Jealous much, Dear Listener? Fret not! In today’s conversation with Julie Barr, MFT, we explore jealousy: what it is, whether it’s healthy, and what to do about it in intimate relationships.

You may wonder, What is the true root of jealousy? Julie investigates whether jealousy is a fleeting feeling or an ingrained trait and how it differs from envy. We discuss whether jealousy is a natural, inevitable emotion or a trauma response. To round out our exploration of jealousy’s causes, we explore its link to attachment styles, particularly anxious attachment.

Next, Julie shares practical tips for addressing jealousy in romantic relationships, whether you’re in a monogamous or non-monogamous partnership.  We delve into compersion, a concept from ethical non-monogamy that can benefit people of all relationship structures. Along the way, we take some fun tangents into boundaries vs. control (hello, Jonah Hill!), how metamours are like axe throwing, and what to do if your partner wants to spend time with an ex.

Our guest, Julie Barr, MFT, is a skilled therapist, dating coach, and couples counselor with over 30+ years of experience. She specializes in working with queer, kinky, and non-monogamous individuals, couples, and polycules.  Learn more about Julie and schedule a free consultation at relationshipcenter.com/about-julie-barr.

Key Takeaways

00:00 - Intro

02:34 - What is jealousy?

20:23 - Can jealousy be healthy in a relationship?

39:20 - What is compersion?

To get more free dating, relationship, and social anxiety advice, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter to sign up for – you guessed it – our newsletter!

Looking for some help finding your person? Visit relationshipcenter.com

From the Relationship Center, I'm psychotherapist, couples

2

counselor, and dating coach Jessica

Engle, and this is I Love You Too,

3

a show about how to create and

sustain meaningful relationships.

4

Josh Van Vliet: I'm dating and

relationship coach Josh Van Vliet.

5

On today's episode, we're going

to talk about jealousy with

6

special guest, Julie Barr.

7

We are so happy you're here.

8

And please remember that this show is

not a substitute for a relationship with

9

a licensed mental health professional.

10

Welcome, welcome, dear listener.

11

Thanks for joining us today for this

conversation all about jealousy and

12

how we, how we work with jealousy.

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In relationships, we're

especially thrilled that we're

14

joined today by Julie Barr.

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Julie is our clinical supervisor, she's

a wonderful therapist, dating coach, and

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couples counselor here at the Relationship

Center, and she's especially experienced

17

and talented around guiding queer, kinky,

and non monogamous couples, triads,

18

polycules, to understand one another

better and rebuild trust so that they can

19

feel like they're on the same page again.

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And so, This is the perfect person

to be joining us here to talk

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about jealousy in relationships.

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Welcome, Julie.

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Julie Barr: Thank you.

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I am thrilled to be here and very

honored to be on this podcast.

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Josh Van Vliet: We're honored to have you.

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Jessica Engle: Before we dive in

dear listener, if you love our

27

show, we love you too, and want

to be in touch between episodes.

28

To get more free dating, relationship,

and social anxiety advice,

29

please go to RelationshipCenter.

30

com slash newsletter.

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Okay.

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So let's dive in, Julie.

33

And we are going over a few

different questions today.

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Did you want to go over Josh, the

different questions we're going to

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Josh Van Vliet: folks the arc of kind

of where the conversation is headed,

36

and then we can start diving in.

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So, jealousy is a big topic.

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We're going to start with just kind of

the foundation, like, what is jealousy?

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I think we all have a common

understanding, or like, we think we

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know what it is, but I think we're

going to go a little bit deeper, and you

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might be a little bit surprised about

what Jealousy is really about here.

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And then we'll go a little further with,

can jealousy be healthy in a relationship?

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And if so, when?

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When is it helpful?

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How do we work with it?

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And we'll wrap the conversation up looking

at a term called compersion, which those

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of you familiar with ethical non monogamy

or polyamory may be familiar with.

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And so stay tuned about what is that

and how do we, how do we work with it?

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Julie Barr: Great.

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Josh Van Vliet: So let's dive

in with what is jealousy?

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Julie Barr: That's a fabulous

question and I think if you ask

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different people, they will have very

different definitions of jealousy.

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Some folks might think it's

a feeling that that shows up.

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Some folks might think it's a trait

that people are jealous which,

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you know, in our field, we love to

differentiate between people who have

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jealousy and people who are jealous.

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It's very different, right?

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But we like to think about jealousy

as in my world as a secondary.

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feeling that it's actually not the first

feeling that comes up and it is a result

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of other thoughts or feelings that are

happening in the body at the same time.

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Jessica Engle: That's so interesting.

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And so tell us a little

bit more about that.

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I think our, some of our listeners may

not be totally familiar with even that

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concept of primary and secondary emotion.

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So say a little bit more about that.

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Julie Barr: Sure.

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When I think about primary and secondary

emotions, I think about, um, kind of,

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you know, the reptile brain and the,

the neuro, um, neurological system and

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the way it connects to the body and how

our bodies have immediate reactions to

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things, um, that are very biological.

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So if, say, on the, the positive

side of feelings, a mother sees

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her small child running towards her

with joy, she feels love and joy

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immediately bursting out in her body.

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And then secondary emotions

of that might be affection and

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wanting to Take care of the child

and, and those sorts of feelings.

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On the other end of the spectrum would

be more like we're walking through

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the woods and we hear a sound and it

scares us and we have a lot of fear.

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A secondary emotion might be to think

that I'm about to die or to have

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another Maybe even anger that I, I

need to get ready to fight that animal.

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So it's, it's a, it's a, it's an emotion

that stems from a second emotion.

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In relationship, I would say it shows

up mostly in when we notice a fear or

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a joy or something coming up for us.

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And Then we realize we're having more

emotions about it and jealousy can

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be part of that, happiness can be

part of that, um, love, affection,

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care can all be part of that,

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Jessica Engle: Yeah, I'm thinking about

moments working with clients where

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they will report getting angry in a

relationship and when we really dig into

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it, and it may be related to jealousy,

when we really dig into it underneath,

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there's a deep sense of vulnerability,

there's fear, there is shame.

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There is sadness, um, but the, the anger

or the jealousy maybe kind of covers

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up that first experience because it's

maybe a little bit hard to access.

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Is that sort of what, how you think of it?

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Like the, the jealousy or

secondary emotion kind of protects

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us from the first emotion?

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Julie Barr: Yes.

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Yes.

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I think of jealousy as, um, that's a

great word, the protect, uh, protecting.

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Emotion.

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The other place where it sometimes

shows up is insecurity, where we don't

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have confidence in our relationship

or we don't have confidence in ourself

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as a lovable person in our own worth.

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And then we notice that we feel jealous

of what the other person is, is, is

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doing because we don't think that

we can provide that for our partner.

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Jessica Engle: Related to that.

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I'm curious, can anxious

attachment make you jealous?

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Julie Barr: Honestly, I think

anxious attachment makes you anxious.

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Um, and in that insecurity, um, yes,

jealousy can be a secondary emotion

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that shows up, but underneath it all is

the anxiety about their relationship.

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And so you know, the, the fears that

come up as they're related to any other

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human being in your partner's life are,

um, are mostly about your own Again,

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I think it's insecurity or self worth.

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Are you going to meet the

needs of your partner in a way

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that's fulfilling for them?

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It's a great question.

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Josh Van Vliet: so what I'm, I think

what I'm getting from what you're saying

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so far Julie is that jealousy is kind

of often the, as you're saying, the

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secondary emotion for something like a

deeper insecurity or fear about Not being

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able to meet the needs of your partner.

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Am I getting that right?

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Julie Barr: Or not getting

your own needs met.

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The other, the other, I

think it's a, it's a signal.

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It's a marker.

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Oh, hey.

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There's something I'm not getting in

this relationship that I really need.

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And I'm, I'm, maybe I

haven't asked for it.

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Maybe I don't know how to ask for it.

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Maybe it's really scary to ask for it.

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And my fear is that if my partner

is doing that, even in any type of

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relationship, monogamous, open, non

monogamous, um, if they're getting that

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source of fulfillment from someone else.

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Am I going to be able to

get it from them as well?

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Josh Van Vliet: Mmm.

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Julie Barr: So it's a, I think

of it as like a little, I don't

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know, like a flare going up when

you, when you have a car wreck.

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Something is not okay in my relationship.

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And so that's why I'm feeling.

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Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, and I love

what you're saying there about

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it's a signal potentially that

there's something that you're not

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getting met in the relationship.

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That's like, pay attention here.

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Like there's something that needs,

needs, needs attending to, needs

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some care, needs to be addressed.

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I'm also curious how

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Jessica Engle: trauma

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Josh Van Vliet: trauma plays in,

if you see it does, with jealousy.

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Like, is jealousy related to a

trauma response some of the time?

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Or are these kind of just

separate kind of things happening?

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Julie Barr: I think my best answer

for that would be it depends.

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Josh Van Vliet: For sure.

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Makes sense.

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Julie Barr: Yeah.

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It depends on what your trauma is.

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If you have a lot of relationship trauma,

if you've had either an abusive history,

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say you've come out of a relationship

with a narcissistic personality who

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did not focus on you you know, maybe

you have family trauma where you

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were not seen, you are not valued.

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Uh, it, it can definitely show up

in, in relationship as, as again, I

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think the underlying feelings are more

like fear or insecurity but they can

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totally be based on previous trauma.

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And I think, I think the other answer

to that, Josh, would be if you've had

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really difficult relationships and you

don't have a feeling of success at being

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in relationship, um, like you don't feel

like you were quote unquote good at it.

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Right?

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Um, I think jealousy can be a

sign that you're worried you're

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going to lose your relationship.

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You're, you're fearing

it's going to go away.

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So abandonment stuff too.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Jessica Engle: I'm thinking about

relationship OCD, right, which is a

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preoccupation with the health of a

relationship or the rightness of, of

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one's partner and how there's a subset

of that, which is a jealous subtype or

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what's called retroactive jealousy, where

somebody gets really, really fixated

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on, um, a partner's past relationships.

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And just thinking about how relationship

OCD is sort of a way that some people.

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protect themselves from vulnerability,

essentially, from the loss of a

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relationship, um, by hyperfixating on

something that maybe feels a little bit

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more controllable than their own worth.

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So I'm just, I don't know, just really

sitting with what you're saying about,

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I think that in our culture we have a

pretty limited understanding of jealousy.

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And it's kind of seen as like, well, it's

just, it is what it is rather than what

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you're saying, which is it's, it's multi

layered and it can really be a strategy

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in some ways to get our needs met.

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I

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Josh Van Vliet: holding, and

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Julie Barr: I think I would, I

would move a little bit away from

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the word jealousy as a strategy and

think of it again as a marker, as a

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signpost, as something to watch for.

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And then Using it as a way to

be curious in your relationship

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where is, where's the root of it?

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Where is it coming from?

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And what am I going to do with it?

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I love the fact that you said

something about it's easier to

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control something outside ourselves

than our own vulnerability.

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Because I do think, especially

in monogamous relationships,

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folks use it Say you were talking

about OCD and past relationships.

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Someone might have their partner

is going to meet an ex lover

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or ex, you know, even ex.

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wife, sort of individual.

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And, and that person has all this

jealousy come up and, and they

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want to control it and say, no, you

can't hang out with this person.

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No, you can't hang out with previous

relationships, previous loves.

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And that is an easy fix

to control that feeling.

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I don't have to feel jealous about what

you're doing if I can control that.

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But what.

206

is probably underlying that is

again, that fear that something

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you're not, they're not going to

get something in the relationship.

208

So going back to their relationship,

seeing that as a signpost

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of, Oh, I'm feeling insecure.

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What is going on with me and

starting in that conversation

211

and then talking to your partner.

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And I love being able

to share with a partner.

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I'm feeling jealous.

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I need to.

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Figure out what's going on and this is,

this is where I think it's coming from.

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And it, it's super exciting to have

that conversation as edgy as it can be.

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Jessica Engle: I love so much

the frame that you're holding.

218

And I hear the difference

between Marker versus strategy.

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If we frame it more as a marker, like you

said, it kind of invites this curiosity.

220

It's, it's less, I don't know

if this was your intention, but

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it's less kind of judgy or black

and white about what's happening

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Julie Barr: Mm

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hmm.

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Josh Van Vliet: The other

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Noticed

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Jessica Engle: the other thing I noticed

in what you said, what a beautiful,

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beautiful stance in relationship.

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When I'm jealous, I look inward.

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Josh Van Vliet: people don't know that.

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Jessica Engle: I

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Josh Van Vliet: this feels

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Jessica Engle: think some people don't

Know that, like this feels to me like

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one of the biggest takeaways already from

this episode is like if you're feeling

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jealous, like your partnership may need

you to do the work around that rather

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Julie Barr: hmm.

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Absolutely.

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Jessica Engle: making it

the other person's issue,

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Julie Barr: Right.

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Right.

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Josh Van Vliet: Reflecting on what

you both are saying, and I think for

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some folks it can occur as I think

particularly in monogamous relationships,

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but this may come up in other kinds

of relationships as well, it can occur

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as like, there are, there are right

things to do, right, like there, it

244

is right to not have contact with your

past partners, for instance, right?

245

And if you're not doing that my jealousy

is a normal natural response to you

246

doing the wrong thing or doing kind

of what's not acceptable and therefore

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you should stop doing it just what

you're talking about like kind of

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controlling the other in order to

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Jessica Engle: trolling the other

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Josh Van Vliet: rather than this beautiful

kind of inquiry of okay, what is coming

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up for me around this, and I imagine

there's also, uh, kind of a next step,

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which we maybe will get to is like, how

do you relate to your partner but I just

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love this, even, yeah, just like pulling

back to, let me examine what are the

254

assumptions I have about what is kind

of right or proper or how it's supposed

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to be in relationships, doesn't mean

you have to change those necessarily.

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You may decide, okay, yeah, this

is what I want in a relationship.

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but

258

you do it from a place of what's important

to me rather than kind of this hard

259

and fast, like, rigidity, uh, I need

to control the other person's behavior

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because I don't like it, I don't feel

like the way I feel when they do X, Y, Z.

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Julie Barr: Right.

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Right.

263

I, I think of it similar to

when people talk about having

264

boundaries in relationship.

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And Sometimes folks mistake boundaries

with I get to tell you what to do.

266

And I think especially when it comes to

feelings of jealousy, it's, it's an act

267

like being able to have accountability

for the fact that you're having this

268

feeling come up and it's inside yourself.

269

And it most likely stems from

something that you're feeling,

270

uh, deeper than that jealousy.

271

And then being able to say, you

know, My, my boundary might be

272

that I, I need this from you.

273

I need reassurance.

274

I need you to tell me

that I'm important to you.

275

I need you to, um, make sure that I know

that You're in this relationship with

276

me, and you're not trying to start a

relationship with that person over there.

277

But it's not necessarily me saying,

I need you to not see other people.

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I need you to not hang

out with the opposite sex.

279

I think our, our society has, has made

rules, I like the way you put it Josh,

280

about right and wrong when you're in

a heterosexual normative marriage that

281

you can't hang out with people of the

opposite sex, because that's weird.

282

And it's like, what?

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Jessica Engle: Mhmm.

284

Julie Barr: Yeah.

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So

286

controlling the other person, but

controlling working with your own stuff.

287

Yeah.

288

And being accountable.

289

Jessica Engle: it sounds truly like Jonah

Hill really needed you as a therapist.

290

Do you, do you all know?

291

Josh doesn't know this.

292

Okay, so there was a

whole sort of scandal.

293

Jonah Hill texted his girlfriend his

quote unquote boundaries, which were a

294

bunch of demands about how she shouldn't

be posting certain pictures about herself

295

or spending certain time with With men,

and he was using a lot of therapy speak

296

to basically assert that this was good

and this was right, and most of the

297

internet was like, oh, this is icky, uh.

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Julie Barr: Yeah.

299

Yeah.

300

Yeah.

301

And it's, but it's not that uncommon.

302

It's incredibly common.

303

Right, so it's, it's breaking down a

norm of ownership of your partner, which

304

you know, we are as a society, perhaps

slowly, but surely trying to really

305

make sure that we are in relationship

in a agreement where we actually agree.

306

Jessica Engle: Wait, are you

saying consent is important?

307

Invitation to say,

308

Julie Barr: huh?

309

Consent comes up around jealousy,

310

Josh Van Vliet: I think this is one

of, uh, veering slightly off topic a

311

little bit, but I think this is one of

the beautiful things that the ethical

312

non-monogamy, polyamory movement

has contributed to relationships in

313

general, like whether or not you're in a

monogamous or non-monogamous relationship.

314

The invitation to really look at

and, and choose consciously, what

315

are the agreements that you're making

with a partner or partners because.

316

They're important to you, not because you

think you should be doing them or because

317

that's just what you see other people

doing, uh, I think it's so valuable,

318

like, you know, even as someone personally

who's in a monogamous relationship,

319

it, it's been so meaningful to me to

get to look at and choose what are the

320

aspects of that kind of relationship

that I want to say yes to because I

321

think that's what's good for me and

what's going to work well for me rather

322

than because it's what I think society

323

Jessica Engle: tells

324

Josh Van Vliet: me I should be doing.

325

So I think it's just such a

beautiful inquiry no matter what

326

your relationship structure is.

327

Julie Barr: right?

328

Josh Van Vliet: And, and it feels like

jealousy is a helpful, like, signal here

329

for helping us look at where are some of

those areas that we might be choosing more

330

consciously, what are the agreements or

the ways of engaging or the things that

331

I need personally in a relationship that

332

I can, I can request actively from

my partner or partners rather than

333

trying to control their behavior.

334

Julie Barr: right.

335

Yeah, and I think that's a actually

a beautiful way to frame it, Josh,

336

because I think, you know, one, one

thing one, one word that folks have

337

used in the non monogamous world

that I love is relationship anarchy.

338

Being able to break the, You know,

the systems of monogamy and recreate

339

relationships in whatever way works for

those two individuals and really making

340

it work for those two individuals, right?

341

And when I say agreement, I mean,

you know, they have agreements

342

that they both fully agree to.

343

It's not, um, one person acquiesces

or compromises their, their needs

344

or desires for the other person.

345

They're actually agreeing to things

that they're really a yes to.

346

Yeah,

347

Josh Van Vliet: That's beautiful.

348

I feel like we've started to, to tip

into this, uh, this next question

349

Jessica Engle: I I

350

Josh Van Vliet: it's becoming clear

maybe from our conversation so far that

351

jealousy can be healthy in a relationship.

352

Um, or maybe at least I'm inferring

that from our conversation so far.

353

It's like, even as you're saying,

like, this is a signal, right?

354

Something to, to, to attend to here

that already feels like useful.

355

This is, this is good information.

356

Um, but I'd love to hear your take

on it, Julie, like can, can jealousy

357

be health, healthy in a relationship?

358

And, and, uh, yeah, what,

what do you see about that?

359

Julie Barr: you know, Josh, there's a

question on OkCupid for our dear readers

360

who are in the online dating world that

actually asked, is jealousy healthy?

361

And for a while I used it as a little

my own little signpost for who I

362

wanted to be in relationship with

because I believe it is healthy.

363

Jessica Engle: mm,

364

Julie Barr: No matter how well you

design your relationship and how well

365

you take care of each other and how

well you, you have your agreements

366

or whatever, so it'll still come up.

367

It is just, I think it's an absolutely

natural emotion and, and seeing it

368

as healthy and is something to have

a discussion about is, in my opinion.

369

It's revolutionary in a lot of ways,

but it also is, it, yeah, I think

370

jealousy is absolutely healthy.

371

I think what we do with it can be helpful

or unhelpful to our relationships.

372

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah.

373

I just, even as you're saying that I'm,

I'm just realizing at another level,

374

like when we see it as, as bad, it

becomes, it's still a signal, but it's

375

like a signal, Oh no, something is wrong.

376

You're doing something bad.

377

This person is bad sometimes.

378

Right.

379

Uh,

380

uh, rather

381

Julie Barr: sometimes we feel

shameful about it, right?

382

Like, Oh, I'm feeling jealousy.

383

I'm, uh,

384

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, absolutely.

385

Julie Barr: it.

386

Yeah.

387

I'm bad

388

Josh Van Vliet: It's either

they're bad or I'm bad.

389

And, uh, either way, somebody is bad here.

390

Julie Barr: Yeah,

391

Yeah.

392

absolutely.

393

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah.

394

And when we see it as healthy, it's

like, Oh, there's a place to go here.

395

It's not, um, the end of a conversation

or the end of a relationship or the,

396

you know, it's like, Oh, there's

something to investigate here.

397

It's a signal.

398

Um, and if we just kind of know this

is going to come up, no matter the

399

relationship structure, no matter

who you are, no matter how good your

400

agreements are this is probably going

to come up at some point in your

401

relationship, then it's like, okay, great.

402

Jessica Engle: Jelly's coming up.

403

Josh Van Vliet: Cool.

404

It becomes less of a, like, red alert,

you know thing and more of a, an opening.

405

Jessica Engle: me more.

406

Julie Barr: And I think one of the

things that sometimes can be confusing is

407

differentiating between envy and jealousy.

408

Josh Van Vliet: Ooh,

409

tell me more.

410

Julie Barr: uh, it's another

rich conversation, I think,

411

when you are noticing yourself

envious of the other person.

412

And the way I differentiate it for

myself is, you know, if I'm, I'm

413

feeling jealous, It's usually about

something or someone that my partner,

414

you know, is attending to or something

my partner is doing has me feel jealous

415

of something outside of that person.

416

Whereas envy, I think, is I'm

jealous of some experience

417

my partner is having, right?

418

Or the person that I'm focused

on in that moment, my, it can

419

be my best friend, whoever.

420

I'm envious of their position

and I want to be in their shoes.

421

And again, I feel like in that, in

that realm, that's another signpost

422

of, Oh, what am I not getting?

423

And, and what action do I need to take to

meet my own needs right in this situation?

424

So I, I also wanted to throw

that in there as something that.

425

You know, another piece of this

that again, Enby has, I think

426

it's one of the seven sins.

427

Jessica Engle: Right, yeah.

428

Julie Barr: It's been, we've been told

it's terrible and bad all these years.

429

And, and for me, I just see it

as a, again, a little signal

430

something's going on in me.

431

I need to do some investigation.

432

Josh Van Vliet: Mmm.

433

Jessica Engle: Yeah, again,

I just love the curiosity

434

stance, the acceptance stance.

435

It's like, the relationships that I see

that are inspirational, that are really

436

flourishing are ones where both people

are able to step out of splitting,

437

out of, you know, putting people in

very rigid boxes as good, bad, right,

438

wrong, victim, perpetrator, and just be

in the space of like, well, we happen

439

to be two very messy human beings.

440

Neither of us is wrong or right.

441

And like, where do we go from here?

442

How can we?

443

You know, co create.

444

So I just love how, how rooted

you are in that stance in

445

Julie Barr: Mm hmm.

446

Jessica Engle: you're treating jealousy.

447

I'm curious to come back to

and make sure that we fully

448

checked out a common occurrence.

449

This was something that one of our

teammates brought up and wanted

450

us to ask you about, which is,

you know, kind of going more into

451

like, when's jealousy helpful?

452

When does it maybe go too far?

453

So the example is, you know, let's say

heterosexual monogamous clients, one

454

person is hanging out with a former

lover and that makes their partner

455

jealous and so she wants him to not

be involved with that former lover.

456

When is that manipulative and controlling

and when is that what she really needs

457

for the security of the relationship?

458

Curious how you would break that one.

459

Josh Van Vliet: both sides with love and

460

Julie Barr: I, well, I would say I, I

would shy away from the words manipulative

461

and controlling in the discussion

about it if, if you can because I

462

think others, the partner that's having

feelings and makes them bad, right?

463

And I would say the way that I would

help them frame in the conversation

464

is, You have the partner that's

noticing the jealousy say, you know,

465

say to the, their, their person, I'm

having these jealous feelings come up.

466

Try to get down below that.

467

What the fear is.

468

I'm afraid you'll go back to this person.

469

I'm afraid you love them more.

470

I'm, you know, whatever that fear

is, have them really pull that out.

471

And, and then I think

it's important to let.

472

you know, the, the partners say,

well, this is what's important to me

473

about meeting with this former lover.

474

I would really want to, to find out why

they want to hang out with this other

475

person and then allow them the space.

476

to, to say, well, I can pause for now.

477

I don't have to do it this week.

478

We can stay in this conversation.

479

We can see if you can get to a place

where you feel comfortable about it,

480

because I want to honor our relationship

and honor your feelings, right?

481

I think, I think it's important, you know,

for The person who's feeling the jealousy

482

to really think about not controlling

their partner and how Enriching it

483

could be to their relationship if their

partner went on this visit with a former

484

lover and came back to them, came home

to them, and came back to them and

485

reassured them that everything's fine.

486

This is all I needed to

work out with this person.

487

You know, maybe, maybe they needed closure

on a relationship piece or something.

488

You know, you never know what it is.

489

But allowing them the richness of

sitting with the fear and then coming

490

back and being reassured afterwards.

491

That might be the way I would have

that conversation with a couple.

492

Um, again, trying not to make

people wrong for their feelings.

493

And trying not to make people wrong

for wanting to do what they want to do.

494

But acknowledging all the pieces of that.

495

Jessica Engle: Yeah, again, I just,

my whole system so, feels so soothed

496

hearing how much you're holding

both sides with love and tenderness.

497

And I, I'm also just wondering

about, I'm imagining in some of those

498

situations, some of those relationships,

499

You, these couples encounter

potentially a deal breaker.

500

I know I've been in those

relationships where my partner

501

seemed to need to control my actions.

502

And that wasn't working for me.

503

So I'm just wondering when you have

these conversations with couples,

504

Josh Van Vliet: conversations with

505

Jessica Engle: often do you find it

kind of goes to, Deal breaker territory

506

versus the tools that you have

really allows you to work it through.

507

Josh Van Vliet: territory

508

Julie Barr: I don't know if

I have percentages for you.

509

Anecdotally, I would say majority of the

time people can come to an agreement.

510

Where they both feel comfortable

with a place to move forward.

511

Oftentimes when they hit deal breakers it

usually ends pretty poorly, I have to say.

512

Like either they realize that they're

not, um, in a relationship that they

513

want to be in with one another, that

they, you know, they have entered into

514

agreements that are not working for them.

515

And if they can't find new

agreements, then they need to move on.

516

But I think majority of the time,

and if I had to pick a percentage,

517

I'd be like 95 percent of the time,

518

Jessica Engle: Wow.

519

Julie Barr: folks can come to

a place where they both feel.

520

I mean, I just want to add a caveat here.

521

Like.

522

There are times in relationships

where we feel uncomfortable and

523

that's actually not a bad thing.

524

And we, and oftentimes we

are working through that.

525

You mentioned Josh earlier, old patterns,

old history, like trauma, you know, we.

526

We are working through that old trauma and

growing from it and and pushing our edges

527

a little bit in order to learn, right?

528

So I think that could totally be a

place where folks actually push their

529

edges a little bit and end up growing.

530

Josh Van Vliet: If we are never

uncomfortable in relationships, we'll

531

never have a long term relationship.

532

I mean, it's just like, it won't work.

533

And I ask this because it's coming from,

from experiences I've had in my life where

534

I think I, or maybe my partner at times

535

Jessica Engle: was

536

Josh Van Vliet: trying to be in it

when we were really both outside

537

of our window of tolerance, right?

538

There's like kind of a level of

discomfort that we could tolerate.

539

And then there was like.

540

You know, a partner feeling so, so

anxious that, you know, she was like

541

basically throwing up at the thought of

me spending time with a female friend.

542

I think looking back, like, In

the moment, I don't know that

543

I had the clarity to be like,

Oh, this is a sign that we need

544

different things in relationships.

545

Um, but I think looking back on it with

everything I've learned, it's like,

546

Oh, there's like a level of anxiety

that would have been tolerable where we

547

could have had those conversations and

worked out like, Oh, yeah, there's a

548

way to make agreements where I'm still

able to connect with the people that

549

are important to me while, you know,

helping you you know, not feel incredibly

550

anxious about, uh, what's happening

there and helping soothe or work with

551

whatever is coming up for you around that.

552

And then there's like, okay,

it's just not tolerable for you

553

for me to be doing these things.

554

And then we're in deal breaker

territory where it's like we're

555

outside of where we can actually

grow because we're almost just re

556

traumatizing each other at that point.

557

Is

558

Julie Barr: Right.

559

Jessica Engle: each other in that way.

560

Is that,

561

Josh Van Vliet: yeah,

562

I'm just curious your thoughts.

563

Julie Barr: Well, and taking a page from

the non monogamous you know, not that

564

there's actually a book out there, but,

um, from the non monogamous rule book

565

you know, when, when folks are doing non

monogamy, um, if my partner is seeing

566

someone else I consider that person.

567

a metamor.

568

And, and the word amor is in there.

569

You know, I'm, I'm, I'm also loving

that person as my partner's partner.

570

And thinking of that metamor, if I'm going

to truly love them, I want to know them.

571

I want to know who they are.

572

So pulling it back to your

situation with your partner.

573

Like if you want to go see

somebody that they feel really

574

insecure and that anxious about.

575

Maybe they need to get

to know that person.

576

Maybe they need to spend time with

you and that person together first

577

and find out that they're not as

scary as they think they are, right?

578

That's such a, such a grounding piece

of relating to someone human to human

579

is very different than relating to

the image we have of them in our head.

580

So so taking a, taking, you know,

the non monogamy, non monogamy, um,

581

facets can really be supportive of

helping us feel better about our

582

relationships with other people.

583

So, and I think of it kind of

as exposure therapy, right?

584

Josh Van Vliet: Yes,

585

Julie Barr: helping little, taking

tiny little steps to get to the point

586

where you could get there and how

honoring of your relationship to take

587

those steps and really support your

partner to feel okay with it, right?

588

Josh Van Vliet: that's brilliant, Julie.

589

I love what you're saying.

590

It's, it's such a concrete and and

practical approach to something that

591

can feel very overwhelming or scary.

592

And and, and like you're saying, honoring,

it's like you're, you're building trust

593

in the relationship because you're not

doing something on either end that without

594

agreement with each other, you're like

being clear, you're being transparent,

595

you're doing what you said you would do.

596

And it's like, okay, we can

see this person together.

597

And that, uh, building that

connection with the relationship

598

with the other partner.

599

Yeah.

600

It's so scary.

601

Like the, the,

602

Jessica Engle: the

603

Josh Van Vliet: we have of somebody in our

heads, 99 percent of the time, far scarier

604

than who the person is in reality and

what the relationship is like in reality.

605

Jessica Engle: reality.

606

Julie Barr: Yes.

607

Yes.

608

And, and seeing, you know, it's easy to

say, I don't want you to see this object.

609

Um, as opposed to seeing them as a

real human being, thinking, breathing,

610

loving, having their own feelings.

611

Right.

612

Um, and they may connect on a level where

they, Oh, we've dated the same person.

613

You know what this person is like.

614

We can actually have some conversations.

615

Jessica Engle: Exchange some pro tips.

616

Julie Barr: Yeah, exactly.

617

Mm

618

Jessica Engle: Yeah, I was thinking

earlier about there's some quote

619

that is along the lines of the worst

things that have happened in my life

620

have happened in my imagination,

621

Julie Barr: hmm.

622

Jessica Engle: right?

623

So just getting that like real life

experience to counter the mind's,

624

you know, inherent capacity to

imagine all of the worst things.

625

The other thing I was thinking about,

I love this concept of the metamore,

626

and I think in a moment we're going

to move towards compersion, because I

627

imagine those two things are connected.

628

Julie Barr: Oh, yes.

629

Jessica Engle: I'm thinking about even in

monogamous relationships, I think a lot

630

of monogamous Couples struggle with thirds

that aren't people or romantic partners.

631

So things like hobbies or

substances or work or even children.

632

Julie Barr: Mm hmm.

633

Jessica Engle: And so I'm just

thinking about like applying

634

that to those kinds of thirds.

635

So for example, if you're feeling

jealous of your partner going I don't

636

know what, axe throwing twice a week.

637

Maybe part of the work is, uh, getting

more in love with axe throwing.

638

I know this is a really

ridiculous example.

639

Julie Barr: it's a fabulous,

it's a fabulous example.

640

Yes.

641

Jessica Engle: Yeah, just like, becoming

a lover, a fan of the same thing.

642

Not necessarily that you have to

go axe throwing twice a week, but

643

like, getting curious about it.

644

Julie Barr: Yeah, maybe watching some

YouTube videos to see what the heck your

645

partner is doing when they're out there.

646

Jessica Engle: Right.

647

Yeah.

648

Julie Barr: Yeah.

649

I mean, I, I appreciate

you bringing that up.

650

Cause I, I was thinking a lot about that.

651

Even in monogamous relationships,

we, we get jealous of our partner

652

doing things outside of us.

653

What do you, you know?

654

Boys night out, girls night

out, those sorts of experiences.

655

Spending time with close friends that

your partner may not be close to.

656

And, uh, you know, perhaps for

whatever reason they may or may

657

not get along with that person, but

being able to say to your partner, go

658

have a good time with your friends.

659

I really don't want to hang out

with them because you all just sit

660

around and drink alcohol and I'm not

into that, you know, whatever it is.

661

And have joy around that is it's just,

it's such a spacious place to be.

662

I think the, I like the word spacious,

like my, I'm open to you having your own

663

experiences and being independent from

me and having that and, and my joy in

664

your independence from me is big, right?

665

Um, One of the things that I think

about with all of that in whatever

666

type of relationship style you're in

is that spaciousness comes from having

667

the capacity to be spacious, which

comes from being resourced, right?

668

Ways that we resource ourselves personally

with our self care practices, but also

669

being resourced in the relationship.

670

Am I feeling good with you?

671

Did we have a fun date night last night?

672

Did we have awesome sex?

673

Did we have, you know, a lovely

dinner where you made dinner for

674

me after work when I was exhausted?

675

Is, you know, am I resourced?

676

It's so much easier to be spacious

and compersive, loving your

677

partner's joy if you are resourced

and have that spaciousness.

678

Yeah.

679

Jessica Engle: Beautiful.

680

Well, we are already naturally

moving into our next question.

681

What is compersion?

682

So you just gave us the definition,

but I want you to give it to us again.

683

What is compersion?

684

Tell us, give us the, the overview.

685

Julie Barr: Overview of compersion.

686

Um, I think of compersion when I

think of compersion, I, I like to

687

link it to the concept of compassion.

688

Um, I, and, and particularly in the

realm of Buddhism, there's a word

689

called mudita, which is also compersion,

which is joy in someone else's joy.

690

And it's similar in that in compassion,

you see someone who is grieving,

691

sad, having a really hard time,

and you feel that feeling for them.

692

You feel sad, you feel grief,

you feel their pain, right?

693

Comparison is the opposite.

694

You see, well, not opposite, but I

don't like to think of it as opposites,

695

but similar, different emotion.

696

I see, uh, you know, you, I

come back to the example of the

697

mother and the child, right?

698

I see my child playing on the

playground, having a wonderful time.

699

I can be joyful seeing their joy, right?

700

Oh my gosh, my kid's having

such a beautiful time.

701

In adult relationships, my partner

just won this big award for

702

some awesome work achievement.

703

I feel joy that they have

won this award, right?

704

And And in the non monogamous world,

um, we, we use it around if we see our

705

partner having lovely relationships with

other people and getting a lot from it,

706

we feel the joy that they are feeling

and feel happiness for them, right?

707

Not everybody can do it and

it's not an expectation.

708

But it is a beautiful

experience when you can have it.

709

Jessica Engle: It is beautiful.

710

I can feel my heart kind of

light up as you describe it.

711

And I think it's so interesting

what you're saying about

712

not everyone can have it.

713

So what I'm hearing in that is it's not

like a, it's not like inborn to everyone.

714

It's not going to automatically

come with a certain amount of work.

715

It's.

716

Maybe a beautiful thing

to lean into if you can.

717

Josh Van Vliet: lean into if you can.

718

Yeah, I appreciate

719

Julie Barr: Yeah.

720

I mean,

721

Josh Van Vliet: if you start to say,

722

Julie Barr: think similar

to compassion, compassion

723

Josh Van Vliet: joy for me.

724

Julie Barr: is helpful

to the person feeling it,

725

Josh Van Vliet: tricky dynamics there.

726

Julie Barr: It's not necessarily

something that you do for the

727

other person in your partnership.

728

I, as you know, as a, as a

partner, if my partner feels joy

729

in my relationship, that's great.

730

I'm so happy for them, but I don't need

them to do it in order for me to feel joy.

731

Right.

732

And so I think compersion is a

practice that's really helpful

733

for the person who feels it.

734

Um, and so You know, it's, it's actually

about helping yourself feel better.

735

And I just, I kind of want

to make that distinction.

736

Like it's not a requirement.

737

In any relationship, to

feel joy for your partner.

738

It's not it's not necessarily something

you have to work towards, but gosh,

739

it is a beautiful place to end up, and

it feels so much better than jealousy

740

or fear or, um, even nothing, right?

741

Jessica Engle: Yeah, I appreciate

that frame because I can see how if

742

you start to say, well, you know, you

really should be feeling joy for me.

743

You start to get into some

really tricky dynamics there and

744

that's a very tall order, right?

745

We can't control what we feel per se.

746

Julie Barr: When I work with

couples who are in non monogamous

747

relationships and they are struggling

with jealousy, Or even envy, you know,

748

wanting what the other person has.

749

You know, oftentimes there's disparity.

750

You know, people go into open

relationships and then it kind of

751

like dating world for single folks.

752

There's no telling how

quickly you'll meet somebody.

753

There's no telling how many people you'll

meet that are actually good matches.

754

And Dating as a non monogamous person, you

know, you might have you and your partner

755

each have one other person you're dating.

756

One might have three and

the other one only have one.

757

And, and it can feel a little

unbalanced and someone might feel

758

envy or, um, just feel like it's a

lot of work to, to support the other

759

person, um, with their relationships.

760

And so the, the thing, the place where

we talk about compersion in there is.

761

As the, the person on the other side,

seeing your metamors, getting to know

762

your metamors and being able to feel that

compersion actually helps settle that sort

763

of disparity a little bit because you feel

involved, you feel included, you are, um,

764

it is a, it is a part of the relation,

you're a part of the relationship.

765

And I, and I think that's where compersion

gets most beautiful, is feeling like, oh,

766

I'm included in this and, and it's, I'm

getting love out of it as well, even if

767

it's coming from my own internal sources.

768

Yeah.

769

Josh Van Vliet: can feel how that

would make such a big difference of,

770

especially what you're saying about

feeling included in what's happening,

771

even if, you know, it's kind of

tangentially or, or indirectly, uh,

772

that, you know, some of the most painful

experiences I think we have as human

773

beings is feeling excluded from a

774

group, from a from a person, from a

relationship, from whatever it is.

775

And so even, it's like, okay,

I'm a part of this, I'm not being

776

left behind, not being left out.

777

Even if they're off having, you know,

three other partners, whatever it is, uh,

778

that makes a lot of sense to me that that

would help kind of settle the anxiety,

779

settle the, the, whatever might be

coming up and help provide some security.

780

Even if there's a disparity

currently in, in who you're dating.

781

Julie Barr: Right.

782

Right.

783

And bringing it back to your axe

throwing, um, example, you know,

784

watching the YouTube so you understand

what axe throwing is even about being

785

able to ask questions when they come

home, like, that are informed can have

786

that person feel more included, right?

787

And, and, and they'll find

that compersion easier if.

788

They actually know what they want to

talk about with, with their partner.

789

Right.

790

So similar in relationships that,

you know, having information

791

sometimes is all you need.

792

And I think, you know, just to kind of

bring it back to the jealousy, it's one

793

of the, when we talk about strategies.

794

Um, one of the strategies can be

just knowing what you need from

795

the other person to settle your

system and maybe find that joy.

796

Do you need information?

797

Do you, do you need to hear reassurance?

798

Do you need to know a little

bit more about this person?

799

Do you need to meet this person?

800

You know, do you?

801

Yeah, knowing what you need can

be really helpful for moving

802

from jealousy to compersion.

803

Mm Mm hmm.

804

Josh Van Vliet: Is there a, a way that

you help people distinguish between,

805

I don't even know the way, quite

the right way to frame it, but like,

806

something that I need for me versus

807

Jessica Engle: trolling

808

Josh Van Vliet: controlling your

behavior to take care of my needs, right?

809

Like, I feel like there's some ways,

like, at the extremes, I think it's

810

pretty obvious, um, but I, I feel

like maybe there's some, some middle

811

area where it might get fuzzy.

812

Like, even the example you

were giving earlier, right?

813

I'm like, oh, I'll, I'll, I'll

hold off on seeing this person, you

814

know, for a little while until we've

had a chance to talk more, right?

815

There's Or, or ask, maybe, maybe a

better kind of frame of that is asking

816

will you hold off on seeing this person

for a little while until I've had a

817

chance to process this more with you

or with my therapist or, you know,

818

talk to my friends, whatever it is.

819

Jessica Engle: Yeah, I'm

820

Josh Van Vliet: curious how, how,

how you help folks navigate kind

821

of making that internal distinction

because I think it's not always

822

clear kind of what is, what's what.

823

Julie Barr: Mm hmm.

824

I really, I really like, um, I mean,

you, you, you basically hit on it

825

when you were just saying it now.

826

Um, I really like

distinguishing the language.

827

You know, I, I think we all know at

this point in the relationship world

828

language just ends up being so important

in our conversations about relationship.

829

And so being able to say,

can you do this for me?

830

Um, my ask is this, my request

is this, and then being prepared

831

to hear yes or no is crucial.

832

Without it being, you can't do this.

833

I, I think it's, I think it's okay

to say, I don't want you to do this.

834

But then that needs to be followed

with a, I don't want you to do this.

835

Can you do this?

836

Right?

837

So really, modifying your language

to be asking for something that

838

you need, um, and then your

partner gets an aside, right?

839

So in the situation that we

discussed earlier, can you

840

pause on seeing this person?

841

Yes, I will wait two weeks, you

know, like really the partner

842

figuring out what feels acceptable

for them in order to honor their

843

relationship with their partner, right?

844

And then That person needs to be ready to

accept that, no, I don't want to pause,

845

or, no, I can't pause because they're

only in town for two more days, and I

846

want to see them before they go, but we

can talk about it afterwards, or, and you

847

can come with me, or, you know, there's,

there's a place where you get to negotiate

848

that, and then it's not controlling.

849

Josh Van Vliet: Mm.

850

Julie Barr: If it's a negotiation

and you're doing it together, right?

851

And it feels like teamwork.

852

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, that's beautiful.

853

That's, that's, that helps, I think,

make it a pretty clear distinction

854

between telling you can't do

this versus talking about, here's

855

what I'd like, can you do this?

856

You know, what might you need

from me in order to do this?

857

Or is there a way that we can?

858

Because, you know, I think part of where

my question comes from is like, there's

859

some underlying need a lot of the time.

860

underneath the kind of like, can you

not see this person for two weeks?

861

And, uh, sometimes we can get to

that quickly and sometimes we can't.

862

And sometimes it's like,

I don't know what that is.

863

Uh, um, and, and, and in, in the

negotiation, maybe we discovered

864

like, oh yeah, what I, what I really

need is to just like, go with you.

865

And that will provide whatever the

security or the sense of safety

866

that I, that I was really wanting.

867

Um, where my original request to have

you not see them was coming from.

868

And there's a different way

to get that need satisfied.

869

And so it sounds like even in the, even

if we don't necessarily know what that

870

initial underlying need is exactly,

the negotiation might help us get there

871

in a way that's going to work for both

of us if we're both willing to, to

872

negotiate rather than try to dictate.

873

Jessica Engle: negotiate

rather than try to

874

Julie Barr: And as Jessica

pointed out earlier, that stance

875

of curiosity is just so crucial

for, for being able to get there.

876

Cause I, I know oftentimes in that

conversation when it first comes up and

877

the, you know, you get activated with your

feelings of jealousy and, and all that

878

fear is swirling around inside of you.

879

You can't think through what you

880

Josh Van Vliet: Mm hmm.

881

Yeah.

882

Julie Barr: It's, it's just,

it's not available, right?

883

So the, the language and the

conversation that you can have

884

around what, what's going on for you,

what, what feelings are coming up?

885

How can I help?

886

What can we do to change this?

887

Eventually you, your regulatory system

might let you get to the place where

888

you can think about what you might need.

889

Yeah.

890

Mm hmm.

891

Jessica Engle: Yeah, yeah, I'm really

hearing in there, in addition to the

892

stance of curiosity, there's a real

commitment to the other person's autonomy,

893

and to consent, and to, uh, co creation,

to a two person psychological system.

894

And I can imagine an instance where

somebody uses the right words, which I'm

895

putting in quotes, but the energy behind

it is, no, no, no, I need you to do it

896

the way that I need you to do it, right?

897

Julie Barr: Right.

898

Jessica Engle: Yeah, so I'm just,

I'm appreciating that real clear,

899

what I'm hearing is a clear, um,

dedication to both parties well being.

900

Josh Van Vliet: well said.

901

Win win for everybody.

902

Julie Barr: win.

903

Yeah.

904

Yeah.

905

And, and even, I mean, I think

historically, um, monogamous relationships

906

have not been created for autonomy.

907

Josh Van Vliet: Right.

908

Julie Barr: And so

909

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah,

910

Julie Barr: that's why our divorce

rates in the United States are still

911

Since the seventies sitting around 50%.

912

So, you know, we, um, are more and

more recognizing that it's important

913

to you know, I don't, I don't know how

often you hear this phrase, but to be

914

a enthusiastic, yes, to being in the

relationship and And that autonomy

915

helps us find our enthusiastic yeses,

um, for each other, which I think it

916

just creates such a much more rich and

loving relationship than feeling alone.

917

Like you're forced to be there.

918

Yeah.

919

Josh Van Vliet: well said.

920

Jessica Engle: Amen.

921

Julie Barr: Amen.

922

Josh Van Vliet: great.

923

Well, thank you so much

for joining us, Julie.

924

It's been such a delight to have you on

the podcast for this conversation today.

925

Julie Barr: Thank you, Josh

and Jessica for having me.

926

It's been a pleasure.

927

And I've learned so much

today to appreciate you.

928

Josh Van Vliet: That's all for today.

929

You can find the show notes with links

to all the resources we mentioned in

930

this episode at relationshipcenter.

931

com slash podcast.

932

Jessica Engle: Yes.

933

And if you love today's show,

go to relationshipcenter.

934

com slash newsletter.

935

We'll send you a short helpful

email once a month with informative

936

articles, silly videos, behind

the scenes, glimpses, and more.

937

Again, that's relationshipcenter.

938

com slash newsletter.

939

And if you're wanting to work with

Julie, please go to relationshipcenter.

940

com.

941

She is an exceptional clinician, so

I do recommend reaching out if you

942

felt touched by what she shared today.

943

Josh Van Vliet: Until next time,

944

Jessica Engle: We

945

love you

946

Josh Van Vliet: too.

947

Jessica Engle: Bye.

948

Julie Barr: So cute.

949

Josh Van Vliet: Blah dee da dee

da, blah bidi blah bidi blah.

950

Jessica Engle: laughter yay!

951

Julie Barr: Okay, that was great.

952

Josh Van Vliet: that was fantastic.