Everyone's talking about what AI does to the work. This episode is about what it does to people.

For generations, the way you got good at a job was by doing the small, unglamorous work first. That entry-level grind was the training ground where judgment and expertise got built. AI is very good at that grind, which raises a harder question than "is AI good or bad for us": if the rungs people used to climb are quietly disappearing, what grows the next generation?

This week, Emily Shelton and co-host Katie Dunn, in her first time in the chair, sit down with business anthropologist and author Meghan French Dunbar to get into it. The conversation moves from the disappearing entry-level rung to what genuinely can't be automated, why care is a trainable leadership skill rather than a personality trait, and how leaders can hold the real benefits of AI and its real costs at the same time.

In this episode we cover:

• Why entry-level work has always been the training ground, and what happens when AI absorbs it
• AI as a thinking partner rather than a labour replacement, including Meghan's honest take on sycophancy and how she retrained hers to push back
• What to do with the time AI frees up, and why the instinct to cram it with more work misses the point
• Care as a leadership skill rather than a personality trait, and why it can be trained
• One thing anyone can do tomorrow, whatever their level, to make their work a little more human

Referenced in this episode

• "Generative AI at Work" (Brynjolfsson, Li and Raymond, Stanford and MIT), the source for the 14% overall and 34% novice productivity findings: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/working-papers/generative-ai-work
• "Mental Health at Work: Managers and Money" (UKG Workforce Institute), on managers affecting mental health as much as a spouse: https://www.ukg.com/company/newsroom/managers-impact-our-mental-health-more-doctors-therapists-and-same-spouses
• Torani's people-first opportunity model: https://www.inc.com/jennifer-conrad/toranis-growth-strategy-no-layoffs-local-jobs-shared-ownership/91284581
• Erin Wade's colour-code system at Homeroom: her EEOC testimony at https://www.eeoc.gov/testimony-erin-wade-founder-and-ceo-homeroom, and her 2018 Washington Post op-ed

Everyone's talking about what AI does to work.

2

We wanted to talk about the systems

underneath it, the ones people

3

used to learn and grow through,

4

and the people who get left

behind without those systems

5

Welcome to Reimagining Work from Within.

6

I'm Emily, and this week I'm

joined by my co-host, Katie,

7

in her first time in the chair.

8

Meghan French Dunbar: AI isn't the

problem, people are the problem."

9

Emily: The voice you just

heard is Megan French Dunbar.

10

Megan is a business anthropologist

and author who spent her career on

11

one stubborn question: What would it

actually take to make work good for

12

the people doing it ? She's also a

good friend of Katie's, which is part

13

of why this one goes where it goes.

14

We didn't bring Megan on as an AI expert.

15

We brought her on as someone who

thinks about people, and that turned

16

out to be exactly the right lens for

what's happening to work right now.

17

Here's our conversation.

18

Hello, everyone.

19

Welcome to Reimagining Work from Within.

20

Megan and Katie, thank you for joining us.

21

Meghan French Dunbar:

Thanks for having me.

22

Katie Dunn: Yeah,

23

, Emily: We're so excited to have

Megan here and Katie on for

24

the first time for our podcast.

25

Woo.

26

Thanks, Katie.

27

First podcast

28

Meghan French Dunbar: ever.

29

Emily: That's right.

30

First of many.

31

Meghan French Dunbar: We're like,

"Let's make it as uncomfortable

32

as possible right at the start."

33

Emily: I'm so excited to have

you both in the room today.

34

We're talking about AI in the workplace,

35

The systems that exist in the

workplace, and how AI might

36

be disrupting those systems.

37

For too long, work has needed people to

behave like machines, so we wanna ask what

38

becomes possible when it doesn't anymore.

39

For generations, entry-level work

hasn't been just low-value busy

40

work, it's been the training ground.

41

That's how junior level people have

built pattern recognition, earned the

42

judgment that senior roles require.

43

AI is now able to absorb

a lot of that work.

44

How people have become experts

was by doing the unglamorous work.

45

That's where those reps have come from,

that's where the learning moments happen.

46

Right now, entry-level work is

one of the clearest places to see

47

where AI is changing that system.

48

So this isn't really about

whether AI is good or bad for

49

those entry-level employees.

50

It's about the model that we've

been operating within, and whether

51

that foundation still exists.

52

So Megan, if AI is taking on the

work that entry-level people use

53

to learn on the job, what replaces

that as a way to build expertise?

54

Meghan French Dunbar: Yeah.

55

This is a big question, and one I'm-

Yeah … watching play out in real time.

56

So my husband is a partner at a law

firm, and more and more they're realizing

57

that the work product that AI is able to

produce is often Comparable or sometimes

58

even better than some of what the

junior level associates are able to do.

59

And there's always this question of

profitability and, okay, so if this

60

machine can do this in 10 seconds

what took an associate 10 hours to

61

do, why do we have the associate?

62

And that is not, and I should

be very clear, that is not

63

the question they are asking.

64

That is the question that many solely

profit-driven companies are asking.

65

And I think the flip here is instead

of seeing it as a way to replace

66

labor, it is how do we use it to

upskill, to enhance, and to train

67

those entry-level people coming in?

68

And this is the thing that we're

seeing about AI, is it's really good

69

at distilling information, taking

in massive quantities of content,

70

information, anything that you work

with on a regular basis, and being

71

able to synthesize some of the key

points, and in many cases, be able to

72

help and train entry-level workers.

73

I think there was recent research that

74

they looked at AI deployment across

organizations and across the workforce.

75

There was typically about 14% increased

worker productivity, but for the

76

entry-level workers, when it was being

used in this kind of more training way,

77

they had 34% increase in productivity.

78

And so it is, it's a n- this is it can

take over the training and mentoring that

79

a lot of managers and people who have more

experience, often they want to do but they

80

don't have time to do it in a great way.

81

If we are starting to think about AI being

as a tool not for replacing roles, but for

82

enhancing roles, and we put in the time

right at the start to actually train the

83

AI on how it would upskill entry-level

employees and junior associates, and

84

what are the things they need to learn,

and how can we give them critical

85

feedback, and what case law do they need

to know in the case of the law firm?

86

All of a sudden it becomes a needed tool

that we actually never have had before.

87

Katie Dunn: I'm curious with that.

88

So if the training of these very tactical

low-level type of jobs doesn't have

89

to be on the manager or senior level

to do that for the junior employees

90

now, what does that role look like?

91

How does mentorship and apprenticeship

happen, given that they don't have

92

to teach these things that AI could

do more efficiently or quicker?

93

Meghan French Dunbar: I love this.

94

The thing that instantly comes to

mind is that there's a very large gap

95

between training someone on skills and

certain levels of expertise or data

96

aggregation, and the social element

and the thought leadership element.

97

And the, without a doubt, the most-

Valuable thing I ever did as a

98

manager was I had quarterly sit-down

one-on-ones with everyone on my team.

99

And I had eight people on my team.

100

It was small, but as the co-founder

and CEO of a company, I would just

101

sit down with people, not as a h-

how can I tell you how to be better?

102

It was very much a listening session

of help me understand what's standing

103

in the way of you thriving right now.

104

What are you worried about, or

what are you being challenged with?

105

What are you excited to

learn about right now?

106

And I really saw my role as the mentor

being someone who helps them develop

107

both personally and professionally,

and that is very different.

108

I don't believe that we've gotten to

the point where AI can replace that

109

part of it, which a huge component of

that is just being heard and feeling

110

seen and feeling like you're valued

and like your opinions matter, and the

111

troubleshooting that you can do as a

manager when you're looking at someone

112

who's contending with an issue in the

workplace that you just found out about.

113

There's still a lot of gaps that AI is

not gonna be able to fill that are the

114

kind of intangible leadership qualities.

115

Emily: It's so interesting because we

talk about AI impacting these entry-level

116

positions, and I think what comes to mind

immediately is that kind of grunt-level

117

work or the more detail-oriented work

that is very helpful for learning

118

when you're taking on a new role.

119

But we're not talking about the

conversations that those moments present,

120

the questions that come up when you're

working through that work, the opportunity

121

to take those questions to your mentor

and get a little bit deeper on how they're

122

thinking through some of these processes

instead of just the actual mechanisms.

123

If AI is taking that the grunt work,

the grind work off of our plate,

124

then what is actually freed up?

125

How can we have those conversations

or create the space for those

126

conversations in a different way?

127

Curious about what you both think there.

128

I think we heard a little bit, but

I'd love to hear a little bit more.

129

Yeah, Megan, what's getting freed up?

130

Meghan French Dunbar: I think this

is-- I don't wanna overgeneralize and

131

say most of our knee-jerk reaction,

but I bet it probably is, "Oh, cool,

132

this has freed up more of my time.

133

I'm going to jam that time with

more work and more productivity."

134

Which, yes, I understand, especially

in the context if we're at a publicly

135

traded company where there is so

much pressure and expectation put

136

on KPIs and performance metrics

137

and if we're in a different paradigm

at privately held company or a more

138

values-based company or we work for

ourselves, what does it look like

139

to look at that time that's being

freed up as that time to, rest?

140

Or take time to be creative or to work on

our mental and physical health, to go do

141

things that make us happy, which all of

these things are the thing that actually

142

sustain us in doing our best work.

143

There's the broaden-and-build theory,

which is finding that the more that

144

we access positive emotions like

joy and connection, the more we're

145

actually open and receptive In the

near term, it makes us better and more

146

present and able to connect with other

people, better decision-making, and

147

in the long term, it makes us more

resilient in overcoming challenges.

148

So there's things like this that

we're just like, "Oh, it's a waste

149

of time," and God f- I couldn't fill

that hour with anything but more work.

150

And I'm curious about the invitation

here of what does it look like to use

151

those hours that are freed up to really

cultivate our own sense of wellbeing

152

and the quality of our life and our

work, and how we're able to show up?

153

Or helping our teams do that in some way,

deepening the connection on our teams.

154

At finding ways that are outside the

paradigm of pure productivity that

155

actually improve workplace performance

and people's quality of life.

156

Katie Dunn: And to build on that,

I have a question for you, Megan.

157

So in your book, A lot of the things

that you're talking about in the old

158

playback book of how business is done

those feelings of needing to hustle,

159

the grind of, what work hours look

like what work ethic looks like.

160

What do you think needs to shift, or have

you seen examples in companies that have

161

made that shift to include that broaden

and build philosophy to incorporate that

162

into not only the philosophy, but how they

structure expectations of the workplace?

163

Meghan French Dunbar: I love this.

164

Great.

165

And I will be…

166

I want to be very clear.

167

I feel very confident speaking

about the workplace side of things.

168

The AI side of things is where

I'm like, "I'm not an expert."

169

But this question here, I know some good

examples- on the workplace side of things.

170

My favorite case study in

the world, Torani Syrups.

171

If you've ever had a flavored

latte, you've had Torani Syrups.

172

100-year-old company

based in the Bay Area.

173

Their CEO, Melanie Del Becco, took over 35

years ago, and since she took over, built

174

what she has called the opportunity model,

which is really looking at investing

175

in broadening people's opportunities,

people's financial resilience, their

176

sense of shared success, their learning

and development, their sense of autonomy.

177

They have grown over 20% year

over year for 35 years in a row.

178

They're on track to be a billion-dollar

company in the next two years.

179

They double in size every

three and a half years.

180

And so this is an example of where

you hear that, and you're like,

181

"This m- they must be high-pressure,

profit at all cost organization."

182

And growth is very much a part of

the way that they think about their

183

values, but it is a holistic growth.

184

It is the more that we invest in the

growth of our people and the growth

185

of our community and the vitality of

all of those people and their ability

186

to thrive, the more the company grows.

187

She literally talks about the

investment in the growth of our

188

people and our community is the

leading indicator, and the financial

189

performance is the lagging indicator.

190

And so this would be a perfect

example where the things that they

191

do when they free up time, they have

things called learning journeys.

192

They just launched into the

sauce category, and before they

193

even think about launching a new

product, they do learning journeys.

194

They take cross-departmental group

of humans from all different levels

195

in the organization, all different

departments, and then they literally

196

are paid to go learn about sauce,

learn about every single element that

197

they could possibly think of with

sauce, with product launches, with

198

looking at it from every single angle.

199

And then they spend time talking about

all their insights and comparing it

200

with data, and they are paid to learn.

201

And this is one of the things that

has consistently been a competitive

202

differentiator, is that they invest in

people's continued growth and development.

203

They also give people the opportunity

to change their roles and departments

204

whenever they want with career mixology.

205

They invest in autonomy, giving people…

206

If someone…

207

one of the men that I ended up talking

to there for the case study that I worked

208

on, he was like, "I said s- one thing.

209

I was working in customer service, and

I said one thing about how I was really

210

excited about working understanding what

the trade shows, what we do at trade

211

shows," 'cause I felt like that was this

really unique place where I might thrive.

212

And they paid for him to go to a

trade show to check it out, and

213

then his managers figured out a

way to make sure that he got on

214

that team when an opening came up.

215

Emily: So cool

216

… Meghan French Dunbar: i'm going

all over the place because I

217

get very excited about this.

218

But it's investing in the foundations

of what makes a company truly sing

219

over the long term instead of just,

"Cool, we have more hours in the day.

220

Let's squeeze out some more efficiency."

221

Emily: Yeah … I love that.

222

That's a beautiful example, Megan,

and it really speaks to the power of

223

enabling more human-centered work, right?

224

When we invest in our

people invest back in us.

225

It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

226

Thank you.

227

And I wanted to just shout out, because

I know that you said that you're

228

not an AI expert, but I also know

that we've talked about you've been

229

doing some researching and building

or playing with it on your own.

230

So we've been talking about

AI as a thinking partner.

231

It's…

232

That's a completely different use case

than AI as a re- labor replacement, right?

233

Could you tell us a little bit

about how you've been using

234

AI as a thinking partner?

235

Meghan French Dunbar: For starters,

I don't necessarily have the most

236

transferable case study here.

237

But I am a solo entrepreneur.

238

I work for myself, and I'm a team of one.

239

And so my little Claude, I call her Nova,

my little Nova is pretty much my coworker.

240

And the way that I was initially

using it, I was like, "Here,

241

I wrote this substack thing.

242

What do you think?"

243

And that was before I realized the whole

element that the AI is actually trained

244

to tell us what it thinks we want to hear.

245

It wants to make us feel good.

246

There's an element of psychophancy.

247

And so I learned this the hard way

because it was, boosting up my ego

248

and telling me all the things that

I wanted to hear and telling me that

249

things were great when they weren't.

250

And what happened after that

is I retrained it based on the

251

instructions that I gave it right

at the top to essentially be

252

my, quote, "business partner."

253

It's "You have a vested interest in my

success, and as part of that, what I need

254

you to do is give me honest feedback.

255

Help me understand things

that I'm overlooking.

256

Help me understand when I'm coming at

this from a place of reactivity and being

257

defensive rather than being intentional

and really leading with my values."

258

But I use it very specifically when

I'm going into podcast recordings or

259

anything where I'm like, "Hey, here's all

the things I'm gonna be talking about.

260

I'm really interested in this and this.

261

Can you help me find supporting data?

262

Or what is data that is going to

disprove what I'm trying to say here?

263

What is the devil's advocate side of this

that I need to be aware of from a place

264

of curiosity, not a place of I want to

figure out how to defend my position?"

265

And there's all sorts of incredible

research about having a growth mindset.

266

I really try to think of it

as my growth mindset buddy.

267

And taking that to the next level,

one of the things that has just

268

been the most helpful on the

face of the planet, I have ADHD.

269

There's a lot of people who are neurod-

270

Emily: i'm here raising my hand.

271

Meghan French Dunbar: There's a lot of

people with neurodivergence who have…

272

And I don't even wanna

call them deficiencies.

273

I would just say my brain

is built in a different way.

274

In some ways, it has like a total

superpower, and there are some ways I

275

have so much content, I have so many

ideas, I have so many things going on.

276

I used to run a magazine, and

I have interviews, and I've got

277

a book, and I've got a podcast.

278

And it is fabulous because I am

like a content-churning machine, and

279

I cannot keep track of any of it.

280

And there's no strategy.

281

It is just all over the place.

282

And so I actually worked with a

friend of mine who this is one

283

of her superpowers is she helps

people understand what AI can do.

284

And as a part of that, she helped train

my little AI guy to actually build me

285

dashboards, content engine dashboards

that show up and they look like websites.

286

And they update in real time, and

I have, I think, seven of them

287

for all of my different needs.

288

And so it's "Here's my podcast.

289

Here's every single transcript

I've ever recorded."

290

And so then it can keep track of all of

that, and then when I'm like, "Hey, I

291

wanna write about this," look through

all of the content I've ever created

292

and find things that I've already talked

about that I can already build into this.

293

Or, "Please help keep me on track.

294

I want to try to put a

Substack out every two weeks.

295

Please make sure that I am thinking about

the next Substack article within a week

296

of when I need to publish the next one.

297

And based on my strategy, can you suggest

some topics that I already have brought

298

up here that I should maybe focus on?"

299

And so it has become like a way to

organize all of the chaos in my brain

300

and to put it in a visual dashboard

that auto-populates and auto-updates

301

based on being plugged into the

backend of all the other stuff.

302

And like the difference between last

year and this year, having that system

303

and not having that system, it is a

complete sea change for me in my ability

304

to work and work well, and also it's

305

It really helps in my mental health,

because it is not fun to feel

306

disorganized and chaotic, and like

you have a million things that you

307

need to keep track of but You can't.

308

You physically can't.

309

My brain does not do that.

310

And so to have a tool and a system, and

to start thinking of the ways in which,

311

like ADHD is a use case, but there are a

lot of different ways in which we might

312

have a blind spot or we might have what

we would call a weakness or something

313

that is a continual source of stress.

314

I imagine with some creativity and

maybe someone who knows the ropes

315

on the back end of a lot of these

AI platforms, that you can figure

316

out creative problem-solving.

317

I have a lot of people who use it to

keep track of their kids, all their kids'

318

social stuff, and their schedules- Yeah

… and like the social calendar at home- Yeah

319

or meal planning, workouts.

320

There's so many things that it can

become a creative and useful tool for if

321

we stop thinking about it as just like

it's gonna just answer our questions.

322

Katie Dunn: The

323

Emily: Yeah.

324

Yeah, absolutely.

325

Katie Dunn: This sparked two ideas

actually from what you were saying.

326

The first is that in an interesting

way, even though sometimes we think

327

about AI as dumbing down, that kind

of piece where it's just telling you

328

what you wanna hear, or you're just

getting it out, and I think that's a

329

risk with what we were talking about

before with the junior level employees

330

coming in and not having the discernment-

331

To know what's true and what is

they're pulling from somewhere

332

that's not relevant to what I need.

333

So maybe that's another touchpoint from

the human training piece, and/or a whole

334

skill to set up those guardrails and

parameters inside of a company, just as

335

you did for yourself, of this is what

I specifically need this to do, Given

336

that, what are some things that if you

were in a company, and you were trying

337

to figure out how to make a system-wide

plan for how AI is used, or these are

338

the prompts that everybody's using

across the board that matches our values

339

or matches our business objectives,

what might be some critical questions

340

that you would have as a business

leader for setting up that system?

341

What would you wanna be thinking about

to make it effective for your workforce?

342

Meghan French Dunbar: I am like I would

like to talk to an expert about that."

343

The things that come to mind

I think one is what is your

344

definition of success as a company?

345

As you are, like, it might be financial

growth and financial growth at all

346

cost, which is a way to run a business.

347

And if there are other considerations

within concept of success and the goals

348

that you have for the organization

and how you want people to feel, when

349

you mentioned values, I think values

is a huge part of this, is how do

350

we use this as a tool to ensure that

we are consistently making decisions

351

through the lens of the things that

we say that we care about most.

352

A lot of people come up with their

corporate company values and their

353

higher purpose, and they slap them on

a poster, and they feel great about

354

the work that they did, and then if you

ask them five weeks later what those

355

things were, they would have no idea.

356

Because they aren't built into

decision-making protocols.

357

They aren't built into

incentive structures.

358

They aren't built into rewards.

359

And so thinking about, that's a

really interesting use case for me

360

right there is okay, here's how…

361

here's our current incentive and bonus

structures or compensation plans.

362

If you were to look at our company

values and restructure this, or what are

363

some inventive ways that we could think

about actually baking our values in so

364

that people are thinking about these on

a regular basis, what would those be?

365

There's a lot of different

ways for that to happen.

366

And I will also say, I think the thing

that I keep seeing a lot of people

367

do is, "Cool, we know how to use AI.

368

Yeah, we like, we're smart, and we're

business owners, and we can do this."

369

And so they think they like either,

like we used to do with social media,

370

they like hand this off to a young

person on the team who's like a little

371

bit more technologically savvy than

the rest of them, or they hand it off

372

to like HR or something, and they're

not actually bringing in people who

373

understand what the tool can do.

374

Yeah.

375

And I…

376

a lot of these people, they have to be

self-trained because this is so nascent,

377

and it is so ever evolving, and it's

changing so fast, like month to month,

378

week to week, that a lot of these

people are just training themselves.

379

And I know two people, one who,

literally is using AI from the

380

strategic level of how it helps large

multinational organizations make

381

better strategy, and the way that

her brain thinks about AI, I like…

382

It was like, "Does not compute."

383

I c- I couldn't even understand

what she was talking about.

384

It was so incredible.

385

And there's the more, the people

like the woman here I worked with in

386

Boulder, who just really understand

what the tools are capable of.

387

And most of us don't know what we don't

know, and so when we're approaching

388

an AI tool, we're like, "It does

the chat, and it has a deep research

389

mode, and that's all I need to know,

and so here's our values," and bing,

390

bop, "Here's our company protocol."

391

I literally had someone ask me,

"Should I use AI to create our

392

ethics, like our company-wide

ethics document on how to use AI?"

393

And I was like, listen to what

you are saying right now."

394

No.

395

Speaker 4: Feels

396

Meghan French Dunbar: That person ended

up hiring someone who is a lawyer and

397

does this for a living at this point.

398

And the number of things that they,

'cause this person had actually asked

399

the AI to do it, and they looked at

it, and then they worked with the

400

lawyer, and the lawyer, the number of

things that the lawyer pointed out that

401

they were overlooking was staggering.

402

So work with someone who

knows what they're doing.

403

Katie Dunn: Yes.

404

The robots are like, "Just trust us.

405

Meghan French Dunbar: Fine."

406

Katie Dunn: Exactly.

407

" Emily: Give us all the power.

408

We can handle it."

409

Meghan French Dunbar:

Liability release waiver.

410

It is fine.

411

You're doing great.

412

Emily: That's a, an interesting segue.

413

We want, I wanted for us to also talk

about care as a leadership skill, and

414

that, Ability to catch those moments, both

in a document being made, or if you're

415

having a discussion with an employee and

something's said that makes you go, "Ah.

416

Maybe there's something

more going on there.

417

Let's investigate that further."

418

So care at work isn't a personality trait.

419

It's a leadership skill,

and it's trainable.

420

And managers are doing their best to

close the gap between the humans and

421

the AIs that they're using at work.

422

We can't talk about what makes AI

possible without being honest about what

423

it costs or what it can't do for us.

424

So Megan, there's a real shadow side

here too that we wanted to address.

425

How do leader- leaders hold the

benefit and the cost at the same time?

426

Meghan French Dunbar: Yeah.

427

This is a big one.

428

I was recently talking to Minda Harts.

429

She's incredible author, trust expert,

and I was telling her about our next-door

430

neighbor who literally told us that

the company that he's been working for

431

more than a decade has given him the

task of training the AI to replace him.

432

And I was like- That's like asking

someone to dig their own career grave.

433

That is the most inhumane thing,

and, I think I just blacked

434

out a little bit from rage.

435

I'm coming back into my body now.

436

Emily: Shake it off.

437

Meghan French Dunbar: Yeah.

438

So those things are happening, people

looking at this and saying, "Oh, my

439

gosh, how many jobs can I replace

as quickly as humanly possible?"

440

And we're starting to see this, and Gen

Z is taking the brunt of the impact here.

441

And so one of the things that Minda

said that just rung so true in

442

my head, she said, "AI isn't the

problem, people are the problem."

443

We are the people that

are deploying these tools.

444

We are the people training these tools.

445

We are the people making the decisions

about how these tools are used.

446

And this trickles all the way back up

to alignment with company values and

447

what you consider success and what type

of company you wanna be in the world.

448

But then when we're looking at the

impact that AI has on killing jobs and

449

making people a bit dumber, where they're

not having to think as hard, and then

450

there's the environmental component.

451

My husband is a renewable energy

attorney, and a ton of his cases are

452

looking at these staggering energy use

and demand that is just spiking state

453

to state based on data centers and all

the things that are required for this.

454

And he was in one case, and literally

witnesses submitted testimony a month

455

ago, and the case was last week, and they

had to change the testimony between a

456

month ago and today because the demand

load had changed so dramatically.

457

Katie Dunn: Wow.

458

Oh, my God.

459

Meghan French Dunbar: And so

there's all of these issues that,

460

we need to take into consideration.

461

And on the day-to-day for business

managers or leaders who are thinking

462

about this, I think some of the

things that keep coming up for me are,

463

Don't just sweep it under the rug and

pretend like this isn't happening.

464

Be aware of it, educate yourself about

the issues and what's happening here.

465

Understand what your values are and

what you stand for and why you make

466

decisions, and those are some of the

things that we should regularly be

467

doing as leaders if we want great

companies and great company cultures.

468

But I think the thing that, because this

is so nascent, and because a lot of it is

469

very unknowable, and it's uncomfortable,

we don't like to talk about things that

470

we don't know about, and we have this

kind of idea as managers and leaders that

471

we need to have all the answers, and we

need to come across as we don't wanna

472

make anyone panic if we look like we don't

really know what we're talking about,

473

and there's no possible way that you can

know everything there is to know about AI

474

right now because of how nascent it is.

475

And so being honest with your team

and having open and transparent

476

conversations about those tension

points within the organization.

477

And of course, we love our good old

top-down rigid hierarchy management of

478

let's give people zero information and

not tell them why decisions are being

479

made, and we can't trust them with company

financial secrets, and then we're going

480

to expect them to trust us and do their

best f- work for us, which is garbage.

481

So what does it look like to actually

have open and transparent conversations

482

to say, "We are deploying AI.

483

We are seeing that these are some of the

ways that it might impact our company.

484

What ideas do you have?

485

What concerns do you have?

486

In what ways is this

making your job easier?

487

In what ways might this make

your job more innovative?"

488

Do you have ideas on how

we could drive efficiency?

489

The best ideas are gonna come from

the people that are closest to the

490

problems, and the more that we equip

people to say, What do you think?

491

We don't know all the answers, but we're

doing our best, and here's how we make

492

our decisions, and here's our value set,"

we do better with collective wisdom.

493

And so I think not shying away from

that very uncomfortable vulnerability

494

of this is an unknowable thing, and

it's uncomfortable, and you're gonna

495

have to be a little bit vulnerable.

496

And when people are openly

vulnerable and transparent with

497

their team tends to trust them 5.3

498

times as much as typical managers.

499

Katie Dunn: Love it.

500

Emily: Love that

501

Katie Dunn: Yeah.

502

And what it really sounds like is this is

it's relationship management and change

503

management- Yeah … as much as like

you said it's a people problem, it's not

504

the tech problem, because this is a tool

and things have changed and evolved, and

505

thinking about other areas of change,

and when those come up, and how the

506

management or teams get through that in

a positive way is a really great case

507

study for coming into this next unknown.

508

Meghan French Dunbar: Yeah.

509

I, when we all talked about this in our

prep call is, and it's not something

510

that I've really explored, but I

was like, "Oh, this is a fascinating

511

case study," is thinking as a manager

or leader, how can this be used

512

To help you with the people stuff.

513

For example, onboarding or getting regular

feedback from your team about their

514

working styles or their needs, or the

things that they're struggling with, or

515

things like understanding that people on

your team, one person has ADHD, or one

516

person is contending with depression,

or whatever it might be, and then

517

being able to use that information when

you're walking into a meeting or like,

518

a conference, to be able to say, "Here's

the members of my team that are coming.

519

What do I need to know to do the best

job of connecting with these people?

520

Is there anything that

I need to keep in mind?"

521

There's a lot of ways that we can

use these, because they're really

522

great at aggregating information and

remembering things for us, little

523

things that we often, don't have the

brain space to remember as managers.

524

But, what is their Myers-Briggs?

525

What are the StrengthsFinder?

526

Whatever tools you're already

using, and then actually deploying

527

that information and saying,

"Here's my team's Myers-Briggs, or

528

here's my team's StrengthsFinder.

529

How would you set up this

project now that you know this?"

530

Emily: How can I best communicate

with this partner going forward?

531

I personally love using AI to

help me prep ahead of a call.

532

If a couple weeks have passed to paste

that transcript over and say, "What

533

action items did I walk away with?

534

What action items do we

need to follow up with?"

535

Just to get that memory jog, especially

as somebody who also has ADHD.

536

It's so helpful, and it has been

beneficial to my mental health as well.

537

I feel more confident walking

into a meeting, and having that

538

confidence, now I'm able to hold

the space in a much better way.

539

So there are ways for this to

make us feel, and feel more human,

540

and be more human in our work.

541

Katie Dunn: Yeah.

542

Go ahead, Katie.

543

Can I ask one more question, too?

544

Please.

545

Meghan, you mentioned in an earlier

conversation about a leader that you

546

know who uses AI to collect satisfaction

or what's going on, and it then is

547

able to see trends across- a company.

548

Can you tell us about that story?

549

Meghan French Dunbar: This was,

a former example that I was

550

like, "Oh, I wish she had AI."

551

But Erin Wade, she was the co-founder

of Homeroom Restaurant in Oakland,

552

Macaroni and Cheese restaurant.

553

She ended up selling,

554

But they had one of the

best company cultures.

555

I think it was something insane.

556

Their average tenure was 2.4

557

years, but the industry standard

for the service industry

558

is nine Or was three months

559

Emily: Wow

560

Meghan French Dunbar: And they were in

the top 1% of performance of restaurants

561

countrywide, and one of the things

that she did is, she had over 100

562

employees as a standard restaurant,

and every day when people were clocking

563

out for the day, they just had this

super quick three-question survey.

564

And I think it h- something

like, "How was your day?

565

Is there anything that you were challenged

with or that I need to know about?

566

And is there any suggestions for

improvement on things you saw today?"

567

And she just conditioned the team that

they just real quick filled that in, and

568

at that time, it all uploaded to an Excel

spreadsheet, and then every Friday, Erin

569

would just sit there and look through it

all and look for trends or look for things

570

that she consistently came up or some

one person was struggling with something

571

con- over a certain amount of time.

572

And it surfaced a lot of

incredible data for her.

573

And in this case, I was like,

"Can you imagine if she had AI?"

574

She was doing that incredible work of

aggre- getting all the data, and our

575

brain can only hold so much, where

she's looking at this for daily with

576

100 employees and all that information.

577

Emily: Go for it, please.

578

Well- I love a geek-out moment.

579

We love

580

Meghan French Dunbar: Because she

had built this culture of feedback

581

where people not only were conditioned

that feedback, giving her feedback

582

was okay, but that she would act

on it, that it was taken seriously.

583

It wasn't like, "I'm just gonna

throw this in the comment box,

584

and Godspeed," like I never hear-

No … anything about it again.

585

She'd built this incredible culture,

and one day she got an email from a

586

bunch of her team members, and they

were like, "Hey, we're contending with

587

a lot of issues of sexual harassment

at the hands of our customers."

588

And Erin was like, "What?"

589

So she brought these women in, started

talking to them, and going all the way

590

through, there's a lot more to the story,

but essentially said, "I'd like to invite

591

you to co-create a solution with me."

592

They created a working group

where she paid them on their days

593

off to come in and work on this-

594

with her, and they ended up

creating a system, red, yellow,

595

green, and it was essentially…

596

Or red, yellow, orange.

597

If someone at a table said "I

have an orange," it was like,

598

"Someone's giving me a vibe.

599

I don't feel great, and I

need to let the manager know."

600

And the manager would say, "Do you

need me to take over the table?"

601

No questions asked.

602

They're like, "Hey, I'm having a yellow."

603

That meant they've moved from creepy vibe

to they've said something that's made the

604

person uncomfortable, and if you tell a

manager you have a yellow, automatically

605

the manager takes over the table.

606

And a red is overt touching or

doing something, saying a comment

607

that is so egregious that it

would count as sexual harassment.

608

And at that point, they're, no

questions asked, again, immediately

609

escorted out of the restaurant.

610

Speaker 4: Amazing.

611

Meghan French Dunbar: And this system

that they co-created together, not

612

only did it reduce the incidences of

reds to zero, because as they found

613

out, sexual harassment often builds.

614

It's something that the person, they

try, they do the first thing, and

615

Then they make the comment, and then they

make the really terrible comment, and

616

then they feel like they can do the thing.

617

And so when you stop it, when you give

the power to the person who is reporting,

618

where they're not questioned or have,

being asked to explain themselves, this

619

system ends up, she writes a Washington

Post op-ed, testifies in front of the

620

EOC EEOC about it, and they end up

adopting this and giving it to restaurants

621

nationwide as a way to deal with sexual

harassment at the hands of customers- Wow

622

all because of building a feedback

culture and making sure that they know

623

that feedback is taken seriously, and

we're gonna do something about it.

624

Emily: Incredible.

625

What an incredible story.

626

I'm geeking out, too.

627

That's so cool.

628

Meghan French Dunbar: We are the coolest

workplace dorks that have ever lived.

629

Listen to this story about feedback.

630

Emily: Good.

631

That's so amazing.

632

It's the power of feedback

We all have our thing.

633

Yeah.

634

It's so true.

635

That actually is a great segue for

us to wrap up our conversation.

636

I wanted us just to chat about

what better actually looks like.

637

We would rather land on something

useful than impressive on our call

638

today, although that story is hugely

impressive, and I wanna know more.

639

I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna find

that Washington Post article."

640

Link in the show notes.

641

Meghan French Dunbar: I'll send it to you.

642

It's great.

643

Emily: Not everybody that's

listening is gonna have the

644

authority to redesign the system.

645

They might only have the ability

to change one thing about

646

how they're working tomorrow.

647

For someone who can't redesign

the whole system, what's one

648

thing they could do to start?

649

Katie, do you wanna go first?

650

Katie Dunn: Yeah.

651

I think that's a great question.

652

Emily: It doesn't have to be our closing

question, too, if we don't have an answer.

653

Yeah.

654

We can also…

655

I,

656

Meghan French Dunbar:

I can also go, if you

657

Katie Dunn: I think…

658

i've talked about this in so many…

659

I've heard Megan address this

question before- … and I'm

660

trying to remember what she said.

661

But-

662

Meghan French Dunbar: You have

wells of wisdom inside of you

663

Katie Dunn: Me just, let

me just ask Claude for this

664

Meghan French Dunbar: quick

665

Katie Dunn: Yeah, exactly.

666

No, I think that it's a valid question,

and especially because we are working

667

within a system that isn't these

workplaces that we all that are

668

the Tyrannis of the world, right?

669

They're…

670

Some people go in and they're doing

their job, and it is very top-down.

671

They feel like they don't have

much agency within their own work.

672

And I guess I would go back to the

questions of how can they use these

673

tools to make their own creativity

open up, or their, within what they're

674

doing to make their daily job feel more

675

Emily: You've got it.

676

Katie Dunn: So the questions of what they

can do in their own work, how they can

677

bring creativities or processes in that

makes it more, feel more generative, even

678

if they are going into a place that has

this traditional system where they feel

679

like they don't have much authority there.

680

So that's where I would steer

somebody who has this question, but

681

I would love, Megan, with all of the

research that you've done, I would

682

love to hear you, your perspective.

683

Meghan French Dunbar: Yeah.

684

It's very similar.

685

I think on the individual side, regardless

of where you are in the organizational

686

hierarchy, is taking one step back and

asking the question, how can I use this

687

tool to optimize the quality of my being?

688

Not the quantity of my doing,

the quality of my being.

689

And one of the things that I think about a

lot is what are my primary stress points?

690

And Emily, you mentioned like one

of yours, like I'm heading into a

691

meeting, and the way that my brain

is built, I, sometimes I feel a

692

little overwhelmed going into this.

693

So if that's a point of stress where

you constantly feel like you're lacking

694

a little confidence or whatever it

might be, how can we use this as a tool

695

to support Addressing those issues.

696

Or your mental health.

697

My friend Vanessa regularly

talks about how she uses it.

698

She's a mom of two young kids, and I am

as well, and oh my God, it is so hard.

699

And like the question of what do

I make for dinner sometimes is the

700

thing that is gonna send me over

the edge at the end of the night.

701

And she uses hers for

grocery prep, meal prep.

702

She has like a whole thing.

703

It spits out, "Here's what you need to

go buy at the grocery store on Sunday.

704

Here's all your meals.

705

Here's your Monday ingredients.

706

Here's your plan," meals done.

707

Workout plan done.

708

Like whatever it is that is a source

of stress that can improve- the

709

quality of your being, do that.

710

And on the manager side of things, I think

if you have a team and people working

711

for you, remembering that 70% of people

now say that your manager or leader has

712

as much or more of an impact on your

mental health than your spouse does.

713

So going back to that initial thing

we talked about about how instead of

714

using this as a, "Okay, I've freed

up an hour of my time," because

715

something that used to take me this

hour, I just got done in 10 seconds.

716

Instead of immediately filling that with

more things to do, what could you do to

717

fill that in things that actually support

your mental health, your physical health,

718

the way that you show up on a daily

basis with the people who you work with?

719

And sit down and talk to your team

What are they worried about with AI?

720

What are they using right now

that they're excited about?

721

How is it helping them

supplement creativity?

722

How is it helping them make decisions?

723

Just ask them questions in a listening

session to make sure that they are

724

heard, and also it's not just that,

it is to actually listen to them.

725

This is incredible data for you to

use, and you are building these tools

726

and how they're gonna be used at your

organization together in real time,

727

so bring them in to that process.

728

Emily: Absolutely.

729

And as, this is all evolving.

730

The workplace is evolving.

731

AI is evolving, and so I think that

creates the perfect opportunity to have

732

evolving conversations with your teams,

and check in and see how they're feeling,

733

and use it as an opportunity to connect

with your people and see how this is

734

working for them or not working for them.

735

Whew.

736

We covered a lot today.

737

Thanks, you two.

738

Yeah, how did you feel about our

conversation about AI and workplace- I

739

Meghan French Dunbar: Not, there

wasn't a single original idea

740

that came out of me that- No

741

Emily: original thoughts.

742

No.

743

Meghan French Dunbar: Joking.

744

I feel great.

745

I am so happy to be thinking about these

concepts in the context of workplace

746

culture and leadership and all of the

incredible things that we all get to work

747

on a daily basis, because the humanity is

being stripped so quickly from deployment

748

of AI that these types of conversations

are mission critical right now.

749

Emily: Absolutely.

750

Katie, how do

751

Katie Dunn: How do you like it?

752

Great conversation.

753

I love it.

754

Awesome.

755

And I feel really great because as

you were talking about before, Megan,

756

this isn't the first conversation

we'll have about this and how it's

757

rapidly changing, so I think it's

great that we left on some questions.

758

And for me, it comes back to that

human connection, and making sure that

759

we're Checking back with our values

and how we wanna show up in the world.

760

So it feels really

positive altogether, so-

761

Emily: Great … appreciate

762

Katie Dunn: this

763

Emily: Meghan, before I stop

us from recording, where

764

can our listeners find you?

765

Meghan French Dunbar: I think I'm the only

Meghan French Dunbar in the world, so you

766

can Google that, meghanfrenchdunbar.com,

767

LinkedIn, Substack, and I have

a podcast Unbehave, and I post

768

every other week on both of those.

769

And so you can check those out, and my

book is called This Isn't Working, which

770

you can find anywhere books are sold.

771

Emily: Yeah, and on that book's website,

you can get seven top insights from the

772

book So I highly recommend you getting

those seven insights downloaded just

773

so you can get a little taste of it.

774

But Meghan, thank you

so much for joining us.

775

It was a pleasure to have you on.

776

And listeners, you can find other

episodes of Reimagining Work From

777

Within wherever you listen to podcasts.

778

Meghan French Dunbar: Thank you.