Life doesn’t always feel calm — and for overthinkers, it can feel like your mind is running a marathon you never signed up for. In this episode, Klaudia sits down with Dr. Claire Hayes, clinical psychologist and author (including How to Cope), to talk honestly about overthinking, emotional resilience, and why “thinking positive” isn’t always the most helpful approach.

This is a conversation about learning to welcome difficult emotions instead of suppressing them, separating thoughts from feelings and actions, and using Claire’s practical ABC coping statement (“I feel… because I think… but I choose…”) to step out of spirals and back into choice.

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Hello happiness seekers. Welcome to the Happiness Challenge podcast. I'm Claudia Mitura and I'm on a mission to explore the best happiness hacks that science has on offer.

Like so many others, the pandemic cut me off from my family and work. So I decided to use my training as a psychologist to discover what science can tell us about the art of happiness.

What I found set me on the path to joy, and now I'm ready to share my journey with you.

Each month I'm publishing three linked episodes where I'm speaking to a leading expert, putting their tips to the test and sharing my findings and feelings.

From mindfulness to exercise and random acts of kindness, I'll be sharing a light on the simple happiness habits that can bring more joy to our lives.

What's very exciting, you can Also now find 26 science backed principles on how to create more happiness at work, in relationships and in your own skin in my new book, the Alphabet of Happiness. So join me as I embark on my challenge and together we can become more successful, resilient and happy.

Hello happiness seekers. Welcome to this month's Happiness Challenge. We are are learning how to manage overthinking for greater happiness and resilience.

I'm thrilled, absolutely thrilled, to be joined by Dr. Claire Hayes, clinical psychologist, author and creator of five books, including my favorite, how to Cope. Claire is passionate about helping people understand and embrace their emotions rather than pushing them away.

And she brings a wealth of expertise in teaching, teaching practical tools for everyday well being.

So whether you are someone who tends to overthink or you are just looking for new ways to cope with life's ups and downs, this episode is absolutely for you to find that calm, clarity and happiness. So let's dive in. Welcome Claire.

Thank you very much, Claudia. And thank you for inviting me to join in on your podcast. It's a huge honor and I'm delighted too.

Thank you so much Claire. And as I said, I loved your book how to Cope because it's really challenge my mindset but it's also so practical.

So really starting with this idea that you encourage readers to welcome distressing feelings rather than suppressing them. And it is interesting because actually from very early age maybe that's not what we've been encouraged to do when it comes to those emotions.

So how can this mindset help us to actually manage overthinking in our daily lives?

It's a really great question, Claudia. And I teach what I need to learn and I practice what I teach. So I'm coming from a very much experiential basis here.

I suppose to give your question some context, when I read Bridget Jones Diary actually before I read it, so many of my friends, including one of my family members actually said I've just read a great book and I thought of you. So when I read it and when I saw the movie I thought, oh that is so sad.

And one of the things in it that definitely I can resonate with and relate to is the number of self help books that Bridget Jones had and they wouldn't be a patch on how many I have. And I remember a number of years ago, before I wrote how to Cope, being in a huge bookstore somewhere in Europe, massive.

And I went in and I couldn't find the self help books. So just like an addict needing their fix, I thought they have to be here.

So I went up onto the second floor, up the stairs and I asked can you tell me where the self help books are please? And the guy said self help? Oh, you mean Life Enhancement Books? And I said yes. And he said they're in there, the ground floor.

And I said where in the ground floor? And he said no, they're the ground floor. So I remember looking down so many books, they couldn't all be in quote self help books.

So I went downstairs and I started to look and I felt totally overwhelmed And I looked at them and a new thought popped into my head and I thought if I stay here for the rest of my life, assuming I'm going to live for another 90 plus years and I do nothing else except read these books, will I feel happy at the end?

And I thought I won't because they're selling happiness, they're promising happiness, but reading one and then coming to the end and going but I don't feel happy and then I need to go and get another one. Or yes, I feel happy for a few moments, but I need another and I need another.

And I really began to question the whole self help industry in terms of creating are certainly fostering a need for people to feel happy. So that's where how to cope started. Because I thought what if we didn't? What if we allowed ourselves feel however we feel.

And in my work as a clinical psychologist, one of the questions I ask people is what would you like to get from working with me? And more often than not people say I want to feel happy, I want to feel better, I want to feel relaxed.

And then I explained that I don't have the power to do that and it's not appropriate. And in my work often people Might feel worse rather than better initially.

And it's not I don't care how people feel sometimes I've said that, but it's not I don't care. I care about people, but I don't focus on how they feel. So I developed a very simple, clear three step approach that I know you've read.

It's in how to cope and on how to separate out our thoughts from our feelings from our actions. Very much using cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT skills and tools. My background in before I did psychology was as a primary school teacher.

So when I came across CBT first I had just started psychology and I was really struck by I'd never heard of this, how come I hadn't heard of it? The ideas are very simple, they're very practical, they're evidence based.

And then as a teacher I thought why don't we teach the basic principles of cbt? So that's what how to cope is about.

Yeah, wonderful.

And I think I really resonate with this idea that okay, we think we can get all those tools and as you said there's so many different books written about it and now with social media, online courses, elearning, you could learn anything you want. But ultimately is it right for us and how we going to apply it? And interesting that your starting point is actually I'm not necessary.

It's about getting that happiness. But how am I feeling right now? What's in me in this moment in time?

And you already mentioned those practical tools so specifically in how to cope you talking about coping triangle and coping sentences techniques which are really practical. Could you share how these tools can be used in the moment when we notice ourselves spiraling into those unhelpful thoughts?

So there are three steps in how I explain this and the coping triangle term.

I originally called it the cognitive behavioral coping framework which is mouthful and my first book which is stress relief for teachers, the coping triangle. The editors didn't want to call it the cognitive behavioral coping framework. So we come up with coping triangle which I really like.

So the triangle is deliberately inverted with the thoughts at the top left, feelings top right and then action at the bottom. So I encourage people to think of whatever it is that's causing them pressure.

So it might be exams, it could be an illness, it could be family, it could be life can be very specific or it can be brought and putting that in the center of the triangle and then catching what am I thinking about it, how am I feeling? What am I doing? And sometimes I might start with actions, sometimes I Might start with feelings. Sometimes I might start with the thoughts.

So you mentioned people who overthink. Take that as an example. So we're working with someone who's overthinking. So we put the overthinking in the bottom.

My guess is somebody would start with the action. They notice they're overthinking, they're thinking and thinking, and then they have other thoughts. I'm overthinking. Why am I thinking about this?

I shouldn't be thinking about this. I wish I could stop thinking about this. I'm glad nobody else knows what I'm thinking. Oh, I'm not going to think anymore. But, ah.

And why am I like this? So they have all of those thoughts. Then they're feeling frustrated, annoyed, upset, embarrassed, maybe ashamed, guilty. Different than action.

What are they doing? So they're noticing.

They're probably judging themselves harshly, blaming themselves, wishing they weren't overthinking, comparing themselves to other people, how they think other people are. And we don't know what's in anyone else's head, but we assume they're not thinking as we are. So we compare ourselves unfavorably. Might do.

Watching scary movies in their head of the future. If I keep thinking like this, I'm not going to sleep tonight.

And if I don't sleep tonight, then I'm going to be tired in the morning, and then I'm not going to. And. And. And we might replay movies in our head. Why am I still thinking like this? Like I this happened to me two days ago.

And because of this, we might bottle up our feelings as in action. We might pretend everyone else were great, and then we might have these thoughts. You're such a fraud.

Nobody else is fooled by this, so that can be the pattern. We might talk about it as well, actually, as an action.

So we might talk to people saying, I just can't sleep because I just keep thinking and I just keep thinking, and I don't know how to stop thinking.

And I keep reading these books to stop thinking, and I keep listening to podcasts and I keep reading, doing meditation, but I just can't stop thinking. So that's the triangle. Catch what we're thinking, how we're feeling, what we're doing as a first step.

Sometimes doing that, people tell me they feel better straight away. There's my thoughts, there's my feelings, there's my actions.

Sometimes people tell me they feel worse because they feel maybe embarrassed or overwhelmed. And it's like facing what's going on can be hard, and then Sometimes people tell me, claire, I don't feel any different.

They think this isn't going to work anyway. So as I said, my focus is not to get people to feel better.

And I often say the treatment for cancer chemotherapy does not make people feel better initially. It actually makes them feel worse. So this whole area when we're looking at what's going on can make us feel worse. So that's the first step.

If that's all we did, that would not be helpful because it would just leave us feeling worse probably, certainly me.

So I think like with this triangle, it's in itself useful, as you say, to maybe analyze those specifics, aspects and even be aware that's what we're thinking when you were mentioning all of those different aspects that we overthinking one thing A but then actually we have all of those and then shame and their guilt and comparison that happens on top. It's actually useful to understand that. So as you said, that's your first step. And then what happens after that?

Okay, well then we have three steps. So then step two are four questions. So question one is looking back at our feelings.

So we're overthinking, we're thinking about overthinking, we're worrying about overthinking, we're upset about overthinking. So we're feeling upset, embarrassed, shamed, frustrated and so on. So question one is, do our feelings make sense?

Not if they're good, bad, positive, negative. Literally do they make sense? And sometimes people would say to me, no, because I shouldn't be overthinking.

Okay, but if we put our hand in the fire, we will feel pain. The action of putting our hand in the fire probably does not make sense, but the feeling of pain does.

So if we have lots of judgmental, harsh, upsetting thoughts, then we're going to feel upset and judged and ashamed. So I see our feelings like a little three year old child who responds exactly to what adults say.

So if we're the little three year old child beside us right now, and I said, oh Claudia, she's gorgeous and you said, oh no she's not.

And she's such a nuisance and she can't even brush her teeth properly and you started to, I know you wouldn't, but you started to complain about her, the little girl would feel ashamed, embarrassed, judged. So if we said to a little boy, you're gorgeous.

Oh, but he can't play football properly or oh, but he's just too much of a baby or whatever it is, he will then believe that a 13 year old might say don't take your bad humor out on me, please. But a three year old would believe it.

So when we think so with anxiety, anxious thoughts, if we think there's danger, that thought actually is so powerful and can set off our fight flight response. So if we think there's somebody going to harm us, we feel anxious.

If we think we've got into trouble, we have messed up, other people are judging us, we can feel upset, worried, embarrassed.

So if we're thinking thoughts like why am I thinking like this, I'm overthinking, I shouldn't and all of that then logically, and it's completely logical, logically it makes sense that we're going to feel upset, embarrassed and however, that's a great,.

I think like a checkpoint as you said, rather than thinking about our emotions, challenging, negative, it's very much thinking does this make sense?

And as you rightly pointing out, the majority of cases, yeah, it does make sense, of course because if someone else would have said that to me, yes, of course I would feel that specific aspect and I'll definitely feel that emotion. So the second step, does this make sense? Okay, what happens next?

Okay, just to finish on that one. So yes, our feelings make sense based on the reality.

So, so if somebody has experienced a bereavement, of course we're going to feel sad and people understand that.

But if somebody thinks they feel really bad because they forgot to send somebody a card for their birthday and then they start thinking I'm the worst person in the world, we could say for goodness sake, doesn't matter. But if they're thinking all of those thoughts, it makes sense they're going to feel bad. So do our feelings make sense? Yes, they do.

But my really key learning or one of them is that we cannot trust our feelings. I certainly cannot trust mine. So just because I feel anxious does not mean there's danger. It might mean I just think there's danger.

Just because I feel guilty and worried and upset because I think I've made a mistake or I'm getting into trouble doesn't actually mean that I am. So we acknowledge our feelings. Do our feelings make sense? And that's it.

We don't analyze them, we don't go into the positive, negative, literally, they make sense. So question two is about our thoughts. Are our thoughts helpful or unhelpful? Not positive or negative? And I really feel very strongly about this.

I think there's too much pressure on all of us to think positively.

And the example I often Use is if you're in an airplane and the door falls off and we're up in the sky, a positive thought is, oh, great, we're getting some fresh air in. Not helpful. So a lot of the in quotes, negative thoughts might actually be more helpful than the in quotes positive thoughts.

And there's a lot of science behind this.

And Professor Martin Seligman is a clinical psychologist in the States and he talks about learned helplessness and also about, we can't pour happiness into people. It comes from us in terms of negotiating and learning, surviving with life's challenges. So are our thoughts helpful?

And practically, I won't say all of the thoughts I have, but a lot of the thoughts I have actually aren't helpful. So why am I thinking like this? That's a question thought. If I have a question thought, why did my phone ring? Because I didn't turn it off. I'm silent.

Okay, lesson learned. Hopefully I'll remember that again. But if I'm thinking, why did I do this? Why did I do this?

Then they're not helpful question thoughts because I mightn't have an answer. And they're also reinforcing and making me feel worse. I should have, I must, I need to, I can't.

All of those thoughts aren't helpful because they're triggering me to feel or you or anyone else to feel a certain way. And then we might have a thought that seems very helpful because it's in quotes, positive, oh, I managed that, or I stopped thinking about that.

But if there isn't a full stop, if there's another thought that sneaks in going, but you're not going to be able to do that again, or but that was a fluke, or but that really wasn't a big deal, then the first thought, even though it seems helpful, isn't. So question two, are our thoughts helpful or unhelpful? Question three is what do we believe? And this is the whole area of core beliefs.

And this is where our thoughts, the meaning of our thoughts, the impact come from. So these are beliefs that we get when we're very little. 3, 4, 5 Is a key age and oftentimes we don't know they're there.

So if somebody's overthinking and worrying about overthinking, I might say, what is so bad about overthinking? And then we do Socratic questioning, downward arrow, spiral. I shouldn't be overthinking. What is so bad about overthinking?

When you think you shouldn't be, everybody else doesn't do this, and we go down and down, and then we reach rock bottom, which is something around, I'm not okay, or I'm not as good as everyone else, or everyone else is better than me, or I'm not good enough or something that's really core black and white. And those beliefs are influencing everything. So what is so bad about not doing well in an exam? But deep down, we do. What's bad about that?

What's so bad about that? And then I'm a failure, or whatever the core belief is.

And core beliefs are really interesting because a lot of times, as I said, we don't know we have them, so it's hard to change them. We can't just suddenly say, oh, that's, that's not true. Because it's like we practiced for so many years to prove her right.

So a story I've made up many years ago to explain this. If I believe people, traffic wardens, people who put tickets and cars or clamp cars are terrible people. They're really nasty.

I'm looking for them to prove I'm right. I want proof, my evidence, my bias. I have to be right. So we head into a city somewhere and I say, look at that traffic warden. Look at that person.

Look at that. They're horrible. They're nasty. And Claudia, you say, clare, they're not all like that. Here's two coming towards us, and they're laughing.

I immediately twist what you've said to fit in with my belief. So I say, yes, they're laughing, but they're after giving three people tickets. They're terrible. They're even worse than I thought they were.

So with core beliefs, it's really difficult to change what we believe or help that somebody else change. So what I do is put a maybe so we know people believed the world was flat. It's not.

Some people apparently still believe that people believed the Titanic would not sink. And as a result of that belief, tragically many people died. So somebody might believe their entire future depends on them getting a certain job.

Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't. Maybe there's learning opportunities. So literally just putting in a maybe. And then question four.

And the reason I have the arrow focused on the action piece is the triangle. It's like an action. Question four is, are actions helpful or unhelpful? And this is really where we have control over.

We don't over our feelings or thoughts or our beliefs, but we do over our actions. So overthinking. Is that helpful? No, but it's a Habit, it's a pattern it's hard to break. Worrying about overthinking, is that helpful? No.

Blaming ourselves for overthinking, is that helpful? No. Comparing ourselves and all of that. So a lot of the actions are probably unhelpful.

But then there are other actions we do that we dismiss, we don't even see that are helpful, like getting up in the morning, brushing our teeth, taking care of ourselves, being able to do whatever it is even with the overthinking going on. So that's step two. Claudia, question one, do our feelings make sense? Two, are our thoughts helpful? Three, what do we believe?

Because that might not be true. And four, are actions helpful or unhelpful?

And I guess in there by understanding that, as you said, I can then start make more conscious choices of okay, so what now? I understand this, I'm aware of this. And the awareness is always the key what's happened now.

And I guess that's where your coping sentences come into play, which I found very useful because they have very powerful word in I choose. So would you mind telling us more about these?

I would love to. And since I wrote how to Cope, the coping sentence has developed into the ABC coping sentence. So A is acknowledge.

I feel so I feel tired, I feel upset, I feel frustrated, I feel angry, I feel guilty not saying I don't, I do. Acknowledging our feelings. And then B is because. So I feel frustrated because I think this overthinking is driving me bananas.

I feel unhappy because I think not managing well enough. And it's I usually put I think in brackets because it's not always a thought that makes us feel a certain way.

And the example I often use, Claudia, if I was beside you in person right now and I stood on your toe, you would feel pain not because you thought I stood on your toe, but because I did.

What if I suggest to you that for your dinner this evening you're going to pour some milk into coffee tea and the milk is sour and you're going to drink it anyway. My suggesting that might immediately now make you feel a little bit nauseous in your tummy or a little bit.

So a lot of the time it's our own thoughts that make us feel a certain way. So I feel upset because I think I made a mistake or I think I should have remembered to send the card or whatever it is.

So A, acknowledge B, because and then absolutely as you said, magic word C for choose not I have to, I must or should. If we go to an airport to get on an Airplane. We have a few jobs to do before we get there to pay for our flight. Choose where to go and so on.

Get through security, get to the right gate, get on the plane, put our luggage away, sit down, put our seatbelt on. That's our jobs. Our job is not to fly the plane. Someone else is paid to do that. So if we have in our head, I have to, I must, I should, I need to.

I can't. I'll try. All of those thoughts are flying us in a certain direction. If we think I choose, we go in a different direction.

And we don't need to know how we're going to get there. So I feel upset because I think whatever, but I choose to. And for many years the one I had was But I'll cope, hence the title. I had to cope.

If we were in a room and the ceiling fell down, we'd either be killed or we'd cope. And then that puts how would we cope? What would we do? But over the years, I've developed many others. Others have popped into my mind.

So I choose to breathe slowly. Is really powerful. And if we do a quick practice of that one. Claudia, if it's okay.

So if you tighten your non dominant hand into a fist, hold your breath and breathe out. As you open your fist. As you breathe out. Perfect. We'll do it twice. More. So tight. And breathe in. Hold your breath, two, three. And then breathe out.

Good. And then once more. Tighten, breathe in. Hold your breath. Two, three. And breathe out. Lovely.

Now we'll do it three more times and I'd like you to think a helpful thought. And I'll tell you what it is. So tighten. Breathe in. I choose to breathe slowly. Hold two, three. And breathing out. Great. Again breathing in.

Thinking I choose to breathe slowly. Hold two, three. And breathing out. And then once more. Tightening, breathing in. I choose to breathe slowly. Hold two, three and breathing out. Perfect.

Did you notice a difference in the quality of your breathing from the first set of three to the second?

Yeah, absolutely. So the second time I definitely breathe more slowly because I needed to concentrate. I need to say that.

And therefore I was more intentional about my breath.

Yes. And then the I choose to breathe slowly is giving our body the order or whatever it is to the permission to breathe slowly.

So I choose to breathe slowly. I choose to be kind to myself is really important, particularly with the overthinking. I feel annoyed at myself because I think whatever.

But I choose to be kind to myself. I choose to give myself every chance. I really like that one. When I think that it's getting me to eat better, sleep better, exercise better.

I choose to act in a helpful way.

The moments when I mess up and I feel really bad because I think I shouldn't have done that or I should have done this, I, I feel upset because I think I shouldn't have done this. But I choose to learn from this.

And that I choose to learn from this straightaway catapults me out of my feeling really annoyed at myself and making it worse into okay, what can I learn from this? The same with I choose to act in a helpful way. I choose to ask, forget, take, use, help. There's an infinite number, Claudia. So there's.

So that's the structure that, and I.

Think it's a great structure.

And this idea is that as you said, there might be infinitive numbers of those statements, but they based on a freedom choice that I can make and on very helpful way of reacting to situations and we can again choose ones that really sit with us.

So for me, definitely the one when you say I choose to breathe slowly is wonderful because it really applies in lots of different situations and it at any situation, in any situations, I am me. Breathing slowly is always beneficial no matter what's happening and then I can take it from there.

So I think really as an action for our listeners to choose some sentences that really resonates with you to have at the go when your brain doesn't have to be thinking oh, I should be doing something helpful. Wait a sec. What is it? What is it? It's okay, I'm going to use this statement and choose my specific action.

Now the final bit that I want to ask is about those core beliefs because as you said, the thoughts, emotions, my statements, they can change and of course they change quite a lot when we think about our overthinking and emotions. But what about those core beliefs?

I guess my question here is once I identify that I'm having certain beliefs, very big self beliefs like I'm not good enough or I don't deserve this and they are fueling my overthinking, then what is one small step that I can take to transform those core beliefs? Because they're much more stubborn to change.

Yes, it's a great question. I think we just come back with maybe, but maybe that's not true.

And then we focus on evidence to say so somebody might believe if they have an eating disorder, they have no control, so they just can't, they're an addict in whatever way. And then maybe that's not true. So then focusing on something, oh, I have just been able to say no to a packet of crisps or whatever it happens to be.

Oh, now that's not going to disprove because the thoughts will go, but that doesn't count. But, but, but so literally being aware of it and going, okay, I believe that, I think understanding maybe a little bit more.

If you think of a three year old child playing in the kitchen and her mother comes in and says, stop making so much noise, you are giving me a headache. And the mum goes upstairs to bed, has a brain haemorrhage, dies, what's a likely core belief that child might have? What would you think?

Oh my goodness. I would definitely think that I caused it because it's a simplification of understanding of, of how was my mother health and what was happening.

But that moment is associated with that specific, very traumatic outcome.

Absolutely. So I see it like a computer virus. So it's my fault. There could be also, if I make loud noise, bad things happen. Could be that too, or other ones.

So think of that child growing up and as an adult, age 28, walking down a busy street, sees a car, looks over, thinks, that's a nice car, I like that. Keeps walking, seconds later, hears a crash, looks around the car the person has just looked at has crashed into a bus.

An immediate automatic thought, that's my fault.

And we'd say, of course it's not, it is because I looked over, I distracted the driver, he wasn't paying attention because he looked over, he thought he knew me, it's my fault. So it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. So recognizing that, ah, that's my core belief again, then we can put in the maybe.

And then also realizing that when we're children, we learn ways of being in the world that works. So some of us might take on being the pleaser or the clown, or we avoid or we look after everybody else or the helper, whatever it is.

But when we're older, it backfires.

So this is where absolutely we all want to feel happy, but there's a warning, I think attached to it, because if we feel happy by doing things that aren't helpful, that's dangerous. And helping can be just as dangerous as something else because we'll only feel better if we're helping or somebody else is happy. So.

So a quote I remember reading many years ago I love is when you see someone else unhappy, breathe, you're not responsible for their happiness. I'm giving them space. So I think the whole area of happiness is wonderful.

We have moments of happiness, but if we hang on to them, then we start to worry and we think and we compare and we're not as happy as we were.

So if we allow ourselves to feel unhappy, if we're feeling unhappy or, or miserable, if we're feeling miserable, bizarrely and wonderfully happiness appears.

Yeah, it's a little bit. I always think about happiness in that respect when it comes to sleep, the more you're trying to get to sleep, you're not going to sleep.

And I think this is very similar when it comes to happiness, the more we try to re engineer those things, they don't work. Even though happiness is a formation of habits, but they have to be very useful and helpful habits.

And I love this idea of that maybe because maybe as a word opened up a poor opportunity and make us curious to say, okay, let me maybe find an evidence that maybe I can do it.

Yes.

Even though I couldn't in the past. Claire, this has been amazing and thank you so much for sharing with me and my listeners your knowledge.

As I mentioned, I do really love your book how to Cope. I think it's really practical and really helped me with my own and overthinking.

My really final question to you because this is a thought of happiness and I would love to know what makes you happy.

Oh, it's a great question too and actually it's lovely because as a question it focuses me on what makes me happy.

So the likelihood is I'm going to see more of those moments, I'm going to experience more of them because a lot of times we're focused on what makes somebody unhappy, what makes people so miserable, what's going wrong. So for me personally, I love being with children, I've always have done.

I love playing with them, I love chatting, I love just their whole interaction. Maybe I just haven't grown up at all myself. So I love that.

I love being in nature something as simple as like actually I said I teach what I need to learn.

I was in Delgatessen the other day buying something for my lunch and a packet of crisps was practically jumping up and down on the shelf wanting me to buy it, to eat it. And I just asked myself, is it good for me right now? I ask myself yes, no questions.

I don't trust my feelings, but I trust my instinct and my instinct is yes. Asking myself a question, the answer is yes or no. And I ask myself, are those crisps good for me right now? No. And I said am I going to buy them? No.

And I felt so happy in myself that I had said no as opposed to feeling deprived because I really wanted them so I enjoyed that as a moment and I often encourage people to write this sentence every night and to complete it.

The thing I did today that I am most proud of is and it could be the thing that caught me by surprise that made me feel happy is but catching those so moments of happiness relief is when I know I didn't end up into trouble because my own core belief around don't get into trouble that I go maybe I didn't sharing teaching I love teaching Claudia I absolutely love it I love the opportunity of sharing some ideas that practical that work so your invitation absolutely made me feel happy and this conversation thank you.

Thank you so much and that makes me happy that you very much were able to come and share your insights because they are very powerful so thank you so much Claire.

My pleasure.