The Deep Waters Way | Episode 13: Refined for Purpose: Finding Hope in Recovery Ministry

In this special episode, we shift from our normal teaching format to a conversation on the front lines of transformation with my son and daughter-in-law, Wesley and Sarah Cooper. Drawing on their unique backgrounds in pastoral ministry and social work, we explore the "why" and "how" of recovery ministry—a space where scripture, theology, and the raw reality of addiction meet. This discussion reveals that recovery is not just a program for "those people" down the hall, but a universal journey of healing for anyone facing life's "hurts, habits, and hang-ups". It is an invitation to recover the untarnished image of God and to recognize that while our past influences us, the road ahead is defined by our identity in Christ.

The core message challenges the pervasive cultural and religious stigma that says, "once an addict, always an addict," arguing instead that this premise contradicts the biblical promise of complete transformation. We discuss the necessity of moving from being "in recovery" to being "recovered" through the power of the Holy Spirit, fueled by a "hope with reckless abandon" that refuses to give up on the potential for restoration. By sharing personal anecdotes and professional insights, Wesley and Sarah highlight how the coping mechanisms and community support found in recovery are essential tools for every believer navigating the challenges of faith.

As we conclude, we reflect on what it means to be "more than a conqueror"—letting God take what we have overcome and using it to lead others toward their own healing. Whether you are a family member exhausted by a loved one's struggle or a believer seeking to serve, this conversation reinforces the belief that God can redeem any life and that we all have a role to play in fostering hope within our communities.

Core Takeaways

• A Universal Journey of Healing: Recovery ministry is fundamentally intertwined with the Christian faith and extends beyond addiction to encompass trauma, anger, and unhealthy habits; we all have something to recover from to get closer to God.
• Rejection of Damaging Labels: The phrase "once an addict, always an addict" is biblically deficient and psychologically damaging; the Gospel promises that God can fully move into those spaces and make us new creations.
• Community and Relationships as Lifelines: Transformation happens through community and rapport; personal accountability and mutual submission provide the necessary support mechanisms to prevent relapse.
• The Power of Hope and Grace: Change is always possible with faith, even after repeated struggles; we are called to maintain hope with reckless abandon, trusting that God is always working to reconcile people to Himself.
• Intentional Transformation: Moving from "addict" to "child of God" requires a shift in self-talk and affirmations, as well as practical "habit stacking"—replacing old coping mechanisms with new spiritual disciplines.

Depth of Insight

• The "Refining Fire" of Discomfort: Using the imagery of Hebrews, recovery is viewed as a refining process where character defects are stripped away to reveal a person's true purpose.
• Urge Surfing and Emotional Regulation: Sarah shares the professional insight of "urge surfing"—letting an emotion or urge peak like a wave and then fall—as a skill applicable to all forms of emotional struggle.
• Disarming through Rapport: Effective ministry requires building a relationship first; people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
• Worship with Reckless Abandon: For those who have "nothing left," communal worship becomes a binding force where singing truth acts as an entry point for those seeking the Creator.
• Redefining the "White Knight": Entering recovery ministry clears out the delusion of being a savior; instead, it reveals that we are all just "looking at stones wanting bread," equally in need of grace.
• Reconciliation as the Goal: Hope for families is found in God's heart for reconciliation, allowing for the slow work of patience and grace to bear the fruits of the Spirit over time.

Featured Scripture

These passages are explicitly cited by book, chapter, and verse number within the source material:

• 2 Corinthians 1:4: Referenced regarding the purpose of divine comfort: "who comforts us so that... we can comfort others in any need with the very comfort we ourselves have received from God".
• Galatians 6:9: Cited as an encouragement to persevere in ministry: "Let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap a harvest if we do not give up".

Theological Connections

These passages are referenced through allusions, quotes, or mentioned by book and/or chapter without specific verse citations:

• Matthew 4:1–11: Mentioned regarding the nature of temptation: "We're all just looking at stones wanting bread. You we're all throwing ourselves off the temple thinking we're all that".
• Isaiah 43:18–19: Referenced regarding God’s work of restoration: "Isaiah 43 where God talks about doing a new thing".
• Hebrews 12:29: Referenced as a description of God's character: "Hebrews specifically... refers to God or talks about God as being a refining fire".
• Ephesians 5:21: Referenced regarding the necessity of mutual accountability: "Paul's instructions in Ephesians to submit yourselves to one another".
• Luke 7:36–50: Alluded to through the story of the woman washing Jesus' feet: "those who've been forgiven much love much".
• Acts 8:30–31: Alluded to through the story of the Ethiopian eunuch: "how can I understand if no one explains it to me?".
• Ephesians 4:22–24 / 2 Corinthians 5:17: Alluded to regarding total transformation: "taking off the old and putting on the new. You are a new creation. You are made new".
• Ephesians 6:11–17: Alluded to regarding spiritual protection: "Put on the whole armor. Pick up the sword".
• Galatians 5:22–23: Referenced regarding the evidence of spiritual growth: "we talk a lot about the fruits of the spirit. Those will begin to show on this path".
• 1 Corinthians 14:26–40: Alluded to regarding order and safeguards in corporate worship: "Paul has some safeguards for that".
• 1 Kings 19:11–12: Alluded to regarding hearing God in moments of vulnerability: "the still small voice."

Scholarly Context & Commentary

• Celebrate Recovery Model: The discussion mentions the framework of "hurts, habits, and hang-ups" from the faith-based 12-step program.
• The Wesleyan-Holiness Tradition: The conversation is grounded in the belief in entire sanctification, asserting that the grip of original sin—and by extension, addiction—can be broken by the power of God.
• Habit Stacking: The guests discuss the psychological and spiritual benefits of replacing old triggers with new disciplines (e.g., coffee and scripture instead of a cigarette).
• Inter-denominational Cooperation: Recovery ministry is highlighted as a space that transcends denominational lines to focus on the core tenants of "cradle Christianity" and complete transformation.

We have a few employees who have come through the program, the exact program that they're now working for.

That's awesome.

It is so incredible to see them at work every day because it's like I was sitting in your spot two years ago.

The Deep Waters Way. Where Scripture, theology, and transformation meet.

Welcome once again to the Deep Waters Way.

Thank you for joining me in this ongoing journey into the depths of faith. Today we're shifting gears from our normal teaching format and I'm joined for this episode by my son Wesley and wonderful daughter in law Sarah.

We're going to be talking about recovery ministry.

Before we get started with that though, take a moment if you haven't already done so, and follow or subscribe to the show wherever you're listening so that you never miss an episode. And if you would help us reach new listeners by going to Apple Podcast or Podchaser and leaving a rating or review.

It only takes a moment, doesn't cost you anything, and it helps improve the show's visibility and discoverability.

Now it's time to slip the moorings and head for the deep waters. Wesley, Sarah, thank you for joining me today.

I've actually really been looking forward to this interview for some time and so I'm happy to have you all here today.

Yeah, I'm excited.

I'm excited too.

Both of you graduated from Trevecca Nazarene University. Sarah, what was your field of study?

I got my bachelor's in social work.

And you've also recently completed a master's degree as well?

I did. I got that from Walden University.

And Wesley, what about you? What was your field of study?

I have a bachelor's in religion with a focus on pastoral ministry.

And you're currently involved in ministry at your local church?

Yeah, I'm districtly licensed in the Mid-South District with the Church of the Nazarene.

But within your local church you help to lead worship, correct?

Yeah, so I lead worship on Sunday mornings and then on Sunday nights is where I do a lot of my work because that's when we do our Celebrate Recovery group and I'm the main pastor for that.

One of the things that I like to do anytime we start talking about something is to make sure that we're using the same definitions, that everybody's on the same page. So Wes, why don't you start by giving us a definition of recovery ministry just so that everybody knows where we're coming from with this.

So to borrow language from the Celebrate Recovery material, which is probably what most people are most familiar with when you say, like recovery ministry, it's a faith based, 12 step program with a focus on healing, taking care of - the catchphrase is your hurts, habits and hangups.

But as I've been doing this for two and a half years now, one of the things that I've really come to realize is that pretty much all ministry comes out to recovery ministry in some way, shape, fashion or form.

Because whether you're recovering from addiction or coming out of some trauma, or you've lived life your whole life in church, there is ultimately something to recover from, to lead you closer into what Christ has for you.

I think you're absolutely right that in a lot of ways ministry itself is recovery ministry, because we're talking about recovering that untarnished image of God and recovering that relationship with God.

So if I had to boil it down to something a little bit more concise, recovery ministry is generally with a focus on addiction recovery, but in general, any type of recovery, where you search your life, you search your relationships, you search the things you're doing, your habits, and you make a inventory of your whole life, of everything in it, and go, okay, where am I? What is stopping me from getting closer to God? How am I stopping me from getting closer to God?

And what steps do I need to do to remove those things from this path that I'm on.

At work, that's step four, where we go over the character defects.

Yeah.

When Wesley was talking about how recovery ministry is not just for addiction recovery, I mean, I talk about that at work a lot too. I currently work at a rehab where we specialize in addiction recovery, but we also work in a lot of mental health.

And I tell the clients all the time, "I never struggled with substance abuse, but I struggle a lot with anger."

And so a lot of the coping skills that I'm teaching them, I'm learning myself alongside them, I'm learning to cope the same that they are just different hurts, habits and hangups.

I think that's a good point as well, that we have a tendency to look at other people and think, oh, I'm glad I don't have to deal with that. But in doing that, we tend to miss that while THAT issue may not be the thing, there is an issue there that has to be dealt with.

And surprisingly, some of the same skills that we look at in, specifically, addiction recovery apply to a lot of the other issues that we deal with in life.

I've been talking in some of the groups that I've been leading recently about feelings and emotions and one of the coping skills that we've been practicing a lot recently is urge surfing, where you kind of like let yourself feel that urge and it peaks like a wave and then it falls, and how emotions peak and fall as well. The way that we cope, it's similar in recovery culture.

And unfortunately, this has leaked into the church as well. There is this phrase or idea that says, once an addict, always an addict. Now, we've talked about that. We've talked about that before.

And Sarah, I know that recently you posted something on Facebook that touched on this. It's safe to say, and certainly, Wesley, from your reaction there, none of us accept that premise.

And part of that is because it quite frankly, defies the biblical narrative of complete transformation.

If part of the good news is not that we can be completely healed of these things that have caused us problems in our lives, then is it really good news? I think would be a good way to question that.

But from both a pastoral and a professional perspective, why is that phrase not just biblically deficient, but psychologically damaging to somebody who's trying to heal?

I mean, biblically, it's just. I'm sorry, it's just disgustingly wrong. There's not a kinder way to say it. It is just disgustingly wrong.

I've heard some form of this phrase used in forgiving yourself, loving yourself, things like that. But I mean, it also comes down to this where it's like, are you trying to tell me that you're a chemical addiction?

Your alcoholism, your porn addiction, your anger management problems, your kleptomania, your, like, put whatever it is in that blank there?

Are you trying to tell me that for the rest of your life that one thing, no matter how much work you do, no matter how much effort you put into it, no matter how close to Christlikeness you find yourself, God can't touch it, God can't take it away. God can't. God can't move into that spot. It's like we look at every other illness in the world. The common cold, the flu. COVID-19.

You get better from these. You get better and you move on. You don't sit there and stay sick forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Well, and let me interject real quick, not only those things, but let's expand that a little bit.

We go to church and we talk about problems that we or our family members are having, and we pray for complete healing of that person with the expectation that God can completely heal them. And so I think part of what you're saying is why don't we approach any other problem with that same attitude?

This is the only sickness we look at and we're like, oh, sorry, God can't touch it.

Even chronic diseases and chronic illnesses. We've seen miracles happen.

Yeah, I mean, like, it is way too frequent that we encounter somebody with something chronic. And we're like, all right, we're going to pray.

And whether we continue praying with you right here for hours or we continue praying with you over months, we are going to pray with you. And either God fully heals you of this or God heals your heart of this and uses that for greater ministry.

So even in these areas where it's like an actual permanence thing, we still look at that and like, oh yeah, no, God absolutely moves into that space and uses that for greater ministry and greater good.

But then we look over here at addiction, it's like, oh yeah, those guys, nah, sorry, you can't, you've made bad choices, you can never come back from that. I'm sorry, I get quite heated over this.

There's no faith based 12 step recovery material that looks at someone in recovery and says, hey, by the power of God, through the grace and might of the Holy Spirit at work in your life, as Paul says, taking off the old and putting on the new, you are a new creation, you are made new. There will be a day where you are recovered. I understand the initial mentality behind the statement, once an addict, always an addict.

It's so that you never delude yourself into thinking that you don't have to protect yourself. Nobody's telling you to take off your armor or put down your sword. That's spiritual, that's biblical.

Paul says, put on the whole armor, pick up the sword. I think at some point, by the grace of God, you have shifted out of recovery into recovered.

And there's no recovery material on that jump on that gap.

Certainly nothing in a holiness tradition like we are, where it's like, hey, no, there's entire sanctification where we even believe that the grip of original sin loosens on your life and you have the ability to choose not to sin anymore. And so if we can look at even original sin this way, but not addiction this way, we've missed something. We've missed something pivotal.

It's almost as if we're discounting the gospel. I think that's the way we talked about it a little earlier.

Yes, there has to be hope, there has to be good news. Because if there's no hope and there's no good news, what's the point?

I'm trying to. I'm trying to gather my thoughts because it's frustrating from my perspective too, because in the addiction world, it's like the mindset is once an addict, always an addict. And I mean, I understand that it originally started from that because people thought they arrived, they stopped going to meetings, and they relapsed.

And there's even a mindset that relapse is part of the recovery journey. And it's like there have been clients that have come through that.

It's like they were sober for a year or sober for three years or 17 years, and they relapsed. And they're just so frustrated because it's like all that work went for nothing.

And I finally looked it up because I'm like, how do I handle this conversation? And the mindset that I finally came to is it's like you run a marathon for five years and you skip a year.

All of that work that you did, all of those muscles that you built, it didn't disappear. You just lost your streak. It's really frustrating because to say once an addict, always an addict makes people lose hope.

It's like the way we talk about ourselves is such a big point to who we are. Our self talk is so important.

That's why, like, daily affirmations are a thing.

Yeah.

It's like what you say about yourself is ultimately what you believe, whether or not you believe it when you start saying it. The more you say it, the more you come to actually believe it.

Honestly, affirmations is one of my favorite homeworks to give my clients. But yeah, it just makes people lose hope because they think that they can't actually change.

I had a pastor friend that did a lot of recovery type ministry years ago, and affirmations was a big part of the program that he worked with. And I think it gets into something that I said back in episode one.

While the past may influence the future, the road ahead does not have to be defined by the road behind. When we think this way, we're defining the future based on the past.

And I think where affirmations come in is that it begins to change the definition because it gives us the ability, and for somebody who doesn't know what we're talking about, it gives us the ability to say, instead of, I'm an addict, I'm a child of God.

Yeah.

And it does. It begins to change the way we think about ourselves. And that does impact then the way that we think about our future and where we're headed.

And that kind of gives.

Let me cut in here just a second.

I don't want anyone to think that like, oh, they're just saying some things and it sounds really good and it feels really good, but there's nothing really practical there. Like, there's a reason that everybody believes once an addict, always an addict.

I have watched this change somebody's life in real time over the period of eight months. I have watched this change.

My friend, he was here, he was going through a sober living house that we do some close work with as a ministry and watching the change of the outlook that he had on life from this is always who I am, this is always what I'll be. And I can get as close to God as I want to, but this is it.

This is all I'll ever amount to are the choices that I made back then to stopping other people from believing that about themselves and saying, no, what you have to realize is you are a child of God.

And he's like, if it wasn't for this mind shift, this mindset shift that they helped me come to realize, I never would have been able to just accept that God has intensive work for me to do and that it's okay and I can trust him because he loves me enough to fully change and redeem me.

So because he believed more about himself, he was able to know that God had better for him and so he was able to step out in faith and his life is infinitely better off for it.

Now, what you're describing here is a refining process and that fits with what we see in Scripture about God because we often talk about, and Hebrews specifically refers to God or talks about God as being a refining fire in recovery ministry.

As you've just described, you're walking with people whose lives are actively being refined, whether it's from a ministry perspective, a professional perspective. And that means a lot of things are being stripped away from your perspectives, both of you.

How do you help someone work through the discomfort that refining process brings and help them to work through that without running back to their old coping mechanism to numb that pain?

I mean, for me, the biggest thing is building rapport with the client. I always say I like to match their energy. If they want to talk about God, I'll talk about God. If they want to be sassy, I'll be sassy back because it disarms them and I can create a relationship with them that way. It helps them to trust me better. And when they know that I care, then they're able to work with me.

Then we can have the deep conversations where it's like, why do you think so negatively of yourself? Why are you running from your feelings? Why do you believe that you are this terrible person who did all of these terrible things?

Like, yeah, you did, but why does that make you a terrible person?

You mentioned relationships, and often that is a key factor in people who are dealing with not just addiction, but pretty much for anyone. And it's probably one of the areas that's lacking in a lot of people's lives is having good, solid relationships.

So you see that as something that actually helps to grow and develop and give an extra support mechanism to prevent that running back to what we know and what we're comfortable with.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, when we're talking about your support plan or your aftercare plan for when you get out of the treatment facility, one of the biggest things we look at is like, who's going to actually hold you accountable? Who's going to make sure you're going to meetings?

Because if you just go back to your empty apartment, you're just going to go right back to that bottle, too.

It's interesting that you say accountability as well, because coming from a Wesleyan perspective, one of the things that was focused on was that personal accountability, not just to, oh, I'm accountable to God. No, no, you're accountable to one another.

And I think part of that grows out of Paul's instructions in Ephesians to submit yourselves to one another, that it's a vulnerable position, it's a humbling position.

And so many of us don't want that, particularly when we're dealing with those things in our past, our makeup, things that we're trying to work through.

Yeah. So she said relationship. Let me use the more religious term that we like to use here at church. We call that community.

And that was actually my answer. So he's asking this question and I'm formulating my answer here, and I'm like, community. And then she says, relationship.

And so now I feel like I have to change my answer. No, I mean, seriously, community. You bring them into new life, new way of living, new experiences, new breath. I mean, breathing for the first time.

You bring them into that with you. They're not alone. They're now part of.

We always talk about, like, oh, this is a family, like your old church would always call it, your brother and sister, your brother, this, your sister. So, you know, and so it's like, we always talk about, like, you are part of the family of God.

Now it's like, okay, well, hey, we're getting together and eating. You're getting together and eating with us. No, I didn't ask you to bring food.

I asked you to come eat because you're not expected to do anything except exist as part of the family now. But also part of it is, it plays on habit stacking. Part of it plays on habit replacement.

So, okay, is your habit that every morning you wake up at 5am and you go out to smoke, okay? So you replace the smoke with a cup of coffee while you're sitting there at 5am drinking your four cups of coffee to replace the cigarette.

Read, you've got a whole story that you're a part of now. Learn it. Like, learn your place in it. Find out where you fit in in it. And hear what Jesus said.

See how God has interacted with humanity throughout all of our history. And of course, as a pastor, you know, we talk all the time about this is the living, breathing word of God. If you want, what is God saying to me?

What does God say about this? What does God say about that? This is what he's saying about that.

And sure, it may not get into specifics like, oh, should I go to this job or that job.

But when you are close enough with God that you are reading his Word daily and interacting with him in prayer, those sort of wisdom, left or right decisions just kind of clear themselves up. Here at Foundry Church, we've got a one year Bible. It's a reading plan, it's a journal and everyone in the church does it.

So you can go to any of the pastors, you can go to pretty much anybody in either of the locations and be like, hey, so I was reading on Wednesday in Job, that passage of the day, and man, I just didn't really understand this or this is what I got from it. And they can immediately fire back with what they read or what they got from it or what God led them to with it.

So it's like more community, more relationship.

It gives you an entry point into that relationship because I know this person is also doing this. And they read the same thing this morning. And from the perspective of the more mature believers, hey, did you do that reading this morning?

What'd you think about that? Or from the person less mature, as you said, I didn't understand this.

Well, like the Ethiopian eunuch, how can I understand if no one explains it to me? And so that's why we have actual groups of five to eight or so people.

And some can get a little bit larger, some can get a little bit smaller, but it's that. It's that more intimate, quiet relationship where you can just sit there and be like, I have no idea at all what anything in Hebrews meant.

I need help.

Or even Wednesday night get together or, well, actually, one of the small group get togethers. I really didn't understand that sermon Sunday. What did any of that mean?

And the opening is there because the vulnerability is there.

Yeah.

The intimacy is there.

There's that old phrase that says, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And, I mean, that is the biggest thing here.

I think it sounds trite, but it's very true.

So true.

I mean, whether it's a one on one relationship between, you know, social worker and client, or one on one between just two friends at church, pastor and lady, or two friends, or, you know, a whole, like, communal relationship, I'm not going to buy into this until I see that people are actually buying into this.

Wes, as a worship leader who also helps guide people through recovery, you see firsthand how music and worship impact the soul.

When someone's trapped in the isolating, chaotic cycle of addiction, what happens to their spiritual life when they finally begin to clarify worship and sing truth in community?

It's communally binding, for one. It's just this idea of, like, oh, oh, we're all doing this.

One of the things that a couple of my professors at Trevecca expressed and went over and over and over and over and really drove into us is the words we say matter. And this kind of drives back at, like, affirmations. It's like, what you say about yourself matters. What you say about God matters.

What you say about your relation to God matters. What you say about how God relates to you matters. Because what you ultimately come out of that believing shapes your walk, your faith.

But I have never in my life, in my whole extremely long 28 years of life, experienced a more spiritually intense group to worship with. And when I say that, I don't necessarily mean up and down the aisles, hooting, hollering, I'm down.

Like, if that's the energy we're going to bring, that's the energy we're going to bring. And I'm relatively okay with that within reason. Paul has some safeguards for that.

But the open heart, reckless abandon, what they're coming with is, I have literally nothing left. I have no life. People make my choices for me. I don't decide what I eat. I don't decide what necessarily what I drink. I don't decide.

A lot of times when I see my kids, I don't get to make. I have nothing left.

And you're talking about people who are actually in an inpatient or a resident type situation.

Right. So we'll often get a bus in from one of the local rehabs to our Celebrate Recovery on Sunday nights and them.

And then of course, the people that come in on drug court and things like that where they're required to attend.

Sure.

You have some people that are just there because they're required to attend and they get their paper signed and they meet the state requirements. A lot of them are here because I've got nothing left. And all I've got is the creator of the universe who says he loves me.

It kind of brings to mind the story from the end of Jesus's earthly ministry, where he's come to eat with someone and a woman comes in and begins to pour ointment over him and weep and wash his feet with her tears and dry his feet with her hair. And his explanation is that those who've been forgiven much, love much.

And when you begin to see how far you've been or how far you've gone and know that there's hope coming out of that, and you begin to see that hope take place, it works its way out then in the way they worship.

Yeah, we never do an official altar call. Not because I don't believe in that, because it's never necessary to.

There have been times where we're like, all right, well, we're just going to continue in worship because half of the people here are currently up at the front weeping, pouring their heart and souls out to God over whatever they're going through, whatever struggle, whatever trial, whatever thing has brought them here. And yes, I fully understand that worship is so much more than just singing songs.

But for a lot of people at the entry level, yeah, singing truth really does something. I mean, there's a reason that, you know, when Saul was troubled, it was David and the harp that soothed it. Music moves our soul.

I don't know how, I don't know why. I just know it does.

One of the things that you're describing seems to go against the way recovery ministry often gets treated in churches. Unfortunately, a lot of times the attitude tends to be, oh, that's those people who have a problem in the room down the hall.

And for severe problems, it's for addiction. And you kind of touched on this earlier, that the reality of it is, if we're honest, everyone is recovering from or managing some form of brokenness, some hidden idolatry, some codependency, some — you mentioned anger issues earlier. Workaholics and, like you said earlier, mismanaged priorities. Anything, like you said earlier, fill in the blank.

Whatever is standing between you and living a life like Christ. Simple trauma, right?

So everyone in the church is seeing this and dealing with it.

How does being involved in recovery ministry change the way you view not just people who are in recovery, but yourself and the typical churchgoer sitting in the seat on Sunday morning?

I understand and have seen, at least on the greater institutional level, those guys down the hall in their coffee room with the problems and whatever happens there is behind a closed door and behind the curtain, and it doesn't affect the way that we look all shiny on a Sunday. But that's not something that we've experienced here.

Everyone that is actually physically able to at some point or another has come and helped serve on Sunday nights. And it's incredible to watch just how that has helped us grow as a church. But I mean that, like, grow spiritually, like in our — in our church maturity. Because you — you do realize that the only difference between my struggles with God and their struggles with God is their struggles with God may or may not have also got them struggles with the law, or CPS, or struggles with their health. So at least for me, the delusion of the white knight coming in to save everybody that was wiped out on, like, night one of doing this ministry.

And it's like, you don't come into it intentionally with this. Like, I'm not like. But you do come into it, at least in part, thinking, okay, I'm here to deal with — I'm here to help with people who have dealt with drugs and alcohol and these things. And it's a — oh, this is all just Matthew 4, right? We're all just looking at stones, wanting bread.

We're all throwing ourselves off the temple, thinking we're all that. So, I mean, the delusions clear themselves out almost immediately, is one thing for sure.

For me, I would say, like, pretty similar, honestly. It's also helped me learn of the seriousness of drugs and alcohol. I mean, before I started working in that field, I used to say dessert was my vice.

I don't say that anymore. I mean, it's like I tell them every day, I never struggled with substance, but I struggle with anger. I'm no better than you.

We're all just trying to learn how to be the healthiest version of ourself.

You mentioned Matthew 4, and of course, Jesus' temptations there.

The verse that comes to mind for me is actually Second Corinthians 1:4, where Paul says he's giving thanks to God and he says, who comforts us so that — and this is a really important — so that we can comfort others in any need with the very comfort we ourselves have received from God.

And it gives you a new perspective that God can take the things that I've been through and use those to help someone else.

But not only that, not only looking at myself, it gives me a new perspective to look at somebody who's in recovery and say God's going to take what they've been through and use them to help someone else.

Yes.

If they will submit themselves to the work he wants to do.

Yeah.

And it gives you a new perspective when you begin to look at people. Like you said, I'm just like you. I'm no different. I'm struggling with things as well. Let's help each other through the struggle.

Yeah. I mean, it also helps to have people around you and on your team that are on the other side of the story that they're sitting in. So, like one of my mentors, essentially, in this whole recovery ministry thing, the only way you know this man has ever done any type of illicit substance or spent any time on the inside of a jail cell are because of the tattoos on his face and because of the testimony that he will readily tell you out. But you just look at the way he lives his life. You look at the way he worships, you look at the way that he does ministry.

You look at the way he lives sacrificially. I mean, you talk about off with the old, on with the new, new transformation, live in love like Jesus. I mean, this guy fits the bill. I mean, it's. He's absolutely incredible.

Was about to say something on those lines too, from the professional's perspective, because we have a few employees who have come through the program, the exact program that they're now working for. And that's awesome.

It is so incredible to see them at work every day because it's like I was sitting in your spot two years ago, like, that was my seat, and I would fight anyone who sat in my seat. But now I'm coming in every morning fighting people to come in here, fighting to make a way for them to come in here, because I know that this works.

This is something that my pastor and Wes, you know this. You've heard him say this as well.

Growing up in that church, loves to say that this is what it means to be more than a conqueror, that being a conqueror is overcoming. But being more than a conqueror is when you let God take what you've overcome and help lead others into that overcoming as well.

You talk about new things and new ways, new beginnings, new things being done. That really lines up with Isaiah 43, where God talks about doing a new thing.

And of course, contextually he's talking to Judah a couple of hundred years before they go into exile in Babylon. And Isaiah is looking down the road of what's going to take place.

But when you read the full context, Isaiah 43-44, he's also talking about much more than what Judah's going to face. In your lines of work, in dealing with ministry in the professional setting, you get a front row seat to lives being remade.

Sarah, you just described it very well. Working with people who've come through the program and are now working, and in a way, giving back to that program.

If you could speak directly to a family member right now of someone who is going through recovery, to that family member who's exhausted, maybe they've lost hope. They're watching someone they love destroy themselves. What does that new thing look like in reality on the ground?

What does hope look like for that person?

Grace.

Not only does this new thing work in their life, but if you're willing to let God work in your life, he will give you the grace, the compassion, the wherewithal, and the wisdom to handle what you are handling. I'm not even going to begin to pretend to understand the pain or the agony or the frustration because it's different for every person.

What they've gone through is different for everyone. But what God is willing to do is ultimately not different. He gives you the ability to forgive.

God's heart is always towards reconciliation, both between each other and to Himself. Give it time, give it grace, have patience.

While we believe in miraculous change, and I've seen instantaneous recovery, it's not the normal, it's not the usual, this takes time, this takes work. But see the work that's being put in. And yes, so this may be the 15th, 16th, 17th time you're watching them put in this work.

It's not up to us to decide what's genuine and what's not. Ultimately, only God can know that. But we talk a lot about the fruits of the Spirit. Those will begin to show on this path.

It took time for the Israelites to understand what "new" meant. And even when they were face to face with the grand new thing, they still didn't understand.

So have grace, have patience, be willing to let God do something.

From a professional perspective, this is where my faith comes in at work. I never hide the fact that I'm a Christian, but obviously I don't push it on people because I just want to be able to help them in the best way that they'll let me. But this is where my faith has to come into place.

Because if it wasn't for my faith, there are times that I would lose hope because there's clients who — it's like they've come in, this is their fourth or fifth time through the program.

They finish their 30 days, and the next morning they're right back at the liquor store. And it is heartbreaking. And so, like, sometimes I've come home and I'm like, I crawl into bed because it is hard. It's really hard work.

But I have to remind myself that I can't want it for them. They have to. They're the ones who have to want it. And what I would tell a family member is just to keep praying, to not give up.

Protect yourself if you have to, but don't give up. Because there are so many stories of reunification, reconciliation that I've seen. There are people who have gone from — they don't have custody of literally any of their kids, and now they have custody of all seven of them and two grandkids, people who — I haven't even seen my kid in five years, and now I get to see them every single weekend. And we're looking at getting custody back.

And just stories like that, that give hope. Seeing the people who have literally come through the program, working there — give hope.

Actually texted one of my coworkers recently, and I'm like, thank you for just existing, because you give me hope on hard days.

And you raise an interesting point there, because for you, dealing with ministry, whether it is in a ministry capacity, a professional capacity, it's easy to give up hope. It's easy to become jaded.

It's easy to think everybody's here, just doing the time, trying to get through, and when they finish up tomorrow, it's right back into the same thing. And so many times, recovery ministry, recovery in general, can feel like playing whack-a-mole, that we're going to beat down this problem.

Oh, but look, here's five more. And I think at this point, not just for that family member, but for you guys who are on the ground doing this kind of work.

Paul's words in Galatians 6:9 come to mind. He says there, let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. And I think that's the big thing.

And it's kind of — you touched on it, Sarah, when you said, don't give up.

I had a coworker who also — she was very religious and she would constantly talk about planting seeds. And I mean, yeah, if nothing else, at least coming through the program, they see that it is possible even if they're not ready.

And sometimes they're not ready, and sometimes they realize that they're not ready and they come back. And as much as possible, I know that the owner of our facility tries to always offer them another chance to come back.

Hopefully next time they'll be ready.

I think he would get the same critique that I do sometimes. Hope with reckless abandon.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

It's probably one of the hardest parts about it all is to have and maintain that hope with reckless abandon and not look at every person that comes through sideways, but looking at every single person coming in, whether I know they're there for just signatures or they're here to actually, you know, work and receive and experience grace, you — you just — you hope with reckless abandon.

There's another cliche phrase that talks about, I'm going to give my best and let God do the rest. And I mean, sometimes that's where — I mean, it's a silly phrase, but sometimes that's really all we can do. Because you never — I mean, I know at work it's like we do have to look at them sideways a little bit of times because they are freshly clean or freshly sober and they still have the addict mentality. And it's like, are you trying to just pull one over on me and just do your 30 days to get your certificate and be done? Are you trying to manipulate?

But at the same time, it's like, I try to test to see if the stories line up as much as possible, but at the end of the day, give them your all and try your best. And then my faith comes into play and hopefully God will do the rest.

What would you say to the person who has listened to this, maybe found some inspiration, some desire to try to start this kind of ministry in their church, or if one's already active in their church, to get involved in it?

What would you say to encourage them or to maybe guide them in that decision?

This work is hard, but worth it.

It is incredibly worth it.

There are times where I have cried because I'm so frustrated and I'm so upset, and I'm like this person that you pour your heart into for months and then just — it explodes in your face. But you know that you did everything God wanted you to do. It's tough. Someone has to do it. If not now, when?

I was just thinking that if not you, who?

If there's already a ministry like this going on, find the recovery pastor and be like, hey, I want to help. Plug me in. I guarantee you they are not going to turn you away. We will never turn you away.

Please come help.

We'll never tell you, ah, sorry, I've got too many people helping today, come back tomorrow. No.

At the very least, volunteer for the kids.

Oh, man.

And you're talking about watching the kids? Not kids...

Recovery, man. That's —

Yes, the kids. And wrestle them.

Getting them off the lollipops is crazy. Yeah. If there's already something like this going on at your church, find the recovery pastor and be like, look, I want in.

If you're not ready to 100% buy in, say, put me on the ground level, be honest about where you're at. You are not going to surprise the recovery pastor with anything you say.

We have heard just about everything you can hear, both from servant leaders and from people coming to attend. I mean, if you are feeling even the barest inclination of, like, this might be interesting to try out, go for it. What's the harm in trying?

You might come out of it going, yeah, never again. You might come out of it going, I think this is what I'm going to spend the rest of my life doing as ministry.

I might even go as far to suggest try it out once anyway, even if you don't feel like this is where God's leading you. Because if you had told me when we first got married that we'd be doing addiction recovery work, I would not have believed you.

And now it's what I want to do with my life. I love this field. This field breaks my heart all the time. Gives me headaches, stresses me out. But it is such a meaningful work. It's changing lives.

It's helping people fight for their lives every day, and it's good work.

If there's not a ministry like this going on at your church, depending on your resources, it may or may not be possible to do it.

I hate to come out of it going, hey, sometimes church has to run like a business, but sometimes, you know, you have to look at it going, okay, is this even feasible with the resources we have as a church now. Then, if your church is feeling led to do it, don't let resources stand in the way. God always provides. If there's one around you, recovery ministries are not the kind of thing where we look at denominational lines, we look at theological lines. And by that I mean, like, you know, if you hit all the core tenets of just creedal Christianity, we don't look at denominational lines here because so many of these people have, like, the only time they've ever experienced the inside of a church, maybe right now, this evening. I mean, one of the most incredible stories that I've encountered here was this one girl, her first time inside of a church.

As far as what I can recall of her story, her first time here at all. She was laid up in the third pew, sick as a dog coming down from fentanyl. Now we're what, a year and a half later?

Two years last month.

Two years. And she's working at rehab. She sees her kids every weekend. She's house mom of the sober living house.

Now her whole attitude is, where can we inject God? Straight into the heart of everything we're doing. If you need a clearer reason than that for your church to start one, I don't have one, man.

That's about as clear as it gets. Complete transformation.

And like I said, if you can't do one at your church, if they say, hey, this isn't possible, or hey, we'll think about it, and you just have to get in right now, find one around you that is doing it. We don't look at denominational lines. This doesn't have to be an all encompassing, every moment of your life work.

It can be if that's where God leads you to. But all it takes is just showing up.

At the very, very least, I would say at least if you can't start a CR or some type of recovery meeting, find the closest AA and just go, be. Some are a bit more patookey than others and don't want you to talk about God.

But I mean, you can at least pray over the AA meeting and see where God leads you because I promise you he'll lead you somewhere.

And that's, I think, a key point. Pray about it and see where God leads you and then be obedient to whatever he leads you to do. Wes, Sarah, thank you for joining us today. This has been a great conversation.

And if anyone listening to this has found value in this — share it with somebody you know. Share it with somebody who's doing recovery ministry that needs that encouragement. Share it with somebody who needs recovery. You name it.

Thank you for joining us today. Look forward to seeing you on the next episode.

Now it's time to slip the moorings and head for the deep waters.

The Deep Waters Way. Where Scripture, theology, and transformation meet.