Scaling Your Startup Dev Team: Hiring Specialists vs. Generalists | The Pair Program Ep23

Welcome to today's episode, where we discuss hiring specialists versus generalists in the tech startup world. Startups are known for their fast-paced, ever-changing environments, where engineers are often required to wear multiple hats and work on a variety of projects. So, which is better for a startup – a generalist or a specialist? Hear from startup leaders, Nick Peddy (CTO of CLEAR) and Haytham Abuelfutuh (co-founder and CTO of Union.ai) as they discuss:

• What it means for a software dev to be a generalist vs a specialist
• The pros and cons of hiring generalists vs specialists
• When and why startups might strategically choose to hire one vs the other.
• And much more!

Thanks for tuning in to today's episode!

Welcome to the PAIR program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a

front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world.

I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad, and

I'm your other host, Mike Gruin.

Join us each episode as we bring together.

Two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology,

startups, and career growth.

What's up everyone?

We are back for another episode of the Pair program.

I'm your host, Tim Winkler company by my co-host Mike Grew.

And Mike, what's going on, man?

How.

I'm

doing great.

Took a couple days off, uh, rested and ready to get back to, to doing some, some

real work and hanging out with you guys.

Real work

What does that mean?

Um, no, like sit back at work.

. Yeah.

Um, have you seen, um, have you seen the, the second avatar yet?

The way of water?

No.

Nope.

Not a fan.

Not a fan of, of Avatar?

I haven't seen it.

Sorry.

You haven't seen, have you seen the first one?

Uh,

probably.

Okay.

It's been a long

time.

Wow.

No, you haven't.

Wow.

You haven't . It's either you haven't

or you haven't . Yeah,

I don't, it's probably not that the

top grossing movies of all time.

Understand.

I've seen

a lot of good movies, but yeah, probably not that one.

Okay.

All right.

Well, um, watch the first one.

, what about you guys?

Have you seen it?

The, the new.

I've

not seen the new one yet.

I just, uh, watched the old one, the first one with my daughter to kinda get her.

She hadn't seen it yet.

She's a little bit too young for 44, so we're getting ready for it

this week time we'll probably go.

Yeah, I was

really, what about you?

Ha?

I haven't watched the second one either.

Uh, but I love the first one.

Mm-hmm.

, I just.

Watch the trailer for the second one.

I'm not super excited about it.

I dunno if it's because of, you know, has been so long since the first one, right?

Uh, not sure, but, uh, I'll definitely give it a shot.

That's what I was reading an article about is that it's been like 14 years.

Um, and they said that they were waiting for the technology to kind of catch up

to, to really capture what they wanna capture, but what they've recorded at

this point, they say, um, they have enough content to cover the next three.

Of the series, which is wild.

Um, so I

read somewhere, I, I guess in the second one, Edie Falco is in it

as a, a primary character some way.

And apparently she shot her scenes so long ago that she assumed that

the movie already came out, like flopped or something, didn't.

No idea.

That's hilarious.

Wow.

Well, let's, um, let's go ahead and give the listeners a, a

heads up on, on today's episode.

So we're going to, uh, dissect, um, could call it a de a debate, um, but

basically two points of view that are centered around hiring, uh, different

kinds of engineers within startup environments and specifically, you

know, generalist types of engineers versus specialist types of engineers.

So, you know, oftentimes we have a lot of founders, CEOs, CTOs, that have a, maybe

a strong stance on, on this one way or.

. Um, and, um, you know, often might not wanna deviate from their own

style, but maybe this conversation might flip some viewpoints.

So we've got two fantastic guests here joining us.

Uh, both have a really diverse experience in hiring up engineers and building

teams from early stage startups, uh, to big tech companies like Lyft and Google.

So we'll get some nice perspectives on the topic.

Uh, and Nick, thank you both for joining us on the PAIR program.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you for having us.

Sure.

So before we dive into the discussion, we do like to kick things off with the

fun segment that we call, pair me up.

Pair me up.

Here's where we're gonna go around the room.

We'll shout out a complimentary pairing.

Mike, as always, uh, you start us off what, what you got for us.

So for those, uh, actually watching the video, uh, you can see I'm shaved.

So, um, which is not common, but my pairing is, Big

projects and playoff beards.

So the reason I took a couple days off was for the last like month plus, I was

totally crushed by end of year reviews.

I have a large team and a lot of people to review, so I was working

a lot of late nights and long hours.

And during those like crunch times, I just go with my hockey playoff beard,

don't do anything, and don't maintain it.

And then when the project's done, I shave it.

So, uh, it was like a nice.

Nice little reprieve.

So that's my, my tradition I've been doing it for, since college.

Um, so that's, that's my pairing.

Nice,

nice.

I'm sure our, our viewers appreciate it.

You look much cleaner.

Like you've, like you've showered recently, , um, also, uh, there's a

big Rangers caps game coming up soon.

Yes.

There is.

Um, yeah, December 27th actually.

So, um, yeah, just we'll

assumed you'd be busy

. Tim: Yeah.

Yeah.

That, that might actually segue right, right into my pairing,

um, . I'll, I'll jump in.

Uh, so, you know, my pairing is a derivative of a life-changing event that

my wife and I, uh, recently experienced.

Um, last week, Tuesday, uh, to be exact.

Uh, we welcomed into the world, our first child, uh, a daughter.

Her name is Alice.

Um, and with that I'm going to go with newborns and a new purpose.

Um, so, you know, for those parents that are out there listening, I'm certain

you can relate, but your life takes.

New meaning when you bring a child into this world.

And yeah, it's the best thing that's ever happened to us.

And, and I feel like my wife and I both have this new purpose

in life, which is Baby Alice.

So that's, that's my pairing.

Get a little, little, uh, you know, teary-eyed, sentimental

on, on this one with, um, you know, newborns and a new purpose.

So, um, right.

I'm, I'm, I'm prompt.

Yeah.

Congratulations.

Congrats.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Awesome.

I will close, uh, in the five second scramble with parenting tips.

I assure you,

. Haytham: So too soon for

. Mike: No, I'll be asking for them.

Yeah, ill not be giving any parenting tips.

Um, alright, so let's pass it to our guest now.

Uh, ha them, if you want to give us a quick intro and tell us your,

Um, sure.

I, I feel very hard to top what you just said, but, uh, , I'll go.

Uh, bit classic.

Uh, I do like driving and listening to either podcasts like this

one, uh, or audible books, uh, for the more my normal routine.

Uh, I used to drive about like 40 minutes or so, you know, every, uh,

day going in and outta work and.

Listening, uh, allowed me to catch up on a lot of reading, um, and, you know,

learn a lot, um, uh, for the past few.

Cool.

Do you have any favorite podcasts that you recommend aside from the pair program?

Know, is that, uh, paid, uh, advertising ? That's right.

Um, I, uh, I do like the Software Engineering Daily.

Uh, I guess, uh, but I also loved cereal.

Uh, if you know, you, I haven't heard of it.

It's, it's amazing, uh, by, um, Uh, American Life, um,

if I remember correctly.

And, uh, and it's, it has, it's all about real world stories

that they sort of news reporting.

Um, and, um, I think I have quite a few on my list and just turn on

the, uh, you know, the latest like recently, you know, added podcasts

to that list and it just listen,

uh, gets sucked in.

Which did you say cereal?

Yes.

Zero's incredible production value too.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

The, the

ad, the story on Aon, um, just they did the, I say yeah, they did the, um,

they did the Netflix, or was it hbo?

O um, one of the two.

It was so good.

I mean, I, you know, I, I remember watching like the documentary,

but then there's like a.

Docuseries that just recently came out, and it's, uh, it's so, it's so well done.

Um, but agree with

you.

Check that out.

I have not, uh, watched that.

Yeah.

But yeah, the, the podcast was awesome.

Awesome.

Yeah, I'll send you the, uh, I'll send you the link to it, but good stuff.

Uh, Nick, how about yourself?

Uh, quick intro and, and your pairing.

Yeah.

So hello everybody.

I'm Nick Petty.

I'm the CTO for Clear.

I've been an engineer and engineering leader for all of my career.

I'm happy to be here.

Uh, gosh, my parents feel so self-indulgent now

compared to Pro Parenthood,

was in Washington State.

It's been dumping snow.

It's extremely cold.

My wife is Vietnamese.

Um, and on today's, like today, she likes to make, or, or

sometimes we order in, uh, fu.

Um, and so the, the, the winter season, that's cold snow and that warm broth.

Oh, it's such a, just a delightful pairing.

Made my mouth water a little bit, just thinking about it.

Absolutely.

I think this is, uh, the second appearance of, uh, as honor parent Uhhuh.

Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. It's one of my go-tos too.

Are you heavy on the sriracha?

You going heavy on that?

I

load it up, man.

Um, mm-hmm.

. I like, I throw the basil in.

I throw the lime in.

I rode, throw the sriracha in.

Yeah.

That's so good.

Uh, we, uh, in, in our family, we do a soup day.

Uh, it's little tradition.

We, uh, started after moving here to the cold west.

Uh, we just.

Soup and go out in the cold in some, you know, park or

something and just have soup.

Uh, it's, I dunno, maybe that would be my second period.

sounds like a good tradition.

I like that.

But it's sounds great.

It's awesome.

Yeah.

Love the fuck.

Yeah, love the, uh, um, cool.

That was great.

Uh, let's, let's, uh, go ahead and transition into the, the,

the discussion for today.

As I mentioned, we're gonna be talking about, you know, hiring up engineers

into startup environments and, and breaking down some of these maybe

pros and cons of hiring up, you know, a generous versus a specialist, uh,

these different types of profiles.

And so there's a lot of research out there that's maybe made the

the case for both sides here.

I was doing a little bit of digging on the topic as well, and you

know, the, a couple of journalists, for example, like David ep.

Wrote a, you know, a New York Times, you know, bestseller called Range, which

is, you know, range wide generalist triumph in a specialized world.

Um, so they're, you know, he's making the case that, you know, hyper specialization

is something that's instilled in all of us since grade school, but it might

be a little bit overrated, Emily.

We should encourage, you know, range.

And then alternatively, um, leaders like Michael Malcolm Glad.

Who's another journalist, put on a, um, put out a pivotal book called Outlier,

which makes the case that, you know, specialization is what contributes to,

you know, high levels of, of success.

And so now we want to think about these implications in, in the context of hiring

up, you know, maybe technical talents, specifically in startup environments.

And we'll cover this from, you know, mid to senior level, all the

way up to, to leadership level.

Um, and I'm just gonna jump into it at this point.

Start with you first.

Maybe you can shed a little bit more light for our listeners and, uh, expand

on, you know, the, the, the journey to, to get to your current role as the CTO

at Clear and, uh, and then a little bit more on the size of your company tech

teams that you're, you're responsible

for.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, I, I would say that's probably, um, being just the last few years

of my career that I have sort of like emotionally accepted the

idea that I'm not a developer.

You know, I haven't, I haven't like written, killed for a paycheck in

probably like a decade or more, but, uh, in my heart I still am,

you know, and that, cause that's been the majority of my career.

So, you know, I spent a good chunk of time at places like Amazon and PayPal.

That was probably about 15 or 16 years right there as a, you know,

as an IC of some form or another.

Um, eventually, you know, I, I had an opportunity towards the latter end of

my time at PayPal to, um, really be sort of in like a, not quite, I wasn't

managing people, but I was sort of leading a very large team in a sort of

indirect capacity as like a very senior.

Um, and it finally clicked for me, like, oh, like, hey, if I do this right,

I can sort of become this outsized leverage for the rest of the team.

And the impact then that I can have is far greater than I could have,

even, even the most senior most, you know, deep IC that I could imagine.

Um, and ultimately what I care about in my career is impact, um, and, and

doing things that matter to people.

I don't, you know, need to be curing cancer per se.

You, you know, it needs to be something of value and something meaningful,

uh, to people from a product and, and sort of society perspective, right?

So every role I've had since then has been sort of measured attempts at

growing my leadership capabilities, increasingly larger sizes of scale,

starting with early, early stage startup first was sitting around the CEOs kitchen

table, ATT didn't have an office yet.

Early, right?

All the way up through, um, late stage to the ipo.

Um, you know, I think you were at Lyft when Lyft IPOed.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, I was, I was an Uber when Uber iPod, uh, on the other side of things.

Um, right.

And then, and then going all the way to the other extreme at JP

Morgan Chase, the, pretty much the largest organization you can imagine.

Um, and now at Clear may a little more in between, uh, you know,

clear IPO last year, um, scaling up and maturing a lot of ways.

Um, I've got a good size, couple hundred people in terms

of engineering organization.

Um, and, and so a lot of my focus now is just really on how do I

build really great teams and help them, you know, create leverage.

Excellent.

Yeah.

And we'll, we'll, um, picket that here in just a minute, but, um,

let's, let's transition quickly over to Haitham if you wanna Sure.

You know, provide a little bit of background, uh, for our listeners

as well on your, on your journey.

And then, uh, obviously expand a little bit more on what's going

on right now at Union, at ai.

Sure,

sure.

Yeah.

Um, thank you for the opportunity.

Yeah.

My name is Abu.

I'm originally from Egypt.

Uh, and I have worked in a few.

Big corpse, a cor, a corporate, uh, worked for Microsoft, Google, and, uh,

most recently left before starting union, uh, with a few amazing co-founders.

Um, also, by the way, generalist engineers, so we'll

talk about that in a bit.

Um, uh, yeah, and I got, uh, got opportunity to work, uh, you know,

as an IC for most of my career.

Uh, like talent management, I've done tech leading, uh, and I've seen.

Um, you know, maybe across, if, if there is some dividing line between

generalists and, and, uh, uh, specialists, uh, I definitely work

with people who are, who, who at least, uh, categorize themselves as one or.

I think there's a lot of value that both can provide, uh, and a lot of value that,

um, uh, I sort of found myself within a team, uh, can provide to both of them.

Um, there's definitely, I would say more collaboration than, um, uh,

competition between the two roles.

Um, at, uh, at Union, we started the company about two years ago, uh, with the

mission to, from the name, uh, to really unify, uh, the ML work, uh, uh, space, uh,

the tooling and the, the processes and.

Efforts, uh, uh, and make it super easy for companies that need to adopt, uh, ml,

uh, as they're, you know, part of their business, uh, to, you know, just create,

shift things quickly, um, and bring in the efficiency that, you know, we have

as an industry have built over maybe 15, 20 years in software engineering,

uh, over to this ml, uh, first.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Um, let's, let's start with, with you, Nick, on this because you

recently just went through a little bit of a hiring spree, uh mm-hmm.

as you mentioned to us on our intro call.

Um, talk to me a little bit about that, um, you know, what level you were kind

of looking at bringing in, and then let's break down, you know, what you were

looking for in terms of these molds and.

Yeah,

it's a, it's a really interesting, one of the context of Clear actually,

because, um, upon joining Clear, so I, I, I'm still very much hiring by the way.

Uh, quick shout out.

Uh, but, uh, you know, where, where I, where I started when I took the role was

really at my most senior leadership team.

I didn't really have a sort of senior leadership bench.

It was a lot of like frontline managers and, um, you know, very much, I think

the, the vestige of the company really scaling up really quickly and maturing

really quickly is now finding itself in a position where it's time to sort of

like take that next level up in terms.

Organizational structure and, and potentially specialization.

But interestingly enough, when I, when I looked at hiring my

leadership bench out, um, I was really focusing on generalists actually.

Um, specifically, you know, and, and what I kind of built each of my hires

was that, You know, there is gonna be a, a significant sort of pillar

or vertical chunk of functionality to own that's gonna be meaningful and

impactful for the company for sure.

But I really care about the most are leaders that can reach across the

organization and help me sort of solve a bunch of different, of problems

that are more horizontal in nature.

Um, just again, because it's really about.

Clear.

Um, really sort of taking, taking off in terms of, um, the scale of

things we're doing, the types of things we're doing, expanding outside.

I think most people know clear as an airport business, right.

Um, and there's now so much more that we're doing and are

going to be doing in the future.

Um, and, and getting there requires, you know, maturing, uh,

our collaboration, maturing our processes, upleveling our talent, um,

ensuring our tech stack in many ways.

Right?

Um, and each of those things is not really a vertical problem said, right?

So it's sort of horizontal problem set.

And so, As I, as I brought on really, really great strong leaders

that I'm really thrilled with.

Each of them has sort of approached much, a much more sort of first team versus, ok,

I'm gonna focus on my little area and make this good and, you know, everybody else

can worry about their own areas instead.

Um, and I think that's probably the right thing for now.

Having said that, and you know, my belief by the way, just to throw it

out there to, to kind of, uh, you know, juicy up the conversation a

little bit, is that it's really not a choice, but more of a spectrum.

That you, I think you, you, you make intentional choices about the, when you

wanna think about generalists versus specialists, and there may be times when

it's one's appropriate versus the other.

And you kinda, the, the trick or the nuance is knowing when, um, and it's

not necessarily even linear, right?

You don't graduate from specialist or generalist specialists, for

example, and then you're specialists forever at that point, right?

Like sometimes you come back around at various points.

In my career, I've had opportunities to do what you might call like a

startup within a large company.

And in doing so, do you end up sort of coming back around to, okay,

now I'm hiring generalists again.

Um, and, and then you sort of maybe work your way towards

specialists as you need to for scale.

Yeah, it's

fascinating and, you know, this leadership level, um, you know, and

I know that titles can mean something in every org, but you know, we talk in

like EMS director level of engineering.

Is it more More VP level?

More vp VP level?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, and especially, you know, depending on the size of the company,

especially at the more senior levels, those titles can, can be a little squishy.

Sure.

Right.

A little bit like what's difference between a VP and SVP when you're

talking about like a 200 person engineering organization, for example.

Right.

And there are differences, but they might be like, you know, subtle.

Right.

And so I tend to think about, and then this goes back to the whole,

you know, how you establish that bench and how you work in generalist.

I tend to focus on how do we grow into the organization, right?

So you may have a title, it's a little bit squishy and feels like a little bit

overinflated now, but like in a year or or two, as we continue investment,

as we grow the organization, it's gonna make a lot more sense, right?

And so you wanna kinda, I, I think about hiring generalists for the

long term, uh, in that respect.

And

Haitham, you, you know, obviously we're in a, in a much

smaller situation here at Union ai.

Maybe, you know, what's the size of the tech teams here and, um, you know, you,

you mentioned that you're hiring as well.

Uh, you did, you did plug, you're looking at generalist, um, you

know, tell me about the, tell me about that strategy and why you're,

you're, you're going that direction.

Yeah.

Um,

uh, so we, we are a much smaller.

Younger company and smaller team.

Uh, as well, we started with, uh, five people.

Uh, we have grown the, the org to about 35, I wanna say now.

Um, most of them are engineers.

I think we 18.

18, uh, uh, tech and then, uh, some and, uh, writing and others.

Um, Uh, and I think the way, the way we started thinking about this

when we started is, uh, you do want initially, uh, generous because the,

the, the kind of things that you will need to do are just so flexible and

a lot of unknowns that you cannot.

Anyway, you make it, you'll not make the right choice.

Picking the right specialists to do every little thing you want.

Um, right.

And they will be, uh, probably under utilized.

Cause there isn't enough of, you know, that sort of

specialization in the beginning.

Uh, even though later on there will be a lot more, but you know, in the beginning

you want people who can, uh, be very flexible, can jump around roles, uh,

can even go up in like management and then down bic, like you want, generally

very different dimensions, I guess, uh, if I can describe it that way.

Um, uh, they can even be sometimes engineers, sometimes non-engineers

and be, you know, product management and maybe customer sales.

Uh, like they can just work all.

Until you get to a point and agree with Nick on that, that like, it's

not, it's not really a, a binary switch, uh, that happens, right?

It just, uh, when it's different of course, across the company, like

in different roles in the company where you start realizing that,

um, for that particular thing you.

Maybe more specialization.

Um, it's not just, doesn't have to be a specialist, right?

Like somebody like full-time specialist, but more

specialization for certain things.

Um, one of those things that we recognized like very early on is like the, the, you

know, the customer facing, uh, the support and uh, uh, customer success and so on.

Uh, people who reach out like Gabriel.

There's, uh, marketing, there are some, uh, I would say roles that.

Much further apart, um, than others.

Uh, and for those it was a bit easier to, uh, um, to target

and find specialists for.

Uh, but you know, if you talking about maybe product and, um, and engineering

roles, maybe they're closer together that, uh, the, a generalist or assumptionists

can span across that spectrum.

Um, I, I think the other thing I, I would say, uh, another

area we saw is like security.

There are, so just some, even within tech, uh, and engineering world, there

are certain domains that, um, are just too big, uh, for somebody to sort, I

don't wanna say casually take the one, but just, uh, um, without the full

knowledge of the domain, uh, excel that, uh, and you know, Security is one of them.

Uh, like you doing d ml engineering is another.

There's just certain, some areas that are still very, um, hard to, uh, to sort of

pioneer and make impact in if you are not already sort of deep, uh, in the weeds.

Uh, prior to joining the.

So definitely started with generalists, uh, to scale out the

entire company and then started picking up areas where we want to

hire, um, you know, more specialized

people.

I think security is definitely, I think an area where, um, sorry.

Sorry, Mike cut you off there.

I was just thinking like security is definitely a really interesting

area where, um, The, the generalist specialist transition can be

like really kind, obvious, right?

Because you can actually go quite a quite ways with software engineers and

just like really basic, but like solid engineer, like security practices.

Mm-hmm.

. And then at some point you reach a point where you know you need somebody

who's got that depth expertise.

Jumps.

Yeah.

Was the, you could have, um, , you can actually do more damage in a way

if you have someone who kind of knows security but isn't really, doesn't

really know what they know or don't know what they don't know, and next

thing you know, you, you're in.

Mm-hmm.

, worse situation.

And, and I think the same is true with ml.

Like I think of all I've, I've met a lot of people who think they really

understand machine learning and then they don't realize how biased

their models are and all the mm-hmm.

terrible things that they're, that they've done, um, same in

security and the rest of it.

So I do think you're, I, I totally agree, right?

There's this like, Good best practices and understanding.

Yeah.

And just wanting to, making sure that people know what they know

and know what they don't know.

Um, and then you can start bringing in more specialist security.

Both of those are areas where, I mean, I would argue security is such a big domain.

Machine learning is such a big domain that there's generalists and then

there's specialists within just that.

Mm-hmm.

, um, and Right.

Absolutely.

Understanding

that as, and we should, we should probably clarify, you know,

when we talk about generalists and specialists, we're kinda using a couple

of different dimensions here, right?

Cause on the one hand you can think of terms like skillset, tech, tech,

tech, tech stack, things like that.

I actually tend to think of it more little ways in the ways that you were

talking about hate them in terms of like different hats you wear, right?

Mm-hmm.

. So are you an engineer who can also sort of wear a product hat?

Are you an engineer who can also speak to customers?

Right?

Things like that.

Um, and then you.

At some point, you know, and, and you can find a few those folks, and then you

get started as a company or as a team, and you can get pretty far that way.

Mm-hmm.

, but then at some point you, you just can't find too many of those people.

Right.

And you mm-hmm.

and you don't wanna, cause you start to scale up, you need to start to have people

who really only focus on that one hat.

Um, over time, I think my personal experiences, that's kind of how

most organizations end up making that transition is that you realize

you just, you can't hire 200, you.

People who can wear all the hats because there aren't 200

people, don't wear all the hats.

And I think that's an interesting distinction.

It's actually one of the notes I made was the distinction between

generalists versus really, I think what both of you are talking about

is maybe more around versatility and adaptability than say generalist.

Right?

Like for me, a generalist is someone who can do a lot of different things,

um, kind of s like can, as opposed to someone who's versatile, who

can flow from one role to another.

Like today, we need someone who really understands this versus.

, you know, being able to do that.

I, I, I'm curious, like versatility, adaptability, or things that

I sort of think of more.

um, especially at startup stages.

And then the other sort of common one I've seen, I'm curious to get both of

your opinions, is the notion of a T-shaped engineer where they have a breadth of

knowledge that's sort of their foundation.

Mm-hmm.

, but then they definitely go deep in certain areas.

Um, and then aligning that with sort of who you're looking for.

So you get somebody who maybe is a really deep backend software develop.

Has some familiarity with like C I C D, some familiarity with say, security and a

little bit of data engineering, but really they're like a backend engineer, like

that's, that's their bread and butter.

Mm-hmm.

. And so of that notion of a, like a T-shaped sort of this generalist

in some areas, but definitely kind of specializing, I'm curious what

your thoughts are on that.

To whomever wants to think, yeah, I'll, I'll jump in.

Cause like you're like, we're on like the same wavelength today or something.

I was thinking the same, that T-shaped idea I was gonna bring up.

I think, you know, clear has a really interesting example

of that in biometrics, right?

Cause biometrics is a place where you want deep specialization.

Mm-hmm.

, and we have that.

But at the same time, biometrics is also really, really core to experience.

Right.

What I think about, and it comes like T-shaped engineers, is really, again,

a spectrum, but really from sort of more juniors, more senior, right?

As I expect my engineers and my engineering leaders as they

become more senior, whatever specialization they have, right?

Obviously that goes to increasing depth, but then also in

terms of that T shape, right?

That like, That person should also be able to think really deeply about the customer

experience, about stakeholders, about the product, and like apply their depth to

sort of that broader perspective as well.

I have some really great, um, very senior like principal engineers, for example,

you know, in my biometric space that, um, you know, really know their stuff

really well, um, and can do incredible things, but at the same time have a

really strong lens on, on, you know, what that, what that customer experience

is like and, and how biometrics plays a part in, uh, in a product experience.

Right?

I think.

And biometrics is still relatively new and interesting, so people

tend to kind of focus in on it.

But as I commonly tell my team, biometric good biometrics should be invisible.

It should be like the electrical outlet in your wall, right?

You should never even think of it.

It's just, it's, and it just works.

And in fact, the only time you really even acknowledge it is when it

suddenly doesn't work for some reason.

So the goal is always to try to keep it like invisible and, and, and

deep, but highly, highly effective.

In order to do that, you have to have both that depth and also that perspective on

what the product experience should be.

I'm, I'm curious, Nick.

Uh, so are you, the, the people you saw grow into this sort of T-shaped employees?

Mm-hmm.

, uh, did so does, did they start as a generalist and then they, they

started building up, um, the vertical sort of expertise in one area.

Uh, and they just, yeah, maintain.

That's

a really, that's how, yeah.

It's really interesting.

I've, I've seen both to be frank.

Um, and it's a really interesting question.

Um, I think you can have both, but in, in my mind, the things that are really

interesting, I think this is where your space in MySpace are sort of paralleled,

is that like there are areas like, you know, in, in ml you need to have some,

some really some depth of expertise.

But again, if ML is um, like your experience, your product platform, right?

Then you're also gonna have that broader perspective.

Um, but you can have the same thing happen with a generalist.

Yeah.

Yeah, I have

definitely seen, uh, and I'm trying to reflect on like the, the team

we have built so far, the people I've, uh, had the pleasure to work with before.

Um, and I, I think I have seen more people who, uh, were sort of hired

as a generalist, um, and, and then started either developing expertise

or they already came with this expertise in one area that was just.

Sort of known in like, sort of the interview process or not.

They were not really hired specifically for that area.

Uh, but they started either, um, you know, leaning towards working more in this or

maybe, uh, advocating more in that area.

Um, and started, you know, being presented within the company has that,

uh, uh, the T-shaped employee, right in that, uh, they can go, uh, they have a.

Um, knowledge around, you know, different areas, different hats and so on, but

they have very, very deep understanding of either ML or maybe some CICD systems

or like, whatever the, the situation is.

Um, but I have seen less, uh, people who were hired as, um, specialists who sort.

Luckily happened to be generous . Um, uh, definitely seen that, but I feel

like it's, that was a lot, that's a lot greater, uh, in my experience at least.

Uh,

that brings up kinda an interesting, uh, additional dimension

to the conversation then, which is like, to what degree do you prioritize

intentionally creating environments and cultures where that can happen, right?

Mm-hmm.

, right?

Is that, is that something that matters?

And, and do you do that accidentally or do you do it on purpose and

sort of what does that look.

I've never, to be frank with you, I've actually never thought

about it that way before.

Um, but as I heard you speak, I'm thinking about like, you know, obviously you wanna

create environments, people can learn, people can grow, people have mobility

in terms of roles, things like that.

Really, really important to me.

Why I'm creating teams is, is creating opportunities for growth.

Cause that's what people really care about in their careers.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but you know, do you, do you sort of create general growth or

do you create specific growth?

Um, and that's, and and is it really just kinda what, what,

what people you have on your team?

Or is it really driven by the needs of the business or some blend.

And actually, and I'm, I was curious cuz as you were talking, I said similar

thoughts about myself and my own career.

Career, Mike, you and

me man.

And we're, we're Well there.

Well, and what was saying the, when I think back over my career, I,

cuz I worked primarily in startups.

So it's usually these, like, we usually hired like someone for a role, but

then like, I think of it as they were specialists that just learned more.

Mm-hmm.

, like they landed in an area and then they took on the next

and the next and the next.

And the.

. And so I actually wonder now that you're sort of putting it out there mm-hmm.

maybe it's all about environment, right?

Like it's the same person.

Mm-hmm.

and given this opportunity, they present as a specialist because their very first

job, that's what they were needed to do.

And they just went super deep or the first couple jobs.

But then there's other people who were in other environments where like, now you're

in this like crazy environment where today we need you to be the, the dba.

Mm-hmm.

. And tomorrow we're gonna need you to be the security guy.

. Mm-hmm.

just speaking about myself.

So, um,

I mean like, no joke, like it's crazy how many different and how did that happen?

And, and I always consider myself a specialist.

Um, not a generalist, but like, but I've now have this general set of

skills because I've gone like deep, deep, deep, you know, whatever.

So I just wonder if it's more of an environmental thing.

I think we're all looking for the same people.

We're looking for people that are versatile.

Adaptable.

Wanna learn different technologies, want to grow in different ways,

um, and both technology-wise and also like skillset wise mm-hmm.

like product management or managing people or all those different things.

Um, so maybe it's the same type of people

that we're looking for and just opportunity.

Mm-hmm.

, Tim: uh, we see a lot of, you know,

a, you know, a founder on a, on a search, you know, the, the types of

customers that we partner with or anything from like, To series ef.

But I will say that when we talk about specialists, we we're

maybe looking at it through the lens of the product life cycle.

So, you know, we want somebody who's really dabbled in this zero to one phase.

And you know, beyond that, like it might not be needed too much further

because, you know, it's a very specific piece of this project that we're we're

in project or or product lifecycle and.

That really helps us, you know, dial in on, okay, we need to really make

sure that when we're speaking with, with candidates, you know, let's talk

to them about where, where did you, you know, have this zero to one experience.

Like really walk us through it and explain to us like, you know, what pitfalls you

ran into, how'd you troubleshoot 'em?

Whereas that in itself is a specialty.

I mean, it's, it's, it's a, it's a very niche piece of development.

Mm-hmm.

. Whereas we see it a lot in product management.

Right.

And we talk about this on the pod quite a bit where.

you've worked yourself out of this phase of, of PM and, and, you know,

you almost need to know when to tell yourself, like, guys, you, you need

somebody that's really good at this, you know, finding product market fit

now because I'm, I'm not that person.

So we, we see that as almost like a differentiator when it comes to, you

know, a specialist type of resource, even though it could be same tech stack, but

it's a very different style of mm-hmm.

where's the product at?

And it's e.

It's a really good point, and I think you especially see

that within like the C-suite and especially with like founders, right?

Mm-hmm.

where like, and I, I remember way a young Nick Petty early Silicon Valley

being part of a startup, um, before I was even at Amazon, um, where

the company got its funding, you know, series, a big series a round.

Um, and then immediately the founders were fired and replaced by the I.

And I, for me, I was like, I mean today, that's like a very typical story, but

for me, like I was like, wait, what?

That's even possible, like how can you get fired from your own company?

But, but it was like, yeah, they're not the guys for the

next, they, they got you here.

Great.

They're not guys for the next.

And and they know that.

And we know that.

And that's just how it's, I was like, oh, I never really thought about that time.

It was really interesting.

Usually they don't know that

fair's

fair.

They've those stories too, for what it's worth.

I got a question for you.

So you, you know, your background, you know, you've, you've worked

at some really, you know, big, big tech companies, a lot of fang uh,

companies, you know, Microsoft, Google.

You worked with Lyft, you know, when you were building out this

early team, um, and you've got a couple of co-founders, correct?

Yeah.

Um, you know, was was, was some of this hiring through, you know, your,

your internal network and, you know, with that, you know, were these folks

coming from these big tech environments?

And, and not to say that folks coming from big tech environments aren't

versatile, but, you know, when we, when we look into certain, you know, skill

sets or soft, soft skills, you know, we, we do try to find folks that maybe

have some specific startup experience.

They say scrappy, right?

That's a big, big, big word.

They keep thrown around in startup world, . Um, did, did you feel any

sort of, well, one, you know, did a lot of your team come from these bigger

tech companies and did you have your network or did you, you know, were you

intentional on like, you know, I want to go outside the box of, of, of, of

who we know or, or, or network, because I think we might find different skill

sets here that, that might adapt better in this earlier stage that we're in.

That's a, that's a great question.

Um, it was definitely, I think the first few months were a struggle on hiring.

Mm-hmm.

as probably Nick and, uh, or like anybody who worked really for an

early stage, sort of can tell.

Mm-hmm.

. Um, we, uh, uh, I think that we were intentional about, um, hiring journalists

at that stage, or like, we do want people who are versatile, who can work,

flexible in, uh, different areas, can.

Random areas that are not even like tech stack based, right?

Uh, just to get things going.

Um, we did tap, uh, our network, uh, I did, and the

all the other co-founders did.

Uh, but not just as a sort of a general call out, uh, for, um, to hire people.

Uh, we tried to find the people or reach out to the people who we know

having worked with, uh, that they, uh, possess the same skills or the.

Versatility that we are looking for.

Um, the, and I, I wouldn't really say that.

I know there is the, I guess a con, uh, um, uh, what's the, like the,

there's um, what is the word looking for, um, conception, I guess, about

the, uh, people working for big companies that they're more of, uh,

not small gear in a bigger, uh, right.

Uh, machine.

But I, but haven't worked in for a long time in those and I probably,

nick, hopefully can back me up there.

Uh, there are a lot.

Very, very strong, versatile, uh, uh, uh, employees and engineers across

the stack, um, who are not there because of their specialization.

Cause they want to just do the one thing.

Uh, but because they are this T-shaped employees, more or less, they are

very deep in that area and this is what that company needs them.

But from, uh, from their sort of skillset and background perspective,

they are very, very versatile.

Even within the comfort constraints of a big company.

Um, they can go, uh, around and, and I've seen those people grow a lot.

Like the, the big companies still need these people.

Uh, and they sort of recognizing grow them.

Once I, uh, go, I think.

Management and, and maybe c-suite and uh, um, uh, and that

level of, uh, um, management.

You do want people who don't get sort of stuck in one thing.

You do want them to have the flexibility and, uh, um, uh, like

not just, like, not just tolerate, uh, the, the sort of randomness that

comes with the job, but actually embrace that and, and look for it.

Look for opportunities where they can have.

Breadth impact.

So those are the people we tried to reach out to.

Uh, we were, we were very fortunate to hire people from big companies,

um, and who are not in our, uh, not necessarily from our like, you know,

immediate network and also from, uh, startup, uh, you know, other startup,

uh, experiences or backgrounds.

Um, and then I think the mix that we end up ended up with is amazing because

you, in big companies, there are a.

Best practices that, uh, engineering teams, um, by default sort of, uh,

embrace and, and just the culture and the, uh, the way things work.

The, the compliance and the, you know, the sort of the right way of

developing and deploying, uh, services.

Um, people see that and they experience that and they want to

bring that over to wherever they go.

Uh, so, so they came with.

With these sort of perspectives in mind.

Uh, and then we get, uh, we got people from startup backgrounds

where they're, you know, as, uh, Mike said, like very scrappy, uh,

and they were like, we'll get, do whatever it takes to ship the thing.

Uh, right.

Uh, I think Facebook is famous for the, you know, uh, what was it?

Uh, Chip fast and break things, I think is what, or some variation

of that, um, uh, mindset.

Uh, I know we have people and we do need the mix, right?

If you not work with only one kind of people.

Um, and the, I think the power comes from the culture you build in the company

to, uh, allow both of them to, uh, to strive and just get the best of both.

Mm,

I, I totally agree with that.

Um, in fact, I would say that really has less to do with the size of the

company and more to do with the kinds of things that you work on in that company.

Right.

And certainly big comp, bigger companies will lend themselves more to people who

are more comfortable, sort of just like taking that one role and just seeing that

out for the next 10 years or whatever.

Right.

And you just show up and do good work and you get promoted on a

regular basis to a certain extent.

And that's nice and comfortable and good.

And there's nothing wrong with that per se, but some people,

Can't sit still like that.

And they have that sort of natural curiosity, um, and, and

sort of mind for growth, right?

And then you can still find great things to work on, um, that

will ultimately get you there.

Yep.

Um, in fact, that's probably one of my number one pieces of advice I try

to give, especially to my leaders.

Career advice wise is, um, you know, don't, don't think that your growth is

dependent on you sort of accumulating sort of all this like fiefdom and

sort of, you know, and specialization.

It's actually about continuously engineering yourself out your own job.

Mm-hmm.

. Right.

The analogy I usually use is like chess.

Anybody plays chess, right?

You develop your pieces over the course of the early, mid, late game at some point.

You'll have chess pieces inevitably to get stuck somewhere, right?

Cause your opponent something and now you gotta pieces in a corner

sort of guarding that piece or that piece from doing something.

And that piece is pretty much just done for the rest of the game now and

there's nothing you can do's still playing an extremely valuable role

in the game, but can't do anything with anymore stuck there for now.

Right.

Versus piece that can move around defense basis.

That's much more valuable piece to have.

Right?

And you can do lots of things with that piece.

Um, so I always tell my, my, my.

Make yourself a, a, you know, a night or a look.

Don't make yourself a pond, right?

Like, you know, make yourself engineer yourself outta a job.

Make yourself able to move all the time.

That's where you can advance your career and continue to grow that, that

generalization and the specialization.

Like the chess, uh, example, uh, Mike, for, for you, we can

break it down for checkers.

Like, thank you.

Appreciate that,

. Mike: I was expecting that.

Or you just call me a pawn.

So either way,

, Tim: uh, um, yeah, there's a, there's

We could go down on this.

We, we didn't get to all of 'em, but, you know, some of the things that,

you know, we, we might wanna build.

For future episodes, we're, we're gonna include like the, you know, I

think we're also, we're not talking about it, but kind of talking about

of like diversity hiring, right?

And why this is so critical, um, in, in how we approach this, not just from, you

know, the specific skillset perspective, but, you know, different genders,

backgrounds, races, all of these things, you know, bring together this pool and

I think this culture that you want, um, you know, not everybody's the same here.

Uh, we're, we're getting different.

So that was an area that we didn't fully get to.

And then, um, you know, how you structure your teams, I think is one that we're,

we're probably gonna also build an episode around, because everybody's got

a little bit of a different style to it, but you know these different pods, right?

You know, do you really want, maybe you want this, this specialist kind of lead.

Uh, but then, you know, the folks you know, that are reporting in might be a

little bit more of these generalists.

But, um, we can, we can table that and, and store it in, uh, in, in

the bank for another, uh, record.

But, uh, any last words on this?

And I, you know, before we transition into the, the five second scramble,

um, anything that that comes to mind that you wanted to throw the

cherry on top, Nick, or, or hit them?

My last thought would just be that I, I think that like most things,

like I said at the beginning of the conversation, it's a spectrum and it's

an intentional choice that you make.

And it's not like there's not anyone like, oh, you always

do it this way, then that way.

I think that no matter what the situation you're in, you always have to think sort

of holistically, uh, and make intentional choices and then re those choices ongoing.

Cause it's never right answer, you know, in perpetuity.

Yeah.

Uh,

yeah, I totally agree with that.

I think it's, uh, It's very important.

The intentional part is very important, especially as the company grow.

You cannot, every hire, uh, is very, uh, valuable and very costly.

Uh, and they have to, right, they have to be the, like, net positive

for the entire company, the, the life of the, uh, and the rest of the team.

Um, I think one, one other thing I wanted to add, uh, to the same thing.

Just got, uh, . Sorry.

Um, my mind just blanked for a second.

Sorry.

Yeah, I totally blanked.

I forgot what I wanna

say.

It was gonna be profound though.

I bet.

If you

want , I'll, I'll talk for a little bit and buy you a little bit of time.

Uh, I do have a final thought, a little bit about the hiring and, and, uh, my.

A lot of times I approach it like I'm building a mosaic.

Right?

And, and the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I think when you're

hiring, while you may have it in your mind that you want to have this person

or this role or this whatever, like understanding that you're building a team

and you're building the team on the fly.

So you, it's not like putting a puzzle puzzle together.

You don't have all the pieces.

You're trying to find them and fit them together.

Mm-hmm.

. And so even if you do have.

You know, you sort of have in your mind like, I need this type of person,

like being more open to okay, someone with that skillset, but maybe they

are generalists, but ha or that T shape, like, or whatever it is.

And trying to, you're filling out an entire team and so ha you know, you hire

one person and that might help inform you who else you're going to end up hiring

and to sort of just be open to those.

Mm-hmm.

those possibilities of like, oh, maybe if I bring in this person, then I

don't need as much in this other area.

Or, or

vice versa.

. Um,

so, yeah.

Yeah.

I'll, I'll piggyback on that real quick too.

So we, we partner often with venture capital firms on, on hiring up

for their early stage portfolio.

So primarily exceed and a and with that, you know, we oftentimes will just have,

and, and when it comes to leadership positions, we see a lot of times they

don't even post these roles because they just need to talk to people.

And I think they're talking to people, you know, it's not about

what's on your resume per se.

I mean, there's definitely gonna be some things that jump out.

You'll start to see like profiles and these profiles will start to carve out

like, oh, I didn't realize that there was this, this type of person, either, uh, or

that you can combine this and with this and it'll almost open your mind up to,

you know, getting out of this one lane.

So we, you know, we oftentimes will have, you know, on a monthly

basis like, Hey, here's like three directors of engineering.

You know, each of 'em has a little bit of a different.

and you know, they just wanted to have a conversation and through

that conversation figure out like, there is a role here for you.

And we didn't even know about it until we saw this, this was

profile and had that conversation.

Mm-hmm . So I think like not being so rigid on like, you gotta

build this org chart and every job description's gotta be structured.

And it's like, if you open to the conversation, especially in the early

stages, I think in leadership types of roles, cuz you're gonna see a lot of

different folks and, and they might also just influence you to go down some paths

that you weren't originally consider.

Just by having that talk, so absolutely quite

right.

Yeah.

Um, I think I remember what I say, , it's about flexibility too.

So I have also seen, um, people's preferences change and the person you hire

for one role, uh, like maybe you'll hire them as a specialist or aist and they.

After working with them for a bit, they decide that they want to dig deeper in

one area and become especially there.

And I think, uh, being able to recognize that and not box people in

certain, you know, uh, in one model or another, um, gives your team like,

just immense, uh, immense power.

Um, and just, you know, so embrace that too, uh, to the

leaders who are building these.

Um, this is, this comes with the job being a generous too.

Having to navigate all of these situations and the person you

hire for one job may end up being excellent for a different one.

Absolutely.

Well said.

Good stuff.

All right, let's, um, let's go ahead and, and, uh, wrap up here with, um, this final

segment called the Five Second Scramble.

So I'm going to ask both of you all a series of questions.

Um, you try to give me your response within five seconds.

We're not gonna, you know, throw the horn on you and, and, uh, you know,

kick you off the air if, if you don't.

But, um, try to keep it short, short and brief.

It'll be kind of this rapid fire q and.

Some business related, some personal.

So I'm gonna start, um, with you

So, um, first and foremost, you know, what problems are you solving at Union ai, uh,

unifying ML tools, tool chains, uh, in giving ML engineers one

view and end to end platform to do it.

Who are your users more?

Oh, sorry.

Ok.

Alright.

You're asking a series of questions.

I think I, as I answered the question, I, I was like, is

that what he was asking about?

Or actual like, engineering problem.

Um, uh, who are our users, uh, ML engineers in different

companies, big and small.

What type of engineers would thrive at Union?

Uh, come with C in mind and wanting to learn, be

open to talking to customers and learning what they actually want.

Um, and you'll strive here.

What's

your favorite aspect of the culture at Union ai?

We are a global culture and uh, I embraced that early on and I love it.

We are hiring, we hired people all around the world.

Um, and I'm enjoying this so

much.

What's,

as a founder, leader of a startup, what is the number one thing that

you'd say keeps you up at night?

Making sure we are, uh, solving the right problem.

And I keep questioning that every day.

Did, did we spend the day to day solving the right thing for our customers?

Uh, or should we change that?

What's the, your favorite country that you've ever traveled to?

I have to go with Egypt, my home country,

. Tim: Nice, nice.

Um, bagel biscuit or English muffin, uh,

bagels all the way.

That's the right

answer.

. Feel like that's a question.

uh, number one, parenting tip for new fathers.

Do

not listen to parenting tips.

I, I would say that in all honesty though, you will get a lot of tips

and a lot of personal experiences from everyone who sees you with a kid.

Um, take it as a, it is a personal experience for somebody else.

It may or may not apply to you.

Um, so it's more of a suggestion, not a guideline.

It doesn't tell you.

Does it define how your relationship with your kid.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

Yeah, I've, I've heard that before and I, I agree.

Everybody, every parenting style is different.

Um, what is your favorite app on your phone today?

Hmm.

Probably, uh, my Google search app.

The, I, I'm not for the search functionality, but for the curated

news I get on the homepage.

Nice.

And, uh, what is your favorite superhero?

Or who is your favorite

superhero?

I don't think I have one.

I'm not into superheroes.

favorite Disney character.

That's a tough one.

What is your third favorite animal?

. . Haytham: Oh my God.

Thank you for skipping that.

Yeah.

Uh, , um, uh, cats.

Nice.

Says third.

Right.

Third.

That's so good.

So we're, we're doing these videos internally at Hatch as well,

and so Thomas is our producer.

Uh, we wanted to create everybody's kind of like bio.

So we, we came up with like 10 questions that everybody record and we're fully dis.

So that, you know, going to the next year, everybody can kind of circulate them.

And he came up with these questions and his, one of the questions was like,

what is your third favorite animal?

And it's just, you know, makes you think a little bit of like, man, I don't know.

So, you know, it's interesting to hear what people come up with when

you ask 'em their third favorite.

So

if you ask a kid that they'll know right away.

Yeah, they

will.

Well,

wait, I knew right away.

What does that say about me?

What is yours, Mike?

Uh, octopus.

Oh.

Interest.

All right.

Well, you're not, you're not playing the game, so we're not gonna ask any

more questions, . Um, alright, Nick, let, let's jump over to you by away.

Um, explain your product to me as if I were a five-year-old.

If you ever have to pull something out of your pocket to prove who you

are or what you are allowed to do, then you'll wanna use our product

to make that easier for yourself.

Nice.

Who are your users?

Uh, it's really anybody.

I mean, I think identity is foundational in society.

And so again, same example, right?

If you think about all different times throughout your day, you

have to pull something outta your pocket or your wallet to prove the

driver's license or an insurance card or anything like that, right?

Any credential, um, you know, this at this point, it's hard to go anywhere

without needing something like that.

What

types of engineers thrive at.

Uh, I would say engineers that have a strong sense of

ownership and a passion for the the member and the partner experience.

What's a top

trait that you look for in an engineering leader?

Intellectual

curiosity.

What is your favorite city in the us?

Gotta be New York.

Nice.

Sunrise or sunset?

Sunset.

Number one, parenting tip for new fathers.

Trust your gut.

There's gonna be a lot of people who are gonna suggest to you this thing or tell

you you're wrong about something else.

Um, and 99.999% of the time, you'll know best, even if you

don't know how to explain it.

If you had one day left to live, are you gonna spend it with

Morgan Freeman or Denzel Washington?

Those my only two choices.

. That's it.

. Tim: That's all you get.

You get two.

Oh

man, I guess I gotta go Denzel.

So you're going out hard, you're gonna party, you're gonna, yeah.

Yeah.

Love that.

American gangster.

Um, favorite, um, favorite Disney

character.

I would've done too much better on the superhero one.

Oh, let's go superhero.

Let's go Superhero.

Alright, well then Batman.

Of course.

Batman.

Nice.

Heard it a few times.

It is the right answer.

. Yep.

Um, that's it guys.

Uh, that's, that's a wrap.

Thanks so, so much for hanging out with us.

And, you know, um, you know, this has been super helpful.

I'm sure a lot of folks will consume this and help them with hiring strategies.

Um, if there's anywhere specific that our audience can find.

Feel free to shout it out if it's somewhere on LinkedIn, if it's your

Twitter handle, whatever it is, feel free to to shout that out now.

Nick, if you wanna go first.

Oh yeah, sure.

Yeah, I'm, I'm just Nick Petty at LinkedIn.

Uh, feel free to reach out.

I accept all invites.

Cool.

And um, all, Nick in, you can get the spelling from the episode, probably

. Tim: Awesome.

Well, appreciate your all's time and thanks again for hanging

out us on the pair program.

Tim was pleasure.