In this episode of Beyond the Build Louise Bloxham leads a panel discussion at the Local Government Association annual conference in Bournemouth on the topic of social value in the UK construction industry.

Joined by Abi Brown, Chair of the LGA's Innovation and Improvement Board, Vanessa Good, Business Development Manager at Scape, and Natalie Webster, Senior Social Sustainability Manager at Kier Construction, they explore the importance of public-private partnership, the need to go beyond the bare minimum, and the link between procurement and social value strategy.

They also discuss the effectiveness of the social value model and the role of organizations like the LGA in promoting dialogue and addressing the challenges faced by the industry.

Don't forget you can find out more at kier.co.uk/podcasts

I think it's vital, isn't it, really? We're in a space where actually that's what's going to happen. There isn't going to be a sudden influx of new money coming forward, is there? Really. Whichever government we have, presuming we'll have a general election in the next 12 months and we may potentially have a change of government, we've seen some big sums allocated to councils, we hear a lot about inflation. The announcement yesterday from the Secretary of State in terms of the ability of councils to move up to 30 percent of their funds around and between Levelling Up, Towns Fund and Future High Streets, shows that listening from the government of the need to reflect on inflationary pressures on these projects. But the reality is there are very few councils out there who've got pockets deep enough to be able to go to PWLB, borrow the cash and deliver the project on their own. And actually, we've probably not got the people to do it anyway. So it's always going to be about partnership, isn't it, moving forward? And increasingly for places like mine, around turning the dial in terms of bringing in more private investment, which means you are definitely in that partnership space. I also think, there is also that increasing awareness, isn't there, that whatever your political ideology is, you want to be working with somebody else to do it.

So, therefore, it's got to be a partnership, hasn't it, around where you are, and it is always about more than just producing a building, isn't it? It's about actually making a difference. for residents within that place that evolves around whatever that building is you're putting forward. I think it's a really great time to start talking about these sorts of evolutionary partnerships and how they really deliver the place.

We spoke to Claire yesterday, who can't join us unfortunately, but she was talking about the importance, given the challenges, the importance of developing more of an entrepreneurial spirit. You know, given the scarcity of resources and the challenges that the world at large is facing and really sort of thinking outside the box and pushing ourselves to do that. Vanessa does the environment exist to do that? We can all probably say we absolutely buy into that as an idea, but what's the reality?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in terms of framework, we work with industry to actually look at creating that step change. So it would be really easy for you to come to a client and say, we can go to a careers fair, we can take on an apprentice, that's it. But actually, if that's not what the industry, what clients want, then we need to make sure that we're pushing contractors to think differently and think outside the box. And a classic example is during lockdown. Work experience was due to happen in May, we locked down in March and one of our directors went out and said, what can we do? How can we solve this problem? Went out to the industry and the industry came back and we did a learning in lockdown online experience and it was phenomenal. That was a classic example of all of our partners responding to us, Industry responding to us and saying we could put this together and then Scape driving that to make it happen in about two weeks I think they put the whole thing together. So yeah, absolutely there's an appetite I think from customers to certainly have something different from the tick box.

I'm sorry to say that, but sometimes it feels like we've done that. It's not, it's about creating legacies and creating kind of ongoing community benefits that are really tangible and really make a difference.

Absolutely. Is the link between procurement and social value strategy strong enough?

Definitely not. We've been exhibiting over at conference and we've had a number of people come to the stand and say to us that we're writing policy around procurement. We want to understand how to deliver outcomes. How do we write that policy to make sure that we get social value outcomes? We get outcomes around decarbonisation and net zero. And what we say is if you procure in the way that you've always procured, you'll get what you always got. You know, you're not gonna get anything different. So you do really have to think differently and your procurement will actually drive those outcomes. And a lot of what you'll be doing is engaging very early with the contractor.

So yeah, I'd say at the moment, very disconnected and often very focused on different things. The council will have its strategic objectives and procurement will be looking, sad to say, cost. Just what? What's the cost? So they're not thinking about what they're trying to deliver on behalf of the council. So yeah, it needs to run all the way through and get to the level of your procurers need to understand that they're procuring for those outcomes.

And Natalie, you've been nodding. From a contractor's perspective, are we experiencing that as Kier?

It's interesting because while we're doing everything that we can to bridge that gap, you can see it from a contractor side, and you can see it from a council side. The people that are, are gonna be interested in social value aren't always necessarily the project delivery team on client or contractor side. So it's about really bringing those teams together efficiently so that we can all communicate and having those really clear outcomes and exactly as you say, early engagement is so key to that. It's really about setting those really clear expectations and carrying them through. I think it's something that we're definitely getting better at but it's still got, yeah, some way to go.

So, I mean, does something like the social value model, does that help with that process or help councils to decide whether to focus the resource and where they'll get the most impact?

I think the model sets out a really good set of questions, themes and metrics for procurement. But where it maybe lacks is a little bit in that contract management side of things. So actually, once we get into contract, how do you then make sure that those promises are being delivered on? You go into a client project meeting and they might not be asking about the social value commitments that you originally put in the bid. And that's not right. It should be continuously on the agenda all the way through so that we can be held to account properly. I think that's maybe where the model doesn't quite have that guidance around how that can be done aside from the reporting metrics that sit within it.

Abi, is there a role for an organisation like the LGA to play in doing that for local government, or is it just too different? Would it just be too difficult to do?

I'm never going to say we ought to have more regulation around this, but I do think the kind of opportunity for the LGA to bring this forward as a talking point is definitely there, isn't it? I think a really interesting issue at LGA Conference. A developer that I brought to Stoke on Trent, has been here as a, as a kind of a foot delegate, and they were talking to me about how impressed they were really with what was going on here, and also kind of where developers play into a space like the LGA Conference, so you don't want to turn it into a development conference, but actually almost starting to step into those, you know, this is a space to talk about the big issues. In our sector, not to necessarily marry up with developers and things like that, but actually, I think it is a really good thing that's going to start to come forward. And maybe this is again the space to talk about that, whether you want to formalize that into a framework. It's probably not from the sentiment of the LGA's work, but I think definitely, you know, It is an opportunity for the LGA to start to, to broach that. And we all want the best for our places. And part of the work that I lead at the LGA is around challenging ourselves to pick up best practice and to ensure that we are doing that to do the best for our residents and, you know, maybe starting to talk around some of those bigger issues around the development world.

So, Vanessa, as a framework provider, you, can see both sides quite easily in terms of delivering the best value from a local authority point of view and something which is achievable for a contractor. Is there a gap I think between the sort of local authority needs and what you're seeing there and what contractors can deliver or actually are we pretty well aligned?

Well I think we're really fortunate because when we procure part of the tender is what will you deliver in terms of social value. So we work with the biggest in the industry who understand how to do it. They're well versed at doing it. So, you know, we've got contractors coming to us who have that desire to do it, that ability to do it and the right connections to deliver it. So we don't struggle in terms of conversations around social value, either with the delivery partner or with the client. And because our framework has got it embedded in there. It's what we talk about as a framework team, we'll go out and talk about social value. Have you considered social value? What do you require? Part of the process is that right up front when we talk to the customer, they have to go through what's their priority.

What is it they're looking for? And sometimes they won't know the answer to that, but it makes. and think right from the outset, what do I want to deliver? And then we'll say, you might want to go and talk to your health and wellbeing team, because there may be an agenda around active travel or something like that. You know, so there may be other things that perhaps they, the estates team hasn't considered. So we don't tend to see customers that say we don't want social value. You know, pretty much they all do. What gets delivered through the framework is much, much higher than what is kind of industry standard. I think we're in a really lucky position to kind of almost act as advisors around that, and just help that thought process around what should we do? Because sometimes it can feel big and scary, but it's really not. And to know that we've got that expertise is really quite comforting.

And as you were saying earlier as well, those conversations that you've been having even here at the LGA, people coming and asking you about social value and about, you know, what, some quality around devloping strategy and so on. So it's playing out even here, I guess. Yeah, which is good. Yeah. So Natalie, we've been talking about the social value model a little bit, but obviously it's not the only model. There are various models and frameworks and so on that local authorities can use. To what extent is that useful or just confusing? You know, can we, can we get to a point where we can actually just have a model which is flexible, but fit for purpose?

Yeah, so in terms of the social value model, it doesn't kind of promote any form of monetisation of any particular initiative. So it purely looks at when you're tendering and the kind of questions it asks it purely asks for the qualitative response in order saying this is what I will do. And it doesn't measure the social value in a monetary sense as for example, if you're, tendering through the social value portal who have their own National TOMs that would then be measured in kind of more like a cost way, like you would in a tender. And so that's quite a key difference between those. It doesn't advocate for monetary kind of valuation, but also it doesn't say argue against it either. And then you have got various methodologies, various tools that can now calculate that for you. And within the construction industry, particularly, we're seeing there's quite a lot of variation in those different measurements. For example, within Kier, we use a system called Thrive.

They've got their own set of metrics and they've got their own set proxy values that then will mean that we can put in all of our initiatives and say we've produced X amount of social value. However, if we then put them through a different system, it would come out with a different value. That's kind of one of those things you've got to pick a team to play for, and that's how we go about it. And I think if there could be something that's done industry wide, a collaboration to say actually, we're going to stick to this one measurement framework and that's going to be something that we see across the board, that would make everybody's lives a lot easier and mean that you can actually compare the value that's delivered from contractor to contractor. But within the Scape framework, for example, it's the National TOMS that is the framework that's used there. So at least within that scope, you can see that, but if you take contractors outside that, what they would present externally can be quite different. So I think it can make things confusing. Yeah.

It's interesting, isn't it? So where does the leadership come from to make that happen, to develop that national framework? I think I'd be really interested to hear what each of you think about that, actually. How do, how do we get to that point?

I think one really strong thing that, um, has been continuously going on throughout construction frameworks and particularly with SCAPE as well, is the collaboration and the working groups that go on. So, you know, there's a social value working group where the contractors will come together. There's net zero carbon, modern slavery, and these can be really great forums for that kind of change. It can mean that we can come together, share ideas, share frustrations. We're all normally going through quite similar experiences. So I think that actually there can be really good forums for that.

Similar to Natalie, really. I mean, that's one of the beauties of framework is that we do get the delivery partners working together on working groups, actually looking at these things. I think the main thing is that we have to make it possible for those further down the supply chain to be able to understand it and be able to know how to deliver it. I guess with the different models, you're right, we're TOMs through and through kind of thing, so that's what I know and it can just be really confusing and if you don't have, you know, for you, you've got teams, we've got teams that are focused on social value. If you're a smaller supply chain, one man band, how do you know where you go, you know? So I think probably those are kind of things that get discussed at these working groups and brought up and maybe ideas around how that can be solved. But yeah, it's difficult when there's competing kind of models.

Indeed. And Abi, to you in terms of that leadership?

I'd love if there was one measurement methodology that we all stuck to so that we could actually really understand the impact, but I think that word impact is really, really important. It's not about what we deliver and what we do in terms of social value. It's about what impact that has on the communities and individuals, and you really need to be able to see that longevity of that kind of having the knock on impact that we all hope it will have. So I think in terms of social value and it moving on, I'd much prefer to see the measurement actually being on what that impact is to communities rather than just we've delivered X number of hours of this that and the other.

And Vanessa?

Yeah, similar thing really. So I mentioned tick box earlier and I once heard a story about a company that went into a school and did a kind of two, three hour session on cyber security and then walked away and went we've done our social value. And my question around that would be, did any of those children then go on to study cybersecurity? What was the ongoing impact? What was the outcome off that activity that you did? Because it's not about the activity. It is about the long term impact on the community. So that's the conversations that I want to see happening over the next 10 year period. You know, it's great that we're talking a lot more about social value. It's great that customers are coming to us and actually asking us about it. But yeah, I want them now to not just be saying, that's an activity it's done.

It wants to be kind of long term.

Yeah. And Abi?

So for me, it's probably a bit of the unpacking the box around really understanding from a local authority point of view, what your challenges are. There's a big debate, less so at the moment but I feel it's coming back from the second half of this year around levelling up and what that means. I think we've got beyond the fact that it's not north versus south, rural versus urban. It's actually about what's right for your place. I think there's a good environment around building things, built environments, as we've talked about already. But actually it is that bit around what does the impact it have on your place? And therefore, what does that mean for people? And I guess an element of a greater understanding around that. I think there's some really great projects out there, but as we see it, I suspect a focus on government policy, where there's a strong element around place, and I think we're starting to get there in terms of the people element. And I've talked before about my frustration with trying to leverage government's interest in public health and equalities, for example, within my place.

How do you really get into things like that? Where do you go to with social value when, for example, in Stoke on Trent, you've got a really high rate of infant mortality? I think we can do some really good, strong stuff around aspiration, around learning, around homelessness, but when you get into those really big things, like public health inequalities, where are we going... we need to start making some advances I think in terms of social value around that.

Thank you very much. It's your turn now, if you've got any questions.

Hello, thank you. Andrew Bannister from SCAPE to nobody's surprise, I think. That was really interesting, really enlightening. We had three different but related points of view, and we've had leadership from a local authority, we have somebody working very closely in the, in the procurement side of this, and we have somebody who is a specialist in a contractor. I'd be interested to hear, leaving aside how you measured it, what you think is an example that you understand as being best in class in terms of delivering social value.

Well, I've seen that I've got experience of I bought Capital and Centric to Stoke On Trent. They've never worked outside the North West before. One of the reasons we worked with them is that I went and visited a number of their projects. I liked their approach and they were interested in some of the things that I've got issues with in Stoke on Trent homelessness in particular, but they deliver a scheme called Regeneration Brainery. They could have bought it as they wanted to and delivered it exactly how they deliver it elsewhere, but they adapted it to reflect the needs within the city around that and in a way bespoke and I see that they do that elsewhere. And I know they've won awards for it over the last few months, so for me, I thought that was, that was really good because you equally have to be pragmatic, don't you, as a local authority to not expect somebody to reinvent the wheel in effect. So I, I think that was a particularly good project that I saw delivered. I've seen them do similar schemes around homelessness in Manchester that I've been to visit and Liverpool as well.

So I think it demonstrates that you can be bespoke at scale.

On a large scale within Kier, we have a charity, the Kier Foundation. And within the past three years we've partnered with an umbrella charity called End Youth Homelessness, which actually have a lot of local homeless charities that they work closely with. And as part of that partnership, what I think was really great about it is that it was really quite all encompassing. So as well as fundraising generally, where we kind of raised over £400, 000 for them, there was also, there was building lives and building careers. So we looked at actually supporting those young people in terms of training, in terms of work placements, getting them into jobs. And then also I offered quite a lot of pro bono support for some of their centres and residential so that they could be actually doing renovations on the properties as well. So it was quite a holistic offering for that particular charity which was you could see really see the actual impact on the individual young people. We had drives such as like buying Christmas presents and all of those great things as well.

But then it can go down to the smallest level and often these are stories where you know our site teams will be just, just do something because they think it's the right thing. Whether that's just kind of doing some small renovation in the local school or whatever that they've, they've done just because they thought that would be nice.

I'm David, I work for Keir Transportation, so I deliver highways projects in the main. And the best example I've seen of social value is where local authorities really leverage the contractor or the provider across all the directorates. The best example I've been involved in is where we were given access and we collaborated across the children's services and adult teams as well. We had direct access to that big cohort of people. We could deliver skills projects and make significant differences to those individuals who working in those communities that you describe. So my plea really is for when you go back into your local authorities, is to make your heads of your exec directors and their teams work together to collaborate to actually have some exposure to the providers that you've no doubt all got within your local authorities.

And that was my contribution. I'm not clever enough, I don't understand quite enough about how it fits together, but I would like to think that that sort of leadership around understanding the challenge that I had, my frustration, but also my contacts could be leveraged against the £500 million worth of investment that Stoke on Trent is bringing in.

Thank you. Thank you to the panel. My name is Councillor Shantanu Rajawat, I'm the leader of the London Borough of Hounslow. I get the tension that you've got between a standardised set of metrics to measure versus what you want to deliver within your individual communities. And I just wonder, with the creation of the Office of the Local Government that's just come into force, whether there's a role for us to be lobbying them to put some standardised matrix in place so that you can actually measure it whilst also acknowledging that there are local contexts.

I think in terms of the measurement piece as well, I think what, unfortunately what seems to be happening at the moment is the word value in social value should be there because in reality, it should be a kind of cost benefit analysis of what our projects are doing. So in terms of this is how much we're spending. What is the benefit that we're getting from that? And that's why you would monetise it. And in reality, that probably doesn't actually sit at our level. It probably sits before you even start planning the project. So I think that if that were to be something that was more centralised, it probably actually come almost before our involvement. And I would welcome that. That would be absolutely fine and we just need to then actually deliver on what could be possible.

I think there is a place for it, but unless it's standardised, we can't possibly be able to compare.

Thank you. Look, I think we could obviously go on talking for a while, and we can go on talking for a while, because we have to draw the panel discussion to a close. So thank you all very much for coming, and yeah, enjoy the rest of your conference. Thank you. Thank you. That wraps up the first season of the Keir Beyond the Build podcast. Thanks very much for listening. We'll be back soon with a new season.

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