In Part 2 of this powerful three-part series, we continue the firsthand account from Shira Lawrence and Jet’aime McKinney as they navigate an increasingly complex and high-stakes hospital experience during a birth in Georgia.

What begins as a moment of hope—with a provider finally listening—quickly shifts into a deeper examination of power, bias, and control within the hospital system.

This episode captures the tension between advocacy and authority, and what it means to support a laboring mother while systems actively resist that support.

What You’ll Hear in This Episode

1. A rare moment of alignment with a provider who listens—and why it mattered
2. The role of the anesthesiologist in shifting the trajectory of care
3. How doulas are perceived, dismissed, and sometimes erased in clinical spaces
4. The critical importance of advocacy when a client cannot advocate for themselves
5. The emotional and psychological labor of doulas during prolonged, high-pressure situations
6. Hospital policies vs. practice: how “rules” are inconsistently applied
7. The escalation from support to surveillance—and the introduction of hospital security
8. The moment advocacy becomes risk—and the fear that enters the room

Key Themes & Takeaways

1. Advocacy vs. Authority

Even when care is medically appropriate, access can be delayed or denied based on provider bias or resistance.

2. The Doula’s Role Is Not Optional—It’s Essential

This episode reinforces why families choose doulas: for advocacy, clarity, and grounded support in moments where systems become overwhelming.

3. Bias in Real Time

Listeners will hear how bias shows up not just in decisions—but in tone, access, communication, and escalation.

4. Emotional Labor of Birth Workers

Beyond physical support, doulas are navigating systems, protecting clients, and managing their own safety simultaneously.

5. Systems Under Pressure Reveal Truth

Moments of stress expose how institutions operate—and who they prioritize.

Where We Leave Off

This episode ends in the middle of an intense and unfolding situation:

1. The client is in active labor without pain management
2. Hospital dynamics have escalated
3. Security has entered the room
4. The doulas are being confronted and pressured to leave

Part 3 will take you into the final removal, the aftermath, and the lasting psychological impact of this experience—along with what ultimately happened to mom and baby.

Content Note

This episode contains descriptions of medical stress, confrontation, and systemic challenges within birth settings. Listener discretion is advised.

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Join the Conversation

What stood out to you in this episode?

Have you experienced or witnessed similar dynamics in birth spaces?

Drop your thoughts in the comments—we want to hear from you.

2 Hours, 2 Doulas, a Hotel & an Airbnb: The Story Behind the Headlines

Part 2

Shira Lawrence

And let me, let me just tell you, this was black excellence. Degrees on degrees on degrees in action, okay, the good feels, all right. So inter stage right? Anesthesiologist, black, middle aged guy. He's got that caring concern, dad, whatever you can have, whatever you like type.

Speaker 3

He comes in and he, you know, at first he's like, what we doing? What you want to do? He asked some clarification questions between

Shira Lawrence

he and the provider. We did another ultrasound to confirm placement of placenta. Placenta is in a great place. Baby's looking beautiful. He's asking about her numbers. Numbers are great. We there is no medical need to do anything but give this lady the epidural. So he says to me, he's like, Hey, why she don't want to go home back Well, first he said, Well, let me get you ready for C section. That's when he came in there and said. I was like, hold up, partner. Like I didn't say like that, but I said they're calling you in here today to talk about epidural. We're not quite there yet. Mom's not ready to cross that bridge. You want to stay right here? He said, Okay, I'm picking up what you're putting down. I said, Thank you for. Listening the first time where someone actually took the time to hear a voice from someone hired by and who has built rapport with the provider, everyone else, when my voice, when I would speak, to say anything, whether it's to give context information or whatever it was, as if they didn't hear me, as if I was a invisible person speaking in the room, right?

Ravae Sinclair

Because you weren't saying what they wanted you to

Denise Bolds

capitulate. You did not exactly.

Jet'aime McKinney

I also want to make this point, I'm sorry, just so people understand, because there's been a lot of like, well, why wasn't partner back there with with her? I just want to make this note, in triage, you were only allowed to have one person.

Denise Bolds

I don't know if it's like that only in Georgia or everybody.

Jet'aime McKinney

Oh, yes, you are only allowed to have one support person in triage. That can change when you get admitted into the hospital and go into a labor and delivery room. My mom chose specifically, knowing what the potential of presentation was, that she wanted her doulas to be back there with her, and it made her partner. It did not mean that her partner was not present in the facility at all. It just meant that while she knew she only had access to one person at that time, that she was choosing the people who she knew could advocate for her, could support her in the way that she needed. I just want to make that clear,

Ravae Sinclair

yeah, and this, this is an important point, because while our partners are often great in lots of things, part of the reason why we get hired as doulas is people know they their person. They know their person is not they may be a rule follower, they may not want to buck up. They don't like conflict. And this was a hard thing you all were going in to do. You all, having had lots of births, you presented with some, a certain, a specific, very specific skill set, right? And she was relying on that skill set at this time, getting her to admission and getting her the pain management that she walked into the hospital, which is her primary concern at that time, to get she needed you, you your specific skill set. So it makes sense that her partner doesn't it was not there, and it doesn't mean that they're not loving, not that they're right exactly, not that they're not on speaker phone or FaceTime or getting updates from us. They are concerned as well, and they also have chosen that you your is going to step in and do this, this leveraging at this moment,

Denise Bolds

absolutely, and it also speaks to the mindset, which is another podcast I'm sure Ravae And I will produce and do is that these doula dads, you're coming in with a different mindset as a doula, and not the partner or the spouse. Psychologically, it's very hard to separate those rules and unblur them and be objective and be clear and be focused and not have your heart in that in the relationship sense. So being chosen to be the doula in this situation you were coming in to do that task with no emotional tie that can make your work and make what you say more sensitive, you know, you could have been triggered faster if this was a person, you know, it's a different paradigm than it is. And saying, oh, you know, my husband is going to be my doula. He's already probably your spouse, your brother, and the father of this child, psychologically, it's very hard to unrest

Jet'aime McKinney

separate those rooms. Absolutely

Denise Bolds

come into a situation like what you two have been doing now. I'm listening to you guys talk. You guys have been at this now for about a couple hours here between the hotel wasn't ready, then you had to go to the next one. You guys have been at this for a while.

Ravae Sinclair

Absolutely, see, people really don't get you been on call, waiting on call for two weeks, not getting totally great sleep, because we're ready for the we're ready for the call. They have symptoms all along the way. We checking in, and it's not just you figuring out how to get yourself there Shira or yourself to Tim you. It's you trying to figure out how to nail it for both of you, your families, your other clients.

Jet'aime McKinney

We're that's, yeah, that's our other clients. We're not only on call for her, we have other clients.

Denise Bolds

You talked her in that two hour drive to get her closer to the city. On doing that, you right?

Ravae Sinclair

You're holding space. And not to mention, and not only are you all doing that, the dad is also doing that. Who he doesn't do this for a living. He is not trained to do this, right? He holding space. He's listening to all her symptoms,

Denise Bolds

reassuring her thriving, trying to our the other child, oh, my God,

Ravae Sinclair

it's a two hour plus drive ahead of him, and there's another child. And guess what? The childcare, whatever was supposed to right, getting up this plan, it already started to fall unravel, right? So it was tenuous with her care providers, tenuous with her community of support. And she. Is going into a city that she doesn't live in. Doesn't know he's doing this too, and he's supposed to be her provider, her protector, right? He's supposed to be the leader. And sometimes it's hard to do all where all of those hats, but they hired the two of you to guide. And so yes, so he decided to get let you all step up into the space to get to through this hurdle, which is to get her admitted, right, get her the care that she stepped in there needing, primarily, which was pain relief, exactly, alright. So you got the OB, Shera, okay, pick it back up. You got the OB

Denise Bolds

and the anesthesiologist, black

Ravae Sinclair

anesthesiologist, and the black anesthesiologist, and he's picking up what you putting down,

Shira Lawrence

yes, and he's in, he's in the room just kind of getting a feel for what's happening. We also have in the room an IV team, er team. There's, like, there's a lot of people in here. Everybody's checking arms. Everybody's got an arm looking feeling. They've got machines looking at arms. It's a whole facade. But everyone in there was a part of the superpower. I do want to say that they were all black excellence. It was degrees on degrees. It was great vibes. So it didn't feel chaotic, right? So we're all chit chatting, trying to figure out, you know, what's the best? Okay, I got one. I think I got one. We're trying this one. We're trying that one. She's still working through contractions. When she starts to show that the contraction is building, everyone steps back and everybody gets quiet. It's a beautiful dance. This is what it's supposed to be. That's alright, baby, yes. Oh, it just that was it. So then, every now and then the nurse would pop in, or the provider would pop in and say, is the epidural in yet? And the anesthesiologist would say, well, we're not quite there yet. And I'm not going to place it in this tiny, little room. We're going to get her into a room and get her.

Jet'aime McKinney

That was a whole dynamic there too. I'm so sorry I was on FaceTime this whole time as well. I remember, I think his goal was to never get her to labor and delivery, because he never wanted her to. So I remember that dynamic says, I won't place an epidural in triage. Okay, so I will not place the epidural till I get to labor and delivery.

Ravae Sinclair

He was upsetting them. In order to get a room, they have to formally hit the button and admit her. Yes, I see.

Shira Lawrence

What this provider's hopes were is that anesthesiologist will come in and have his back and be like, tell her, we can't do that. Tell her we get and he was like, tell me again, where numbers are and where's this? Where's that? I think we good. Let's go ahead and get her to a room. You could literally see the smoke come out of this older white gentleman's head when the the black squad over here is like dining in power.

Ravae Sinclair

Okay, let's for the people who don't understand we talked about this power and control dynamic, this levels within the medical profession, the nurses and the docs, well, the anesthesiologist trumps them all.

Denise Bolds

Just controls the room.

Ravae Sinclair

Is the power, okay? And so this fuming OB could not open his mouth, and after

Jet'aime McKinney

that, that's when we really saw things. So the waiting room is, like, you just walk out into the hallway and you're in the hallway of where the desk is, where triage is. There's a door to get into triage, but, like, there's a hallway where you can see where the nurses and everything are. And so there was a point where I was on FaceTime and I was hearing this, and I could hear like he is upset that the anesthesiologist is saying, like everything pans out, she can get epidural if she wants it, but I won't do it in here. You got to admit her and put her in another room so I can do it. And I remember walking out into the hallway and hearing the provider. He was so angry. I don't know who he was on the phone with, but he was on the phone talking. I phoned a friend, phone a buddy. I don't know what he was doing, but he was out there. He was calling. He was like, he was calling everybody. He was on the phone up in there, calling somebody. He was like, giving them the whole rundown and the whole story and again, never a good day, yeah, yeah. At the end of the day, he should have just said, I don't feel comfortable doing this like, this is not what I want to do. I don't feel comfortable because, had he had that conversation with this mom, like, think they're they would have been able to have a conversation. And maybe she would have been like, well, I don't feel safe if you don't feel comfortable, like, you know, and then she could have made an informed decision. Right at this point, there is no there's none of that happening because she's just in fight or flight, because she's like, I want pain management, and you're denying me treatment, so I don't even have the capacity to make an informed decision, right? You know she goes, except for I'm just not consenting, because I know that's not

Denise Bolds

what I want, right, right? Try to stabilize

Jet'aime McKinney

her so Right, right? But you could hear this provider, like, I could hear him in the hallway just going on and off, and he was just sighing and hanging up the phone and calling somebody else, like he was very much, like, I can't believe I'm getting like,

Denise Bolds

probably called the White House, but we'll never know somebody who knows.

Ravae Sinclair

So let's talk about this, because this is actually very stressful for a doula.

Denise Bolds

You were witnessing all of this. You're right in the middle of. Love it.

Ravae Sinclair

And this is the person who is responsible professionally to do the thing that might have to happen, or catch her baby, right? Catch her baby, or lead the performance of the C section. And this is, like, very stressful, I'm sure that anesthesiologists gave some solace, right? Like some like that, that was great. And then right in the middle of that is this other dynamic happening outside the hospital room, which is obviously unprofessional, and it speaks to this power and control dynamic. I also want to just say, I know you're talking about, you know, all the superpowers united, but there is something, because somebody's going to listen to this and be like, Oh, they're racist, okay, not possible, right?

Denise Bolds

We're ethnocentric. We can't be racist.

Ravae Sinclair

Definition together, right? What we got was, you all, there's the lack of bias there, like, immediately, there's no one afraid to touch her skin. There's no one touching her because she's black, or her decisions or her choices, right? Not coming in there with some loaded, predetermined feelings or emotions about her. They're like, we have a patient. She's presenting these numbers. This is within my range professionally. I would do this for anybody, whether they were registered, what, no, right, whatever, and they're just doing their job, but they're coming in without that barrier of bias, and that makes the care so different, even in this exact same moment, your one, one provider is lacking the bias, and the other is leading, letting it

Denise Bolds

lead Absolutely. I just want to bring up something here, because what we all know, all of all of us here on this, on this podcast right now, we've been doing this for a hot minute, and we all know from listening to the testimony, the story, the storyline here with these two women were able to do all this time, even though all of this has happened, they will still blame the doula. Why didn't you bring her in sooner or why? Why did you do this? They're going to blame, they're they're going to, they're going to put the blame on the doulas, and once again, it comes back to that power like you were talking about that chain at the bottom. So it must be the doulas fault why this mom couldn't come in sooner? It must be the doulas fault that this mom has this in her ear, that she wants this. The doulas must have contrived and told her these things. Meanwhile, it's the doctor from her maternity desert that started this whole problem in the front stamp. Yeah. Let's talk about the domino effect.

Ravae Sinclair

Domino effect, right? And here doesn't even sound like anything went wrong. So the fact that there's some blame, meaning meaning the baby is true too. The family's doing well. The mother

Denise Bolds

has percolating. Just great, fine.

Ravae Sinclair

So even to go into defense mode is really interesting. Because for you all doing it's telling your story, none of us would even know that any of this happened, right? And so I think some of this is in defense. It sounds like there's some messiness with the family as well, but, but I Okay, so you guys got us to the point where we see the power and control dynamic. Because I'm like, how did you get admitted if there was all this resistance? And so what we have is anesthesiologist saying, Hey, I'm looking at these numbers. This person is asking for an epidural. Hey, I have no reason to not give, so I'm giving, and that is the right thing to do. And so now you're in this dichotomy where you've got black magic happening inside this hospital room, and then you also have fuming phones being slammed outside of that room. Okay, so in the room, alright. Doc's got you in the room. The anesthesia has you in the bigger room. Their arms are out. They're trying to find all the things. Get place, IV, okay, tell it, pick it up from there.

Shira Lawrence

So all that's happening still in triage, the anesthesiologist has made the decision that I won't place the epidural. Once we find the IV, we have to go over to labor and delivery for them to place it. So I want to just point out and shout out, not just the anesthesiologist, the whole squad that was in there working on her, yes, where they were, they were in alignment, and without getting them in any trouble, they were guide, helping give us guidance on, hey, this is how this should go. This is what you need to say. Okay, just listen to me. I got it. Okay, so it's for the first time. Mom is a human. For the first time we are heard. For the first time we are healed and and it was even moments where one of the people over there working on her arm would say, Look at me. This. I know this is a heart contraction. But, girl, you are doing this. You are doing so great. And I wasn't expecting that they had one job to come find an IV, but they came in and they came with care and compassion, and they humanized her for the first time. And as a doula, actually, all I'm doing at this point is, you know, I'm actually getting to be a doula for a second, and not a referee. Wow. So it was good. And then we get moved over. So once the IV is placed, we get moved over to the room. Okay? So now we're in the bigger room. IB is placed, and we meet our next nurse, who, again, superpower. Shout out to sister. She was like, alright, what is happening? What you what's going to be okay? So she did her first check. When she does. Her cervical check, because at this point it's been about three or four hours. So she's like, You know what? We why you sound a little

Jet'aime McKinney

different four hours. I remember. I remember her specifically. She said it's been four hours since your first cervical check. Like, let's check again, because you're sounding different. Like, that's exactly.

Shira Lawrence

Has now joined me in the room and one of the children, because

Jet'aime McKinney

they once we got to the labor and delivery room, we could come

Speaker 2

over, right? You can bring people in. Hey, dad

Shira Lawrence

is still resting. He just gotten off, like, a 15 hour overnight shift, so we were cool with him resting until we got some what's going on and we'll come get you. We didn't bother him. He's resting. So myself, jatim and a child are in the room now. Great vibes. This new nurse is like, give me the tea. Alright? She does the cervical check. Her fingers barely go in, y'all so we like,

Jet'aime McKinney

last time the thing that the hand went up far, you know, again, you see hundreds of cervical checks. Oh, yeah. And as soon as her hand went in, her eyes were very wide, like this, like, she was like, Please, go get another nurse. Somebody call another nurse. Like, quickly, somebody get another nurse. She's like, I don't know what I'm feeling. Yeah, now also I don't did she know that the baby was? She knew that the baby was she

Shira Lawrence

did. I don't think she knew mine. I

Jet'aime McKinney

know she did,

Shira Lawrence

because the other nurse that gave report, the report was very much. So, like this, we wanted to listen to this, but mom wouldn't let us do it. We wanted to do this, but mama wouldn't let us do like, her aggression, right there? Yeah, I don't really know how baby is right now, because mom couldn't sit still. This is how she's giving bedtime report. We don't really know professional. And I'm looking at her, like, go on ahead out because you and your little friend. My mind, I'm being very quiet, but I'm like, that's not how reports should go. There should be valuable information. That's this. Nurse was not given any valuable information. She had to put it together alongside us, and we were okay, transferring

Denise Bolds

the bias and transferring her feelings onto the next person.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, but tell me why there was a it was a shift change. Because why did the nurse change? We went from, got it, okay, okay, just it's bringing everybody along.

Jet'aime McKinney

Okay, that she thought this, what they told her was that this was a C section. Mom, like this mom was coming over. It was a C section. Mom, because when she found out that this mom, she was like, Wait, we're doing a vaginal birth. And because she said they just told me outside that this is a C section, right? But she put her hands in there. Her eyes got big. She asked for another nurse because she did not understand what she was feeling. And she kind of was just like, Oh my God. I mean, she was like, I'm, you're, you're definitely eight or more. She was like, but like, I don't know what this is. What is this? And so then that's when Go ahead. So then I started to give her a little bit of comfort.

Shira Lawrence

Remember, I have lots of training in my background. I said, hey, could it be possible that you feel a scrotum? Maybe it kind of feels like I'm giving her some information. Because, although I'm not in my this hospital, but I do, I have that in my background. So I'm like, this could this positive? She was like, you know, it could be that. And I'm like, It's okay. I said we were aware of that. That's she was like, Okay, let me go and get I'm gonna get somebody check behind me, just in case, see what they want to call her. Because I'm feeling like 100% eight, nine. What?

Jet'aime McKinney

0189, 100 zero, nice, nice.

Shira Lawrence

Okay, she gets the other nurse to come in and help. Now this nurse is not a part of the team. She nothing memorable happened there except she did her little check, okay? She just confirmed

Jet'aime McKinney

what the first nurse said. They had the same check, okay?

Shira Lawrence

And then we had a pow wow. Nurse is like, Alright, let's talk. Let's talk us. Let's all talk. What we doing here? They telling me C section, what y'all want to do. So we let mom tell her, I want to, if I can, if my baby's good and I'm good, I

Jet'aime McKinney

want to labor on. And also, you have to think about her check she just got. Can you imagine the confidence mama just got when she heard that? She said to herself, she was like, she was so proud. She was

Ravae Sinclair

like, oh yeah.

Jet'aime McKinney

Boosted eight, nine, 100% he faced ready to have that baby. Now, my body is doing it. And she was so proud. Because she also was like, I if this baby is rich, I don't know if I could do it right, and so we still don't have no pain management. But she's also like, boost it because, no, the epidural still hasn't been placed.

Denise Bolds

Still didn't give her pain management three hours later and

Jet'aime McKinney

four hours later at this point. So we got admitted to labor and delivery. But remember that, and we don't have a bolus yet. We just got the IV placement. Another part of it is that you have to get a bolus of fluids before anesthesia is called. So they did not move us to labor and delivery with the bolus done, they just got the IV poured in. That's it. Okay. So now the nurse is coming in and is saying, Alright, they have an order for a bolus of fluids. Oh, but we've got to start that. So this check was done without any pain management at all. I thought, you know, there's no epidural still.

Shira Lawrence

Oh, epidural doesn't happen until we're kicked out. Let's right.

Denise Bolds

Oh, you know, my God, this is ours. This keeps going.

Shira Lawrence

Oh, yes, so, so okay at. This point they start the bolus. But I'm looking, you know, we were watching all the things. Well, remember, wait,

Jet'aime McKinney

Shera, they didn't start the bolus yet. Remember, I see you had to come back in the room because here's a port, here's a part. And I didn't mean to cut you off, Shira, I just remembered. So ICU came back in the room because when she tries to go ahead and get the hip lock and attach the bolus, she starts to push and is resistant. She can't push. You know, when they do saline to just clear the line before the bolus starts. She's like, Why isn't it going through? We don't understand. Is that where you were getting to Shira? Okay, go Yeah, no, go ahead. And so now we recognize that she can't get the fluids because the IV is bad. She's like, I don't know if the vein blew, if the catheter moved in there, I don't know. And she was like, they had such a hard time over there sticking you. I don't want to try to stick you. I'm just going to go ahead and call the ER department. So she calls the ER department to come upstairs so that they can take out that one. Well, when they come upstairs and they get ready to take it out, they recognize that, Hmm, why is this? Like, catheter bent like this doesn't make any sense, right? As if there was that like that seems on purpose, right? And they get that out and start looking for, like, other other veins. So there's still no and this was the original, like, because they remember, they kept saying she had to have two ports, like two hep blocks and two ports. So this the one that they were talking about that was been, was like the original, original, not the one that the anesthesiologist came to get, get, because two and so they they come, and they come into the room first, and they have to, they were great. They were black too, but they were great. They got it quick. I was like, we should have called them when we was over in triage. I mean,

Denise Bolds

they were fast. Stayed in emergency room and just had her babies.

Ravae Sinclair

Oh, I'm sorry, did you need two headlocks?

Speaker 3

Because that's surgery. That's part of

Denise Bolds

the thing. That's their protocol. Yes, their protocol. Okay, well, because

Shira Lawrence

she's such a hard stick, we want to be ready in case one goes out,

Denise Bolds

put the IV in the mom's foot, because they can't get it. They do it on the foot. Let's go. We got a vein. Let's go, yeah, absolutely, got it.

Jet'aime McKinney

Okay. Okay, go ahead, pick up Shira. I just wanted to, no,

Shira Lawrence

you're fine. Okay. So now we have IV placed. Now the nurse keeps coming in, and you can see her face is just kind of confused. She said, Mom, I need you to say out of your mouth in your own words, what you want to happen next. And so mom tells her, I want to labor on on today. So she's like, thank you. I'm sorry I'm having to do y'all like this, but it's a lot going on out there, and I'm trying to make sure I'm giving accurate information, and I'm telling them that it's coming from you. And we were like, okay, great, thank you. So we get the everything going. We lower the lights. They're done with the things. We lower the lights. We get the mood right. We turn a little music on. Jatin Labor's on, Mom, I'm kind of dozing on the couch like, Lord, this is a roller coaster ride. Help us? Then the lights come on in the room. Now, everything's calm. Remember, we got good vibes of the nurse, no contention. The lights pop on and we're told Jatin the

Jet'aime McKinney

public safety officers. It's two public safety officers. They turn the lights on out of nowhere and say, Hey, we are in. We are coming inside to because we've been told there's a child on the premises, we need to remove a child from this room. And we were like, and I remember the nurse came in with them. She kind of like, came in ahead of them, and she came in and walked in and looked at us like, like, some this is weird. I don't know what's going on. And she said, I asked them if I was getting arrested or something kind of like trying to make it jokey joke or whatever. And we were kind of, we were very thrown off. And it was, they were like, we're here to remove a child off the premises. Visitation policy after 8pm like, there's all these things. And we were like, okay, but they didn't have to send public safety in. All they had to do was come and say something let us know that to be removed from the room. They let, they let the child come in. The child has been sleep on the sofa, literally, honestly, like, forgot the child was there. And they were like, has to come. We have to remove. And we were like, well, we'll remove the child. Like, we guys too, we're sorry. Like, these rules are broken and it's after hours now. Like, no problem. Can you give us an opportunity to make arrangements so that that can take place? And they were like, okay, that's fine. So they kind of like, left us alone, but the nurse was still in the room, even after they walked out. And I think all three of us looked at each other like, I think that's when me and Shira started to understand, like, okay, something is going on. Because, remember, we have not seen doctor since we left over there. Our last we know of him is he was over there angry at the world because she didn't got admitted into labor and

Denise Bolds

delivery. Passive aggression.

Jet'aime McKinney

Ravae Sinclair

Oh, they kicked them in from down, yeah.

Jet'aime McKinney

So now they come in and they meet in. The doctor speaks first. He says, I need everybody out of the room. And we were like, well, why? And he was like, I need everybody to get out. You're getting put out. You everybody has to leave the room right now. I need her in here by herself. Everybody has to get out of the room. And we were kind of like, Wait, like, wait, what? What's going on? And Mom is asking why? We're asking why. Immediately after we keep asking why, the doctor gets upset. He's like, and he just kind of like, storms out, so their public safety officers take over, and they say that it is visitation policy and we can only have so many people in here. And we were like, well, isn't the visitation because this is also not my first time as a doula, neither of our first times at Pete, my Henry as a doula. So we're just like, we know what the visitation policy is. And right before I came in here, y'all asked me for the little certification, like, car to come back. Like, why would y'all have let us in here to stay if all of a sudden, like, we're against visitation policy? Like, none of it is making sense. So at this point,

Ravae Sinclair

who's actually in the room? So we have the laboring person, the two of you. Is dad in the room. He's not in the room. It's just the three of you all

Jet'aime McKinney

and and said child, because she had, she hadn't left yet, we asked them for time so that we can make arrangements to get said child out of the room. And by arrangement,

Shira Lawrence

one of us was going to leave, so we were going to stabilize, get things rock and roll, and one of us was going to be out of there. But at this point, it's still wild and crazy. We can't leave, right? We need to get this together really,

Denise Bolds

get the IV properly, right?

Ravae Sinclair

So she's also an epidural. Got it.

Jet'aime McKinney

We still have not gotten the epidural at this point, right? Exactly. We have the pole in the bathroom with her, and it's still just running the fluids because they wanted her to get down at least half the bag, and it was just taking some time right before they would call anesthesia.

Denise Bolds

So Doctor storms out after making Doctor

Jet'aime McKinney

storms out because he's, I guess, frustrated. With the fact that we're asking why we have to leave. So he storms out. I guess, to get the big bigger, he

Ravae Sinclair

makes a request that he can't explain, right? He's going to be mine. Got it. He clearly can't handle any of this.

Shira Lawrence

He's not a good guy. I want to add, there was another time in triage, I forgot about this, where the doctor came in, when I was in there and said, I need to speak with her and her husband alone. And I'm like, is there is this something going on? Because in my mind, I'm like, well, once she doesn't have a husband, okay, so that makes a difference, if you're trying to make this about legal things. So what's the grant? I said, he's actually with the child, so it's me who's in here right now. I'm so sorry, but if you have something

Jet'aime McKinney

to discuss with her, we can call him up.

Shira Lawrence

I asked her. I said, Do you want me to leave? What would you like to have? She said, No, I need for you to remain in the room. He got mad and stormed out again. He was trying to isolate her without us, he says, so that he know that she wasn't being manipulated, but we know it's because he wanted to strong arm her into

Ravae Sinclair

the manipulation. Yeah.

Shira Lawrence

So now it's, now it's everyone has to leave the room, and I brought my squad with me to make it happen. And we're sticking to you right now. We're like, what is happening? That's where our videos pick up.

Jet'aime McKinney

But, yeah, that's where, like, the first video picks up. And you okay? I was like, there's a lot of back and forth right before that, but it's not long, like, the video picks up not long after this interaction happens. Because I look at Sherry, it had to be the Lord, I don't know, but I was like, we need to record. We need to go tick tock, live like they can't just put us out of this room. Meanwhile, mom is like, what is happening? Because, again, she is still, like, laboring, right? Just fluids. Yeah. So we she turned the bathroom light on. Lord have mercy. She turned the bathroom light on because she is a part of this conversation as well. And so we're asking, like, first it was a visitation policy, as you heard in the video, and then we were like, visitation policy, like, we've been here before. I don't understand, and I'm sorry you're

Denise Bolds

not visitors. You're doers exactly with the hospitals. You're not a visitor

Shira Lawrence

care team. I am a part of her care team. You're part of physician but, but she has entrusted me. I've learned her. I know her family. I offer valuable insight for this team. So if there's a team. If there's something to talk about, the team, the wholeness of the team should actually be a part.

Denise Bolds

Hospitals use that visitation policy to their advantage when they want to, when they want us to come in and help a non compliant patient and get them straight. Oh, you're part of the team. Come on in when they want to get rid of us. Oh, you're just a visitor. You're going to have to go. It's exactly

Ravae Sinclair

kind of thing. I think there's also this, again, not listening and showing up with your bias. So we're talking about two individuals who displayed their bias in triage, bringing it back up into the room. And a lot of times if, and I know jetem, you had a shirt on that, I said, doula, but a lot of times, if we are the same ethnic group of the laboring person, people really don't want to give us credit for being professionals and being doulas. They will treat us like we're family. And so that becomes so instead of putting you all in the doula category, which I saw, the written policy, it said doulas. You're not in the number of potential visitors. You're not in that count convenience. They'll they decide to put you in. But you had identified yourself as doula on your shirt. I didn't see your shirt. Shira, but

Jet'aime McKinney

say anything about doula?

Shira Lawrence

I yeah, I made, I made sure not to identify myself as doula initially, because I need to be the family member. In case y'all say doula, anything I need to, I needed to go different than her

Denise Bolds

strategy here. Really the slippery slope we have to go through exactly,

Ravae Sinclair

sometimes, specifically. If I have a shirt that identifies me as doula, I always have a fleece and cover it right on. I will zip it up. Don't know which way they're you don't know

Denise Bolds

which and that's how they manipulate the system to get us in or out. So one of us had to be a dude. One of us out, and they want us to go away and not see and witness everything.

Shira Lawrence

Yeah, right. So I chose to be the non dual. This is all strategy, like you said, Yeah. And even when we were in triage, they kept coming in and asking, So are you the sister? I'm like, Yes, I'm sister. And so then they would ask dad, now who are the people in the room with her? They would go and ask him,

Denise Bolds

do you see what they're doing? Do you see how that that manipulation happens? Do you see that it

Shira Lawrence

was a whole scheme? And so I was standing firm that I was sister. Okay, gotcha. Okay.

Denise Bolds

Was treat this woman instead of all this manipulation, I think I just gave her

Jet'aime McKinney

an epidural. When she and just give her an epidural,

Denise Bolds

just treat her. Yeah, okay, got it. They would treat they were, they were, they were, you know, having their conference at the desk. And the doctor was literally treating her from a distance. He wouldn't come in the room, but he was treating her from the station, yeah, and sending in

Ravae Sinclair

people to do their bidding. He

Denise Bolds

was making the calls to try to figure out how to get you out Exactly. That's exactly.

Jet'aime McKinney

That's exactly what I believe he was doing. He was trying to figure out what he could say, what he could do, what he needed to do to make sure to get and he was

Shira Lawrence

running out of options. The labs didn't do it, the ultrasound didn't do it, didn't do it. So now there's a kid. I saw one over there sleeping under a blanket. Go get the kid. And now, if that didn't work, now everyone so this was it was obvious. There wasn't anything that we did that was an uproar

Denise Bolds

to warrant that behavior. You You did not.

Shira Lawrence

And I want to just edit the OB, the labor and delivery nurse, who've been saying online, in labor and delivery. We see confrontation every day between grandmothers dads. We see yelling matches in labor and delivery. We see things that actually the police officer,

Denise Bolds

yes, doulas aren't doing the physical the families too, exactly.

Shira Lawrence

Ravae Sinclair

No, they're afraid to be arrested, kicked out, accused of being aggressive. Again, the bias comes out. So he's standing down. He has two of you, and you all have been very effective, by the way, up to this point, very effective in moving through all the resistance and getting them in a position where she can get what she came to the hospital for, or at least closer to it, which was pain management, that's right. And the fact, I just

Jet'aime McKinney

want to speak to the fact that we have to be this strategic, like the fact that we have to think ahead and think about how we're going to be perceived, and dad has to think about how he's going to be perceived. And we got to have. Is this is insane. This is the reality, yeah, trying Yes.

Denise Bolds

That's what you have to do to get care. That you have to do to get care.

Ravae Sinclair

Insane. Get another girl in active labor at Yes, 100% effaced, zero, station eight to nine, centimeters dilated. This is what it takes.

Shira Lawrence

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. So then happens, you know, this is when the next thing that happens is, after the provider left out, he actually went and called for, I guess, more people or whatever.

Jet'aime McKinney

I think he called the house supervisor or the hospital. He was on the

Denise Bolds

phone. He was calling everybody up. He woke

Ravae Sinclair

everybody up. But

Shira Lawrence

you know who he didn't call. He didn't call any of his colleagues who were skilled and trained to facilitate this type of birth and say,

Ravae Sinclair

Hey, right? He could've just do it. He could've called. What he could've done to be effective was to

Shira Lawrence

call a friend, because I know he's got a friend. He'd been in the game a long time. Just like when I have situations that are I'm like, I don't know what to do. Ja, Tim, come through. He could've called Matt and said, Matt, Hey, come on. I need your help. I'll throw you $30 Let's go. But he chose violence. He chose the white

Denise Bolds

entitlement down from the leadership of this country. The white entitlement is real, and he was not going to give in to y'all blackness. No, he was not black.

Ravae Sinclair

Girls were going to come in and tell him what was going to happen in his or it was going to done, how he had decided it was going to be done. Okay, okay, so now you have, you have a number of officers in front of you. You're trying to get answers. OB storms out, yeah, still standing there. Or did she

Jet'aime McKinney

she went out with the she went out

Denise Bolds

with the doctor. Oh yeah, she's gotta stay on his side. Yep, and that was her leader.

Ravae Sinclair

Okay, now I gotta ask, how are you I know we want to know what you did. We saw some of what you did, but I want to know what are you feeling in your body at this moment and like, Were you scared? Were you angry, or what did that kind of stuff come after.

Jet'aime McKinney

I think that as we, as we continue to paint the picture, I think that as it continued, different emotions began to come. And I think that me and Shira were both in different places. I was upset in the moment because I was like, and then I felt like, you can't do this, like, this is not okay. Also, at the same time, trying to keep my mind on like, I gotta fight y'all, but I still gotta hear her in the bathroom having contractions, trying to speak for herself, because you even hear her in the video, like, can't I choose who wants, who I want to be in here, she said, I've been waiting five hours for pain management, but she's also speaking because she's also trying to in her labor, trying to make sure that the people that she wants in there don't leave in a hostile situation. Because it was hostile and

Jet'aime McKinney

she's by herself. I'm sure she wasn't worried about that. Yes, go ahead.

Shira Lawrence

I remember to my right, looking straight ahead as they're talking, I'm looking at her, and she's rocking through contractions. And I looked at the officers, and I was kind of pleading with them like this, like, You mean to tell me that with this woman about to push, she's gonna take us out the room? Like, that's really like, and I'm looking at this black gentleman, younger gym. I'm like, Are you like in your mind? This makes logical sense. I know you got a mom. I know you got a sister. So you're telling me that right now. You telling me, this can't wait till morning. This can't wait till after the day. You're telling me right now, it is absolutely necessary that we get out of the room. Look at her. I said, Look at her. She's about to have

Denise Bolds

her baby by herself. There would have been no one else there but you, the two of you. And so

Shira Lawrence

I'm and I'm, I hear it, I see it happening, but I'm like, I feel like I stepped back 60 years. I felt like I wasn't a citizen, I wasn't human. I felt like all of my intellect and a big ability to articulate and communicate effectively, and all of the things, nothing mattered. Nothing mattered in that moment. And I felt crushed, and I just kept thinking there, and then they wouldn't even, like, you know, we would go do hip squeeze or something she's across from. They won't let us move to go to her. So we're having this whole hearing, per se, in the room.

Speaker 3

They're trying to store. Yeah, it was, it was,

Ravae Sinclair

go ahead, and you didn't feel like you can say no, like, No, I'm saying

Shira Lawrence

she did. She would say no. And I'm just like, pleading. Like, tell me what you come on. Help me. And Tim was like, hard, no, we're not leaving. And I'm like, Y'all Help me. Help me. Make this make sense. You're really gonna knowing the climate of where we live and who this is, a black woman in this you're really gonna do this. Like, y'all cool with that. Like, that's me. And she's like, we're not leaving, so it doesn't matter. And I'm thinking, there's a child right here, so I can't go hard. No, with her, somebody got to stay down. But I want y'all to make it make sense.

Jet'aime McKinney

But then they started like, alright, well, let's start by getting the child out the run. So we was like, Cool. Like, no problemo, alright, cool. And so that takes place, and we get the child. Out of the room. And so then every they leave, then they come back. This time they sent the lieutenant of the public safety officers for the hospital. He comes in very unkind, I guess, riled up, because let's get these girls out, you know. And he begins to say, that's the second video. When you hear him saying, like, I'm not going to get into that. I heard. But if the doctors and the nurses said it, then that's what it is. I don't get into medical stuff, but you guys are impeding her care. We're asking for patient advocates. They're telling us there's because at this time, it's like 330 in the morning. They they're not they're not here right now, you can't get a patient advocate, but what you can do, like, you can get out. Essentially, like that was the only option given was get out. I am still a hard No, I in this moment, am angry, like I am angry that we are being treated this way, and that this mother is being treated this way. And honestly, in my mind, I'm just like you still, because every time we asked why it was visitation policy, which the nurse said that that wasn't the case, because she came in in a moment and was still trying to, like, get this epidural for this mom. And she told us, she was, like, the policy is two people plus a doula. Like, it's it. So I felt like, Y'all got a mute point there, so I'm gonna stay right here. And then when they kept saying impeding with medical care, they could never tell us, they kept on saying, well, we're not gonna

Denise Bolds

get into that. Well, we don't. We were still waiting

Jet'aime McKinney

for it, right?

Ravae Sinclair

You all have been facilitating it, trying to encourage

Jet'aime McKinney

it exactly. So while we're going back and forth with this lieutenant, and I'm like, hard, no, like, yeah, no, I'm not leaving the room. I'm not leaving her. Like, that's not what's going to happen. You can't tell me why I'm not going to leave the room. The nurse had walked out because also, mom is still like, can I please get my epidural? Like I'm in labor. Can y'all at least do that? The nurse says, I'm going to go get anesthesia. Right now. He's right. I'm going to go get anesthesia. He's coming Well, while we are going back and forth with this Lieutenant. Also, the video is only so long, because they kept telling me to record it. And I wish that in my mind I had thought like, I have a right to record for my safety. But they kept, like, acting like they were going to get my phone or, like, stop. They kept coming closer to me and telling me to stop recording. So I was just like, okay, like, I'll stop the video. And that's why we have a lot more audio recordings than we do a video recording. Yeah, because they couldn't, like, see that, right? But the nurse comes into the room. Anesthesia is out there. And she comes into the room, she was like, well, y'all, I don't know what to do. Because, remember, she was on our side. We like this nurse, this labor and delivery nurse, she said, y'all, I don't know what to do. I'm just letting y'all know they said that now she can't get an epidural unless y'all leave the room.

Shira Lawrence

It's now sterile environment.

Denise Bolds

That is unethical.

Jet'aime McKinney

Yep, she said. And she walks in, like, her hands up, like, now they're saying she can't get an epidural unless y'all leave. And so mom is like, what? And we're like, what we know. And then so then it's like, well, they said that, and this is sterile procedure. You can't have anybody in the room for a sterile procedure. And I was like, well, you can at least have one person in the room for a sterile procedure. If both of us have to it can't be both of us, one person. No, y'all have to leave, or they won't do the epidural. You can tell she don't agree with it, but she's saying like, this is what they're telling me. You know, y'all gonna have to get out of the room, and at that point it are now shifts like, well, now I also don't want to hold up her epidural. This is what we came for, and we five hours later and hours and the anesthesia is outside, is outside of the door, waiting, but he will not come in because they won't let him come in unless we get out of the room, right?

Ravae Sinclair

So you all leave.

Jet'aime McKinney

So Shira leaves. Shira left. Okay? I stepped across the threshold. She steps across the threshold. I am angry.

Ravae Sinclair

Okay, we hear you,

Jet'aime McKinney

okay, so what I do is fold my arms. I'll just be honest, you know. And I stood on the line, you know. So there's the the room, and

Denise Bolds

then there's the hallway, I know. Yes, the threshold,

Jet'aime McKinney

yes, that threshold, the little line right there, and I just stood there, and I didn't say anything. And he kept saying, like, come out in the room. And I just stood there, like, I don't have anything. I'm still like, how I'm out of the room enough to where they let anesthesia come in. So they do let anesthesia come in to do the epidural. But I was just like, like, somebody like, I'm not just gonna really, like, I just, it wasn't right, yeah, and I just couldn't just like, because I said, if one of us gets out of this room, who knows, then we might, nobody might be able to get back in that room. Like I'm not willing to just

Denise Bolds

who knows how to get out.

Jet'aime McKinney

Who knows what this exactly, and so I'm out of room enough for her to get an epidural, but I'm not out of the room enough for you to close this door. Yeah. Like, no, I'm not going to leave.

Denise Bolds

I'm feeling the stress, and I wasn't even there. I am so riled up right now,

Ravae Sinclair

and I understand the idea of, like, let me just move to the side to help this thing happen. Been but because we all know that the energy can shift. We've seen this in your in this scenario already. It can shift from moment to moment. So it's like, okay, if she gets epidural because they can't stall that, then maybe I can stay, maybe they'll sort of back down.

Jet'aime McKinney

Maybe she'll maybe she'll start pushing, and we can just okay the babies, because we were so close already, so we were just like, so I did not get belligerent. I did not I literally stood there on the line, and I just had my arms folded, and I just

Ravae Sinclair

silent. In fact,

Jet'aime McKinney

I went silent. I didn't say a word. I just stood there, and

Ravae Sinclair

I was just having conversation in your body and in your head, yeah, just like,

Jet'aime McKinney

and he's standing the lieutenant, guy is standing there, and he's like, bro, he just continues to say the same thing, remove yourself from the room. You need to leave the room. Remove and I'm just not saying anything. And I'm just standing there looking like because in my mind, I'm thinking, like, are you going to put your hands on me? At this point, the house supervisor has come downstairs. She's on the phone. She's telling me that I need to leave. They are, remember that forceps conversation that we had earlier? Obviously, they brought forceps down. Because guess what's happening at the nurses station right now? Because we can see the the room is right outside the nurse's station, they pick it up and are laughing and playing with the forceps together. Station, clapping the forceps together, saying, how do we even use these? He, he, ha, ha, clapping the forceps together and you're supposed

Denise Bolds

to leave when you're making a mockery of this woman's impending

Jet'aime McKinney

birth, because they, yeah, they brought the special forceps for reach

Ravae Sinclair

delivery tools that have to go into her body.

Denise Bolds

It's not sterilized

Ravae Sinclair

with it, okay? And this is where, yeah, I need a moment on that. That is, yeah, I'm not leaving either, right?

Shira Lawrence

So I am out of the room, but right next to her. I'm out of over the threshold, but I'm not gone. I'm right there next to her, right? Man at this point, this is where it all kind of changes for me. The officer that was telling her to leave. He gets almost nose to nose with her, and he puts he turns off his camera, and he said, Do not make me put my hands on you. And I felt my body like go limp on the floor. I just kind of slid down the wall right there. And your Tim was like, Sherry, you can't leave. You can't give up on me right now. Because I was like, it was like, I got shot in that moment. I was

Denise Bolds

like, what? And the fact that He turned off his camera, he knew he was being appropriate, inappropriate and right, professional. He knew it.

Jet'aime McKinney

Everyone's watching permission, because the hospital supervisor is on the phone pacing back and forth, a black woman on the phone pacing back and forth, and she said that they could use whatever force is necessary to remove us. So he felt, now, at this point, I'm on the phone with a lawyer, shares with a lawyer, because we have clients who are lawyers and who are attorneys. So I remember, because we actually have this moment audio recorded, and I listened to it again yesterday, and I remember that my client, who's an attorney, said, I am sure that he does not have the right to use excessive force on you like but he came to me and he said, and I remember hearing I said out loud. I didn't even realize I said it till I listened to the audio recording again yesterday. I said, Don't put your hands on me, because he came that close to me as if he was going to do that. He turned the little thing, and then he put his hand on he put his hand on something, as if there, I don't I don't know if was the taste. I don't know what it was, but he acted as though he was going to, like, physically remove me from the room, from the threshold, or harm me. Now, when you asked earlier, like, Were you scared? Were you feel up until this moment, I was angry, then I got scared. And I put my foot over the threshold, and I walked out of the room, and I say to Shira, after this happened, these were not like white faces. These were black officers faces, our faces. They were power faces. The entire nurses station is watching this happen. Remember, like there, this particular room was right outside the nurse's station. And so intentional, that was also intentional. Yes, they are watching everything that's happening. They're not saying anything. You know, they had their time when they was playing with the forceps, but they are very intrigued on what's happening. The House supervisor is like on the phone. There are other public safety officers by this point, because I hadn't left the room, they had decided to call the county police department. So the county police department was not there yet at this time, but they had called them because I would not leave the room, right?

Ravae Sinclair

So this is important, because, you know, they're going to be birth workers, doulas, who are listening to this and are trying to understand what is the extent of power over like that this hospital security has they don't have arresting powers, and they don't even actually have weapons. They might have a taser, and I don't actually think that they do, but. They cannot actually, you know, so there's some limitations to what they can do. And so this is why, because they, I have these limitations, this is why they you're not being arrested. You're not you weren't charged with obstructing an officer, because if they give you a command, you don't do it. They can charge with disorderly conduct, a misdemeanor. They can charge you. They can do a number of things, and it wouldn't have been the a lot of the back and forth. So I think that people do need to understand that there is a limitation. And people should do the research to understand what is the limitation of these law you know these security or safety officers that are actually in a hospital system, and know your rights, right, know to what extent that you can, you know, decline their invitation and leave the space. Okay, right? Oh, okay, so go ahead.

Jet'aime McKinney

I just think there was this dynamic of in that moment that I saw that there were plenty of witnesses, but I knew that there was outside of Shira, and we felt very powerless in this moment that there was no one there to protect me, and I got scared and walked out of the room. But we come into this space to show up to protect black women and and to support her and love on her. And in that moment, I felt like we became two black women who needed protecting ourselves.

Denise Bolds

You don't, and you don't have it, and you didn't have the protection there. Yeah, it took several hours, over five hours, no epidural, no no designated treatment. Okay, no treatment plan was explained to this client. As far as this is what we're going to do and how we're going to approach everything, nothing like that, but that same treatment was used to manipulate you, to get you out. Ethical.

Ravae Sinclair

That is right, this is the original request, and when you went into triage, exactly. So what happens next? You step out of the room and do you walk out, walk down the hallway?

Denise Bolds

No, we stay right there. Okay, okay, and she's girl. She gets the epidural.

Shira Lawrence

Yes, well, so the then the provider comes to us shortly thereafter, and he says, I had a chance to talk to the mom, and it wasn't you the whole time. We know it was her decision. We just had to get her alone to know that it was her decision. And you know you're not the one who's in