Dr. Kate Boatwright, DVM, joins Dr. Andy Roark for a thoughtful (and surprisingly spicy) conversation about three phrases veterinarians say all the time: "If you can't afford the vet, don't get the pet," "You can't care more than the client does," and "That's below the standard of care." Together, they unpack the nuance behind these statements, explore judgment in veterinary medicine, discuss spectrum of care, client financial limitations, veterinary burnout, and what compassionate, contextualized care really looks like. If you've ever wrestled with balancing patient advocacy, client realities, and your own emotional wellbeing, this episode will leave you thinking long after it's over. Gang, let's get into this episode!

Welcome everybody to the Cone of Shame Veterinary podcast.

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I am your host, Dr.

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Andy Rourke.

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Guys, I got a great one for you today.

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If you can't afford the

vet, don't get the pet.

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You can't care more than the client does.

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That's below the standard of care.

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These are the three statements

that we are talking about today.

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I am here with Dr.

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Kate Boatwright.

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She, made a social media post

that says, these are judgy things

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that vets should stop saying.

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I had a strong reaction and

I was like, I think we should

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talk about all of these things.

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And I think that shutting

people down is maybe a bad idea.

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the whole episode, we unpack these things.

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Such a good conversation with Kate.

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we agree on some things and

we don't agree on some things.

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But it's overall, I, I, I leave the

conversation feeling really good.

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I'm glad that we got to talk.

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I think that Kate's

got really good points.

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She's so thoughtful.

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And, guys, I, I think that you're

gonna really enjoy this episode.

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It's a little bit long.

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I just didn't wanna cut it off.

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I, I was like, we've got these

three things that I want to get

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through, and I, we were just

having such a good conversation.

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I just, I had to let it

go a little bit longer.

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I think this is totally gonna be worth

your time and you're gonna enjoy it.

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I don't know.

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Let's, let's check it out and see.

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Kelsey Beth Carpenter: This is your show.

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We're glad you're here.

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We want to help you in

your veterinary career.

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Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr.

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Andy Roark.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Welcome back to the

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podcast, my friend, Dr.

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Kate Boatwright.

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How are you?

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

I'm good.

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It's great to be back.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

It's always nice to have you.

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You are, for people who don't know

you, you're a professional writer.

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You are a mentorship consultant.

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You write a lot about mentorship.

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You are a spectrum of care advocate.

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I read a lot of your stuff on,

access to care, contextualized

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care, spectrum of care.

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you're a practicing veterinarian,

so your stuff is really grounded

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and, and actually practical,

which I always really like a lot.

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That's a big deal for me is like,

what do we actually do with this?

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And Kate, I think you s- I think

you speak really well to that.

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And so I always really enjoy your stuff.

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And you had sort of a social

media post that I came across on

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LinkedIn, because that's where

all the young people hang out.

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Uh, all the young, cool people social

media-wise, they're on LinkedIn with me.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Absolutely.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

and yeah.

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And so, that's when I was scrolling on

the LinkedIn, and saw, I saw this post

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you had, and it was like three super

judgy things that vets should stop saying.

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And I flipped through, and the three

things that you put in this post were,

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"If you can't afford the vet, you

don't get the pet," was the first one.

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"You can't care more than the

client does," and, "That's

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below the standard of care."

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And so, like, those were the three things.

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You were like, "These are super judgy

things that vets should stop saying."

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And I kind of had an emotional reaction

at that moment because I was like, really?

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Like, like all, like there's, there's a

lot of nuance around each of these things.

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And I was like, what does she mean when

she says just we should stop saying them?

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Like, I agree that maybe they, they sound

judgy when you say them out loud, but

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also each of these, I was like, "I've said

that, I've said that, and I've said that."

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and I have meant them.

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And there's context around, like,

where I said it and why I said it.

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So part of it might just be me

going, am I the bad guy here?"

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But, but another part of me goes, "I

think that there's a lot of nuance here."

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And so, you and I have been

friends a long, long time, and

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you are a really deep thinker.

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And I thought, "Let's just,

let's, let's just hash, I'm gonna

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hash through these real quick."

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And so if you're up for it, Kate, what

I'd like to do, I'd like to start at

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the third one because I feel like,

I feel like they're less of a, a, a

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barrel of monkeys, you know, starting

at the end and then coming forward.

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And so, that's below the standard of care.

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As a super judgy thing vets should stop

saying, unpack that for me, please.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah.

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So it's not that we need to stop

saying that's below standard of care

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because there are absolutely things

that happen out there that are below

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

need to stop doing but where,

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you know, for me, what I see a

lot is the interchange of gold

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standard care and standard of care.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

hear a vet say, "Well, that's

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below standard of care," when what

they actually meant was that's

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not the gold standard for this.

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And there's a lot of room in between

standard of care and gold standard

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that we often are operating in.

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And so I think for me, where it becomes

judgmental is, especially if we're talking

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to a young colleague, you know, as soon

as you hear, "Oh, you did something

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below standard of care," everybody

is like, "Oh, what did I do wrong?"

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

And

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

that's, 'cause that's

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like malpractice, right?

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it's, it's below what your peers

would consider a reasonable standard

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of care is essentially malpractice.

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Yeah.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah.

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But when we start saying something's

below standard of care, when

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really it's just not the gold

standard, that's where it becomes

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

I think we, you know, we

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interchange those two terms and

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

So I love the idea of

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interchanging those terms.

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So gold standard and standard

of care are not the same thing,

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

we

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

and I do-- I really like the

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call out of not switching them.

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I have a proposal for you, and I

have a conspiracy theory for you.

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And so I'm gonna give you the proposal,

and you can tell me if you're on

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board or if you're not on board or if

you're kind of straddling the line.

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Okay.

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I think that there's three

terms that we should be using.

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And so there's gold standard of

care, which for me is the highest,

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you know, technical level at which

we could This means MRI machines.

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This means, you know, ventilators.

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This is, you know, the going to

the, to the vet schools to have, the

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specialists from Germany do the thing.

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Like, that is, the gold standard of care.

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It's like, "Yeah, I could send you down

to University of Georgia, you know,

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and, and you can get worked on there."

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Like, that is, gold standard.

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And then standard of care is,

like, what we consider to be...

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If you say, "This is not standard

of care," that means this is

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not an acceptable level of care.

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I think that there's another

phrase, and maybe this isn't right,

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but here's my proposal to you.

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I think there should be a

third phrase, which is standard

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of care for this practice.

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And the reason I'm saying that is, Kate, I

think in order to have access to care and

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to, like, actually make care affordable, I

think one of the things that has to happen

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is I think vet medicine needs to get more

transparent about who we're trying to be.

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And, like, the biggest headaches

that I have had around money

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are often when I'm working in a

really nice, h- just a high-end,

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high-touch, customer service practice.

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We have nice things, and we have a

nice building and, all of the bells

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and whistles and the equipment.

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And as a result, our prices support that

infrastructure that we've built and that

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extended time that we give to people.

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It's not right or wrong.

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And again, I think an important

part of this is me saying,

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this is not necessarily...

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It's not better than anything else.

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It's just what we did at this practice.

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It's what this practice was built for

and what those owners wanted to be

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and what that thing was made to be.

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And what is the standard of care at that

practice was pretty well defined, and

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there was definitely a space beneath that

practice's standard of care and what you

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would say is actual standard of care.

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And so here's the thing too.

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A-as, as medicine gets more sort of

corporatized or even as SOPs get more

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rigid, meaning, you know, you're, you

wanna work here, Kate, you're a vet,

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you're an associate, this is how we

work up a, a urinary tract infection.

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Like, this is what we do here.

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I don't think that's wrong

for them to say, "This is what

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we expect our doctors to do.

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This is how we expect our, our

doctors to handle these cases."

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I don't think that's wrong, and

There's, there's a place where as

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a vet I go, "I understand that this

could have been done a different way."

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That's not really allowed here,

and I don't make the rules,

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and I don't set the prices.

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And so I don't know.

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So I'm gonna stop sort of talking here.

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I think you sort of get the idea

of what I'm saying around...

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I think that, I think that there are

floors of what is acceptable at, you

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know, swanky downtown animal hospital,

and that would be totally acceptable.

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That's just not what we do here, and if I

do it here, the medical director and the

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regional director are gonna look at my

records, and they're gonna have a problem

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and say, "That's not how we do this."

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and so anyway, do you buy-- Are

you in or out on my proposal for

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this practice's standard of care?

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

I'm mostly in.

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here's my counter

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

I like it.

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All right.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

one, I hate the term gold standard care.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Okay.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

have started trying to

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use textbook approach

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Okay.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

pla- I think it a little less judgy,

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but still that top level, top tier

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

I absolutely agree.

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We've got that, we've got that top

tier, and we've got our standard of

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care, and I, like the idea of kind

of trying to define that in between.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

I say the most medically aggressive.

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That's what...

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And I don't like it.

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I don't think that...

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I don't think

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

I don't.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

like I

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never

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

I'll say.

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

gold standard with a

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

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I will say if we want to be...

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approach this from the most

medically aggressive standpoint.

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And again, I don't like aggressive.

214

00:08:59,389 --> 00:09:01,089

it's not right, but I'm still searching.

215

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah, I agree.

216

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I have not yet discovered the perfect

217

00:09:05,589 --> 00:09:06,859

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

218

00:09:06,989 --> 00:09:08,329

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

tier, but I agree.

219

00:09:08,399 --> 00:09:13,159

Definitely top tier, and then you've

got your, your standard and I agree,

220

00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:18,899

we need more definition, or ways to

talk about those options in between.

221

00:09:19,239 --> 00:09:19,839

and I, I...

222

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It's part of why I really...

223

00:09:21,449 --> 00:09:24,569

I love the UK's terminology

of contextualized care

224

00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:24,989

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

225

00:09:25,169 --> 00:09:28,419

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

because it takes that like option

226

00:09:28,419 --> 00:09:31,609

one, option two, op- it takes that

rank order out of it, and it's what

227

00:09:31,609 --> 00:09:33,309

is the best option for this pet?

228

00:09:33,774 --> 00:09:35,551

but that's gonna go down

a whole other rabbit hole.

229

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So coming back to your idea

of like a practice standard, I

230

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think you're absolutely right.

231

00:09:40,861 --> 00:09:43,611

Different practices have

different standards.

232

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am the veterinarian where I wouldn't work

at a practice that says, "If you don't do

233

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it this way, we're not okay with that."

234

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There are some practices where the culture

is where, you know, yes, this is, this

235

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is our starting point, but we give our

doctors the autonomy to be flexible.

236

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Sure.

237

00:10:01,620 --> 00:10:02,200

I think that...

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kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

it all comes down to the

239

00:10:03,220 --> 00:10:04,440

culture of the practice.

240

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dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

I, I think that you're right.

241

00:10:06,330 --> 00:10:08,200

And so here's, here's kind of my...

242

00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,020

here's my, my, my sort of picture of this.

243

00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,600

I think historically it's always been like

the vets, like we meet clients where they

244

00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,465

are no matter what- practice you go to.

245

00:10:16,105 --> 00:10:19,185

And it still, it always bothered me when

I was at this-- Like, so there's this one

246

00:10:19,185 --> 00:10:20,195

practice I'm thinking about specifically.

247

00:10:20,245 --> 00:10:20,765

I loved it there.

248

00:10:20,795 --> 00:10:21,955

It was a great practice.

249

00:10:21,955 --> 00:10:23,565

I was really proud of the

work that we did there.

250

00:10:24,145 --> 00:10:28,175

And it bothered me when pe- people

would come in, and they would be,

251

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they would not have the resources

to really do what their pet needed.

252

00:10:31,255 --> 00:10:33,185

And, like, you know, the,

at some point, for a lot of

253

00:10:33,185 --> 00:10:34,675

conditions, there's a bottom line.

254

00:10:34,675 --> 00:10:35,125

You know what I mean?

255

00:10:35,345 --> 00:10:38,549

With the, if this leg is

fractured, y- you gotta fix it.

256

00:10:38,549 --> 00:10:41,622

There's n- there's not a like, "Oh,

let's kinda, you know, let's, let's skirt

257

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around it," or, "Let's do the cheap..."

258

00:10:42,632 --> 00:10:46,922

At some point, there's a floor to what

you can charge at this practice to do

259

00:10:46,922 --> 00:10:48,332

the procedure that needs to be done.

260

00:10:48,332 --> 00:10:49,332

Like, just there is a floor.

261

00:10:49,702 --> 00:10:53,932

And I knew that if they went down

the road a couple of miles, there was

262

00:10:53,932 --> 00:10:57,942

another practice down there that was

a low-cost, high-volume practice, and

263

00:10:57,942 --> 00:10:59,252

that their money would go a lot farther.

264

00:10:59,712 --> 00:11:03,450

And so when I say, I'm okay with

saying that's below the standard of

265

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care here, that is 100% dependent.

266

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And this is why I'm saying I think this

is the f- I'm hoping this is the future.

267

00:11:09,550 --> 00:11:12,410

I think you have to, if you're going

to do that, I think you also have to

268

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be transparent when people walk in

the door about what your prices are.

269

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Which is why when I look at the

UK, and they're like, "We need more

270

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tri- price transparency," at first,

I was like, "I think that's bad."

271

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And now I'm going, "I'm

not sure that that's bad."

272

00:11:23,780 --> 00:11:27,050

I think that being transparent about

what things cost at your practice

273

00:11:27,050 --> 00:11:31,370

is part of communicating clearly

who you are, and then you don't

274

00:11:31,370 --> 00:11:32,370

have to be apologetic about it.

275

00:11:32,370 --> 00:11:36,800

You can say, "This is what we do, and

if, you know, if you wanted a lower

276

00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,320

cost approach, there are other places

that you can go," and I'm gonna sleep

277

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soundly knowing that you know that.

278

00:11:43,260 --> 00:11:47,960

So, like, if I own Outback Steakhouse,

and you roll in, and you're like, "Oh man,

279

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the food here is so expensive," I'm not

gonna lose sleep at night because I know

280

00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:52,960

that you know that McDonald's is a thing.

281

00:11:53,249 --> 00:11:56,029

but in vet medicine, I don't know

that they can tell the difference

282

00:11:56,029 --> 00:11:57,219

between Outback and McDonald's.

283

00:11:57,219 --> 00:12:01,889

They're all in very similar buildings,

and they all say they have high quality

284

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medicine, and I think that that's sort of

the lack of transparency I'm playing with.

285

00:12:04,969 --> 00:12:06,649

So anyway, I, I could buy this.

286

00:12:06,649 --> 00:12:09,739

So that's kind of my proposal

to you is, is there a standard

287

00:12:09,739 --> 00:12:10,639

of care for this practice?

288

00:12:10,849 --> 00:12:15,269

And I, I, whether we like it or not,

and I could be wrong, I'm wondering

289

00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:17,899

if in the next five years you're

not gonna see that crystallize

290

00:12:17,899 --> 00:12:21,839

more, especially as, especially as

management uses, like, the AI scribes.

291

00:12:21,839 --> 00:12:23,659

They're like, "Tell me about what Dr.

292

00:12:23,659 --> 00:12:24,769

Roark's doing in the exam room.

293

00:12:24,769 --> 00:12:28,089

Tell me about, you know, what

recommendations he makes and things."

294

00:12:28,349 --> 00:12:31,719

I'm not, I'm wondering if we're not

coming towards an era where what the

295

00:12:31,719 --> 00:12:35,059

vets do is gonna get more scrutiny

in the rooms than it has before, and

296

00:12:35,059 --> 00:12:38,205

we're gonna find ourselves in a place

where there is an acceptable standard

297

00:12:38,205 --> 00:12:40,826

below what we are supposed to offer.

298

00:12:40,926 --> 00:12:43,736

And I, I, I, I think, I, I wonder how

we're gonna get our heads around that.

299

00:12:43,951 --> 00:12:44,051

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah.

300

00:12:44,056 --> 00:12:44,386

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

So there's that.

301

00:12:44,386 --> 00:12:45,576

So that's, that's my proposal.

302

00:12:45,781 --> 00:12:46,841

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

yeah, I like the idea of like...

303

00:12:47,131 --> 00:12:49,981

I mean, and I do see it where we're

seeing, especially our independent

304

00:12:49,981 --> 00:12:51,641

practices are niching down

305

00:12:52,056 --> 00:12:52,346

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

306

00:12:52,471 --> 00:12:53,771

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

gonna, you know, we're gonna serve

307

00:12:53,811 --> 00:12:56,290

this this population of clients.

308

00:12:56,321 --> 00:13:02,681

And I think the big thing for that to

work we have to be collaborative in our

309

00:13:02,916 --> 00:13:03,246

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yes.

310

00:13:03,581 --> 00:13:05,301

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

You had to know that

311

00:13:05,301 --> 00:13:06,361

that practice was up the

312

00:13:06,556 --> 00:13:07,356

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yep

313

00:13:07,391 --> 00:13:09,271

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

would be able to provide

314

00:13:09,271 --> 00:13:10,401

what that client needed.

315

00:13:10,441 --> 00:13:10,621

And

316

00:13:10,731 --> 00:13:11,091

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yes.

317

00:13:11,601 --> 00:13:12,191

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

needing that.

318

00:13:12,231 --> 00:13:16,361

And I had the same reaction to the

price transparency, and I think as long

319

00:13:16,361 --> 00:13:22,341

as price transparency is paired with

client education about what it means,

320

00:13:22,571 --> 00:13:22,921

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

321

00:13:23,271 --> 00:13:24,811

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

then I'm on board with

322

00:13:24,921 --> 00:13:26,691

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: I,

and I think that that's, I think that

323

00:13:26,821 --> 00:13:29,941

that is the challenge for vets, and I

think that that's a, a worthy challenge.

324

00:13:30,271 --> 00:13:35,981

I think that, I think it's probably a

good thing for, you know, ABC Animal

325

00:13:35,981 --> 00:13:38,731

Hospital down the road, it ... when

you look and you're like, "Man, those

326

00:13:38,731 --> 00:13:43,341

guys charge 30% more than every other

vet, clinic, general practice in town,"

327

00:13:43,981 --> 00:13:47,861

I think it's a good thing for them to

have to say, "This is why we do that."

328

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And if they can't justify that,

I'm not convinced that that's bad.

329

00:13:51,881 --> 00:13:54,691

I th- I really think that, you know,

the data that gets thrown out all

330

00:13:54,691 --> 00:13:59,021

the time about, prices at vet clinics

are rising and visits are dropping,

331

00:13:59,481 --> 00:14:04,071

that is disproportionately driven by

a certain percentage of the practices

332

00:14:04,271 --> 00:14:06,211

that radically raised their prices,

333

00:14:06,301 --> 00:14:06,411

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Mm-hmm.

334

00:14:06,481 --> 00:14:08,301

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

and they had a significant fall off,

335

00:14:08,301 --> 00:14:11,251

and also they had doctors leave, and

so they lost production capacity.

336

00:14:11,521 --> 00:14:15,121

And everyone's like, "Oh, man, visits

are falling across the industry."

337

00:14:15,121 --> 00:14:16,341

And it's like, well, they're not really.

338

00:14:16,391 --> 00:14:18,821

they're disproportionately

falling in certain practices

339

00:14:18,821 --> 00:14:19,961

that have been really aggressive.

340

00:14:19,991 --> 00:14:23,211

But that doesn't get communicated and,

and I think it would be interesting

341

00:14:23,211 --> 00:14:27,301

if those practices that were

aggressively raising their prices, I, I

342

00:14:27,351 --> 00:14:31,191

Can they, you know, can they justify

what service they, they bring above

343

00:14:31,191 --> 00:14:32,741

the other practices to the pet owners?

344

00:14:32,941 --> 00:14:36,101

I think that that's kind of what the

market, if you wanna say, "I want the

345

00:14:36,101 --> 00:14:39,201

market to be involved in regulating

cost of, of care," I think that's

346

00:14:39,201 --> 00:14:40,331

kind of what the market requires.

347

00:14:40,331 --> 00:14:43,904

It's that lack of transparency, I

think, that is kind of m- muddling,

348

00:14:43,904 --> 00:14:44,884

muddling a lot of things up.

349

00:14:45,074 --> 00:14:48,704

I told you I had a conspiracy theory

for you, and h- here, here it is.

350

00:14:48,704 --> 00:14:50,724

I think this is why I had an

initial negative reaction when I

351

00:14:50,724 --> 00:14:53,254

read this thing about, you know,

that's below the standard of care.

352

00:14:53,483 --> 00:14:55,983

And I'm just curious if

you, if you can buy in.

353

00:14:56,013 --> 00:14:59,193

You can give me a one to five, where five

is I'm totally on this conspiracy theory

354

00:14:59,193 --> 00:15:02,393

with you, Andy, and one is I think you're,

I think you're tinfoil hat-wearing.

355

00:15:02,867 --> 00:15:08,937

there is an attack on standard of care in

vet medicine right now from groups that

356

00:15:08,937 --> 00:15:14,297

would very much ... They, they very much

would like to implement business practices

357

00:15:14,587 --> 00:15:19,447

that are currently not allowed to them

because we have a standard of care.

358

00:15:19,837 --> 00:15:23,877

And so I see groups out there who are

s- who are things like, "You know, boy,

359

00:15:24,057 --> 00:15:27,687

we could save pet owners a lot of money

if, they didn't have to see the vet.

360

00:15:27,717 --> 00:15:31,287

They could just come into our store

and, and straight up get our stuff.

361

00:15:31,777 --> 00:15:34,097

Boy, we could save pets, pet

owners a lot of money if their

362

00:15:34,097 --> 00:15:35,737

pets never had a physical exam.

363

00:15:35,977 --> 00:15:39,567

They could just tell us what they

think is wrong, and we could sell them

364

00:15:39,567 --> 00:15:40,937

the drugs that we think are right.

365

00:15:41,297 --> 00:15:43,747

Boy, we could save pet owners a lot

of money if we had people who are

366

00:15:43,747 --> 00:15:45,987

not veterinarians doing surgery."

367

00:15:46,247 --> 00:15:48,657

Just think of ... And then you go, "But

that's below the standard of care."

368

00:15:49,067 --> 00:15:52,212

And I think that there are a, a,

there's a select group- With a lot

369

00:15:52,212 --> 00:15:57,432

of influence that wants to tear down

standard of care as an idea and be

370

00:15:57,432 --> 00:15:58,822

like, "That's a bunch of garbage.

371

00:15:58,822 --> 00:16:02,312

That's-- Standard of care is not

something that, that, that even

372

00:16:02,312 --> 00:16:03,732

we should even be talking about.

373

00:16:03,732 --> 00:16:05,692

That's, that's just from

misinformed veterinarians."

374

00:16:05,912 --> 00:16:08,402

And so again, that's

conspiracy theory Andy.

375

00:16:09,302 --> 00:16:11,492

Scale of one to five,

are you in, are you out?

376

00:16:11,632 --> 00:16:13,062

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

I'm getting on the ship with you, yeah.

377

00:16:13,122 --> 00:16:13,312

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Okay.

378

00:16:13,312 --> 00:16:13,872

All right.

379

00:16:14,122 --> 00:16:14,592

I like this.

380

00:16:14,592 --> 00:16:15,352

All right, I got it.

381

00:16:15,382 --> 00:16:16,172

All right, I'm gonna move on.

382

00:16:16,212 --> 00:16:18,312

We're gonna run out of time here,

but I, I, I wanna talk about this.

383

00:16:18,722 --> 00:16:23,612

Number two, working backwards , you

can't care more than the client does.

384

00:16:24,162 --> 00:16:26,492

I-- This-- Of the three things

that you put on there, this was

385

00:16:26,492 --> 00:16:29,302

the most-- This is one I was most

surprised to kind of see from you.

386

00:16:29,672 --> 00:16:31,832

Tell me why, why did you pick this one?

387

00:16:31,832 --> 00:16:34,082

What, like, tell, t- give me,

give me your head space here.

388

00:16:34,216 --> 00:16:35,156

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

and like you said, I mean, there's,

389

00:16:35,366 --> 00:16:36,626

there's a ton of nuance here.

390

00:16:36,866 --> 00:16:39,766

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Right.

391

00:16:39,876 --> 00:16:41,846

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

said to me, I, I've, I'm sure

392

00:16:41,846 --> 00:16:43,056

I've said it to other people.

393

00:16:43,586 --> 00:16:46,746

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Yeah, tell me.

394

00:16:46,906 --> 00:16:47,756

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

that it, it kinda ca-

395

00:16:47,976 --> 00:16:49,206

floated through my mind.

396

00:16:49,626 --> 00:16:55,459

and you know, for me, we absolutely

get into situations where we face moral

397

00:16:55,459 --> 00:17:00,449

distress and ethical dilemmas because

we know that this pet needs a certain

398

00:17:00,449 --> 00:17:05,529

level of care and the client isn't

able to provide it or isn't interested

399

00:17:05,529 --> 00:17:09,348

in pursuing it, but at the same time

they don't wanna euthanize, and we get

400

00:17:09,348 --> 00:17:11,579

into these really sticky situations.

401

00:17:12,727 --> 00:17:18,387

I think this phrasing comes around

as a way, you know, to kind of help

402

00:17:18,387 --> 00:17:23,287

us separate ourselves and, and give

us a l- uh, s- give us some comfort

403

00:17:23,637 --> 00:17:24,007

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yes.

404

00:17:24,247 --> 00:17:26,567

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

you know, "Yes, I see that you care.

405

00:17:26,827 --> 00:17:28,087

I know this is hard."

406

00:17:28,957 --> 00:17:30,977

I am 100% on board with that.

407

00:17:31,425 --> 00:17:36,126

Where I think concern and where

I think the judgment comes in is

408

00:17:36,233 --> 00:17:38,705

Assuming that the client doesn't care,

409

00:17:38,975 --> 00:17:39,415

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yes.

410

00:17:39,415 --> 00:17:41,115

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

and I think that's where

411

00:17:41,165 --> 00:17:42,175

I struggle with it.

412

00:17:42,265 --> 00:17:44,895

and, and that was the best

phrasing I could kinda come

413

00:17:44,895 --> 00:17:47,596

up with to capture that Idea

414

00:17:47,921 --> 00:17:48,301

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

415

00:17:48,786 --> 00:17:51,326

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

the client isn't doing what we recommend,

416

00:17:51,326 --> 00:17:52,476

they don't care about their pet,

417

00:17:52,681 --> 00:17:53,384

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

when when I s-

418

00:17:53,389 --> 00:17:54,249

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

what I don't agree with.

419

00:17:54,574 --> 00:17:56,174

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

I-- When I sat with this for a while,

420

00:17:56,204 --> 00:17:59,064

I was like, "What is she-- Like,

why is that a super judgy thing?

421

00:17:59,064 --> 00:17:59,384

What does she mean?"

422

00:17:59,744 --> 00:18:00,544

I do think you're...

423

00:18:00,574 --> 00:18:02,794

Okay, so I think you have a really

strong point here, and I think that,

424

00:18:02,894 --> 00:18:08,054

I think that you're right in that

when I say to the young doctor who's

425

00:18:08,054 --> 00:18:12,554

crying because this person just is

like, "Nah, I'm not, you know, I'm not

426

00:18:12,554 --> 00:18:14,294

treating this skin infection again.

427

00:18:14,324 --> 00:18:15,274

We can put him to sleep."

428

00:18:15,794 --> 00:18:18,504

when, and she, and she's crying,

and I go, "Look, you can't care

429

00:18:18,504 --> 00:18:19,564

more than the pet owner does."

430

00:18:19,654 --> 00:18:21,284

first of all, that's a

terrible hollow thing to say.

431

00:18:21,491 --> 00:18:24,831

I think what I am trying to say, and,

and don't get me wrong, I don't say

432

00:18:24,831 --> 00:18:28,151

this a lot, but I have said it, and I

have said it to younger doctors in a

433

00:18:28,151 --> 00:18:34,976

moment when I didn't know what else to

say, in that I think in order to be, I

434

00:18:34,976 --> 00:18:39,546

think to be successful in vet medicine

and to be, and to, and to, to be safe,

435

00:18:39,546 --> 00:18:44,696

I guess, over the long term, I think

you have to be able to keep a certain

436

00:18:44,696 --> 00:18:50,336

amount of emotional distance in order to

do what we do day after day after day.

437

00:18:50,556 --> 00:18:53,516

And maybe I'm wrong, and like, again,

I, I, I think I should probably

438

00:18:53,516 --> 00:18:55,756

just caveat this all and say I'm

speaking very much for myself.

439

00:18:55,976 --> 00:18:58,946

Maybe there's other people who can,

who can put their heart into this and,

440

00:18:58,946 --> 00:19:05,126

and be fully, you know, empathizing,

empathetic every day in every appointment.

441

00:19:05,266 --> 00:19:06,176

I just can't.

442

00:19:06,206 --> 00:19:11,316

In order for me to be happy and to be

able to keep putting the white coat on day

443

00:19:11,316 --> 00:19:15,616

after day, I have to keep a certain amount

of, of clinical and emotional distance.

444

00:19:15,796 --> 00:19:16,196

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Mm-hmm.

445

00:19:16,236 --> 00:19:18,066

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

doesn't mean I don't care, right?

446

00:19:18,066 --> 00:19:20,716

There's cognitive empathy,

and there's emotional empathy.

447

00:19:20,916 --> 00:19:23,446

And cognitive is I go, "I can

totally understand how they feel."

448

00:19:23,836 --> 00:19:28,116

And like that, I recognize that it's

absolutely heartbreaking, and I don't

449

00:19:28,116 --> 00:19:29,236

know what I would do in their position.

450

00:19:29,546 --> 00:19:33,206

But the emotional empathy is like,

is as if I'm the pet owner's, like

451

00:19:33,236 --> 00:19:36,876

this is part of my family, and I go,

"That's just not sustainable for me."

452

00:19:36,961 --> 00:19:39,825

I think I do see that, and the

nuance for me is I do think

453

00:19:39,825 --> 00:19:42,295

the difference in cognitive and

emotional empathy is important.

454

00:19:42,335 --> 00:19:45,675

I think vets should be, should work

on cognitive empathy, which is really

455

00:19:45,705 --> 00:19:50,335

understanding in a non-judgmental way what

people are going through, what they're

456

00:19:50,335 --> 00:19:53,705

experiencing, what they're w-worried

about, what they're really asking, what

457

00:19:53,705 --> 00:19:57,947

the question behind the question is, and

being as supportive as they can be while

458

00:19:57,947 --> 00:20:02,757

also not letting-- You can't put your

heart into the euthanasia room four times

459

00:20:02,757 --> 00:20:05,697

to five times a day and, and be okay.

460

00:20:05,697 --> 00:20:06,647

At least, at least I can't.

461

00:20:07,137 --> 00:20:08,557

And so anyway, I, that's,

that's how I feel.

462

00:20:08,747 --> 00:20:11,127

I think your point about the judgment,

I think is a really good one.

463

00:20:11,469 --> 00:20:12,819

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

before you brought up the cognitive

464

00:20:12,819 --> 00:20:15,639

versus emotional empathy, that was

exactly what was going in my head is

465

00:20:15,639 --> 00:20:20,529

like, I think I first read that in, Oren

Jay Sofer's book, "Say What You Mean."

466

00:20:20,701 --> 00:20:24,091

and if you haven't read it, it's

a fantastic communication book.

467

00:20:24,121 --> 00:20:25,021

I highly recommend.

468

00:20:25,091 --> 00:20:31,461

But it, But yeah, that difference of

levels of empathy, and I 100% agree.

469

00:20:31,491 --> 00:20:35,161

Like, we h- we have to have

empathy in vet med, but I think

470

00:20:35,311 --> 00:20:36,741

we have to dig into that deeper.

471

00:20:36,741 --> 00:20:41,001

It's not just I'm gonna emotionalize

and internalize every case.

472

00:20:41,371 --> 00:20:44,561

And it's-- That's something

that came very difficult to me.

473

00:20:44,943 --> 00:20:45,273

and some

474

00:20:45,378 --> 00:20:45,788

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

it's hard.

475

00:20:45,873 --> 00:20:46,653

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

closer to home.

476

00:20:46,866 --> 00:20:49,533

and there, you know, there are

absolutely some where, like, I am,

477

00:20:49,743 --> 00:20:51,563

you know, I am an emotional wreck

478

00:20:52,158 --> 00:20:52,548

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Oh, yeah.

479

00:20:52,683 --> 00:20:52,953

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

them.

480

00:20:53,843 --> 00:20:58,553

I also have strategies that I've

developed over time to support my--

481

00:20:58,593 --> 00:21:03,033

You know, say, to say, "Okay, I know

tonight I need to give myself a break."

482

00:21:03,183 --> 00:21:06,063

Like, you know, I can't go

home and watch a medical drama.

483

00:21:06,063 --> 00:21:06,353

That's

484

00:21:06,388 --> 00:21:06,678

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yes.

485

00:21:06,923 --> 00:21:07,433

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

to home.

486

00:21:07,478 --> 00:21:07,718

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Right.

487

00:21:07,718 --> 00:21:08,198

Yes.

488

00:21:08,353 --> 00:21:10,333

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

no, no binging "The Pit" tonight.

489

00:21:10,373 --> 00:21:10,843

I need

490

00:21:10,878 --> 00:21:12,238

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

491

00:21:12,773 --> 00:21:13,593

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

you know, different.

492

00:21:14,233 --> 00:21:14,453

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Oh, yeah.

493

00:21:14,483 --> 00:21:17,503

I think everybody's got buttons,

and as you go on in your life, you

494

00:21:17,503 --> 00:21:19,043

will develop new buttons, you know?

495

00:21:19,043 --> 00:21:19,383

And it's funny.

496

00:21:19,603 --> 00:21:22,939

I, I'll give you a weird sort of

analogy of this is when I was young,

497

00:21:22,969 --> 00:21:27,499

when I was a young man, I watched

movies all the time about where

498

00:21:27,499 --> 00:21:32,879

children were taken, and the hero had

to chase after them and retrieve them.

499

00:21:32,879 --> 00:21:33,589

And I was like, "Yeah."

500

00:21:33,839 --> 00:21:37,739

And then when I became a parent of young

children, like, kidnap movies, like, they

501

00:21:37,739 --> 00:21:41,819

really stressed me out in a deeper way

that, you know, I never felt that before.

502

00:21:42,459 --> 00:21:43,239

But, you know, you

503

00:21:43,289 --> 00:21:43,689

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

thousand

504

00:21:43,769 --> 00:21:44,149

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

these periods.

505

00:21:44,249 --> 00:21:44,619

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yes.

506

00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:45,219

Yeah.

507

00:21:45,279 --> 00:21:46,009

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

then you, you...

508

00:21:46,039 --> 00:21:47,349

I think I, I think you develop that.

509

00:21:47,349 --> 00:21:49,399

At least for me, I think you

develop that with breeds.

510

00:21:49,749 --> 00:21:50,299

You know what I mean?

511

00:21:50,299 --> 00:21:51,519

You say, you know, I had this...

512

00:21:51,559 --> 00:21:55,079

I had a, I had an old Vizsla that I put to

sleep who was my, you know, my, my heart

513

00:21:55,079 --> 00:22:00,609

dog, and I think when I put old Vizslas

to sleep, I, I can't help but, like, my...

514

00:22:00,609 --> 00:22:03,519

There's a, a more emotional empathy

there than I want there to be.

515

00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:05,779

Like, I, that brings back

a real part of me that I...

516

00:22:06,159 --> 00:22:08,039

And again, I don't, I'm not

trying to put it into a box,

517

00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:10,229

but also I have to be aware.

518

00:22:10,259 --> 00:22:13,679

Like, that, that's, that's a bigger

toll on me than, than sort of some,

519

00:22:13,709 --> 00:22:15,629

some other, It's either euthanasia

appointments, stuff like that.

520

00:22:15,678 --> 00:22:16,248

moving on.

521

00:22:16,278 --> 00:22:20,804

I, I, I wanna take this idea of, I

think the judgment in the last thing

522

00:22:20,804 --> 00:22:22,614

that we talked about, you can't

care more than the client does.

523

00:22:22,614 --> 00:22:26,974

We're, we're making a judgment about

how much this person cares, right?

524

00:22:29,834 --> 00:22:32,624

I think that there's a lot

of judgment ideology tied up

525

00:22:32,624 --> 00:22:33,714

in this, in this last one.

526

00:22:34,054 --> 00:22:36,654

If you can't afford the

vet, don't get the pet.

527

00:22:37,144 --> 00:22:37,404

Okay?

528

00:22:37,874 --> 00:22:42,434

I-- This, this one lights me off right

now, and like, I'm trying not to let it...

529

00:22:42,684 --> 00:22:45,604

Like, I, but I have an emotional

reaction to this and, and

530

00:22:45,604 --> 00:22:46,414

I'll tell you why in a minute.

531

00:22:46,414 --> 00:22:48,304

But, but lay this down for me, Kate.

532

00:22:48,674 --> 00:22:50,524

if you can't afford the

vet, don't get the pet.

533

00:22:50,674 --> 00:22:54,074

There's some version of that I think

everyone has heard and heard said or

534

00:22:54,074 --> 00:22:58,249

more likely recently heard reported that

veterinarians said, things like that.

535

00:22:58,249 --> 00:22:59,739

But so s- lay that out for me.

536

00:22:59,739 --> 00:23:02,309

Kind of what's your thinking

about that as far as a, a judgy,

537

00:23:02,309 --> 00:23:03,609

a judgy thing vets shouldn't say?

538

00:23:04,089 --> 00:23:04,349

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah.

539

00:23:04,349 --> 00:23:07,909

So, and, and I think this is

another one that the context that

540

00:23:07,909 --> 00:23:11,529

you're saying it in changes the

541

00:23:11,679 --> 00:23:12,039

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

542

00:23:12,469 --> 00:23:14,599

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Because yes, there are clients that

543

00:23:14,599 --> 00:23:19,159

we have that, you know, have multiple

pets and we know they, you know, they

544

00:23:19,159 --> 00:23:22,509

struggle to afford the preventative

care, and then they get another pet,

545

00:23:22,879 --> 00:23:23,159

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

546

00:23:23,289 --> 00:23:24,409

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

like: "Why?"

547

00:23:24,439 --> 00:23:24,669

You know,

548

00:23:24,669 --> 00:23:25,149

"Why did we

549

00:23:25,229 --> 00:23:26,819

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Or they, go and buy another pet, right?

550

00:23:26,819 --> 00:23:30,469

I mean, like, I, I'm not trying to

be a, a jerk here, but, like, we...

551

00:23:30,469 --> 00:23:33,459

If you've been in vet medicine very

long, you have seen the person who

552

00:23:33,669 --> 00:23:36,519

really struggles to pay to, for

preventative care for their pets,

553

00:23:36,999 --> 00:23:42,409

and then they come in with a Frenchie

they spent, you know, $3,000 on.

554

00:23:42,599 --> 00:23:45,149

And again, so now I'm getting

judgy here, but, like, I'm not...

555

00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:49,709

This is-- Everything I just said has been

reported to me as, you know, as true.

556

00:23:49,709 --> 00:23:52,539

I'm not, I'm not guessing at

what they paid, but th- they have

557

00:23:52,539 --> 00:23:54,629

come in and said, "Yeah, I spent

three grand on this Frenchie."

558

00:23:54,629 --> 00:24:01,029

And I'm thinking you have You know,

you have raged at me personally

559

00:24:01,789 --> 00:24:07,409

for what minimal care costs in, you

know, in the past, and it was nowhere

560

00:24:07,409 --> 00:24:11,919

close to that, to that figure, and

I felt like I bent over backwards to

561

00:24:11,919 --> 00:24:13,559

help you get the pa- care you need.

562

00:24:14,169 --> 00:24:18,069

And then you have, you've added a,

a- another pet that's gonna need care

563

00:24:18,069 --> 00:24:19,219

on top of that, and at some point...

564

00:24:19,479 --> 00:24:22,009

Anyway, so I have a, a bit of

emotional reaction to that.

565

00:24:22,009 --> 00:24:26,109

And again, still assuming the best

intent and seeing people as good

566

00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,229

and wanting people to have love in

their hearts and in their families,

567

00:24:29,379 --> 00:24:29,909

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Mm-hmm.

568

00:24:30,029 --> 00:24:32,629

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: those

things can be really hard to balance if

569

00:24:32,629 --> 00:24:34,239

you're a human being looking at them.

570

00:24:34,849 --> 00:24:36,019

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah, and so that's where, you

571

00:24:36,019 --> 00:24:39,679

know, like, I, like, I, I totally

understand where the phrase comes from.

572

00:24:39,679 --> 00:24:40,019

I've

573

00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:40,449

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

574

00:24:41,099 --> 00:24:42,899

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

had, you know, situations

575

00:24:42,899 --> 00:24:43,609

where I'm like: "Why?"

576

00:24:43,639 --> 00:24:45,429

You know, "Why are we

getting this new pet?"

577

00:24:45,899 --> 00:24:50,263

but I think, you know, I think

the situation where I struggle

578

00:24:50,263 --> 00:24:54,633

with it when I've heard it is in

situations where maybe this is an

579

00:24:54,673 --> 00:24:57,423

older pet, you know, new client.

580

00:24:57,743 --> 00:24:58,993

We don't know the history.

581

00:24:58,993 --> 00:25:03,893

Maybe when they got that puppy, they

had a six-figure income and did all the

582

00:25:03,893 --> 00:25:06,223

things, and now they've lost their job.

583

00:25:06,343 --> 00:25:09,403

You know, they're doing, you know,

they're doing what they can to scrape

584

00:25:09,403 --> 00:25:12,163

by, and it's like, well, that doesn't

mean they don't deserve to, you know,

585

00:25:12,163 --> 00:25:13,793

to keep this pet in their family.

586

00:25:14,333 --> 00:25:14,933

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Absolutely.

587

00:25:14,943 --> 00:25:17,023

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

so that's where I struggle with that, is

588

00:25:17,023 --> 00:25:19,263

where we just pass that blanket judgment,

589

00:25:19,703 --> 00:25:20,133

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

590

00:25:20,753 --> 00:25:22,583

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

and say like: "Well, you know, if you

591

00:25:22,583 --> 00:25:26,363

can't afford, you know, if you can't

afford care, you shouldn't get a pet."

592

00:25:26,903 --> 00:25:31,743

And I also struggle because we

know that there are so many health

593

00:25:31,793 --> 00:25:34,931

benefits to pet ownership for our

594

00:25:35,051 --> 00:25:35,471

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yes.

595

00:25:35,681 --> 00:25:39,671

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

And so from a, from out from

596

00:25:39,671 --> 00:25:43,510

that One Health perspective,

there are things that...

597

00:25:44,110 --> 00:25:47,890

You know, I think there are a lot of

opportunities for support, and there

598

00:25:47,890 --> 00:25:51,380

are a lot of options for basic care

599

00:25:51,650 --> 00:25:52,030

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

600

00:25:52,105 --> 00:25:53,095

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

can be met.

601

00:25:53,415 --> 00:25:57,085

and so I think just making a blanket,

well, if you can't afford the pet...

602

00:25:57,395 --> 00:26:00,948

Well, if you go into it and you have,

you know, you know that, you know,

603

00:26:00,948 --> 00:26:05,908

you can do the basic care, you have

the support system to be able to

604

00:26:05,908 --> 00:26:10,078

get that level, you know, that basic

care, yeah, you m- you may not be

605

00:26:10,078 --> 00:26:12,308

able to afford the $1,000 emergency.

606

00:26:12,743 --> 00:26:13,113

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yes.

607

00:26:13,728 --> 00:26:15,538

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

go into-- going into it with a plan,

608

00:26:15,538 --> 00:26:17,888

and as long as people are educated

609

00:26:18,293 --> 00:26:18,643

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

610

00:26:18,668 --> 00:26:21,548

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

it, that's where I, I don't want us

611

00:26:21,548 --> 00:26:24,578

to just put a barrier up of like,

"Oh, if you don't have X amount

612

00:26:24,578 --> 00:26:25,598

of money, you can't own a pet."

613

00:26:25,903 --> 00:26:26,123

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

614

00:26:26,213 --> 00:26:28,653

I, I think, I think you're

s- I think you're spot on.

615

00:26:29,103 --> 00:26:35,853

I, I have always believed that I, that

veterinarians should not judge clients.

616

00:26:36,173 --> 00:26:39,233

Like, I, I think that looking in the

parking lot and saying, "This person

617

00:26:39,233 --> 00:26:42,263

who's complaining about the price

is driving a BMW," I think that...

618

00:26:42,403 --> 00:26:43,253

I, I think that's bad.

619

00:26:43,253 --> 00:26:45,333

I think that's unfair to that

person, 'cause you really don't

620

00:26:45,333 --> 00:26:46,333

know anything about that person,

621

00:26:46,358 --> 00:26:46,898

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Mm-hmm.

622

00:26:46,993 --> 00:26:49,523

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

also it's only gonna make you unhappy,

623

00:26:49,523 --> 00:26:52,753

and it's not gonna change the situation,

and it just makes you resentful.

624

00:26:52,963 --> 00:26:57,553

It's kind of this poison that you're

drinking just for yourself, expecting

625

00:26:57,553 --> 00:26:59,943

it to somehow, like, cure a situation.

626

00:26:59,943 --> 00:27:01,753

It j- it just doesn't, it doesn't work.

627

00:27:02,253 --> 00:27:05,353

And, you know, it's funny, there's,

there's multiple ways to look at this.

628

00:27:05,353 --> 00:27:08,833

So, so there's the, the, you know, you

have the person with the BMW and the pet,

629

00:27:08,833 --> 00:27:12,443

and, you know, they lost their job, and

we ha- we have no idea, and it's not our

630

00:27:12,443 --> 00:27:13,923

business to know, and things like that.

631

00:27:14,333 --> 00:27:15,703

And I'll go even further.

632

00:27:15,703 --> 00:27:17,683

At the same time, I know that...

633

00:27:17,683 --> 00:27:20,923

So, Meals on Wheels is a charity that

I think is absolutely wonderful, right?

634

00:27:20,923 --> 00:27:23,993

it's, it's an organization that takes food

to people who can't leave their homes.

635

00:27:23,993 --> 00:27:26,553

Most of these people are,

are, are elderly people.

636

00:27:26,553 --> 00:27:27,703

Most of them live alone.

637

00:27:27,973 --> 00:27:29,413

It's not even just the

food that they bring.

638

00:27:29,413 --> 00:27:29,583

It's the...

639

00:27:29,583 --> 00:27:32,103

It, it, the nutrition is, is really

important for these people, but

640

00:27:32,133 --> 00:27:36,043

also just the companionship, having

someone come to their home, and,

641

00:27:36,043 --> 00:27:38,213

like, that, I love that organization.

642

00:27:38,213 --> 00:27:40,013

That organization means a lot to me.

643

00:27:40,433 --> 00:27:44,003

And there are statistics about what

percentage of the people who receive,

644

00:27:44,003 --> 00:27:47,503

like, Meals on Wheels also have pets,

and one of the big problems that Meals

645

00:27:47,503 --> 00:27:52,953

on Wheels have is that these people will

give part of their food, which is one meal

646

00:27:52,953 --> 00:27:55,873

a day, they will give it to their pet.

647

00:27:56,333 --> 00:27:59,603

And I would never wanna

take that person's pet away.

648

00:27:59,853 --> 00:28:03,143

I, I, like, w- I, I can get emotional

sort of thinking about, like, imagine

649

00:28:03,143 --> 00:28:06,393

just being by yourself, and you're

puttering around this little apartment

650

00:28:06,443 --> 00:28:10,203

or this little house all day and, and

you have very limited mobility, and

651

00:28:10,423 --> 00:28:13,123

you've got this little companion, and

someone's like, "Well, you can't afford

652

00:28:13,123 --> 00:28:14,203

that pet, so you shouldn't have it."

653

00:28:14,203 --> 00:28:17,203

I'm like, like, that's horrible to...

654

00:28:17,243 --> 00:28:17,903

Like, and you know what I mean?

655

00:28:18,083 --> 00:28:21,753

Like, that is absolute

villainy in, in my mind.

656

00:28:22,043 --> 00:28:22,803

I saw this guy.

657

00:28:22,803 --> 00:28:23,813

I was just driving down the road.

658

00:28:23,853 --> 00:28:27,523

This is, like, yesterday morning,

driving down the road, and there was

659

00:28:27,523 --> 00:28:31,153

this guy just walking down the railroad

track, 'cause the, the road goes over

660

00:28:31,153 --> 00:28:33,613

the bridge, which is over the railroad

tracks, and he, he's walking down.

661

00:28:33,693 --> 00:28:34,893

He's got his backpack on.

662

00:28:34,893 --> 00:28:38,953

I'm presuming it's probably everything

he owns in this backpack, and it was just

663

00:28:38,953 --> 00:28:43,033

that picture because he had the yellow

Lab that was just, you know, just kind

664

00:28:43,033 --> 00:28:48,373

of trailing behind him, and, like, you

could tell, just at 45 miles an hour, you

665

00:28:48,373 --> 00:28:50,353

could tell that dog was with that guy.

666

00:28:50,663 --> 00:28:51,183

And there was...

667

00:28:51,183 --> 00:28:53,363

It wasn't, there was no leash, which

again, you could say, "That's awful.

668

00:28:53,363 --> 00:28:53,803

He should have a leash."

669

00:28:53,803 --> 00:28:54,863

Like, he didn't have a leash.

670

00:28:55,233 --> 00:28:58,773

He was just walking along behind

this guy, and I'm like, "I would

671

00:28:58,773 --> 00:29:00,453

never wanna separate those people."

672

00:29:31,630 --> 00:29:36,810

someone who's got seven dogs is screaming,

has screamed at this vet, "How dare you?

673

00:29:36,810 --> 00:29:39,540

How could you, charge

this, you know, for this?"

674

00:29:39,540 --> 00:29:40,100

Or whatever.

675

00:29:40,530 --> 00:29:44,240

And the person, I'm like, "You know,

look, this person's got a pile of animals,

676

00:29:44,740 --> 00:29:50,170

and it's not your responsibility to

pay for their, for their healthcare."

677

00:29:50,170 --> 00:29:52,460

Like, that's not the

responsibility of the veterinarian.

678

00:29:52,860 --> 00:29:57,050

And so when I have that thought, or if I

say that, that's really what I'm, what I'm

679

00:29:57,050 --> 00:29:59,246

sort of getting at is I, I believe that.

680

00:29:59,466 --> 00:30:02,929

And so it's funny, I saw, there

was a survey that came out, and

681

00:30:02,929 --> 00:30:04,579

it was, it gave vets two options.

682

00:30:04,579 --> 00:30:06,709

It was for veterinarians, gave

them two options, and it said,

683

00:30:07,029 --> 00:30:10,269

"Which of these two statements are

you most likely to agree with?"

684

00:30:10,269 --> 00:30:11,349

You only have two options.

685

00:30:11,349 --> 00:30:15,199

The first one was, "If people can't

afford pets, they shouldn't have them."

686

00:30:15,449 --> 00:30:19,119

And the second one was, "The vet

industry has a responsibility

687

00:30:19,479 --> 00:30:21,369

to help people get care."

688

00:30:21,989 --> 00:30:23,389

And that was the two, the two options.

689

00:30:23,479 --> 00:30:27,669

And I felt like that was really a

manipulative question because I think,

690

00:30:28,009 --> 00:30:31,489

I think that that whole if people who

can't afford pets shouldn't have them, I

691

00:30:31,489 --> 00:30:34,739

think that that's language that's meant

to be emotional, and it makes you feel

692

00:30:34,739 --> 00:30:37,439

like a villain if you check that box.

693

00:30:37,469 --> 00:30:39,339

I think it's meant to make

vets feel like a villain.

694

00:30:39,899 --> 00:30:44,959

And the only other option is, in my

mind, veterinarians have a responsibility

695

00:30:44,959 --> 00:30:46,469

to make this happen for people.

696

00:30:46,949 --> 00:30:50,959

And I go, I, I don't think that

that's a reasonable expectation.

697

00:30:50,959 --> 00:30:55,569

Like, I, and I don't like the moral

weight being put on me of, "Hey, Andy

698

00:30:55,569 --> 00:31:00,359

Roark," in- say you're an independent

practice owner, "Hey, you need to,

699

00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:04,904

like- Either, either people who can't

afford pets shouldn't have them, or

700

00:31:05,084 --> 00:31:06,944

you need to make this care happen.

701

00:31:06,944 --> 00:31:08,424

I'm like, "Well, wait a second now.

702

00:31:08,744 --> 00:31:13,324

I, I didn't, I didn't sign up to pick

up the tab for everyone who comes in and

703

00:31:13,324 --> 00:31:15,214

says they're having emotional hardships."

704

00:31:15,214 --> 00:31:18,434

Like, a- again, and, and maybe that

makes me seem like a monster, but I'm

705

00:31:18,434 --> 00:31:24,174

really looking at this as a practitioner

of almost 20 years who loves this

706

00:31:24,174 --> 00:31:25,934

job and who wants to keep going.

707

00:31:26,494 --> 00:31:30,424

And as I-- boy, I've seen so many

of our colleagues, I've seen them

708

00:31:30,454 --> 00:31:35,364

financially, you know, just crash and

burn because they gave everything away.

709

00:31:35,364 --> 00:31:36,754

They couldn't charge for their services.

710

00:31:36,754 --> 00:31:39,974

And I understand their heart was in

the right place, but they ended up

711

00:31:39,974 --> 00:31:44,050

working until they died because they,

like, they, they weren't able to

712

00:31:44,050 --> 00:31:47,090

take care of themselves financially

because they didn't feel that that

713

00:31:47,090 --> 00:31:48,230

was something that they could do.

714

00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,945

And then also just the burnout, you

know, of the people who are like,

715

00:31:52,015 --> 00:31:55,115

"I want to go home and be with

my family and my young children."

716

00:31:55,935 --> 00:31:58,455

But these people, you know, "But

you have a responsibility to

717

00:31:58,455 --> 00:32:01,865

stay here and do surgery tonight

because, you know, that's, that's

718

00:32:01,865 --> 00:32:03,215

the only way this is gonna get done.

719

00:32:03,215 --> 00:32:05,995

And also, by the way, these people

can't really pay for it, so you're

720

00:32:05,995 --> 00:32:07,295

also gonna lose money doing it."

721

00:32:07,935 --> 00:32:11,585

And I go, "I, I'm sorry, I don't

think that that is a reasonable

722

00:32:11,585 --> 00:32:14,495

burden to put on veterinarians."

723

00:32:14,495 --> 00:32:17,975

And so anyway, it's, it's hard for me

to juggle both of those things of, of,

724

00:32:18,005 --> 00:32:21,825

of really wanting to support pet owners

and being non-judgmental, and also to

725

00:32:21,825 --> 00:32:26,155

be adamant, and I am adamant, it is not

the responsibility of the veterinarian

726

00:32:26,625 --> 00:32:28,625

to pay for people's healthcare.

727

00:32:28,625 --> 00:32:31,690

Like is our res- it is our responsibility

to do the best job that we can.

728

00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:34,380

It is our responsibility to

prioritize the, the care of the

729

00:32:34,380 --> 00:32:35,820

pet and to be the pet's advocate.

730

00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,550

Like there's-- we have a lot of

responsibilities, but actually

731

00:32:38,550 --> 00:32:42,170

picking up the tab, I, I don't know

that that is our responsibility.

732

00:32:42,475 --> 00:32:42,535

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah.

733

00:32:42,965 --> 00:32:44,195

And, and I agree with that.

734

00:32:44,245 --> 00:32:47,995

I think what-- I, I think, you know, like

you said, it's, it's our responsibility

735

00:32:47,995 --> 00:32:53,135

to, to work with clients and try to find,

you know, it's being comfortable offering

736

00:32:53,135 --> 00:32:57,305

that range of options or knowing that the

clinic up the street can, you know, can do

737

00:32:57,305 --> 00:33:02,485

that surgery and, and it's go-- you know,

here's the pros and cons of, you know,

738

00:33:02,485 --> 00:33:06,445

going to the specialist versus the n- you

know, the non-specialist for this surgery.

739

00:33:06,825 --> 00:33:10,015

But that doesn't mean it's, you know,

it doesn't mean it's below standard

740

00:33:10,015 --> 00:33:14,638

of care to go to and, and I think, you

know, and, and I think this is where,

741

00:33:14,887 --> 00:33:20,367

you know, and, and I hope to continue to

see more conversations around, know, how

742

00:33:20,367 --> 00:33:22,897

we, how we give people options to pay

743

00:33:23,002 --> 00:33:23,362

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yes.

744

00:33:23,717 --> 00:33:23,857

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

I

745

00:33:24,042 --> 00:33:24,432

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

746

00:33:24,807 --> 00:33:26,497

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

pay at time of service all or

747

00:33:26,497 --> 00:33:30,217

nothing is it-- we gotta change it.

748

00:33:30,627 --> 00:33:32,677

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Oh, I, I'm so, I am so with you.

749

00:33:32,727 --> 00:33:33,327

Like, this is...

750

00:33:33,327 --> 00:33:35,877

So this has been a project I'm

actually working on right now.

751

00:33:36,277 --> 00:33:36,957

And so I've had this...

752

00:33:36,957 --> 00:33:38,267

I've, I've, I've been

wrestling with this a lot.

753

00:33:38,737 --> 00:33:42,097

And so there, you know,

there are I said tinfoil hat.

754

00:33:42,287 --> 00:33:46,217

There are definitely people out there

who have ideas about how to give

755

00:33:46,217 --> 00:33:50,897

prescription medications to people more

cheaply, you know, or make wellness

756

00:33:50,897 --> 00:33:55,297

care happen more cheaply by, you know,

by, by not, by just saying people

757

00:33:55,297 --> 00:33:57,697

don't need to see veterinarians, that

physical examinations aren't important.

758

00:33:57,957 --> 00:33:59,407

And, and I think that that's...

759

00:33:59,847 --> 00:34:00,677

H- here's the thing.

760

00:34:01,065 --> 00:34:04,665

I think the vast majority of people

would save money under that model and

761

00:34:04,665 --> 00:34:05,955

not have problems, the vast majority.

762

00:34:06,395 --> 00:34:10,034

But the ones who do have problems

are gonna have huge problems, and

763

00:34:10,034 --> 00:34:11,784

pets are gonna suffer and die.

764

00:34:12,014 --> 00:34:15,784

And then those people are gonna show up

with a pet that has a foreign body for

765

00:34:15,784 --> 00:34:21,094

three days, you know, and is terribly

dehydrated or, a, a cat that's in, that's

766

00:34:21,094 --> 00:34:26,824

a, that's in DKA, diabetic ketoacidosis,

because we treated its, diabetes with

767

00:34:26,824 --> 00:34:30,245

some antibiotics because nobody does a

physical exam, nobody did any diagnostics.

768

00:34:30,449 --> 00:34:30,580

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah,

769

00:34:30,614 --> 00:34:30,755

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: And,

770

00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:31,710

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

checked the urine.

771

00:34:31,710 --> 00:34:33,199

They just assumed it was a UTI.

772

00:34:33,215 --> 00:34:34,155

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

exactly right.

773

00:34:34,185 --> 00:34:38,705

And, like, there's going to be a real and

significant cost for those unfortunate

774

00:34:38,705 --> 00:34:40,795

people, and I think that there's,

there's a big enough percentage of

775

00:34:40,795 --> 00:34:44,125

them that, that that's going to, that

that's gonna, that's gonna be a problem.

776

00:34:44,447 --> 00:34:45,518

And here's the thing.

777

00:34:45,722 --> 00:34:48,522

one, I, I think you're gonna see a

real problem with, with affordability

778

00:34:48,522 --> 00:34:52,192

of care when people have been told,

"Oh, you don't need to see the vet.

779

00:34:52,192 --> 00:34:53,272

You can do these other things."

780

00:34:53,272 --> 00:34:55,331

And now we're gonna get pets

three days later, and you're

781

00:34:55,331 --> 00:34:56,431

gonna see a real problem in care.

782

00:34:56,661 --> 00:34:59,702

The other thing is this, and this

isn't, this is about sort of any of

783

00:34:59,702 --> 00:35:03,075

the online pharmacies or pharmacies,

moving out of the vet clinic.

784

00:35:04,005 --> 00:35:11,045

Vet medicine was built on a model where

product sales subsidized veterinarian time

785

00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:11,900

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Mm-hmm.

786

00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:13,720

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

It like, from the ol-- from James

787

00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:16,930

Herriot days, like he didn't

charge for his hourly rate.

788

00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,540

He went out there and he sold

dewormer and vaccines, and that

789

00:35:20,540 --> 00:35:21,910

paid for his time and energy.

790

00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,070

And veterinarians to

this day still do that.

791

00:35:25,460 --> 00:35:29,220

I s- I would say, honestly, the time when

you go into a vet clinic and you see the

792

00:35:29,220 --> 00:35:32,990

technician who's credentialed, and you

see the veterinarian, and you talk to them

793

00:35:32,990 --> 00:35:37,330

and you're there for 45 minutes, or heaven

forbid, your pet's there for surgery

794

00:35:37,330 --> 00:35:41,590

and they're doing an hour-long surgery,

and you've got multiple technicians and,

795

00:35:41,590 --> 00:35:45,700

you know, things like that, all of that

cost has been subsidized by products.

796

00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:49,040

And if those products go away and

people buy that stuff somewhere else,

797

00:35:49,780 --> 00:35:53,180

there's not gonna be any alternative

except for veterinarians to charge

798

00:35:53,250 --> 00:35:57,160

purely for the time of their, their,

of themselves and their people.

799

00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:01,110

And you're going to see the cost of, of

things like surgeries, you're gonna see

800

00:36:01,110 --> 00:36:05,200

diagnostic costs, they are going to go up

to make up for the fact that these profit

801

00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:06,900

centers have been lost from vet practices.

802

00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,500

And again, I don't-- I'm not blaming

pet owners, and I don't expect pet

803

00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:14,500

owners to have this long view of,

"If I get a script and go somewhere

804

00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:16,930

else, the long-term impacts are this."

805

00:36:16,980 --> 00:36:17,760

I don't expect that.

806

00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,750

And they, they're not

bad for trying to find

807

00:36:19,950 --> 00:36:20,140

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Mm-hmm.

808

00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,770

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

the, the best way to, to take

809

00:36:21,770 --> 00:36:23,110

care of their pets and save money.

810

00:36:23,110 --> 00:36:24,580

I can't blame anybody for that at all.

811

00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,190

But I still do look at that

and say, I think that there's

812

00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:30,040

two types of access to care.

813

00:36:30,370 --> 00:36:34,880

There's access to care, around

wellness care, you know, like vaccines,

814

00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,910

deworming, just flea control, and

then there's, access to care for

815

00:36:39,940 --> 00:36:41,470

surgical procedures, things like that.

816

00:36:41,660 --> 00:36:44,270

And when you say, "If people can't

afford pets, they shouldn't have them,"

817

00:36:44,300 --> 00:36:47,370

I thought you brought this up earlier

really nicely, what are we talking about?

818

00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:51,070

Are we talking about if you can't

afford rabies vac- a rabies vaccine,

819

00:36:51,070 --> 00:36:51,920

then you shouldn't have a pet?

820

00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,150

Like, well, I mean, at some point, maybe

that's ma- like we're at, that's pretty,

821

00:36:55,150 --> 00:36:56,840

that's a pretty bad spot to be in.

822

00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:03,190

or are you saying if you can't afford

to go and pay $2,500 for a foreign

823

00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:04,520

body surgery, you shouldn't have a pet?

824

00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,480

And I go, I don't think anybody thinks

that that's, that that's the case.

825

00:37:07,635 --> 00:37:08,075

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Mm-hmm.

826

00:37:08,580 --> 00:37:10,960

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

anyway, I just, I think that, I think

827

00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,000

that's starting to kind of get into the

nuance of like, what are, what are we,

828

00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:15,170

what are we even talking about here?

829

00:37:15,370 --> 00:37:18,560

Anyway, I, I think, I think overall,

I think trying to judge people and

830

00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:19,610

say, "This person should have a pet.

831

00:37:19,850 --> 00:37:22,590

This person shouldn't have a pet," I

don't think any of that stuff makes sense.

832

00:37:22,820 --> 00:37:25,130

I think that you're absolutely

right about we need to talk to

833

00:37:25,130 --> 00:37:26,540

people about how to get, care

834

00:37:26,625 --> 00:37:26,775

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Mm-hmm.

835

00:37:26,775 --> 00:37:27,505

Mm-hmm.

836

00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:28,050

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

pay for it.

837

00:37:28,050 --> 00:37:30,470

And so I was, you know, thinking

about surgeries and, and the higher

838

00:37:30,470 --> 00:37:32,080

cost, you know, of, of procedures.

839

00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,442

I bought, I bought tickets to see the

Atlanta Hawks to play with my daughter.

840

00:37:36,442 --> 00:37:38,862

So she's re- she's gotten really

into sports, and she's like, "I

841

00:37:38,862 --> 00:37:40,252

wanna go see these basketball games."

842

00:37:40,802 --> 00:37:43,882

And I went and I looked at what do NBA

tickets cost, and they're not, they're not

843

00:37:43,882 --> 00:37:45,142

wildly expensive, but they're not cheap.

844

00:37:45,522 --> 00:37:49,562

But the thing that struck me, Kate,

was from the moment you start looking

845

00:37:49,562 --> 00:37:53,842

at tickets, they are showing you

what they cost on a monthly basis.

846

00:37:54,202 --> 00:37:56,972

Like, just straight, straight

off the bat, they were like...

847

00:37:57,232 --> 00:37:59,642

You know, I looked at the Atlanta

Hawks and they were like, "This

848

00:37:59,642 --> 00:38:00,922

is, this is the full price.

849

00:38:01,122 --> 00:38:02,512

This is your Hawks pay price."

850

00:38:02,512 --> 00:38:04,562

And it was broken down

into a monthly payment.

851

00:38:04,872 --> 00:38:06,852

And it was like they

didn't wait for you to ask.

852

00:38:06,882 --> 00:38:10,372

They didn't let you say, "Oh, this is

too expensive," or things like that.

853

00:38:10,632 --> 00:38:13,992

They were just very upfront with, "This

is how we can break these prices down.

854

00:38:13,992 --> 00:38:14,832

This is what we can do."

855

00:38:15,202 --> 00:38:18,872

And that kind of spoke to me as

like, maybe, you know, I don't see

856

00:38:18,872 --> 00:38:22,622

a downside to us as a profession

starting to think more about that

857

00:38:22,622 --> 00:38:23,622

and trying to help people that way.

858

00:38:23,957 --> 00:38:25,577

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah, and there's da-- there are, you

859

00:38:25,577 --> 00:38:28,437

know, there are companies that run

managed payment plans, and there are

860

00:38:28,437 --> 00:38:31,347

published papers with high repayment rates

861

00:38:31,502 --> 00:38:31,782

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yes.

862

00:38:32,275 --> 00:38:34,055

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

so I do, I, I, you know, it, it is in

863

00:38:34,055 --> 00:38:38,705

a model I'm very interested in and,

and do a lot of, you know, you know,

864

00:38:38,705 --> 00:38:42,195

kind of try to keep up with, you know,

what's available and all of that.

865

00:38:42,195 --> 00:38:45,675

And, you know, going back to

your responsibility, comment

866

00:38:45,675 --> 00:38:47,145

earlier, you know, I, I agree.

867

00:38:47,185 --> 00:38:51,990

That should not be responsible

for subsidizing the care But I do

868

00:38:51,990 --> 00:38:56,660

think we need to be responsible

for educating clients about the

869

00:38:56,660 --> 00:38:58,810

importance of that routine care.

870

00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:04,130

The importance of, hey, if you are coming

in for that routine exam and, you know,

871

00:39:04,130 --> 00:39:08,190

hey, you've mentioned now that your cat's

PU/PD and we noticed it lost a pound this

872

00:39:08,190 --> 00:39:10,030

year, maybe, you know, we're gonna have

873

00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:10,540

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

874

00:39:11,210 --> 00:39:12,600

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

And I've had some clients where I've said,

875

00:39:12,670 --> 00:39:14,780

"Hey, you know, this is an obese cat.

876

00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,200

They've lost a little bit of weight.

877

00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,190

You're telling me you feel

like they're drinking more.

878

00:39:18,483 --> 00:39:20,813

Yeah, ideally, let's run

a full senior blood panel.

879

00:39:21,183 --> 00:39:23,623

If we can't do that, how about

we just check a blood sugar?"

880

00:39:23,943 --> 00:39:24,263

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

881

00:39:24,563 --> 00:39:25,393

Yeah, yeah.

882

00:39:25,553 --> 00:39:26,983

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

caught diabetes that way of

883

00:39:26,983 --> 00:39:27,863

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Yeah, or I was gonna say, or

884

00:39:27,863 --> 00:39:29,323

check, check, check your analysis.

885

00:39:29,323 --> 00:39:30,023

Yeah, something like that.

886

00:39:30,023 --> 00:39:30,213

Yeah.

887

00:39:30,253 --> 00:39:30,933

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

usually, I...

888

00:39:31,063 --> 00:39:32,873

The blood sugar's cheap,

so I'm like, "Let's check

889

00:39:32,883 --> 00:39:33,383

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Oh, nice.

890

00:39:33,863 --> 00:39:34,223

Yeah.

891

00:39:34,283 --> 00:39:36,143

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

high, now we're gonna run...

892

00:39:36,213 --> 00:39:40,093

You know, now I have more to say,

"Hey, this-- I'm really concerned

893

00:39:40,093 --> 00:39:41,483

that this could be diabetes.

894

00:39:42,503 --> 00:39:42,933

the other...

895

00:39:42,933 --> 00:39:44,923

You know, here's what we

need to do to confirm this."

896

00:39:45,193 --> 00:39:45,453

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

897

00:39:45,593 --> 00:39:46,253

I think you're right.

898

00:39:46,563 --> 00:39:49,953

I, I remember early on I had a mentor

that, that I worked with and, you know,

899

00:39:49,983 --> 00:39:52,893

we had, I can't remember what case it

was or what was going on, but, but it was

900

00:39:52,893 --> 00:39:56,703

something and, and the owner really could

not afford-- They couldn't afford care.

901

00:39:56,703 --> 00:39:57,913

They could afford some of the care.

902

00:39:58,413 --> 00:40:01,273

And I kind of went to the, this guy,

'cause he was the boss and he owned

903

00:40:01,273 --> 00:40:03,733

the place, and I was like, "You know,

I'm looking at this and I wanna help

904

00:40:03,733 --> 00:40:06,473

these people out, and this is kind

of what they have, and I'm just kind

905

00:40:06,473 --> 00:40:09,383

of where I really truly think we

need to get to in order to do care

906

00:40:09,383 --> 00:40:10,743

that's gonna actually help this pet."

907

00:40:10,743 --> 00:40:11,353

And he was like, "You know what?

908

00:40:11,353 --> 00:40:11,793

Just do it."

909

00:40:12,733 --> 00:40:13,993

And I said, "Okay."

910

00:40:14,113 --> 00:40:16,573

and it sort of my business mind was

kicking in, but I was like, "How do

911

00:40:16,573 --> 00:40:18,053

you, how do you kind of justify that?"

912

00:40:18,053 --> 00:40:18,953

I asked him later, like, "How do you..."

913

00:40:18,993 --> 00:40:20,723

He like, "You just, just, just do it."

914

00:40:20,723 --> 00:40:23,853

And he said, "You know, some things

in vet medicine are the cost of

915

00:40:23,853 --> 00:40:27,173

doing business, and like sometimes

you just take care of people.

916

00:40:27,173 --> 00:40:28,023

That's just what you do."

917

00:40:28,493 --> 00:40:28,733

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Mm-hmm.

918

00:40:28,983 --> 00:40:29,993

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

always remembered that, and

919

00:40:29,993 --> 00:40:31,293

I think he's totally right.

920

00:40:31,593 --> 00:40:36,403

But I think that I, I think I rage

against the expectation that veterinarians

921

00:40:36,403 --> 00:40:40,713

will pick up the tab even while

I don't personally have that much

922

00:40:40,713 --> 00:40:42,793

of a problem, you know, sometimes,

923

00:40:43,303 --> 00:40:43,543

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah.

924

00:40:43,893 --> 00:40:45,183

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

like trying to help people out.

925

00:40:45,183 --> 00:40:48,433

But it's funny, but it's really

about like, for me, it's very much...

926

00:40:48,623 --> 00:40:51,613

It's one thing when you do something

nice for someone and they're, and

927

00:40:51,613 --> 00:40:54,093

they're grateful, and you feel good

that you did this and you helped.

928

00:40:54,293 --> 00:40:57,203

It's another thing when you do something

nice for someone and they fully just

929

00:40:57,203 --> 00:41:00,363

expected you to do that for them, and

they don't seem to be appreciative of it.

930

00:41:00,363 --> 00:41:01,243

And, and I, I...

931

00:41:01,243 --> 00:41:03,963

A- And there's just, there's so

much nuance and context around,

932

00:41:03,993 --> 00:41:05,233

around money and judgment.

933

00:41:05,233 --> 00:41:08,603

And I think that this is an area

that, it's where we obviously continue

934

00:41:08,603 --> 00:41:12,053

to-- we need to continue to kind

of work and sort of find our path.

935

00:41:12,053 --> 00:41:14,673

And I don't think there's gonna

be a, you know, a magic solution

936

00:41:14,673 --> 00:41:15,653

that's gonna fix everything.

937

00:41:15,873 --> 00:41:17,243

I think it's gonna be multimodal.

938

00:41:17,243 --> 00:41:19,253

I think it's a lot about

communication and planning.

939

00:41:19,253 --> 00:41:21,613

I do think we can do a lot more

work in payment strategies.

940

00:41:21,993 --> 00:41:25,273

I think that we can do more work

in talking about pet insurance,

941

00:41:25,273 --> 00:41:28,493

especially as the cost of like emergency

surgery and things go up, which is

942

00:41:28,493 --> 00:41:29,743

what pet insurance is perfect for.

943

00:41:30,033 --> 00:41:31,533

There-- I just think that there's

a lot of things like that.

944

00:41:31,817 --> 00:41:31,906

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

there's

945

00:41:31,996 --> 00:41:32,126

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Cool.

946

00:41:33,006 --> 00:41:34,466

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

lot of opportunity, and I think we're

947

00:41:34,466 --> 00:41:38,111

at the I feel like we're kind of at

a crossroads in the profession where

948

00:41:38,271 --> 00:41:42,021

there's, there's a lot of external

threats, there's a lot of opinions,

949

00:41:42,461 --> 00:41:46,451

and it's, you know, it's time for us to

decide what we want the profession to

950

00:41:46,686 --> 00:41:46,796

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

951

00:41:47,576 --> 00:41:48,106

Oh, I agree.

952

00:41:48,121 --> 00:41:49,181

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

want that future to be.

953

00:41:49,496 --> 00:41:52,916

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: My,

my worry is that there will be a push,

954

00:41:53,246 --> 00:41:58,006

powered by public sentiment about vet

medicine being too expensive that will

955

00:41:58,006 --> 00:42:05,006

make wellness care much cheaper for,

pet owners and drive the cost of things

956

00:42:05,006 --> 00:42:08,536

like s- like life-saving emergencies,

like surgeries, things like that.

957

00:42:08,536 --> 00:42:11,736

That's gonna really drive those

costs up because, vets are gonna

958

00:42:11,736 --> 00:42:14,266

lose a- all those sort of the profit

centers, and they're not gonna be

959

00:42:14,266 --> 00:42:15,346

able to subsidize those things.

960

00:42:15,346 --> 00:42:18,856

And, and I, I really worry that we're

gonna move much more towards a culture

961

00:42:18,856 --> 00:42:25,236

where, euthanasia is a very common,

response to things that in the past we

962

00:42:25,236 --> 00:42:28,516

could have fixed surgically, but just

the costs have just gone up so much.

963

00:42:28,516 --> 00:42:30,136

And it was, it was interesting.

964

00:42:30,136 --> 00:42:32,066

I was, I was listening to

somebody, and they were talking

965

00:42:32,116 --> 00:42:36,316

they were talking about, you know, having

a foreign body procedure, for, for $7,000.

966

00:42:36,676 --> 00:42:38,556

And again, I live in South

Carolina, and they were like,

967

00:42:38,586 --> 00:42:39,616

"Oh, yeah, you know, we, we...

968

00:42:39,616 --> 00:42:42,416

You go in and you do the

$7,000 foreign body procedure."

969

00:42:42,634 --> 00:42:45,434

And Kate, I remember when foreign

bodies were, you know, we could

970

00:42:45,434 --> 00:42:49,044

get it done $1,500, $2,000, and

I haven't been around that long.

971

00:42:49,287 --> 00:42:51,557

but that was just wild to me, $7,000.

972

00:42:51,557 --> 00:42:55,367

And it's like I just don't know many

people who got $7,000 laying around.

973

00:42:55,957 --> 00:42:57,647

And so anyway, that's,

that's sort of my concern.

974

00:42:57,913 --> 00:43:00,813

Well, thank you for being here, my

friend, and talking through this with me.

975

00:43:00,813 --> 00:43:01,673

I love your writing.

976

00:43:01,673 --> 00:43:02,513

I love your articles.

977

00:43:02,513 --> 00:43:05,223

I love digging into these,

into these ideas and getting

978

00:43:05,223 --> 00:43:06,103

into the nuance with you.

979

00:43:06,445 --> 00:43:08,055

Kate, where can people find you online?

980

00:43:08,055 --> 00:43:10,255

Where can they follow along with

what you do and learn more about it?

981

00:43:10,435 --> 00:43:10,785

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

Yeah.

982

00:43:10,785 --> 00:43:16,455

So the best way to follow along, is to

follow me on either Instagram or LinkedIn.

983

00:43:16,735 --> 00:43:17,665

I do post the same

984

00:43:26,090 --> 00:43:40,842

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434: Yeah.

985

00:43:41,016 --> 00:43:43,116

kate-boatright--she-her-_1_04-29-2026_130440:

is, you know, kind of that perpetual like

986

00:43:43,116 --> 00:43:44,826

to-do list that doesn't have a deadline.

987

00:43:45,196 --> 00:43:48,636

but someday it'll get updated, to, to

better encompass what I'm doing now.

988

00:43:48,636 --> 00:43:52,596

But I, and then I'm in-- I write

for a lot of the magazines.

989

00:43:52,636 --> 00:43:55,286

I often hear people saying like,

you know, when I meet them like,

990

00:43:55,646 --> 00:43:57,786

"Oh yeah, I've seen your name

around," or, "I've met you before."

991

00:43:57,786 --> 00:43:59,636

And I'm like, "I, I don't

know where you saw it.

992

00:43:59,636 --> 00:44:00,146

I'm sorry.

993

00:44:00,146 --> 00:44:00,716

It's everywhere."

994

00:44:00,905 --> 00:44:04,725

but yeah, I mean, I love talking access to

care and spectrum of care and mentorship,

995

00:44:04,795 --> 00:44:06,895

so absolutely please reach out.

996

00:44:07,421 --> 00:44:07,971

dr--andy-roark-_1_04-29-2026_130434:

Outstanding.

997

00:44:08,011 --> 00:44:08,621

Thanks, Kate.

998

00:44:08,881 --> 00:44:09,561

Thanks, everybody.

999

00:44:09,561 --> 00:44:10,591

I'll talk to you guys later on

1000

00:44:11,097 --> 00:44:12,567

Speaker: And that's what we got guys.

1001

00:44:12,567 --> 00:44:13,467

Thanks for being here.

1002

00:44:13,467 --> 00:44:15,687

Thanks to Kate for

Boatright for, joining us.

1003

00:44:15,747 --> 00:44:18,257

gang, I hope that, I hope you,

had something to think about

1004

00:44:18,257 --> 00:44:20,057

here and, that you enjoyed it.

1005

00:44:20,057 --> 00:44:23,087

If you did, enjoy the episode, like

subscribe, you know, write a, write

1006

00:44:23,087 --> 00:44:26,297

us an honest review, whatever,

whatever your little platform where

1007

00:44:26,297 --> 00:44:29,537

you get podcasts or watch on YouTube

allows you to do, that's fantastic.

1008

00:44:29,747 --> 00:44:31,397

Anyway, gang, take care.

1009

00:44:31,397 --> 00:44:32,207

I'll talk to you later on.

1010

00:44:32,447 --> 00:44:32,717

Bye.