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0:00 Unlocking YouTube Ad Success: Understanding Key Metrics for Growth

11:52 More spend should equal more earnings?

16:30 What to consider when measuring conversions

25:21 Demystifying metrics advertisers usually evaluate

37:52 When increasing tROAS can hurt your campaign

42:29 How to determine YouTube ad spend

54:41 Performance Max asset groups and signals don’t matter now

1:07:37 A low tROAS is equal to Max Conversions bidding?

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If you're spending 10 grand a month or more in YouTube ads, you have

to know this, this is the way that it has to function in order to be successful.

did I overstate That one?

No, not at all.

And even if you're spending a little bit less than 10 grand, but if you're

thinking about YouTube, it's right to measure it properly from the beginning.

There's so many fail points that Google is interjecting itself you just don't know.

And that we didn't know until we started actually tested different metrics and

different, things that you probably don't even think about, but it really increased

efficiency to the point where we're able to scale cold traffic by massive amounts.

so we're gonna do a deep dive strap in.

Let's do this.

Yeah.

Dave says, holy crap.

Who's that guy?

It's fun.

Dave has been a.

long time listener, long time viewer.

He is.

let's get started in this week's lesson.

This week's lesson is gonna be talking specifically about YouTube ads.

And we have a client that's spending about three k a day in YouTube, and

another client that's spending a little bit more than that in YouTube.

Let me just actually get a metric here because it's gonna be important whether

you're starting off at like, $30 a day or 10 grand a day does not matter.

These are the metrics that you have to understand even to just scale.

That's what I think is a really, really, really important facet to know is client

spending about a hundred k a month.

about three or four grand a day.

So both about the same level, but There's a lot of things that people

don't necessarily look at when they're looking at YouTube ads and.

There's some tips and tricks that we've found to be very, very, very effective

that will help curb the over attribution that YouTube does and curb sometimes

even if you're not segmenting properly by measuring the results properly,

, you're not gonna see how good you think it is versus what it actually is.

And what I mean by that is Google has been implementing more and more ways

data-driven, engaged view conversions.

We'll take it one step deeper about where they're getting those gauge view

conversions that are making you think, wow, this campaign is looking really good

and I'm gonna dump more money into it.

It's kinda like P max.

P max make itself look amazing.

You get omnichannel traffic, you get brand, you get dynamic

remarketing for 2 cents a click, it's gonna fine roas wherever it is.

And then you dump in 10 x to spend and the client loses 2% revenue.

But Google looks fantastic.

YouTube is starting to do the same thing.

So Google's overreporting over-indexing, reaching with both hands in YouTube

the same way that we know that it's doing that inside of P max.

Right?

And the way that video action campaigns are kind of being structured now.

what it's happening is you've all seen the kind of progression, it's like leading

the lamb to slaughter kind of thing.

It's like, Hey, engaged view conversions, that's just now defaulted to three days.

Don't worry about it.

And then in the back end, what we didn't see is that engage view conversions

went from a ten second count.

When you're running vertical video, which is another thing Google's pushing,

it's actually a five second count.

So we pause there for just a minute.

What's the difference between vertical video and everything

else that we were running?

Yep.

So Instream skippable are a ten second before the count of you, a vertical

video, which is YouTube shorts, yep.

Is now a five second engage view conversion, which means if in a instream

skippable you have to watch at least five seconds after the skip, so you got the

first at least 10 seconds for Instream.

Yeah.

And then there's first five seconds after the skip.

So if you watch it, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and that says go ahead and skip it.

If you watch it for five seconds.

After that, you get charged and you get a view.

And if that person ever converts later on, Without even clicking on the ad.

You get engaged with conversion.

But we know that Google is contacting everyone says, Hey, vertical

videos, we see a 25% increase in conversions with vertical video.

Of course.

Why?

Well, one of the things is that a YouTube shorts that is not skippable.

I mean it is, it's skippable at any point in time, but there's

not a five second countdown.

If you watch five seconds of that ad, that's now an engaged view conversion.

Mm-hmm.

If they ever convert later on, even without clicking on the YouTube shorts.

It's interesting because, and shorts is prioritized real estate inside of

Google, that inventory is shoved in your face nonstop, and then once you're in

there, it's so sticky to you, like once you're in there it's hard to get out.

Exactly.

But then the other part too is like, okay, so how does YouTube shorts really start

to attribute more conversions to itself?

So I'm gonna first start off on a use case that is really.

Eyeopening and really mind blowing that I think is gonna shed a light on the

omnichannel attribution, which is kind of our specialty, who I've been known

as, kind of like the omnichannel gurus who I've been called on LinkedIn now.

And this will kind of be no different.

It's gonna be really, really, really interesting.

So I'm gonna pull up a campaign.

This is gonna be blurred if you're watching it live.

It'll be on blurred just for a moment.

there we go.

this is a client we're spending a whole bunch of money on, on YouTube.

What we did on March 1st was excluded the website traffic from

being able to be targeted by our top of funnel YouTube campaigns.

We already have our existing customers excluded.

What we then did is removed the actual website audiences, the

audience, why this client's spending a hundred grand a day on Facebook.

We're spending a million dollars a month in Google and a hundred

grand of that is on YouTube.

So we said we wanna scale cold traffic.

I don't really look at Google Ads in App metrics.

They're all BSS anyway, in my opinion, because of when you're

running heavy omnichannel.

And this says heavy omnichannel targeting, eh, you know, we already

know that it's gonna be messed up.

So what I did is said, I think those engaged view conversions

aren't real because as we start to scale YouTube, the amount of

new customers don't scale with it.

And it should, it's top of funnel.

It's brand new, right?

Well, when we excluded the existing website traffic and then put a

hundred percent more cost in here, you'll see that the click attributed

conversions went up a hundred percent.

Went from 273 up to 570.

Wow.

The Engage View conversions went from 1153 to 1199.

It only gained 3.9%.

Dude, that is nuts.

You just caught Google Red-handed there, selling them

their own traffic back to 'em.

The only thing we did was say you can't target people who've

already been on our site.

And we did this across all of our campaigns that are what they

call essentially top of funnel.

So watch this campaign name equals T O F, because we have remarketing, I

don't, I can't include those as well.

That's the YouTube rem, but the YouTube remarketing here.

When we scaled up 245%, our click attributed conversions and all

of our top of funnel went up 184 the engaged views went up 49.

So this did not scale as much as the clicks did.

It used to be four 50 and 1500.

Now it's 1200 2200.

Yes, there will be cold traffic that sees an ad and then converse later on.

I'm not discounting those.

I just don't wanna scale those.

I wanna scale click attributed conversions.

this is all these campaigns here, and it's really, really amazing that when you

like this one here, this campaign clicks 37% more click attributed conversions,

20% less engaged view conversions.

The first thing that we noticed is as soon as you take away the ability for

YouTube to auto target anybody else, based on what the bidding strategy

of maximized conversions, how is it gonna find people to maximize?

Well, website traffic's a good place to start.

Yeah, just show 'em an ad and become Facebook again.

You know what's interesting about that is it's the way that the mechanism

has to be built in that instance because in that campaign you're

not asking for website traffic.

It's not a remarketing campaign.

You're telling Google to go after independent ostensibly cold targets.

And Google's saying, and your website.

Exactly.

It's like I'm looking for in-market people who have interested in fitness.

It's an example.

It's not that, but there's examples where it's like in market and affinity

of these type of fitness people and it's like, cool, what if I found

two thirds of your conversions of people already on your website?

Well, don't scale that.

That's a bad idea.

Yeah.

Times amount to fraud.

It is.

It really is.

And I have 90 days worth of proof.

this isn't just like one day, one week, there's three months here of data.

So it leads into the other case study here.

My other case study that I've been scaling really, really well, This has

been actually kind of a funny case study.

In September of 2022, I actually stopped Performance Max for

YouTube for this client here.

Now what's really crazy is these clicks and the conversions, except for March.

This is a really, really messed up month.

It is a GA four issue, so we have to take that out.

Sorry, but besides that little mess up in tracking, this has been extremely

accurate with the clicks and conversions.

Why?

Well, when we look at the ad event type out of $485,000 worth

of spend, a a hundred percent of these happen click attributed.

We don't have Engage view conversion in this account.

So this scaling has been pure cold and in the backend of what I can

see from the client's HubSpot, this is actually perfectly scalable

into actual backend results.

Now we're only running Google, a little bit of Facebook, primarily

Google, but three grand of the five grand per day is on YouTube.

So when I push this, we see a great result in the back.

Now I can scale this from, a cost perspective.

And a conversion.

I can go from 70 grand down to 47 grand back up to 80 grand and a

conversions rise and fall with it.

it's predictable in the backend.

I'm always around 60, $65 c p A in Google.

I'm always around 140.

Yes, there's gonna be loss of attribution.

Would engage view conversion help?

Tell me what's actually going on in a singular omnichannel market.

Yes, we're spending 90% of our budget on Google, which means if I had engaged

view conversions or not, this scenario would probably be a little bit better.

I would be more clean.

It might be more like 90 if I have click attributed and engage

view conversions, which would be more accurate towards the truth.

But what Google is not gonna tell you is Wait, wait, wait.

Before you count, engage view conversions.

Are you sending traffic to your site from anywhere else?

'cause that's mine too.

And we like you to scale that because I could show a whole

great, amazing results off of that.

It's Facebook again, it's the click and view default, and

it defaults for three days.

All Google has to do is show an ad to a person that they think is gonna be

ready to buy and only be if they're not within 72 hours of that error window.

They're golden.

So when you're looking at click attributed, this scale

perfectly, and I've been doing this since October of last year.

So that was the first thing we saw, that engaged view conversions were going

after warm traffic, calling it cold.

'cause either A, Google doesn't know the difference, or B, it's the same type of

tracking that we're doing on Facebook.

It doesn't mean that it's necessarily wrong, it just means that we're both

really good at targeting the audience.

But there is overlap there.

Understanding the overlap and not scaling the overlap is

gonna keep your MER consistent.

Because if you're adding in more cold users, you're not adding in more cold

users and paying twice as much for warm users, your MER will stay the same again.

Merh is king.

ROAS sucks.

POAs sucks.

It's merh mer.

I don't challenge anybody.

and dude, all Mers says, and you've said this before, I think it's such a simple

concept that escapes so many people.

If you spend more money in ads, you should make more money.

It doesn't matter that your agency is showing you increased conversions,

increased roas, decreased T C P A.

If you spend more money, there should be more money in your bank account.

And that's what MER tells and shows you.

And that's why we want people to focus on meh.

If you'd add in 25% more spend, you should be getting 25%, at least more revenue.

It should be a one x growth, or at least there should be some growth.

But you can't point to a different metric and say yes.

But look at the likes in the comments and shares.

Look at the top of funnel, look at the awareness.

ROAS you wouldn't think is a vanity metric, but it becomes a vanity metric.

'cause it's like, look, we took all these people that were gonna convert and

we made them convert using Google ads.

Right?

Right.

Exactly.

that's what's interesting is first we're hammering Google metrics again

because it's designed to steal, just like Facebook, just like P

max, they're designed to steal.

I don't mean they're malicious.

What I mean is they are designed to take credit for everything they had a hand in,

even if someone else had a hand in them.

So let's look at some additional metrics.

Now let's look at how do we trim the fat?

How do we optimize this?

Okay, great John.

Thank you.

But what do we do?

Well, we have to look.

Deep into the metrics.

And we also have to look at where's their points of diminishing return.

So there's probably a whole bunch of columns I'm gonna share here that people

probably don't watch, probably don't look at, and I want to demystify them a bit,

because if you're running YouTube, you should be looking at all of these metrics.

Viewable, non viewable, measurable, non measurable, measurable, viewable,

C T R versus non-viewable and distribution, the average watch

time, even watch time in seconds.

All this stuff here, view rate looks bad.

It's not actually really, it's a different scenario.

I'm gonna demystify all of these for people because if you're not looking at

these metrics and looking at just roas and you're wondering why you can't scale,

or when you scale the clients upset, even though your metrics look good, this is all

of the information you have to look into.

And first, I'm gonna start off with a tip.

Go into your placements inside of your YouTube.

Go into placements and add this as a negative placement.

This is action item number one for anybody running YouTube, period.

Google adsense_without_youtube.com.

First thing you need to do, this is well known for probably half

the people watching the other half.

is a gold mine for you.

If you're watching this on recording, it's a gold mine for you.

This right here is gonna stop this from happening.

Inside of settings.

We all know that Google slash YouTube took away the ability for

us to eliminate the video partners on this Google Display network.

This is gonna mess up all of your metrics and fluff all of your, vanity

metrics like impressions and views.

It's gonna fluff it all and it's not gonna help you and you're gonna pay

for it because you're paying by views.

This is impression based spending, not click-based spending like

Google Ads is everywhere else.

But because Google said, you know what, I'm not gonna allow you

to exclude the display network.

I'm gonna show your ad on YouTube and then anything on our website I

deem relevant because I'm Google.

When did they do that, by the way?

It's like six months ago.

You know what's embarrassing?

I was on a perpetual traffic interview with heck.

And we were, we were live building a campaign.

He was actually auditing our campaign.

And then I asked him, I'm like, yeah, you know, do you ex

exclude display network or not?

And then he is like, well, you can't any longer.

And that happened in front of 300,000 people effectively.

So I need to stay up to date better because I didn't

realize that they'd done that.

Yeah.

So, so you can't, but what's funny is you can't, if you exclude that as a placement

exclusion, and then what happens is if you look at the, where ads showed in

the content here the where ads showed, you'll see on the network display there's

a bunch here that's still being shown.

And that's because google counts youtube.com as a display channel.

That's cool.

I'm good with that.

So watch this, this is says September 22.

After we add the exclusion, I'll have to see the date range

that we add the exclusion.

Just YouTube.

beautiful.

Now, this is in March, I think, but we've got about eight 110 K in spend

on other, that was the other bad part.

So now we have, with YouTube and display, it's all YouTube.

Now there is no display anymore, so we're on YouTube channels and YouTube sites.

That's quote unquote display.

So clean out the display traffic because it is very junky.

That's action item number one.

Action item number two.

If you're using conversions as your bidding strategy, and if

you're using conversions as to how to measure, I don't mean that

there's, you're measuring ancillary.

Don't mean you're measuring merr.

If you're still measuring conversions, you're gonna wanna go and exclude TVs.

What I mean by that is when you look at the devices, you're gonna exclude TVs.

Here, TVs are good, but if you're measuring by conversions

and you have a 25 second ad, people are just gonna let it run.

And they're not gonna click whether they like it or not.

They're not gonna run around and start to grab their clicker and be like,

oh my gosh, I gotta hit the button.

Otherwise, this advertiser's gonna be charged after 10 seconds.

No, but you're gonna pay for it, but you can't measure it because those people

are not filling out the conversions.

However, on this client, I have a really hard conversion.

It is very difficult to get a lead.

They have to take 12 minutes to convert.

They have to build an entire $25,000.

I can't tell you what it is 'cause it's gonna give it up, but it's

a piece of home furnishing that's 25, $30,000 and they have to

customize it with a bunch of things.

So it's a hard conversion.

You're not gonna get that on tv.

You can't do it off of a clicker.

And then at the end we ask you to fill out a form and then have

contact and then sales contact you.

It's a hard conversion.

Really hard.

P max worked a little while until we actually had

ClickFORMs going through that.

That was pretty amazing.

People ClickFORMs, were taking 12 minutes to convert all these things.

If you're measuring by conversion, make sure TV screens are excluded or

know that you're gonna pay for it, but you can't measure this solely.

This action item number two, action item number three.

Go into a scenario here.

Let's just call it last 30 days as an example, this is important.

This is especially important at scale, which is everyone's goal.

Everyone wants to scale.

if you don't, you're in the wrong channel.

But this is for scale.

you look at scale, Average impression, frequency per user is 2.6.

There are people yes, that see it more than five times.

I.

But on average, 7.7 million.

Watch once, 3.4 million.

Have seen it twice.

Now this impression, not view.

Impression, 7.7.

Saw it once.

3.4, saw it twice.

2.06.

Saw it three times, 1.4 million, saw four times and 984,000 saw five times.

Now, impression means two things.

One, an in-stream skippable is an impression.

Two, a YouTube search that shows your video ad or your

p l a is also an impression.

Is that technically YouTube discovery?

Yes.

Okay.

As part, it's part of the YouTube network though, unfortunately, what YouTube

did is they changed your video ad to a responsive video ad and now stuck it in

the YouTube search listings by default.

So know that if you're looking at impressions, you're not looking

at impressions as a people who watched an ad and didn't skip.

You're seeing image ads too.

Two.

What do we take from this?

We know that in a 30 day period, they see it an average of 2.4 times.

Good, that's fine.

2.6 in Forever Land.

Now we're using maximized conversions.

Again, you all know me, I'm a big proponent of always going

full bore measuring merr, never using an app, TCB and T ros.

But the byproduct of maximize conversions is at scale.

Google is gonna try to do two things.

One, show it to more users, but also show it to more users more frequently.

So that's gonna be a byproduct of that.

So what I usually will do is first, don't start your YouTube campaigns

with a impression frequency.

You don't know that if you know how many times it's gonna take for a person to

see an ad before they convert, I will hire you because you are a genius and

a psychic, but you don't know that.

So what this means is that first, gather the data.

Say, how many impressions on average does it take before a person converse,

but also my campaigns are healthy.

And then limit one after that.

On average, you saw that the people that are hitting five

is only like 12% of my total.

I'm limiting it now at four.

Why?

Well, I took this campaign from 300 day to 3000 per day, and when

I went from 300 a day to 3000 a day, you have an X and y axis.

I'm gonna turn off my, my screen share here.

You have an X and y axis.

X axis is ad spend.

Y axis is people with more ad spend.

Everyone assumes more people no maximize conversions.

More.

A spend means less people, more frequency.

So you're not gonna scale one to one.

There's a Z axi, right?

It turns sideways and there's a depth there that Google's

gonna have you pay for.

Why?

Well, one, they can get engaged view conversions when they can show

more ads to the same people more and more and just hope they buy.

But two, you're not gonna scale the same scenario.

You're scaling warm and cold now.

Locking it into a good, warm and cold funnel, meaning that I'm okay with

spending X on a first person knowing that in four days they will convert, or

in four impressions they will convert.

That's a good funnel for me.

I want more of that funnel.

I don't wanna mess up the funnel.

I don't wanna just start adding in more views of warm audiences that's gonna

hit a point of diminishing returns that scale your Mer iss gonna suffer.

So locking it into a four impression means that I'm taking the same exact

O that I know works with a healthy C P A and a healthy me, and a healthy

nac, and saying, I want 10 x of this.

I cap it here so that Google can't just start showing the impressions to 4, 5,

6, 7, 8, 12, 14 and turn into Facebook.

But now every dollar I put in, I get another person that's equally

in that funnel that I need, and that's why my scale looks perfect.

Mm-hmm.

Is there a way for you to segment by placement within YouTube?

Can you see the difference between what showed up in YouTube

discovery versus Instream?

You used to, I, we actually try to look at that earlier today.

Me and Caden both found it and we were studying it, and it was great.

You had a segment by network with search partners and it would say

YouTube and then YouTube search.

YouTube search was showing up like 10% of the time.

Sometimes I have not been able to get that scenario back.

That's interesting.

I, I remember the segmentation existed at one point, but even YouTube versus

YouTube search, YouTube standalone could mean instream, but could also mean

the recommendation tiles, the display.

here's why I'm asking, because I feel like placement in YouTube is

so critically important and not all placements are created equal, obviously.

And then our inability to direct placement puts us at YouTube's Mercy.

They're just gonna sell us the inventory they have, not necessarily

what's gonna work the best.

is there a way to force placement?

you can, but what you're doing is you're saying is two things.

I either know the area that the people are gonna be, And I

will, and that's the placements.

Or I let Google find them and I just get whatever placements I get at scale.

It's a little harder to lock into placements unless those audiences are huge

plentiful and that channel's also allowing ads on their site or on their channel.

So, but even if a video doesn't allow ads, Google Place ads on that video.

Technically, yeah, I've seen a lot less though.

Okay.

That was gonna be my question.

That seems to be tapered down.

Yeah.

I can't spend full daily budgets on it.

It was like one 10th of what I thought I could spend.

So it will show ads, but not every time.

The other part too I thought was interesting.

Google is allowing it to do that because if you're not using placements

and someone just happened to go on yours, on your channel, they'll show

an that to that person knowing, 'cause the right audience, wrong channel.

Mm-hmm.

I don't think that you'll be able to force placements on a channel that

doesn't have that monetization turned on.

Interesting.

that's what's really cool about this is if you're looking at scale

wherever they are, what I did is I developed a scenario that worked

well and then locked it in at scale.

The way you lock it in is not letting it go to display and not

oversharing the ads to the same people.

And then also not allowing it to take an engaged view conversion.

So stripping out those fattiness of, is it gonna show on an apping

kid game and a news channel more?

If you have maximized conversions on, yeah.

It doesn't care what the CPA A is, it'll hit it.

It's be like, Hey, your CPA triple, but I spent the money.

What'd you do?

I maximized conversions.

Well, how much more conversions did you get for three times to spend or more?

I maximized them.

It doesn't care.

So it will go crazy in different directions.

TV would overs show, display would overs, show impressions, would

overs show it's doing whatever, kinda maximize conversions.

allowing it to be stay aggressive, hacking off the points that

you know, that Google's gonna spend your money and scaling.

It gives you a real clean scale.

You ready to start taking some questions?

I got one last thing.

Ooh.

We're gonna demystify now some of the metrics that people look at.

this is what's crazy.

So check this out.

Right now I have two ad groups that are so close.

They're literally within 33 cents of each other.

Cost per conversions this last week.

They're great.

what we're looking at is 58, 60 conversions.

They're both at 1 59.

Good cost per views.

Good.

All right.

Now let's start into measuring what's actually good.

here's an area that Google's gonna screw you up.

See the interaction rate four and five 15.

Once triple the interaction rate, but the same basically cost per lead.

Same amount of leads and the same cost.

Like what's the difference?

Well, the interaction rate is not a click, Look at the clicks

and versus the interaction.

Interaction is a view.

Interaction is a, like an interaction is a share.

An interaction technically could be going to your YouTube channel and getting

an earned view because they looked at other videos on your YouTube channel.

Those are all interactions.

Those are indicative of intent.

You can see the impressions 3.1 million at 858,000.

Well, why am I spending more here and getting more sales if the

impressions are massively different?

This one's actually showing up a little bit more than I can see.

Instead of YouTube search results, which then jumps over to this metric

way over here called view rate.

View rate is not how often a person saw your ad.

That's watch rate.

View rate is what people are getting confused is if my ad shows

on YouTube search and YouTube Instream skippable, this is your

click through rate to a watch.

What that means is that if you do a YouTube search and your ad shows

up and people don't watch it 'cause they didn't click on it, your view

rate goes down even though nothing happened to your instream skippable.

Those are perfect.

So a view rate is measures a percent of people who watched your video

after they saw the video or thumbnail.

It equals the number of views your ads received divided by the

number of impressions, not Instream impressions, but all impressions

including thumbnail impressions for in feed, which just means homepage.

So view rate is for display, watch rate is for Instream.

Exactly.

So you see here, my views are a little bit down, a little bit here, but

nothing to the point of like the crazy under a million, above 3 million.

It's not, over three times better.

they flip flop a bit.

The converge rate's about the same.

I don't care about this.

This is just YouTube is showing my ad more in a search result and

it's not getting engagement there.

That's okay.

I'm not trying to, so don't base your metrics off of this and don't

base your metrics off of impressions.

Impressions are solely dependent upon, did Google stick you in the search results?

If they did, all of a sudden your view rate gets cut in half and

you're like, oh God, what's going on?

Nothing.

Let's look at watch time.

This is a great metric to watch, Watch time measures the total

amount of time that people watch your video ads in seconds.

I have 5 million seconds of watch ads, 1.9 million seconds of watch time here.

Also, by the way, these two audiences are very closely tied together.

I'm not competing against them.

I'm trying to just cover them, but if you're gonna measure them, that's

what that actually represents.

That's 7 million seconds in the last seven days of watch time.

Your ads are doing more than click attributed.

By the way, don't measure in-app roas, please.

For love of God, you're cutting yourself short.

7 million seconds is 116,000 minutes.

That's a lot.

I had to Google that.

Now here's the bad part.

Don't do this.

here's where you have to watch.

Do not say, wow, that gets a better average watch time per, per impression.

Wow.

They watched 25% of the ad more they're watching this one here,

but now they're watching this less.

what am I doing here?

what actions should I take?

Hmm.

Nothing.

Nothing yet.

Here's the reason why.

What does everyone want when their ad gets shown?

what are we all trying to do when our ad gets shown in YouTube?

What do we want the person to do?

Click.

Right?

Wouldn't that mean that I have less watch time out to 50 seconds and less

average watch time per impression and average less watch time.

They click more.

What a good point.

The watch time could actually be bad.

It's like they're not clicking, they're watching.

You're too interesting.

Well, that's what's so funny too, is like this one has 5 million wash time,

2 million in wash time, but we're 159 each, and I just have 12 more here.

That's not a difference.

Can I say something obnoxious?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

This is tangential, but I think so important.

What did we spend to get this?

We spent what?

To get 7 million.

Oh, client I spent 20 grand this last week.

Yeah.

Okay.

So 7 million seconds is 2000 hours.

Basically 1,944.

2000 hours of high-end, high value brand placement.

'cause and here's the thing, if you're running just pure, display

ads, that's not the same thing as somebody watching a video.

Mm-hmm.

Like watching a video, they've potentially seen your face, heard your voice,

they've been exposed to your messaging.

obviously you're getting the result, but you're also getting for 20 grand,

2000 hours of like human life invested in your brand that at some point is

still available and accessible to you.

I know we're not supposed to bank on vanity metrics here as

a performance agency, but gosh, that feels so valuable to me.

Well that's the reason why we have clients that come to us and fill out

our form and says, I've been watching you guys for the last three months.

There's another brand that I think has been watching you heard

nothing YouTube land that's been watching us for a couple of years.

But you know, we're paying 10 bucks an hour basically for people's attention.

That's unbelievable.

$10 an hour.

That's, that's good.

Yeah.

That's good.

Especially they're interested.

Make a note for Jack to go edit.

The 38 people here are in the know.

that's the thing.

We have people that, big brands, little brands, they all reach out to us and

they're like, I love your content.

I'd love everything that you guys put out.

and then the sales process is just like, okay, sign here.

it's great because now we're working with people that know how we work

and we don't have to sell ourselves.

We've been selling ourselves for months on YouTube.

Did I have clients who get on sales calls now?

They're like, no, I understand Merr, I understand attribution.

And I'm like, you understand this way more than I do.

This is actually really dangerous.

It's good stuff.

So I wanted to demystify things of it.

When you're looking at cost per conversion, that's the end goal period.

Do not try to predict that one ad is much shorter with a high call

to action and one ad is a lot longer, that has more education.

You're gonna have more watch time on that one.

You're gonna have more clicks in there.

One.

These two are running two different strategies to two different audiences that

overlap a lot with two different messages based on the way we're finding them.

One's a competitor list of all of the people also along with contractor lists

because they do home improvement things.

And then the other one is just my targeting.

So it's like, are you interested in the targeting and are we looking at

contractors for home improvements because I have a home improvement

item I'd like to sell you.

Great.

I'm blanketing my audience, which is what I wanna do.

I'm not necessarily competing them because everyone knows, especially the

last thing that people need to take home.

You need to understand this is I have two ad groups.

I spent 10 grand on average a week.

In both those ad groups, a person in ad group A is also the

same person as in ad group b i.

Don't confuse the two.

The overlap rate's like 70%.

It is ridiculous because my one campaign, some max, my conversions has two different

audiences that are fairly similar.

So they're just gonna overlap.

If I kill one, the other one's gonna die.

'cause all I did is just cut my impressions in half.

Mm-hmm.

know that the overlap rate is so strong that your ad group separation

by targeting is not indicative of actual separation of users.

So when you're talking about optimization and measurement, know

that those are gonna be overlapping.

So try to double down on what you see works.

Do not try to make one versus the other one better.

You will never know the overlap rate.

Just know that it's there.

And the overlap rate is how bad did your campaign tank when you

try to turn off the bad one.

You ready to do questions?

Ah, let's do q and a.

You wanna know why I'm eager for q and a?

Because I have a job at q and a.

Yeah, I get to read the questions which people can do for

themselves, but I'm gonna do it.

We've got John says 2,500 conversions using max clicks with no limits.

I switched to max conversions with 1% to, you realize, would it work better?

I wonder?

Well, it's interesting.

What campaign type are you using?

See if you're allowed to use max clicks and max conversions, that's not shopping.

can't use max conversions in shopping and that's not gonna be pax.

It's gotta be a search campaign, I would imagine.

So if so, no max conversions with a 1% t r is not gonna help.

I think max clicks actually seems to be working better for you because

you're looking like you're scaling on volume because you measured it in

the question by 2,500 conversions, which means not c p a, not roas.

If you're measuring volume, I would actually stand by clicks if you needed

to drop C P A or if you needed to massage, like, this is my MER is bad.

I have a ton of leads maybe, but very little sales.

We gotta measure something different.

It's not bidding strategy related.

It would be lead quality.

That would be keywords, it'd be offline importation of conversion actions.

Then measure based on what those clicks that are coming from and if they're

actually delivering you quality leads.

So you didn't use any.

Mm, conversion based questions here.

So I'm thinking this is a search campaign for lead generation, Joan.

Lemme know if I'm wrong.

But that'd be my recommendation.

I actually keep it on.

Max clicks max clicks well optimized.

Great.

It looks like you're going after volume.

It's doing a great job at that.

So, in Tutu.

Hi John.

What's the easiest?

You can see this.

What is the easiest way to prove that Google data is not true?

Always compared to Google Data.

Hope not to say because AI said so.

No, I'll give you a big use case.

Costume.

You look like it dropped off.

No, I, I'm still here.

Restream has the ability for me to take my face out.

Oh.

And I wanna use these as reels.

Yeah.

See, but that's, so like, if we're using this as a reel, it's just

gonna be like one idiot sitting there listening to the other guy talk.

So that idiot should just be gone while the, the guy's talking, right?

Yep, that works.

I'll share with them a quick use case.

This use case is actually, important for me to share because we had a

client that has a C M O come in and essentially said, Hey, I measure in-app.

And I said, I don't, think that's a good idea.

And I gave all the reasons as to what Joe Muir question would be.

And I said, here's all the reasons why.

Is because what you can't measure is gonna hurt.

It's gonna hurt the client, it's gonna look good in Google.

My job is not to make myself look good as to make the client win.

And he believed that if the Google looked good, the client won.

the core values that I bring to the table as a Google ad

specialist contradict Google.

The other person did, believed Google very much.

And on the 15th I said, you know what?

Let's give this a month.

But I'm gonna bow out.

I'm gonna stop touching the campaigns.

Mr.

Cmo, you make all the changes that you would like and we will simply measure

later on if this was a good idea or not.

I said, I do not wanna be a part of it.

'cause my strong belief is that the client's gonna be hurt.

And because we have a difference of opinion, I don't want there to

be a time period where we look back and said solutions they could make

this work because we try to make it work because I agreed to go along

with something I disagreed with.

So what I mean by that is, here's a small last two weeks window on the 15th

of this time period is when I bowed out and let the C M O take over and the C

M O took over and said, Hey, I disagree that a 40% T ROAS is actually working.

If you're hitting your target, why not increase?

And I said, well, if you increase the T rows, all you're gonna do

is hurt the backend, but you're gonna make Google look a little bit

better, even on standard shopping.

we had this thing go from 40% T rows all the way up to 140%.

It was a big increase.

And in that time period, the only thing that happened was

we had a 5% increase in cost.

Our cost per conversion went up 6%.

Our conversions dropped by one.

So we actually lost a little bit of conversions for more cost.

And the RO has dipped by 1% and the conversions lost year.

I mean, basically nothing happened.

The C P A went up, but what ended up happening also is

the brand started to tank.

Mm-hmm.

The return traffic through the brand started to go down and now that the

client actually can't spend $200 a day, that was, that was made there.

And actually on the 25th, it's only spending now 348 a week.

So brand is tanking because your standard chopping campaign got a

little tighter, but all the stuff you couldn't see and you couldn't track and

couldn't measure, it's not coming back.

And your brand campaign, because you decided to crank up the restrictions

to try to make standard chopping campaign look a little bit better.

then the competitor, he goes, Hey, I want a six x the competitor.

I'm like, please, for loving God.

Don't it's not gonna do that.

So it cranked up 200% and we got 14% more conversion value.

So long story short, all the changes that happened in the campaign

of the campaigns are active.

13% more spend.

15% less conversions and 35% higher cost per conversion by cranking up

the T rows and T C E P A and trying to make Google look a little bit better.

Meanwhile, the back end of the client is tanking.

Everything's down, and the only thing that are down is

direct, which you can't measure.

But also search.

They're spending more on social, they're getting more, everything else

looking good, but the unknowns that they can't measure such as direct

is now down, which is the largest thing because I was running standard

chopping, but that is now tanking.

Unfortunately, no one will believe you until this happens.

So Google ads looks a little bit worse.

this area here, which is our biggest area, looks a little bit worse even

though they're spending a whole bunch more money on, on social.

What I was doing instead of search was so immeasurable that.

Even a 40% T row is getting one 40.

I'm like, that's the best we're gonna get.

That's all we can track.

I know there's more, but we can't track anymore.

If you try to tighten up the restriction, the backend is gonna stop going after

more exploratory audiences that we're doing good, that we can't measure.

It's just gonna wipe those out.

Google Ads is gonna focus on what they know works means you can't

scale, you're not gonna be able to get actually the backend return

direct traffic that you can't measure.

Google ADSD might look a little bit better, but the client is going to lose.

And that's why I bowed out because I love the client.

I disagree with the cmo, so I said, Hey, I'll just take a step back,

let you do whatever you'd like.

I just don't want be any part of it.

You think that client's coming back?

I think so, but yeah, what's bad too, is I can see the CMO still cranking

up the budgets and , it's not even hitting daily spends now, which

is what I told him that happened.

He said, I don't believe you.

I sent over 10 use cases.

He said, I still wanna do it anyway.

I just said, Hey.

Have at it.

So we're taking a month off the client's like, I don't wanna burn a bridge

with the US said no burden bridges, I just want to have a rock solid alibi.

That said, I never touched anything during this test.

Yeah, dude.

What is it When the general on the battlefield wants to step

down and start telling like the mortarmen how to fire the mortars.

If you're actually a C M O, you should be big picture strategy.

You shouldn't be like, oh, I know how to press these buttons better than you do.

that was the thing too is like, I get it.

if you don't know the loss of attribution and the pushing of performance max

and the purposeful decay and I can't convince you after 10 use cases and you

still say no, I dunno what else to do.

that's why I was like, Hey, I'll hang back and I said I'll be here whenever you need.

If you have any questions, I will be here.

She's not panning out yet, that's a good answer to your, how do we know?

Send 'em this video.

Next up from Joan, how do I use customer match lists?

Google just allowed me to do it.

Does it improve performance drastically?

No.

Well, I mean, what are you gonna do with the customer match list?

If you're gonna go after existing customers, up to you.

If you're using 'em as lookalike audiences, you can't use that

anymore to similar audiences.

So they just call 'em optimized audiences now.

I don't use customer match list for anything else but exclusions.

That makes sense.

We focus on pure nacac, yes, it can drastically improve

performance if you block all them.

That's so funny.

That's actually, dude, that's good advice.

Exclude 'em.

Jannik.

Hey guys.

Imagine a scenario where you get a new successful account that's open to running

anything but never tried YouTube, let's say a hundred thousand budgets a month.

How much would you allocate to YouTube roughly?

I.

I don't know that scenario.

We have to look at omnichannel marketing.

How much are they spending?

We have to look at the goals.

What are they focused on?

If they're focused on MER or nac, two way different things.

Because if they're focused on mer, no, YouTube, MER is just steady.

If they need to scale, they have to look at nac.

And if they're looking to scale at nac, then yes, YouTube.

And depending about the industry, maybe about 10 to 15,000 of

that a hundred thousand dollars.

If they're looking to scale nac, well not the amount of it, but scale more

new customers, I guess I would say.

depending upon the goal and depending upon the existing situation.

And how much does a client also look at ROAS versus mer?

Because if you ever run YouTube and the clients RO as only focus, you will

lose a hundred percent of the time.

never gonna win.

You're never gonna beat search and shopping from YouTube clicks.

But if they take a step back and say, here's omnichannel.

MER and YouTube.

Remember last, it was like two weeks ago when I did hammock

case study and we scaled at 2.0 Facebook merr we scaled at three x.

I just said, yeah, but I don't remember that I lied, right?

And the MER got better.

this is the case study here.

it'll take me two seconds here.

This is the funny part.

If you're looking at MER or looking at roas, I guess I should say, if you're

looking at inep roas, no one is going to think that you're smart by doing this.

We're looking at April 15th to May 15th.

If you look here, oh.

Nope, there's doing the one more before that.

Let's do this yeah, March 15th to April 15th.

If you look at the scenario and say, wow.

Google ads spending 43, Facebook spending seven.

You get a four, they get a one.

They thought I was crazy when they said, crank that up higher

than Google will do better.

Everyone looked at me like I'm stupid.

But you'll look at 43,000 and 7,000 and watch this.

So just look at this.

remember these numbers six, top line 43 7.

look at the last 28 days.

Seven.

Top line F six went to 56 and Google has stayed the same.

our two went to three.

My Google went from seven to eight.

Our top line actually raised, we were able to put 67% more spend for 40% more

revenue and scaled really well because we took a one x click attributed network

and scaled it because I knew there was more view attribution that I can't

count what happens when people view an ad view and have view ad the Google the

brand name and look at Google has 20 to spend 7% more to make 30% more revenue.

you're nutty Rainman.

How would somebody else know that?

Well, you don't.

What do you do is you say, if we're gonna test YouTube, what is our baseline mer?

What is our goal?

Mer?

If I add YouTube and after two weeks what happens?

We start to measure.

If I put in that crank up that Aspen Merh should hold tight, but

we should see revenue crank up.

That's the only thing.

It just spend, well, two weeks is arbitrary, right?

It depends on the sales cycle, the product.

Well, I was saying after two weeks, you start to measure, okay?

Soren two.

Two.

How can we prove that PMM Max audiences don't mean anything?

Here's what's funny about Soren's questions.

I feel like he's playing Google ads, drinking games,

and losing, and now he's help

You can only really use Nor Beam.

Honestly, that's the only way.

Unless you have a way to measure a new versus returning

click, you can't prove it.

not in Google anyway.

You can scale it and Google will simply just take away from other channels.

It's the same thing like Performance Max.

I put 7% more budget, got 30% more revenue.

And even Nor Beam showed that I made 17% more sales.

I didn't press a button, I didn't do anything.

I didn't touch the campaigns.

It just made 30% more revenue because I told a client, if you

scale Facebook, Google's gonna look better and I have 84 asset groups

all pure cold in that campaign.

84 cold p max asset groups, and I think just gained 30% more revenue.

It's all fake.

Dave Fogle, I found some YouTube shorts at Target matching tops

also, it's not even a dad joke.

That's like a granddad joke.

my Fever Brain chuckled Jordan new accounts standard shopping campaigns.

What would the ideal starting bidding strategy?

I'm using max conversion value with enhanced C P C waiting for more data.

T Row has a 20% jannik.

As you can see, I haven't run a lot of YouTube from the questions, but is

there a way to target audiences for YouTube, or does it always optimize?

Targeting expands the audience you give to Google.

it won't necessarily always expand, but it will expand inside the audience.

So turn off optimized targeting in one campaign.

If you wanna test optimized targeting, test optimized targeting in a separate

campaign, because optimized targeting means it gets to go wherever.

Want warm, cold exists, it doesn't matter.

It's just gonna go wherever we want.

So sometimes those look a little bit better.

But if you look at the insights tab in a YouTube optimized campaign,

sometimes you'll see cold traffic audiences that then you can use inside

your YouTube campaigns because YouTube with optimized targeting turn on,

will still give you audience insights.

So here's my plan.

Run a YouTube with optimized targeting.

Only turn on first.

Then you're gonna have probably pretty good performance, which saves you

from getting berated from your client.

Just know it's gonna be half warm, half cold.

And then look inside the insights tab, you'll see that these are five

audiences that look to be good.

Take those five audiences, stick them in a targeting campaign of those five

audiences with optimized targeting turned off, and now you're hitting the targets

that optimize targeting found, which is the core audience, even though it was

intertwined with the warm audiences.

You know what's sad to think about?

Dude, I, I think we would make more money and be more successful as

an agency if we just used YouTube and or Google in app metrics.

if we bought the lie and just said, yeah, RO is up.

I think you'd get more client.

'cause it's so hard for people to know and to tell.

Well, I don't understand the scenario that just happened, but

I was like, Hey, allowed myself to bow out because I neglected

to make myself look good in apps.

Right?

Like why would someone do that?

like, sure, I'll turn on p max.

Capture a bunch of brand.

You're already spending five times as much of Facebook.

We have 500 clients.

Client first.

Dude, you know what happened though?

Then that client first came to us a year and a half ago.

He was running five PMM max campaigns.

And I said, don't take me on, pause Pax, you'll be fine.

And then he paused Pax and was fine for three months and came

back and said, you know what?

I'd actually rather give it a shot.

I said, cool.

So we took him on saying, this is gonna be speculative.

You're not a Google Ads company.

This is gonna be hard.

You have a unique wizzy wig that no one's ever heard of before.

It's similar into content pivots.

So we started YouTube and we started shopping.

Shopping was doing good, YouTube was doing good, but to not a good

roas, but we measure backend.

That's when the CMO said, well these metrics in app look terrible.

I'm like, I know on purpose.

And that's where we disagreed.

What's sad about this is we're the ones that convinced the

world to use Performance Max.

Yeah, I know, right?

But we're also vindicating ourselves.

'cause we're like, wait.

People, we found the rules well used to work and now it doesn't.

We us How do you differentiate between organic and paid sales?

And Shopify can't.

Oh, unfortunately you can't.

Joan, what what would consider as a negative keyword the criteria that

would consider negative keywords?

Standard shopping can do negative keywords.

Actually, let me, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm thinking again.

For will lead, what was that other question?

How do you differentiate between organic and paid sales and Shopify

Organic and paid you can't really, I mean, the only way is u t M, but do you

have a 40% decay in u t m parameters?

you have directional, but you're not gonna be a hundred percent.

Okay.

Sorry, Joan asking for advice on negative keywords in standard shopping.

What would consider as a negative keyword, the criteria that would give,

consider a negative keyword because you're not gonna be able to measure

in-app performance of standard shopping because Google is gonna steal it.

And for anything else like P max or just not counting it at all.

And even Shopify, I saw it an unknown conversion action like it was saying, we

don't know how this person bought from us.

Even Shopify's like, I can't see it.

So I think that Google is actually pushing it down.

'cause even Shopify can't see my standard shopping conversions.

I just know it's there because when I crank it up, everything goes better.

My opinion is because standard shopping goes so broad and so wide, exclude

anything that you, common sense would say that's not good because you're

gonna spend the rest of the money on the other ones that you didn't.

I said, you know what, I like those better.

And then measure Merr unfortunately or get nor Beam and try to measure first click

versus last click as much as possible.

Yan Slotnik called out Dave Fogle for not watching the Ultimate

Guide to Google Ads Part four.

aren't we supposed to shoot a part five or six?

I don't think we finished the Ultimate Guide to Google Ads.

I don't remember.

I don't remember either.

See, this is what happens.

People, when you get what you pay for, it's a little messy.

It's somewhere I'll, we'll figure it out.

Sorry, y'all Dave, go watch that.

Emmanuel Philippe, I target different keywords in p max and search campaigns

to reduce overlap with targeting the same keywords, increased cost.

So I actually don't use Performance Max kind of anymore.

And then in my campaigns, because they're focused on n Hold on in fairness though,

just so everybody knows, test them daily.

Is that a fair statement?

I test them.

Yeah.

well it's funny is I run a feet only as much as I can.

With no signal and signals mean.

But it's an important distinction.

You're not saying I don't use Performance Max, so I don't know.

You're saying I have tried to use Performance Max over and over and over and

over and over again and it's not working.

Yeah.

I'll give you a good scenario here.

here's what I would say is I use a feed only with no insights.

I never use any insights 'cause I leverage Performance Max

to go after what I give it.

So I use the insights as in my other campaign.

So in your specific example, performance Max will go after the quality search

terms from your search campaign.

Whether you add it to Performance Max or not.

The Performance Max will overtake anything else.

That's what it's designed to do.

So give it a different campaign for it to overtake.

That will be stronger than any signal that you give P max.

That'll work.

We got all the way through the ultimate guide, part five, and I'll

see if there's, did we end with a promise to do a part six also?

These comments are amazing, dude.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Nice.

I can keep going on here too.

All right.

Separate asset groups based on product or audience for Performance Max.

I know we just kind of said we don't use Performance Max.

let me share with you the mess up here.

I'm gonna do a whole live on this because here's what I wanna

demystify for everyone too.

How p max asset groups and signals don't matter now.

And Google even gave us a tool to prove it, and no one has seen it.

And no one uses it.

It's mind boggling to me that I see a lot of these people on LinkedIn that are not

screaming from the mountaintops on this.

let me give you a, a, quick scenario.

The 36 people out there, this is gonna be a goldmine for you to pierce

through how bss it's the assets and the signals are, for example, that

campaign that I just shared with you is getting $55 a conversion.

It's costing in the last two, let me do this last 14 days here.

It's costing.

Last two weeks I spent 13 grand and made myself a.

138 grand.

Wow.

So fantastic.

And then it says, Hey guys, did you know that we actually have now the asset

groups tables where you can now see what asset groups are performing well?

And I'm like, holy crap.

And the internet blew up and everyone's like, whoa.

I finally get to optimize my asset groups.

And I'm like, okay, wait a minute.

So you're telling me that I have 53 conversions and $33 of conversion,

and I made $24,000 in conversion value with a 14 x return in my

in-market office supplies asset group.

That is fantastic.

A good thing is putting a bunch of cost there.

Man, I love this.

Conversion rate's good.

Everything is looking hunky dory, like beautiful.

And I'm like, you know what?

Why is my in-market office supply selling hammock so well, and then

you look at the insights tab and then after you look at the insights

tab here, you scroll down into, I.

Which is brand matches.

82 of my asset groups, even though it is quote unquote removed as a

branded keyword in Google, that was just continually screwing me.

And you look at the asset groups and say, where's all these branded

conversions coming and converting from?

Wow.

Oh, weird.

I got 10 grand in in-office mark and office supplies.

Thanks.

My asset groups don't mean crap.

My signals don't mean crap.

I can't measure anything because of return tracking.

Google just went office supplies.

What does that help me?

It doesn't.

So wherever Google just decides to plop that conversion there, you're

gonna go, what is the ad copy?

What are the headlines?

What is the long headlines?

What is the descriptions?

What are the signals?

Let me optimize it.

And then Google says, brand conversion now over there.

And you're like, oh no, what's going on?

It's all fake.

It's all junk.

Signals.

I have a brand excluded in that signal.

I have a hundred percent.

I have 83 cold traffic.

No warm traffic, no brand, no existing users, no converters.

None of my asset groups have any warm audiences.

None of my data at all.

But it just decided to plop my last 25 grand in branded

conversions in that asset group.

And now all pm M X doesn't mean anything anymore.

So when people say, what should I do?

My answer is no.

Honestly, that's why I'm switching back to standard shopping more, more.

it's so fluffy.

I love it when I hear you Gearing up to be sarcastic.

Emmanuel.

Philippe.

Expensive products.

Three K.

And over in a small budget, 10 K a month.

Should I set initiate checkout as primary conversion for a better optimization?

Yeah.

No, no, no, no.

Only only do checkout please.

I have another use case I could share, but if we wanna, it's

interesting idea though, right?

It's like, all right, it's a super expensive product and this is a

predictive indication of intent.

So hey Google, gimme more people to do this.

The problem is the bidding strategy, unless you're running manual C P

c, I guess that's the question.

If you're only running manual c p c, for sure, but if you're running an

automated bidding strategy, never.

The problem is you're, you're looking at a few things.

You're looking at, if I get more of the smaller conversions, naturally I should

get more of the bigger conversions.

That's not always true.

More often than not, it's not.

And there's a very popular P p C company that we take a lot of business from that

always do micro conversions, and I always shut 'em off and we always do better.

And I'm gonna pull up a very, very simple use case, and I think that this is gonna

be really important for people to see.

And I'm just gonna pull in the last 14 days, year over year, and hopefully

this comes up on the screen here.

Well, while you're looking for that, can I ask you about that agency?

Yeah.

does it rhyme with ontological suppositions?

No.

lemme see if I can pull this up here.

I need to add in all conversions.

Hold on.

All conversions.

While you're doing that, Dave said something funny.

I trained an AI bot on everything John said.

So now I just ask it what I should do with my ads.

I'd love that.

He calls it W W A I J D.

Lemme see here.

It was actually before that, so I have to go back to probably

like February or something.

Dave said something else funny.

I just got a call from Google India was thinking of answering and just putting

the phone up to the PC and let them listen to John talk and blow their tiny minds.

I make a joke 'cause when I get all those calls from all the people that

are in India, they're like, we're gonna help you optimize your campaigns.

I'm like, I should send you a bill.

I know.

This one's I just don't even understand, but it's funny.

Chris Markle, how can a true Texas player use data-driven attribution

to represent the South in 2023?

A true Texas play would know the answer to that.

Chris,

I don't know what that means.

I'm, I'm too middle-aged dad.

All right, man, I don't know if I can really show this anyway.

I need to have more time, but I just wanna share with you, there was 591

conversions and 51 grand in spend.

This is year over year performance of just February.

'cause last year, February, it was on this year, February or, or March

or January, I forget what it was.

I turned it off.

But what's funny is you can see that the cost spiked up 130% here.

The conversion only spiked up 65 after I shut off everything else, which is like

downloaded product catalog, and there was a bunch of other stuff I have to

have to go into a different time range.

But the only campaign that I started counting after that

went up 141% for 130% more cost.

The account.

by using automated bidding strategies, when you're using T C P A or something

like that, or if you're using anything, that's a restricted bidding strategy.

What you're asking Google to do is not focus on the only conversion action, but

get you a cheap conversion action, get you as many as it can, regardless of what

happens to your other conversion actions.

So you're training an AI tool to look at a microversion and a macro conversion,

and you said, give me all of them.

What happens when the micro conversions get bigger at a faster

rate than the macro conversions?

You hit a point, diminishing return, your only recourse shut it off.

So I've never actually had micro conversions work better.

They've always worked worse.

The problem is, is people a lot of times will lean into micro conversions

and then get the macro conversions.

Don't really do deep dive optimizations.

Even post Google ads.

call it a win, send a fluffy report to the boss, and it's like,

you've got 120% conversion rate.

How'd you do that?

You're like, because I counted everything twice.

it's not there.

I never had good luck at micro conversions.

I've always shut 'em off.

Always did better.

Chris Markle.

Serious question.

What was the most challenging phase during sole's growth?

How big was your team at the time?

How did you overcome those challenges?

We're talking about the rooftop at T N C.

Who was the rooftop at T N C with Scott?

It was you and I and it was one other person.

I don't know if we wanna mention them, but we're looking at the future

of what we're gonna be offering as a core service, like 2018, or we were

talking about content versus P P C.

I don't remember this at all.

we were talking about what is the future of solutions?

This is back when we did everything full funnel.

Yeah, yeah.

Before we niched down to Google.

And I think that was probably the toughest part for me was we did everything.

We did websites, we did content, we did P P C, we did SS e O, we did Facebook apps.

You want your car wash?

We'll do that.

Lawn mow anything.

We'll do it.

Yeah, we'll mow your car, walk your lawn.

Probably.

We're still figuring out the time.

So we didn't have it all, all identified.

But that was the biggest thing is really niching down and becoming

a master of one was a big risk.

People want one-stop shops.

They want everyone to do everything right.

The problem is you're gonna get everything 80% right?

But where we'll eke out the additional 20% matters to big

clients that really want that.

So I think the biggest thing that we did was niching down to

something that was really specific.

That was the biggest turning point, the biggest scale to success.

'cause we got really good at one thing for anybody.

And then now I I, we have 200 clients that are in 200 different

industries and we rock it.

That means that now I'm very good at this tool for any other industry.

I think that if you niche down too far, you lock yourself into too much.

Like if you're just good for chiropractors, maybe that's a fail point.

'cause Covid would've closed your business.

Mm-hmm.

So that's the thinging is like the biggest, biggest point was

niching down enough that the market didn't reduce in size too much,

but we can focus on something that allows to expand back into that.

I think that was probably the biggest, like the hardest thing

to do is like, what do we do?

It's funny because I fought you on, niching down for about a year.

Do you remember?

You said something to me, it still, I take a thousand dollars to yell these people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That, that was the line.

We, we had a vendor that did our Google ads.

We weren't doing it in-house.

we'll call 'em Acme Bros.

me and John were just talking about, you know, various

opportunities and everything else.

You know, if we got a website, we actually were doing the website

management, not the build per se, but it, there was a lot of work on that.

S e o there was a lot of work on graphic design, content, social, and then for

P P C, we just sent it to Acme Bros.

And you, you finally like, 'cause I was like, well bro, like, you know,

website's a hundred grand and P P C is a thousand dollars a month.

And you're like, I'll take a thousand dollars a month to at Acme Bros.

And that's what we were doing.

We would take a thousand bucks a month and then just those guys would do the work and

then we'd say, fix this, make this better.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was just like, we basically just, you know, arbitraged it.

Yeah.

We would've grown forever with those guys.

The problem was, is we just had difference of opinion in, I think, the future of the

companies difference of values, maybe.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I try not to screw over my friends.

Yeah.

Oh, well.

So that's the thing is it was, it was a, yeah, it was basically just

what could we scale, take a profit, do minimum amount of work, and then

we kinda got thrown into where it's like, Nope, we had to do it ourselves.

And we got really, that was the, that was the hardest part for me is that's true.

We, we were reliant on one vendor.

We had one vendor that was literally doing everything, and they fired

us, and we had 30 days, we had 30 days to build an entire Google ads

agency in-house from the ground up.

I think that was the most stressful period in this phase

of my entrepreneurial career.

oh eight collapse is a whole different thing.

if I was smarter, we would've been diversified with vendors.

We would've had two or three.

That way, you're saying with the niche, if, if you're only serving

chiropractors, covid kills your business.

if all your eggs are in one vendor basket and that vendor decides to

blow up, go outta business, get too big, fire you, you're screwed.

Yeah.

It's like the niche or the vendor.

I mean, everything, what we should have learned as well,

diversification across the board, but also that was the hardest thing.

Yeah, for sure.

it was picking down a niche and then having the supplier of that niche go away.

It's almost like being Walmart and the great value factories, like no more.

Yeah.

Well, no, it was a single point of failure, but, but I think

that the, the key to our success without question was niching down.

There's like 14 years of like answers here, so Yeah.

There's a lot.

That was your idea.

Which it pains me how hard I fought against it and how Right.

You were.

So let me just say that out loud publicly.

Thank you.

it was a team effort.

Ian Mason.

For Performance Max, what are the best practices for videos?

He can just stick the knife in and twist it.

Well, he asked this one.

I do you want me to skip the performance max questions?

'cause we, no, no.

Let's, let's keep going.

Yeah.

What are the best practices for videos?

Have you noticed certain specs for creators?

So that's the thing is Performance Max is gonna be auto targeting.

So videos are gonna go wherever they want.

My opinion is not run the videos inside of Performance Max because it gets to

choose how much ad spend is spent in the video campaign on any sort of day.

And since I usually default to non-restricted bidding strategies,

maximize conversion, maximize convert value, I don't want YouTube

to be able to just go and blast out non click attributed spend.

So I always exclude them from P max and run them separately.

Always.

This is an interesting question from John.

Using low T Row is basically kinda max conversions, right?

It almost is.

Yes.

Yeah.

Think of it though.

I want this, this is the scenario.

Low T Row has works center shopping.

You wake up one day and all of the obvious bad search terms, you

didn't get bids on, like a little assistant went in negative keyword.

Those things and all of the best performing products have

the most amount of spend.

That's all low T ROAS does.

It's like an assistant.

You don't show up for anything stupid.

And most of the spend is going to what is working the most, like

the, it's a Pareto rule automated.

It's an 80% efficiency on 20% of what is working best.

that's really a low t roas.

It's all does.

So we we're being trolled.

Ooh.

Who do you think this is, John?

It's either, it's Glen.

Glen.

Yeah.

Either Glenn, Yusef, Caden.

So here's the thing, Glen's not sloppy enough to mess up.

John's Moran's dog, John's Moran.

That's you.

that's Osama.

Osama.

I'm calling you out there.

Osama's Grandma's the worst of anybody.

He sends me emails and I'm just like, you have a doctorate.

Like, how did you get through school?

it, Osama.

I love you man.

But you kind of write emails like a text.

It's like, okay.

I'm like, no, I went to a client.

Just kidding.

Yeah.

what is the minimum of conversion for Performance Max to work?

I'm thinking of excluding brand from P Max, but then

conversion will drop a lot of it.

I hope this isn't anybody from our team actually.

'cause excluding brand from P Max doesn't do anything.

So here's, here's what I would say.

I have a video two weeks ago or three weeks ago, or maybe four

weeks ago, I don't remember.

I excluded brand from all P Max campaign.

The cold traffic split between warm and cold.

So like 10,000 visits, 6,000 are new.

The new visits ratio only went up 4%.

My C P C dropped, which means I got more YouTube discovery display and G S

P P L A traffic from the same audience.

All I did was shut off two networks.

Out of the six available networks of people are gonna

show up on the brand name.

Google didn't just say, dang, my audience can't Google me anymore.

I better change audiences.

No, it just said, all right, stop spending there on Bob and spend on there on Bob.

So the cold traffic didn't fluctuate.

So I don't, I don't, I actually would rather show up for brand because now

my smart or my standard shopping has a place for those people to return.

Larry, Hello.

When it comes to adding negative keywords, do you use a tool or curious your best

practices when adding negative keywords?

I realize it'll depend on the campaign goals.

I don't use a tool.

I always will run them manually.

That's one thing that is good about t roas not messing things up.

Uh, Low T ROAS is not messing that up for me.

I'll give you a small use case of low T roas.

So I have a campaign that I spend a hefty amount of daily aspen on per day.

This one right here, I spend $10,398.

I am getting, let's do the last seven days here.