Episode 22 presents a profound exploration of the intersection between literature and film, particularly within the realm of fantasy. Our esteemed guest & dear friend, Koen Hardy, joins us to delve into the evolution of fantasy narratives as they transition from written form to the cinematic landscape. We engage in a rich discussion that traverses the historical milestones of fantasy in film, from early classics to modern masterpieces, examining how these adaptations have shaped cultural perceptions of the genre. Additionally, we reflect on personal experiences with literature, including the profound impact of Tolkien's works and the enduring legacy of film adaptations. This episode serves as a reminder of the intricate relationship between storytelling mediums, urging us to appreciate the artistry involved in both literature and film.

The dialogue commences with a light-hearted atmosphere as the hosts, along with their guest Koen Hardy, delve into the realms of literature and cinema. The hosts express their gratitude towards the guest, acknowledging how his influences have reignited their passion for reading, particularly in the fantasy genre. The conversation swiftly transitions into a discussion surrounding their recent literary endeavors, highlighting a variety of books ranging from historical fiction to the nuances of the fantasy genre, with each participant sharing their unique reading experiences. As the dialogue progresses, the guests reflect on their encounters with classic films that have shaped their understanding and appreciation for fantasy, establishing a rich context for their exploration of the genre's evolution on the big screen. The episode artfully intertwines personal anecdotes with broader cultural observations, providing listeners with an engaging perspective on the intersection of literature and film, while also contemplating the transformative impact of iconic works, such as 'The Wizard of Oz' and 'The Lord of the Rings'.

Takeaways:

• In this episode, we mistakenly referred to it as Episode 21 instead of Episode 22.
• We discussed the significance of fantasy literature and its adaptation into film.
• Koen Hardy shared insights on how literature influences cinema and vice versa.
• The conversation highlighted the evolution of fantasy films from early cinema to modern adaptations.
• We emphasized the importance of storytelling in both books and movies, bridging generations.
• The episode explored personal experiences with reading and how they shape our understanding of fantasy.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Game of Thrones
• Dungeons and Dragons
• Lord of the Rings
• Harry Potter
• The Wizard of Oz
• Conan the Barbarian
• Legend
• Neverending Story
• Excalibur
• The Golden Compass
• Pirates of the Caribbean
• The Three Musketeers

Sa.

All right, and welcome to episode 20.

21, 22.

We lost count.

We often do.

Yeah, we.

We lose count and we lose track of time.

But anyway, we'll.

We'll edit this properly.

This episode.

Yeah.

Quote, unquote.

Properly.

This episode is a very special one because we have a very good friend of the house, and we're going to try something different.

But, you know, let's cut to the chase.

We invited our good friend Khun Hardi, and we're gonna cover literature, obviously, but we're gonna tow in also the big screen.

And with no further ado, I'll give the word to the man himself, the legend.

Hello there, everyone.

As you said, I'm Kun, and I'm very happy to be here.

And before I start, I think a big thank you is in order, because it is because of you guys that about a year ago, I got back into reading.

Oh, see, at least we got one person into reading again.

So you changed a life officially.

Well, it was because of your various reviews, I dipped my toe into fantasy reading.

And because of all the times that Marino had mentioned the Poppy War, I put it on my list.

Excellent.

There you go.

Well, at least it's on the list.

Same as mine.

And how long has it been on that list?

Too long.

But I. I will read it.

I will read it, and in, like,.

Five years from now.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Not in five years.

I will read it.

Promise.

So, yeah, Kun, absolutely Welcome.

It's a pleasure to have you here.

And also, very much a really heartfelt thank you for a little gift which was absolutely not requested, not mandatory, not something that we had, you know.

You know, thought that we would get.

And.

And again, it's.

It's really so nice.

Such a nice touch.

It's my pleasure.

We got an official replica of the Game of Thrones of an egg, a dragon, and Drogon's egg.

So now, as the good sir himself told, I.

Now I have to get the other two.

Right?

Yeah.

I don't know, but, yeah, well, just have to see.

Keep it warm.

Oh, we will.

We will.

And it's.

It's comfortably sitting at our pod.

So, again, thank you for that, but let's dive into it now.

Obviously, this episode will be a little bit different.

I think it's still fair to say that we will be talking a little about books.

I mean, it is part of the discussion.

It is definitely part of the discussion.

And I will keep my update very short.

I finally found my good rhythm of reading, meaning that I was always A little bit disappointed in my reading rhythm and the number of books I could finish within a month started this year, very strong with like six or seven books that I finished last month.

So February was a bit less, about four books, but I found a good rhythm.

Meaning that I can alter now between fantasy, then historical fiction, then a classic, because there are so many classes that I still haven't read.

And then I go into historical fiction again, perhaps, or just nonfiction, and then I'll revert back to fantasy.

And the last book that I read, I'll just keep it to that.

The last book that I read is, if I'm not mistaken, by Annie Jacobson, which is part fiction and part nonfiction.

It's called Nuclear War.

And it's.

Yes, it's about that.

And this was so gut wrenching.

I was genuinely afraid, even, you know, 10 pages in.

I won't spoil it, but I think it's.

It's a must read, and it's definitely a must read for all politicians, period.

And we are recording this in a fallout shelter as we speak with a dragon egg.

You know, what could possibly go wrong?

But.

Okay, I don't know.

Do you have a book update?

Not really, other than the fact that I'm currently reading a book that isn't really getting up to my expectations, which is and the River Drags Her Down.

I thought that it was going to be more horror, and then it ended up being more about grief and emotional development, which, you know, great subjects, just not what I expected.

So that's unfortunate.

Okay.

Okay.

And how far are you in?

A little over half of the book.

Okay.

Okay.

So there's still hope.

Sure.

All right.

And what about you, Kun?

I mean, we got you into reading about a year ago.

Very happy for that.

And I know that you have been reading quite a lot.

I know your favorites, but what are you reading as we speak?

One of the first novels I dipped my toe into was World of Brandon Sanders.

Oh, dear.

And as you know, those tomes are pretty te.

Big, thick boys.

Thick boys.

Very entertaining, but thick boys.

I'm now on onto my third Brandon Sanderson book of the Stormlight or Archive, which is Oathbringer.

Okay, good book.

A little bit lengthy, a little bit talky.

There's that.

I'm in the final stages of the book, and now it really gets cooking, so.

All right.

It's.

It's a pleaser, but it's a long boy, so.

Yeah, and.

And that's my.

My experience as well.

I mean, I think by now you Sanderson's that I have, and I'm always happy that I do start it, because I know I will be very pleased and I'm in for a ride.

But in a similar way with King Stephen King, you have to work your way through it.

You know, it's a slow burner or at least a slow buildup.

And obviously it does pay off, but there's this cutoff for me, you know, when do you lose interest of such a big or thick book?

But I mean, up to now, I haven't been disappointed.

But there's way more to read from Sanderson, and I know that you have read more of him.

So what's up till now?

What's your favorite by Sanderson?

Well, it has to be book two.

The first one is the Way of Kings, which is a good book, but kind of functions as a big prologue to the entire universe of Stormlight.

True, you get some.

Some good action scenes along the way, but you really get the sense it's a prologue.

Okay.

Second book is where it really gets going.

More action to that one.

So I have to say, of the three ones, three books I have read.

That's probably my favorite now.

All right.

All right.

But it's an investment, you know.

Definitely it is.

Someday I want to read A Wheel of Time, but I know I'll have.

To, you know, it's 14 books, my friend.

Clear my schedule.

Go ahead, go ahead.

Enough about books.

Why did we bring Kun here?

Please enlighten.

I will.

Not only is he a very dear friend of ours, but we share something else.

You know, on top of fantasy literature and good literature in general, we have really a love for the big screen.

So we do see quite a lot.

Perhaps not as often as we would love to, but we do find from time to time a moment to enjoy new releases or even oldies.

And Kuhn had a very, very nice idea that he suggested for this podcast.

And then immediately we said, okay, well, if we're doing this, then you're on.

You need to be our guide, because he has a much broader encyclopedic mind when it comes to movies than I have or than ever would have.

So where do we start?

And how did this idea come about?

What's the idea?

Actually, thanks for the kind words.

I wouldn't say encyclopedic, but I'll certainly do my best because like I said, I am not the.

Not the.

The best in talking about fantasy novels because I've only dipped my toe into that world.

But I have been watching fantasy movies, movies in general for as long As I can remember, because it's a genre I can really appreciate.

And I thought it would be a nice idea just to see how that kind of world evolved, where fantasy found its way into movies and where we are, where we're at today.

So I've prepared some notes like a total nerd and I'll do my best to guide you.

Well, at least somebody came prepared because although it doesn't sound like that, we usually are a little bit prepared.

We do have some notes now we have like none.

We felt.

So I have one.

Good for you.

I have one.

Yeah.

Literally so much better than nothing.

Sure.

And.

And that is going to be discussed.

It's relevant.

Oh, it's relevant.

Okay, sorry.

It's relevant and it takes in on something that I know Kuhn will say.

Yes, it is relevant.

Excellent.

Well, so I'll take you to that point, Marino.

And although we have a slight age difference, I mean like a small decade, we do enjoy or we have the love of very similar movies, or at least we love the same kind of movies.

And perhaps.

I don't know if this is a good starting point, but which fantasy movie that you recall having seen as a youth really had an impact, had really an effect on you?

So the one that you really remember still.

Well, I'm a child of the 80s, you know, I'm born in 82, so I'm that old.

Yeah.

And one of the first things I remember seeing was the old wizard of Oz movie.

The old one.

That's an old movie.

Old ass movie.

It's from 39.

That's one of the first things I remember.

And then of course, you had those typical 80s movies, you know, like Conan the Barbarian and Classic Arnold.

Yeah, that's where it's at, you know.

Yeah, you had.

We had stuff like not Arnold the Barbarian, Conan the Barbarian Legend, It's a movie by Ridley Scott with Tom Cruise, that kind of stuff.

Those were the first things I can remember as far back as I.

As I can go.

I haven't seen them on the big screen, of course, because I was too young.

But yeah, those pretty much were the first things that got me hooked into the genre.

Okay.

And I'm still wondering, being 10 years older, which one came first?

My love for the fantasy movies, I think it came with that.

So I did see.

Well, I don't remember if I did see Conan the Bear Baron on the big screen.

I don't think so, but I do remember, remember it vividly.

Loved it.

You had also Beastmaster Legend saw it as well.

And Obviously at that period in time I was very much hooked on Star Wars.

You know, you had Empire and Return of the Jedi, beginning of the 80s, so that had a big effect on me.

But I'd say in about the same era I started game playing those solo adventure books which were your typical translation of D and D, but you know, in solo adventures in books.

And that got me into the fantasy genre even at that age.

But yeah, I would say that the same movies got me into loving or yeah, the love of fantasy movies.

And from here on I'm just looking at you because I can go in any direction.

So at least we have the same starting point.

And I could, you know, give you tons of other titles.

But what really interests me is, and it's a genuine question because I absolutely don't have certainty whether it's the book that inspired, you know, a book inspired the movie or the other way around.

You know, I mean for Lord of the Rings that's an obvious one.

But if we're talking about Conan the Barbarian, you know, definitely the book, definitely the book.

See, those are the easy ones.

But after that I have to think,.

Yeah, you know, the 80s was at a kind of a golden age for fantasy movies.

Yep.

Because before that fantasy wasn't always.

It was, wasn't always held in the highest regard.

True, true.

There wasn't all.

There wasn't that much good stuff out there.

The 80s were really a boom for fantasy movies and it was a kind of a symbiosis with stuff like dnd.

They influenced each other.

So could we say that we are currently reaching a golden age for fantasy series?

Currently, definitely.

You know, TV was regarded for a long time as something secondary.

You know, also actors didn't want to be on TV because you know, that's where you end up when you're washed out.

So true series are now very, very high, high in production costs, in, in value.

So there's definitely that or the golden age of fantasy.

You know, the second golden age, maybe.

Yeah.

Not only in movies, but definitely also in series.

Yeah, yeah.

For me it really feels I now but for the last, I would say I would go last 10 years.

It's really a revival of the fantasy genre.

I mean we're talking obviously about different budgets.

The capabilities of productions are way better.

Like I can immediately on the top of my head already name a few series that are peak fantasy, like Rings of Power, our House of the Dragon.

Those are really big right now, you know, because Game of Thrones really kick started that genre in a big way.

Yeah, before that, you didn't really have much of fantasy series, I think.

Not that I can remember.

That's the challenge.

I, I have to dig into my, my old brain.

I, I can't say I can recall any series within the fantasy genre that.

No, that sparked off something like Game of Thrones did, because it's really niche.

Before Game of Thrones, a lot of people thought it's for sweaty nerds.

Maybe a lot of people still do.

But that opened a lot of doors, I think.

I mean, that stereotype isn't entirely incorrect.

As someone who works in a game.

Shop, they're not sweaty.

No, but the customers are.

Yeah, but I mean, what I also have rediscovered is the.

And there we go again.

The amount of books that have been published recent over the past few years, you know.

Exactly.

On those almost mythic movies that were produced or that, that, you know, that new genre from the 80s, the fantasy movies.

And now you have like these very luxurious books on the movies, but also on the artists, because sometimes that is also forgotten.

You have many.

I wouldn't call them poster designers, although they did quite a lot of graphical art for those 80s movies.

Fantasy.

But they did the designs for book covers, but also fantasy game books as well.

You have.

I have the big book there.

Right.

Frank Frazetta.

Yeah.

I mean, that's a typical artist.

And there's also revival in that.

And by publishing these books, you can inspire a whole new generation to discover not only the art, but also having the link to the movies, etc.

So.

Okay.

It's symbiosis, you know.

Absolutely.

Movies open doors to new audiences, new generations who then go into the books and then rediscover the movies and all it goes.

I said I can go any direction apart from, you know, going wrong.

But you came prepared.

So where, where do we go from here?

I mean, we.

We've already mentioned a few classics.

We can go to the start.

Well, to the very, very start.

Oh, please do.

Because what's interesting about fantasy in film is that it finds its genesis right along the genesis of film itself.

Okay, so one of the first films on the big screen was by a Frenchman called Georges Milieu.

Yeah.

Trip to the Moon.

Trip to the Moon.

I remember that.

You know, where the, the rocket lands in the eye.

Yeah, yeah.

I haven't.

It's not gory.

No, don't worry.

My daughter is looking like alarm is.

All gibberish to me.

It's like, ah, yes, we're naming movies.

I have never.

But when you.

When you see that image, you'll probably.

I'm pretty sure you have.

You will have seen it before.

You won't have.

Maybe I've seen the thing itself, but the image.

The image maybe be.

Yeah, it's.

It's fun.

It's.

I mean, it's.

It's funny.

Even when.

When I had seen.

See, I already forgot about that movie.

Thank you.

That's why we're having you here.

Or another reason why we have you here.

I remember seeing that movie as a kid and I was not, you know, gored out or scared.

It was really.

Yeah.

As you said, it's mag magic.

Exactly.

Even though it was an old movie.

I was aware of that even as a kid.

You know, it's not the same level as Star wars or any other movie of that genre, but you recognize this is art.

And it was a fun movie.

I do remember.

Thank you for that.

Yeah.

You have to imagine.

We mentioned it earlier, but you have to see.

Think of those films in context of the times in which they were released.

So imagine the people in that theater seeing this for the first time.

It would have been like seeing magic on the big screen.

Because what's interesting is that this Georges Millet was a stage magician and he really wanted to bring that sense of magic to the big screen, which was a new form of media.

So he invented a lot of stuff, like some disappearing effects and some very early forms of special effects you can already see there.

So it's a pretty big milestone.

War, fantasy film.

It's like the first thing that's out there.

Kickstart.

What was the year again?

You mentioned it?

1902.

Okay.

So that's a long time.

That's a long time.

It's even older than us.

Barely, but okay.

We have not been there.

All right.

So that definitely set the stage, I think, for fantasy, but in the broadest sense of the word, what would be.

And I'm asking because you came prepared.

I obviously didn't.

What would be the safest bet to say, okay, this is the next milestone or the next really big one that was genre defining?

Well, you have to imagine the trip to the moon was in the silent movie era.

True.

When we were in the 30s, 39.

So we are now in the age of sound, but also in the age of color, which.

True.

So that Added a whole new dimension to seeing stuff on the screen.

Because what's nice about wizard of Oz is the first half of the movie is in Kansas, and that's in black and white.

And when Dorothy enters the world of Oz, you're in Technicolor.

So for the audience, that was magic.

That was magic as well.

Absolutely.

So that was a big milestone for fantasy movies.

Yeah.

So 39.

Excellent.

Yeah.

And we are also in the.

In the era of Walt Disney.

So Walt Disney started releasing Snow White, Seven Dwarfs.

That's right up there in.

Let me see.

Also 37.

So Pinocchio, Fantasia.

Fantasia and Cinderella.

That is my childhood.

That is your.

Yeah, there you go.

But the remakish.

Or still the original ones.

The.

The animated ones.

Honey, they're all animated.

No, the remakes are real life.

Yeah, but the original ones, I mean, they're animated.

I know.

Okay, that's what you meant.

Okay, good.

Because the reboot is not animated.

Okay.

So if I say animated, it's the original.

The real stuff.

The real stuff.

Yeah.

And what I always enjoy is that, you know, Disney became really big, but thanks to European stories, fairy tales was.

A very big part of the scene.

Absolutely.

And we covered this, I think, quite early on in one of the first episodes we recorded.

We also covered that fairy tale being really something cultural coming from Western Europe.

So.

Yeah.

I mean, the reason why Disney can stay this big, usually they have a tendency that every time their viewers seem to be dropping, what they do is they make a retelling of a very popular.

A Grimm story.

Of what?

That is his name, right?

Yeah, the Brothers Grimm.

The Brothers Grimm.

Then they pull one of their stories and they do a retelling of it.

Which is European.

Yeah.

A little sidetrack.

I mean, and I won't go too far.

But it's also within the literature genre, it's also something that we've seen just of late is retelling, but also in book format.

Right.

So you have a lot of different take on classic fairy tales.

Again, European fairy tales.

I also see a lot of retellings of Asian story stories.

But this is also, again, very recent.

Yes.

All right.

Okay.

Sorry.

People have a taste for it now.

Right.

So it's.

There's a market, and people know how to get money out of that market.

Exactly.

Fairy tales will always work because it's so instantly recognizable in all forms.

It's not only fairy tales, but also folklore that's just as popular.

True.

I'd even go as far as to say that a lot of Fairy tales are based off of folklore.

Very true.

All right.

Okay, okay.

But we're sidetracking.

But nevertheless, I think very relevant nevertheless.

So, yeah, we had Trip to the Moon.

We had Disney, obviously Wizard of Oz.

So those are already big milestones.

I totally agree.

And for the love of me, I could not say what came then.

What is the next big one that really impacted or shaped fantasy?

Well, according to my research.

Yes.

Okay.

You have a guy named Ray Harryhausen who is very famous for stuff like Jason, the Argonauts, or the several ages of Sinbad.

Yes.

Maybe it doesn't ring a bell immediately, but it does.

When you see stuff from it on YouTube or something, it will be recognizable because it's like stop motion stuff and.

Love it, Love it.

One of the very iconic scenes is a battle.

Is a group of heroes battling a group of animated skeleton warriors.

Yes.

See, now when you're mentioning it, not only does ring a bell, but I see the image in front of me.

And this was.

So this is in the 60s, right?

Right.

63.

63.

So this would be in the same era where you had actors like Kirk Douglas.

I. I just mentioned, because this was a movie I. I think I've seen like a hundred times.

Spartacus.

Not only that one.

Spartacus, absolutely.

But also the Vikings.

Oh, yeah.

See, so that's the era.

But I could not tell you who start actually in those specific movies like Jason and the Argonauts.

I have no clue.

I don't have a clue.

But that's okay.

That's okay.

At least you put back that movie to its right glory because I totally forgot about that.

I see Marino totally zoning out.

Like these two old guys talking about ancient history.

I can't talk about this.

These are all movies I've never seen.

We'll educate you.

They were way before my time.

Yeah, but that is not an excuse.

Well, you never showed them to me and I have no knowledge of them.

That's bad parenting.

Yeah, that's on you, baby girl, not on me.

Yeah, but to my defense, I know that you're more a book person than a movie person.

That is true.

So we'll keep it at that.

But nevertheless, I agree.

We should take more than a trip to Maryland Lane and actually rewatch those movies.

And even if you get this cringe vibe, because obviously, I mean, these special effects are not up to par with what is coming out now.

But Kuhn mentioned it just a while ago.

It's so important to remember the context when was this made?

You know, and what was the era in which people actually lived?

For me, that is so important, even, you know, when it comes to books, I always.

When it's classics, I always flip back to see.

What year exactly was this written that.

My elementary school should have thought of that a little more in second grade.

In elementary school, we were forced to watch this series to help us with our spelling.

And it.

Oh, nightmares.

Nightmare Fuel.

It was like this fantasy setting of a girl named Kim going to this fantasy world.

And like, all the letters of the Alphabet had been taken by this villain.

Carbonko.

Scariest doll ever.

Oh, yeah.

I hated that guy.

It was disgusting.

It was scary.

And I don't understand why they would let second graders in elementary school see that.

And that's, I think, where it all started with me not liking movies.

It all went from downhill from there.

It went definitely downhill from there.

See, I'm not the one to blame.

Thank you, educational system.

But okay, so we.

We are up to that now.

So you had Jason and the Argonauts, and you mentioned.

What was the other one?

The Voyage of Sinbad.

Seven Voyages of Simba.

What's cool about Harryhausen also is that he was a big influence on George Lucas and Steven Spielberg.

So there's that.

Exactly.

Both of those.

And again, I don't blame you if you haven't prepared, like, a full list of all his movies.

But these are actually the two only movies that I can remember, and I'm torturing my memory, but I cannot see or I cannot recall any other titles of movies from that same era.

It's totally understandable.

Am I also right to assume that Disney has remade Sinbad as well as an animation movie?

Probably because Sinbad is like a really old story.

It is the Legend of the Seven Seas.

I. I do recall this being one of my childhood movies that I love to watch.

Are you sure?

Are you not mixing it with.

What's the name, the other one?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Atlantis.

No, no, no.

It's also Middle Eastern.

Aladdin.

Aladdin, exactly.

No, definitely not, because this is closer.

I know.

I remember because the villain was one of my favorite characters.

Okay, but I can.

I can say her lines on the top of my head.

She was that good.

Sinbad, you don't have a heart.

That's what I like about you.

There you go.

Quote, quote.

Oh, all right.

See, But I don't even recall having seen that movie specifically.

I mean, the.

The Disney one.

Anywho, it's not remarkable what you say.

I don't remember many other movies because the 60s and 70s were actually pretty much a black hole for fantasy movies.

Okay.

There were a lot of restrictions, very strict rules for what could be shown on screen back then.

Really?

Yeah.

For instance, in 67, there was a Broadway musical about Camelot.

Yeah.

Which removed all fantasy elements because people.

Were not interested because that was the feedback before they.

They could air it.

Yeah.

So there was just no interest for fantasy elements.

Elements in general.

Okay.

So that's why there weren't too much fantasy stuff out there.

You did have movies like again, by Disney, mary poppins.

Sure.

64.

Yeah.

Okay.

Chitty chitty bang bang bang bang.

Yep.

68.

And in the seventies you had Willy Wonka.

Original.

The original one, everything comes back.

See Pete's Dragon.

Oh, Pete's Dragon.

I love that movie.

And Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

That is such a good movie.

75.

Classic.

It is such a classic.

I've seen that movie over and over and over again.

And I'm so happy that at least I was able to pass it on to my kids.

That's a big legacy.

Yeah.

But indeed, now, I didn't know this, actually, that there was, you know, by lack of interest, and I'm wondering now my head is spinning, was it lack of interest or was it because it was not conforming with the morality of that era?

I think it was probably a bit of both.

Okay.

I hadn't that much time to do the research what the reasons behind it were, but I guess then the climate wasn't up to it.

And what year are we talking?

60S, 60s, 70s, 60s and 70s.

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

Because from there, I mean, I'm definitely jumping a lot of movies and just stop me or interrupt me, is it then, then when we go to the 70s that see another increase of the fantasy genre, or is it the birth, and I'm on thin ice here, at least for the popular movies, do we see the birth of science fiction movies then?

Yeah, for sure.

Star Wars.

79.

I know I do not have to.

Educate you, not on that topic, but I know that as far as my memory goes, really, the 70s, the mid-70s, were really, I would almost say, golden age for the science fiction movies.

And indeed less fantasy or what we call fantasy now, because there was.

There was a lot of.

At that time, there were like many serials on tv, like Buck Rogers and stuff like that.

You know, there was an interest by the audience for science fiction, but not so much fantasy.

It's probably a thing that comes and goes in waves.

Because at the end of the 70s, early 80s, you had like an influx of, you know, novels, mythology.

Dungeons and Dragons was right up there, ignited a whole new, well, era for fantasy films.

Yeah, but not only that.

I think at that time, I mean, Internet decades later changed everything.

But I think many of the what we call now classics in the fantasy genre were perhaps limited.

And it's really quote unquote, because on U.S. soil it was really big, even at that time was D and D. But I mean, that's UK as well.

But you had like the Wheel of Time that came a bit later and I think, you know, that kind of writing.

Okay, granted that came even later, but was popular, I would say, especially in the US and it was much harder to get these hyped books to give them the same attention on the old continent.

But anyway, I'm digressing.

No, it's very true.

It's all in the same pot.

And because I have to give my noor opportunity to use her very only.

Piece of the one bullet point you had.

Drumroll.

This will be very organic.

Yes, well, Marinor.

So we are right under the assumption that it is based off of the book of King Arthur and the Round Table from Thomas Malory.

Do you know what is also based off of this book?

Tell us.

Well, there is this tabletop role playing game called Pendragon which is based off of the same story and you play a knight within this time period.

It's very historical slash mythological feel to it.

It's very, very different from Dungeons and Dragons where in what respect?

I was getting to that, thank you.

Whereas Dungeons and Dragons is.

Oh, you're going on a magical quest.

Everyone has a different race, a different class, and you're go have magical superpowers that can do so much.

You're constantly getting in contact with magical artifacts, magical creatures, etc.

Etc.

There is barely any of that in Pendragon.

It stays very true to like the base content where it is based off of magic is very, very difficult to to do, period.

There are barely any wizards or witches.

There's only one character who can do Merlin.

Merlin is the main wizard.

I am actively playing this campaign right now.

We know that there is at least one other witch, Morgan le Fay.

No, no, we didn't get there yet.

Right, spoiler.

And we barely come into contact with any mythical creatures if we want to get into Contact with them.

We already have to go to the Feywild, so to speak, which if we don't have Merlin with us, we can do on our own.

So currently it is mainly focus.

Focuses on.

We have to fight battles which are very, very deadly.

Even if the odds are like.

Like, even on either side, you can still easily die.

The odds are definitely stacked against you.

If you would compare it to Dungeons and Dragons, it is a lot easier to die even in, like a battle that is, oh, we should easily win this.

Two of the three players went down and we were like two hit points away of being dead.

It was intense.

What I'm wondering, is it then still an open gameplay, meaning the players more or less decide which direction to take, which would be similar to Dungeons and Dragons, or is it trying to guide you along the big lines of the classic story itself?

Well, in the beginning it was very streamlined.

You were a knight under a earl.

So basically we had to do what they told us to do because they're our supervisor, we can't say no.

So in that sense, it was railroading us, so to speak.

But now that we are vassal knights, we get more freedom in choosing what we do.

And how will that work?

We will get.

Each year we will get multiple quests that we can choose from.

And depending on which quests we do, that will impact the storyline.

The way that is also different from Dungeons and Dragons is you will play multiple characters because this campaign spans over like 50 years.

So your first character will die.

You have to play a descendant of your character from that family or an adopted person doesn't really matter, but you will at the very least play a second character, a third if you're unlucky.

And it also has managing stages.

Every winter you have to manage your estate, which is a lot of math.

It's a lot of math.

It gives me a headache sometimes because you actively have to make sure that your peasants are happy, that.

What are you building?

Do you have enough money?

How strong is your castle?

Because there is an anarchy period and you will get raided.

Please, for the love of God, make sure your defenses are.

Sounds like a lot of work.

Yeah, it is, but it is a lot of fun in many ways.

It is completely different from Dungeons and Dragons, as you can probably tell.

But honestly, that's why I like it so much.

So it's fair to say you actually have a preference for this.

No, I do have a preference for more Dungeons and Dragons based games because I prefer role play over managing and fighting.

But I like it so much because it is completely different.

And I've been playing so many campaigns and different TTRPGs that having, like a change.

Change.

Jesus.

A change of pace.

That's nice.

And honestly, I also got really, really attached to the characters.

Them, because you get to spend an entire lifetime with them, whereas a D and D campaign that's usually.

Oh, all of these things are happening in the span of two to three months.

We're spending an entire lifetime with them.

We are watching them get married, having kids, making lifetime connections with NPCs and the other players.

And that's why.

That's the one thing that I do like more than D and D is I feel way more connected to this character because I can watch them grow up in real time.

It's a nice deep dive into the world and the mythology of Arthurian legends.

Exactly.

Absolutely.

And bringing it back to the movie, I really remember this movie vividly.

As a kid or a teen, I've seen this movie multiple times.

I haven't rewatched it very recently, but I do recall that at a certain moment, I found the movie quite, quite tense.

You know, it was tense.

It was really tense.

And some.

Some, you know, very.

For that time and for my young, young soul, quite impactful stuff.

I mean, there was some disturbing stuff in it.

Sure.

So, you know, it wasn't a fairy tale at all.

No.

And.

And I remember with Uther.

Yeah, it was heavy stuff.

It was heavy stuff.

I'm so scared, man.

What?

We're still.

Are you looking in the campaign?

We're currently.

We're dealing with King Uther and I am so scared.

You will be afraid.

You will be.

Like I said, we can choose what we do, but the main overarching quest is Excalibur, as it is in the movie.

I'm sure we just retrieved Excalibur from a lake with Merlin, which we don't know who the hand was that gave Merlin Excalibur, so I have no clue yet.

So who has Excalibur now?

Is there really, like, a character among you guys?

Merlin gave Excalibur to King Uther and he said, as long as you remain just this sword will do what it must.

And I am scared because I know that he's not a just king.

He's.

He's so bad.

Would it actually be a. Yeah, it would actually.

Then be a spoiler to have you watch the movie Excalibur.

Well, I do.

I do know how the story goes in, like, the overarching lines, but I.

Mean, like, from how to put it more like an atmosphere, you know, just to get into it, because it really, really is a good movie, and I think it's a perfect match with the game you're playing.

Oh, it.

It definitely.

I mean, they're based off of the same book, so definitely.

And.

And I'm making another light jump.

Of late, there have been, for as far as I know it, at least two or three rewriting of the Arthurian legend.

You know, that took like, a totally different course.

One was kind of funny.

I read that one.

And then there's one I still have to.

To read it, which is also more or less a little bit of a retelling, I would say, from a different angle.

Haven't read it yet, but I'm seeing.

Seeing more and more of these mythical.

Even.

Even based on the Arthurian legend.

More and more of those.

Yeah.

Retelling popping up.

So.

Okay, there you go.

No, Arthurian legends always were pretty much part of culture.

You know, they've always been there.

There's also a lot of movie.

Movies and series about the topic, so it's something that.

That always comes back.

Yeah, even, you know, Disney had also Merlin.

Right.

So, sure, that's one.

Yeah.

You.

You haven't seen it?

No.

But in which movie does Disney have Merlin?

I think it's called the Wizard's Apprentice.

It's called the Wizard Apprentice.

Indeed.

It's a one.

Yeah.

But.

But is it the same?

Because there's this other one that is with.

I think it's Mickey Mouse.

Well.

As well, where he's an apprentice.

So the.

The Magician's Apprentice.

Wouldn't that be a Fantasia?

Yeah, yeah, that's Fantasia.

Getting it mixed.

That is Fantasia, where you have.

And also the songs.

We have the broom carrying the broomskin.

That's Fantasia.

But you also have the one that is really the retelling or the telling of King Arthur.

And you have Excalibur is there as well.

It's a big part of pop culture.

Absolutely.

All right, okay, tell us, where do we jump from there?

Well, we're still in the golden age of the 80s, which we already discussed at the beginning of the podcast.

So you had stuff like we said it.

Conan The Barbarian, Neverending Story 84, Never Ending Story.

Right.

Which is a great movie as well.

Yep.

I mean, a bit.

I would say a bit.

Am I unpopular in saying it wasn't really my kind of thing?

Could be.

Oh, it was based off a book as well.

I mean, you don't have to like every story.

No, fair.

Fair enough.

But I mean, this is still pretty much in the middle of my youth and the middle of the flow of the.

The movies that.

That we're mentioning are evoking here.

And I think this is one of the exceptions that I.

It didn't grasp me or didn't hook me as much.

But I mean, that's.

Personal preference.

Personal preference.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That was.

That was the nice thing about the 80s.

There was something for everyone.

Maybe, you know, there was a lot of catering to fantasy enthusiasts.

What I'm.

And it's okay if we don't know it by now, but was it also based on a book?

The Never Ending Story?

Sure.

The book was first.

Okay, see, book was.

Books are always better.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, see, I'm learning.

It's a nice book as well.

So it's really.

Yeah, it has a lot of.

A few sequels as well.

So I'm learning as we speak.

There you go.

Put it on your to be rep list.

Oh, man, it's ever expanding.

Never ending.

You mean.

So many books.

So little time.

So little time.

See, I genuinely didn't know that this was based on even a German book.

Yeah, it was very big in Germany, so it was a big thing.

I think it was very successful in Europe.

Not so much in the.

In the 80s.

You mean in the 80s.

So the book was also.

It was a big bestseller.

Yeah.

Wow.

I feel so dumb.

I didn't know.

Can't know everything.

No.

But, yeah.

Okay.

How do you think I feel?

I feel way out of my league here.

Yeah, but I mean, these are way out of league.

I mean, we are old.

We're discussing stuff that.

That formed our youth.

Youth.

So we haven't come yet to the stuff in which you grew up.

And I'm sure that you know way more than we do.

I mean, the most I remember of my youth is all the Disney animated movies.

And then you had Barbie.

All the fantasy Barbie.

There's a lot of fantasy Barbie movies.

That's seems so wrong on so many.

Levels, but still good.

It exists.

Right.

It caters to a specific audience, but it instills in them a sense of.

And also based on a lot of tales that are well known.

Like the Three Musketeers.

There is a Barbie movie about the Three Musketeers.

There you go.

A lot of fashion there.

And it wasn't even about fashion.

Sure, they showed up in different clothes.

Clothes every 20 minutes of the movie.

But it was never like, oh, look at my new clothes.

It was more like, oh, look at my dagger.

Exactly.

Look at my Sword skills.

What I really liked about those movies is they were very feminist for their.

Especially for their time.

Yeah, but we're taught.

We're jumping already.

I'm sorry, a few decades, I'll shut up.

So.

No, no, I mean, it's fine.

It's.

It's fair enough because I think in the 80s it was still.

Still way less pro feminine, as would be now the case.

So.

But anyway, so never ending story.

But, but just to come back to what you said.

No, it's a good thing it exists, even if it's Barbie and it's your thing.

I was just laughing because, you know, it introduces a new generation to those classic stories.

Whatever.

Whatever media it is, it doesn't matter, you know, Know, it's so good that it's out there.

It definitely wasn't my favorite.

Even then I gravitated more to the more quote, unquote traumatic Disney movies.

Traumatic Barbies like Anastasia, which is actively about a family which was murdered and Rasputin trying to kill the last one.

It's one of the more darker animated movies of that time.

Pure family fun.

Family fun.

And those were more like the ones I liked.

Even then it couldn't be too happy because then nothing interesting was happening.

All right, there is something for everyone,.

I think that is also a very nice way to put it.

Indeed.

I mean, it doesn't matter as long as it gives you some joy and the inclination or the will to delve into more of these kind of moves and perhaps later thinking it to discovering the books, you know, whatever.

You know, whatever works out for you.

So.

I totally agree.

There's.

There's nothing wrong.

And what you said, Noah, brings us flawlessly to the 90s because it was a time of the Disney renaissance, which you already mentioned, you know, action fantasy, I'm sorry, found its way into.

Or more so found its way into animation.

You know, like Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast.

I'm just reading some, Some, Some titles now.

Or the iconic movie of Disney, which would be Snowman White.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, but.

Yeah, but Snow White was an old one.

It was one of the first.

Remember what I said about them pulling Brothers Grimm stories when they were doing badly?

Snow White would be one of those.

Yeah, but then this, this is several decades earlier than the 90s, if I'm not mistaken.

That's one of the first ones.

That's true.

That is one of the first ones.

So we're talking about 30s, 30s, 40s.

They came.

Keep pulling that stunt every time they notice.

Oh, we're Doing a little bad.

Let's pull one of the old fairy tales of the Brothers Grimm, because those are very beloved.

You can't go wrong with those.

And every time it pulls up the views.

Sure, right.

Pulled back into the 90s.

Well, 90s were mostly about.

In sense of fantasy, about those Disney movies, because there weren't a lot of fantasy films.

I mean, live action films.

You more had this kind of action movie with fantasy elements, you know, like the Mummy or Jurassic Park.

Dragon Heart 96.

You know, hook was a good Peter Pan retelling.

Yeah.

Jumanji is also the first.

Jumanji was.

Was.

And.

And I'm gonna be crucified for this.

Was Hook.

Was it with Dustin Hoffman?

No.

Yeah, it was Dustin Hoffman.

Was Hook.

Yeah.

Okay, good, good.

And.

And Peter Pan was my memory.

My memory fails me.

Robin Williams.

True, of course, Was Robin Williams.

That's a golden Ollie right there.

It is, yep.

But it's.

It's actually back in the.

In the.

And that's because of Lord of the Rings.

Yeah, exactly.

There we go.

Yep.

And.

And I always get this, well, shock, I would say, because, you know, every year, you know, between Christmas and.

And New Year, it's one of those movies that we like to rewatch, like so many people.

And I always get confronted with, when was this made?

This is several decades ago.

I think.

Yeah, something like that.

It's like.

And for me, honestly.

But perhaps because it's really something close to my heart, and I'm an old fart, but to me, it hasn't aged.

It hasn't aged a day.

I mean, definitely not, as the story goes, obviously, but even from its graphical point of view or effects, we could.

Spend an entire podcast alone talking about Lord of the Rings, because.

Good idea.

Very true.

What you said.

What made Lord rich so special was because it, you know, it reignited the.

The.

The taste for fantasy, but.

But also the movie was that good because it showed the love for the genre.

Exactly.

Very much so.

And all the details it had going for it.

So it wasn't something that was lazily made by a studio who wanted a quick cash grab out of the old Tolkien book, but it was made by and for lovers of the book.

So for me, you know, and this is no disrespect to all the classic that we have mentioned up till now, you know, from the past few decades, but for me, that one.

And it's Rightfully so, that, that you mentioned it.

It is really made as a perfect, and this is just my opinion, a perfect translation of how I experienced fantasy when I was reading it.

Yeah.

That's how I view it in, in my mind.

So.

And I'm sure that I'm not the only one who, who has that, that feeling, but for me, that was, you know, fantasy done as at its best.

It's literally how I envisioned it, how it should look, you know, when, when reading stories in the line of Lord of the Rings.

And, and to a certain degree, I think each even jumping a bit further, I think that Game of Thrones did a pretty good job as well.

For sure.

Absolutely.

And although I started reading, I mean, we mentioned this already, although I started reading the books afterwards, which I even preferred, but it's really so good and.

Opened so many doors for a whole new generation.

Yep.

And, and I mean, we, we already.

I know that I'm, I'm jumping again from one topic to another, but we've mentioned in, in previous, in earlier episodes when we talked about, you know, magic, the Gathering, the card game, how many crossovers that they did and are still doing, you know, with big franchises,.

Lord.

Of the Rings being one of them and, and, and they know that's definitely a cash cow.

That's one.

Some of them might fail and you know, I can name a few that did fail, but at least they're coming back.

And actually towards the third quarter or last quarter of this year, they're going back to the Hobbit, so they're going to do another crossover.

But anyway, I'm digressing.

So, yeah, I think that rightfully so, as you mentioned mentioned, Lord of the Rings really opened the floodgates to so many.

Harry Potter.

Right.

Coming at the tailgates of Lord of the Rings, you know.

Exactly.

And Harry Potter is for a whole new generation what Star wars is to us.

You know, I mean, personally, I know I'm going to piss off a lot of people when I say this.

When it comes to Lord of the Rings, I preferred the movies over the books.

That's okay.

I think that is still a very fair thing to say, which is an.

Exception because usually I do agree with the books are better, but with Lord of the Rings, I was like,.

It's too descriptive, too prosaic, too long.

It's very poetic in its own sense.

Exactly.

In my defense, I do really love poetic books.

Don't get me wrong.

Love me a poetic book.

But there is poetic and there is.

You don't need two pages to describe a bench.

Plus, I was 15 when I read the books.

Well, you know, I mentioned this already when I first read Lord of the Rings.

It really felt like almost a task.

And I'm not even sure that I finished all three of them.

So a few years ago, reread them.

And then I really enjoy them, which I'm sure that in.

In the coming years, I will definitely reread them.

Absolutely.

I know this.

I do know that I wasn't really a big fan of Lord of the Rings, the books I stopped reading.

Halfway through the last book.

I was like, actually, never mind.

I don't care anymore.

You know, I don't care.

I don't care what happens to this ring no more.

It's like I saw the movie.

Movie.

It's okay.

Whereas the Hobbit.

I adored reading the Hobbit.

But it's a shorter book as well, and it's only one.

That is true.

But from start to finish, that felt like, this pace is so good and you're not constantly sitting around sipping tea and discussing the plan instead of doing the plan.

Just the pace felt a lot more natural to me in that book.

True, true.

I can relate.

Absolutely.

I mean, I would love to dive into the.

More.

Do you still have, like, one more or.

No, we're actually pretty much up to date.

You know, like, I mentioned Harry Potter and then you have stuff like a few more names.

Okay.

Narnia, Aragon.

Gold Compass.

The Pirates and Caribbean.

The Pirates of the Caribbean.

And then we're up to.

I love the Golden Compass.

That's so.

Except.

Very good.

Very good series.

See, I don't even recall having seen the movie.

I mean, the first one.

Yes.

But after that, I don't recall having seen.

There's a series.

No, I know, but just the first movie.

That's what I recall seeing.

To backtrack to the movies that I saw during my childhood, like the Barbie movies.

When I first came into contact with a lot of fairy tales, it was through Barbie movies.

Like the Nutcracker Record.

That was a Barbie movie.

Really?

Yes, it was.

She cracks nuts.

She cracks the Three Musketeers.

Rapunzel.

Which, yes, came before Tangled.

Thumbelina.

I know.

There is an island princess.

The Barbie and the 12 dancing princesses.

Barbie in the Red Dancing Shoes.

I came into contact with so many fairy tales that are well known through Barbie movies.

Yeah, it's totally cool.

When I was a child and only like later when I got older, I realized, oh, these.

These weren't like original Barbie movies.

These were actual fairy.

No.

Okay.

At the time I didn't know that.

I just thought, these are Barbie tales.

No, they're actual fairy tales, and they use those for children movies, which is amazing.

See, it doesn't really matter what gateway into you you get through to get to those, you know, old tales and mythology because they're so diverse, but it just matters that you get to them.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, I would say on that note, because we're already one hour in.

Sorry, but.

No, no, no.

I mean, and there's way more to cover and I mean, I think the only right thing to say is that you'll have to come back, so maybe.

Then we can properly talk about my childhood.

We're still only in the.

We're getting there.

We're getting there.

We're getting there.

We'll do an entire podcast about Barbie.

Yeah, well, okay, no comment there.

But.

And, And I think.

Well, I'm sure we just scraped the surface.

We.

We mentioned a few gems.

We.

We mentioned a few milestones in, in cinematography.

So there's so much more to dive into.

Because what I.

What I really like to know whether, you know, on so many books and movies is which came first, you know, and which was inspired by what or by whom.

And.

And that's also the part where you can then discover the.

The original one.

So definitely, I'm putting the.

I. I forgot his name.

The German.

The Never Ending Story.

Yeah, I. I might read it in English, though, But.

But I'm.

I'm definitely putting that on my list because.

Great book.

Say.

Okay, well, you got me convinced, so it was really a pleasure having you.

It was a pleasure being here.

We.

We absolutely didn't want to put you on the spot by having done all the research, and we just, you know, we just wait.

But we would love to.

To have you back and, and do a little.

A little bit more scraping and delving more into detail and yes, we'll come to your era of childhood.

Yes, I can finally talk then for the sequel.

All right, thanks a lot.

Thanks again.

My pleasure.

This concludes our episode, so until next.

Time, stay enchanted, stay cured, and keep the fantasy alive.