In the latest weekly news and podcast after-show (sponsored by YouGov), we discuss the future of the Saudi Arabian esports and gaming scene following the Next World Forum, GTA VI being leaked, the VALORANT Champions skin bundle generating $32 million, and so much more!

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This is the business of esports weekly news show slash post

podcast live stream. I am Paul the profit that will leave you

I'm joined today by my friend and co host The Honorable Judge

Jimmy burrata, for those of you who are new here welcome. What

we do is we cover the most pressing gaming and esports

topics and news of the week. But we look at all of it through a

business and C suite lens, we dissect we analyze the business

implications of everything happening in this industry. And

best of all, we get to do it live with you guys. You get to

ask questions get in our faces. I know this is not our usual

time. I'm sorry for those who are tuning in. Or maybe you're

missing this because you want you tuned in at our usual

Wednesday 2:30pm Eastern slot. We had major technical issues.

Unfortunately, we couldn't go live at that time. So we're

recording this show for anyone who's here live welcome. But I

assume many, many, many of you are going to be watching this

after the fact. And again, apologies, we are not changing

the time of the show. It is always going to be Wednesday at

2:30pm Eastern time for now. But we did have technical problems

this week. And we apologize to all of our listeners and our

viewers Jimmy How you doing?

Good, good. Paul, we're right out of my mouth, you

know, sorry, to the to the guys that regularly tune in live to

chat with us. But for the 10s and 10s of 1000s of you don't

listen offline throughout the week, it's literally no

different. So we'll get through some great stories here. And

there like what, let's go.

i It's also just because this was such a big news

week, like there's so much that has happened so much drama, like

so much like juicy lot of juicy news for sure. For the show that

I felt terrible letting that go to waste.

I'm kind of sick of it. Honestly, Paul, like I

must have gotten eight different stories in my inbox about the

GTA six leak. And by the end of the day, I was like this is all

news to me. I woke up at five for some reason that morning.

And it was the only thing flooding my inbox and so we

don't need to talk about any of that stuff. It's been. That's

that's all the point.

We're not going to talk about that stuff. What are we

doing here? I don't know. How's your day? By the way, cod beta

out? Did you try it yet?

I haven't played it. I've just been religiously

watching clips and other people's opinions of it. And the

third person game mode, for example, looks pretty

interesting. And I also liked that they limited that game

mode. So only you're only playing in third person mode

with other people playing in third person. You can't switch

between the two. But with other first person players,

it is weird. It is weird to see cod in that

definitely weird

but right like if I spend $20 on a skin I want to

see the skin you know that's a great argument for enabling

third person mode.

We do have article and one article this

week on skins which I'm going to get to and we aren't we are

going to talk about GTA six. Because we have to, because I

sort of feel vindicated by the whole thing when we had Strauss

Zelnick on the podcast. And it's been a long time now. It's been

maybe two years since he was on the show. I gave him the

opportunity to announce the GTA six on the podcast, I gave them

that chance. And had they just announced it on the podcast,

this leak would have been an nothing burger, right? Like it

would have been, it wouldn't have mattered it wouldn't even

have made the news because everyone would have been like,

well, he already announced it on business of esports. So I hate

to say I told you so but I kind of it's kind of one of those I

told you so moments, if only it announced it on the show.

For anyone else with a marketing campaign. You

know, we are always always happy to work with you and rarely

wrong over here.

Let's talk about what's on the podcast this week,

which if you're watching if you're here live, you've

probably already seen the podcast episode this week. It's

already out and it was my interview at next World Forum

with His Royal Highness Prince Faisal, who is the president of

the Saudi Esports Federation and it was a really fun interview

that I did with him on his view of like Saudi Arabia and esports

in Saudi and all those kinds of good things. But I figured as a

consequence, we should start with let's start with something

relevant or related in the news, which is this week, it was

supposed to in fact, it was supposed to be announced that

next World Forum, it got delayed, but Saudi basically

announced their giant sort of country's vision or plan for

gaming and esports in the region. And basically, that's it

okay, this came directly from the crown prince from NBS

announced the plan to develop the country's gaming and esports

industry, it says aiming to create 39,000 jobs and boost GDP

by 13. Point 3 billion by 2030. So they're calling this the

national gaming and esports strategy. I'm not going to open

the PDF there's like a PDF attached to it that sort of

outline the strategy. I will say in this may be totally

coincidence, a lot of stuff borrowed by seemingly borrowed

from my own work for them may be a total coincidence. That's the

highest form of flattery, Paul, imitation is the highest form of

flattery, I am flattered by the level of imitation, both of this

show and the many of the ideas, I brought the kingdom anyway. So

20 government entities are going to be involved here 86 new

initiatives, which is a lot. And what they're saying is one of

the targets they've said is they want studios in the kingdom to

produce more than 30 games by 2030. And in fact, it says plans

to develop 30 competitive games by 2030. This is a an additional

article that I brought up just because it supports the other

one. So they want to have 30 competitive games essentially

developed in the country by 2030, which is eight years from

now, not even seven, seven years seven and change. That's a lot.

And they talk about how there'll be different areas of focus,

including tech hardware development, game production,

esports, competition, infrastructure, regulations,

education, talent, acquisition, financing, etc. So very

ambitious plan. Very cool to see this at a national level. I'm

curious Jimmy a what you thought in the news and be maybe

specifically this this one secondary article I brought up,

which is the 30 competitive games? What'd you think of that?

Yeah, you know, this is a loaded, loaded

question and topic here. And one of the great you referenced your

interview with with Prince Faisal. And one of the great

excerpts, I think, and I can't remember if we got that recorded

or not, where he had mentioned wanting to increase their GDP by

gaming by that amount in the interview, and then the

announcement came thereafter. So we kind of got a sneak peek

there, I think, into just how seriously they're thinking about

gaming, but also metrics, right, like measurable intel on what

they're doing to reach those goals, right 30 competitive

titles or increasing, you know, X many events over the course of

the year, and the spend that they were planning to do also

over the next 10 years that we've been hinting at at the

show, just because of our relationship and work in the

region. You know, I think it's absolutely necessary that if you

want to be a big player in the gaming space, no pun intended

there. But if you want to be a mega, if you want to have a seat

at that table, it's not enough to host events, it's not enough

to have people that play games and that compete at the highest

level, you need to be part of the creation, right part of the

process. Because we know from working in this industry for a

number of years now, for the last, you know, for however

long, any of us have been working here that all of these

things are different mechanisms and vehicles for attention and

revenue. But it all ties back to the underlying game. And if you

don't have a fun game, if you don't have a captivating

audience, if you don't have unique IP, then you're missing

the most important part of that puzzle. So I think if they're

going to develop 30 games by 2030 Wow, I mean, it's a lot to

chew right, I think one or two

like let's put this in context, right? Yeah.

What What will a blizzard plus a riot plus a CD Project three of

the biggest studios in the world? Like what will they

combined? Oh, throw in take two there. What will three of them

combined put out in terms of games over the next seven and a

half years? Probably not nowhere near 30 games,

and that's three or four studios combined? Right?

I remember when Riot announced valorant which was then project

a that was one of maybe 10 titles, I think that they said

that they were releasing over the next 10 years. And we still

haven't seen you know, half of those. So it's ambitious for

sure. But I would say based off my knowledge of the region and

the companies and people there they backup their talk right? I

don't know if these titles are going to be AAA, best quality,

lots of fun, you know, these are expensive things and there's no

shortage of money there. But there is a shortage of talent.

You know, we see it everywhere. And that was part that was the

most compelling part to me about the Bungie acquisition from Sony

was a billion dollars of that went to keeping the talent

happy. You can spend a lot in a lot of areas but the talent is a

is a highly competitive thing. And it's a very difficult thing.

I think. Not everyone like you Paul will was willing to move

their lives to halfway across the world no matter where in the

world that is Middle East, South America anywhere. That's a big

endeavor. So you know I had a great time there, I thought I

think that region is looking about gaming in the right lens

and has the right plan for it. But it's going to be a

challenge, I think, to recruit talent to the kingdom to build

these games. I think if they were to make one hit, however,

or two hits in the next 510 years that they've created, that

would be a mega success story. So you know, hope they get 30.

But I think I don't think you need to shoot that high to have

a win here.

Yeah, it's interesting, right? Like,

obviously, a lot of the ideas outlined in this strategy are

very familiar to me. You're really familiar. And so I, you

know, I believe in the strategy, I buy the strategy, I also

think, no question, they have commitment, they have vision,

right? They have the resources, all the big boxes usually need

to check to see something like this come to life. They've

checked those boxes. And if you look at the success of gamers,

eight, which was their eight week, like big festival in

Riyadh, I think they've proven that they can serve the local

market, no question, right? Like they can put on gaming

activations events, they can get the local population talking

about gaming, thinking about gaming going to a gaming thing.

And I think gamers eight has proved that at least they can

execute locally, right, and that it works there. I think the big

remaining question mark, for me, and I think you pointed to it

is, is there the talent there to build this grand vision, no

matter where in the world? This was, that's going to be hard,

right? If you were in China, I would say, Well, where are you

going to get all the people to, you know, to build this thing.

So I think that's definitely a challenge. And I think it's even

more subtle than that. It's you need a lot of people at the top

who understand gaming at a very subtle level, have played the

games the last 20 years of their lives, know what's going on know

what people want, know what gamers want, speak their

language, but also understand the business side of it. And if

I think of how many people there are like that in the world, I

can probably count on two hands. You know, if there's 10 people

in the world who fill that bucket, you basically have a

vision here where you probably need to get 50% of those people

to go to Saudi Arabia, maybe Money solves that problem. I

don't know if money solves that problem. It is a challenge. No

question.

I would say more likely than not, that might be

one of the few problems in this scenario that money can't solve.

Because when you're talking about expertise at that level,

that's the Tiger Woods live story all over again, where the

money doesn't change his legacy, or what it's worth to him.

Right? There has to be something more to it. It has to be

true. But they got the five out of 10, who are

willing to come for the budget? They did. Absolutely. And so

you'll need five out of the 10. Right. Like there's like I said,

there's probably 10 People at the very top who can who can

execute on a vision this big,

I'd say we've got eight out of 10 on that front.

And then And then the question becomes, you know,

if they're coming just for the bag, are they there for a year,

two years? Or do they see this through for the next 10 years?

And do they truly care about building out what is a grand

vision, that's always sort of the problem when the law is the

bag and only the bag. But again, like when you have virtually

unlimited resources, and this grand division, it's hard to bet

against. And I wouldn't be betting against obviously, I'm

not I moved here, right. Like, I'm clearly on the side of

betting that this thing comes to fruition. I just think it'll be

interesting to see if they avoid what are clearly some speed

bumps ahead. That's an ambitious plan with very aggressive

timelines, which I love. But there are speed bumps that that

maybe or maybe they're not aware of. And so it'll be interesting

to see how they navigate that and holodeck being here will for

sure be a part of this. So obviously will be interesting to

be a part of it. But I love I love I think more countries

should be doing this. Let's put it that way. I think it's silly

that that you have major economies like the US even go

right to sort of what should be the most obvious like, where's

the national strategy around gaming? Like, where is that

vision building to say, we want to make this a, you know, $2

trillion industry by 2030. The US could absolutely do that. If

there was actual conviction around it and actual leadership

around it, and there just isn't. So you have to appreciate what

Saudi Arabia and MBS I mean, there's no lack of vision there.

And no lack of big thinking to me. I don't know if you had any

other thoughts before we move on here.

We got it. We got to get him out of stores to get

through and I and I know we're people fans already know, We're

fans of that region, so to speak. So let's keep it rolling.

Let's talk about you mentioned this one. This one

was an interesting one, because the number just jumped out at me

but we were talking about skins and cod and here. The headline

valorant champions bundle raises over 32 million in revenue. So

valorant They had a bundle where they were selling skins

obviously. And as part of this, they introduced a limited time

champions bundle comprised for five different skins connected

to their champion, the champions finals, obviously, which were

happening in Turkey and 50% of the net proceeds were going to

go direct bleep two teams participating in this

championship. And some of these items were never going to go

back into the store. They sold $32 million worth of this bundle

with 16 million going to the teams I thought it was a cool

story because this is like dough does yearly you know

international whatever that whatever they call it that they

sell the Compendium or you know that they raise 10 zillion

dollars for every year for the the for TI, are you surprised

that the number here Jimmy 32 million on one bundle?

Yeah, no, I'm surprised that a lot of this

honestly 32 millions a lot, especially for a digital digital

good, right, where there's a false sense of scarcity because

they just decided to limit when it would be available. And and

when you could buy it just congrats to congrats to that

team, honestly, that created that the skins are awesome. I

think I've always liked the valorant skins. I do have a

little bit of beef with with my friends over at valorant.

Because I remember purchasing some skins in the beta that

didn't transfer over when the game was released. And I was

like, so I'm out 10 or 20 bucks or whatever. And you guys know

who you are. And I take Venmo and PayPal. But But no, these

skins are really cool. I think they look awesome. It's a ton of

money. To me, the headliner of the story is the teams are

taking 50% of that, like what a generous split, what a massive

win for anyone that that got out partake in that rev share.

Because I mean, they're going to do this every year, they're

going to do this five, six times a year now. But this is

not new again to like Dota. And ti they do this

exact thing. And this is how the prize pool for TI is so big

because they sell this bundle ahead of time. It's exactly the

same model. And I'm not even sure I think it's also a 5050

split for Dota. It may be even more than 5050. To be honest,

like it's not new. I was just I think I continue to be surprised

at the engagement with valorant. Because anecdotally it feels

like the game sort of went away, at least from a player

perspective not went away. That's that's maybe too harsh.

But it's like, anecdotally, the game doesn't feel nearly as

hyped as the numbers suggest. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I mean, there's, it's been a kind of a

down year in gaming in terms of new releases. And a lot of the

hype is really more around the content creators these days and

less around the esports orgs. And the players, there's been a

massive shift, right towards content creation. So I see what

you're saying there in terms of just certain games that don't

have a lot of hype at the moment. I think that valorant

has been chugging along in a steady pace, where we've had a

lot of different headlines over the launch of the of the league

and the different structures for which they were accepting

applications and how that would look internationally as well as

domestically. So I mean, they've been in the headlines, we've

been talking about them. But I agree with you that the

excitement over one thing or another has not felt the same.

You know, at least for me this year with all the games.

Honestly, I haven't really felt super excited about gaming since

like season three of fortnight. So maybe I'm just, you know, an

old man yelling at clouds at this point. But

this, this validates the whole converse,

things I've been saying. But also what Arnold from Genji

said, right, which is this is a fart like selling digital goods

like this seems to be a way better way of funneling revenue

and profits to teams who participate in these leagues and

making the whole the whole ecosystem more sustainable.

It's the only way that makes it worth it for the

teams. Right. And we know that a lot of the teams that we've had

on the show have been saying that I know, well, I don't want

to talk too much internally about X set. But you know, the

teams are looking for or looking to work with the publishers. And

the teams have a lot of leverage here, I think. And again, kudos

to the ones that are making it happen that are keeping the

teams happy. It's a rinse and repeat. You know, this is easy

to monetize thing. And it's an it's one of those things like

you said that can drive excitement around the game,

right? It was one of the one of the first ones that we covered

almost a year ago that said, Hey, we know that EA Sports

Business is not necessarily doing all that great. We're

redirecting that towards skins. And in game transactions. That's

kind of the point here. So the fact that they're getting teams

get a cut of that, that keeps everyone alive, that keeps

everything running smoothly. I didn't know Dota was 50%. Also,

Paul, that seemed like a lot to me. But either way is a lot.

Like I said, as long as the teams are happy, you're gonna

have a thriving ecosystem because if you don't have anyone

competing, then you just kind of have a fun game, which is a

necessary component but I think you're leaving a lot on the

table without without the second part of that. Well,

you mentioned hype, Jimmy so I think it's

important that we get to the max hype story or maybe the most

hyped game of all time story this week and that we have to

talk about the leak here. We're getting into the juicy stuff. We

have leak stuff we have drama stuff coming the leak here. GTA

six in the news and the headline 90 videos of rockstars

unreleased Grand Theft Auto six games surface online in massive

leak so more than 90 gameplay video Those of GTA six were

leaked, Rockstar confirmed the leak is real. And the user

claiming responsibility says they could leak more data soon.

So there were actual gameplay clips that were posted online.

Source code was posted assets, test builds, etc. And the hacker

reportedly also took credit for a cyber attack on Uber.

Oh, did that. Did the hacker take credit for that?

I thought Uber had suspected him of being the same hacker. I

didn't realize that I knew that there was a common thread there.

Interesting.

Supposedly, the hacker even wrote that they're

looking to negotiate a deal.

I saw that That's so dumb. So blackmail,

they want to pay the Hey, I guess. So the leaks

real? I don't need to play it here or anything like that. I'm

sure everyone has seen sort of the leaked videos or leaked

footage by now. But what do you make of this, Jimmy? And how

much do you think from a business perspective? This hurts

the game or helps the game? Like, where are you on this one?

You know, I think there are instances where this

is wrong. But in general, I think there's no such thing as

bad press. I think we were already excited for GTA six,

everyone already knew it was in development. The Sneak Peek This

is, I mean, if you measure the amount of impressions that all

these stories are getting that all of Grand Theft Auto

community is kind of receiving from from the result of this,

it's control of your brand image versus just you know, pleasing

the fans. And I think everyone's happy to know one that it's in

development confirmed because again, they also Rockstar also

said, hey, yeah, that's ours. Right. So that's nice to know.

But to if you actually watch the video looks great. You know, and

I don't know how early this development is, but it already

it already looks great. So I'm sure there's a lot of polish to

be done. There's a lot of story writing to be done a lot of

quests and testing that needs to be done. But just visually, and

aesthetically, the few little things that I watched, all

looked phenomenal. So I think this is a win. You know, this is

confirmation of the sequel to one of the most popular games

over the last 10 years and again, dominated the news this

week. So okay, so

put put your lawyer hat on, right? They catch

the guy who did the hack. Now Rockstar wants to go after the

hacker and wants to claim damages are their damages here?

Because to your point, it's like, well, this is good

publicity. The game didn't look that bad. It's like free

marketing. Can they claim any damages here?

Yeah, I mean, incredibly, incredibly hard to

monetize. Even if this were a business 1/100 The size, right,

and a game that won 100 The amount of people went 1000s, the

amount of people played, even if this were a lot smaller, I'm

saying in terms of the scope of damage, the scope of money to be

made, it's always a very hard thing to prove in a court of law

when you have speculation like this. That's why I'm saying that

the damage here is more brand. It's more brand facing it's like

what are they going to say that they sold X many fewer units,

because people knew about the game. So they were less excited

about it. All the evidence points to the contrary, that

this is increasing the height because people are seeing what

outbreak the game is realistically. And you and I

have this talk all the time. The difference between justice I

think and business are kind of confused. And I don't think this

ever even sees a courtroom. I mean, even if they caught the

guy, I don't think it ever sees a courtroom, he'd get penalized

for criminally before anything civilly were to take place. And

he's not going to have the assets to cover any any type of

civil suit anyways.

So if you're the head at Rockstar, you don't fall

for the blackmail attempt. either. You don't care if he

releases more footage or more source code or

No, I think you double down on your, on your on

your security. I think you work with the FBI to try and bring

this guy to justice. And then you let the criminal court do

its thing. But you don't need to squeeze out pennies from someone

that doesn't have it, you got all you would have made in free

press here. Interesting. I think they do want to I think they do

want to send a message for future future hackers and future

breaches of this nature, whether internal or external, where they

don't want this type of leak. So that's why you do comply with

authorities and you do whatever you can public facing to show

that this is a serious issue that you're not letting it slide

to try to act in that way as a deterrent. But it's really only

for that sake, I think I don't think there's any tangible or or

takeaway for other than that.

I mean, Jimmy, do you think that there's a

conclusion here, which says maybe Dr. disrespects sort of

method of producing games and doing marketing around games is

the way to go. So it avoids this because it sort of feels like

when you have a game any triple A game that's in development for

years call it write more than two or three years, it sort of

feels like it's an inevitable that at some point, something

will leak like you just can't control that tightly, hundreds

of developers and all kinds of, you know, assets and programmers

and code and right like at some point things will leak when you

have that big of an operation over that many years. So is the

conclusion then from a business standpoint that everyone should

just open the kimono Rockstar should never have been this

closed lipped about GTA they should have been talking Think

about it for the last two years, they should have been showing

all the milestones and updates and artwork and right like leak

it themselves and control the narrative and build hype over

two or three years rather than what they did, which was say

absolutely nothing. Literally absolutely nothing with the

understanding that maybe these leaks are now inevitable.

That's a tough one. Right? And I think it's a

case by case thing. Also, I think if you're constantly

communicating and showing off and showing what you're working

on, but maybe pushing date, you know, then you might have to

push production dates, or you have to answer more questions.

You get a cyberpunk kind of situation all over again, where

maybe doesn't live up to expectations or it gets delayed

and delayed because you're talking about it for so long. On

the other end of that spectrum, if you are tight lipped and

successful with it, you get the next baby Yoda right that no one

knew about that grow goo was so huge with the Mandalorian it was

the best kept secret. So there are big wins, I think when you

can do it successfully. And there are big failures when

you're overly communicative. I can't tell you which is the

right path and which is the wrong one. All I can say is with

regard to GTA six. This leak I think helped them if they were

talking a lot about it that it was in production. Even if we

hadn't seen gameplay it just wouldn't have gotten the hype

that this I do know in music leaks happen all the time

purposefully or not to generate hype around albums and to

generate beef right between rival labels and rappers and

musicians. But I think it's kind of a case by case basis. I don't

know if there's a blanket rule here or not,

Jimmy I'm surprised you didn't go I

thought you were gonna take that thought one step further. By the

way, super is in here. Hey super, who does a lot of our

short form content. So if you follow us on Tik Tok, the man

with the orange hat and the mustache gaming superstar in his

own right, no, with the tinfoil hat theory. Do you think

Rockstar made all of this up? Right? There's like this very,

this very cynical meme that says, maybe this is just like

Kim Kardashian sex tape leak, right? Like this is really this

was not an accident. This leak was planned. So little

different. A little different, Paul right.

Because they're talking about hackers and getting the FBI

involved. And and also claiming that Uber hack is well,

you do now can name the same thing right that

they were gonna get the FBI involved.

You were bordering on that Jessie small

at issue where I was that guy from or with the alleged hate

crime when he had hired that guy to do it to himself or

I might be I mean, this would be kind of a genius,

right?

That just rubs me the wrong way. It's so

unethical.

But kind of genius marketing. A leaked clip

gets people you know, it's titillating. It's exciting

right? Oh my god. I'm seeing something right. Yeah, yeah.

Versus just dropping like a video of gameplay footage. Yeah,

for sure. We get a lot of attention but nowhere near the

amount this got you hate this idea.

I don't like forcing those situations. They

just seem they just rubs me the wrong way. Honestly, I

understand how clever that can be and how you can use that to

your benefit. I understand that leaks like you said there they

have that a lot more to them. But I that's nothing that I

would recommend in any boardrooms that I'd be a part

of.

I think there's a 50% chance that they leaked this

on that this is all manufactured. That's that's

where I'm at on this, but maybe I'm wrong. It just seems to Burt

like he's like asking for money's that guy who hacked Uber

like I don't know just feels feels like someone scripted this

a little bit. Anyways, I don't know if you had any other

thoughts on that. That basically gets us to the end of this

week's show. Jimmy and I know it was a bit of a It was obviously

a quieter one. Because it's not our usual day in time. I will

say if you're watching this or listening to this after the fact

we will be back next week at our usual date and time, Wednesdays

2:30pm. Eastern time. Just a reminder, guys, make sure to go

follow us everywhere on YouTube on Instagram on tick tock on

LinkedIn, you name it all these platforms, we put out content

every week on YouTube. I know like half of you watched our

stuff. But don't subscribe to the channel. So make sure to

subscribe to the channel because 50% of you are not. We see the

data YouTube gives you the data gives us the data. So make sure

to go do that. Don't miss the podcast episode this week with

His Royal Highness, Prince Faisal from the Saudi esports

Federation. It was a fun interview. We're going to put

out more of these interviews. I did a half dozen of them at the

next World Forum in Saudi Arabia with all kinds of people. So

look forward to more of those coming out built we're just

going to put out more episodes than usual guys in the podcast.

So stay tuned for those. Jimmy Thank you. As always, thank you,

everyone who was here live and don't forget the most important

thing guys, the future is fun. We'll see you next week.