To mark 'Eating Disorder Awareness Week', I'm joined by Hope Virgo, who chats to me about navigating pregnancy with an eating disorder.  Hope is an author and multi award winning campaigner. In 2018, Hope launched the #DumpTheScales campaign, which put eating disorders on the Government's agenda. Since then it has gone from strength to strength making change happen on a national scale, including a national march taking place in London on 22nd April 2023.

This episode was recorded last spring - since then, I'm happy to report that Hope had a beautiful healthy baby boy, who has been accompanying her on much of her campaigning work. Both he and Hope are doing well.

*TRIGGER WARNING: *Disordered Eating and very brief mention of Sexual Abuse*

IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:

[00:00] Teaser quote.

[02:35 ] Introduction to Hope Virgo.

[04:58] Hope's eating disorder - a coping mechanism for childhood trauma.

[06:44] The pressure put on women when they are pregnant.

[08:51] What prompted Hope's eating disorder.

[12:11] What support might be available for Hope after having her baby.

[13:01] Breastfeeding pressure.

[17:30] The need to be your own advocate.

[19:06] Eating disorders affect more people than you think, many of whom suffer in silence.

[20:38] Mixed support - the need for education.

[21:56] Navigating eating when you're pregnant.

[25:00] Societal pressure - the size of your bump, the pressure to 'snap back' after birth, how much and what you are eating.

[31:51] The potential affect of eating disorders on fertility - loss of periods.

[33:12] Using exercise to numb emotions.

[36:32] Hope's campaigning work.

[41:23] Advice for anyone affected by disordered eating or exercise addiction.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

1. Follow and support Hope's campaigning via her Instagram and Twitter feeds. You can also get in touch with her via LinkedIn.
2. It's a myth that eating disorders are about vanity - they are much more complex than that.
3. 16% of pregnant women have experienced an eating disorder. 50% of them will relapse within a year of delivery.
4. Eating disorders claim more lives than any other mental illness.
5. Eating disorders can affect anybody and everybody - you don't have to look like you have an eating disorder to be suffering from one. They don't only affect thin people or white teenage girls.
6. You can access support and information through Beat Eating Disorders, the UK's Eating Disorder charity.
7. Find out about the Bristol Eating Disorders Health Integration Team here. Click this link to read and download their Eating Disorders Support Resources Guide.
8. Click this link to read Abigail Reynolds' guest blog for the Maternal Mental Health Alliance, Eating Disorders and the perinatal period.
9. Support and sign Hope's Dump The Scales Campaign via this link.
10. Read more here about Hope's latest Change The Story Campaign.
11. You can Buy Hope's Books including ‘Stand Tall Little Girl: Facing Up To Anorexia’ here.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share, rate and subscribe. It really does make the difference in helping others find it – which means helping more parents in need.

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NEXT EPISODE:

The One About Hormones - my next guest is Dr Hannah Short, a GP Specialist in Menopause, P.O.I. (Premature Ovarian Insufficiency) and Premenstrual Disorders. In this fascinating episode, Hannah educates me on P.M.D.D. (Pre Menstrual Dysphoric Disorder) and P.M.E. (Premenstrual Exacerbation). She also talks about her own experience of premature surgical menopause at the age of 35.

SUPPORT:

If you are struggling right now, please know that it’s okay to talk and reach out for help. 

YOU ARE NOT ALONE AND WILL NOT FEEL THIS WAY FOR EVER. 

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Action on Postpartum Psychosis (APP)

Moderated Forum, click here to find out more.

Email: app@app-network.org

Tel: 020 3322 9900

The ADHD Foundation - the neurodiversity charity

Call us - 0151 541 9020

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AIMS for better birthing.

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This email will go to a group of AIMS volunteers and someone will respond as soon as possible.

Telephone: +44 (0) 300 365 0663

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Andy's Man Club

A non-judgemental talking group for men

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Email: info@andysmanclub.co.uk

Association of Postnatal Illness

Helpline: 10am – 2pm – 0207 386 0868

Email: info@apni.org

Live chat online facility

Beat Eating Disorders,

The UK's eating disorder charity.

Help for England

Helpline: 0808 801 0677

Email: help@beateatingdisorders.org.uk

Help for Scotland

Helpline: 0808 801 0432

Email: Scotlandhelp@beateatingdisorders.org.uk

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Helpline: 0808 801 0434

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Best Beginnings

Free NHS-accredited Baby Buddy app offering

evidence-based information and self-care tools to help parents during pregnancy

and early stages of parenting.

App users also have access to a confidential, text-based Crisis Messenger which provides

24/7 support for new and expectant parents who are feeling extremely anxious or overwhelmed.

Bi-Polar UK

email: info@bipolaruk.org

Birth Trauma Association

Email: support@birthtraumaassociation.org.uk

CALM

Contact CALM

on their national helpline: 0800 58 58 58 (5pm-midnight)

Cedar House Support Group

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Mobile: 07773 283556

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Contact a Family

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Contact a Family offer support for all childhood conditions, are also able to put families in touch. Featuring a directory of conditions and rare disorders online.

Helpline: 0808 808 3555 (lines open Monday – Friday 9.30am – 5pm)

CLAPA – Cleft Lip and Palate Association

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Information and support on cleft lip and palate treatment.

Dad Matters

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DadsNet 

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Dope Black Dads

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Family Lives

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• helpline: 0808 800 2222
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Family Rights Group

Support for parents and other family members whose children are involved with or need social care services.

• helpline: 0808 801 0366
• website: www.frg.org.uk

Fathers Reaching Out

https://www.reachingoutpmh.co.uk/

Run by Mark Williams, campaigner, speaker and writer, offering support to dads.

FiveXMore

A grassroots organisation committed to changing Black women and birthing people’s maternal health outcomes in the UK.

Email: fivexmore@gmail.com

Gingerbread

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• helpline: 0808 802 0925
• website: www.gingerbread.org.uk

The Hub of Hope

A directory of mental health support around the UK.

LGBT Mummies

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Email: contact@lgbtmummies.com

Make Birth Better (Birth Trauma Support)

Email: hello@makebirthbetter.org

Maternal OCD

Peer support available, email info@maternalocd.org to arrange

Mayah's Legacy

Supporting and empowering anyone who has experienced pregnancy loss to advocate for themselves.  

Email: info@bigoutreach.org

0300 102 1596

The Motherhood Group

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Motivational Mums Club

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Music Football Fatherhood

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Muslim Women’s Network

Helpline: 0800 999 5786, open Mon-Fri 10am –

4pm with support offered in English, Urdu, Punjabi, Mirpuri, Putwari, Hindko,

and Bengali.

Email: info@mwnhelpline.co.uk

Online chat: www.mwnhelpline.co.uk

Text: 07415 206 936

National Autistic Society

www.autism.org.uk

Support and advice for parents and carers of autistic children, including support to develop a greater understanding of their child’s needs and accessing services that meet the family's needs.

Netmums

Netmums offer peer support via their Maternal Mental Health Drop-In

Clinic.

NHS

Contact your local GP surgery.

Call the NHS on 111

or contact a local NHS urgent mental health helpline

If you are in crisis, visit Accident & Emergency at your nearest hospital.

PANDAS

Helpline open from 9am-8pm every day – 0843 2898 401

Email support available – info@pandasfoundation.org.uk

Perinatal Wellbeing Ontario

PRENATAL, PREGNANCY AND POSTPARTUM SUPPORT & CONNECTION in Canada

info@perinatalwellbeing.ca

Petals

Petals offers free-of-charge specialist counselling to anyone who has experienced pregnancy

or baby loss.

Web: petalscharity.org/counsellingcontact/

Email: counselling@petalscharity.org

Tel: 0300 688 0068

PMH Support

Scott Mair is a consultant in paternal mental health and parent education, Peer support trainer. Dad,...

I think the societal pressure contributes to the internal pressures.

You start to question everything you are doing a lot more, from how

big you are to how much your bump's growing, all of that sort of stuff.

That's where society's judgment comes in.

And actually last week I was at an event and someone came into the

room and was like, "Oh, I didn't know you were having twins!"

And I was like, "Oh, uh, I'm not having twins.

I think my bump's just growing this week."

And it was really awkward and I was on the train back home and I

was thinking "Is my bump too big?

Like should I measure it?

Like, should I check that it's not too big?"

And you do start to really question things like that.

And I don't think I would've questioned that quite as much, had

it not been for comments like that.

We have all of these unsolicited comments, unsolicited remarks about

our bodies around the food sides, around what we should be eating,

about how much we should be eating.

And everyone, for some reason, thinks that they're suddenly like an expert

in pregnancy when you're pregnant, even if they've never had a child,

they're automatically the expert!

And it's really difficult.

And I think that then unintentionally creates that additional narrative

in your head where you're kind of like, "Are my behaviours normal?

Is what I'm doing okay?"

And it just adds another complicated layer to it.

And I don't think that is just people with eating disorders.

I think it's a pressure that everyone feels probably in pregnancy where

you are, you're trying to look this kind of perfect way and you don't.

And you don't look exactly like everyone else is looking.

And, and it's hard then not to be in that comparison factor where

you're comparing your bump size to everyone else's bump size.

And, and in that, I guess I've had to be very careful, particularly on things like

social media to not spend hours doing that comparison because actually it's just

not helpful for me and it fuels a lot of the eating disorder thinking in my brain.

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at

times the darkest of places.

Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

struggling with parenting.

All the stories shared here are from the heart.

These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

please listen with discretion.

Today's episode covers disordered eating.

We will also signpost you to help in the show notes.

Thank you.

This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022.

Today's guest is Hope Virgo.

Hope is an author and multi award-winning campaigner for

people with eating disorders.

Through her talks, Hope helps young people and employers deal with the

rising tide of mental health issues.

Hope is also a recognised media spokesperson and has published two

books, including bestseller 'Stand Tall Little Girl', documenting

her eating disorder journey.

Hope's third book, 'You Are Free' is out in May 2022, which tackles

issues around mental health and faith.

In 2018, Hope launched the #DumpTheScales initiative, which called on the

government to stop using B.M.I.

(Body Mass Index) as the primary measure to determine whether someone with an

eating disorder would qualify for N.H.S.

support.

Her petition generated over 116,000 signatures and was delivered

to Number 10 Downing Street.

The #DumpTheScales campaign- which put eating disorders on

the government's agenda- has gone from strength to strength, making

change happen on a national scale.

Hope is currently navigating pregnancy, which is the perfect time for us to chat.

Congratulations Hope.

Thank you for joining us today.

How's everything going with the pregnancy?

How are you feeling at the moment?

Yeah, it's quite, uh, honestly, it's quite

overwhelming in places.

I think it's been a real mixture of kind of, yeah, real excitement,

but also feeling quite scared and I think apprehensive as well

about what's going to happen.

And I think particularly being in recovery from an eating disorder

throws in a whole other kind of spanner into the works with it.

Yeah, it certainly makes things more complicated.

I think as a mum going through pregnancy anyway and experiencing the change in

your body is quite overwhelming at times.

And also can affect your confidence when you're coming from a place of wellness.

But, having also gone through an eating disorder myself- I had anorexia

for 10 years- which is something that I don't talk about actually.

I feel much more comfortable talking about PND than my eating disorder.

You know, for me personally, I found it very tricky to navigate.

Do you mind telling us a little bit about your experience with that?

I mean, I don't want to trigger anything, but just for people to gain a perspective

on, on where you were coming from.

Yeah, no, definitely.

So I developed an eating disorder when I was about 12, 13 years old, and lived

with it for about four, five years before anyone did anything about it.

I'm only 31, but back when I was growing up, no one talked about

eating disorders and kind of mental health as much as we do nowadays.

And no one really knew the signs to be looking out for with it.

Um, but at the time for me, the eating disorder was this

real coping mechanism to life.

It gave me this real value and sense of purpose, kind of distracted me

a lot, numbed a lot of emotions, and basically just gave me what I

needed out of life at that time.

Um, eventually kind of fast forward through that kind of four or

five years and I was diagnosed.

Um, I ended up being admitted to a mental health hospital, where I spent a year in

recovery, so learning a lot about food, exercise, um, but really the biggest

thing for me was learning to understand about the eating disorder and what it

was kind of doing for me and how to find other ways of coping with life.

Um, and then, yeah, kind of ever since I came out of treatment, I've been

in a kinda stage of ongoing recovery.

I believe that people can fully recover from an eating disorder,

and really do believe that.

I think for me, I've had moments in the last kind of 13 years where things

have felt really, really great where I thought I was fully recovered.

Then I've had those moments where things have felt slightly harder.

Um, and I've definitely had those moments when I've just kind of settled

and kind of thought, actually, this maybe is just what it's about.

Maybe this is where I'm gonna get to.

And so for me it's about kind of constantly pushing myself and challenging

myself to just, yeah, to kind of get rid of all of those food beliefs, to

stop using food as a coping mechanism.

And I think that's where, in a way, the pregnancy gets slightly

harder, because yes we're told what we should and shouldn't be eating.

We're told that we should be putting on a certain amount of weight, but

not putting on too much weight.

And everyone feels like they can comment on what you look like when

you're pregnant, which is just, I don't, I still don't really

understand why that's seen as okay.

But I think on top of that, you are also sitting with so many

more kind of heightened emotions.

There's so much uncertainty about what's going to happen.

And so for me, in those periods of uncertainty, in those periods of

high emotion, my automatic reaction is, "Oh, I'll just go back to those

behaviors that I did with the eating disorder and with exercise, and

it will make things feel okay."

And I know for me, I'm in a space now where I can be like,

actually, do you know what?

Although it is good in the short term to do that, it makes me

feel better in the long term.

It doesn't solve anything, but it does mean that I've had to learn

over the last kind of decade or so to become so much more vocal in

pretty much everything and everything I'm feeling on a day-to-day basis.

Gosh, you've covered so many important points there.

Um, and I'd love to talk more about how everybody Yeah.

Feels they have a right to.

Comment on your body when you're pregnant and touch your body when you're pregnant.

And I'm sure I was probably as guilty of that before I had my son as anybody.

But I think one of the, the very important things that you just raised there in

talking about your own experience is how there, there's a misconception that

eating disorders are about vanity and about sort of looking thin- there is that

element about sort of, um, the aesthetic.

But I know for me it was much more about control, being able

to control something in my life.

It was the one thing that I could feel I had a grip and a handle on.

Was that the same for you or what did it stem from?

Yeah, so for me it was, yeah, for me it was mainly around like,

kind of, yeah, getting that certainty over situations, but numbing emotions

and numbing things I didn't wanna feel.

Um, mine stemmed, I think predominantly, um, from kind of

family situations at home, kind of not really being able to navigate those.

I was also sexually abused.

Um, When I was 12 years old, and I think when you go through like some

form of abuse, you're often left with these feelings that there's something

kind of categorically wrong with you, and so you try and change that.

But I don't think that you have to go through abuse to

feel that way about yourself.

I think it could be that you don't see yourself presented on social media or

that someone makes a nasty comment to you, or maybe you don't- I don't know- live

up to the expectations of your family or you're in comparison with your siblings.

Anything like that can make you feel like there's something that

matter with you and because of all of those feelings around it.

I was like, I have to try and change this thing about me.

And it's really interesting I think, because what, like what you've mentioned

about the kind of vanity - and I do think a lot of people in society

think that it is all about that- but it, it gets really complicated.

Because I know for me, and wine wasn't about that and it wasn't about body image.

But then for some reason the body image aspect becomes so intrinsic

to the whole of the illness..

Hmm.

Yeah.

So it's then you are trying to understand, " I don't

really care about what I looked like, but yet why am I fixating on this"?

And then it's like unpacking all of that.

And then because society tells you, "Oh, it's because you're vain."

It's then like, you then started to question that and you're

like, maybe that is what it is.

Maybe it's nothing else.

And so it kind of creates this weird kind of whirlpool of emotions around

all of these different situations.

And it, it's confusing.

Yeah.

And there's a lot of shame and guilt.

involved with those, those things.

Hmm.

So Hope I recently saw some incredibly shocking statistics, about,

uh, pregnant women and eating disorders.

And I think this is a great point to sort of open up more about your experience

of navigating pregnancy after an eating disorder, but that 16% of pregnant women

have experienced an eating disorder.

So that's, you know, that's a surprising statistic.

And 50% of those women will relapse within a year of delivery.

So this is actually...

It's serious stuff.

And if I'm not mistaken, eating disorders can have the highest

mortality rate of any mental illness.

So this is something that there needs to be much more discussion about and

much more openness, and that's why I admire you so greatly in, in changing

the narrative and actually raising it in the way that you've been doing

in such a vocal and effective way.

Yeah, I think, um, I think, yeah.

I thank you.

Um, I love, yeah, I love what I do, . Um, it's a hard work, but I do love it.

But I think, yeah, I think it's, I think it's really scary actually.

And I think what makes it even more scary with things like

pregnancy and eating disorders is.

Of those 16%, I'm sure there are like thousands and thousands

of other people who don't look like they have an eating disorder.

So then get completely dismissed in that moment.

Um, and again, because of the shame and the guilt that often comes with it, again,

people won't be honest, people won't talk to their kind of team about it, or they

might have tried to talk to their team about it and then because they don't fit

into that mould or maybe they've never been taken seriously, then their kind

of consultant team within the antenatal unit might again not take them seriously

. And I think often then when you do have a baby, you then kind of.

. Yeah, you are.

I guess you are.

You are so wrapped up in it that maybe you start putting that child first, which

obviously you should do to some extent.

But at the same time, we have to make sure that we are managing our mental health

and actually making sure that for people who are pregnant, there is that full

package of support available, not just during pregnancy, but actually afterwards.

And I was thinking about it like recently for myself, actually, I.

I know that I can get through the pregnancy even if it's really hard

because I've got this kind of goal.

There's an end date.

Um, not a hundred percent sure when that'll be, but

there is an end date in sight.

Um, and, but it's that bit afterwards where you're kind of like, actually,

what, what's that gonna happen?

What's gonna happen to me?

Like, are things gonna be okay?

Is the baby gonna be okay?

Am I gonna be okay?

And I think it's in that.

Immediately afterwards where maybe you are kind of lacking the sleep,

where everyone's really excited for you and then maybe you are not feeling

as excited that you then start to really question what's going on?

What am I gonna do?

And I think, again, a lot of the messaging, particularly after birth

around breastfeeding and everything like that, it then again adds

that additional pressure onto you.

And a lot of the messaging around breastfeeding is around calories

and around weight, which not, I don't, I don't actually think that's

a helpful narrative for anyone.

But again, if you've had an eating disorder, it adds a different kind of,

kind of spanner into that conversation and probably will add to a lot of the guilt

than if you can't actually breastfeed.

Yeah.

The breastfeeding topic is something that we talk about a lot on this podcast

because it is absolutely wonderful and, you know, so good for the baby, well for

both mum and baby if you can manage it.

But there is so much pressure put on women and actually it's not as

easy as you are led to believe.

there are a lot of women who feel a massive sense of failure if they

aren't able to breastfeed successfully.

And I think, you know, having sort of compassionate and nurturing support

for feeding whatever you do and whatever you choose to do or whatever

you are able to do, it's all good.

You are nurturing your baby.

So with your team, your perinatal team, do you have support put in

place for that aftercare period?

Um, If I'm honest, I'm not a hundred percent sure yet!

So it's been, it's been quite an interesting one, um, to navigate so far.

So when I found out I was pregnant, obviously I rung my doctor, mainly

because I didn't actually know what you are supposed to do in that situation!

And then did my referrals and stuff like that to the local hospital.

And it was in my first kind of consultation, I guess, with my

midwife that they went through all my back history, things like that.

Um, at which point, um, because of my history, I was flagged as being

someone who would probably benefit from the mental health support.

The first time I tried to access the support, I wasn't able to

get it, which was kind of right at the start of the pregnancy.

I think obviously the system's massively overrun and I wasn't seen as

someone who needed it at that point.

Um, but then have had, again, had another assessment recently and I'm actually

able to now qualify for that support, which I'm very, very grateful for.

But a lot of it is kind of conversations up until the pregnancy.

And then for me, I've had to really start to think, actually, what

am I going to need afterwards?

Um, so I think in some sense I'm lucky because I, I've had a lot of

treatment in the past before, so I kind of know roughly what I need.

I don't know what it's like to have a baby or anything like that, but I know

that actually for me, I need to have some social occasions in every single week.

I need to have some sort of peer support and a space where I can just

go and be myself and if I'm finding things hard, be really honest about it.

So I've had to start looking actually at how I can set that up on my own.

I'm based in Bristol and actually here, there is, near where I am, there are a

couple of charities that do offer that kind of support straight after pregnancy.

So I've already kind of emailed those and tried to sort that out,

but a lot of it is that unknown, um, and the unknown of actually

what, what will happen afterwards.

Yeah.

How much support will I get?

And it's interesting because I was speaking recently to other people about

it and, um, I know in some situations you can get kind of, or definitely in the

past at least you had health visitors that would come and see you quite frequently.

But for some reason where I am, that doesn't happen that much.

So again, it's learning I guess to navigate that and feeling okay

calling on people that maybe are friends and family and who know what's

going on for me and know how I've been feeling and things like that.

And actually, being confident to utilise that.

At the start of the pregnancy, the best piece of advice actually someone

gave me was you have to be pushy and put yourself first in this.

So I've spent a lot of the kind of last month or so trying to be really

vocal about what I need to my team.

I think that is so important.

I think that will resonate with so many mums out there, especially

those who have given birth or are pregnant through the pandemic.

Because I think because of Covid, what was already a very stretched resource in

terms of health visits and midwives, it's even more so and you're not having that

sort of face-to-face care and support.

So I think what you are saying there about being your own advocate and really

flagging up and sort of really pushing for support is such an important one.

And it's one that sometimes doesn't come naturally to us as women, to be so vocal.

But I think that's so important.

And I think it is really awkward and really uncomfortable and I

think again, if you, if you've had an eating disorder or you have an eating

disorder and it wasn't picked up during your pregnancy or you didn't feel

like you could talk about it again and maybe because you don't look like you

have an eating disorder always comes back to like the eating disorders,

that kind of physical element of it.

I think in that sense, again, you have to make sure that you are really pushy

and know that you really deserve it.

And it, it feels really uncomfortable and it's hard as like you said, to

kind of advocate for yourself, but the more we get into doing it, actually

the more chances we have at kind of setting ourself up for success.

Definitely.

And, um, I was just gonna alert people to- if anybody's experiencing this as they're

listening, the Maternal Mental Health Alliance have put out a blog from Abigail

Reynolds of 'We Are Wednesday's Child', which also talks about these issues.

So I would definitely, um, suggest you read that and if you could give

me the information the organisations that you've reached out to, I can

put those in the show notes as well.

You make a very, very good point there, and I know it's something that with

the Change The Story campaign, you are shining a light on this, is that actually

you don't have to look extremely thin to be suffering from an eating disorder.

And I think again, that's a myth, isn't it?

Yeah, and actually statistically we know that only 6% of

people with an eating disorder will ever fall into the underweight category.

So that says kind of 94% cohort of people who will never fit

into that stereotypical mould.

And it's really frustrating that for some reason in society we

still are stuck on this image.

That eating disorders only affect thin people.

But I think again, also the idea that eating disorders only affect white teenage

girls when actually we know that more and more adults are being affected and.

Just because someone gets pregnant, it doesn't mean the eating disorder

is gonna miraculously go away.

Actually, yes, in some situations it does really help people.

And we hear stories all the time of people who make a full recovery straight after

pregnancy, which is, which is amazing, but actually for a lot of people, they

have to go through all of these mixed emotions around it and keep striving for

that kind of recovery process as well.

And I think because we often think eating disorders are something

that someone grows out of because there's so much stigma around it.

It means that people are so often just hidden in plain sight, just

suffering on a day-to-day basis.

And particularly I think when you're pregnant you're not gonna

look like you have an eating disorder, because you're pregnant!

So again, it makes it harder to even qualify for treatment

and support in that sense.

And have you found when you did reach out for help, did you find

the support was empathetic and truly understanding of what you were going

through in terms of your eating disorder?

Or do you think there's still a lot of education within the health

service that needs to be done?

Yeah, it's, it's been really, really mixed, if I'm honest.

So, uh, the first kind of midwife that I saw was really, really good

and asked all the right questions.

And I thought she was brilliant actually.

The second one I saw, um, just because of how my appointments have fallen, I've not

had the same person, um, wasn't as good.

I think she didn't really fully understand it.

And told me that I should be exercising more to kind of curb

the anxiety around the pregnancy.

And I was like, "That's probably not really what you say to someone who's

had an eating disorder to tell them to go and do some more exercise!"

So it has been very mixed and I think there's still a lot to do.

And I think quite often a lot of the messaging that we're given and a lot

of the messaging that I've been told kind of unintentionally, kind of

pushes eating disorder culture and that narrative around it, normalising a lot

of our behaviors when actually I think there probably needs to be a lot more

education across all frontline staff.

But again, cuz we're talking about pregnancy today, particularly

across kind of the midwives and in that follow up period as well to

make sure that people have a full understanding of eating disorders.

I actually think that we should probably be screening every single parent that

comes in, whether they've had a diagnosis or not, they need to be screened on their

behaviors towards food in their body.

Because the other thing with eating disorders is, it's

something you can't get away from.

In order to live, you have to put food in your body.

So it's something that you are having to battle with every single day.

How have you found it navigating eating?

Have, have you had to change your eating habits because you're pregnant?

Yeah, so I only found out kind of week seven or eight, I was pregnant.

So I had this kind of weird two months when I was pregnant, not feeling great,

but not really sure what was going on.

So I was kind of quite dismissive about it.

When I found out I think my body then kind of let itself into all

of the cravings that I was having.

And I felt I had really bad morning sickness.

From probably week six, right up until week 12.

Um, yeah, which was weird- not knowing I was pregnant and having

really bad morning sickness.

Because I was like, "What is the matter with me?"

Yeah, I thought it was really, really odd, the whole thing.

But, um, I just, I guess just the caveat that I grew up in a family where

people, we just, if you were sick, you went to school, it was one of those

things, I kind of just got on with it.

At that point, I really . Let myself actually have what I was craving and

ended up having a lot of kind of, yeah, really carby stuff, kind of really

dry stuff, just because I was like, "Actually this is what my body needs."

But yeah, like since then it has been slightly challenging, so I actually

did look at the meal plan that I'd been given kind of a couple of years ago and

spoke to a nutritionist, a dietician, uh, about what I should be eating,

like what would be helpful to eat.

And for me, a big thing was actually educating myself on what the baby needed.

So that I could make sure that actually I was giving him

what he needed in the moment.

Um, because I thought that would really, really help me to really

kind of challenge things and to kind of get rid of a lot of unhealthy

behaviors that maybe I still had.

And then I guess after that, yeah, like it's been hard.

I think I went to um, the States a couple of weeks ago and obviously

the food rules in the states for pregnancy are very, very different.

And then trying to navigate that, but also navigating, kind of eating out

and on a lot of the packets of food in the states, they have just random stuff

written, which makes you then question it.

Um, so I think it's been quite- I've had to be very conscious that I'm not

adding in extra food rules and kind of hiding them as food rules for the baby,

but actually being like, "No, this is something that I can't eat because I'm

pregnant", and kind of if that makes that sense, kind of making that distinction

between kind of eating disorder rules and pregnancy rules, which I think is hard.

I think also with the food aspect- and you'll probably know this better than I

do- but you are told, I think, to eat a little bit more in your third trimester.

So it's like, again, trying to navigate that and basically just trying to really

listen to my body and listen to what I need in those moments, as opposed to kind

of sticking to stuff quite religiously.

I think you are absolutely right when you say about sort of all these

additional rules that are kind of, you are bombarded with when you're pregnant.

And I think there's so much pressure from society when you're pregnant, it feels

like everybody has a right to judge you.

Judge the size of your bump, how much weight you're putting on around your

bump, whether you are or not- you know, your bump's either, "Oh, aren't you big?"

or "Oh, you are tiny.

You are really tiny!"

And also this judgment on how much food you are eating, the

types of food you're eating.

There used to be messages about ' eating extra' and then in the

last few years there's been "Oh no, you mustn't, that's a myth!

You mustn't eat extra because you're gonna put on too much weight!"

And again, that pressure about 'snapping back', I think was it Victoria Beckham

was supposedly on a treadmill about two days after she gave birth to Harper!

It can't be healthy.

That cannot be healthy.

I mean, for a start you've got, your core muscles, your stomach, muscles separate

when you give birth, so you're not allowed to exercise for a while anyway.

That's crazy.

But, um, yeah, I mean, do you feel that societal pressure or do you feel most

of your pressure is internal pressure?

I think the societal pressure contributes to the internal pressures.

Um, and I think part of that is you start to question everything you are doing a

lot more, and I know for me, yeah, from.

How big you are to kind of, how much your bump's growing, all of that sort of stuff.

That's where society's judgment comes in.

Um, more so than for me.

And actually last week I was at an event and someone came into

the room and was like, "Oh, I didn't know you were having twins!"

And I was like, "Oh, uh, I'm not having twins.

I think my bump's just growing this week."

And it was really awkward and like I think I made a bit of a joke about

it afterwards, the people that I was with, and I don't think it really

hit home until kind of that evening.

And then I was on the train back home and I was thinking kind

of like, "Is my bump too big?

Like should I measure it?

Like, should I check that it's not too big?"

And you do start to really question things like that.

And I don't think I would've questioned that quite as much, had

it not been for comments like that.

And I think it's like I guess similar to what I said with the midwives.

It's like we have all of these unsolicited comments, unsolicited remarks about

our bodies around the food sides, around what we should be eating,

about how much we should be eating.

And everyone, for some reason, thinks that they're suddenly like an expert

in pregnancy when you're pregnant, even if they've never had a child,

they're automatically the expert!

And it's, really difficult.

And I think that then unintentionally creates that additional narrative

in your head where you're kind of like, "Are my behaviours normal?

Is what I'm doing okay?"

And it just adds another complicated layer to it.

And I don't think that is just people with eating disorders.

I think it's a pressure that everyone feels probably in pregnancy where

you are, you're trying to look this kind of perfect way and you don't.

And you don't look exactly like everyone else is looking.

And, and it's hard then not to be in that comparison factor where

you're comparing your bump size to everyone else's bump size.

And, and in that, I guess I've had to be very careful, particularly on things like

social media to not spend hours doing that comparison because actually it's just

not helpful for me and it fuels a lot of the eating disorder thinking in my brain.

Definitely, I think so many women out there listening to this will resonate

with them, irrespective of whether they've had an eating disorder or not.

I think if you have an eating disorder, it sort of puts a whole other level

of overthinking and 'shame/ guilt' narrative on the top of that.

Um, but I do think women as a whole absolutely are affected by comparison.

And that doom scrolling when you're looking at social media feeds and

everybody looks perfect and yeah, you are- I think it was episode two with an

incredible lady called Emily Goldhill, and she was talking about her experience

of having a baby during the pandemic.

And she was saying, you know, everywhere she looked, it was images

of this wonderful glowing pregnancy.

And yet she was feeling anything but glowing.

She felt just dreadful, awful.

It is funny, isn't it?

It's, I dunno where those images come from or what people, or what

people do to get those images.

I don't know.

It fascinates me, because I'm like, "That's not what it's like!"

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we all know that's not what it's like, but yet we put pressure

on ourselves to be like that and you are like, "This is just ridiculous!"

Yeah, even seeing Rihanna turning up at events, you know, looking

fabulous in her pregnancy, but wearing next to nothing and, and you just

think like, "Oh, should I should , you know, should I be looking like that?!"

And you forget that she's probably got a team of tens of people behind

her making her look that good.

And, you know, we 're just seeing the highlights reel,

not their 'behind the scenes'.

Mm-hmm.

So you're in your second trimester now?

Yeah, I'm week 24 and a half.

Yeah.

So do you have an eating plan that you sort of adhere to?

To give yourself comfort or are you trying to avoid putting

those restrictions on yourself?

Yeah, so I did, I do have one, um, in place that gives me, yeah, some

sort of structure and routine around it.

But I try and not stick to it religiously.

So not from a kind of like restriction perspective, but I try and, yeah, like

if I need something, I'll have it or I vary it up throughout the day, so

it's less regimented, which I think for me was a really important factor.

I'd spent, when I went into hospital, I spent a year on a meal plan, and it

took me such a long time to get away from that and become- I think like

in treatment, you've just become so institutionlised that it becomes safe.

And so, because I didn't want to be like that again, I've had to

be really proactive and be like, "Actually, do you know what?

I need something now" or "I'm not hungry yet" or "I am."

It's hard though, and I think particularly when you're pregnant, it

feels harder to do that because you're kind of second guessing a lot of stuff.

But a big thing for me throughout, I guess a lot of this has been making

sure that I'm adding in a huge amount of variety into my diet where I can

and yeah, making sure that I'm still challenging it and pushing myself.

And I think one of my big motivations, even actually during the pandemic was,

I wanted to start to challenge my eating a lot more so that I could go out and

have cake and pastries and lunches last minute with my children and now this

is kind of here and it's happening, I'm like, actually, do you know what

it's a driver to, to do that even more?

Cause I don't want to be someone who can't do that with my kids.

Yeah, and I think that's a whole other sort of thing is feeding your

children when you've had problems or a problematic relationship with food.

Um, and just going back, because obviously you had a very severe

experience and it must have been absolutely terrifying being hospitalised.

Did that experience affect your chances of getting pregnant, did it

affect your fertility in any way?

Because often periods stop- or I know mine did for quite a long

time when I was below weight.

Yeah, so I hadn't had one since I was 15, which is why I think,

again, getting pregnant was so unexpected.

Because yeah, we weren't, we weren't a hundred percent sure what was happening.

I think that's the thing, isn't it?

For me, the pregnancy and being able to have kids was a

huge motivator in my recovery.

So it was something that I knew I had to keep working towards.

And I think actually kind of on that -linking kind of, I guess to periods

and kind of your hormones as well- is we are seeing so many young women nowadays

and older women too who are not having periods because they're exercising too

much and we've kind of normalised that, or we think that it's okay when actually

in those situations, again, even if they haven't been diagnosed with a full-blown

eating disorder, there's still some sort of issue around your health there.

And for me it was always a question of actually 'what does healthy mean to

me?' Is it a look or is it like actually my body functioning in the right way?

Yeah.

And did you have an issue with excessive exercise yourself

along with the disordered eating?

Yeah, so it was a massive part of my illness actually.

So over the kind of four years when I was, yeah, first unwell and then

when I relapsed back in 2016, um, again became a bit of an issue.

And I think actually interestingly, that's probably been one of the hardest

things with pregnancy is, I really enjoy my running and it gives me head

space and it gets me out the house.

But actually, like, I'm sure you know, when you're pregnant, you

can't do as much of this stuff and it starts to get uncomfortable

and you have to sit with again all of those feelings of uncertainty.

And like, for me, a big thing's been kind of asking myself a lot of the time, like,

am I exercising because I want to do it?

Or am I doing it because I feel I have to?

Am I doing it to numb emotions?

And trying to understand that a lot more.

that must be so exhausting, constantly

questioning every thought process.

You know, I know if anybody's been through C.B.T.

(cognitive behavioural therapy), that's how you stop those negative thoughts

and emotions kind of in their tracks.

But it is exhausting and that must be so incredibly hard for you as well when

you know, you use exercise as a release.

To release tension and to keep emotions in balance and then not being

able to do your supposedly healthier- you know, if done not to access,

it's a very healthy pastime running.

Yeah.

And I think that's the thing, isn't it?

When you are- we're told to exercise like certain amounts every week and yeah.

When you then can't do the thing that helps you manage that or gives you

that thinking space, yeah, it does get kind of slightly more complicated.

I've definitely had to learn to deal with that, I think over the last

couple of months and have probably spent a lot more time journaling

to try and manage my emotions.

I think it does have, it does have the same effects.

It just has it slightly differently and I don't think you get

the same rush of endorphins.

But then in the long run, it's, it's better to have all of those

other coping mechanisms, isn't it, even though it feels uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you know, it seems like you've, you've had to do a hell of a lot

of work alongside coping with the pandemic, alongside being

pregnant as a first time mum.

You must be absolutely exhausted and, and doing all the campaigning

work that you are doing because you've been so incredibly busy with

the 'Change the Story' campaign.

How's that been going?

I think, I guess my, I guess just quickly kind

of on your, on the comment about yeah, kind of dealing with stuff.

I think whether you've had an eating disorder or not, nothing can set you

up for dealing with pregnancy and for everyone it's so different, isn't it?

"Oh I'll be fine when the baby's here.

Like I'll have two weeks and when my husband's on paternity and then like I'll

get into a routine" and my older sister's always like, "lower your expectations!

It probably won't work that quickly.

You'll probably feel really awful for a bit.

Like the baby will cry a lot!"

So I think it's -, it's hard.

I think nothing can set you up for that.

And Even a year in hospital can't set me up for dealing with this.

It's definitely interesting I think to some extent.

And it makes, yeah, I guess it makes me realise actually like I need to have a

lot more coping mechanisms of my sleeve than the ones that maybe I had beforehand.

Um, and I think one of my ways of dealing with stuff, which, arguably

to some respect isn't always the healthiest way to deal with things.

And I do think it'll be interesting to see how this plays out, when I've had a baby.

But from a work perspective, actually, a lot of my campaigning, I absolutely

love it and it really helps me to kind of stay well and helps to

motivate me and things like that.

And kind of, yeah, I, really believe in it and think that people who've

been through something firsthand, I guess like you do with your podcast,

it's like actually we are in such a great position to then try and

influence change and to really help others who might also be struggling.

But yeah, I guess, yeah, in answer to your actual question,

the campaign is going well.

We launched last Wednesday in Parliament, and there's a 12 month kind of plan

with working closely with Instagram to kind of tackle various topics every

single month over the next 12 months.

Amazing.

That's such a big win.

Yeah.

Hopefully.

I'm, yeah, I'm like, we'll have to see how it goes.

Um, but I think for me it was really important to make sure

it wasn't just a one-off thing, particularly because we launched

an Eating Disorder Awareness Week.

And although awareness weeks are really important, I think again, it's like

quite often we have that conversation and then it kind of just stops.

So I'm trying to yeah, kind of keep that going and- I guess from an educational

perspective- kind of educating society on things, but then from a broader

perspective, making sure that, yeah, we're also educating like the

government on it and actually making that kind of concrete policy change too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's, it is so needed.

Um, I'm really sorry my internet dropped out just as you were talking about how

you're gonna feel when the baby's here.

Do you mind picking up on that again?

Yeah, so, so I guess, yes, I guess for me, I'm, I'm, I'm convinced

that when the baby's here, everything will be fine and it will sleep and

it'll be this happy clappy time . Um, but I also think what a lot of people

have said to me is actually about lowering my expectations during that.

And I think not putting so much pressure on myself for things to

be perfect because that's probably not gonna be the reality of it.

Um, so I'm trying to pace myself a little bit more with it, um, and

actually set myself up so that yeah, so that it isn't as pressurised.

And so I'm not trying to be this kind of 'perfect parent', with everything

going really well all the time.

Yes, that does not exist.

My God, it does not exist and that that is the thing, you know, you can be as

prepared as you can be to meet your baby- you can have done all your N.C.T.

classes, you can have read books, but when you get that little bundle

of joy home, it is, it's just chaos!

You know, everything sort of goes out of control.

So, um, it's embracing that rather than trying to fight against it.

And, And I'm sure you will be doing just the most incredible job, you

know, and, and I can't wait to, to sort of chat to you on the flip

side when you've met your baby!

Yeah, it's exciting I think.

So what, when's your due date?

22nd of June.

Oh, fabulous.

Yeah- summer baby!

Yeah, which I'm really pleased about actually.

That's brilliant.

I think it'll make things Well, I, yeah, I'm

like, it'll make things easier.

I dunno whether it will, but I feel like it'll be sunny outside, hopefully.

My son's a summer baby as well, and I do think, you know, because

you're able to go to the park a lot and you have the excuse to get out of the

house, which is really important, and just even navigating changing nappies.

You can do that in the park really easily.

You know, it's not freezing- you don't have to take multiple layers off

and everything's just, I don't know.

I, I certainly find it easier when the sun's shining and there's flowers out

so, um, oh, well, please keep in touch.

Let us know how you're getting on and I really, really appreciate

you taking time from your very busy schedule to chat to us today.

Um, if anybody wants to know more about the 'Change the Story' campaign

and the 'Dump the Scales' campaigns, how would they get in touch with you?

Uh, so the best place probably my Instagram, which

is just Hope Virgo underscore.

So on that I have a lot of updates on the campaigning, um, but also kind

of other eating disorder tips and advice and some stuff on pregnancy

and eating disorders as well.

And I always say I try and go back to everyone who's messaged me on there, um,

even if it takes a little bit of time.

So if you do message me, like, or if anything has come up and you wanna

ask anything about our conversation today, please do feel free to kind of,

yeah, get in touch that way as well.

Thank you.

And any final message to somebody who's perhaps having a hard time either

navigating during their pregnancy or in that postnatal period, who are

really struggling with disordered eating, what would you say to them?

I guess firstly, remember to not lose hope that you can fully recover.

I know it's, it's really, really difficult and it's really challenging

and it feels relentless and horrible at times, but kind of hold onto that full

recovery is possible because it 100% is.

And I think also kind of finding a way to communicate with people

around you what's going on, which can feel really, really difficult.

But with eating disorders and disordered eating and exercise addiction, if

we're not communicating, then all of those behaviors kind of start to

suck us back in and pull us back in, giving us that false sense of security.

So find someone that you can talk to and, for me it, it's normally easier to

send an email or send a text first, kind of explaining how I'm feeling and then

doing a bit of a follow up afterwards.

But yeah, and I think remembering your worth in all of this, like making sure

that you know that you deserve to have support, that you deserve to, yeah.

Have people around you who care about you.

So surrounding yourself with those people as well, and.

Finally, sorry, this is not four things.

Um, making sure I think that you are flooding yourself with the right

content and the right stuff as well.

I know a lot of us spend far too long on things like social media and even

watching the T.V., but just making sure actually we're giving ourselves

what we need in those moments.

Oh, that's absolutely beautiful advice and yeah,

you've brought me to tears!

So, uh, yeah, I always blub, in every episode there's always a bit where

I'm like, That's it, you've got me!"

and you, you've got me now.

So thank you so much Hope and good luck with everything and you take good care of

yourself and let us know how you get on.

No, I will do.

Thank you so much.

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