Greg Wasserman is a podcast industry connector, LinkedIn creator and host of Podcast Network Insights, whose life changed after a mental health crisis led him into rehab.

In this episode of Life by Misadventure, Greg talks about losing his job during the pandemic, struggling with depression and suicidal thoughts, learning the language of emotions, and discovering why asking for help is a strength rather than a burden.

Greg’s story is about recovery, vulnerability, male mental health, better communication, and the quiet power of saying the thing that someone else might need to hear.

About the Show

Life by Misadventure is hosted by David Brown and features honest, engaging conversations with interesting people about life, loss, resilience, ideas, and the experiences that shape us.

Connect with David on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/4dmbrown/

Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/life-by-misadventure/id1782077287

Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6Z1MszCU19QglChFb11Pw2?si=98ab1a34db074b3d

She calls me and she's like, hey, something's off. And I literally bawled and had to come clean and go. And like, how suicidal I was, depressed I was. Life was too heavy. I can't deal with this.

How am I supposed to have a relationship with you with where I'm at? And that was the first time I conveyed the internal fears that. That I didn't know.

Well, hello. Welcome to Life by Misadventure. I'm your host, David, and today I've got a conversation with a, I would say, LinkedIn influencer.

Don't know if you would. Dunno if you would call yourself that, but that's certainly how we met and I've. I've seen you.

I think that's how we met in the very beginning, was through LinkedIn. And then I think we had a conversation about some other stuff in the past. And then I don't even know how long ago that was.

Feels like it's been a while. And then, you know, I saw your posts and everything for quite a while.

And then I saw you posted not too long ago about mental health and I thought, oh, that's quite interesting.

And, you know, being that this show is Life by Misadventure and that we've all had, you know, tons of misadventures along the way, I thought it might be really interesting to kind of hear your story and what happened to you and how you've recovered and moved on from that and how that's impacted your life. So everybody, meet Greg. Greg Wasserman. Greg, meet everybody.

What's up, everyone? David, thanks for having me. And you're right, it is how we connected. It was over LinkedIn, I believe. Life is about time, relationships.

You have no clue where one conversation will take you. I would be shocked if I forgot, but it's probably true.

I probably reached out because you're in the podcast space and I usually tend to just blindly reach out to anyone in the podcast space looking to connect because that's what I love about the community. I have no clue where it's going to take us. Yeah, that's.

Yeah. And we'll get to your story in a minute. What I can see what's going to happen.

We're going to end up talking about podcasting for about 45 minutes and we'll do your story for 15. But. But the thing I like about it is it's super, super friendly. Like, even still, you know, it's.

It's a very small community and, you know, if you ever need help from anyone I've never had another podcaster not give me help, or if I had, or if I saw somebody that did something really cool, I could reach out to them and say, hey, can. Can I just ask you a question?

And everybody's been super nice, super friendly, super helpful, and that's one of the things that I. I really enjoy about podcasting, actually, aside from getting to talk to amazing people that I would never, you know, meet or get to talk to you otherwise. It's just that it's been such a nice kind of group of people to deal with.

We won't.

I mean, anyone listening, we're not going to ramble about podcasting, but podcasting does have a huge part to the story that we will talk about that has to do with the. The title of your podcast, Right?

So what you just laid out in terms of how helpful everyone is is that is part of my recovery story, which has been really interesting and thinking about, wow. Finding a community that literally is there to help you, and you just have to ask for it.

And it's okay to ask for it because everyone wants to help, because, let's be honest, no one knows everything, and everything's changing constantly. We were just chatting before we jumped in here and talked about video in the podcast space, and it's like, who knows what that is? So, yeah, it is.

This isn't going to be a podcast about podcasting. This is going to be one about the misadventures. But podcasting is a big part of that. 22 Entered rehab. We'll start there. That's the. The teaser, right?

But we all know it starts before there. And whenever I say rehab, everyone's like, oh, Craig was into substances. It's like, no, actually, it.

It actually had to do with mental health and the nice joys of podcast or not podcast. It's going to be on the brain of the pandemic was the way I looked at it, the world was hurting.

And you could either be one of the group that fought, and they're like, no, no mass, no vax, whatever, or you have the other side, which was like, no, you have to do this. And then there was, I think, in my case, like, a middle. It's like, forget the noise. The world's hurting.

I lost my job, like, week one because they were shut down. There was nothing to do. I'm like, what can I do? Well, let's start focusing on myself.

What was your life like before the pandemic and before we get to that point? So what was pre pandemic? Before all this, the angst, if I can call it that, started. So what did your life look like before?

Drive an hour. So everyone. I live in Los Angeles. Traffic is terrible. So drive an hour plus to commute to an office and an hour back to my place.

Pretty standard in the sense. Like work all day. I was working for a startup in partnerships and sales and from there, yeah, it was just a normal hike, Concerts.

I don't know, I guess like a normal late 30s kind of living situation, if we look at that Southern California life. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Okay. And you were content? You. Were you happy?

Were you content? No, like, okay, no, I. So my background's in media sales.

Okay.

And if anyone's done sales or media sales, I think media sales is different. And the way I look at it is different, is if anyone here knows. Dazing confused.

Matthew McConaughey's character, where he loves to talk about, in fact, is quoted as, you know, he makes fun of. He's in college and he's hitting on the high school girls. He's like, hey, what I love about him is. And I get older and they stay the same age.

Dirty, dirty quote in that regards. But that's how I felt my life was in the sense in the ad world. I kept getting older.

And the way the ad world works is you're usually dealing with someone who's entry level, 22 to 27 years old, who's recent, out of grad, out of college, probably a history major, liberal arts. They weren't there for marketing, they weren't there for finance.

And you're now trying to get that buyer because that's what they are, whether they're on the agency side or the brand side, to buy the media that you're trying to sell and be part of their proposal for their client or their own brand. And as you get older, you're like, okay, I've got nothing to talk about with this. This younger crew.

As technology evolves, they're looking at it as TikTok. And I'm like, no, this is what I'm trying to sell. So it just got frustrating.

You're like, no matter how hard you keep working, you're getting older and you're still talking to a 22 to 27 year old. And. And it was burning me out significantly on top of everything else that we'll kind of talk about.

Okay, okay. So, yeah, I understand that. I'm 57 now, so everybody I talk to is younger than me. So, yeah, my whole life is like that.

Which, I mean, for Anyone listening? Ageism is, it is a, is a difficult thing. I mean, everyone that's listening to this, I don't look 43.

Most people are shocked that I'm 43 and so quickly get the oh, you don't know what you're talking about type deal. And it's like, you're probably right. I usually don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm older than you look, so at least give me some credit.

And that goes towards kind of the, the recovery story as well.

So you're working a sort of thankless media job, media sales, which, yeah, is like, I, I can empathize. I used to sell computer hardware back in the day and it was a very similar type thing.

Right.

It's like you're making 80, 100 calls a day, you know, just getting the phone hung up on you, whatever. It's like proper, you know, hardcore cold calling sales job. Yours may not have been exactly, but it's pretty similar, I imagine.

And it's pretty thankless as well. And then the pandemic comes along and then what happens there? So I'll let you get back into it now. Sorry, I just wanted to get a bit about.

Yeah, the context is I was unhappy. If we look at it, parents were always like, Greg, we just want you happy. And like, what is happiness? Right. Didn't understand what that is.

So you keep striving for something that will make you happy, but you realize you, you're not. And so Covid hit and the world shut down. I'm like, all right, what else am I supposed to do?

So instead of doing the, the baking the sourdough bread and whatever pandemic niche that was going on or the trend of the week was going on, I'm like, great, I'll focus on my mental health. Let's focus on reading the self help books. Let's focus on myself.

Now if you're trying to self diagnose or trying to figure out, you know, what's wrong without actually having the tools, you can, you can help yourself along, but at some point you're going to need help. And, and I didn't know that.

So long story short, because we want to focus on the core pieces here, I ended up getting in a fight with my mother and that kind of put a strain on our relationship, but also made me feel something was off. Fast forward. My mom, my brother has a baby. My mom comes out here and I was in this weird feeling of not knowing what I was feeling.

Why am I feeling it was Ultimately a fight or flight. And I. I'm using these elusive. I didn't know what I'm feeling because that was it. Like I didn't have the vocabulary to understand feelings.

And we'll talk about that. But ultimately I ended up shutting down and instead of meeting my niece, I went on a hike. It was the only thing I knew. Fitness is a big thing.

It's a good release, the endorphins. So I'm hiking. My brother calls me. He's like, hey, you coming to meet your niece? And I'm like, no, I'm hiking right now.

I was with a girl at the time and she could feel something was off. And the next day we were. She. We should have hung out. I chose to work out instead. And she calls me and she's like, hey, something's off.

And I literally bawled and had to come clean and go and like, how suicidal. I was, depressed. I was. Life was too heavy. I can't deal with this. How am I supposed to have a relationship with you with where I'm at?

And that was the first time I conveyed the internal fears that, that I didn't know. And so because of where she had been on her journey, she was able to help me get help. Checked into a php, so private hospitalization program.

So it's ultimately, you're not residential, you're not living there. I would go every day from nine to four, come home.

And since I said the recovery and the rehab was not substance related, it wasn't like I was going to come home and self medicate. Was more of a matter of coming home and you're exhausted from eight hours of intensive classes to help you from a mental standpoint.

I'll kind of pause there.

It's interesting that you talked about not having the vocabulary because I think that that's something that's a particularly male trait, I think. And I don't know if you agree, but we kind of as men, we were never raised and we were never taught kind of an emotional vocabulary.

Certainly in my generation, I think the younger generations, like my son is much, much better. I mean, he's 19, right? And he's much more comfortable talking about his emotions and that sort of thing.

But in my generation, like men didn't have emotion. And so we just weren't equipped, you know, with the vocabulary. Even.

Even in those instances where we had an opportunity maybe to talk with each other or we were in a. God, I'm going to say that, I'm going to say this. If we were in a Safe space, you know, where we could. Because men do talk about that kind of thing.

You know, it's not always jokes and football and, you know, beer and women.

I mean, we do have actually really deep conversations with each other when we feel safe with somebody and we feel like we can be a little bit vulnerable. But. But I agree with you. It's like we don't even know how. Sometimes we don't even know how. We don't have the words to describe how we feel.

And that's super frustrating. And so that, that was just something that jumped out to me.

I mean, it's a, it's a whole part of my story in the sense that, I mean, if we look at my childhood, like I had great parents. I mean, when I compare to others, it was. I didn't have, if we go down the clinical, I didn't have big traumatic experiences. Right.

Like there, there, there were more little T's is what I always refer to, or what I was taught in my program, you know, loving parents.

What did your parents do?

Mother was a special ed teacher. So literally caring. That's all she knew how to do. Be a mother and support kids. Was a, an accountant and CPA controller.

But then you look at the trauma, like the generational trauma and how each one of them was brought up. You know, my father's father, so my grand paternal grandfather passed away when he was 8.

And what they were forced to do as a family, my mother's side, they're Holocaust survivors. So my mom was born in POW camp in Germany after the war.

And so you think about the big traumas that they're going through, then they get trickled down into the, the generations thereafter. But from my standpoint, you know, the parents were, were there, were loving, and it was, it was great in that regards.

But if we look at the emotional side of it, I always joked, especially when I went into program, it's like I knew the three emotions that I saw my dad convey. Angry, happy, sad. Right. Your standard ones. But then you realize, at least I learned in program, anger is a secondary emotion.

Like, what is the underlying emotion behind it? Well, if you don't even understand the vocabulary to understand that alone, you're like, I don't know, I'm angry.

It's like, well, no, but why are you angry? I'm angry. It's like, okay, let's, let's, let's uncover that. It's like, are you frustrated? Yeah, exactly. Right.

That's mostly where mine comes from, is I feel frustrated and then I Get angry because I'm frustrated or whatever.

Yeah, right. So the ability to understand what was going on internally wasn't there and to understand the lens.

So also for everyone listening, another key piece that I'd like to point out, at least from my story, and I know it's not this, it's the same for others because I'm going to tell the story from someone else.

Brene Brown was a big person during my recovery and, and being vulnerable or vulnerability, hangover, when you're not used to being vulnerable like I am everyone's friend. But do you know everything about me? Probably not, because I'm not sharing that, because I wouldn't know what to share.

And so Bernay told a story that sticks with me. When she was a kid and her, she was sick, her parents would do everything they could to take care of her.

And so that's what you would expect, like loving parents. But when they were sick, as we can all relate to this story, what did they do? I'm running a household, I got a job, I got a commitments.

I will, I will take some emergency, I'll take some vitamin C. And I got to continue to do what I got to do.

And the lens that Bernay said that she put on, hopefully I'm quoting her correctly here, was like that sicknesses, that being sick is a weakness, that if you are sick, that's weak because look at how strong my parents are being. But they're not doing the things that they're doing for me.

And I use that story because it's the lens we put on our lives and we don't realize the actions that may be coming from a place of love are being interpreted by the other party as whatever it may be. And that is ultimately the little T's that added up.

So for me, it was always worried parents, which you would think like great parents should be worried. And you wouldn't know what it's like to be a parent until you are and what they're going through.

And I'm not a parent for anyone listening and I don't plan to be. So maybe I'll never have that perspective.

But all those little moments of fear, of worry, there is a way to convey that worry and that fear without passing that onto your child or passing it on to someone else. As I always say, like, your worry is not my worry. So if you have a worry, you don't have to convey that worry to me.

You can just figure out how to manage that yourself. But not everyone knows how to manage their own worries. Or their own fears.

And we have this feeling to convey that to, to share that which in my case created all these moments of, you're not good enough, you don't know anything. And from that then created this identity of I'm a burden, I'm worthless, what's the point of being around?

And all those other components that reality were coming from my parents and family out of love, like, be safe. That is a parent or a person loving you and saying, hey, be safe.

As opposed to my brain interpreting it as you're just trying to take the fun out of everything. You are so worried about what could go wrong as opposed to the enjoyment of what it could be.

Or I'd say something and it'd be, well, have you thought of this? And all of a sudden we have a fix it mentality. And I truly believe we have a me too and a fix it mentality.

At least in the States, I can imagine elsewhere, but at least in the States, and especially among men, because men, we are fixers. So from a male standpoint, you tell me a problem, I'm like, great, how do I fix this?

And so as soon as you tell someone, hey, I'm having an issue, they're like, oh, have you done this? Have you done this? Done this? But no one's stopping. And this is what we have to do as better as a society is stop and go, hold on.

Are you telling me this issue because you just need a vent? Are you telling me this issue because you want me to respond? And you're telling me this issue because I'm, as you said, David, a safe space.

And it's just like, great. And we need to do a better job on doing that. So all that to say I.

It's interesting that you talked about kind of that, the idea of how do you want me to react? Because it's something that we learned probably too late when raising my son, which is. And I can't remember.

I think somebody did it for me at work and I gave them something and I said, hey, will you read this for me? And they said, well, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to proofread it or do you just want me to read it and tell you it's good?

And I was like, wow, okay. Because those are Two very different activities and they're two very different responses.

And if somebody just wants you to read something and go, hey, yeah, that's great, I really like that. And that's all they want to hear. And you give them, hey, you should really move that paragraph over there.

And that's you, that sentence isn't correct and you need, your punctuation's wrong there and blah, blah, blah. That can be crushing. And particularly for a kid who's, you know, trying to do well in school.

They're trying to write an essay or they're trying to do their homework and they. All they want you to do is look at it and go, wow, you did a great job answering that question.

And so I felt a little bit of that and what you were saying a minute ago, right? Like sometimes my wife starts telling me something and I'm like, okay, what do you want me to do with this?

Do you want me to just listen or do you want me to, to fix it and give you a solution? And she'll go, I just want you to listen. But I've learned to ask. So now sometimes when I'm not sure, I've started to do that.

And again, this is a whole level of like, I guess emotional awareness that I was never raised with. Do you know what I mean?

Like, that just didn't enter into my world at any point until probably the last, I mean, that's the last maybe seven or eight years that I've started to do that. But now I know when I can feel that she's got something, you know, okay, fine, day to day stuff, like, whatever.

But when I feel that there's a big issue coming, I have now learned to kind of go, so what do you want me to do with this? Do you, you know, do you want some help or do you just want me to listen? And 80% of the time she's like, I just want you to listen.

I just want somebody to talk to. I just want to talk through it. And I'm okay, that's cool. And maybe, and I'm curious to know what you think about this.

The other side of it is that I have to try and remember for myself is that if you come to me with a worry or a problem or something, I don't need to own that now, right? Like sometimes again, you just want to talk to somebody and you just want to tell somebody that you're worried about something or whatever.

And I'm like, it's, I don't need to own that. It's not now My responsibility because you told me about it and I just need to just let you do your thing.

And if you're going to tell me, you tell me. And then again it's like, okay, what do you want me to do with that?

But some people, I think, and, and, and again, historically, maybe that was the way.

But you know, some people, if you tell them something, they immediately take it on as their problem and then they start to own it and stress over it for you. And I'm just like, bro, you don't need to do that. Like, it's my issue. I just wanted to talk through it.

And I think there's, there's the two sides of the coin that I think we could do better at. And one is, hey, David, I'm just going to tell you something. I just need you to listen.

And so it's the setup by the person that's sharing and letting the person know ahead of time. Here you go. And then the flip side, if I fail to do that, it's you going, hey Greg, thanks for sharing. What do you want me to do with that?

And so it's then you asking the question.

So if we can get better on both sides, given either the setup and, or the, the question and response to that, you'll find yes, it may create more time between the con or in the conversation, but it's going to make for a better conversation. And unfortunately I. Human beings, we're lazy. We're going to do the quickest thing, the rapid fire. How do I answer this?

But if I can take the extra 15 seconds and go, David, I'm just going to share something with you. I just need someone to talk to right now. Great. That took me what, five seconds to set that up. But how does that change the entire conversation now?

And if we think about that, and that's kind of the biggest walk away to actions that I've been working on four years later, that helps me really understand. We have the me too problem and we have the, the help it, fix it mentality.

Now the me too side of it is the other side is being, we share something and all of a sudden we want to me to, to relate. Not in the Harvey Weinstein me too movement style, but the me too of like good example.

You know, my father passed away, but he had Ms. And so that was part of my struggle as well for the last 20 years is being here in LA, my father's sick and in Chicago, my mother's health declining as well and feeling like I'm being a bad son. By living my life out here, even though that's what they want me to do, but not going back there.

And so we talked about Ms. And so the natural reaction would be like, oh, I know someone with Ms. Or like, I've got an. And so it becomes the, oh, we're bonding over this shared, like, I know what you're going through.

So we try to, to me too, to create that human connection. What ends up happening a lot of the time is it actually doesn't create the connection.

It's now, oh, I'm now turning towards you as opposed to getting the validation and the, the. The emotional connection on my side.

And so it flips the conversation I went from, I'm being vulnerable and something that is important to me, and now I'm like, oh, now we're. What is it trauma bonding? Are we just relating over something that's similar?

And so I think we could do a better job of on the flip side and saying, oh, I know someone, or I've been in that. Or I knew someone that had cancer, whatever it may be, and going like, oh, thanks for sharing that with me. Like, that must be tough.

And now it creates the, the vulnerable moment, the connection there. Now you could eventually go like, hey, thanks for sharing that with me. Me. You know, can I share something with you?

And then you can go ahead, like, I know, but at least you validate that person sharing that piece with you. So, yeah, those are two big things that I've kind of been working towards.

Yeah, I like that. And I totally did that to you. I did that to you, but not immediately. When we talked about your dad last time. I'm just thinking about our.

Because we did have a.

Obviously we had a, an intro conversation before we, before we came on today, and, and my mom has Ms. And, And I did mention that to you, but I don't think it was right away. I think I did actually listen to you and, and let you know and absorb the conversation first. So hopefully that wasn't too bad.

But, yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think that. I think that tends to happen with people that you don't know, like you said, because you're trying to get a.

You're trying to get a common point of bonding with somebody that maybe you don't know that well. And. Yeah, that's interesting. Do you think that. Okay, let me, Let me say this differently.

In the UK post Covid, there has absolutely been a change in, in people talking more honestly about mental health, particularly men. But I mean, we're men. So we'll talk about the men's issue. I think women have always been a little bit better at it than men, but particularly in men.

And it was like, pre covered. Every business call started off in the standard, hey, how you doing? How's everything going? Oh, yeah, I'm fine. Everything's great. Da, da, da.

You know, had a night. Yeah. What'd you do on the weekend? Went to see some football, blah, blah, blah. And.

But post Covid, I actually had a few phone calls where I'd be on a call, there'd be another guy on there, and I'd be like, oh, hey, how are things going? And they would say, yeah, it's been pretty rough lately. And that was a completely different. Right. Like, response. And before COVID you would have.

And particularly in English culture, which is even more, you know, kind of reserved than American culture, that just would never happen.

But it was amazing because, particularly with some of my friends and stuff, it was really nice for them to be able to go, yeah, I'm not actually really doing that well this week. And I'd be like, oh, man, I'm really sorry to hear that. What's going on? And it, you know, it.

It changed how we were able to talk about these things and. And even doing some of the things that you're talking about, about being able to ask that question, like, how do you want me to react?

Or, you know, even being able to say to someone, hey, I just want to talk to somebody about this. Do you mind if I just, you know, ran at you for a minute?

And we could never say that before, and it's just there was, like, some weird, total societal shift change that happened in that year and a half while we were all, like, locked in the house. Did that happen in America as well? Or is. Was that something that was just a British thing?

No, 100%, I think. I mean, we're recording this in our homes over. Over the Internet right now. Right. Like, that's basically the life that we all turn to living.

And so the. If you think about it, those that weren't used to working from home did not have a home set up. So now I'm introducing you to my living situation.

I mean, I'm in a spare bedroom here, right. You get to see. I had to make a bed so that it looked presentable. Right. But, like, I'm introducing. But you've got dogs that ran through.

You had cats, you had kids, you had. You had partners, you had whoever was in the house that was walking in the background and. And you're like, that's just. Or.

Or someone knocked in the door and you're like, hey, I'm not used to being home. I gotta. Sorry, I gotta put this call exactly right.

So I think Covid and the pandemic really created that environment where you know what this is life. Like, this is. This is what I'm going through right now. And you had that chance to be vulnerable and go, you know what? How can I go?

This is so unperform professional. It's like what defined the profession changed.

Which is probably why if we add another note to why we have forced back to work is changing because an environment. But I think the work from home environment here has created that vulnerability where I was, you know, how's your day been?

Or what's your big win over the week? And I'm. I'm exhausted, David. And I'll tell people and like, this is. I look like I'm. I rolled out of bed today.

No, I did my hair, but like normally I'm like, I look like I wrote out of bed, but I didn't. I'm just like, I'm tired today. And that is just a tired look. Right. And so you're able to say those things. So, yeah, it was definitely.

It was a good thing. All that. All those little pieces that culminated the fight with my mom. The. The unknowing of what this emotional inside me was going on. The.

The work I was doing and covet the fact that you had this world that was ultimately being really split apart more than we are even today, what's going on with me. And so then to have this post Covid world where it's like, oh, I am. I feel so much better. I can ask for help. So we go back to the.

The joke of the earlier conversation about podcasting. Like, one of the main things I learned after program is it's okay to ask for help. And that was. Especially as a man, that was a hard thing.

But also with my background like that I was raised not in this way, but the lens I put on is asking for help. It feels like you're a burden to someone, but I will be the first person to ask you for whatever you need, give you the shirt off my back.

And to ask for that back felt wrong. And so part of the program was realizing, hold on, Greg, think about the joy you get by doing that for someone else.

You're actually not allowing them to receive the same joy that you get. You're being selfish. And if you actually think about it and you're like, oh, my God, I never thought about that way.

It's like, I get so much joy by being able to help David or anyone. I mean, I say life is about time and relationships. I want to be of service. I have a network. How do I use my network to help someone?

And so if someone's like, well, how could they use their network to help you? I'm like, well, I'm not going to ask them for that. That feels wrong. But coming out of program, you realize it's okay to ask.

Like, asking for help is actually a strength. That's a self awareness. That is self respect. That is all these things that you never realized. So podcasting, we go there. I have to ask for help.

Like, that is literally the industry we work in is cross promos or, hey, what's. What are you doing? So I can learn from it. Because the joy of it all is your voice. My voice.

Even if we were both running a similar show, the conversations you're going to have the style of host. Even if we had the same guest, the style is still going to be different.

So those that would find your style are going to be gravitating to your show versus those that may enjoy my style may gravitate, gravitate towards me, even if we have the same guest. So it's so okay to ask for help, to provide that service to everyone in this industry.

And so this industry's really been key to my recovery and my continued recovery because it's taught me, ask for help, ask for mentorship, ask for what you need. Worst person can say is no. And if you're used to sales, you're used to know quite a bit. Bit.

So, hey, if I ask for what I need and someone says no, I'm like, you know what?

Great.

Their capacity, they can provide me that as opposed to asking for a sale. And I'm saying no. You're like, why? How do I overcome this objection now? Right. So, yeah, I love that.

I think that's a. That's a great summary. And I agree with all of that. And I was, you know, my.

My wife's love language is acts of service, and she struggles with that quite a lot. Often, you know, she will never, ever ask for help.

And one of the things that feels like it relates to this and, and one of the things that we've worked out in our relationship that we both agreed on from day one, and I didn't realize that it's the same issue until later, but we both agreed that. And a lot of people will Say this in a marriage, they'll be like, oh, it's 50. Fifty in a relationship. No, it's 100. A hundred, right?

I, I give everything to make sure that she's happy, she's content, she's got what she needs, that she's emotionally taken care of and physically taken care of and all the other stuff, right?

And I, I make sure that she's sorted, but she makes sure that I'm sorted so I don't have to worry about myself being sorted because I know she's going to help me and she's going to sort me out. And she doesn't have to worry about herself being sorted out because she knows I'm going to do it.

And when you get with someone that you trust and you can do that, that's amazing.

And that's, you know, we, we've talked to loads and loads of friends who were struggling in their marriages and stuff before, and some we've been able to help and some we haven't.

But, you know, it's that idea that, you know, you do stuff for other people because you want to do it and that you like to do it, and that gives you joy and you do need to be able to share that with some to let somebody else do that. And that was something that it took me a long time to learn for myself. And I don't know where in particular I learned it, But I absolutely 100 agree.

So sometimes I have to let other people do stuff, even though I don't want to. Like, But I'm like, okay, they're trying to do something nice for me, and I get that.

So I'm just going to let them do the nice thing, even though it just makes me go, but, but then they're happy that they got to do it. And I'm like, okay, I have to. But that was a journey for me is, is having to learn to accept that.

And I think that is a key piece because part of the thing that I've been continuing, and my partner and I, current partner and I were just talking about this the other day, is her love language is gift giving. And that's a hard thing for me to receive because that becomes a financial piece in most cases.

You're like, okay, your means are different than mine means. So you feel like, oh, I'm receiving this gift. I have to give you gifts.

But if my love language is acts of service and I can give you that, it's like understanding the discomfort I feel is okay, because that provides the love that you need And I'm receiving that. And you just come to realize, you know, discomfort is another key piece that we have to work through.

If I look back at where I was and where I am now, it's a lot of the discomfort of your parents is passed on to you as a child. You know, I want to help my child. I want to make them safe. I want to make sure that nothing wrong happens to them.

Well, part of that is your discomfort of your child's discomfort, and you want to solve it and fix it, as opposed to, like, what have they actually learned by sitting in the discomfort together? And like, oh, I failed the test. It's like, well, we got to figure out how we can help you. What do I do? I need to get you a tutor. Like, what is it?

It's like, you know, sometimes it's like, that sucks. How does it feel right now to fail the test? And, like, being able to sit together and go like, this is.

This is a crappy feeling right now, as opposed to, how do we make sure that you don't have this feeling again? It's like, no, let's figure that piece out after we've. We've solved this current failing, and I think we. We do that. Not enough.

I can speak for myself, but going through the last four years post my rehab program, and, like, that's a big piece.

There's another. Just one topic I wanted to circle back on, and then we'll move forward or we'll see where it goes. But we'll. We'll. We'll go from. From the rehab.

But you were talking about the podcast and how guests come on different shows and talk about different things and that sort of thing.

And I don't know about you, but one of the hardest lessons I had to learn when I started my show on AI so I've got the show on AI I've been doing and, you know, for a few years now. And. And I was talking to one of my friends, and I said, oh, you know, I'm really. So, you know, I've got to get this guest on.

I really want to have good guests so that, you know, that people will, you know, kind of be entertained and they'll keep listening.

And.

And he went, dave, he goes, we listen because we listen to you. We don't listen because of the guests. It's you that we're listening to because you're the constant on the show. And.

And that thought had never occurred to me, right? Like, I didn't have the, like, the self confidence, you know, or I would have said arrogance at the time. I would say self confidence now. Right.

To even think that anybody would be interested in listening to me at all. I still kind of feel that way. I don't think anybody really listens to me. But.

But it was, it was like a smack in the face almost as they were like, you have people on and we're interested to hear how you talk to them and the stuff that you say to them and, and that. But it's like, it's your show. We listen to you and, you know, and completely threw me for a loop for a few weeks.

And I like really had to sit with that for quite a long time. And, and then, you know, I was able to kind of, you know, come to terms with that and then. And then kind of move on.

But that's exactly what you were saying. Like, we can have the same guest, right? We. We could both have David Goggins on, right? Or anyone.

Right.

And we're going to have totally different conversations with him. And our audiences are totally different because people like you and they like me, and that's why they listen to us, you know, And I don't know.

Anyway, that was just a, that was a personal kind of thing for me that it was like, wow, okay, people are listening to me. They're not, you know, and, and I thought that was just. It seemed relevant to what you were talking about with the whole common guest thing.

I mean, it's. It is because if we remember a people pleasing or try to be friends with everyone, whatever it may be, the reminder is what. Not everyone's. You drink.

We're not everyone's cup of tea.

Exactly.

David literally just took a sip as I was about to say that. I'm like, all right, perfect timing.

Do you want to do that again?

It's not everyone's cup of tea. Sponsored by Starbucks. There you go.

Coffee. It's coffee. Excellent.

But yeah, you're. We're not. So it's okay. And, and I think if we remember that, that's a key piece too. It's like, why is this person such a pain in my butt?

It's like, okay, and can I look internally and go, is there a projection? Is there something internally that I'm feeling here?

And that's why this person is, is annoying me or pain to me, like, so it creates these internal dialogues that we could be having with ourselves as opposed to going like, no, this person's just whoever this person is. And I think that's been another key piece in the last four years.

To start looking deeper internally and questioning, why does a person rub me the wrong way? Why does this happen? What do I need to do to change? Move into whatever discomfort I may be feeling.

To your point of, like, from a male standpoint, we don't talk about that a lot. So I think in the last six years it's been moving forward.

I definitely look at here in the States how mental health and, and that entire business has evolved, which is probably a good thing.

So you go to rehab and you learn some coping skills, I guess, and some tools to help you work through some of the issues. And then, then what happens? How do you start to come out of that? And then what does. What does post rehab Greg look like? What's he like?

So going into rehab, I was unemployed, had lost my job at that time. So that was another struggle. It's like, okay, I'm trying to figure out a relationship without a job and everything else that was going on.

The culmination of, of close to 40 years of life in that regards, get out. I have a better identity of who I am, feeling of who I am, understanding of where these came from, as you said, coping skills.

But then it's like, all right, well, I still need a job, so I can still do the same motion of go on LinkedIn. Let's find people that I can connect with, submit resumes.

And I reached out to a former co worker, told that story to him. So just got out of rehab. So I'm telling people like, hey, I was in rehab.

And like, anyone that's listening, I mean, you don't know me, but I was the person when you told, yeah, I was in rehab. Like how, Greg, you seem to be the glass half full, happy, go lucky, like nothing's wrong. Sunshine, rainbows. And I'm like, yeah.

And my answer always now, it's always been, you know, you look at some of the greatest names that we'd known and how they seemed like they had the greatest life success and they're no longer with us for. For sad reasons. So what someone shows on the outside doesn't mean that that's what you see and they're conveying on the inside.

Hello, Robin Williams.

And that was it. You know, my answer is Always Anthony Bourdain, Robin Williams. Yeah, and, and, and so, yeah, that. That is the bigger shock.

And so after program, I'm like, all right, I need to. I need help. And so my buddy connected me with Shout out to Rob Durant, who I now meet with weekly. And it's become a friendship and a mutual.

He helps me, I help him, and we learn from each other. But it's now that way to share. Because here's another thing that most people, especially in corporate, you want to talk to someone, you're like, who?

I can't go to my boss and go to my boss, like, look, I want to ask you this question, but you're going to judge me for these questions right now. And I want to ask for help, but I'm supposed to be capable of doing this, or maybe I think I'm supposed to be capable of doing this.

So it feels weird. So go and find a mentor. Going to find someone in not only the field that you work in, but also in a different field, paying for a coach.

Having a coach is going to be key. It's a king investment, but it's going to help you because a therapist will be one person, but a coach is coming at it from a business standpoint.

So I can go to him, go like, hey, this is how I'm feeling right now at work. He's like, are those facts? Are those truths?

So it's kind of therapy in that regards, but it's also, you're getting a perspective of, of someone who's also understands corporate and understands leadership and understands business to help you go and like, oh, okay, well, then here's the questions you can ask, or here's the actions you shan be. Or that's some natural feelings, but that's all just in your head, right? So asking for that help has been key.

And, and once I started doing that, the world kind of just opened up and, and changed. Now, just like anything in therapy, you're like, what am I talking about this week?

Like, sometimes you're like, I don't know what I need to be talking about. And so a good, good therapist as well as a good coach will kind of a good mentor will kind of out of you.

But it goes back to our earlier conversation of asking for help and, and not. And knowing what you know and knowing.

That you don't know everything and being okay with that.

Yes, that's the hard part, I think.

Yeah, it's interesting. And, and I think that maybe I. Again, I don't know why that is.

I think There used to be more places where, I don't know, I get the feel like, do you know what I mean? Like, there used to be more like Freemasons or whatever, like where men would gather together and then they had an opportunity to chat.

Do you know what I mean? And sometimes, you know, I don't know if you know anything about Masonry, but when you go to a meeting, it's like, you know, the.

The two topics are banned, which is you can't talk about religion and you can't talk about politics, which is where that rule came from, I think originally was. That's a Masonic rule. And so, you know, there's a lot of chat generally about, you know, sports and kind of work and that sort of thing.

But a lot of times there are those kind of deeper conversations and there are people there, and there's always someone there that's older than you, who's wiser than you, that you can always go to. And I don't think many. There aren't many of those kind of groups left anymore. And I think that used to be.

And it could be it maybe in England, it was the pub, I think, for sure that was where, you know, men generally would go to pubs, and. And traditionally, women didn't go to the pub. It was very much a male sort of environment.

So I think, you know, men would go after work, they'd have a couple of beers, they'd relax a little bit, and then maybe, you know, they would have chats with other men about stuff and maybe open up. But in the modern world, we've lost all that, and I think it's really difficult. And I think that, you know, the suggestion of.

Of having a coach or a mentor or someone that you can talk to is a. Is a fantastic idea. And, you know, even if it's not a formal thing, you know, and.

And, you know, just find that one person maybe that, you know, that you can talk to. And I tell people all the time, I'm like, look, if you just. If you really need to talk to somebody, mate, just reach out.

Like, I'm happy to sit and have a conversation with somebody, particularly if they feel like they're in duress or, you know, they're really, really starting to stress over something, or, you know, they're. They're getting wound up about it. It's like, look, just give me a call. Send me a mess. Send me a WhatsApp. Send me a message on freaking LinkedIn.

Like, I'm online 24 7. Like, unless I'm literally asleep, I Will see your message, you know, within a half an hour.

And, you know, somebody sent me a message and said, I really need to talk to you about something. I'm like, okay, I'm there. Let's do it.

And we don't have. I mean, that's a lot of that. Is feeling comfortable to have that. And as you joke, I mean, I joke about this all the time. The.

The actual joke is, husband goes golfing for three hours with his buddies, comes home, the wife's like, hey, how is your three buddies? And he's like, oh, there was good. It's like, are they dating anyone? I don't know. They doing this. I don't know.

And it's like, you just spent three hours with these people, like, what did you learn? It's like, whatever. Their bad game is sports, finances.

But, like, Rob's getting a divorce.

Yeah. Why?

I. I don't know. When? I don't know. Are they separated? I don't know. Like, I don't know. Yeah, exactly.

And it's. Part of it is. Is, as you said, it's a gender thing. You know, the. The. It's. It's not that we're not inherently curious. It's just.

It's been taboo to ask those questions. Like, oh, you know, I'm looking to buy a house. Who. What do I even do? And. And how do. Who do I go to? And go, like, now I'm talking financial stuff.

I'm talking financial stuff with my friends. Like, that feels weird. It's like, now they know how much I'm making or what I'm able to do.

And so it creates this entire dynamic that we feel this anxiety, this fear over as opposed to hold on. Imagine how much it would feel to actually have the help. And instead of the fear of, what do they know more of?

How can they help you so that you feel better and go like, okay, this is the moment today. As opposed to you're stuck in this for forever.

So how are you today, really? How are you?

I mean, from a value standpoint, fitness and adventure, two of my core values. So not being able to work out and get the endorphins and adrenaline and the fitness that I need, like, that's crushing.

So that is weighing on the mental as well as the sleep. So it's creates that cycle. So you're like, all right, what can I do? And you're like, I can Go for a walk.

But like, people, I'm sorry, that just doesn't do it for me. I've worked out, I've been active my whole life. Like, just walking, it's great.

I'll take my partners, I'll take her dog, and like, that will be the all factors of, like, looking at this little Yorkie and what she's doing. But like, but part of it is, is I. I've going 15 years in the media world and then ending up in the podcasting.

I mean, you joked at the beginning, like, LinkedIn influencer. I mean, I started just like I tell every podcaster, the best time to start your podcast is yesterday. The second best time to start today.

I started just posting on LinkedIn, what, eight years ago, consistently. And because of that, I've now built up a cadence and a way of doing things so that it feels like I'm a LinkedIn influencer.

But really, it's just, it's gotten comfortable. I've gotten past the discomfort of what do I share, what do I talk about?

And most of the time, I'm trying to help other people and using my platform to help other people. And so I think that has helped me landed a company with RSS.com where I don't have bosses for once.

I have leaders, I have a culture that feels really great. I'm in an industry that's very supportive and we're all trying to learn new things, hence the most of the content and most of what I do.

But recovery is those that went in my program, we know, like, you're always in recovery, and that's not a bad thing because it's easy for your mind to go back to what was natural. It's easy for you to. To forget most of the things that you're learning and coping.

I mean, these are the conversations I have with my partner all the time. It's like, oh, forgot I learned that. It's like, I gotta, I gotta keep using those skills.

And if we're always trying to scale up, most of us, I mean, you have an AI podcast, most of us are trying to skill up in AI.

How many of us are trying to skill up in communication, emotional intelligence, and all the other cues that are probably helpful as opposed to Just the.

I. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

And for me, that's been a big part of podcasting, is working on that side, you know, bringing out the interview, because I. I want to have a good show. I want to have great conversations with people, and I want to get better at interviewing. And, you know, it's.

I'm not a journalist, so I'm not here to, you know, a lot of the advice is, you know, ask short, pointed questions and, you know, be silent and, you know, have, you know, dead air chicken and all that stuff, which sometimes that works. But that's not what a podcast is like. I'm not doing a journalistic interview type thing. You know, it is a conversation that I try to have and.

But I'm always trying to be better, you know, and again, like you said, it's just. You've got. I've got to think about all that stuff and just keep practicing and practicing, and that's communication skills and everything.

And I think. I think sometimes my wife doesn't know what to think about it because I'm very different.

I mean, we've been married 22 years, and we've been together for 25. And so I think sometimes, you know, I've changed a lot in that time, and I think sometimes she just looks at me and like, who the hell are you?

This isn't the guy that I met 25 years ago. You know, but that's good. I think we all need to do that. We all need to. To move forward, and we all need to work on ourselves constantly in.

In whatever area that is.

And I think that's key, you know, the fact that you guys are still together. It could be the opposite. Going like, who's this David that I started dating 25 years ago? I don't know. This. This is our lives that's converged.

I don't like this version or who I am is different than who you are. And we're not going to make this happen, right?

And if we have that understanding, even though if we look at the syncrete of sanctity, of marriage going like, till death do us part, part of it is also just realizing, like, some things aren't always meant. They're. They're meant for the moment. They're meant to last its course.

And so when it's not serving you, you either figure out, how do we make this serve me? Or have the difficult conversation. This isn't. And part of that is knowing when to walk away from a job. No different than the job firing you.

Knowing when to walk away from a relationship and a partnership or a, A friendship and, and a lot of that is especially hard for me, particularly because, a, I want to be everyone's friend. I believe life is about times and relationships.

So whether we know, I mean, you and I, we went, I think, two years between our communication or a year, whatever it is.

Yeah, a couple of years. Yeah.

Yeah. You reached out and like, hey. And I'm like, great. Like, as long as I remembered you having a good conversation. And I'm like, I like this guy.

And our worlds just haven't been connected over that time. Great. Let's. Let's catch back up and let's see where this conversation goes.

And, and that's okay because we run our course and the cycle is, you know, some people are in your life for a moment. Some people are there to teach you a lesson. Some people are there forever.

If we can understand that better, that will also help us and just how we cope and handle with life,.

For sure. And it was one post with a bit of vulnerability in it that was the one that got me to respond as well that, you know, piqued my interest.

It wasn't just the normal, you know, kind of podcasting stuff that you put out. It was a bit of reflection from you. And I was, I really connected with that.

And that was the thing that made me want to get back in touch and to have another conversation and, and thank you for that. That was good. And thank you for coming on and having the conversation. We're at nearly an hour. Say that's good.

I didn't even notice that we passed the 45 minute mark and didn't even have time to say I'm conscious of your time. So that's been amazing. So, yeah, thank you for your time.

If I could put you on the spot maybe a little bit and say, if you had some parting words of wisdom for people out there, what might they be?

Well, let me. I'll answer that while building off of your last thread is say the thing, post the thing.

Because that's part of what I've learned when I look at some of the people who are vulnerable on social media, and in this case, I live on LinkedIn, but so it's less about Instagram and seeing the snap snapshots of anyone's life in that regard. But for me, I live on LinkedIn and seeing in a corporate platform.

If we think about where LinkedIn technically is, even if we look at where it's begun, where it's begun, where it's where it is now.

Seeing some people that were in my quote unquote field and network post something vulnerable and going, I didn't know how to use that information then, but years later it hit me and I remember reaching out to them going, hey, your post actually was a guiding light for me during my recovery because you said this. And those that responded going, like, thank you. That feels amazing to know that you were that. That. That one post help you.

So to answer your question, post the thing, say the thing, because. And that's what I love about podcasts.

And if we look at that thread, if you have just one person listens to your show and that one person was able to learn something, grow, or you saved their life or impacted their life, would you say that your show is worthless because you only had one listener? Or would you say, this was the most valuable hour I spent a week? Or in reality, three hours if we add an editing to save or help another person.

Right. And not get paid for it. So you have no clue, like I said, where life and time and relationships where that one conversation will take you.

So post it, say it. The other things I would look at is other advice. Ask for help. There's nothing wrong in asking for help. You're not a burden.

In reality, you're giving the value and joy to someone else to support you in the way that you're actually needing someone to support you. Be more curious, less judgmental. We have no clue where a person's going through in their life.

We just see the snippet of their moment of how they show up with us. So if they're short with us, is that because of what we did?

Or is that because they're having a terrible day or they just have to put down their dog and. And they're sad and we have no clue. So be more curious and less judgmental with humans and.

And in quicker to pause and go, hey, David, thanks for sharing that with me. What do you need me to do right now? Last thing I would say is stop asking how can I help you?

And instead, repeat, reverse that into how do I support you? Because help turns into psychologically, I don't need help. Who said I need help? Like, why? What makes you think I need help right now?

Am I not capable of anything to do, but how can I support. Support you? That changes that psychological connection of like, oh, support. What does support look like as opposed to help a maturity case?

Support looks like, I'm here with you. I'm here to offer something to you. And if we can get rid of that four letter word and change it into support.

I think that would help in a lot of ways as well.

Love that. Thank you for sharing.

Thank you for inviting me on. Oh, I mean I joke about that. My partner, she and I will always go, can I ask you a question? She's like, yeah, just ask the question. I'm like, no.

Because like I want to know, do you have the capacity right now for a question? I'm not telling you what the question is. You can be, you could actually respond saying like, if it's a heavy question, no, don't ask it right now.

I don't have that capacity. But if it's like which socks should I wear right now and it's something mundane, then yeah, go ahead and ask it.

But like there's nothing, there's no harm in going, can I, can I set this up and can I ask you a question?

Because I'm now giving you the capacity to understand what your capacity is at that moment and, and respond yes or you know what, I need a minute right now as opposed to, hey, David, what do you think about this? It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm in the middle of something right now. Please give me a leeway to what is about to happen.

So it's just being more mindful of, of how we interact with people.

Genius. I love it. Greg, thanks very much.

Thanks for having me.

David, are you the only Greg Wasserman on LinkedIn?

No. No. There's a lot of Greg Wasserman's. Are there really? I think back to your, your joke at the beginning.

I think I'm slowly, because I've been posting for like eight years, slowly becoming like. If you do a search on Google for like Greg Wasserman, I think my name is starting to really show up in number one.

But there's someone in the finance or investment world who makes significantly more money than I do, probably has high five, high profile clients and so forth. But yeah, so LinkedIn is the best.

Place for people to find you. And I reckon if they search for Greg Wasserman you'll probably come up at the top of the list.

You'll see the face, you'll see the headline relationship generator. You'll see the life is time and relationships. I think I'm better looking than the other Greg. But hey, that's just the ego talking there. Right there.

Of course, yeah, of course, of course,.

Of course, by far. And is there anywhere else people should look to find you?

If you do have a podcast of your own, I have a podcast, podcast Network Insights, where I interview the heads of podcast networks to help podcasters understand, should I stay independent, should I join a network, what that may be? So if anyone's listening here, that's in the podcast space, because you're in the podcast space.

I know we're talking mental health and life here, but give that a listen on any platform you like. Brilliant.

Well, I'll put that in the show notes anyway, so there'll be an easy link for people if they want to click on it. I think a lot of the people that I know, certainly in in the core audience, all podcast themselves, or a lot of them podcast themselves.

So that could be something interesting and relevant for them. So, yeah. Greg, thanks very much.

Thanks so much, David. Sam.