

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Jaime: so essentially what the

index is, it's a comprehensive

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approach to people, culture,

sustainability within organizations.

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So the key challenges is

it's really there to address.

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So internally It's really, really hard to

engage employees around sustainability.

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We often see this action gap within

organizations in terms of what

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they're saying they want to do and

what that's actually happening on the

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ground and the impact that's creating.

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So I think that's the

first, first challenge.

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The second one is really, I guess,

from an external perspective,

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we need more transparency.

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We need things that are in place that

tell an honest story of what's happening

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in organizations and therefore kind of

limit the opportunity for greenwashing.

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So what we've done to really solve

those is based on this comprehensive

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framework, we basically created a

pathway for organizations to go on.

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Firstly, to measure that, measure

the factors that are affecting

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motivation, engagement, action on

sustainability, enabling organizations

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to get insight around that:

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So how does that compare with sectors?

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How does that compare when they

look at different parts of the

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business and what's driving those.

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To then think about, their

journey as an organization.

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So we have a maturity assessment

that allows them to see what is that

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cultural journey around sustainability?

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And then finally to identify

actions and then measure again.

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So at the moment we are working with

about 30 organizations in various forms.

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We're expecting by the end of June

that we'll probably have had about

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30, 000 people taking the index.

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And then we'll be, I've been working

with some great partners, obviously

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yourself, Osbert within Realise Earth,

Greener Energy Futures, but also

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strategic partners like the UK Green

Building Council , Rewild Earth in terms

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of how do we scale this stuff up?

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So yes, it's a really exciting

time for us at the moment.

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Osbert: Excellent.

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Really helpful to get

that bit of background.

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So where and when did it all start?

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Jaime: Where does it start?

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So probably the really early kind

of version of it, I was working

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for the Sustainable Development

Commission probably back in:

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And at that point I was working

with some climate psychologists,

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which, I remember at the time, just

completely blew my mind actually,

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that there was even such a thing.

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And I guess certainly over the

last six years or so I've really

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focused more around the kind

of people cultural bit of it.

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Because I guess what I've been really

seeing over that time, certainly the last

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10, 15 years, we have a lot of focus on

the technical side of sustainability.

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And it always felt like the people

cultural bit was almost a bit

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of an afterthought in some ways.

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But I guess in that it feels like

there's a huge, I guess, challenge and

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an opportunity because certainly in

the UK, we maybe have 80, 85 percent

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of people who care about climate, like

they're concerned, but certainly in

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terms of our stats, only 30 percent are

actually doing anything in business.

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So we felt like this

is, this is a huge gap.

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And whilst there's clearly funding

challenges, there's technical challenges

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in terms of I guess closing that

action gap on sustainability within

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organizations, that people cultural

bit felt really, really important.

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But I was having lots of conversations

with our sustainability folk " yeah,

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yeah, it's really important", But

it's really hard to get people engaged

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with this stuff across organizations.

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And it always felt like it was

kind of the important thing,

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but not really the urgent thing.

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So What I really did was then say, okay,

well, what can I learn from other things?

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And so I started looking at other

critical business issues that are now

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very much at the top table that probably

wouldn't have been 15 years ago.

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So if we look at things like

employee engagement, wellbeing in

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the workplace, those sorts of things,

which are now absolutely understood

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to be, to be critical, , they made

it onto that top table and got into

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both the urgent and important box.

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Was basically kind of create something

that could add value externally in

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terms of telling an organization

story to the world, but it also added

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value internally in terms of kind of

guiding strategy and guiding action.

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So that was really where it came from.

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I guess that kind of feeling that

we really need to improve what

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we're doing in organizations around

people, cultural sustainability.

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And really that kind of look around

kind of what can I learn from what's

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gone before, I guess, in terms of

how we can try and address that.

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Osbert: Hmm.

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Obviously, there's a

whole amount of work.

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effort, energy, I guess, trials and

changing things around and stuff.

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But what were some of the big challenges

from that very early stage, I suppose,

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of turning the idea of, well, we need

an index, into something which was at

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least a workable prototype or something.

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What, what were those

challenges at that early stage?

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Jaime: One of the things that really

triggered it was thinking, okay, well,

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what we're only measuring in many cases

around this stuff within organisation

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is how many people we've trained.

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So the first bit of the journey

really was saying, Well, actually,

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what do we need to measure?

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So the research around that there were

then absolutely kind of challenges

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in terms of prototyping, piloting it,

changing the questions, thinking about how

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you took, I guess, the multitude of ways

that people relate to sustainability in

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different terminology and simplify that

in terms of, , A set of questions and a

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way of working with organizations that

can be universally understood whether

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you're thinking about it in terms of

net zero or circular economy or any of

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these things are out there at the moment.

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So that was probably

one of the first bits.

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And then I think the single biggest

challenge has really been around the

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communication messaging, because if

you imagine you're a business, if

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you're filling up your stationery

cupboard and you need to buy some

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pencils, you know, you need a pencil.

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It's there.

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It's a requirement.

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You've got to have it

within the organization.

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You've got choices around what color that

pencil is, whether you buy sustainable

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pencil, non sustainable pencil.

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But the challenge we had here

was, you're trying to start from

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a place where no one's even thought

about the need for an index.

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So you're actually having to think about

how you share some of the thinking behind

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it as well as something that people can

actually step into in a way that kind of

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lands in terms of the challenges that are

being experienced within organisations.

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So I think that's been the single biggest

thing is that messaging and just really

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clarifying of where does this sit in the

world because we always knew it had value.

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But it was obviously, where, where do we

point this and where is it going to get

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the most leverage within organizations?

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Osbert: I see that coming up a lot in

our work and in sustainability generally,

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it's that classic thing , coming up with

a really powerful, effective product or

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approach or service, but then actually not

having a market that knows it needs it,

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Jaime: it's fascinating, isn't it?

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And as you say, the conventional.

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Wisdom, I guess, if you look at any of the

textbooks and things like that, it's like,

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yeah, kind of go, go to your customers,

ask them what their challenges are, and

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then create something that works for them.

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But I guess as you say kind of almost as

soon as you do that, you're working within

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the boundaries of what people can see.

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And certainly when I've worked

in big organizations, you're

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seeing what's around you.

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You don't have necessarily that kind

of broader perspective on things.

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So, so yeah, it's definitely been a

bit kind of back to front in terms of

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thinking about, okay, what, what does the

world need creating that and then working

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out how to sell it in inverted commas,

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Osbert: I just want to jump back

into early on you said something

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about deciding what you were

going to measure in the index.

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I guess that , must have been fairly early

on before you could do anything else.

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But how did you come about deciding

what you were going to measure

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and how you were going to do that?

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Jaime: One of the moments where a number

of these things kind of clicked, I guess,

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is probably one of the ways to look at it.

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So over the last few years leading up to

we published it last year, we were doing

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a joint research project with Plymouth

University in the UK and then partners

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in Australia and, and North America.

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So probably three bits, and I remember

really vividly, and we tend to go away

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every summer for a month in the van

with the kids, and I was in France, and

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basically at this moment, I think it

was coming to the end of probably some

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of the first stages of that research,

where we'd done the literature review

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and things like that, and the purpose of

that research was really saying, okay,

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well, we know that there's not a great

evidence base behind just giving people

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information and hoping they'll change.

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So therefore, what is it that

actually will create behavior change?

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And what can we learn from

psychology and coaching in terms

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of people and how we do that?

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So it's really getting to

a stage in that where we've

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started to kind of clarify that.

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And we've worked a lot with self

determination theory, motivation

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theory within that bit of work.

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So I think that's probably the first bit.

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I think secondly, I guess it was just

this overwhelming sense that we're not

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going to get where we need to get to as

humanity within organizations unless we

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really address the people side of it,

unless we can really engage, get people

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acting on this personally in their lives.

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And what I kept seeing within

organizations was central

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sustainability teams were frustrated

because they were trying to engage

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people and not much was changing.

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It was really challenging, but you had

a bunch of people who care about this.

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So I felt there's a real need to

go okay, well, how do you take some

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of the learnings from that research

project around the real importance of

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motivation, because when we're motivated

about something in our workplace, we

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are fully engaged with it and we do

something about it really importantly.

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So it was taking that learning, thinking

then about, okay, well, how do we

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really support sustainability teams

around this to unlock that frustration?

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So how do we give them a practical

tool essentially to help them

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engage with their workforce?

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And then thirdly is, how do

we really raise the profile of

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this stuff with an organization?

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So how do we make it measurable?

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How do we make it something that

can be reported on, how do we build

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it into kind of the mainstream

of how organizations work?

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So it was really those kind of

three points coming together in

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terms of not only, I guess, what we

measure, but how we need to deploy

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it within organizations to help the

people who really need the support.

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And how do we then raise the raise the

bar, , in terms of senior your teams.

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Osbert: You've been using a sort

of a royal "we" quite a lot.

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Who else has been involved?

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Jaime: I was I was very heavily involved

in helping to kind of coordinate the

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Climate Coaching Alliance for a few

years, particularly during COVID.

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And the three founders of that Alison

Whybrow, Eve Turner and and Josie McLean

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have been hugely inspirational and

particularly Allie unfortunately when

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she passed away last year, but we, we,

worked together over a number of years in

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the early stage of the research project,

and she, she's been a huge inspiration.

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Gosia Henderson, who's uh, a partner now,

again, that relationship started within

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the CCA and I remember during COVID, like,

pretty much on a weekly basis, Gosia and

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I would have a call just thinking, okay,

how do we how do we deal with this stuff?

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How do we work through finding a solution

around this kind of people climate

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coaching sustainability coaching piece?

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And that relationship

is still going strong.

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She's the head of programming

delivery in the index today So

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she's been hugely influential.

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I guess I mentioned that the research

program we ran, so John Rhodes from

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Plymouth uni both within the research,

so him and Andy Milne and Alan Taylor

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were the others involved in that.

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But particularly John he's an , Doctor

of Applied Psychology from Plymouth

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Uni, and both working with him on the

research project, but also he's been an

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advisor, from a technical psychology

perspective in terms of the development of

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the index, so his support's been amazing.

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I guess when you're trying to do

this stuff, you just need all of

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these different pieces, don't you?

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Then, you then need friends who

you can call on, who've been

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marketing directors, who you can

say, okay, I'm really struggling.

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Can you really help me just

work out your messaging?

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And then you need your mate who's

going to really challenge you

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and go, "look, Jaimie, look, is

there something really in this?

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Like, how are you going to

be really brave about it?

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How are you going to really try and turn

this into something that…" and, I guess

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challenge the scope of your own thinking.

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I think the biggest thing around all

of that, in reflection, hearing myself

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talk is, I'm sure it's a story for

many startups is, it is a lonely place.

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Like you're, up every morning

at 6am, over six months, you can

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notice that there's been a shift.

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But you don't notice it

on a day to day basis.

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So having a community of people around

you who can support you and you can

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share challenges with and things

like that is, is, so beneficial.

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Couldn't value it more.

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Osbert: Yeah.

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It's a, it's a tough journey.

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Was there a particularly tough

hurdle that you faced and was

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it just a sort of endless slog?

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Jaime: A lot of it is just, it's

just the lived reality of, of

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doing it as a startup, I think.

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Because I guess from a personal

perspective, I've got a young

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family, want to spend time with them.

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I don't want it to turn into something

I'm doing 15, 18 hours a day because

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I'll kind of miss, miss out on that.

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So the biggest challenges, how, how do you

in those early kind of years bootstrapping

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it, keep both, the big picture and

the ambition in focus, but also just.

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really look at like, what's the next step?

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What's the next step?

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What's the next step?

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And you trust that over

time they will add up.

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I got very familiar with like what

time the sun runs, the sun comes up.

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So I think I think some

of the hardest bits.

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Yeah.

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It's like in the, in the winter when

you're still like crawling out of bed

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at like quarter to six, six o'clock

in the morning to, to do half a day on

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it before having to do kind of other

fee earning work and things like that.

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to keep the family going.

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So I think it's, it's just the lived

reality of that is, is, is really

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challenging but it's hugely rewarding.

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Osbert: Yeah, absolutely.

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So with all of that, I mean, did you

ever sort of, were you ever in that

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space where you're thinking this really

isn't going to work or it's like,

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sod it, I need to give up, move on.

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Jaime: I think that the moments, yeah.

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You'd lie if you, if you, if you said no.

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I think that the particular

bits have been over those long

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winters when it's dark outside and

you're kind of having to do that.

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I don't think I ever really doubted like

the technical capability, I guess, of it.

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Because there's a process of prototyping,

learning, refining, which is inevitable

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when you're starting these things.

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But it always felt like,

okay, you can do that.

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As long as you're listening and learning

and experimenting with it, that gets

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you to where you need to get to.

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I think the biggest fear, has been

around the impact of it, to be honest.

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Because I think it's got so much

potential and I see the potential

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in the people we work with.

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My fear is that it doesn't get the scale

that I think it has the potential to.

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And then also what I really hope is

it doesn't become a tick box exercise.

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Because I mean, there's some amazing

movements out there, some great

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stuff coming out of the B Corp

movement and things like that.

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But equally I speak to companies who

have done their B Corp and they've done

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nothing for the next two and a half

years until it's time to re accredit.

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And I think I'd really hate for it

to become something that is just

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that tick box exercise and someone

goes, "yeah we've done that".

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Osbert: Working early in the morning,

what kept you going through all of that?

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What or who, I guess, as well?

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Jaime: I think part is, yeah, being just

clear on where I want to get to on this.

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So I think that's part of it, is, I guess,

I've done a lot of work around, kind of,

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my values, where I want to get to, where

I feel the index should sit in the world,

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what its place is, I guess, in the world

and how it can, it can support that.

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I am a big walker.

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I do a lot of mountain

walking and things like that.

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So I think that's the other thing that

for me is I absolutely invaluable is just

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being really strict myself, creating those

times to head out to the Brecon Beacons.

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Go and sit down in the

Mendip, somewhere like that.

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And really get that perspective.

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And just cut away the noise and

say, okay, right, well, yes, there's

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loads of stuff I could do, but

what do I actually need to do now?

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What is the thing that the

index needs to grow into next?

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And what kind of has to sit on

the back burner for a while?

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So, I think that kind of

process of continually kind

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of: Big picture, what next?

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Big picture, what next?

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has been, has been really important.

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Osbert: The thing about getting

out on the hills and stuff, I

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think for me, it's a similar thing.

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It's going out when you've, all that

stuff's churning through your head and

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you're, you've got deadlines coming up and

you're just like trying to get things done

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:

or you're trying to make a breakthrough.

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It's like, just need to take a break.

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I go out for a walk on the

hills and, don't think about it.

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:

It's when you're not thinking about

it that , those sort of breakthroughs,

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those new ways of looking at things,

it all just falls down, all the stuff

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:

you're wrestling with, it clears somehow,

there's a clarity, and it's like,

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this is the thing I need to work on.

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Is that your experience, or is it an

active thinking process for you?

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Jaime: It's a bit of both to be honest.

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As you say, getting out of the

hills, getting on the mountains it

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:

just lets the noise die down.

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:

And what I'll tend to do is a combination

of both kind of active thinking

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and, and just letting stuff flow.

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:

So I'll tend to plan my walks.

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:

For the first two, three

hours I'm doing nothing.

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I'm literally just going to focus on

what's around me, enjoy it and work

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:

on some different skills, just be out

there and, and just being part of it.

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But then I will try and kind of

have in my mind, maybe two or three

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:

questions that I maybe want to look at.

366

:

Osbert: Interesting.

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Interesting.

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:

It's a different conversation, but, Okay.

369

:

So with where you've got the

index to today, what's been the

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:

most satisfying part of getting

to, to where it is at the moment?

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Jaime: I think it is, is absolutely

without doubt seeing different

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:

conversations unfolding is to work with

a client who is having challenges in

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terms of how they engage their staff,

just not knowing really where to go,

374

:

having challenges saying, well, we've put

a bunch of people through this technical

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:

training and nothing's really happening.

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:

To get to a place where you

feel like you've almost opened

377

:

their eyes to a different way

of looking at their colleagues.

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And what I tend to talk to people

a lot about is, are the conditions

379

:

within an organization ones that will

promote action on this or aren't they?

380

:

And to get people thinking in a bit

of a different way, with a different

381

:

bit of a lens is hugely valuing.

382

:

And, Gosia and I ran a workshop

for a client a couple of weeks

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:

ago, up in London and, It

was just, it was really lovely.

384

:

We had, we had our an hour and a

half workshop, but then it just in

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:

the half hour afterwards, there's

three or four of them who just

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:

stayed around completely unprompted.

387

:

And these are kind of technical

people, , and they just launched

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:

into this conversation around kind of

people and thinking about colleagues

389

:

and what's really going on and what

the interaction is with the leadership

390

:

and all these different things.

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:

And just to see that conversation

sparked from it was, was amazing.

392

:

So that's, I think that's

the single biggest thing.

393

:

Obviously from a personal perspective

to work really hard on something for a

394

:

number of years and then speak to people

like you and others and they go, Oh yeah,

395

:

that's, that really makes sense, Jamie.

396

:

that's nice as well.

397

:

But at least it's the client

bit that really gets me going.

398

:

Osbert: That really resonates as well.

399

:

It's, it's like if doing a workshop,

it just starts coming together.

400

:

As you say, seeing things differently

and seeing a new way forward that, that

401

:

wasn't open them to open to them before.

402

:

Jaime: And I think that's the thing I, I

kind of keep coming back to is I actually,

403

:

as soon as you start to look at some of

the stuff within organizations in terms

404

:

of cultural dynamics, relationships,

what's shifting, it starts to just

405

:

open up a whole different way of

thinking about it and working on it.

406

:

Osbert: Mm-Hmm.

407

:

So what's happening next?

408

:

What, what are the, what are the plans?

409

:

Now you've got to a certain

stage what's the next stage?

410

:

Jaime: I think we're hugely

ambitious in terms of where we

411

:

feel we can get to with this.

412

:

So probably a few different bits.

413

:

So we've now got a team of

four of us working on it now.

414

:

Five, actually, so continuing to

build that team, to build partners

415

:

to continue deepening with existing

partners like yourself Osbert.

416

:

More broadly we're doing a lot of work

in the built environment at the moment

417

:

we're really keen to, keep expanding

into other sectors and really lean

418

:

into the place for this in corporate

sustainability reporting because I

419

:

think it can add a huge amount of

value to that kind of cultural bit of

420

:

corporate sustainability reporting,

which I think is really important.

421

:

And then really just thinking about

how, how we scale up and just kind of

422

:

finance bits of that, investment bits

of that and tech solutions within that.

423

:

But it's really about , finding ways

to get to a broader range of people

424

:

working with associations, working with

membership bodies to, to really kind of

425

:

shift, shift the conversation on this.

426

:

Osbert: Hmm.

427

:

Exciting times.

428

:

So how's this yeah.

429

:

I mean, how's this,

how's this journey been?

430

:

you, changed the way

you, you look at things?

431

:

Jaime: I think so.

432

:

I mean, I think it's quite interesting,

like, as working as a coach for a number

433

:

of years, you, you spend a lot of time

talking to people about their values,

434

:

about kind of following their energy.

435

:

So to kind of have to live that myself

has, has been an interesting experience.

436

:

But, but I think hugely rewarding one.

437

:

I think a big bit is around being

able to sit with uncertainty.

438

:

So I think trusting that you can kind

of sit and work with that uncertainty

439

:

a little bit and that sometimes

actually that, that does create those

440

:

moments where it does suddenly, the

kind of, yeah, the, the fog lifts and

441

:

it becomes a bit clearer afterwards.

442

:

I think it's really challenged

me, a lot, a lot of people who do

443

:

try and, focus their work on, on

really kind of purposeful stuff.

444

:

Like I see these big things around

in terms of humanity, a global scale,

445

:

and you go, I just want to make

a bit of a difference in my way.

446

:

So trying to keep that, like

that ambition of like going

447

:

there, we need to get up here.

448

:

But actually, If I get too stuck there,

I can't think about the next step.

449

:

So I think that's a really kind of a

big bit, of the journey has been around.

450

:

How'd you keep , that kind of tension,

I guess, going between where you want

451

:

to get to the big picture and just

focusing on what the next step is.

452

:

Osbert: So where you want to get to

with the index, you talked about big

453

:

ambitions and wthe hole thing started to

change things, make, make a difference.

454

:

What impact do you hope the

index will, will have in, in

455

:

workplaces and in the wider world?

456

:

Jaime: So I'll give you

the corporate version.

457

:

I'll give you my unfiltered

personal one after that.

458

:

So from the corporate version it's that,

that external piece and internal piece.

459

:

So from an external piece obviously

there's a lot of evidence now of, of

460

:

greenwashing and companies talking

about things they're doing that

461

:

they aren't and things like that.

462

:

So I think from an external

perspective, my real hope for it is

463

:

that we bring more transparency around

cultural sustainability and that

464

:

we really improve reporting on it.

465

:

So we, we have the index that can

provide consistent, comparable

466

:

evidence based data that allows us to

much more effectively reports on our

467

:

cultural sustainability and think about

continuous improvement and how we're

468

:

evidencing that to external stakeholders.

469

:

So I think that's the first big bit

is how, how do we really drive that

470

:

conversation around transparency

reporting on, on cultural sustainability.

471

:

Osbert: So before we move on, what do

you mean by cultural sustainability?

472

:

Jaime: So if we look at the range

of things organisations will report

473

:

on in terms of sustainability.

474

:

So we will report on our carbon

impacts, we'll look at our materiality,

475

:

we'll report on other kind of metrics

around look at business travel, look

476

:

at water, those sorts of things.

477

:

We will often talk about,

milestones that companies have

478

:

set around particular things.

479

:

But when I talk about cultural

sustainability, it for me, it's

480

:

around the cultural conditions

within the organization.

481

:

So for an individual working

in that organization on a day

482

:

to day basis, how does it feel?

483

:

How does the culture feel to them?

484

:

Is it valued?

485

:

Is it celebrated?

486

:

Is it aligned in terms of what the

organisation says and what it does?

487

:

Is it something they feel

they can step forward on?

488

:

And if they do and they're brave

on it and they're proactive about

489

:

it, will it be good for them?

490

:

Is the organisation really thinking

about the skills, the mindsets, the

491

:

abilities to influence that it's kind

of supporting its employees with?

492

:

Is it really thinking about how

we close that gap between personal

493

:

concern and integrating it into

something we do professionally?

494

:

So it's all of those things culturally

that is for me, like the felt sense of

495

:

an employee in an organization on a day

to day basis and the difference between

496

:

whether they find a way and they have the

skills, the support, the people around

497

:

them, the culture, the alignment where

they feel comfortable and confident every

498

:

day to go, yeah, I'm showing up for this.

499

:

And I'm going to really challenge myself.

500

:

And if I do this, I'm going to be

supported and it's going to be valued.

501

:

It's going to be celebrated

and I'm aligned with it.

502

:

The other bit, is that I just want to

keep making sure that from an internal

503

:

perspective, that it maximizes the

opportunity as a really practical tool

504

:

to enable sustainability teams working

closely with OMD, HR teams to really

505

:

focus on what are the key things that

we can do, what the pathways that we can

506

:

take to motivating, engaging, activating

our workforce and understanding the

507

:

differences around the organization.

508

:

I think from a personal perspective I

was involved in a lovely conversation

509

:

a few weeks ago, and the guy I was

speaking to talked about the need,

510

:

it's the time for honest conversations.

511

:

And it resonated with me so, so much,

that form of words, because I think

512

:

where we are historically, we can

always say this is the moment, but

513

:

this, this generation is so important.

514

:

And what we do is so critical

in terms of what we're going

515

:

to leave for our children.

516

:

So we need to create those

honest conversations within

517

:

organizations where they say,

518

:

"Okay, look, how is the way that we are

leading, managing the conditions that

519

:

we're creating in organizations, how are

they really, really either supporting

520

:

what we're saying we're going to try

and do or getting in the way of it?"

521

:

Because until we have that honest

conversation, we're just kidding

522

:

ourselves as organizations.

523

:

All we're doing is creating beautiful,

shiny, well designed strategies, and yes,

524

:

the central teams do amazing, amazing

work, but there's only so much that they

525

:

can do, and there's only so much they

can be asked to do, until we can really

526

:

create those honest conversations: "Is

the way we are running this organisation,

527

:

getting in the way of the very things that

we're trying to get it to work towards

528

:

from a sustainability perspective?"

529

:

I think unless we have that, we're

going to miss our opportunity

530

:

to do some important work.

531

:

Osbert: So having heard you say all

of that, and particularly that last

532

:

thing about another way of creating

spaces, at scale, for serious, honest,

533

:

meaningful conversations I'm now

convinced even more than before that

534

:

it's really resonating and really looking

forward to continuing to work with you

535

:

on the index and helping bring that to

our clients and helping them implement

536

:

the plans if they need that support.

537

:

So if people want to find out more

about the index, you and I are hosting

538

:

an event on the 15th of May and

details of that are in the show notes.

539

:

But if people want to find out more

sooner, or they're listening to this

540

:

after the event, where should they go?

541

:

What should they do?

542

:

Jaime: Yeah, so contact me on

LinkedIn, direct message me look up

543

:

the company on LinkedIn, or contact

us through the website, so www.

544

:

mostsustainableworkplace.

545

:

com.

546

:

So yeah, we'd love to talk to people

about it, so do just give me a call.

547

:

Osbert: Brilliant.

548

:

I'll put all those

details in the show notes.

549

:

And if anyone listening to this, wants

to get in touch contact Jamie, and of

550

:

course, tell him you heard about it on

the Leadership for Sustainability podcast.

551

:

Thank you so much, Jamie.

552

:

Well, we'll be keeping on talking, but

not turning it into a podcast next time.

553

:

There you go.

554

:

I hope you found Jamie's story

interesting and inspiring.

555

:

If you'd like to find out more about the

Most Sustainable Workplace Index, you'll

556

:

find all the links via the show notes.

557

:

Please let Jamie know that you

heard about the index from this

558

:

podcast when you contact him.

559

:

And now I've got a quick question

for you to think about: who

560

:

do you know who's leading on

sustainability in their organization?

561

:

Who else is leading on

sustainability in your organization?

562

:

Would they also enjoy this podcast?

563

:

Would the approaches and ideas that we

share, help them make greater progress?

564

:

If so, please do recommend the Leadership

for Sustainability podcast to them.

565

:

Why not send them an email or a WhatsApp

right now while it's on your mind.

566

:

They'll thank you, and so do we.

567

:

Anyway, keep up the good work and

make sure to look after yourself

568

:

because the world needs effective

sustainability leaders now more than ever.

569

:

Bye for now.

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