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“You cannot afford to make a mistake. It needs to be perfect the entire time because your whole yield figures, your business plan, your financing is based on this full production. So if halfway it fails and you have to restart, well, you’re in trouble,” says Olivier Paulus, owner and founder of Verteberry, who shares his journey transforming from engineer to strawberry innovator on Greenhouse Success Stories.
After pioneering one of Belgium’s earliest vertical farms and transitioning to Quebec, Olivier Paulus reveals the complexities of year-round berry production, the pivotal role of plant quality, and the razor-thin margin for error that defines modern greenhouse entrepreneurship. His hands-on, “biology first” approach, strategic partnerships, and candid insights into the challenges of R&D, scaling, and commercial viability make for an episode packed with actionable wisdom for anyone eyeing success in controlled-environment agriculture. Curious about the future of strawberries in snow and why lean, honest growing sets the foundation for breakthrough results? Don’t miss this episode.
5 Key Takeaways
Every greenhouse breakthrough starts with bold action—here’s what to do next:
- You don’t need a farming background to succeed. Dive into research, ask questions, and let curiosity fuel your first grow—starting small is better than not starting at all.
- Forget shortcuts. Quality crops always come first—focus relentlessly on plant health and let technology and profit strategies follow afterwards.
- Scaling takes grit and real relationships. Reach out to industry leaders, invite feedback, and collaborate—connection and transparency accelerate your progress.
- The market loves reliability. Build systems for consistent, repeatable results—use quick trials, learn from mistakes, and measure success by customer satisfaction.
- Stay lean and honest. Get your hands dirty, keep costs tight, and regularly check your work—your plants will always tell you the truth, so listen and adapt.
Memorable Quotes
"You cannot afford to make a mistake. It needs to be perfect the entire time because your whole yield figures, your business plan, your financing is based on this full production. So if halfway it fails and you have to restart, you're in trouble."
"The most important advice is really work on that lean and mean mindset. Pull that mindset into becoming a good grower or finding a good grower. Do not lie to yourself—the plants will tell the truth. You cannot hack it. Make sure you get a good crop, whether it's lettuce, herb, or strawberry. Start with that."
"We've been doing this for eight years and I still feel there is so much to learn, so much to improve on so many fronts. That's the challenging but also the motivating part."
Connect with Olivier + Vertiberry
Olivier's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olivierpaulus/
Vertiberry Website: https://vertiberry.com/
Vertiberry's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/vertiberry/
Vertiberry Instagram: http://instagram.com/vertiberry
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Mentioned in this episode:
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
Transcripts
You cannot afford to make a mistake. It needs to be perfect the
Speaker:entire time because your whole yield figures, your
Speaker:business plan, your financing is based on this full
Speaker:production. So if halfway it fails and you have to restart,
Speaker:well, you're in trouble. Welcome to Greenhouse Success
Speaker:Stories. Tune in every week as we share conversations with growers,
Speaker:operators and innovators from around the world, providing insight into
Speaker:what's working in their greenhouses. We discuss firsthand experiences
Speaker:and provide insights into how these farms are succeeding and thriving.
Speaker:Special thanks to our title sponsor, Arnoix Greenhouse, with your
Speaker:host, founder of Little Greenhouse that could, Trina Semenchuk.
Speaker:Okay, good morning everybody. I'm super excited for this guest
Speaker:on Greenhouse Success Stories. Today we have
Speaker:Oliver Paulus. He is the owner and
Speaker:founder of Vertaberry. He's been working on Vertebrae
Speaker:for eight years. They grow strawberry plugs. Very
Speaker:excited to learn more from his expertise. So thank you for being on
Speaker:the show, Oliver. Yeah, Trina, thanks for having me. And I'm also
Speaker:looking forward to his interview and just talk a bit about what we've been doing
Speaker:in the past and also what you're going to do, of course, in the future.
Speaker:Thanks again. Yeah, yeah. And I think you guys are in a really unique space,
Speaker:especially here, here at Montreal that you're based out of right
Speaker:now, right? Yeah. So we are just, let's say 45 minutes outside of
Speaker:Montreal. So we're in what they call zonectech, which
Speaker:is an agricultural development area. So for us, it creates really the
Speaker:perfect base to position the company and also have some backing,
Speaker:both on the political side, but also on the, on the visibility of our
Speaker:project. We are not somewhere in the lost countryside.
Speaker:So can you speak more to that political backing that you
Speaker:currently have based on where you are in Montreal? Like, have you been talking to
Speaker:any of MPs or members of parliament in Canada who are really
Speaker:supporting this initiative? Yeah. So so far we haven't been speaking,
Speaker:let's say with, with any ministers or so, or very limited.
Speaker:But the political backing, however, is more related to
Speaker:everything about food sovereignty. In days
Speaker:like today, with the whole situation also with Trump, everyone creating
Speaker:agendas of being more independent then any kind of project,
Speaker:whether it's a vertical farm, a greenhouse or food production, gets
Speaker:attention. And it's also important for us to really understand what are the
Speaker:regions looking for, what does it mean food sovereignty and how
Speaker:can we help? And we do believe that having, let's say, more modern
Speaker:growing method, being more climate independent and more independent in general
Speaker:will also help these people. Politicians Regions
Speaker:integrate our solutions in their agenda. Yeah, right. And meet their
Speaker:goals and their targets. Yeah. And I, I don't know too
Speaker:many year round berry growers in Canada. I know. Have you heard of
Speaker:the Weston Family Foundation? The Homegrown Innovation
Speaker:Challenge? Yeah. So we've also participated in that
Speaker:and indeed especially in more. I'm not going to call it
Speaker:extreme climate, but let's say the climate is very diverse here. We have the very
Speaker:cold winters, very hot summers. In the end, at the moment it's like 30 degrees,
Speaker:high humidity. So creating solutions to grow
Speaker:truly year round, it's a challenge even for modern greenhouses.
Speaker:So it was nice and neat with the foundation. They had this program, the
Speaker:Homegrown Innovation Challenge. I need to support any
Speaker:kind of player, from low tech to high tech to come up
Speaker:with solutions, with business models, with ideas how we could grow
Speaker:berries in general, small only strawberries around in Canada.
Speaker:Oh, that's excellent. So I know that you've just moved to Montreal,
Speaker:but before then you were based in Belgium. Yeah,
Speaker:correct. Yeah. So maybe talk a bit about how you started
Speaker:Verdiberry and how you got into growing strawberries.
Speaker:I'll try, I'll try to keep it short and then to the point. Keep it
Speaker:short. Yeah. Because there is quite a story behind it. So
Speaker:indeed we've created a company. It's going to be close to eight years ago
Speaker:and I think like many startups, it just started with a
Speaker:crazy idea. I had a nice job. I was sitting in
Speaker:my office one day and I just got a call from someone like, hey
Speaker:dude, do you want to become a farmer? And I was like, yeah,
Speaker:sure, let's have a beer. And we just started talking about
Speaker:it. We had like a common connection in the vertical farming industry
Speaker:and it looked very appealing to me. So my background is in engineering,
Speaker:so I was just looking for a curious new challenge and
Speaker:that's how we started. So we really started from scratch. I had
Speaker:no background in agriculture whatsoever, so we
Speaker:just built a small prototype. And with that prototype we
Speaker:went to business. Angels did a few pitches and these
Speaker:guys were like, okay, sure, here's a little bit more money,
Speaker:keep on going. And with that we build a bigger system. And then
Speaker:we were able to close a deal with a big national
Speaker:retailer in Belgium called Deleze. And for them we
Speaker:produced typical potted herbs, so basil,
Speaker:parsley, coriander, and they were distributed all over
Speaker:Belgium. So it was quite nice that we were one of the
Speaker:first vertical farms in Belgium on a commercial scale to be able to
Speaker:produce in a Profitable way herbs and pulp for big
Speaker:national markets. So just curious on that. When you're first building,
Speaker:you know, your first prototype, you don't. You didn't have a background in
Speaker:agriculture. What did you find was the most challenging part on the growing
Speaker:process? Like, were you. Was it hard for you to grow plants
Speaker:when. Right when you first started or had you ever gardened before that?
Speaker:You speak a bit about that. I never even gardened a lot before that.
Speaker:I did spend a good amount of weeks just reading whatever
Speaker:possible documentation I could find, trying to get
Speaker:a baseline of knowledge. So when we talk about the
Speaker:growing, I think what was the hardest part, and it's still a hard part
Speaker:today, is. Yeah, there is no one formula.
Speaker:Yeah. So many ways to. To grow
Speaker:back in the days, leafy greens. And the same goes for strawberries. How
Speaker:extreme do you go? How close do you stay to
Speaker:the traditional ways of growing? So you have to make a lot of
Speaker:decisions and a lot of them is based on gut feeling, based on
Speaker:some quick trials and failing, fast
Speaker:failing forward. So that's how we started just talking with a
Speaker:bunch of suppliers that now became partners. Yeah,
Speaker:that was really the beginning. The good thing is with herbs, if I
Speaker:compare it to strawberries today, it was really easy. It
Speaker:almost grows like weeds. As long as you create the kind of right environment,
Speaker:you put in the seeds and it grows. And if it fails, you can start
Speaker:again in four to six weeks. So you. Your testing cycles are quite quick.
Speaker:Cranberries. That's a whole lot of ball game. How's the growing cycles with strawberries that
Speaker:you've experienced with? Because I haven't grown too many
Speaker:strawberries myself, actually. I don't think I've grown any strawberries yet, but
Speaker:I know I'm very familiar with herbs and lettuce, just like you. When I first
Speaker:started, I didn't have a background in agriculture or gardening and I built
Speaker:a little test facility and started learning how to do everything
Speaker:and grow everything. And it's a lot at. At. At first, it's a
Speaker:lot. It's not something that you can, you know, learn within
Speaker:a month or two months. Like it, it take it. It takes years
Speaker:to kind of get it, get the processes down, packed. But yeah, I'm
Speaker:curious what the growth cycles look like with strawberries in comparison to
Speaker:herbs. And how did you pivot and how did you pivot into
Speaker:strawberries? Okay, sure. But let me first say that I fully
Speaker:agree that it's indeed not easy because there is a difference between
Speaker:drawing something and doing it. The right way in order to make money,
Speaker:you cannot just do it in a few cycles. So we've been doing it for
Speaker:eight years and I still feel there is so much to
Speaker:learn, so much to improve on so many fronts. And
Speaker:that's also the part that is challenging, but also the motivating part.
Speaker:If we then go and look towards the growing cycle of the strawberries, it's a
Speaker:bit more complicated than the herbs. The herbs. You, let's say you buy a
Speaker:bag of seeds and then you have six weeks later, you have a crop that
Speaker:you can sell. If you want to replicate that reasoning
Speaker:in strawberries, if you go to the most modern way of growing today
Speaker:is you can actually buy strawberry seeds as well. Although it's very
Speaker:niche, they're doing your first trials. But if you go from a strawberry
Speaker:seed to first harvest, that will quickly
Speaker:take three months. And then from first harvest
Speaker:to last harvest, that can go up to eight months,
Speaker:nine months. So doing a full cycle
Speaker:is 12 months. So doing one cycle of learning
Speaker:stuff takes 12 months versus, let's say four to six weeks of
Speaker:leafy doings. If we then go to the
Speaker:way that we do it. So we do actually more
Speaker:related to the traditional way of growing strawberries. So we start
Speaker:from what they call cuttings. From these cuttings you create
Speaker:your own plants. And then from these plants you start growing your strawberry.
Speaker:Then the big question is, how do you get cuttings? So that is also something
Speaker:we produce ourselves from so called motor plants. So in
Speaker:strawberries, you actually start with what they call a mother plant and it
Speaker:produces runners. These are like, let's say it becomes a big bush. These
Speaker:runners become 2, 3 meters long. And afterwards you cut these
Speaker:runners in little pieces, what they call cuttings. And these cuttings you
Speaker:stick in a pot. If you take that entire process, that can
Speaker:easily add an additional four to six months
Speaker:to a cycle. So that brings that our test
Speaker:cycle from scratch to final harvest
Speaker:can easily go up to 18 months.
Speaker:So hence the big challenge in strawberries for both research but also
Speaker:commercial production, you 18 months. You cannot
Speaker:afford to make a mistake. It needs to be perfect the entire
Speaker:time. Because your whole yield figures, your business
Speaker:plan, your financing is based on this full
Speaker:production. So if halfway it fails and you have to restart,
Speaker:well, you're in trouble. Yeah, exactly. So when you first
Speaker:started growing strawberries, was it just, you know, like an
Speaker:R and D initiative? You didn't necessarily have a buyer, that's what I'm guessing.
Speaker:But was that the approach that you took? Like how did you get your
Speaker:first buyer and then at what quantity? And how stressful was
Speaker:that managing that first trial? I think you need
Speaker:to. I skipped that question on how did we go from. From leafy greens
Speaker:to strawberries in Europe? We got hit both with everywhere
Speaker:else with COVID but then also combined with a big energy crisis,
Speaker:which was not very positive for our business
Speaker:model and for our scaling plants in Belgium. It's a very particular
Speaker:market. So we were like, okay, what are we going to do?
Speaker:We have growing knowledge, we have technology knowledge, we know how to make it work
Speaker:in a very lean and mean approach. So we started doing a bit of trials,
Speaker:really left and right with different crops, going from ornamentals
Speaker:to also strawberries. And after these first trials,
Speaker:we were like, hey, wow, these drivers, they actually work. The
Speaker:quality was good, the results were repeatable. And
Speaker:then the next question popped up, okay, how are we going to turn this into
Speaker:a business? And we directly felt that, okay, it's not going to be Belgium, it's
Speaker:not going to be Europe. And why? Again, energy prices are very
Speaker:high and it's a complicated market.
Speaker:Again, we've got all the countries, all the languages, all the cultures. So it's not
Speaker:a unified market where you have big, big customers
Speaker:that are willing to pay a bit more premium for a high quality crop.
Speaker:And on top, the produce in Europe is already
Speaker:very good quality. As very professional growers, they know what you're doing.
Speaker:So it will be more difficult to find our space in that market.
Speaker:So what have we done? We, we just jumped on a plane to
Speaker:North America, American dream. And we basically did a bit
Speaker:of a roadshow. East coast, west coast, us, Canada.
Speaker:And we spoke with a bunch of people with
Speaker:distributors, with investors, with banks,
Speaker:and we just collected information, trying to understand, okay, what's going on there
Speaker:across the ocean. So when was this? Just for
Speaker:timeline's sake, when did you do this road? And by roadshow, did you just
Speaker:rent a car and go to a bunch of different conferences? Not
Speaker:even conferences. We just send out a bunch of emails to people that we thought
Speaker:were interesting. So we combined it with conferences. We also did the first
Speaker:time in their Afcon in Vegas. And that was. We
Speaker:basically took it from there. So that was
Speaker:a good two years ago almost.
Speaker:And it's during that trip that we met our
Speaker:first customer. So that was actually
Speaker:Eric Freshet, who is the owner of Taste of the north,
Speaker:and he has been building his company for the last
Speaker:30 years. And what he's doing is actually buying
Speaker:high quality produce from Quebec because They got amazing
Speaker:produce and amazing growers here. And he's exporting this
Speaker:to New England, to premium channels.
Speaker:And he was saying, hey guys, I've got a rather big demand for
Speaker:strawberries year round, but I don't have access
Speaker:to Quebec strawberries year round in the quality I want.
Speaker:And that's how we found a match. So we were like, okay, sure,
Speaker:let's come and set up a first production here in Quebec
Speaker:and then together with you, we will start exploring that market. So that was two
Speaker:years ago and now one year ago, we arrived here and we are producing
Speaker:Baris for him. Wow, what a
Speaker:story. So right now are you just producing for
Speaker:him? And he's called Taste of the North. So
Speaker:he, he's just a distributor, like a marketer or a distributor of
Speaker:fresh produce or what's his company? Yeah, I
Speaker:would say he's more a distributor because it just really
Speaker:saw that spot in the market in specific regions of putting high quality
Speaker:produce in this New England region. So
Speaker:he's very active on that. Just a little side story. So 30 years ago,
Speaker:he started as a strawberry salesman. He was just running around
Speaker:with the strawberries going door to door. And it's that mentality that he still has
Speaker:today with him. He's a great entrepreneur, just wants to also support
Speaker:us and together with us create this new market
Speaker:for him. But he has a son and his dream is, of course, that
Speaker:his son will take over the business. So we're creating this partnership also so that
Speaker:his son can continue supplying strawberries in the
Speaker:future. Okay, and so right now, so you're. Is he your
Speaker:primary customer right now or have you guys expanded since?
Speaker:Yeah, that's always, that's one of the challenges if you talk about primary food
Speaker:production, let's say chicken, egg especially, we
Speaker:want to create an impact with our company. So it's all about big volume,
Speaker:large volume production. So you need also the big customers.
Speaker:Yeah, big customers. They will not really buy from you
Speaker:unless you have big volumes. So you're always running around in
Speaker:circles. Yeah. Today our main customer, of course, is Taste of the Nordstrom.
Speaker:But as he is also a strategic partner, he's also helping us in doing
Speaker:trials with some other retailers. So we're doing some smaller productions for the other
Speaker:retailers to check in on the quality and then based on the
Speaker:feedback, start increasing the volumes. Yeah, okay, that
Speaker:makes sense. And that's actually really a beneficial partnership as well.
Speaker:So you're just selling the actual strawberries themselves?
Speaker:Because I, I actually thought you sell the, the plugs that
Speaker:People can use to grow their own. Do you. So do. Are you doing both?
Speaker:Yeah. So it all started in the end to meat with, with strawberries. That's what
Speaker:we know. It's a nice product, it's tasty, it looks good. And
Speaker:so far I'm not getting sick of eating strawberries. After eating seven years
Speaker:or six years of basil, was a bit more difficult to keep eating a basil
Speaker:leaf and going tasty. I think with a strawberry I can do it for a
Speaker:little bit longer. But when doing all these trials, we, we were like,
Speaker:yeah, pitching to investors and to our partners, hey, we can have a year on
Speaker:production, very low control, basically every step of the
Speaker:supply chain. And that's basically the pitch everyone is saying today in, in vertical farming
Speaker:and even in greenhouses. But there is one big part that
Speaker:no one is sharing with, with, with these people is the starting
Speaker:material. So as I said, the majority of growers, they don't start from
Speaker:seeds. So you start from a, a young plant. Yeah,
Speaker:plant. There's many names for it. These plants you buy from
Speaker:a nursery. And there has been a lot of
Speaker:challenges in North America, but even in Europe with the quality
Speaker:of these plants, regardless of whose fault it is, because I think that's not the
Speaker:point. It's mainly you as a grower. So either a
Speaker:large scale greenhouse grower or a vertical farm,
Speaker:you need to buy these plants from an external
Speaker:partner. And every time, every year, you need to pray,
Speaker:hey, is the quality going to be good enough? Are they going
Speaker:to be any pests or diseases in the plants that I buy? So really,
Speaker:you pray and you hope for the best. And especially if you're
Speaker:a smaller scale producer, unfortunately, often you end up
Speaker:with the second quality level or second grade
Speaker:quality. So that means that you're never sure that you're going to hit
Speaker:your yield figures. So we were like, hey, wait, that's a big
Speaker:opportunity. With our concept of growing in 100%
Speaker:controlled environment and with the trials we've done, we
Speaker:were able to produce high quality plants on demand
Speaker:at the right price. So
Speaker:we started doing trials last year when we arrived as well, and we already did
Speaker:a rather nice production of what they call motor plants. So these are
Speaker:plants that we sell to nurseries or to growers that then will multiply and
Speaker:propagate these plants. Right, exactly. So we do the strawberries
Speaker:and we do the plants just also to support the industry.
Speaker:It's not only about our production, it's also to see, look, the market
Speaker:is big enough, there are things that can be improved. And that is where we
Speaker:step in as well. Yeah. And just for a quick clarification, I've been calling them
Speaker:plugs. But that's what I mean. It's like the starter plants that other growers
Speaker:can then use. Yeah, I think that there is a really good
Speaker:market for that. So how many nurseries do you think you've been
Speaker:running in trials for these starter plants? Because I already am thinking
Speaker:of a few customers who would be interested in buying these
Speaker:starter plants, but they haven't been able to find a good source. So I'm
Speaker:just imagining that there would be a lot of demand for this.
Speaker:The demand is really, really big. What I'm currently
Speaker:observing here in Canada, but I'm sure it's rather
Speaker:similar in the US because it's also happening in Europe,
Speaker:is that we see that the nurseries are becoming bigger and bigger
Speaker:and either buying, indeed the small nurseries or small nurseries are
Speaker:just closing shop. So that's on one end because they're really
Speaker:trying to get the volume they crack. They're trying to get this quality process in
Speaker:place. The other hand, we also see that the big growers,
Speaker:like the really big growers, they're starting to do it themselves. So they're just
Speaker:vertically integrating to eliminate that risk of
Speaker:hoping that they get something good from a nursery.
Speaker:So we see now there is a handful of big nurseries, I think
Speaker:we can count them on one hand, that are trying to supply the markets, but
Speaker:also for them, the same challenge. You want to grow fast, you want to scale
Speaker:the business fast. How can you make sure that you keep delivering quality?
Speaker:Because you are a key supplier of these greenhouses.
Speaker:So you really need to make sure that you do a good job,
Speaker:take risk business. Yeah, exactly. And the skill set that you need to
Speaker:grow of it business versus grow a quality crop are
Speaker:two very different skill sets. So you can't tackle,
Speaker:you know, everything at once. What have you found to
Speaker:be some of your biggest challenges? So, you know, obviously with
Speaker:you, with you running this business and growing the
Speaker:plants, you're wearing a bunch of different hats. Like, you've got to focus on
Speaker:growing quality crops, but then also focus on getting more
Speaker:customers. Although you do have this good partnership, taste of the north.
Speaker:So I'm assuming that there's quite a bit of challenges that you're facing.
Speaker:Maybe if we could first talk about a challenge that you've faced with
Speaker:growing quality strawberry crops, I'm sure the audience would
Speaker:love to hear some of the. Some of the challenges that you've had and what
Speaker:you've done to address them. Okay, that's
Speaker:a, that's a tough question because there are so many challenges.
Speaker:So if I think if we have to focus on the first one,
Speaker:it's related to the growing. It all starts with
Speaker:focus. As we just said in the beginning,
Speaker:it's not that simple. It's not quick and dirty. You need to
Speaker:really be focused on the growing part because the entire business,
Speaker:your entire business model, your customers, is
Speaker:all linked to the quality you produce. If you
Speaker:formulate rubbish berries on the market, you're out. If
Speaker:you deliver bad plants to these nurseries or growers,
Speaker:you're out. I don't think there's even often a second chance. You just need to
Speaker:do it right. So that has been the motto
Speaker:since day one. And vertebrae is biology
Speaker:first, plant knowledge first, and everything else
Speaker:will follow. So I think that was the big realization
Speaker:on trying to get the priorities right. So when we talk about growing
Speaker:it, just let's keep track of
Speaker:what we're doing and focus on the quality. I
Speaker:think the challenge on the growing part
Speaker:is again, there is
Speaker:no real reference framework, there is no
Speaker:guide that tells you how to do strawberries, let's say,
Speaker:without daylight. So in a so called vertical farm,
Speaker:we can try and replicate a lot, but in the end, we need to do
Speaker:a lot of checks and balances in the entire process, both in
Speaker:operational costs and in investment costs, because it's all related.
Speaker:It's not only there, it goes beyond the growing.
Speaker:Because a perfect berry doesn't really exist because
Speaker:everyone keeps on saying it needs to be sweeter, it needs to be
Speaker:bigger, it needs to be smaller. That's not the end goal. The end goal is
Speaker:to sell berries and to see what is the berry consumers are
Speaker:willing to pay for because they can create beautiful berries. But
Speaker:they might have a child of life of only one day. Super sweet
Speaker:and super big and super soft. But where do you get. So it's finding
Speaker:that balance between, are we doing just research, are we being
Speaker:a commercial production company? Yeah. And it's something we need to
Speaker:permanently balance because our growers. So we've got still a small team in Belgium
Speaker:with an agronomist and they keep on doing research. And we also got an
Speaker:agronomist here in Canada who was responsible for the
Speaker:operations. And it's like, yeah, but we can do wild tests in this
Speaker:direction and we can try and do this. And it's like, yeah, but how is
Speaker:this going to translate in a commercial operation? And then the
Speaker:discussion quickly Becomes maybe it's less interesting.
Speaker:Yeah, this is actually, it's interesting that you bring this up because this is something
Speaker:that a lot of growers in the greenhouse space have been talking about
Speaker:as well. It's. You have to be like a good grower and, you
Speaker:know, grow your plant, but you also have to be equally so
Speaker:focused on the business and the commercial side of things. And whether or not
Speaker:if your operations are profitable, which is interesting because, you
Speaker:know, you call them, or we use the term grower, but
Speaker:there almost should be a better, a better term for it like
Speaker:greenhouse system operator or vertical farm system
Speaker:operator, because you've got to consider all these different factors.
Speaker:Okay, yeah, that's interesting. So what percentage of time do you find that you're
Speaker:spending on R&D versus
Speaker:commercial production? Because I'm sure you always have to do some
Speaker:R and D to test like new varieties and see if you can do things
Speaker:better or sweeter. But you're right, like too much of it and then you're
Speaker:not profitable. So what's that sweet spot?
Speaker:I think at the moment, if we just look at our headcount, so
Speaker:we've got eight employees, me, including
Speaker:here, Canada and Belgium, and one
Speaker:person is fully dedicated to
Speaker:R and D, experimental development and nothing but debt.
Speaker:And then another, I would say two people
Speaker:are roughly 50% also more on the research
Speaker:end. Why do I say more on the research end? I think
Speaker:they're more busy with collecting and analyzing data
Speaker:in the commercial growing setting and then exchanging with the
Speaker:team in Belgium. Just trying to see, okay, are the things that we are learning
Speaker:on the go, because that's a nice part of a vertical farm.
Speaker:Even in a commercial setting, we can always be doing a bit of research. We
Speaker:can say, let's say in one growing area, we give
Speaker:5% more lives or we change irrigation strategy in another zone.
Speaker:So this gives us a little bit of data points left and right while you
Speaker:print at a reduced risk. And then we just back
Speaker:into our models and see, okay, if we do this, the
Speaker:production cost goes down or the yield goes up or the shelf
Speaker:life gets impacted. So we get a lot of data without having to spend
Speaker:dedicated research in small rooms which are just
Speaker:very expensive to operate. Yeah, that's a smart way
Speaker:to overcome it. Are you using. Do you plan on using any
Speaker:AI or machine vision tools or anything like that
Speaker:to help with your R and D? I don't know if that's high level enough.
Speaker:No, Sure. I think it's actually one of the hot topics
Speaker:we see amongst A lot of growers. There is
Speaker:so many solutions out there. Hardware, bunch of
Speaker:sensors, software, need a lot of AI, a lot of things.
Speaker:It's very hard to decide what
Speaker:to go for because everyone is promising the world,
Speaker:the world and yield increases where you just go, wow,
Speaker:now we're gonna just become the king of strawberries. My
Speaker:personal opinion, and don't pin me on it,
Speaker:at the moment, we are not trying to eat too much of
Speaker:real AI. Oh, so you're more hands on. Yeah, we're
Speaker:more hands on. That's the growing aspect. I think there is still a lot of
Speaker:vertical farms and I don't want to generalize that are over
Speaker:complicating without realizing really themselves how to grow.
Speaker:Exactly. Are we able to produce a good berry? Are we
Speaker:able to produce a good plant? And if we can tick these
Speaker:boxes. All right, let's go and stretch it. And then
Speaker:AI and machine vision will come in because you're really going to
Speaker:look for what are these things that are not optimal. But I
Speaker:do not believe that at the moment the AI models or
Speaker:any sensor solutions will allow
Speaker:anyone to just grow a good barrier like that. Yeah,
Speaker:exactly. And you know, what do you do with all this data? And it's probably,
Speaker:you know, easy to lose track of all this data, especially if you're not organized
Speaker:or if you don't know what your good baseline metrics are for
Speaker:growing a good quality plan. I always find it funny to
Speaker:read press releases and I'm just being transparent. That's good. We want people to
Speaker:be transparent on this podcast where people are saying we. Are
Speaker:collecting thousands of data points per second,
Speaker:fit in our model and then they give examples. We are measuring temperature and
Speaker:humidity. Yeah, cool. Vertiber is
Speaker:also doing that. So take note, we are an amazing AI company. We're taking
Speaker:millions of data points, capturing temperature and humidity.
Speaker:That's what greenhouses have been doing for the last 20 years. So I find it
Speaker:always a bit funny to see this blown up out of proportions
Speaker:stories about real applications and
Speaker:real results due to AI. So we need to take
Speaker:it with a grain of salt because it feeds the whole
Speaker:hype that is still going on in our industry. There's more and
Speaker:more of a reality check. But again, it comes
Speaker:down to being a good grower. Start with the fundamentals. Would you say
Speaker:that the first person that you hired was an agronomist or
Speaker:one of the first. The first person we hired when we
Speaker:launched the company indeed was not per se agronomist, but was someone who
Speaker:clearly stated Hey, I want to become an agronomist. I want to do plant work
Speaker:so that someone whose family was in agriculture and indeed
Speaker:we saw you need someone who just loves being with the
Speaker:plants. Like not side hustle, just like, okay,
Speaker:you make sure it grows and you try to understand why it grows and that's
Speaker:your job. So yeah, sure. That was the first high with it.
Speaker:Oh, that's great. Yeah. And I think that's the
Speaker:smart move and I think that was the right move. And I don't think enough
Speaker:companies thought about the growing process when they got
Speaker:into, into this field. Okay, so now
Speaker:what about challenges? Like what's been the hardest part about growing the
Speaker:business itself? So, you know, scaling, finding investment,
Speaker:finding buyers. Like, what would you say has been the hardest
Speaker:part to grow the business on the, on the business side? Yeah, I
Speaker:think on the business side, speaking especially from the vertical
Speaker:farming perspective. So from, from our point of view
Speaker:is indeed finding the right financial
Speaker:partners to start scaling the business. So what is the major
Speaker:feedback we often get from, let's say funds that
Speaker:are willing to invest in greenhouses and that are willing to take
Speaker:what they would call an operational risk? They say like,
Speaker:yeah, okay, but vertical farming hasn't been proven
Speaker:yet at scale, so we're not going to touch it until we see a few
Speaker:years of bottom line profitability. Yeah.
Speaker:Which then, yeah, creates some, some barriers for us to start
Speaker:scaling because we know the figures are right. But we also know the challenge we
Speaker:need, we need volume, we need scale in order to
Speaker:get to that bottom line profitability. Exactly. Like house, a greenhouse
Speaker:also only works when it's big. A small greenhouse
Speaker:does not work. So the biggest challenge in
Speaker:that from the business end is then your overhead.
Speaker:That's actually the killer of any small operation.
Speaker:You need the base team. I'm not saying that you need 10 people, but even
Speaker:if you need like us, eight people to generate enough
Speaker:revenue, enough profits just to already pay these base
Speaker:salaries, you need some infrastructure. That's the
Speaker:point where we're now like, okay, good. We need to find
Speaker:investors that believe in our business
Speaker:model that are willing to take a bit of an infrastructure risk
Speaker:and then take it from there. So I think it's creating a track record
Speaker:now that I would call them that Greenhouse
Speaker:Funds wants to see, so we can start competing with
Speaker:typical greenhouses. And how big is your site right now?
Speaker:So at the moment we are what we call, we are at a pilot phase
Speaker:facility. So we currently have a building of
Speaker:20,000 square feet. Feet in which we have A couple of
Speaker:rooms to validate each step of our production in
Speaker:a more commercial environment. Yeah, 20,000ft square feet.
Speaker:That's good for your facility. So you mentioned before that one of your
Speaker:challenges as a grower was figuring out
Speaker:the right level of quality plant to grow
Speaker:that is also still commercially viable, is to just figure
Speaker:out what that plant is. So it's almost like on the selection stage,
Speaker:what have you done to figure out what
Speaker:that plan is? What have you done to solve that problem?
Speaker:And what has worked? What hasn't worked? I will not
Speaker:share all our secrets. Yeah, that's okay. We don't expect you to share all your
Speaker:secrets. No, I think there, the R and D
Speaker:part at small scale was important. So we've
Speaker:just done really what I like is random
Speaker:trials. Like we, we throw everything in the
Speaker:growing room so we try in parallel a bunch of
Speaker:different light settings, a bunch of different climate
Speaker:settings and then see what happens and just make
Speaker:mistakes. A lot of mistakes. I love it. Just makes mistakes,
Speaker:learn from it. And it doesn't mean you need to take that
Speaker:mistake in the entire 18 month crop cycle. That's
Speaker:perfect. If you see after one or two weeks, okay, this method of growing doesn't
Speaker:work. Okay, skip it, learn from it and just directly launch a new one.
Speaker:But the most important part is creating good reference points. And that
Speaker:we've always done by speaking with industry leaders. So
Speaker:these are the typical consultants, research
Speaker:centers, growers, breeders, and just have
Speaker:these checkpoints because it's very easy to tell yourself, this is a good plant,
Speaker:we good. But if you ask a grower to come in, they will just come
Speaker:in and tell you it's shit.
Speaker:That's how it goes. And then you have to listen and then you
Speaker:learn again because they say, hey, it needs to be. The plant needs to be
Speaker:a bit tougher. It needs to be prepared for a greenhouse environment. We need to
Speaker:see more flower initiation. The roots don't look as strong
Speaker:as they could maybe look left or right. So that's
Speaker:something we've done since day one. We speak with a bunch of people and
Speaker:that's the way growers do it, is we shouldn't be afraid to
Speaker:do, to open our doors a little bit again,
Speaker:sharing exactly how we do it, but at least share the results
Speaker:and then be open for that feedback. And that's how we progressed.
Speaker:Yeah, that's awesome. And like to get those relationships so
Speaker:you know, to get people to come in and give you feedback. Are these
Speaker:just potential buyers of the product or are they
Speaker:just, you're asking for help and they're coming in. So like they're giving
Speaker:their goodwill or how have you been able to get them to come
Speaker:in and give you that feedback? Yeah, I think now a lot is
Speaker:based on goodwill, which of course
Speaker:is triggered by the fact that we are transparent. Yeah, exactly. We
Speaker:don't gain something specifically out of it. We're not per se chasing a deal.
Speaker:It's more that we see, hey, there isn't a challenge and, or
Speaker:an opportunity in the market for the plants. There are problems, there
Speaker:is problems in the supply chain. The same for the strawberries.
Speaker:There is no consistency in strawberry quality, there is no consistency in
Speaker:strawberry yield. So unless we all stay in our
Speaker:little corner, it's going to take a long time to figure it out. So
Speaker:come and let's
Speaker:exchange on what we have done and growers do the same. Like
Speaker:I think most of the time when we just ask a grower, hey, can we
Speaker:come and have a chat? Can we, can we look, can we talk?
Speaker:Answer has always been yes. Yeah, well
Speaker:I, I think for, for growers they're probably, you know, also
Speaker:have been in the situation before where they needed someone to come and
Speaker:take a look at their plan and needed feedback. So it's really nice to
Speaker:be in this industry and hear about people, you know, giving their
Speaker:goodwill and helping others to succeed because it's important.
Speaker:You know, I did ask you before the call about the
Speaker:Weston Family foundation, the Homegrown Innovation Challenge.
Speaker:Are you working with them at all and providing
Speaker:starter plans for any of the systems that are in
Speaker:the Homegrown Innovation Challenge? No. So at the moment we
Speaker:are not participating anymore. So we got to the second round and
Speaker:unfortunately we didn't make it into the third round. Oh, that's
Speaker:life's cherry on the cake. But
Speaker:of course we were part of a team. We still have our own business plan
Speaker:so we keep moving ahead. I still love the concept. I think what
Speaker:they're doing is amazing for the market. It's giving a nice
Speaker:platform for also universities and research centers
Speaker:to go and explore and come up with a bit wilder and higher
Speaker:risk ideas than what we are doing. And in
Speaker:general, yes, our door is always open. We've got plenty of
Speaker:smaller vertical farms or research centers
Speaker:that reach out to us because they have even a bigger
Speaker:challenge. Because their volumes are so small, they grow at irregular
Speaker:times so nurseries can typically not help them. So that's where
Speaker:we find how them and just be there like, hey guys, whenever you need plants,
Speaker:reach out. Like we don't have a minimum order quantity at the moment for them.
Speaker:Depending on the timing, we can basically produce plants any
Speaker:time of the year. So that helps. Research centers because they do
Speaker:grow in climate chambers. Normally they only have the right
Speaker:quality if they are lucky once a year. So that limits the
Speaker:speed of their research. While again, if they want from us once a
Speaker:month, high quality and the same plant so their results will be
Speaker:more stable. That's something that they can do. Yeah. I'm just trying to
Speaker:think about how to get you know, a vertebrae set up here in
Speaker:Manitoba because it would be nice to have like that local
Speaker:supplier of strawberries. Have you ever considered like
Speaker:starting up farms in other
Speaker:asking for a friend in other areas of Canada?
Speaker:We get the question all. Yeah. And let's say that
Speaker:in, in our history of eight years now, we,
Speaker:we did sell some, some R D and small scale systems
Speaker:left and right. Hey, interesting. That's a recurring
Speaker:identity crisis that a lot of vertical farming companies have
Speaker:and a lot of people are always challenging everyone on that. Okay, are you now
Speaker:a tech company or are you a grower? Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker:First of all, I really believe that you can be both and there is no
Speaker:harm in that. If we look in a lot of new
Speaker:generation companies, like whether it's IT
Speaker:companies or car manufacturers, their end product is a certain
Speaker:service or a car and in order to provide that service
Speaker:or product, they need to reinvent the way they
Speaker:produce it and they cannot find it from a typical supplier.
Speaker:So they start inventing, reinventing, optimizing
Speaker:their own production system. And that's exactly what we are doing as well.
Speaker:It's not for the sport of reinventing the wheel.
Speaker:There is a lack of solutions that we need. So yes, in the background
Speaker:we are optimizing, changing certain things
Speaker:to allow us to grow better. We try to integrate as much as we can
Speaker:from the industry. So what is our long term vision? Our
Speaker:long term vision is indeed to provide
Speaker:growers or operators, whatever you want to call them, with
Speaker:a recipe book or with
Speaker:a manual that then comes with the whole solution to
Speaker:start growing themselves. And what we see is the biggest
Speaker:challenge there is. Again, you need scale. I've
Speaker:tried many times to make the
Speaker:figures work for small scale farms.
Speaker:I'm not capable of getting that to work. So what we want to do
Speaker:is create a strong showcase at scale and
Speaker:we will try not to get distracted. Once we've done this for a few
Speaker:years, we will happily copy paste
Speaker:our model in other regions in the world where it makes sense.
Speaker:But don't Forget we're talking about food. It
Speaker:needs to be affordable, reach the big markets.
Speaker:So everything needs, everything needs to work. It's a tough market,
Speaker:it's very fun, it's very challenging. But
Speaker:I've seen a lot of dreams and a lot of visions even from our side
Speaker:that realistically are just very tough to make work
Speaker:on the long term. Yeah. And just on the note of you saying
Speaker:the identity crisis of people in this space. Are you
Speaker:a tech company versus a growing company? I think the where people
Speaker:have gone wrong in the past is they've maybe gone into this space
Speaker:for the thrill, the sport of inventing and creating like new tech and
Speaker:new systems without focusing as much on the growing. But I do agree with you
Speaker:that you can do both as long as you prioritize the
Speaker:growing side of things first. I would say growing first
Speaker:and tied, you know, hand in hand with profitability and unit
Speaker:economics and then tech development. Because yeah, again, tech's not going to be
Speaker:helpful if it's way too expensive for anyone's facilities.
Speaker:So this is kind of the last question I have for you, but
Speaker:what is your proudest moment as a grower? Because I know, you know, you're
Speaker:growing the business as well, but as you growing plants in the system
Speaker:with Vera Berry, what has been your proudest moment? I think my
Speaker:proudest moment so far is,
Speaker:I would say, the first harvest we've done here in Canada.
Speaker:Oh, when was that? So that was in March
Speaker:because yeah, we, we arrived here with, with, with nothing. So we
Speaker:basically I moved here with my wife and always
Speaker:tell us a little joke. I joke, it's just a story. I, I, I moved
Speaker:here with my wife. I took my two cats and four suitcases. Of course, with
Speaker:the support and the backing of our team in Belgium and our investors. But
Speaker:we arrived in the middle of nowhere and everyone told us, you guys are not
Speaker:going to succeed. You cannot just do it like that. It's, it's, you need way
Speaker:more time. I said, like a good Belgian, hold my beer.
Speaker:And we arrived here mid September, 1st of
Speaker:October. We got the key of the building and end of October
Speaker:we started production. Because then we started with small plants. So we built the first
Speaker:small room and in parallel we built the bigger room. So it was just the
Speaker:moment the plants were in. The time started ticking
Speaker:and then by March we had a bigger room up and running and we
Speaker:had strawberries. And then seeing these berries in the snow.
Speaker:Yeah. And just getting that box and delivering that to
Speaker:the customer, we were like, okay, this is going to be the beginning
Speaker:of what we really believe is going to be a fun story. It's
Speaker:not going to be easy, but having them and having tasty berries
Speaker:just a few months after our arrival, that was. That was a cool
Speaker:moment. Yeah. I think always his first deliveries. This is just a moment where, as
Speaker:a team, you look like, okay, this is gonna work.
Speaker:Yeah, we can do this. Yeah. That's such a good. A good story.
Speaker:Oliver and I can. I can probably relate to
Speaker:probably the look on the customer's faces that they had when you gave them
Speaker:fresh strawberries in the snow, because it's a. It hasn't been
Speaker:possible for a lot of people in a lot of different ways. Well, thank
Speaker:you for coming on and for sharing your story
Speaker:with us. I think that there's a lot of good takeaways
Speaker:from your story. Is there any, you know, good piece of advice that you
Speaker:would want to give to a new grower in this space? What.
Speaker:What advice would you give to them? I think the most important advice is
Speaker:really work on that lean and mean mindset.
Speaker:Yeah. And then pull that mindset into becoming a good
Speaker:grower, of finding a good, good grower. And do not lie to
Speaker:yourself. The. The plants will tell the truth. You cannot hack
Speaker:it. Like, make sure you get a good crop, whether it's a lettuce
Speaker:or herb or a strawberry. Start with that.
Speaker:Because, again, technology will not solve it. Yeah. It will improve it.
Speaker:But make sure that you get these checkpoints and just be
Speaker:super honest towards yourself. And then, of course, don't forget,
Speaker:you are a grower. You need a mindset. Yeah. You're going to get dirty
Speaker:hands. You need to be willing to do that. It's tough. Do these
Speaker:checks, and if you can tick all these boxes, really keep
Speaker:on going. The market is there. There's opportunities,
Speaker:and it's just cool to grow or
Speaker:produce. Produce. It's nice to have it as an end result.
Speaker:It makes people happy. Yeah. It's a very meaningful line of
Speaker:work, for sure. Food is medicine. Okay, well. Yeah. Well,
Speaker:thank you again for your time. Thank you for coming on the show. I
Speaker:definitely know our path will cross again. And I'll have a lot of
Speaker:questions for Verd Berry and potentially customers
Speaker:in the future. We'll see. But, yes, thank you for your time.
Speaker:And that's a wrap. All right, thank you, Trina.
Speaker:I hope you enjoyed this episode of Greenhouse Success Stories, hosted by Trina
Speaker:Semenchek. Thanks to our guests. Make this all possible. Special
Speaker:thanks to our title sponsor, Arnois Greenhouse. To Read the full shownotes for each
Speaker:episode, which includes an episode summary, key takeaways
Speaker:and guest resources mentioned, please visit
Speaker:greenhousesuccess.com.
