Shownotes
Episode Summary
Co-Founder & CEO of Agrilution, Max Loessl has a vision of bringing the revolutionary concept of vertical farming to every home to allow everyone to grow their own nutritious plants. Today, Harry and Max discuss the work Max and his co-founder have done to develop a viable Personal Vertical Farming System. Max shares what inspired his affinity for entrepreneurship and vertical farming, discusses the origins of Thought for Food, and expounds Agrilution’s offerings, including the Plantcube.
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Key Takeaways
04:27 – Harry welcomes Co-Founder & CEO of Agrilution, Max Loessl, to discuss his vertical farming origin story and the inspiration he got from the book, The Vertical Farm, and
13:14 – Lessons learned in the early years of vertical farming and how Max’s entrepreneurial spirit arose
17:56 – Failing Forward
20:44 – How Thought for Food came about
25:22 – Agrilution’s offerings and target market
27:55 – Challenges with hardware, software and controlling biology
31:37 – How Max has grown as a leader and why culture and communication are both critical
33:47 – Max speaks to the approach he takes in serving other markets and positive feedback on Agrilution appliances
42:35 – A tough question Max has asked himself recently and networking in the vertical farming industry
45:58 – What excites Max most about the future of Agrilution and vertical farming
47:00 – Harry thanks Max for joining the show and lets listeners know where they can learn more about Agrilution
Tweetable Quotes
“I was just so inspired, on the one side, drawing that grim reality that we’re living in and, on the other side, having that potential vision of the future of doing agriculture more in-line with our planetary boundaries.” (08:46) (Max)
“It [vertical farming] really is a multi-billion dollar industry, but it’s also nowhere close to the potential of where it could one day be, I think. We’re still in the very early days.” (14:58) (Max)
“We’ve basically invented this personal vertical farming category. It’s a home appliance in the size of a dishwasher with two layers. You can grow up to nine different plants per layers, so eighteen different plants in the entire product. And it takes care of the entire growing process, from seed to harvest.” (25:38) (Max)
“One thing to highlight is how critically important culture is and hiring the right people. The other thing is communication. Everything succeeds or fails with the right communication and setting up the right processes for communication.” (32:08) (Max)
Resources Mentioned
Agrilution Website – https://www.agrilution.com/
Agrilution LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/agrilution/
Agrilution Twitter – https://twitter.com/agrilution
Agrilution Pinterest – https://www.pinterest.de/agrilution/_created/
Agrilution Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/agrilution/
Agrilution Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/agrilution/
Max’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/loessl/?original_referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Egoogle%2Ecom%2F&originalSubdomain=de
Vertical Farming Episode feat. Max’s mother, Christine Zimmermann-Loessl –
Thought For Food – https://thoughtforfood.org/
Books Mentioned:
The Vertical Farm – https://www.amazon.com/Vertical-Farm-Feeding-World-Century/dp/0312610696
Abundance – https://www.amazon.com/Abundance-Future-Better-Than-Think/dp/1451614217
Sponsor Info
Cultivatd’s Website – https://cultivatd.com/
Cultivatd’s Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/cultivatdco/
Cultivatd’s Twitter – https://twitter.com/cultivatd
Cultivatd’s Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/cultivatd/
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Mentioned in this episode:
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
Transcripts
$680 million poured into precision ag last year.
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Speaker:available. Get your copy today at
Speaker:igrownews.com/precision. If you are starting a vertical
Speaker:farm and don't know where to begin or which technology would suit your needs,
Speaker:then reach out to the experts at Cultivated. As indoor farm brokers, they
Speaker:help connect you to the right technology and ensure your project is successful.
Speaker:Best of all, their service is free because they work on behalf of their
Speaker:partners. Visit cultivated.com to learn more. And
Speaker:that's spelled cultivadd.com,
Speaker:or click the link in the show notes. Maybe something to highlight is how
Speaker:critically important culture is and building culture and
Speaker:hiring the right people. And the other thing is probably communication,
Speaker:that everything succeeds or fails with right
Speaker:communication and setting up the right processes for communication
Speaker:and making sure that people speak up. You don't have too
Speaker:much of a hierarchical structure, but people,
Speaker:since you're a small group of people, and there are lots of different competencies,
Speaker:that everyone can really work within their competency.
Speaker:Welcome to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly conversations
Speaker:with fascinating CEOs, founders, and agtech
Speaker:visionaries. Join us every week as we dive deep into the
Speaker:world of vertical farming with your host, Harry Duran.
Speaker:Vertical Farming Podcast, Season 5. Welcome back. If this is your
Speaker:first time listening, I am sure that you're in the right place. This is the
Speaker:show where we interview fascinating CEOs and founders of the leading vertical farming companies
Speaker:from around the world. I'm your host, Harry Duran. In case you missed
Speaker:last week's episode, we had a return visit from Niko
Speaker:Kuyjoja, the CEO of NetLed. He spent the first part of his career
Speaker:in CEA as a grower and has spent the last decade in
Speaker:high-tech CEA and vertical farming development. In that
Speaker:episode, we discussed how the industry is growing and the opportunities that exist
Speaker:for competitors within the industry to share the advances to benefit everyone.
Speaker:It's very nice to have Niko back on and share the exciting
Speaker:developments that are happening at NetLed, especially with their new Vero farming
Speaker:technology. So make sure you check that out if you haven't already. Hey, it's Harry.
Speaker:I'm dropping in for a quick reminder that Indoor AgTech returns to Brooklyn, New
Speaker:York on June 23rd to 24th, and it's a gathering of the
Speaker:world's leading growers, retailers, investors, seed companies, and
Speaker:technology providers to meet, network, and cultivate— pun
Speaker:intended— new commercial relationships. Key themes covered during the
Speaker:2 days will be regenerating cities, tackling labor shortages,
Speaker:reducing costs and energy usage, plant science and seed optimization,
Speaker:beyond leafy greens, finance and investment, scalability and
Speaker:profitability, communicating with the consumer, and collaboration and partnership.
Speaker:It's going to be a jam-packed 2 days of content and connection. Can't
Speaker:wait to see you all there. indooragtechnyc.com, and let them know Harry sent
Speaker:you. This week I get to speak to Max Lossel. He's the CEO of Agrolution.
Speaker:Max has a vision of bringing CEA and vertical farming to every home and to
Speaker:allow everyone to grow their own nutritious plants. In this episode, we discussed
Speaker:the work Max and his co-founder have done to develop a viable personal
Speaker:vertical farming system. And he shares his affinity for
Speaker:entrepreneurship and discusses the origins of Thought for Food. We talk
Speaker:about Agrilution's offerings, including the Plant Cube, and really
Speaker:enjoyed this conversation with Max, getting to know a little bit about what's happening
Speaker:in his world. If you haven't already, make sure you sign up for Vertical Farming
Speaker:Weekly. Each week, our team member Noah brings you the latest and greatest in the
Speaker:world of vertical farming. You can sign up at verticalfarmingweekly.com.
Speaker:If you're enjoying this episode or past episodes, I'd love it if you leave a
Speaker:rating and a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp.
Speaker:Regular listeners already know that I'm more than happy to read those out on future
Speaker:episodes. So we're due for another round. So if you haven't already and you've
Speaker:been thinking about it, pause,
Speaker:ratethispodcast.com/vfp. Love to hear what you have to say.
Speaker:All right, let's jump into this conversation with Max. So Max
Speaker:Losow, co-founder and CEO of Agrilution, thank you so much for joining me
Speaker:on the Vertical Farming Podcast. Well, thanks for having me, Hari.
Speaker:Where's home for you? Usually in Munich, Germany, but
Speaker:I'm calling in from Italy at the moment. Okay. Is
Speaker:travel related to business or personal? More
Speaker:personal, I would say. Okay. Where did you grow up?
Speaker:So I was born in Munich in Germany, where the business is also
Speaker:located. But when I was 9 years old, we moved
Speaker:to China with the family because my, my mom was doing rural
Speaker:development work there, mainly helping women
Speaker:and smallholder farmers on the countryside. So I
Speaker:spent 3 years of my childhood in China, and
Speaker:then, yeah, I think that had a big impact on
Speaker:my life also leading up to entering the vertical farming
Speaker:space at some point, because at a young age I was
Speaker:already confronted with the topic of people not really
Speaker:having access to, to the bare necessities of life. So on
Speaker:the weekends, my, my parents often took my little sister and I to the
Speaker:countryside to some of the projects that they were working on. Wow. And
Speaker:so I was, yeah, faced with people living in
Speaker:extreme poverty and not having access to food or shelter or water.
Speaker:And on the other side, seeing the complete contrast in, in Western
Speaker:Europe where you have the abundance of everything and you walk into the
Speaker:supermarket like in the US and you just pick whatever you want from the shelf.
Speaker:And then having that contrast and having experienced both
Speaker:sides at an early age, I think, just stuck with me and got
Speaker:me thinking a lot and made me realize that I'm just very
Speaker:privileged growing up in Western Europe and having had the
Speaker:chance to do whatever I wanted. And then, yeah, but after a couple
Speaker:years, we moved back from China and I finished school
Speaker:back in Germany. And afterwards, I was
Speaker:sort of always looking to find a way to give back, given
Speaker:my consciousness of my situation,
Speaker:and didn't really know what to do, where
Speaker:to start. So I started reading a ton of books and traveled a
Speaker:lot, spent some time in Spain, then moved to New Zealand to
Speaker:work for Greenpeace. And that was an interesting
Speaker:experience as well because I sort of got to understand
Speaker:how closely related all of our
Speaker:global challenges are to agriculture and the way we
Speaker:used to do conventional farming or the way we do the majority of farming
Speaker:today. And how that on the one side helped
Speaker:a lot of people to move out of poverty and, you know, we
Speaker:helped, we were able to feed billions of people. And on the other side, we
Speaker:were, or still are, doing agriculture at the
Speaker:expense of our planetary resources. and at the
Speaker:expense of biodiversity. And so
Speaker:that then got me to read more books into that topic, and somehow I
Speaker:stumbled across the book The Vertical Farm by Dickson Despommiers.
Speaker:So that was like, I think, 11 years ago or so. That probably
Speaker:opened up a whole new world because the same thing happened for me because
Speaker:I read a book called Abundance by Peter Diamandis where he
Speaker:mentioned Dickson's book. And so I read that, and that that
Speaker:started this whole journey of the podcast and having these conversations.
Speaker:So after Greenpeace, you went to work as a trainee
Speaker:at PlantLab, and that was actually— it's probably tied into what you
Speaker:experienced in the book, but can you talk a little bit about what it was
Speaker:that was stirred inside of you when you read Dixon's book in terms of
Speaker:possibilities or how that sort of started to put you on this different path?
Speaker:Yeah, I really liked it because it gives a very general overview of
Speaker:the recent history of humanity and how we moved through the
Speaker:agricultural revolutions and started forming societies and all of that.
Speaker:It also talks about the problems or the downside of doing
Speaker:conventional agriculture, rural practices at the expense of our
Speaker:planetary resources and how it's
Speaker:just not sustainable if we continue like this. And especially with the sort of
Speaker:limited carrying capacity on this planet, we
Speaker:have to sort of find a way to live within the planetary boundaries.
Speaker:And so I was just so inspired by, on the one side,
Speaker:drawing that, yeah, the grim reality that we're living in, and
Speaker:on the other side, having that potential vision in the future of doing
Speaker:agriculture more in line with our planetary boundaries and
Speaker:more— doing it more sustainable and closer to the actual point of consumption. So
Speaker:closer to cities or in cities where the majority of us live.
Speaker:And I was so inspired by that book and by the potential that vertical farming
Speaker:promised that I just sent Dickson an email and He replied
Speaker:and we started exchanging thoughts. And I actually moved to the
Speaker:Netherlands based on his recommendation because he said,
Speaker:hey, why don't you, why don't you try to get an internship
Speaker:at PlantLab? They're like the leaders, or were the leaders back then.
Speaker:And so I tried, but they declined. But then I found out
Speaker:that their business was located on a university campus, and
Speaker:so I applied for the university. Yeah. Then I moved to the Netherlands to
Speaker:study there. How was that experience? Because you also, you know, and
Speaker:you can help me about here with the timing a little bit, but you became
Speaker:a youth ambassador for vertical farming as well. That's true,
Speaker:yeah. So I think I read the book
Speaker:2012, beginning of 2012 or end of 2011, and I
Speaker:think end of 2011. Then I moved to the Netherlands in 2012 to study.
Speaker:Already in my first semester Yeah, sort of
Speaker:started doing all the activities
Speaker:within my curriculum where we could do project-based topics. I always
Speaker:did something related to vertical farming, and then I started building a
Speaker:network and started reaching out to all the people, which back
Speaker:then it was like a handful of people really active in the space. So I
Speaker:had a very international network, like people from the
Speaker:US, like reaching out to Henry Gordon-Smith and
Speaker:actually getting got connected to him through Dickson back then,
Speaker:and then had contacts in Japan and in Europe and
Speaker:with the German Aerospace Agency, like all of the ones that were sort of
Speaker:starting out to do this. Wow. And had somehow
Speaker:started to do something in the vertical farming space. And
Speaker:that then led to the founding of the Association for Vertical
Speaker:Farming, because all of those contacts that we made,
Speaker:we tried to pool them. And then I pulled my mom in. So I
Speaker:think you had an interview with Christine. So she's my mother. I'm
Speaker:really curious, Max, what those conversations look like at
Speaker:the dinner table, because I, you know, and I'll make sure we
Speaker:link back to that episode with Christine, but there's always something exciting
Speaker:when you feel like you can have these dynamic conversations about things
Speaker:that are impacting the world. And, and sometimes a lot of
Speaker:we all feel a bit helpless when we have these conversations because you're like, what
Speaker:can I do? I'm just one person. And I'm just curious, just kind of
Speaker:fly on the wall, like those early conversations with you and your
Speaker:mother, because obviously we now know
Speaker:how much work she's, you know, you guys have put into this organization. But I'm
Speaker:just curious, you know, what those conversations were like early on. It
Speaker:was extremely helpful because back then, you know, I tried to pool all of the
Speaker:ideas and tried to make a business out of all of it. But she said,
Speaker:hey, why don't we take a part of it and, and sort of create like
Speaker:a nonprofit aspect where, where you focus just on building
Speaker:a network? And she had a lot of experience with that because she had
Speaker:actually created a non-for-profit linking German
Speaker:businesses and companies in Southeast Asia 10 years
Speaker:prior or so, helping like German industry expand to Southeast Asia
Speaker:and building a nonprofit network for that and doing
Speaker:non-governmental communications and stuff like that. And
Speaker:so she, she had a lot of experience in how to set that up
Speaker:from a legal, legal perspective. And then
Speaker:she just got really excited about the topic of vertical farming and
Speaker:sort of like stuck around. And now she is leading it on
Speaker:her own, more or less. And I'm actually— I actually stepped
Speaker:out like 4 years ago, operationally at least.
Speaker:I mean, we still chat about the topic over dinner, obviously,
Speaker:whenever we see each other, which is not that often
Speaker:anymore at the moment. But the conversation always
Speaker:shifts to vertical farming at some point in the dinner conversation.
Speaker:Max, if you had to— you spent a lot of time, and we talked, we
Speaker:touched upon it within your conversation with Christine about, you know, the
Speaker:origins and some of the things that were accomplished there. But I'm curious, from your
Speaker:perspective as a co-founder and advisory board member for the
Speaker:association, What were some of the takeaways for you? What were some
Speaker:of the things that you discovered or didn't know at the time? And
Speaker:as you were learning more and working with these companies, you know, what were some
Speaker:of the aha moments for you? I think what was interesting back then is
Speaker:everyone was sort of like focused on the sustainability
Speaker:potential of vertical farming and how it uses less water
Speaker:and you need less food miles and less
Speaker:fertilizer and it's more productive per square meter and all of these
Speaker:topics. No one is really looking at the full picture of the
Speaker:complete life cycle analysis. Everyone was only focusing on the usage
Speaker:phase of one of these farms. And obviously, yes, in the usage phase,
Speaker:you're more efficient and you're better, but looking at the entire life
Speaker:cycle is actually what needs to happen if you want to talk about
Speaker:sustainability and avoid people getting into the
Speaker:greenwashing area. So I think that's something
Speaker:where over the years now, I've sort of— it sort of
Speaker:like opened my eyes a bit as to Yes, vertical farming has
Speaker:potential, but it's nowhere close to where it needs to be to actually be
Speaker:sustainable, at least how the majority of us are doing
Speaker:it around the world. And I think the other side is
Speaker:that back then I always thought, okay, it's this huge thing and there's this huge
Speaker:market developing, but, you know, it was so
Speaker:niche, nothing was really happening. It was a handful of people like sort of
Speaker:tinkering around, uh, and now it's actually developing
Speaker:into an industry, but it took 10 years to get there. Back then it was
Speaker:sort of a couple of people tinkering around and getting their
Speaker:hands dirty and trial and error. And now
Speaker:it's, it really is a multi-billion dollar industry,
Speaker:but it's also nowhere close to the
Speaker:potential where it could one day be. I think
Speaker:we're still in the very early days even though we're 10 years down the road
Speaker:now. Yeah. And it's what's been fascinating is, is
Speaker:the front row seat you've had because of your early interest and, and
Speaker:And obviously in no small part because of your parents'
Speaker:interest in sort of creating a life for themselves
Speaker:and for their children that most kids
Speaker:in the Western world will never get to experience, to see
Speaker:the perspectives of how big populations of this
Speaker:globe live in terms of poverty, access to fresh
Speaker:food, fresh water, a lot of the things that we take for granted here. And
Speaker:I think I can't imagine how that could have not had
Speaker:an impact on you in terms of how you see the world, how
Speaker:you think about coming up with solutions. So it
Speaker:seems inevitable. I don't know how much of entrepreneurial
Speaker:blood that runs through your family as well, but I'm curious now as you start
Speaker:to think about the origin stories, you're working, you've worked with all these
Speaker:different organizations, you've had all this experience. What makes you think
Speaker:that this is something now that you want to tackle for yourself? and
Speaker:step into the world of starting a business and what that looks
Speaker:like in the early days? Yeah, good question. So
Speaker:in terms of entrepreneurial blood running through my veins, I
Speaker:think I have quite a bit of that because my dad's an entrepreneur, my grandpa
Speaker:was an entrepreneur, my mom's an entrepreneur. So I think that was
Speaker:sort of a given that I would probably end up that
Speaker:way at some point. But actually around the same time
Speaker:when I started discussing all of these ideas about vertical farming
Speaker:with my mother back then. Having, like, had an
Speaker:overview of what was going on in the space back then,
Speaker:the majority was either focused on building industrial-scale farms
Speaker:to produce food for large cities or for
Speaker:supermarkets, and the other
Speaker:part was focusing purely on the research aspect of it. And no one
Speaker:was really trying to make use of the benefits that vertical
Speaker:farming had to offer and bringing that right to the point
Speaker:of, or as close as possible to the actual point of consumption, so into
Speaker:people's homes. And that's how the idea for
Speaker:Agriolution really got started, is trying to take the
Speaker:benefits and cutting out the entire supply chain if possible,
Speaker:or the entire food supply chain, and then
Speaker:bringing that little mini vertical farm into
Speaker:your kitchen or living room to reduce the food miles
Speaker:into food steps. So that was really the
Speaker:idea behind it. And yeah, then obviously it took a long time
Speaker:to get to where we are today, but we can get into that in a
Speaker:sec, of course. Being an entrepreneur myself, and obviously,
Speaker:you know, one of the things you learn early on as an entrepreneur, and this
Speaker:might be a lesson that you were able to shortcut because of your family experiences,
Speaker:you have to be comfortable with failure. And as entrepreneurs, they
Speaker:teach you, you know, the first time you fail, you fall on your face, you
Speaker:sort of sit there in the mud and you're like, why did this happen to
Speaker:me? Or what did I do wrong? And I think the more you have those
Speaker:experiences, the more really what you learn as an entrepreneur is how to get
Speaker:up faster, how to get up and dust yourself off and be like,
Speaker:okay, that didn't work, on to the next one. And that didn't work. And then,
Speaker:and then you build up this resilience and you sort of like— I think I've
Speaker:heard it described as you're able to sort of like fail forward.
Speaker:You know, just keep reiterating, reiterating. And I'm wondering, in those early days,
Speaker:how many different ideas you had for what you thought Agriolution would be
Speaker:before it ended up becoming what it is now? Yeah,
Speaker:it took some time. And yes, it's a constant learning
Speaker:process. So I wouldn't even call it failures.
Speaker:I would just call it a lot of little learning steps along the way. And
Speaker:fail forward is a nice way of expressing it. I can relate to that.
Speaker:I think the first couple years were very slow because I had
Speaker:zero experience. It was the first company that I had founded, and also
Speaker:how I got into founding it was really random, or
Speaker:fate, or whatever you want to call it, because I just started talking to a
Speaker:lot of friends and peers and family
Speaker:about the topic of vertical farming and trying to
Speaker:build a miniature vertical farm in the shape of a
Speaker:consumer appliance, got reconnected with a good friend of
Speaker:mine who I used to play basketball with when I was a lot younger.
Speaker:And he had a background in
Speaker:mechatronics and mathematics, and his
Speaker:hobby was visualizing things in 3D software.
Speaker:So I told him about the idea and he was like, okay, cool, I'm going
Speaker:to try to render something so you can show people what you mean.
Speaker:Okay. And then Through another friend of mine, we
Speaker:got introduced to a business angel who was his boss at the
Speaker:time. And he liked the idea and said, hey, I'll give you guys
Speaker:€10,000 if you start a company, if you think you can build a
Speaker:prototype with €10K. And we were like super excited.
Speaker:Yeah, of course we're going to be able to do that. And that's why we
Speaker:founded the company. So we really had no idea what we were getting into back
Speaker:then. And then we started taking part in, obviously, $10K was not
Speaker:close, not nearly enough to actually develop a product.
Speaker:So we started taking part in like startup competitions and student
Speaker:competitions. And this was all like next to university. We did this on
Speaker:the weekends and evenings. And then we became
Speaker:runner-up at Thought for Food in 2013. Yeah,
Speaker:talk a little bit about that because I saw a little bit of that
Speaker:video on YouTube. So I'm curious, how that opportunity came
Speaker:about, which in and itself is exciting. And then obviously you start
Speaker:to get a little nervous about like, okay, how do we prepare for this? And
Speaker:so I'm curious if you could talk about how it came about and then
Speaker:internally as a team, how you decided you would prepare for it. And then we
Speaker:can talk about like, you know, the result you had. Sure. See, I was actually—
Speaker:the student competition Thought for Food was
Speaker:recommended to me by one of my teachers at
Speaker:university, actually. And because they got wind of
Speaker:what I was thinking about and they said, hey, why don't you apply here? It
Speaker:would be good publicity for the university and will
Speaker:probably help you in your business iteration process.
Speaker:And so, you know, without— again, without really
Speaker:thinking about it, we just signed up and took part. And then we got into
Speaker:the final— the round of the final 10 and got, I think, a
Speaker:couple thousand dollars back then to build a prototype for the
Speaker:pitch on stage. And then we had like a camera team come visit us
Speaker:and we did a whole video shoot while we were trying to build
Speaker:prototypes. And then we were all invited to Berlin
Speaker:to pitch at the competition. And that was super exciting. It was the first time
Speaker:I was on stage and presenting the idea. And there
Speaker:was a jury that gave feedback and there was actually someone in the jury
Speaker:that said, hey, why don't you focus on making the appliance
Speaker:cheaper and sort of like add an espresso-like revenue
Speaker:model behind it. I saw that comment. Yeah, that's the part that I saw
Speaker:with the feedback from the judges. Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, that then
Speaker:completely shifted my perspective of the business model
Speaker:behind it because back then we were always thinking about, okay, we have to sell
Speaker:a couple of these units to make revenue. But then we started
Speaker:understanding, okay, that's not really what it's about. The business model would be
Speaker:to sell units cheap to
Speaker:get an installed base of appliances out there to then sell
Speaker:consumables for these appliances. And
Speaker:that completely shifted my mind. And then based on that idea, we started developing a
Speaker:new pitch and then we started actually raising a first seed or pre-seed
Speaker:round and raised our couple of first couple hundred
Speaker:thousand euros back then. And then I was at the point
Speaker:where I said, okay, this is so exciting. This is what I've always
Speaker:wanted to do is like build my own thing. And I actually decided to drop
Speaker:out of university at that point, which was looking
Speaker:back at it, probably very stupid and risky. But at
Speaker:the time it felt like the right thing to do. And then we, I moved
Speaker:back to Germany and we started hiring the first people, started
Speaker:renting an office and then Very quickly almost ran
Speaker:out of money and then started raising a follow-on round, raised a couple million
Speaker:and actually had the opportunity to exit the company back
Speaker:then. We got an offer from a kitchen appliance company very
Speaker:early, but we were so
Speaker:convinced that what we were doing was the right thing and we wanted to do
Speaker:it our way that we declined and then started raising
Speaker:more capital and started going down the venture capital route. And
Speaker:building it on our own. So that's a pretty bold move on a couple of
Speaker:fronts. Number one, just deciding that you
Speaker:have the belief in what you're building and the passion and the
Speaker:drive, and maybe seeing this as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to,
Speaker:to forego college. I'm curious if that was a challenging
Speaker:conversation at home, but I think given your, your
Speaker:family's experience, maybe not so much. Not so much, actually. They encouraged me.
Speaker:They were like, yeah, go for it. You could always go back to university if
Speaker:you fail. Yeah, that's true. You can. Yeah. So they,
Speaker:they were very encouraging. They supported me big time. I actually moved back in with
Speaker:my parents at the time because I didn't have any
Speaker:money. Yeah, I think there's a
Speaker:lot of people that can— that are listening that can relate to that. Yeah, we
Speaker:moved into my parents' garage with the startup actually, and then
Speaker:we started from there for the first year. And again, the story
Speaker:of the garage startup is, is one that's very familiar to
Speaker:Americans, you know, when they think about how some of these tech companies
Speaker:like HP and Apple got started, they got
Speaker:started in garages as well. So you're in pretty good company there. And then the
Speaker:decision to, you know, forego,
Speaker:you know, giving up the company because you had a belief in your vision
Speaker:in what it is you wanted to build. So, you know, congratulations on sticking
Speaker:with that. And I'm sure that wasn't an easy decision to make as well. So
Speaker:I'm curious for folks that are just learning like your origin story,
Speaker:learning the story of Agrilution. How would you describe,
Speaker:you know, let's bring us to current date. How would you
Speaker:describe your current offerings and, and who you serve?
Speaker:We've basically invented this personal vertical
Speaker:farming product category, I would say. It's a home
Speaker:appliance in sort of the size of a dishwasher with
Speaker:2 layers. You can grow up to 9 different plants per
Speaker:layer, so 18 different plants in the entire product, and
Speaker:it takes care of the entire growing process from seed to harvest.
Speaker:So provides the right climate, the right light,
Speaker:automated watering. There's an app that comes with it that acts as the
Speaker:user interface, so you as a customer don't really need any
Speaker:experience or prior knowledge in growing plants, but
Speaker:it gives you tips and tricks and how to go about it. You get push
Speaker:notifications when things are ready to harvest. You can reorder
Speaker:consumables. And we've also
Speaker:invented a thing called a seed bar,
Speaker:which is a consumable with seeds inside. So it's a pre-seeded
Speaker:substrate. And we ship that dry to your
Speaker:doorstep, either on demand or in a subscription. And
Speaker:then people just plant whatever they want, from basil to
Speaker:arugula to chard to now chilies and
Speaker:tomatoes. Any— we have about 45
Speaker:different products that we offer at the moment. So it's this entire
Speaker:ecosystem basically that we provide, the
Speaker:one-stop shop or the one-size-fits-all solution for
Speaker:growing your stuff at home. We've really spent a hell of a lot of time
Speaker:and resources on making it as easy as possible to
Speaker:use from a user experience perspective. For people
Speaker:to have fun, to not fail, to always have success in
Speaker:growing fresh stuff. And the products look
Speaker:amazing, taste amazing, and the success rate is
Speaker:very, very high. And that's why I think we've had a lot of
Speaker:very positive reviews and happy customers that we've built over the past—
Speaker:of the last— over the past 3 years. We've only
Speaker:started shipping the products actually in 2019, so it took us 6
Speaker:years to actually develop this product ecosystem. And we're now
Speaker:75 people working on this. So it's,
Speaker:there's a lot of, a lot of time
Speaker:that's gone into making it work seamlessly.
Speaker:When you think about that timeframe, Max, what were some of the things
Speaker:where you were having, it took more time for you to make decisions about
Speaker:whether it's product market fit, whether it's when you
Speaker:start talking about appliances, you get into a whole other world
Speaker:of manufacturing, you know, because you also have to make the
Speaker:appliance look nice and function. At the same time, you have to grow
Speaker:something that people will enjoy and that's delicious. So I feel you have like a
Speaker:lot of like competing challenges. And I'm
Speaker:wondering, you don't have to name them all, but over this course of those 6
Speaker:years, what were some of the decision points where you had to make some tough
Speaker:decisions about you know, which, which was the right path for you moving forward?
Speaker:Yeah, I think the biggest challenge was really trying to
Speaker:get the hardware work together with the software and able to control
Speaker:biology. Because if outdoors you plant a seed and then you
Speaker:hope it grows, and sometimes the weather is good, sometimes it's bad, and
Speaker:sometimes the sun is more intense, sometimes it's less intense. But
Speaker:actually, like, making all the actuators and sensors work together
Speaker:in the machine in a controlled environment, because It's not an open
Speaker:system. It's actually a closed, like a little miniature
Speaker:controlled environment farm with a very high planting
Speaker:density. So we've put a lot of effort into
Speaker:developing our own LEDs, developing our own climate control,
Speaker:even some of the sensors we've developed, and sort of getting
Speaker:that loop to work between hardware,
Speaker:software to control biology that That was the most
Speaker:complicated aspect. And then having an easy-to-use and
Speaker:simple-to-manufacture consumable that comes with it was
Speaker:also complicated. I think the easiest part of it all was probably the app in
Speaker:the end. And now thinking about it, it's always funny, you know, because I
Speaker:have other people amongst friends
Speaker:that are also founders of companies and some of them build apps.
Speaker:And they have a company that builds apps with 20, 30, 40, sometimes
Speaker:more people. And all they do is build an app. And
Speaker:our app is also nice and people love using
Speaker:it, but that's like a tiny fraction of what we do.
Speaker:Then we have mechanical engineers and software engineers and plant
Speaker:scientists and marketing and design and customer
Speaker:success and operations and finance. You know, we've sort of
Speaker:really like built an entire miniature company that does
Speaker:everything from the beginning of the supply chain till the finished
Speaker:product in the end. And then a big, big part of
Speaker:what we've spent time on is industrializing the product to make it cheap to
Speaker:produce or affordable to produce and
Speaker:going through, yeah, finding someone that can manufacture
Speaker:something like this in Europe at an affordable price. That
Speaker:was, that took a long time. And then getting all of these
Speaker:processes right, like sourcing hundreds of components, to
Speaker:then actually build the thing and get it certified and ship it and
Speaker:make sure that everything you ship always looks nice and works in the
Speaker:end. And the manufacturing or
Speaker:industrialization of it was a very
Speaker:steep learning curve. And then at the same time,
Speaker:building a company and hiring people, and I had
Speaker:zero experience in that as well, but I think now, like,
Speaker:10 years looking, it's been almost 10 years. It's— we're in our,
Speaker:in our 10th— no, sorry, in April it was 9. It was 9
Speaker:years. So you just learn along the way
Speaker:and you fail and you iterate and you test a new thing. And
Speaker:it's a super exciting journey. It doesn't really get boring.
Speaker:How have you grown as a leader? I mean, this is your
Speaker:first project, or this is your first company that you— where you're,
Speaker:you know, you had a lot of experience with organizations, but there's something
Speaker:different when you are like, you know, the in charge of
Speaker:making the decisions. And, and granted, you build a very solid team, but
Speaker:I'm just curious what that journey has been like for you leading the company,
Speaker:and then what, what, what some of the lessons or relationships with
Speaker:mentors that have helped you along the way. A lot of things.
Speaker:So maybe something to highlight is how
Speaker:critically important culture is and building
Speaker:culture and hiring the right people. And the other thing is probably
Speaker:communication, that everything succeeds
Speaker:or fails with right communication and setting up the right
Speaker:processes for communication and making sure that
Speaker:people speak up and you have a— you
Speaker:don't have too much of a hierarchical structure, but
Speaker:people— since you're a small group of people and there are lots of different
Speaker:competencies, that everyone can really work within their
Speaker:competency and make the decisions, or at least
Speaker:suggest or make recommendations within their expertise. Because
Speaker:it doesn't really make sense for, for myself or Philip, who leads the
Speaker:technical aspect, to micromanage everyone and think, you know, since we've been doing
Speaker:this the longest and we're the leaders, we need to make the shot. Call the
Speaker:shots and make the decisions, but that we actually empower
Speaker:people to become leaders themselves and then sort of like
Speaker:build a second row beneath us of young
Speaker:leaders and managers that then again encourage the
Speaker:people within their teams to develop themselves. And we were all
Speaker:very young people. I mean, some of the people that we
Speaker:hired in the very beginning, like our head of software, Jacob, example,
Speaker:he's been around for 9 years now, and he's gone through that entire learning
Speaker:process with us, and he now has one of the biggest teams in
Speaker:the company and has become a leader himself.
Speaker:So, that was a very interesting journey, is like learning to deal with people and
Speaker:how important communication is in that aspect. Part
Speaker:of the product offering is towards
Speaker:homes, but also kitchens, because you've got Plantcube and Plantcube
Speaker:Living and Plantcube Kitchen. Can you talk a little bit about the, the idea of
Speaker:how you support those different markets and any and all
Speaker:strategy or approach as you're starting to serve those different markets?
Speaker:Yeah, for sure. So we started out with the Plantcube Kitchen. That was the first
Speaker:product that we brought to market beginning of 2019.
Speaker:Back then, we were marketing as an appliance that
Speaker:you could either build in or integrate into, into into your kitchen or
Speaker:use standalone. You could sort of do— it would fulfill
Speaker:both functions. But it was made within the right
Speaker:dimensions that you could integrate it, but you didn't have to because
Speaker:we didn't want to limit ourselves on purely the market of
Speaker:new kitchens that were being built. And then over
Speaker:the last years, we've put a lot of resources into developing
Speaker:a completely freestanding unit. So that's
Speaker:why now the Plantcube Kitchen is positioned as an appliance that you build
Speaker:in, and we sell that through retailers
Speaker:in Europe. So people that buy a
Speaker:new kitchen, they can like have that appliance integrated
Speaker:seamlessly into their kitchen. And to not
Speaker:limit ourselves and to also open it up to a lot more people,
Speaker:we've developed a completely new appliance called the Plantcube Living, which is
Speaker:a freestanding unit. The focus there was really
Speaker:making it as accessible as possible, not only in terms of not having to
Speaker:integrate it, but also in terms of the price point. So we were able to
Speaker:reduce the price from €3,000, where
Speaker:our premium unit, the Plantcube Kitchen, is at, to below €1,000 now,
Speaker:which makes it, I think, way more affordable and accessible to a lot of people.
Speaker:Yeah, the other nuance of the, the Plantcube
Speaker:Living is that it comes with a very nice
Speaker:finishing. So the unit is a bit taller and it's less deep, so you can
Speaker:place it nice on a wall or something.
Speaker:And it has a fabric finishing on the
Speaker:outside, so you can get it either as a, as a light gray or a
Speaker:dark gray version with fabric. So it also looks nice in your living room. You
Speaker:don't have to place it Very, very beautiful units. Thank you.
Speaker:And so what's been the response so far? And how much of the feedback
Speaker:that you get from existing clients are you using to continue to
Speaker:iterate the product? We've actually tried to loop in
Speaker:our customers very closely. So sort of like a customer
Speaker:feedback journey for a period of a couple of months
Speaker:where we worked very closely with a couple of customers that were
Speaker:able to give feedback on the entire user journey
Speaker:and then took all of that feedback into developing this new
Speaker:product, the Plantcube Living. And we also iterated on the Plantcube Kitchen.
Speaker:For example, initially in the early days, you could only plant
Speaker:4 different varieties per layer, and then I think
Speaker:people somehow felt limited by that. So now we have 9 per layer.
Speaker:We expanded the portfolio a lot. We
Speaker:completely redid the app based on user feedback.
Speaker:And also things like the light
Speaker:pollution that you have in your living room or in your kitchen from one of
Speaker:these appliances was a bothering
Speaker:aspect to, to some customers. So we completely redid the
Speaker:front and sort of have like dark
Speaker:tinted glass now. So not that much light. gets out of the appliance
Speaker:anymore. Noise was a topic, so we
Speaker:exchanged the entire— rebuilt the entire climate system.
Speaker:LEDs were a topic, so we redid those to make them
Speaker:more energy efficient. So, yeah, we work very closely
Speaker:based on customer feedback, and they can also recommend plants, for example, that they
Speaker:like to grow, and then we add them or we start testing them in our
Speaker:lab, which then takes a couple months. And then once we're happy with the
Speaker:quality and the yield and the taste, then they get
Speaker:released to customers. And we're starting to build like an early
Speaker:feedback group of customers that get to trial new things
Speaker:before we then launch them to the entire customer base, now that we're having
Speaker:a growing customer base to do that.
Speaker:And I think that's the right approach because the first product we wanted
Speaker:to build, we sort of like built it from our perspective
Speaker:and how we would have wanted it. And it was
Speaker:somewhat successful. But I think now that we use all of the feedback from the
Speaker:customers and actually build something that the customers want, and not just
Speaker:the team wants, or I want, it's a lot more
Speaker:successful. And the product's also way better. What's the
Speaker:footprint look like? Where— what parts of the—
Speaker:what countries are you in? And what's that plan look like going forward?
Speaker:We started out in Germany, then we expanded to Austria,
Speaker:Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium, so Central
Speaker:Europe. And that's where we're still located, but
Speaker:obviously the US is an interesting market, so we're eyeing an
Speaker:expansion there. Yeah, sort of had like a little trial
Speaker:experience in the United Arab Emirates, but moved back from
Speaker:that market due to some bad experiences.
Speaker:But I think the most interesting new market that we're eyeing is the
Speaker:US. Yeah, when that steps up and you're starting to
Speaker:make more inroads, definitely let's regroup or just reach out.
Speaker:I'd be interested to see what that plan looks like. And it
Speaker:seems like if you tackle it right and with all
Speaker:the research you've done with the current
Speaker:countries you've launched in and all this feedback, this really positive feedback that you say
Speaker:you're getting from your clients and they're helping you
Speaker:reiterate the product and make it better. You know, you talked about the
Speaker:lighting, you talked about the sound, and I think as you start to
Speaker:improve the product, you'll eventually, when you do, if and when
Speaker:you do come to the US market, I think you'll have like a really
Speaker:solid product that's, I think, going to perform well. And I think I
Speaker:expect we'll get a good reaction here from the States. Yeah, I
Speaker:hope so. I mean, the expectations are high
Speaker:for one of these units, I think. So yeah, I think
Speaker:looking at this personal vertical farming market, there isn't that
Speaker:much competition out there yet. It's going to be very interesting
Speaker:to see what happens when we enter the US. I don't know if you've
Speaker:seen, but for example, LG launched an
Speaker:appliance in South Korea. And it's very
Speaker:interesting because it's sort of like a copy of what our
Speaker:first iteration looked like. And we also know that they bought some of our
Speaker:units back in the day and took them apart. We did the same with theirs,
Speaker:and it's good to see that we're still on the cutting edge
Speaker:of development and have a lead there. So it's going to be
Speaker:interesting to see if, for example, Samsung drops an appliance or something like that.
Speaker:But I would say in terms of the startups, that are out there in the
Speaker:personal vertical farming space, we're still
Speaker:in a comfortable situation. So it's going to be interesting to
Speaker:see who launches new products in the near future.
Speaker:Yeah, and it's interesting what they say with these types of products,
Speaker:or basically in any industry, once you see other competitors enter the
Speaker:space, it really is a sign that the industry is
Speaker:growing, that this specific niche of it is growing, that people are having
Speaker:an interest in it, because if some of the big players or expressing interest,
Speaker:you know, who knows where that could end up because you seem— you
Speaker:definitely have the experience. I mean, just from your
Speaker:background, all the connections you have in the industry,
Speaker:it feels like you definitely have first mover advantage and you're continuing to iterate.
Speaker:So you're— I feel like you're definitely ahead of where they are and where they
Speaker:want to be. And so the fact that you're on their radar and they're looking
Speaker:to copy you is a good sign for you. But it also
Speaker:keeps, you know, a fire lit under you and the team to make
Speaker:sure you can't rest because there's always people looking to like, uh, eat
Speaker:your lunch, as they say in the States. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, these
Speaker:are multi-billion dollar companies, you know. If Samsung
Speaker:moves into the space and they produce something with
Speaker:their marketing machinery and their capital behind them,
Speaker:that's, that's definitely potential competition.
Speaker:And same goes for, for consumer venture-backed
Speaker:consumer companies in the US. Um, I mean, some of these companies are
Speaker:very well funded, so it's going to be interesting to see if, if
Speaker:anything happens there. A couple of questions as
Speaker:we, as we wrap up. What's a tough question you've had to ask yourself
Speaker:recently? Probably the, the
Speaker:toughest one at the moment, um,
Speaker:is if I would still have the same
Speaker:motivation doing what I'm doing if the product
Speaker:is purely a lifestyle product and doesn't
Speaker:add a huge benefit in terms of sustainability.
Speaker:I haven't been able to, to make a final conclusion on that yet though. Yeah,
Speaker:yeah, it's interesting. I think, um, you are making
Speaker:inroads into this as a lifestyle product, but there could be opportunities,
Speaker:economies of scale maybe down the road where you could essentially turn—
Speaker:there's a light version of this or a version of this that
Speaker:has the same amount of yield, more yield at a smaller price point. I'm
Speaker:sure you're learning a lot about what works and sometimes maybe it is
Speaker:making inroads into it as a lifestyle product that gives you some of these. Because
Speaker:if you hadn't been doing all these iterations and to your
Speaker:point testing, getting the the feedback from your clients,
Speaker:you wouldn't have that drive to make— continue to make the product
Speaker:better and better. So I think, you know, that could be something where you could
Speaker:in fact find yourselves in an opportunity to do something
Speaker:that goes beyond it as a lifestyle. But I definitely think you're on the right
Speaker:path. Thank you. It's nice to hear. How has
Speaker:the relationships that you've been building along these years
Speaker:you know, we're happy that conferences or travel is back up. So now you can
Speaker:have discussions with some of those peers. You did, you've mentioned folks like, you
Speaker:know, Dixon Despommiers, like Henry Gordon Smith, that you're able to build
Speaker:relationships with. How important have those relationships been as you've
Speaker:been growing the company? And, you know, now some of these people that
Speaker:were mentors are now some of your colleagues now. And I'm
Speaker:curious what that evolution has looked like. I think in the beginning it was
Speaker:super helpful to have that network, to not have to make all of the
Speaker:mistakes myself. but sort of learn from
Speaker:mistakes or trials and errors of others. And also having
Speaker:access to sourcing components
Speaker:and getting someone to consult us on LEDs or
Speaker:getting someone to consult on some plant science or plant
Speaker:disease aspect or whatever. But I think the more we
Speaker:shifted into this appliance category, no one
Speaker:really had any experience in that area. But
Speaker:since we partnered with, with Miele in, in
Speaker:2019, with this big home appliance company,
Speaker:we sort of got that, that expertise on board through them.
Speaker:But I think, yeah, the more we shifted into completely this personal
Speaker:home appliance aspect, the less the
Speaker:network was really of help, apart from some people
Speaker:that are just very good with plants and have
Speaker:sort of like a very green thumb. Those are the people that
Speaker:I'm also still in touch with a lot, like one of my
Speaker:professors from university, for example, Jasper den Besten, who's also on
Speaker:the advisory board of the AVF, or Gert-Jan
Speaker:Meijers, who was one of the founders of PlantLab but who has a new company
Speaker:now. So those are definitely people that I still look up to and
Speaker:am in touch So Max, as we wrap up, what has
Speaker:you most excited if you think about the next 12 to 18 months
Speaker:with what you have on tap? You know, to the extent that there's stuff you
Speaker:can speak about at Agriolution, you know,
Speaker:as you, as you look forward, what are some of the things that you're most
Speaker:excited to be working on? The things that I'm most
Speaker:excited to be working on, I cannot talk about, unfortunately.
Speaker:But, but something that's upcoming that I can mention is that we're releasing
Speaker:a bunch of new seed bars with chilies and tomatoes
Speaker:very soon. So that's exciting that we've found
Speaker:varieties that are small enough and provide high enough
Speaker:yields and consistent enough quality that
Speaker:we can release to the public now. So that's, that's something
Speaker:that's exciting. And yeah, then
Speaker:potentially expanding to, to other regions and
Speaker:diversifying into to more product variants
Speaker:down the road. But those are the things that I unfortunately can't go into
Speaker:any detail. Well, definitely keep us updated. We do put out a weekly
Speaker:newsletter on stuff that's happening in the space. And so as soon as you have
Speaker:new updates, we'd love to share them with our audience. But definitely going to
Speaker:invite people to head on over to
Speaker:agrilution.com to learn more. Is there any other
Speaker:places folks can connect with you if they want to learn more? Well, with
Speaker:me personally on LinkedIn. But other than that, the
Speaker:website is always a good resource if anything interesting happens, or Instagram,
Speaker:the Aggredition Instagram. Those are probably the 2
Speaker:go-to channels. We have an interesting newsletter, but it's only in German at the moment.
Speaker:So that's probably not that relevant for the audience.
Speaker:Yeah, I imagine if you do have someone who can
Speaker:translate that, there'll probably be some folks in the States or
Speaker:English-speaking countries that are probably curious about what you have
Speaker:coming up. So that might be a good project to tackle
Speaker:in the future. For sure. So the website is available in English and
Speaker:Instagram's in English, but I think once we officially
Speaker:announce that we're coming to the US, then we'll launch an English newsletter as well.
Speaker:Well, Max, I'm glad Christine connected us. I always like asking the
Speaker:question at the end if there's anyone else I should be speaking to, and Your
Speaker:name came up quickly and it's really exciting to see.
Speaker:It's hard sometimes to stay on top of everything that's happening in the space and
Speaker:there's so much happening very quickly and
Speaker:also companies like yours that have been doing this slowly and
Speaker:at least quietly for me, maybe not quietly for you, but making inroads
Speaker:into different niches. And there is no one
Speaker:company when it comes to what's happening in the vertical farming space and I'm
Speaker:glad we got to tell your story, so I appreciate you coming on and sharing
Speaker:it. Thank you. Well, thank you very much for having me. It was a good
Speaker:conversation. I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks again to Max for coming on the show
Speaker:and sharing his story. I'm always appreciative of the hour that my
Speaker:guests spend with me on the show and opening up and talking
Speaker:about origin stories and what motivates them. And hopefully that inspires you, the
Speaker:listener, as well. Thanks to our Season 5 title sponsor,
Speaker:Cultivated. If you're looking into a vertical farm and don't know where to start or
Speaker:which technology would suit your needs, reach out to them today. Best of all, their
Speaker:service is free because they work on behalf of their partners. Learn more at
Speaker:cultivated.com, and that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D.com.
Speaker:Just leave out that last E. Don't forget that I will be attending Indoor
Speaker:AgTech NYC in New York City. I get on a plane
Speaker:Wednesday evening, so if you're going to be in town at the
Speaker:conference, please, uh, say hi and I'll, uh,
Speaker:I'd love to connect with you. Tickets still available, indooragtechnyc.com.
Speaker:Podcast production and marketing provided by Fullcast. Learn more at
Speaker:fullcast.co if you're interested in learning how a podcast can
Speaker:be helpful for your business.
Speaker:ratethispodcast.com/vfp if you want to leave a rating and a review, and we'll be sure
Speaker:to read those out on future episodes. Thanks so much for all you do to
Speaker:support the show, spreading the word, connecting, engaging with us on
Speaker:social. I really appreciate it. Tune in next week for my conversation with
Speaker:another fast Fascinating leader from the world of vertical farming, Stephen Eaves, CEO
Speaker:and founder at VoltServer. Until we meet again, here's to
Speaker:your health. Thanks for listening. To read the full show notes for this
Speaker:episode, which includes any links mentioned in the episode, as well as
Speaker:a full show transcription, visit
Speaker:verticalfarmingpodcast.com. There, you can sign
Speaker:up for our email list to be notified when new episodes are published.
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