Learning to Thrive Beyond Pornography use was the greatest challenge of our life and marriage. It had rocked my self confidence, tainted all of the most important experiences of my life and become the most impossible challenge I had.

With this podcast or at https://www.GetToThrive.com you'll learn about the struggle, how to overcome pornography use, and where to find additional resources to begin to thrive beyond pornography with your spouse.

At some point I took a step away from all the 12 step meetings and councilors and started to figure out my own brain, to look at my issue as something that I had the answer to and I was going to figure it out. Here I share those lessons and give you the power to start your own journey free. Whether you struggle with unwanted pornography use or are the spouse or partner, whether you feel stuck or just don't know where to start, here I will teach you principles, tools and skills that you can use today to change how you think and, in the end, what you do.

You'll hear interviews with my spouse, with experts on human sexuality and with former and current pornography users on how you can overcome your own struggle with addictive behavior.

The Thrive Beyond Pornography podcast will bring new perspective to your struggle and keep you coming back to improve all aspects of your life. (formerly, The Self Mastery Podcast: Overcome Pornography Forever)

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If you have listened to Brene Brown or any of the folks that have talked about and studied shame directly, you know, I may not be able to give you anything new that you have not heard from them, but I do want to contextualize this to pornography and, and sexual shame in particular around the pornography struggle that so many of the people that are, you know, if you're listening to this, that is exactly what you're here for. You're trying to solve that pornography problem.

So I want to start by just talking about how shame has impacted me in my own journey to moving beyond pornography.

The reality for me was that I didn't feel like I could tell anybody. In fact, I was There was, there was a lot of sexual shame in my life. There was a lot of just like, I don't know how to, to think about sexuality and my own struggles because the context that I was given around masturbation, pornography, sexuality was don't just don't it's, it's bad, it's evil.

And it's not that it was like bad or evil to have sex, but before you're married, And this is kind of one of those things that's a little bit difficult, I think, for a lot of people, is that before you're married, it's all out. And when you become married, it's all in to a degree. You know, you can have all the sex you want or all the sexuality that you, that you want, as long as you bring it to your spouse.

As a young man, I remember Thinking, Oh, I got to stop masturbating. I got to like eliminate this entirely from my life. I can't have any sort of orgasms. That's bad. And just before I went on my mission, that was probably the very first time that I didn't masturbate for long enough that I had a wet dream. And I remember waking up that morning, I'd been doing so well, I had been trying so hard, and I felt so just beat up. I was like, I can't believe this happened to me. I thought I had this under control. And I went into my bishop who, Greg Sperry, great guy.

And I said, I think I had a wet dream. I just don't know how to control that. And I, I don't know what to do next. And he was really great. And I felt so ashamed and he was just so great. He just was like, that's totally normal. You're fine. Don't worry about it. Not a big deal. And that really was this beautiful moment for me that allowed me to step back from the shame and not have the shame take over my life.

And that was really an amazing point for me. So I want to start by just kind of understanding what is shame.

I want you to understand that shame is something that we can move through and move beyond in order to achieve the goals that we're looking to achieve around pornography. And I think this is a really good opportunity to step back from how it is that you're feeling and start observing it and start asking yourself, am I, am I ashamed of my behavior? And can I address this differently?

So we're going to talk about what is shame, how it impacts you, how you can reframe it, and then how you can overcome it. So let's start with what is shame. And I, I'm not going to tell you anything that you haven't heard from Brene Brown, but shame, the difference between shame and guilt is that shame is feeling like we are bad and guilt is feeling like I did something bad.

I want you to understand that shame often stems from these, these Expectations that we have of ourselves that we're not meeting, whether it's your family or your church or your own, just internalized beliefs about your own sense of self and what worthiness looks like in that context. That's where this usually comes from.

Like, I'm not enough. I'm never going to be enough. No matter what I do, no matter how hard I try, no matter what I put into this, it's not enough.

And this is where guilt shifts into shame, where it's like, I'm not doing the things that I have decided don't fit into my value structure, and it's still not enough. I'm still not meeting my own standard. I'm not meeting the standard that has been placed on me by externalized forces.

And I'm, I'm never gonna be enough.

And I want you to understand that, especially around pornography and what we think and how we think, this is a very common struggle because we've been taught, if you look at a woman to lust after her, then you've already committed adultery in your heart. And I think the, the general interpretation of that is a really harsh reading of, you can't even see a woman and think she's pretty.

And that's not true. In fact, I think it's important to recognize number one, it's inherent in our DNA that when we look at a woman or when we look at someone of the opposite sex, we, we judge them as pretty or not pretty.

We judge them as desirable or undesirable. That's a pretty automatic thing. And to, to try and suppress that and try and force that down and trying to make that not something that happens is, is pretty impossible. So, one of the things that I like to do around that is just understand, oh, I can see someone, notice they're pretty, and then I can move on.

Every, I often say this in my consults, every single time a man walks into a room, they do two things. They look at every man in the room and they go, Where do I fit in the hierarchy of this room? Like, who's, uh, richer than me, who's stronger than me, who's taller than me, who's better at baseball than me.

Like, whatever it is that your measurements system is, that's what you're doing. You're looking at every man in the room and you go, where do I fit in the hierarchy of the men in the room? Who's the most powerful man in the room? And then, you know, where do I fit in that hierarchy?

And then the second thing that we do when we go into a room is we say who in here, and this is biological, right, so I don't want you to feel like you're doing anything wrong here.

We look around and we go, who in here is mateable, right? So who could I mate with.

Now, I want to be really clear. That doesn't mean you want to, or you will, or that Or that that part of your brain is like way out of control. It's just inherent in the way that we interact in the room. And it's not a problem if we don't make it a problem. And then, and that's where shame often comes around these things. As we look around and we go, "Oh my , I can't believe that I'm looking in this room and I'm seeing these beautiful women and I'm thinking they're beautiful."

And I want you to be really clear. That's not what's happening. It's just this biological checklist that's going on. And you're saying. "Okay, where do I fit in the hierarchy of the men? Where do I fit, where do the women fit in the hierarchy of the women?" That's really the judgment that's being made.

And Dr. Jordan Peterson talks about this in his books, you know, the way that we do this, he talks about it in terms of lobsters, but it's essentially the same thing. Now for women, they're doing, by the way, you're doing the same thing, you're just doing it slightly differently.

You're looking around the room and you're going, where do the men fit in the hierarchy of men? And then where do the, where do I fit in the hierarchy of the women?

Who am I prettier than? And all of the criteria that you guys utilize to Judge yourselves and each other and I'm not saying I'm not saying that that's a good thing. I'm not saying it's a bad thing I'm just saying that's basically how it works every time somebody walks in a room

Understanding how your brain is working and understanding that that's inherent and it's also not a bad thing, I hope that helps you reframe this a little bit, and we'll talk a little bit more about reframing.

But I want you to understand, if you're walking into a room, and you're feeling ashamed, because you see the women in there, and you think some of them are pretty, because you don't think all women are pretty, that's an inherent part of the way your brain operates.

So I want you to understand part of what's happening here is the shame that's being created is an externalized or societally driven framework that's probably making you feel bad when it's not necessary and it's not helpful.

So what's the impact of feeling shame?

When we feel like we can't be enough no matter how hard we try It decreases our self sense of self. It makes it so that we don't want to go out. We try to avoid, we try to eliminate as much of that external stimulus as possible. And it's really, really difficult to be the person that you want to be.

And it can also prevent you from seeking help from being honest with yourself and from being honest with those around you. And then also, It can prevent you from making positive changes because you're not actually addressing the problem in a meaningful way. It's just showing up and then you, it's punching yourself in the face over and over and over again.

And shame can often make it so that we end up spiraling, you know, that one negative experience. leads to an increased feeling of shame. And so we try really, really hard to suppress that experience, which then sometimes leads us to more unwanted behaviors, leads us to retrench and go looking for porn and engaging with pornography more, which can pile on that shame.

So that spiral that you may have experienced, I want you to know You're not alone, and you can actually step back from this because shame doesn't have to be the way that we engage with the problem. And if you want to step back from this, one of the things that you can do is reframe the shame. So think about the problem differently is an essential component of the process.

Number one, I want you to start by recognizing your inherent self-worth. A long time ago, there was a court case where these two very wealthy women had been going out and murdering homeless people and throughout their interrogation, these women kept saying something like, "well, they're just homeless people."

And that is representative of the value of the people that you have murdered. No matter where they live, no matter how much wealth they have, no matter how little they have, or no matter how poorly they've been treated by society, they're still worthy of compassion and love and all of the things that you expect because of your wealth and position and privilege, and you have taken that from them. And it's an interesting idea, right? This idea that the value of a person is not simply what they have or what they do.

Zach Spafford: And starting to think about that for yourself, starting to believe that about yourself, like, I am worthy, God loves me, I am lovable. And really valuing yourself as much as you might value those around you. Valuing yourself as highly as you might value the most important people in your life, is part of just reframing that narrative of shame from, I make mistakes, but I am still enough and I work to solve that every single day. And this is part of that acceptance and commitment process that I help people go through is learning to accept these difficult emotions, including shame as part of your human experience.

There's no, uh, we don't really have the ability to eject, to suppress and eliminate these feelings. But if we are willing to face them head on, address them in a meaningful way, and then look at why we believe these things so we can address that underlying narrative that is creating the shame, we're much more capable of finding a new way of seeing ourselves that is valuable and that helps us become the person that we want to be.

And committing to your personal values in that process, like who do I want to be, how do I want to show up, how do I want to engage my sexuality, can help you focus more directly on the empowerment that you do have and allow shame to dissipate on its own naturally.

So it's really important to recognize you can't suppress or eliminate or push shame down if you focus on empowerment, but you can grow, engage, and multiply and value your empowerment more by focusing on it and shame in the background will automatically manage itself.

So how do we overcome these feelings of shame? And I think this is really important. As we discussed, you know, I have this shame, I have this idea of what am I, sexuality is supposed to look like, but I'm not living up to it, I'm not able to, to follow my own values because I don't have the skills, I don't have the tools, and Every time I choose to view pornography because it's outside of my value structure, I create more and more shame.

So one of the very first things that it's important to do when that is what's going on for you is to start being self compassionate.

One of the reasons why I created the NAB diffusion technique and Where it says breathe and be kind is very often we aren't nice to ourselves. We beat ourselves up. We try to punch ourselves in the face. We try to guilt ourselves. We try to shame ourselves because we feel like that's supposed to somehow kick us into high gear and make it so that we change.

And it's just not so.

When people feel good about themselves, they make better decisions. And the more self compassion you can have, the more likely it is that you're going to be able to make the decisions that align most closely with your values.

A lot of times people are like, "well, if I don't punish this, or if I don't beat it up, or if I don't go after this hard, then I'm just condoning it."

And I don't think that's the truth.

I would argue that being kind and helping yourself and others is much more valuable than shaming or punishing anyone.

Zach Spafford: another thing that you can do is create greater mindfulness.

If you are more self compassionate, you're more present, you're more centered, that's essentially what mindfulness does. And you can see yourself more clearly, you can accept the parts of yourself that you don't like, even As you work to change them, and you can also be clear that you like most of what you do.

Most of us do like most of what we do in our lives.

I've yet to meet anybody, and I say this all the time, I've yet to meet anybody who has woken up on one morning and said, listen, I'm going to turn my life into a dumpster fire and I'm going to burn it all down. Most of us do our best every single day.

One of the reasons why I believe that journaling is so powerful is that we're taking it out of our internal dialogue because oftentimes we think, Oh, on my internal dialogue, I have this music and there's lights and it's like, there's like a whole Hollywood production when I believe something internally, but when I write it down, I've externalized it to the point where it has to stand on its own. And I can look at it more objectively, and I can see it for what it is, rather than the way that my brain is portraying it internally.

And that's a super helpful way to make this, like, just lower the temperature on this problem. Another thing that you can do, is to have a conversation with somebody. This is why I think there are, there's value in going to 12 step groups, even though I don't think that the 12 step groups themselves actually make behavior change.

The data on that's pretty clear, but Having people around you, who are in the same boat, who understand where you are with this. Who are willing to see you clearly is super important. Just talking about it with a trusted person, whether that's your spouse, whether that's a friend, whether that's a coach, it doesn't really matter.

Having that open communication is essential to really, Again, externalizing this so you can see it more objectively and allowing it to exist without needing yourself to be perfect. And if you need help with this, feel free to set up a consult with me by going to GetToThrive.com/workwithzach. I would love to meet with you.

And the more that you do these things, the more that you work to be self compassionate, be mindful, start talking with real people about this problem in your life. That is going to help you build resilience. One of the most important components of ACT, acceptance and commitment training, is building mental flexibility.

Being able to address the realities on the ground without needing them to be something that they're not. This is why I don't like the word should, for instance, because the word should is "there's a reality that doesn't exist that I need to exist and I can't seem to make it exist."

And that's not very mentally flexible.

Where, when we live in a place where it's like, I can see that this is the reality and I don't need it to be different because that's the past. All I can do is learn from it and move forward. That's mentally flexible. So if I'm looking at my behavior around pornography and I say, " I shouldn't be looking at porn." that's me not being very mentally flexible.

Whereas if I look at my reality and I say, "I have viewed pornography, I am doing my best to look directly at the results of that in my life and use that information to learn how to become a better version of myself," that's much more mentally flexible, but it's difficult because that shame kind of gets in the way and it keeps us from really looking directly at our behavior in a way that is helpful and meaningful.

So just understand that building that resilience requires us to face things directly, even when it feels horrible. Because it will.

Our ego is at stake. Our sense of self is at stake. And being able to just sit through that discomfort and address the problem directly, that process builds resilience and it helps us become more capable of seeing ourselves more clearly so we can build the sense of self that we really do want.

And understand that doing that may take time, it may take a little bit of help from outside sources, it may take somebody walking you through the process.

So don't feel bad if you don't know how to do that. Not very many of us do inherently know how to do that or our life experiences have kind of trained that out of us. So don't feel bad about that.

Just be, just be clear. "Oh, I can step into this. I can see this more clearly. I can address this openly if I'm willing to feel that discomfort of my ego being deflated a little bit. So I can resolve these problems."

So I can actually resolve these problems.

Shame does not define you. It doesn't define who you are. It doesn't define what you've done. You do not have to be perfect in order to solve this problem.

If you are willing to do the emotional growth, to get stronger at dealing with your emotions, become more capable at addressing the story that underlies those emotions, then you're going to be much more effective at leaving pornography behind.

All right, my friends, I hope this has been a helpful conversation about shame.

Please feel free to email me with any questions, zach@zachspafford.Com or go and set up an appointment at GetToThrive.com/workwithzach. I would love to meet with you and I will talk to you next week.