In the second episode of this ‘Financial Crises’ season, Simon and Bex discuss what we can learn from instances in the Bible when individuals and/or the nation of Israel had to deal with severe challenges caused by the likes of famine, displacement and conflict.

Some key points of interest covered in this episode include the following:

• Simon and Bex start the episode by talking about Job as a striking example of an individual who endures a devastating personal and financial crisis but perseveres in his faith. Despite losing everything and being totally bewildered by the dramatic reversal in his fortunes, he continues to place his trust in God. [02:14]
• The challenge that confronts Joseph has personal elements but predominantly takes place in a wider context. By obediently interpreting Pharaoh’s dream and accepting responsibility for preparing for the predicted famine, Joseph brings God’s provision into what would otherwise have been a national disaster for Egypt. [04:23]
• The story of Ruth focuses once again on an individual’s predicament as she tries to eke out a living in a foreign country affected by famine. In this instance, God’s provision for Ruth comes through the generosity and protection of Boaz, who acts as a guardian-redeemer to her. [09:44]
• Simon points out that people can be affected in different ways by financial crises, the challenge then being that each of us needs to be open to supporting others in whatever way we can, even though we may be grappling with our own circumstances in that moment. [13:20]
• As described in chapters 5 and 6 of the book of the Bible bearing his name, Nehemiah has to deal with all kinds of issues of injustice, exploitation and opposition when he returns to Jerusalem to rebuild the ruined city. In a time of hardship, suffering and uncertainty, his single-minded commitment, integrity and compassion brought about many significant social improvements. [14:31]
• The prophet Elijah is a very interesting example of an individual who engages in a crisis at an individual level but also on a national scale, as described in 1 Kings chapters 17 and 18. He denounces King Ahab for his godlessness and proclaims that no rain will fall in the whole country as a result of the king’s attitude and behaviour. He also, though, brings hope and ongoing provision to a widow from Zarephath and her son, who are on the point of dying through lack of food. [18:18]
• In our next episode, Simon and Bex will be discussing Ponzi schemes and their role in various financial crises. [20:45]

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Simon

Welcome to ‘Where Your Treasure Is…’, the podcast where faith meets finance.

Bex

I'm Bex McGregor.

Simon

And I'm Simon Glazier. Each episode we're going to explore how biblical wisdom can guide our everyday money decisions.

Bex

We'll be looking at how we can give generously, save wisely, and navigate the complex financial realities we face.

Simon

But remember, investments can go down as well as up.

Bex

This is ‘Where Your Treasure Is…’

Simon

Let's get started.

Bex

This is season 13 where we are looking at financial crises and how we respond to them. In this episode, we're going to take that way back to biblical times: how were people in the Bible affected by financial crises and how did they respond?

I'm here with Simon. He is, I’m going to say, the better half of this podcast - he is a financial advisor and so actually has certificates and credentials that make him an interesting man on this topic. I just ask questions!

So, Simon, where are we going today?

Simon

It does pose the question, could you theorise what financial advice would you give to Job, for example, or Joseph or Nehemiah?

We’re going to look at some of the well-known characters and stories from the Bible where we see financial crisis happening - sometimes at the macro scale for the whole nation of Israel or sometimes for other nations actually - and how God interweaves his story and his provision into the world that's going on around the Israelites. And, sometimes, how that story is replayed at the micro level: the individual or the family level.

Bex

And for the avoidance of doubt, as much as we would love to give Joseph and Nehemiah financial advice, legally, we cannot do that on this podcast!

Simon

Guidance and information only, Joseph. Sorry. Good spot, Bex!

I'm going to come back to you - you ended our intro episode with a Bible character who went through some difficult financial times. So, remind us who you were talking about and give us a bit of background to their story.

Bex

So, I was talking about Job. He is in the Old Testament, sometimes a slightly obscure book, and whether he was a real man or not is up for debate. But, regardless, the point of this book is that this man Job is holy. He worships God, he puts God first and the devil decides to test him, which the Lord allows.

And over the course of Job, he literally loses everything: his wife dies, his children die, his livestock die - so he has no livelihood from his farm - he gets ill, he's covered in boils, and a whole bunch of his friends are not necessarily super helpful in that, either.

Simon

And this guy, he had a lot of stuff, Bex.

Bex

Yeah, he was doing really well for himself.

Simon

He had 10 children. 7,000 Sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 teams of oxen, 500 donkeys, and then a staff looking after all his business affairs.

He was a successful, wealthy, faithful business person in the Bible.

Bex

Really, it feels like a great example, and yet his whole life falls apart. And it provokes interesting questions of God: ‘Why are you letting this happen? Why me? Why won't you make it stop?’

And questions that we never get answers to.

Simon

And we don't hear this story about Job in a wider context of there was a war happening, there was a famine happening, there was a financial crisis.

In the Bible, it's very specific about the devil challenges God: ‘He's a faithful guy, but of course he's faithful. He loves you because he's got everything he needs! Take his stuff away and how will he cope?’

Then God says, ‘Go for it. Take his stuff away,’ and he's still doing fine.

‘Yeah, but let's really get to the heart of this. Let's make him ill. What if we take away his health as well?’

‘Take his health away,’ and yet he remains faithful.

And he's a good example of the ability to remain faithful through crisis.

But let's think of some wider examples. Bex, where do you want to start off with financial crisis in the Bible? Give us a big story and we'll dig into it a little bit.

Bex

I think the obvious starting place has to be Joseph because it feels like he is key in planning for the financial crisis, which he only knows because of the Lord, and then stewarding that so that actually the impact is mitigated.

Simon

Now, it's an interesting story in the timescale of the Bible, because if I recall correctly, the nation of Israel hasn't really happened yet. So, Joseph gets sold into slavery, gets taken off to Egypt, but by the end of the story, when he brings his father and his brothers and their families to Egypt, they are, like, 70 people. That's how big Israel is. So, it's a financial crisis, actually, not so much for the people of Israel, but it was a financial crisis for Egypt.

And Egypt was the global power of its time. It was massive. It was wealthy. There wasn't much equality amongst the wealth, shall we say. There were the incredibly rich and then everybody else, who worked for them or were slaves. And Joseph gets brought into this situation as a nobody. He's in prison, he is a slave pretty much. And yet he rises to prominence and he brings God's fantastic wisdom and provision to a nation that aren't even God’s. That's a really odd aspect of the story, isn't it Bex?

Bex

It really is.

And I think just as you were explaining it, I've never really thought about it like this before but the whole financial crisis in itself challenges this idea of self-sufficiency, of, ‘If I build a big enough castle - or a big enough pyramid in this case – actually, everything's going to be fine. I have all power, and I don't need God.

And I think as well, just as we've reflected on both that and Job, I just want to challenge the idea that can sometimes be peddled of the prosperity gospel, that if you love the Lord then you will be healthy and you will be wealthy - because both of these stories at individual levels for Job and Joseph seem to suggest otherwise.

And so, yeah, just want to say that if you feel like you can relate to Job or to Joseph when he is in prison and being sold into slavery and it feels like people are maybe being a bit like Job's friends and saying, ‘Oh, you know, have you thought about this? Did you not do that thing?’ that that's actually not what we see from the Lord in the Bible.

We see a Lord who is compassionate, who meets us in our need and who provides.

Simon

And it certainly seems that that provision is multi-generational. Joseph was born into a well to do family - Abraham the father of the faith, and then Isaac and then Jacob and then Jacob has his sons and Joseph's one of them. And then, suddenly, his financial security is ripped from him, very personally - sold into Egypt slavery.

And then many, many years later actually comes the opportunity to interpret a dream for Pharaoh. And it seems clear that God's given Pharaoh this dream. None of the wise men or the enchanters or magicians can answer it. But along comes Joseph. He's been trained for the moment through adversity. So, previous difficult situations have enabled Joseph to be prepared and ready when opportunity strikes.

And he stood up and said, ‘I can't interpret dreams, but God can. He will give you the interpretation of your dream. And the interpretation is this. There's about to be a famine.’

Interesting that God did provide somebody with the information that financial challenge was coming. He gave the warning to Joseph who passed it on. It was taken up and then he was given the authority and the responsibility to steward the resources of an entire nation for fourteen years: seven years of feast followed by seven years of famine. And it's interesting that we don't think of those positive seven years as anything to do with financial crisis. They were good years. But the start of the story of the provision for the financial crisis took place seven years or more before the financial crisis hit!

I think there's a principle there maybe we can take on board.

Bex

And, actually, if Pharaoh had listened to this interpretation of the dream and then been like, ‘Oh well, it's actually probably not that,’ or ‘Cool information, but I'm not going to do anything about it,’ then those seven years could have been absolutely glorious. But the next seven would have been awful because he wouldn't have prepared accordingly and put the people in positions to prepare accordingly.

And so, it feels to me like while we don't always get the heads up from the Lord that a financial crisis is coming, there is a sense of what are we doing to prepare in the good moments, in the still moments, to then weather those storms.

Simon

And we look at the story of Joseph and the crisis in Egypt and the entire outworking of that, which leads to 400 years of the Israelites in slavery in Egypt before Moses comes and rescues them, and actually that is part of God's provision.

The financial crisis which led to Joseph's prominence is part of the story of God's people that led to him giving them a place to live, a place where they grew and they thrived and eventually they escaped and then wandered for 40 years through the wilderness before getting to the financial provision of the promised land. And, actually, what I'm thinking now is there's a story that comes generationally later on, and it's the story in the Bible, the book of Ruth.

And so, we have the situation of a lady called Naomi, and there's a war and she leaves home and she goes to a foreign country. In fact, she goes to Moab. Moab was not a good place to go - it wasn't a popular holiday destination for the Israelites! Look back into the history of Moab versus Israel and you'll see quite a lot of animosity. But she goes there. Her husband dies, her two sons marry local girls, Moabitesses, and then the two sons die.

And then Naomi's, like, ‘Oh, well, I’d better go home. There's a famine here; there's a famine there. What are we going to do? Going to get back to my home place.’

And then Ruth and her other daughter in law, Orpah, they get to the border. And Naomi's, like, ‘Just go back home, go and get yourself some new husbands because you need to be looked after.’

And Orpah says, ‘Yeah, okay, I'll go and get another man.’

And Ruth says, ‘No, I'm staying with you. Your people will be my people. Your God will be my God.’

And Ruth comes, and we get this wonderful story of a family that have no provision, there's no income, there's no man to provide for them, because that's the way it worked - and all Ruth could do was go and glean in the fields, basically scavenge for food. And it's part of God's provision for those in need to do that. But God directly speaks into their situation too.

Bex

That sense of the gleaning, the scavenging, is really interesting because it fundamentally wasn't safe for Ruth to do that. She could have been attacked by some of the men working there. And, instead, what happens is Boaz actually says to the men, ‘Can you leave some so that she can get it?’

And then within that, we have this idea of Boaz being the guardian redeemer and that Jesus ultimately is our guardian redeemer who looks after us, who turns bad into good.

But it's this fascinating thing of despite the fact that Ruth made all the - quote unquote - wrong choices for the day, the Lord provided for her, he provided for Naomi, and actually Ruth ends up starting a whole new family in that land.

Simon

But God didn't provide for them with a handout. No, they didn't come back to their land and find a bank account full of money, a lottery win, somebody had stashed some gold in their house.

No, Ruth went to work.

And she went to work in the only way she really could as a widow and a foreigner, which was to go and pick up grains and stalks in somebody else's field, somebody who had provisioned and was doing the right thing as per God's command to leave a bit behind. And that was, ‘Don't reap to the very edges.’

And then Boaz says, ‘Who is this woman?’

‘Well, she's the girl from Moab that came back with Naomi.’

He says, ‘Tell you what: pluck a few grains out, a few stalks out of every sheaf and leave them on the side so she can gather a few extra.’

So, he was generous above and beyond what was required of him in the law. He said, ‘No, let's provide a bit more. Come and have some water when the men take a break. Here, have some grain to take home with you to your mother-in-law.’

God's provision came through her guardian redeemer.

They were of the same wider family, but she didn't know that. She trusted in God, a God of a different nation.

There are people listening to this podcast who have come to God - he's not the God of their family; they weren't brought up in church, but they made a choice at some point to believe and trust in this God. And he provides through other people. And therefore, he asks us sometimes to be the providers for those who have need as well.

And I think part of God's message is that the distribution of wealth is something that he challenges us on.

So, when we look at those around us, financial crises will affect people differently. It might be that one financial crisis actually benefits you for some reason. Your job is in demand, your investments go up, you're part of the group that ‘win’ in that circumstance. But there are many others who are suffering, who are struggling. And how do we get the balance of generosity to those in need whilst being good stewards of our own needs - our own needs, not our wants necessarily, and our own calling of generosity? Is it sometimes better to give our surplus to the church, to charity, to a third party who can help, then distribute to those in need, rather than us running the risk of pride? ‘Look at how many people I have helped in this circumstance. Aren't I the big man, the big woman! Haven't I worked hard to provide for so many!’, as opposed to ‘God provided for me?’

It's really important we grasp onto that. It's not ours; it's God's. He's letting us steward it - and some of that stewardship is to provide for others.

Bex

And I think Nehemiah is a really interesting example because, one, it looks at some of the wider consequences that financial crises can have in terms of social issues provoked by it. But, two, his response isn't necessarily financial, but it is absolutely crucial.

So, in Nehemiah 5, he comes across the exiled Jews and they are in an awful situation. They are struggling to have enough money to buy food and to just make it through the day. Some people have had to mortgage their property, some people have even had to sell their children into slavery. And he comes into this situation, and he responds quickly with compassion and integrity.

He deals with the issues of injustice and exploitation and - correct me if I'm wrong, Simon - but I'm not sure if we see him tackling any of the financial crisis, hardships and reasons why this has happened. But we do see him acting with compassion and justice.

Simon

So, we see him making some personal sacrifices in the moment. He's a prominent figure in the king's court. He was the cupbearer, which seemed to be quite a respected position. I think maybe he had to test the wine and make sure it wasn't poisoned. He got to be in the king's presence and he wasn't allowed to be sad in the king's presence!

So, he takes the opportunity - he gets permission from the king, very much godly permission, to go and to help rebuild the walls. He goes with authority to defend the Israelites from people around them who didn't want Jerusalem to be rebuilt.

They were under attack: they would hold a sword with one hand and a trowel with the other. So, they were building a wall while they were defending themselves; or there were people roaming the walls with trumpets to blow the trumpet if the enemies came. Eventually the walls get built and they start to recreate the city of Jerusalem. And then Nehemiah ends up as, like, the governor.

Well, in that society at the time, the governor had the right to levy a tax. So, it wasn't like Zacchaeus who was taxing for the Romans. No, Nehemiah could have said, ‘To look after the governor's job, you've all got to give me a denarius. Everyone pay up!’ And he didn't. He refused to take any salary. Not only that, he then fed other people from his own means.

So, you can imagine - he's had this high paying, prominent job; he comes with resources and he doesn't just look after himself; he doesn't demand what is expected of his position - he refuses his salary.

And then, it says, he fed 150 officials and people and visitors from his own means every day. That's a big table he had! He would have to kill some ox every day and some sheep and get in wine.

So, he was witnessing God's provision for a community through an individual. Now, maybe there were other individuals as well doing that. He's the one we get the story of: he had vision; he had purpose; he had passion.

He came with authority, he came with a lot of wisdom, and he came with provision, which he shared. I think that's probably one of the big reasons why he's in the Bible - great example of somebody who managed a national financial crisis well. There was war there, there was famine, and he navigated it incredibly well!

Bex

I also just love the way he consistently holds fast to what the Lord has said to him.

Nehemiah 6 has got one of my favourite lines where there’s people who are trying to stop him rebuilding the walls, and it says, ‘But they were scheming to harm me.’. And then verse three: ‘So, I sent my messages to them with this reply, “I'm carrying on a great project and cannot go down.”.’

And sometimes I just think, gosh, how different would the world be and would my life be if I just said, ‘I am carrying on a great project? I'm not coming down until I've finished what the Lord has asked me to do.’

Simon

I want to pivot now for a second into a story of another Old Testament prophet, this one, Elijah. Now with the story of Nehemiah, Nehemiah came with provision: God had given him the means, and then he came, and he used the means that God had given him to help support the people of Jerusalem.

In the story of Elijah, Elijah is the catalyst for the crisis.

He's the guy who goes to King Ahab and basically says, ‘Right, Ahab, you're not listening to God. There's going to be a drought..’ - for three years, was it? - and it doesn't rain for three years.

And what happens when there's no rain for three years? You're going to get a famine. And the king is really mad at Elijah. He's trying to hunt him down. And so, Elijah runs away a little bit, and he goes to Zarephath. (Zarephath's his great name!)

God directs Elijah to this widow. She's got a son, and she has literally nothing left. And she's just got enough oil and flour to make one more loaf of bread. Elijah says, ‘Hey, could you get me some water?’

‘Of course, sir. I'll get you some water.’

‘While you're at it, can you get me a loaf of bread?’

‘Well, I've only got enough oil and flour for one more loaf of bread, and then me and my son are going to eat it and die. Sorry, can't help you.’

And Elijah says, ‘The Lord will provide for all of us.’

And for the years that he lives with them, the oil and the flour never run out.

He has precipitated a crisis. ‘But because I trust in the Lord, and I encourage you to trust in the Lord, and because I am fulfilling the Lord's purpose, the Lord will provide.’ And the Lord does provide, until the rains come back again. Remember that picture of, he says to his servant, go and have a look. ‘Can you see any clouds yet?’

‘No, there's no clouds yet.’

‘Any clouds yet?’

‘No, there's no clouds.’

‘Are there any clouds?’

‘Ooh, I can see a cloud as big as my fist,’ says his servant.

‘Well, you’d better run, because if you don't get there fast, you're going to get caught in a deluge!’

And God was showing his power to King Ahab in that moment, but also showing his provision to Elijah.

Suddenly, there's enough water for everything to grow again and to meet the needs of an entire nation, and not just one person.

God can meet the one where they're at and he can meet the nation where they're at, as well!

Bex

What a miraculous thing that is. And I'm so grateful that we can remember that when each financial shock comes.

We are going to wrap up this episode here and next time we will be discussing Ponzi schemes, which is not a sentence I thought I'd be saying!

But what are they? Why do people invest in them and how they have caused financial crises? What we can learn from that and how we can respond to that in a biblical way?

Simon

Thanks for listening in, and hopefully we'll see you next time for the podcast.

Bex

Bye. That's it for this episode of ‘Where Your Treasure Is…’

Simon

Thanks for listening. Let's keep learning to be good stewards of all we’ve been given.

Bex

See you next time.