Osha Gray Davidson, author of 'The Best of Enemies' and host of the American Project podcast, shares more about the unlikely friendship of Ann Atwater, a committed civil rights activist, and C.P. Ellis, a leader in Durham's Ku Klux Klan chapter.
0:00 Episode starts
0:43 Personal check-ins start
2:19 Jes talks about her birthday and loving the process of getting older and her son deciding to go to Florida Atlantic
6:10 Rob talks about enrolling his son in preschool and how all of his kids will be in school
9:16 Osha Gray Davidson joins the conversation
10:15 Rob introduces Osha
11:45 Rob asks about Osha and what inspired him to tell the story in Best of Enemies
12:46 Osha talks about a big motivation for telling the story of Ann and CP was how little he knew about race
16:21 Jes asks what characteristics about both Ann and CP he admires
16:39 Osha talks about Ann’s resilience, her increased capacity to fight, and her core principles of progress
19:13 Osha talks about CP’s capacity to change
21:45 Rob introduces a theme of the season of “fusion friendships”
21:58 Rob asks how we apply lessons from Ann and CP’s relationship and how to form similar relationships
22:50 Osha answers that we need to hold fast to principles while not dehumanizing people and also recognizing that everyone has capacity to change
26:01 Osha talks about an experience where he saw a glimpse of being dehumanized as a Jew in the Midwest
29:22 Jes asks why he chose to frame the story with such an emphasis on Durham
29:45 Osha talks about how their relationship couldn’t and wouldn't have been possible if it wasn’t for the circumstances in Durham
32:53 Rob asks about the quote “race and class as the siamese twins of the south” and asks Osha to unpack that concept and how he saw that place out 50 years ago and now
34:05 Osha talks about learning how class-based solutions won’t solve race-based problems
38:35 Interlude
42:21 Jes asks about the American Project and his why
45:01 Osha talks about a shift in mindset for needing to address solutions, specifically when it came to reparations
47:26 Osha talks about Patrick Henry encouraging the end of slavery
54:36 Rob asks about a show-up moment
54:48 Osha encourages white people to educate themselves then align themselves with movement for justice
59:17 Osah signs off the conversation
59:50 Jes talks about change, Ann being an agent of change and CP recognizing his ability to change
1:01:48 Rob shares his reflection about Ann’s towering presence, how she never compromised truth and loved at the same time
1:04:19 Conversation ends
1:04:22 Outro
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