In the first episode of the series we meet Jamie and hear about the depth of his experience across all of society, from Cook County Jail to large family enterprises. He shares the experience of growing up as the son of a Rabbi and the impact it had on his own life. 

We dive into the research and what motivated it along with an outline for the four phases of The Quest. 

The Quest for Legitimacy: How Children of Prominent Families Discover Their Unique Place in the World is available to buy on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. It will also be available in book stores. 

You can follow these links to order the book: 

Amazon USA 

Amazon UK 

Barnes and Noble 

If you would like to speak to us about a bulk order for your family, your clients or team members please email us:

hello@questforlegitimacy.com  

Support the Show

The podcast is entirely self-funded by me. I am not looking for sympathy as it is something that I love to do and I have a passion for providing great content for family businesses across the world. Some listeners have asked for ways in which they can support the show, be that through reviews, sharing with friends or a donation. As such I have set up a page that outlines all the ways that you can support what I am doing.

www.fambizpodcast.com/support

Work With Russ

If what I have spoken about in the show resonates and you want to discuss how I can help you and your family business drop me an email: russ@familybusinesspartnership.com or head over to www.familybusinesspartnership.com

Sign up to the Newsletter

You can get podcasts, videos and blogs delivered directly to your inbox by signing up to the newsletter. Head over to www.fambizpodcast.com and sign up now

Russ Haworth: 00:01:01

Hello, and welcome to this episode of the family business podcast.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:05

I'm your host Russ Hayworth.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:07

And I'm.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:08

Really excited about this upcoming series.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:11

Mainly because I'm introducing you to a project that I've been working on.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:14

For a number of years, and it's really exciting to be able to

Russ Haworth: 00:01:18

talk much more about it on here.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:21

If you listened to the preview episode, you'll know a little bit about what the.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:26

topic of the next few shows will be.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:29

But on this episode, we're going to introduce you to, the person that

Russ Haworth: 00:01:33

I've been working with, which is Dr.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:36

Jamie Weiner.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:37

He had a fantastic idea for a research project.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:41

, we've got put in touch.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:43

And, he asked me if I wanted to join.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:46

I said, yes, it was a no brainer.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:48

Really.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:48

So I will introduce you to Jamie.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:51

Who also gives you some detail on the kind of, , early days of the project,

Russ Haworth: 00:01:58

how it came about what it is that we did.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:01

, and then towards the end of the episode, we talk about the four phases of what

Russ Haworth: 00:02:06

we term as the quest for legitimacy.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:09

Which is the name of the book that Jamie has written.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:12

The best place to find out more about this project and the book itself, and

Russ Haworth: 00:02:17

to be able to pre-order the book is on the quest for legitimacy website.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:23

. And that website address is quest for legitimacy.com.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:29

You can sign up to a newsletter.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:32

It is a quest for legitimacy newsletter.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:34

So it's not the same as the one.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:36

If you signed up.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:37

For the podcast newsletter.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:39

This is a separate newsletter.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:42

Dedicated to this topic.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:44

, I do recommend everybody go over and sign up.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:48

To get updates on the research to get insights into what was

Russ Haworth: 00:02:54

discovered beyond what we're going to be covering in the shows.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:57

, and also to, , order a copy of the book.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:00

It is a fantastic book.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:02

I know I might be slightly biased on this.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:04

But it really is an exceptional book.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:07

It's been written through stories rather than, , an academic book.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:12

So it's very accessible, very relatable.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:15

And, uh, yeah, I'm sure you'll really enjoy it, , quest for legitimacy.com

Russ Haworth: 00:03:19

for all information on that.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:22

Right.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:22

I'll pass over to the discussion with Jamie.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:26

I'm sure you're going to enjoy it.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:27

And i look forward to bringing you this series on this very exciting

Russ Haworth: 00:03:30

topic Well, hello everybody.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:32

And welcome to this very special episode of the family business podcast.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:38

I'm particularly excited because for the first time I get to introduce

Russ Haworth: 00:03:42

you all to a brilliant colleague who I have been working with for.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:47

A number of years on a research project, we're gonna get into the

Russ Haworth: 00:03:52

detail of the research project over the course of this series of the show.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:57

Um, but it is my absolute pleasure, firstly, to introduce you to Dr.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:01

Jamie Wener Jamie, welcome to the show.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:03

So good to be.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:05

And obviously we've been working together for a little while.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:09

So I know, um, a little bit about you and, and your history.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:14

Um, but for those in the audience who, um, haven't had the, uh, pleasure of,

Russ Haworth: 00:04:18

of working with you, can you give us an introduction to who you are, what

Russ Haworth: 00:04:23

you do, how you came to be doing it.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:25

I know you've had a, a variety and, and depth of experience in, in the world.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:29

You are working.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:30

It'd be great for our audience to understand.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:33

A little bit about that.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:34

So thank you, Russ.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:35

Um, we've you probably know a lot about my story, but

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:40

let me share for the audience.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:42

mentioned the research project that we've been working on and the way I look at

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:48

it, without my knowing it, that research project started, you know, when I was

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:53

growing up, because when I was growing up, I was the, um, son of a rabbi, um, who

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:01

was very prominent in the community, who.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:05

Helped, the community accomplish a lot of great things.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:10

and I kept, constantly got, kept getting asked the question.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:13

So what is it like being a rabbis kid?

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:18

And at the time I kept just wanting to be a normal kid.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:22

I didn't, you know, I didn't particularly wanna be rabbi's kid was not a big deal.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:28

but it profoundly affected my life you know, it, it, it, it, it affected

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:34

the search for what I wanted to do.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:37

at some point I really began to think about, did I wanna

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:43

become around by myself?

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:46

And having grown up in a bubble where everybody was aware of who I was and

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:53

what I was doing, it occurred to me that there were things that I liked about what

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:00

being a rabbi would be, but I needed to find a different path One of my first

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:07

awarenesses is that I always really like listening to people's stories.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:13

And I seem to feel that I had an unusual knack for being able to

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:19

understand the stories, to look a little bit under the surface.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:26

so, um, somewhere around the age of 30, after having tried a bunch of

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:30

other things, I went back to school.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:34

Um, to get my doctorate in psychology.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:38

ironically, my father passed away that year.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:42

were 2000 people at the funeral.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:44

It was a reminder of how prominent my father was.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:49

Um, I built a career of doing a variety of things, so I had a private care practice.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:56

I worked at cook county jail.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:59

Um, I worked with , victims, and, somewhere at one point I realized

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:07

that, um, the jail was really impacting me and I decided I needed to find a

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:13

more gentrified, world to work in.

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:17

My wife, Carolyn came from, um, a business owning family and her mom and

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:24

dad passed 35 days away from each other.

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:28

And we became aware that, um, families in business have great opportunities,

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:40

but there's also a lot of stuff that goes on under the surface.

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:44

And we founded a, a business called inheriting wisdom that originally

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:49

started out to help Carolyn and me make sure that our family got

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:55

along and worked well together.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:00

As I continue to do that work, I began to realize that those who grow

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:05

up in the families, we were working with have a unique set of challenges.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:11

Which led to the research project was that you and I have been working

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:17

on for at least a day or two, I think it's closer to five years.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:23

And, um, and it's probably been the most

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:26

exciting experience of my life.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:28

Yeah, and I echo that and we'll get into the.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:34

Sort of detail of, of the findings of the, um,

Russ Haworth: 00:08:37

project in the preview episode for this series?

Russ Haworth: 00:08:41

I have, um, highlighted

Russ Haworth: 00:08:43

that, uh, obviously we interviewed

Russ Haworth: 00:08:45

rising gen family members from across the globe by explain the story of how

Russ Haworth: 00:08:50

we, uh, met and got, got introduced by our

Russ Haworth: 00:08:52

mutual friend.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:53

Um, Judy.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:55

But I'm, I'm interested.

Russ Haworth: 00:08:57

I'm I'm not actually asked, um, this question, um, directly

Russ Haworth: 00:09:01

before or in, in a time we've worked together, but

Russ Haworth: 00:09:05

what was it that inspired you to start the research now?

Russ Haworth: 00:09:10

Was there something that happened where you thought, actually this is

Russ Haworth: 00:09:13

a, I'm at a point in my life where I

Russ Haworth: 00:09:15

want to.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:16

To

Russ Haworth: 00:09:16

go into that research side of things.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:19

And I think it's worth noting when we started the project, we

Russ Haworth: 00:09:21

didn't have the academic research

Russ Haworth: 00:09:23

team that, that we kind of, um, picked up along, along the way.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:28

So it was, it was a personal project, very personal project at that time.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:32

What.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:33

We've heard about the fact that you, you grew up in this environment.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:37

So you understand the experience

Russ Haworth: 00:09:39

that people have had and, and you were seeing it in the families, but was

Russ Haworth: 00:09:42

there a particular moment that inspired the desire to, to go out and speak

Russ Haworth: 00:09:46

to rising gen to hear their stories?

Jamie Weiner: 00:09:50

Absolutely.

Jamie Weiner: 00:09:51

Um, it really was inspired

Jamie Weiner: 00:09:55

by, um, a conversation with somebody.

Jamie Weiner: 00:09:59

, and we were talking about, , different ways to, to, to build

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:03

the business and inherit new wisdom that we were working on.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:07

and he began to talk about his experience working with, um, substantial families

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:14

and about all of the concerns that, um, parents have, but even more so

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:23

about the struggle that he experienced.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:26

Of people who grew up in those families.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:30

And, it was a realization, it was like kind of an aha moment.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:35

Cause I realized that with all the that's said about the rising

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:39

gen NextGen, even prominence.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:44

Most of it is focused on what's the role of gonna be in a business.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:50

How are they gonna handle money?

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:52

It's it's all these other topics.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:55

And that I was not aware of anybody who had asked them what growing up was like,

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:01

which, you know, led to the question.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:05

What's it like to grow up in the lamb of giants?

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:09

Which, you know, as well as I do, nobody's, you know, came back

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:12

and said, what are you talking about immediately began to talk

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:16

about the giants of their lives.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:20

You grew up in that environment and you remember kids asking

Russ Haworth: 00:11:24

you, what's it like to be a rabbi's kid.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:28

And did, did that feel isolating for you, in which case did the research kind

Russ Haworth: 00:11:34

of think actually there's other people out there that are experiencing this and

Russ Haworth: 00:11:38

that's kind of a, a motivation behind it.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:40

Were you hoping to find.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:42

that as a commonality with, with regards to, um, the people that we

Russ Haworth: 00:11:47

spoke to during the research project, what, what was it you were looking

Russ Haworth: 00:11:50

to kind of discover through the, the process that we went through.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:54

You know, it's funny that you talk about it that way, because

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:59

when we started, my first awareness was not the connection between the

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:04

prominence of my father and the people that we were interviewing.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:09

It was.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:11

It was really a curiosity, um, to hear the, the stories.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:19

Um, I think there, even by the question, what is it like growing up

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:24

in the land and giants, there was some anticipation that I would discover

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:31

challenges that nobody else talks about.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:35

And I think I was after trying to see.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:39

If there was a consistent pattern to those challenges, um, you mentioned

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:46

the word isolation and I think almost, and correct me if I'm wrong.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:53

I think almost everyone we talked about talked about their struggle

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:00

is something that they didn't share publicly that, um, In many cases.

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:08

At some point they did ask, ask for some help, um, because they were struggling

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:14

with, to be able to define themselves.

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:18

I think my career or already by that point had been about with different

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:24

populations, figuring out, um, what causes some people to rise above.

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:32

As opposed to the, the larger number of people who get stuck.

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:37

And, um, I think that was true by private practice.

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:41

It certainly was true at the jail.

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:43

It's clearly true with people who had, suffered, um, severe losses.

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:50

and so, there's kind of a universal

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:53

theme.

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:54

That comes through the, the

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:56

research That was colored by the

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:58

fact that these were fam

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:00

were,

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:00

were rising gen

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:02

members coming from prominent families.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:05

just on the terminology that we are using.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:09

with the research.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:10

Um, we we'll talk about the, um, book as well.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:14

You've written a book.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:16

Um, there'll be links to, uh, people to head over to Amazon or bonds

Russ Haworth: 00:14:20

and noble in, in the show notes

Russ Haworth: 00:14:21

for, for them to, to purchase a, a copy of the book.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:24

But, but in terms of the terminology that we're using in the conversation

Russ Haworth: 00:14:28

today, there there's the term prominence that we've used a few times.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:33

And the term rising generation.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:34

Now, a lot of people may be more familiar with next generation as a

Russ Haworth: 00:14:38

term for kind of labeling or, um, categorizing certain people within,

Russ Haworth: 00:14:47

um, certainly within family, enterprise and family businesses, the worlds we

Russ Haworth: 00:14:51

work in, but, but I think it would be worth spending a little bit of time.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:56

Outlining and defining what, what we mean by the term prominence, particularly

Russ Haworth: 00:15:01

in, in nature to, um, the experience of growing up in the land of giants.

Russ Haworth: 00:15:07

Can you help the audience to, um, kind of understand what that term prominence means

Russ Haworth: 00:15:13

in, in this context?

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:14

It's a fantastic subject to explore.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:18

I think, as we did the research.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:23

Everybody immediately rushes to think about big names.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:27

And they think about particularly people that have wealth and they think

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:32

about people that have big businesses.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:35

they think about, you know, all of this.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:40

Prominence having some connection with the passage passing down

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:46

of some kind of inheritance.

Russ Haworth: 00:15:50

mm-hmm

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:51

I think what we discovered is that if you put all that stuff over

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:55

to the side for a minute, that prominence takes on a, a broader meaning because.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:03

And I joke, and I just wrote a blog about, um, prominence and I talk about,

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:09

um, the moment of notoriety when my, uh, my family would watch the news.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:16

When I worked at cook county jail and we would see, uh, a criminal

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:20

up here and I know the new, the next day I would, uh, meet him ATCL

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:24

county jail, or two days later.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:27

And did he have prominence.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:30

But clearly, if you grow up in a, um, clergy family, if you grow up in a small

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:41

community in, um, in the center of the community is a store that everybody goes

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:48

to.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:49

That's an

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:50

element

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:50

of prominence because in some ways, um, you stand above and you're looked up to.

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:00

And, um, and I think that's a much better, a much broader categor of people,

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:07

than most people imagine because, it

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:10

goes, goes far beyond the 1% or the 5% who, who,

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:15

hold wealth.

Russ Haworth: 00:17:17

what what's relevant here as well is

Russ Haworth: 00:17:19

although you and I both work

Russ Haworth: 00:17:21

in the family wealth family

Russ Haworth: 00:17:23

business, family enterprise space is that

Russ Haworth: 00:17:27

We spoke to people who had not come from a family

Russ Haworth: 00:17:31

business background.

Russ Haworth: 00:17:32

As you say, we, we spoke to people whose parents had a prominent role

Russ Haworth: 00:17:36

in, um, their community, where there was perhaps more of a focus on achievement

Russ Haworth: 00:17:42

rather than what, what you would see as the wealth of, of the family.

Russ Haworth: 00:17:47

And, and that, that was really interesting for me hearing the stories of people that

Russ Haworth: 00:17:52

the giants that were in people's lives.

Russ Haworth: 00:17:55

Weren't just necessarily the people themselves, but also the achievements

Russ Haworth: 00:17:59

that those people attained summit was very physical, very visible legacies

Russ Haworth: 00:18:06

that had been left and the impact that growing up, you know, seeing that

Russ Haworth: 00:18:11

on a daily basis has on, on people.

Russ Haworth: 00:18:16

And so I really like the term prominence as opposed to say wealth where it,

Russ Haworth: 00:18:22

again, it makes it more about the.

Russ Haworth: 00:18:25

The money side and more about the, how to pass, inherited how to become a

Russ Haworth: 00:18:29

good inherit, all that kind of stuff.

Russ Haworth: 00:18:30

Whereas what we were talking about and what we were speaking to, those that,

Russ Haworth: 00:18:34

um, we were fortunate enough to speak to is what was your experience like?

Russ Haworth: 00:18:39

What was it like for you growing up around this significance, this prominence,

Russ Haworth: 00:18:45

and although people came from different backgrounds and, and had different

Russ Haworth: 00:18:49

levels of prominence in their life.

Russ Haworth: 00:18:52

The stories that we heard.

Russ Haworth: 00:18:54

I remember more often than not, we would we'd do the, the interviews via zoom.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:00

And we'd sort of say thank you to, to the person we've been speaking to.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:04

And we, they would hang up and leave and then there'd be the, you and

Russ Haworth: 00:19:07

I left in the, the virtual room.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:10

Uh, and we'd just kind of sit there and.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:12

So stare at each other for a little bit kind of taking it

Russ Haworth: 00:19:14

all in letting it sink in.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:16

And the similarities that came across irrespective of, of a lot of

Russ Haworth: 00:19:20

the backgrounds of these people was striking for me and would get into the

Russ Haworth: 00:19:25

details of what the research found.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:27

But was there a highlight for you in terms of the.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:31

The experience that we shared together of, of interviewing, um, everybody.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:36

And, and we got to interview them twice.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:38

That those moments for me really stood out and nothing really happened.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:42

Cuz we

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:46

You know, Russ, I always felt the, moment you hit the, button to

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:50

record that we were entering into the a private world that was, um, unique

Jamie Weiner: 00:19:59

and different, and that we never knew exactly what we were gonna get in

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:04

terms of what would be shared with us.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:08

I was always surprised.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:12

With each interview that each one of the people we talked to, they

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:17

wanted to tell their stories.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:19

They, they were hungry to tell their stories.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:23

And that range from, you know, we interviewed somebody from a very

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:28

small community, , where, , her parent was a prominent figure.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:36

, in the community and she was, she was surprised that people were

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:42

curious about what a S a T score was.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:46

I mean, it was just, and then we talked to.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:49

, somebody like Henry

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:51

Kaiser, who has given us permission to

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:53

tell a story who came from one of the, you know, with the

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:57

grandson of one of what the wealthiest families in the,

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:59

world.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:01

And each time on the, surface, it, appeared that the stories were different,

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:06

but we kept finding

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:10

that there was some challenge, some struggle that felt

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:14

bigger.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:15

and more universal than, um, what the individual stories appeared to be.

Russ Haworth: 00:21:22

a and again, the, the, the range of, ages of the people that we

Russ Haworth: 00:21:27

spoke to Varied as well.

Russ Haworth: 00:21:30

The, the, the, it, wasn't kind of pigeonholed into this.

Russ Haworth: 00:21:33

You have to be under 35 or under 40 or under 41 or whatever

Russ Haworth: 00:21:37

the, the bracket is for kind of

Russ Haworth: 00:21:39

next gen, which is partly the

Russ Haworth: 00:21:42

reason I think why we use the term rising

Russ Haworth: 00:21:44

gen.

Russ Haworth: 00:21:44

But I think there's much more

Russ Haworth: 00:21:46

of a.

Russ Haworth: 00:21:47

Detailed

Russ Haworth: 00:21:48

and meaningful definition for rising generation.

Russ Haworth: 00:21:52

That's very, very relevant to the people that will be listening to, um, this

Russ Haworth: 00:21:57

conversation, but also to those that will then go on to, to read and enjoy the book.

Russ Haworth: 00:22:02

So I, I think if we can, or if you can, um, define what we meant by

Russ Haworth: 00:22:09

rising gen or rising generation, um, it, it would be really useful.

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:14

so the term that used to be used commonly was next generation.

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:21

and it was really used in families who either have businesses or wealth

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:26

and are concerned that, um, the generation come up coming up is

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:34

not gonna be able to, um, maintain the goose that lay the golden egg.

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:42

And so they're very focused on, are they prepared?

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:46

it was really, um, ju who, um, was written a Bo bell family wealth who coined the

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:54

izing gen because he was really paying attention to the struggle of a generation.

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:05

I think we pushed the envelope a little bit further.

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:08

Henry Kaiser was 75 years old when we talked to.

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:12

And he was looking back in reflection.

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:17

obviously at 75, you see the stories different than when you're 35 and you're

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:23

living them, but it was very valuable cuz we had several examples of that

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:30

to hear the stories in retrospect You know, he was about to get married.

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:36

And he shared a moment with us where he had his last meeting with his grandfather

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:42

in the corporate head of, at, at quarters of Kaiser industries and was hoping

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:48

that at that moment, his grandfather would give him some blessings, some,

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:54

some place, you know, that in the

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:57

business And it was, we learned a lot just by knowing that he left never

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:04

having that moment, that conversation.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:08

And that was more typical than unusual.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:11

And,

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:12

I think we both got excited

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:14

by those

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:14

kinds of

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:15

experiences.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:16

Is.

Russ Haworth: 00:24:17

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:24:17

And I think, um, again, some of, some of the moments that stood out was that

Russ Haworth: 00:24:24

we were able to.

Russ Haworth: 00:24:26

Through the interviews that we'd done.

Russ Haworth: 00:24:27

Obviously, we, we were

Russ Haworth: 00:24:28

listening intently in terms of the people's stories that we spoke with

Russ Haworth: 00:24:34

and we were able to spot similarities

Russ Haworth: 00:24:37

And,

Russ Haworth: 00:24:37

commonalities through people's experiences.

Russ Haworth: 00:24:40

And,

Russ Haworth: 00:24:41

I think just having the ability to share the

Russ Haworth: 00:24:44

experiences, you mentioned that, that it, there, there was something.

Russ Haworth: 00:24:48

Um, you know, very special about being able to share it with people because

Russ Haworth: 00:24:52

they hadn't had the ability or the outlet to share their stories before.

Russ Haworth: 00:24:58

And, and we were able to spot these patterns and commonalities, and then

Russ Haworth: 00:25:03

we were fortunate enough to be joined on our, our journey, um, by fantastic

Russ Haworth: 00:25:10

research team who were then able to.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:14

Kind of translate what we'd captured in words into, to a form of data, to, to

Russ Haworth: 00:25:19

be able to verify that there were these patterns and that there were elements

Russ Haworth: 00:25:24

of people's stories, irrespective of gender age, um, where they grew up

Russ Haworth: 00:25:30

in the world, that the commonality of growing up around prominence meant that

Russ Haworth: 00:25:33

the experience was, um, a similar one.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:37

we're gonna go into much more detail around the, the research in future

Russ Haworth: 00:25:41

episodes, but for, for the benefit of the audience who are, um, hanging on

Russ Haworth: 00:25:46

the edge of their seats, trying to, uh, um, find out what the research found

Russ Haworth: 00:25:51

can, can we give them an overview of what it was that the research found?

Russ Haworth: 00:25:56

What were the commonalities?

Russ Haworth: 00:25:58

What.

Russ Haworth: 00:25:59

I mean, the book is called the quest for legitimacy, perhaps

Russ Haworth: 00:26:02

giving a, uh, some background on why that's the title as well.

Russ Haworth: 00:26:06

I think would be really interesting.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:09

So I, I think for both of us, the, the.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:14

The struggle and the desire to get beyond our biases and maybe the biases we think

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:20

were there by other people was constantly there, cause truly wanted to hear.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:30

And I think we both intuitively knew the more the interviews went on,

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:40

that we were observing PA patterns.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:43

There was something consistent, even though the stories appeared to vary.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:50

And the beauty of the, um, having a research team, having somebody who had

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:59

never met any of these people, read the transcripts and of a systematic

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:04

way to look at them, open up the possibility for them to discover.

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:13

that there's a path and that there are phases and they're not linear phases to

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:22

discover that everybody we interviewed had, which we'll talk about more too

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:28

later, breaking moments, moments when something changed in their lives,

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:34

where they felt be Twix in between.

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:38

And that those were difficult.

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:43

But they are, were also potential opportunities to begin to sort out their

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:47

lives and figure out who they truly were.

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:52

So between the breaking moments, the idea that there were four steps,

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:59

four phases in the quest in the idea that by going through the quest.

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:07

It was truly possible to take ownership and responsibility for your life.

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:13

I think that was the beauty of the research.

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:17

You know, we truly discovered that one of the phases was a period of exploration.

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:24

and I think that was the beauty of being part of a research practitioner team in

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:30

being

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:30

able to discover, um, the depth that's there in the interviews that we did.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:39

Yeah, I agree.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:40

And, uh, I know in our next episode, we are going to, to delve

Russ Haworth: 00:28:46

into the detail around the four phases of the quest.

Russ Haworth: 00:28:52

C could you just give, , the audience,

Russ Haworth: 00:28:55

, , an overview of what those four phases

Russ Haworth: 00:28:59

around.

Russ Haworth: 00:29:00

What each, um, is gonna entail.

Russ Haworth: 00:29:02

We're we're gonna dive into that in a much more detail in our

Russ Haworth: 00:29:05

next discussion.

Russ Haworth: 00:29:07

Um, but to, to give the

Russ Haworth: 00:29:08

overview, um, of that, to, to kind of tie up this, uh, episode,

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:12

I'd love to.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:13

So the first phase is a period of

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:16

awareness.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:18

Um, the one that I always love is, um, somebody who grew up in a, uh, Family.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:24

That was part of the diamond industry.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:26

And she learned how to count by counting diamonds.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:30

And it took, you know, took a little while when she went to school and realized

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:34

that not everybody counts diamonds, but that was a moment of awareness for her.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:41

As we grow up a little bit further, we have all the experiences that have been

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:47

part of the world we've been born into.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:51

But we begin to go out into the world and we begin to experience a tug

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:57

of war between what we've learned from our family and what we're

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:01

learning from the outside world.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:03

And at first we may bring things back and they may think, you know, parents

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:07

may think it's very cute, but a little bit later, or may not be so cute.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:13

Um, it's followed by a period of exploration where we.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:18

Are further and our family's much more internalized and it's really the period

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:23

of us sorting out who we are from all the worlds that we've been exposed to.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:30

And it leads to the fourth phase, which is when we begin to feel that it's sorted

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:36

out and that we can take some control and have some own ownership and define who we

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:43

wanna be, what impact we want 'em to have.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:46

And it's truly allows us to have a much more powerful sense,

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:52

uh, uh, born out a struggle to, um, who we are And um, what we want to become.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:02

And I'm really looking forward to our next conversation where

Russ Haworth: 00:31:06

we will delve a little bit deeper into each of those, uh, four phases.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:12

But.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:12

Um, I think that's a good point to bring our, uh, introductory conversation

Russ Haworth: 00:31:17

to, to the research, to a close.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:19

Um, thank you very much for joining us.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:22

Um, and, uh, look forward to speaking to you again on the next episode.