TA Ep. 168 Jonny Miller - Finding Balance: The Art of Emotional and Nervous System Regulation

Leigh Ann: Start on the recording. Well, Johnny, welcome to the Crescent community, the Crescent podcast. So happy to have you

Jonny Miller: It's wonderful to be here, Leon. Thank you.

Leigh Ann: We were talking just briefly before jumping on. You're even just kind of going through some of your content, your social media, your podcast, so well versed in the area of the nervous system that I coming into today, I was like, this is going to be too rudimentary for him, but I think you're such a great person to give all of us this, foundational information on the nervous system.

So we're going to start with some of the basics and then I'm going to hit you with some other fun questions at the end that might spice things up a little bit. But with all of that said, I do think a starting point is, you know, the, the cliche question of how did you get into this? What led you to the nervous system?

Something about it clearly lights you up so

And for me, it was, it was loss. I, um, I was engaged to a amazing woman who had bipolar. And, um, one morning when I was traveling, she really quite out of the blue overdosed on her own medication and she ended up taking her own life. And that, that was really my initiation into, into grief, into like, exploring my own emotions.

And I'd been relatively, relatively numb from the neck down. I would say growing up as a, as a man in England, we're kind of a famously emotionally repressed culture. Um, and so, so that was kind of like my own initiation into, like, I, I kind of went into meditation. I went into breath work, into psychedelic work, all of these different pathways.

And seeing that and like feeling the impact that that had on, on my life as well. I was like this, it just feels so important. And what I like about the nervous system is it's both, it's very tangible. Everyone has a nervous system. And I like to say that the state of our nervous system is like the lens through which we view reality.

Uh, yeah, and I'm happy to go in, in, you know, whatever direction would be most interesting. Okay.

Leigh Ann: have questions about the breathwork because I, I see my chiropractor weekly, he does so many other things, but he's always like, you're not breathing again, like, you're not breathing again, um, so he, he observes, and I have a very shallow, very, slow breathing pattern. So that's something that I've just been trying to work on and be more aware of recently.

Sorry, one sec. I'm hearing the echo now, so I'm just going to change a quick setting. Sorry.

Jonny Miller: Oh, good. There

Leigh Ann: Is it delayed for you?

Leigh Ann: Yeah. It's grayed out for me too, for some reason, which is odd because normally it's not you, you stay, let me go and I'll come back in. Okay. I just want to clear this cause if that's going to be in the background, that's going to be really.

Jonny Miller: Oh, good. Does that sound better?

Also, the thing, it does say, um, echo cancellation is off on my side and it says to turn it on if you're not wearing headphones. So, um, I, maybe if we pause the recording and then I leave and come back, I think it's because it's recording that it's not letting me.

We're all here to kind of experiment with the tools and the types of tools that are going to be best for us. But so this is something that I'm wanting to learn more and more about, about why doesn't it resonate for me, but also understanding, I, I believe I know where these breathing patterns come from rooted in some deep early childhood trauma, um, where I literally would just hold my breath.

As long as I possibly could. So I do know some of the roots of it, but now it's kind of like, okay, how do I restore normal breathing? What even is normal breathing? So,

And this shows up as, um, a breathing pattern, which is not fully dynamic. So we kind of lose some of our range or some of our capacity in the breath. And by Yeah, there's various forms of breathwork and it's kind of a confusing term, honestly. There's um, like functional breathing, which is more of like, like, um, using the full mobility of your, of your diaphragm and kind of learning to breathe light, slow and deep and kind of increasing your CO2 tolerance, things like that.

And as a result of that, the breathing pattern also shifts and then the breathing can become more dynamic, more full, more adaptive and responsive to the situation so that when we're trying to be calm, we're not kind of huffing and puffing. And when we're trying to be activated, we have that kind of The full range.

So we, I think of it as like, like years, like we want to be able to go from first year to fifth year as is required, basically.

Leigh Ann: mm hmm. Yeah. I almost wonder, tell me if this like it lands at all, breathwork feels like it's become kind of like yoga where we say yoga, but there's so many types. There's so many versions and there's so many different ways to use it. But I do think breathwork has been a little bit diluted. With all of the talk around it, especially with social media.

Even what you're saying about how it can elicit things to surface, it already catches my attention. That's very much what I do with clients with Evox and the technology that I use in the subconscious work. And so it's, it's interesting to go, Hmm, how can breathwork fit into that? Or even outside of sessions, how can that fit into

Jonny Miller: Totally. Yeah. I mean, I think of it as almost like there's multiple doorways into the subconscious, like you say, and for some people breathing in a circular way is easier, for other people it's like internal family systems or it's tapping or there's so many ways to surface that material. I think it's more of just like finding a right match for the, for the person.

And I think emotional wellness needs to be the exact same thing. Like we all need to curate the toolbox of resources that are right and resonant for us.

Jonny Miller: Mm

Leigh Ann: I don't know that it's always kind of positioned in that way. I still very much feel like in the realm of emotional work, the majority of people think of two things.

I think they think of like therapy or counseling and then meditation. And that's kind of it. I think in the in the masses. Of course, maybe in our worlds, there's more nuance to that, but I want it to be something where it's like, when you're in a moment, you're able to go, okay, here's what I'm experiencing and here's the tool I need for that.

And I know exactly what tool that is.

Jonny Miller: hmm.

Leigh Ann: It might be a body based tool, it might be a cognitive based tool, a mind based, you know, all these different things, so.

Maybe it's breathwork, maybe it's somatic experiencing to see, you know, do I notice any shifts? What was that like reflect on it and then design a new experiment. And as you say, People will start to build this kind of eclectic toolkit of, I think of it, there's, there's like top down, bottom up and outside in approaches.

Leigh Ann: And I think that goes back to what we're going to get into today and what you do so much of is that education of helping individuals understand what's happening, what they're experiencing. Developing that skill to be able to attune to themselves. And when they have that foundation, of course we can give them some initial tools, but then they're able to go, yeah, here's, you know, two or three tools for when I'm in a free state, but also I now feel equipped to go out and.

Yeah, and sometimes I use this word where it's like we're translators, and we're teaching people how to translate what their body's already telling them. The knowledge, the intuition, the communication, the body is always, the mind, body, and spirit, I think, is always communicating, but we're just not all kind of, I don't think any of us are.

Yeah. Okay. So we got a little bit of ahead of ourself and I'm already super excited, but I do think we need to rewind and just start with what is the nervous system? I do think most people listening are going to understand this, so we don't need to spend a ton of time here, but I do kind of want to make take us in a linear path of what is the nervous system?

Mm hmm. I love it. And then just for, again, for the sake of just laying the foundation, regulation versus dysregulation, the different states that the nervous system can be in.

Mhm.

Yeah, yeah. Um, I want to ask this question because what, what in a practical day to day might a fight response, a flight response, hyperarousal look like in like tangible things people might be doing, feeling, experiencing, and then same question for hypoarousal. And I want to ask specifically because sometimes I, in my own head, fight, or excuse me, flight and freeze.

Sometimes to me, feel similar in that they can both be kind of numbing activities. I suppose, even as I'm talking it out right now, maybe the main difference is the activities can be similar, but the energy inside of us is so much different. Like I could be scrolling on Instagram and be like really activated, kind of high energy, um, hyperactive, or I could be scrolling on Instagram just like totally zoned out, really sluggish.

Yeah, completely. So just so we have that foundation though, what, for someone who's like, okay, hyper arousal, hypo arousal, what does this look like in their day to day? For someone who might be like, huh, am I experiencing any of these? It could look like blank.[00:19:00] [00:20:00]

Hmm.

Mm hmm.

Whoa, I think I was dysregulated Most of the time most of the time and for me I wonder if you see this in the people you work with I do feel like we all Kind of have our default response like for me. It's the free freeze something happens. Like i'm in freeze immediately. I'm dissociating I'm getting brain foggy I'm getting a little sluggish.

Like I remember in high school, we were like going to the zoo with my family and my boyfriend at the time, and I remember talking to myself before, like, okay, don't, don't check out, like, don't zone out on this, on this outing, you know, and, and I didn't know what I was saying. And I didn't know what was happening when I would check out.

Yeah.

And I, I, I don't think I know how to, like, what I'll do is then I'll spend seven hours working on it without getting up, without eating, without drinking. And I don't think that is totally healthy either, but it's this kind of like, yeah, how can I feel this excitement and, and kind of let it hang out at a six or a seven and work on this project and not have to like put the pedal to the metal until it's done.[00:25:00]

Yeah, what is your two cents on how to sit with that a little bit because that is the big big thing I feel like I've been experiencing lately is I've done a ton of work on the freeze and And especially for me in the subconscious models I work with, I know that that's coming from a protective place of, Ooh, if I am fully in this, things are going to go awry.

I'm not going to disassociate. So I've, I've really worked hard on that and I do it so much less, but then it's still this sort of like that, that excitement, I don't know how to sit with that totally in a way that I feel is as productive or impactful as it could be. And it's, and then it's kind of like, am I over regulating where I get, I get that excited feeling.

I love that so much. And it's like, practice what you preach, right? Cause I tell my clients all the time, just feel it. Don't try and change it yet.

there's like knowing what you feel and then there's feeling what you feel.

Mm-Hmm.

Yes.

Almost like you would turn to a friend when you see a friend's upset or when you see a friend's getting kind of down, you'd turn to them and you'd be like, Hey, what's up? What's going on? Talk to me. You wouldn't be like, okay, start tapping immediately. Tap, tap, tap. You know, like we, we'd hear them first before, before trying to immediately, at least I think most of us would, we'd kind of witness and show up for them before trying to maybe bring in some tools to support them, but we don't show up for ourselves that way.

And I need to witness that and make space for that. But then once I do, I can remind that part that she's not the one that has to make the decisions. It's this adult part that gets to, and this adult part has so much more tools and knowledge and support. And. And that does help sort of settle things through do you find this is something I feel like I've observed and because you've worked with so many I'd love your two cents on it.

So fights like the go-to every time forever. Mm-Hmm.

And so, so often we're working through a lot of past stuff. And hearing you say that, I think I see that exactly in clients. It's kind of like either anger is what's always showing up or it's kind of vice versa. And I often refer to them as mask emotions where once we get into it, especially for sometimes people with anger, where anger is like the dominant thing they're experiencing all the time.

All that to say it's, it's You know, what we, what I talk about so much with clients is how much of who we are today goes back to childhood and what we experienced, what was modeled to us, what was inherited generationally, all these different things. And, and you kind of mentioned this before, where so many of us can start to feel like, well, this is just who I am.

I've had clients who are like, I just thought I was an angry person. People always told me, you're just such an angry person, or I just thought I was depressed. I just thought that's who I am, that's who I came into this world as, and I like to ask the question, is that, who am I, versus who did I adapt to be to survive?

So you're saying, when we feel our emotions, that creates new neural pathways.[00:35:00]

Yeah, I love that. I think that's such a powerful statement because, and I'm so excited because I really think over the next 10, 20 years, there's going to be so much science coming out on how emotions are affecting us so much more than what is already available. But, you know, we're, I think people like you, people like me, we're over here like, Feeling your emo it's, it's important, it's good, and we have some data on why.

Oh, okay, I need to look him up for sure.[00:37:00]

Yeah,

I'd love to be able to show more of the correlations there, but I'm probably, you know, I'm three years out from designing any research studies or anything. So, but I'll have to follow along that researcher, but it makes so much sense. Even what you're saying of feeling our emotions allows for more neuroplasticity because I think, I feel like dysregulation is almost the opposite of that.

It's just, it's a rigidity. It's a, A bracing, a tensing, a shutting down, whether it's hyper or hypo. And kind of the belief or the sentiment beneath it is if I don't go through this experience in fight or in flight or in freeze, something really bad is going to happen. So I have to go through it in this way.

I've been dealing with that so much lately, so much. Like I had my sixth concussion like a year ago. And so I, my memory has been so bad, especially in these interviews, which is why I'm like, Soccer, football. Yeah, something crazy with my head. No knee injuries, like most soccer players out there, but so many head injuries.

Especially when we're starting to get towards things like maybe more of a panic attack, where there's very real physiological processes that are happening that I don't know, we can just flip the switch on, although I'd love your input on that. But what I'd also like to start with is this idea of Yeah, regulation over regulating.

Mm hmm.

Mm

hmm.

mm hmm I do want to ask specifically about that freeze state because what I also find is I might be in a free state and But I'm doing all of these You I don't know if suppressing is the right word, but things that might typically be used to take us from a hyper aroused state down, but when you're already down, I think we actually maybe need to do things that lift us up a little bit.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, what was just coming up for me is this idea of both states, hyper, hypo. There's a sentiment beneath it. Hyper, the, the sentiment is if I slow down, Bad things will happen. And I think hypo is the reverse. If I speed up, bad things will happen. And I don't think it's let's go from zero to a hundred, but maybe kind of gently, of course, witnessing sitting with it.

After that witnessing, take a second to do that and show my body. Actually, this is okay. This is helping you get restored. Yeah, it's kind of, what is that statement or that belief beneath the protective mechanism? And can we start to demonstrate that that belief might not be true through some of these practices, I think is what we're doing.

With that, I do want to talk about, we were touching on this for a second, This idea of, okay, I'm feeling something unpleasant, whether it's hyper arousal, hypo arousal, I need to do something immediately. And is it realistic? I'm thinking I guess both ways, but I do think a lot of people, when they think about this stuff, they think of hyper activity, the hyper arousal states wanting to bring themselves down.

Right.[00:48:00]

Yes. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna sit down in the grocery store and start tapping away. No.

I think it's worth sitting with because sometimes what I hear clients, you know, come back to me with is, you know, I, I started doing the breath work, but I didn't feel like it was working. So that made me more anxious. Like, Oh no, I'm not calming down. Oh no, my heart rate is still up. I guess it's not working.

We can probably restore whatever that regulation looks like pretty quickly. But if we're really super dysregulated, the idea that we're going to be able to go from 10 to zero in 30 seconds, I don't think is realistic. And, and assuming that it is, can heighten the problem.

Mm hmm. 100%. On that note, I would love to hear, with regard to panic attacks specifically, what is going on, as far as you understand, what is going on in the nervous system that might be different from maybe what we might deem as just kind of more typical hyper arousal? Is there something significantly different that's happening?

And then same question on the reverse, which is, for someone who maybe feels like they're in the midst of a panic attack, is it, do all the same things you would do for a different type of dysregulation, or is there anything different you might suggest there?[00:52:00]

Mm hmm. Okay.

What might that look like? Quick, quick, quit your job, move to the Caribbean.

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm[00:56:00]

I do have a thought, but, um, yeah, what I'll say is, you know, what I often say to clients is like, even if it's five minutes, five minutes in the morning, five minutes at night, and even if you had a great day, do something, do something to support your system, whether it's the breath work, the meditation, the tapping, the yoga, a nice slow walk.

We've got sleep, you know, nutrition, diet, some of those sunshine, but Whether it's something like yoga, breath work, meditation, tapping. Is there a minimum where it's like, Hey, you really gotta be doing this at least like 10 minutes a day for it to be impactful? Yeah.[00:58:00] [00:59:00]

I love what you're saying though about the fluidity. And I talk about this often too where it's like, It's not just what, what works for me forever. It's what is aligned for me right now. This week, this month, and I have this sort of pact with myself where anytime any of my habits become like a chore I have to do, I know it's time to change something.

And so I, I love my walks, but as soon as I get bored of a certain route, I know it's time to choose a different route. And I just think there, so many of us get caught in this laundry list of self care things that almost just become added chores. And I really think that there are so many resources out there that the self care we're doing should always be fun, should always light us up.

If it's not, it's time to shake things up.

And then I'm asking those questions of, and what's all the unprocessed repressed stuff that's taking up your capacity. And this is, this is kind of the analogy I use with cancer patients a lot where it's like, Hey, we want as much of your capacity free. To go tackle this thing. But if you've got bags and bags and bags of repressed emotions and unsaid words and misalignments in your life, you only have 5 percent of your capacity left.

That's going to solve everything or it's all body based work. That's going to, if you just do nervous system stuff, it's going to soothe everything. And I'm very much more like, no, no, we need to bring in all the pieces of the puzzle when we need them. And in fact, what I find, and this is why I encourage so many clients to do nervous system work and breath work and meditations is when we do the body based work and the cognitive based work together.

It just completely supercharges, superspeeds the process. Mm hmm. Mm

Yeah. Yeah. Well, because what I, I see it on both ends where I see people who, usually people who come to me are like, I've been in therapy for 18 years. It hasn't really done much for me. And we're going deeper into that subconscious. And likewise, you see people who are like, I meditate every day, an hour a day, and I'm still, I still hate my life and I'm like so anxious all the time.

Completely. I call it, I call it soothing versus solving. Tons and tons of soothing practices and we need those. But if we're never doing solving work, if we're never asking, why was I dysregulated? Why did I need this? We're just going to need to soothe and soothe and soothe more and more and more. So. I love it.

I love it. Like I said, we'll make sure we link it all in the show notes. How often do you run the course? Okay. Okay, so just for anyone who might miss this one, it'll be back in the spring. Yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much. This was absolutely phenomenal.