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How To Explain Your Product to Hook Your Ideal Customer - Mitch Solway
Episode 11 • 12th December 2023 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
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Your GTM message has an incredibly difficult task: to speak to the people who will love your product and take them from a place of disinterest and zero context to a place of understanding and excitement.

When done well, it’s pure magic.

I think that every GTM and ops professional should be familiar with how to do this, and so I asked my old boss, Mitch Solway, to join me for a masterclass in messaging.

Thanks to Our Sponsor

Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.

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About Today's Guest

Mitch Solway is a 5x VP of Marketing who has led teams at Lavalife, Freshbooks, Vidyard, and Clearfit, among others. Today he works as a Fractional CMO for startups.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchsolway/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:28] - How Mitch defines the hierarchy of messaging. He starts at the end, considering the outcome he’s trying to achieve. Then you can reverse engineer what you need to get to that point, starting with positioning, then copy, then messaging.
  • [02:55] - The end result for Mitch is two stories: one broad, one narrow. The narrow story is targeted at your “Can’t Miss Customer.” This is your ideal customer. You need to understand everything about this person. Mitch calls this “Is this you?” marketing. You tell the prospect a story, and if you know them really well, your Can’t-Miss Customer will identify themselves in your message. Focusing on the person and their world vs. on your product.
  • [04:55] - We don’t tell our customer’s story enough. We need to realize we are only 5% of the customer’s world - important to understand the other 95%. Interview your best customers, then translate those stories back to other prospects.
  • [07:33] - The broad story. This is when you’re introducing something new to the market. You need to educate people to create a vision of an “inevitable future.” Getting the market to see the world the way you see it. Example of doing this with Vidyard using influencers to educate the market with a very low budget.
  • [13:26] - Creating the “narrow story” for Vidyard. The litmus test for the narrow story is, can you get the person from no context to being excited in three questions. Mitch calls this the “context rollercoaster.” Examples of how this works in practices. If you can do this, you’ve found the “nerve center” that you need to touch on.
  • [18:17] - Your product isn’t that important to the customer, most likely. Even if they use it, it’s just a fraction of their world. You need to show them that you understand their pain to spark interest. Example of why this is important in outbound. Example of how Mitch tweaked the messaging at Clearfit to better align with customer truths and how that message was conveyed in radio ads.
  • [21:52] - Example of competing with ZipRecruiter on the radio. They had raised funds and were outspending 20:1. Mitch tweaked the messaging to turn the competitor’s strength into a weakness.
  • [23:57] - Process for creating a messaging framework from scratch. Start with internal interviews with key stakeholders. 90% of that process is about internal alignment. For positioning, he uses April Dunford’s framework and conducts a workshop with key stakeholders. Prior to that workshop he interviews existing customers that the company wants to get more of. Example of doing this with Ourboro,
  • [29:56] - Example of how customer insights also infuse the tone, language, visuals, and emotion of communication.
  • [31:36] - Collecting customer insights is a deep process of understanding psychology and emotions. You need a special type of brain to conduct that research - not everyone can do it. It’s a superpower. But those who are expert in it can help the rest of the company receive those insights. Example of how we brought in a customer each month at Clearfit and the impact this had on the company.
  • [33:59] - Discussion of interest vs. impact as work motivation. How to cultivate an impact orientation.

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Transcripts

Justin Norris:

In revenue operations, there's a common expression about

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delivering the right message to

the right person at the right

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time in the right channel.

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as operators, we tend to focus a

lot on the systems process and data

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parts needed to accomplish that.

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So, The message part often seems

like . Somebody else's problem.

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But I think that we don't pay enough

attention here because message is what's

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being delivered that's make or break.

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And if we don't understand our

prospect or if we're saying

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something they find confusing or

that they think is irrelevant,

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nothing we're doing is gonna work.

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We're wasting a lot of time.

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So I brought on the smartest guy I know

when it comes to go-to market messaging.

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Mitch Solway.

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He has been a five time VP of

marketing at companies like Lavalife,

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FreshBooks, ard, clear Fit, where

Mitch and I actually worked together.

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He was my boss for a couple of years

today he runs Think, Mitch, think

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as a fractional c m o for startups.

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So we're gonna see some

of that thinking today.

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Mitch, welcome to the show.

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Mitch Solway: Hey, thanks

Justin and no pressure there.

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Justin Norris: pressure at all, Mitch.

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I'm so glad.

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Uh, could talk 'cause

you're someone that I.

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have turned to throughout the years, both

when we worked together and since, and I

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always just love, ideas in front of you

because you really do think it through.

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You challenge things and I've

loved just watching how your mind

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works through these problems.

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So Excited to have this conversation.

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And I guess we'll, start

it out an easy one.

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I like to kind of go back to first

principles, 'cause people use a lot

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of these terms, like my messaging,

my positioning, my copy, my tagline,

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and it's all sort of confusing.

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So I'm just wondering for you,

like, hierarchy of, of message

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and how does it get expressed

through all those different forms?

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Mitch Solway: Yeah, that's a

great question and, funny 'cause.

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I really specifically try to avoid

getting in conversations that are

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defining all those things, cause you

can sometimes get lost in their purpose.

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So, you know, I, been thinking

about this and, and, Having done

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this enough times, where I really

start is I start at the end.

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So what's the outcome that I'm trying

to produce that could generate success?.

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And then once you kind of know

your ultimate goal is and what

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something should look like and

feel like when it's successful.

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Then you kind of reverse engineer,

okay, well what are all the things

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in my way of getting to that thing?

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And that's where things like

your copy and your messaging

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and positioning play key roles.

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you start at the beginning of

saying, well, let's, go the

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process, starting with positioning.

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'cause usually goes positioning

and then messaging and copy.

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you still might not know, like

you're at the end, like that right?

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Is that even any good So having a good

idea of what a good result looks like,

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then you can go back and go through

the process to try and get there

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and evaluate has my positioning done

what it needs to do to get me point?

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And then now I can deal the messaging

and you're continually evaluating

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those things against end result.

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And for me, the end result is, there's

two stories because I work with early

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stage companies and a lot of the

companies I've worked with, Are doing

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something and different in the market.

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So I'll call one the narrow story.

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the narrow story is like I draw the

circle, I say there's your can't miss

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customer, so we have to know who's that?

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' cause you're building a product and

work with a founder and got this passion

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and energy and it's usually not about,

I just wanna make a bazillion dollars.

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They're really trying to solve a problem.

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if we get to the heart of, well, who's

problem we're really trying to solve

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where if that person Came in and bought

and used our product, they would be so

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happy, And then for us, we would be so

happy because they're gonna love our

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product and tell everyone about it.

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And financially they're gonna pay us for

that 'cause it delivers so much value.

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that's end state from an acquisition

point is I'm in the business

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a, attracting the best possible

people to my product and service.

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And then in order to do that, I have to

understand everything about this person.

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so I call this s S U Marketing

it's not saying this is who

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we are and this is what we do.

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But I need to say, you know, is this you?

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I'm gonna tell you a story.

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I'm gonna describe a scenario, and If

I know you really well and I know your

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world, I'm gonna describe you to a team

and say, look, if this is you and you're

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struggling with these things and this

is driving you nuts, and you really

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wanna find the answer to something,

we can help and a good, and copy.

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We'll do a really strong job at helping

your ideal customer that can't miss

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customer, identify themselves your

message and go, oh my God, this is me.

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that's the narrow messaging

outcome that I want.

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So,

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Justin Norris: I just wanna comment

on one that, stuck out to me.

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'cause it's really obvious when you

hear it, but not something I've seen

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in practice, I think as much it should

be, which is the focus on the person

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and like, what is that person's world?

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are they experiencing that

you can solve for them?

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And just going deep there and it's like,

yeah, of course, but everybody starts.

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talking about themselves, like our

product, blah, blah, blah, like, you

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know, ai, ab blah, blah, blah, blah.

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Like, it's all that.

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Mitch Solway: A great point, is we

don't tell our customer's story enough.

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I do consumer research really

pivotal and when I go and I start

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an interview and I reach out to

customers, set context for them and I

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say, listen, you know, if I'm working

at Clear Fit, call up our customers.

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I said, , look, you know,

I work at Clear Fit.

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FITT is a hundred percent of my world.

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It's what I think about all day, you're a

customer and fit probably only represents,

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you know, like 5% of your world.

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So I don't really want to talk

all that much about Clear fitt.

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I wanna know like the 95%.

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Of the rest of your world.

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And then I wanna know how

our 5% fits into that.

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you know, you start the question and

you, you have to start being curious,

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curious about how you fit into the world.

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'cause sometimes you think you're

solving the most important problem

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and you realize like, oh my God, like.

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we're so relatively unimportant in

their day to day, but we do serve a job.

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Like they've got really

important things to do.

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So if we can save you a little

bit of time, that helps you do

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some really important things.

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Or sometimes, like, this is like the

most brutal problem that they need to

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solve in yeah, sure, this is a 5% of

my time or 10% of my time, but like

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when I'm doing this, it's so important.

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And so it's really good framing.

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I would encourage people, if you really

want to get good consumer insights and

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you really wanna be able to reflect those

stories, is when you talk to customers

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and you talk to obviously customers that

represent the kinds of people you want to

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bring more of job is to hear their story.

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and then what you do is once they

tell you their story, you know,

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Why are you in this company?

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Why are you in this job?

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You know, what keeps you up at night?

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What are your goals for the year?

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And then they'll naturally tell

you and how they found your

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product and what the problem was.

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Like what, what, you know, what

was the one thing that happened

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that you decided, oh my God, I need

to get something like clear fit.

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Right.

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they'll probably tell you, then your

job as a marketer is like, how do I

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translate You know, these customer

stories back to the rest of the market.

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'cause I already know these are,

they're super happy customers that

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fan their way into our product.

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They love what we do.

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we're serving them really well.

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It's like, oh my God, I just take

that gold and throw it out to the

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market and say, well is this you?

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You know, is this a similar story?

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Are you experiencing a similar thing?

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' cause I can confidently.

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Tell that story 'cause I've heard

it a million times, and I can

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confidently make you a promise that I

can solve that problem and have such

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a high confidence that when you use

the product you're gonna be happy.

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Justin Norris: I always love when I

hear you express these things 'cause

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it all just like, seems really simple.

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Like, simplicity is one

of your hallmarks for me.

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I'm like, oh yeah, it's just that easy.

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Like, it's never that easy when

I've participated in these things.

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But to hear you talk about

it, it's, it's super easy.

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What was the second story

that you wanted to share?

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Mitch Solway: So there's a second

story that, brands need to tell.

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I call this the, wide

story or the broad story.

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you don't have to be as laser focused,

uh, of your, your targeting on this one.

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A lot of the times if you're introducing

something that's relatively new to

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the market, one of the worst things.

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To get people to engage with your product

is to tell them about your product.

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And you can also do a

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mitch-solway_1_10-19-2023_100148: really

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Mitch Solway: good job of telling

them, you know, is this you,

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but there's this higher order.

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'cause you're also trying to build

the category and have to start.

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Educating people about your business

and creating context for them to start

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to think about their work in a way.

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but maybe they haven't thought

about your solution at all.

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know, I'll give you a couple examples.

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So ard, came up with this concept

as we're a video marketing platform

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and, meant nothing like there's no

narrow anything 'cause no one's Google

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searching for video marketing platforms.

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So we had to tell a bigger story to

get people to start to think about.

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And I said, how do we get people to think

about the world the same way that we do?

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And we can lead their thinking.

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So we, started to create this narrative

content is going to be massive in

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the worlds of content marketing.

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And this is sort of, uh, you know,

let's say easily over 15 years ago when

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content marketing was really the hot

thing and it just started going, video

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was still very expensive to produce.

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But we wanted to create the

belief and what I call, it's

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the inevitable future, right?

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Inevitably.

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Look, here's what's happening.

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Video viewership is booming and

you can collect all the data.

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So here's the story.

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It's like, here's what we know today.

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More and more, everyone's watching video.

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It represents probably 10 to 20% of

everybody's content strategy, but in five

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years, it's probably gonna represent 80%.

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People's content strategy and

without a way to properly analyze

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and understand how your video

content is translating into sales

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and revenue, you're gonna be screwed.

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Right?

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Like you're gonna, it's be really

important, know, we can track and

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measure our blogs and our SS e o

and all the other content and our

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eBooks and whatever, but no one knew

how to track and measure content.

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And so we needed to tell a

story of the inevitable futures.

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The future is so much of your content

is gonna be on video, and if you're not

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able to measure and track how that video

content is driving sales and revenue,

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you're just gonna be in a tough place.

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So that's why we created video An

interesting thing about ARD is had a very

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low budget when I started, we had like

$5,000 a month to spend on marketing.

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So the other thing, telling

your broader story that I would

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encourage people to think about

is where have you got leverage?

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We knew that, content marketing

thought leaders, well ahead

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of the rest of the market.

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And we had no audience at ard.

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We had no credibility.

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the CEOs and the co-founders, they've been

doing like video or, video, storytelling

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and video ads for, for companies.

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but they had no credibility

in the B two B world yet.

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we did was, was a content marketing

conference going on in New York City I

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went there with our videographer and,

were three keynotes that were given.

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one was Pulizzi, one was Den

and one was Anne Handley.

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And these at the time, I mean

Ann, they, they're all still

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big in content marketing.

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These are legends in content marketing.

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And then this was the

peak of their popularity.

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I didn't know them.

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They didn't know us, but we went there

with our camera and a microphone and as

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soon as they were done, their keynote,

they would walk out and I'd be there

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in the room outside of the auditorium

I'd walk up to them and I'd say, you

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know, Hey, I'm Mitch and I work for

this company, ard, you don't know me.

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You don't even know what we do, but

we're this video marketing platform.

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it be okay if we just did an

interview with you for our blog?

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And they all said yes.

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And Anne was really funny 'cause she

said, no, this is really insulting.

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I'm like, oh my God.

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And she's, and then she smiled and

I knew she was just pulling my leg.

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I asked them three questions in the

interview first question was, what's

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the future of content marketing?

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And they would tell me, like, they

just drop all these truth bombs, the

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vision of where things were going.

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And then my next question was,

where does video fit into that?

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Right.

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And of course, oh my God, video is like

gonna be so important, blah, blah, blah,

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blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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And then the last question is,

what are some practical tactical

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tips that people can use to, to

think about their video strategy?

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And we did was we had like the

world's worst blog It was terrible.

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But we had a vision of, we wanted to

create leading blog and destination for

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people to learn about video marketing.

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so what we now had is of the major

influencers had told a story that the

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future of marketing looks like this.

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And video has a huge role on that.

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And we put these videos together and

they all had massive social followings.

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so, yeah, we could post it to our social

feed, but they all posted it to their

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own social feeds got, tons of coverage.

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And we got so much inbound traffic

just sharing those posts that, had

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instant credibility knew who ARD

was, but these three influencers

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were talking to us we weren't even

telling you that video was important.

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You had the, industry leaders

telling you that video was important.

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So when businesses think about, call the

broad story or the wide story, or the

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narrow story, the narrow story is really

important and it's really, although it's

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getting more difficult to measure, it's

where marketers spend most of the time.

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But the real magic is in the broad story

where you're really trying to influence

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the market to start to see the world

and the future the way you see it.

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And that's really bigger context setting.

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did that at ard.

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Very much the same thing at Lab Life

where we had to make online dating, you

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from something you didn't talk about

to something that you could talk about.

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Justin Norris: marketers today, they're

so used to, multimillion dollar budgets,

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big spend on channels to think about,

you one person, a videographer, a

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conference, and how you were able

to use leverage to convert that into

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something really big is an awesome story.

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Mitch Solway: questions like, you know,

we set them up so they could look good.

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I didn't say, you know, why should

someone use a video marketing platform?

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Right.

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just got them to validate that video

is gonna be so, so important, which

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is what we needed people to believe.

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And So we wanna start them

thinking about, holy crap, like

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this is gonna be really important.

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Justin Norris: and touching on ARD

again, 'cause I remember . We used

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Vidyard actually really early on, I

think maybe even before you joined

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or just when you joined there, but

before you had come to Clear FITT

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and it was kind of SS m B oriented in

terms of its positioning and then by

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the time you had left, it had changed.

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It was now much more focused and people

who are using marketing automation

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systems, which seems to tie right

into what you're saying around you

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wanna use video, but you need to be

able to track it and prove its r o I.

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Again, sales and revenue.

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was that you leading that process,

what was like the key insight

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that led you down that path?

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Mitch Solway: so if we

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Justin Norris: I.

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Mitch Solway: back to

the narrow story on ard.

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So for me, get to that end point

where I can say, is this you, the

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litmus test is, can I get you from no

context to being excited about what

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we're doing in like three questions.

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I call it the context

rollercoaster, right?

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Because it's like if you could take

someone on a thrill ride I call it,

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you know how, you know how, and you

know how, know how this is like this,

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and you know how this is like this.

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At the very top of the curve I call,

it's the apex of context So You know,

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when we were at a conference at ard

people would come up to our booth and

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they'd say, well, what is Vidyard?

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What do you guys do?

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And I would say, well, before I tell

you that, can I ask you three questions?

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they'd go, sure.

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I'd say, you guys produce

a lot of video content?

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Oh my God.

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We produce a ton of content and like,

do you guys use marketing automation

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software like Eloqua or Marketo?

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'cause we'd integrated with these

things like, oh yeah, we use Eloqua.

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And like, do you know what the

r o i of that video content is?

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Like, oh my God, we have no idea.

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Right.

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So I could have asked that

question different ways.

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Like, you know how you're probably

spending a lot of money on video content?

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Yeah.

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And like, you know, you're using

Eloqua and Marketo of course.

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And, but you know, you have no idea

what the r o i of that video content is.

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Oh my God.

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So I'm taking you up.

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rollercoaster.

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Like, I'm setting you up to go now.

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:

They're kind of leaning in.

318

:

They're going, yeah, I do

this, and yeah, I've got that.

319

:

Yeah.

320

:

I have no idea.

321

:

What I've done is I've got them from

having no idea and not giving a crap

322

:

really about what we're, they probably

just came by to say, you know, to

323

:

be nice and say, hi, how are you?

324

:

What do you guys do now

being like, oh my God.

325

:

Yeah.

326

:

Like, tell me like, what does you

do because, it is really easy.

327

:

Say we're a video marketing

platform that lets you.

328

:

Actually take your video

viewership data and pop it into

329

:

your Marketo or Eloqua instance.

330

:

that's all we needed to say.

331

:

We didn't even need to say what

you would do with that data.

332

:

they knew, right?

333

:

And they're like, This is amazing.

334

:

And so it's the three question test.

335

:

Can you ask three questions or can you

present like, you know, how this, and

336

:

you know, how this, I mean, you can go on

forever and someone will probably explode.

337

:

Like, I like to think you're

inflating a balloon for someone.

338

:

It's like you're, they're filling

up where you've got them to the

339

:

point of like you've told them.

340

:

You, you've drilled down on those pain

points, the challenges they didn't even

341

:

know were possible to solve, to the point

where they already know kind of what

342

:

you do before you've even told them.

343

:

'cause you said, well, all these things.

344

:

that's why we created ARD

to solve all those problems.

345

:

then, then them down the ride,

which you example, example, example.

346

:

Like, here's how we do that, right?

347

:

We can pump all that data into

your Marketo, Eloqua instance.

348

:

Obviously, you can feed analytics

in terms of who's watching

349

:

your videos and for how long.

350

:

And then you can and customize all

your outbound and your follow ups or

351

:

your websites, or your sales agents

will know when they send an email to

352

:

someone with a video link, they know

which one's opened it, which one's

353

:

watched, and then so they can follow up.

354

:

And we know videos they

watched on your website.

355

:

So when you reach out to a

customer, gonna know what

356

:

products they were interested in.

357

:

Like, they knew all that 'cause they

used marketing automation tools.

358

:

Like they, they know how

to use data intelligence.

359

:

They had no intelligence on video.

360

:

So that became the our

messaging strategies.

361

:

How do we let someone know very quickly

you can go from having no information

362

:

to just getting all this data to

turn that data into better decisions

363

:

and turn that into more revenue.

364

:

Justin Norris: is kind of a superpower.

365

:

like the ability to connect someone,

take them from indifference or

366

:

perhaps even like, you know, at

a conference, you do really kind

367

:

of wanna stay away from people.

368

:

You don't want to be accosted

and drawn into these things.

369

:

So to go from that defensive posture

to bring people to a place where

370

:

they're . Actually excited about

hearing what you have to say.

371

:

It's kind of a magical thing and

372

:

Mitch Solway: Or not

373

:

Justin Norris: I, I.

374

:

Mitch Solway: questions if they

go, you do a lot of videos?

375

:

Like, well, not really.

376

:

Okay.

377

:

Well, do you use Marketo or Qua?

378

:

No.

379

:

know, so then I'll just still tell

them, oh, we're a video marketing

380

:

platform and we help companies.

381

:

I don't even tell them how it works.

382

:

We typically work with companies that are

spending a lot of money on video content,

383

:

and just have no idea what that r o I

is and they really need to understand.

384

:

this is the test.

385

:

. The questions is like a psychology

trick, and if it's not a trick, it's like

386

:

how do I get someone from no context?

387

:

To fully engage context

in three questions.

388

:

then, you know, kind of, found nerve

center, you need to touch on to get

389

:

people to want to then be in action, to

lean in and, and, start to learn more.

390

:

Then they'll go, oh my God, they'll tell

me more about this, and then we can talk

391

:

about the 53 other features that we have.

392

:

I know that those are all gonna be

gravy on top of the main core problem.

393

:

Justin Norris: one of the main things I've

been working on, my current job since I

394

:

joined 360 Learning is in outbound motion.

395

:

And you really see this so clearly in

outbound because, You are just showing

396

:

up uninvited in somebody's inbox, and

you're either gonna be spam or maybe

397

:

there's a faint glimmer of a hope

that they will see some relevance in

398

:

what you're saying and read on, and

then maybe decide give you a reply.

399

:

But me, it, it really a learning

process of, you know, your first

400

:

drafts of stuff through, at least for

me, they're very product focused, why

401

:

we're so great and all the things we

do, and then realizing, no, they need

402

:

to see themselves And what I'm saying,

or else it's completely irrelevant.

403

:

It's just noise to them.

404

:

Mitch Solway: Yeah, like who

care about what we're doing.

405

:

Right.

406

:

I know how much of my time I spend

thinking about the business that I'm

407

:

working on, which used, Marketo, right?

408

:

We use Salesforce.

409

:

I mean, how much time do I, I mean,

you spent a lot of time thinking about

410

:

them because you worked on them, right?

411

:

But.

412

:

didn't spend a lot of time thinking

about that, but we used that software.

413

:

So, know, thinking about our own

buying processes, we know we've

414

:

got a bigger job to do and when

we buy software, we buy products.

415

:

They're just a fraction of

what our world represents.

416

:

So most people don't really care

about what do, what they care is

417

:

what they need to get done and

what, they're pressured to deliver.

418

:

And Clear Fit was another good example.

419

:

We had so much fun in Clear Fit

because hiring was so painful.

420

:

before this, I was looking back at

our clear fit messaging and, were

421

:

some subtle changes that we made.

422

:

You know, at first we talked

about, it's the, fastest way to

423

:

find and hire best employees.

424

:

And after talking with customers, I

talked to a whole bunch of them and I

425

:

found out that it wasn't about hiring

the best people, lot of our customers

426

:

were trying to hire more blue collar.

427

:

Types of workers to work in their plants

and manufacturing, maybe some admin jobs.

428

:

But it wasn't necessarily, you know,

product marketers and CFOs and all that

429

:

kind of stuff, or So they were saying

like, we would hire people and they

430

:

just, they wouldn't even show up work.

431

:

I don't need them to be the best.

432

:

I just need them to show up

and, be successful in their job.

433

:

And

434

:

mitch-solway_1_10-19-2023_100148: so

435

:

Mitch Solway: fastest way to find

and hire, employees that succeed.

436

:

changed it from the best employees.

437

:

We talked about the best employees.

438

:

We talked about our crazy technology

and the analytics and whatever,

439

:

and nobody cared about that.

440

:

once we found out that what they

really cared about was hiring

441

:

just employees that would succeed.

442

:

And then the other thing we learned,

particularly for our smaller customers,

443

:

it was often like the boss of the

company that didn't do the hiring,

444

:

they asked someone else, dunno if you

remember our radio ad that we did about,

445

:

Justin Norris: do.

446

:

Mitch Solway: Hey Rob, you boss

comes in and uh, ads are great 'cause

447

:

you get to tell like a real story

that your customers tell you about.

448

:

goes, okay, team is booming.

449

:

So we got lots of stuff to do and you

know, Barb, you're gonna do this and

450

:

Steve you're gonna do this, and Bob,

you've got the most important job at all.

451

:

And,

452

:

Justin Norris: Don't say hiring.

453

:

Don't say hiring.

454

:

Don't say hiring.

455

:

Mitch Solway: Don't say

hiring please anything.

456

:

But hiring goes hiring.

457

:

You know, we need to go find and

hire the right people for the job.

458

:

And he is like, oh man,

like what am I gonna do?

459

:

Right?

460

:

And then we just went on to basically say,

we know, like we know that's how you feel.

461

:

And so many times, even if you are the

boss, you still like feel like, oh my god.

462

:

I have to hire again, and it's

like all I do is fail at hiring.

463

:

And we knew they didn't know how

to write job descriptions, so we

464

:

said, Hey, need a job description?

465

:

No problem.

466

:

Just, you know, one click,

you'll have one done.

467

:

You know, need to post it to job boards.

468

:

We knew that was the next fear.

469

:

It's like, no problem.

470

:

We'll instantly send 'em to all the job

boards and then you know, need to know

471

:

who to interview, like instantly tell you.

472

:

who's most likely to succeed.

473

:

And all the crazy analytics and

scientific things that we did that were

474

:

really amazing, most of our customers

didn't actually care about that.

475

:

They just cared about pain around,

one was hiring to be hard right?

476

:

you know, we were, competing a little

bit with ZipRecruiter at the time.

477

:

And I remember reading that, oh my God,

ZipRecruiter just raised $80 million and

478

:

they were competing with us on the radio.

479

:

And the next thing you know,

they're outspending us like 10

480

:

or 20 to one on the radio.

481

:

forced us.

482

:

To rethink about our messaging because

if we're talking about, you know, posting

483

:

your jobs to job boards and getting all

these applicants and making that really

484

:

easy, it just wasn't as relevant anymore.

485

:

'cause ZipRecruiter sounded like they were

really pumping about how many applicants

486

:

you could find really, really quickly.

487

:

what we did that is it forced us

and me to really lean into like,

488

:

oh my God, what am I gonna do?

489

:

These guys are like gonna crush us, is

we went back and we refined the message.

490

:

To even them further distinguish what

made us different and we sort of used

491

:

ZipRecruiter messaging against them.

492

:

It started to say, you know, when

it comes to hiring, the last thing

493

:

you want is to have this huge

stack of resumes to sort through.

494

:

'cause we also knew that was true as well.

495

:

It was like, would say, oh my God,

I post jobs and people email me

496

:

a gazillion resumes and hated

working through the stack.

497

:

But our original messaging didn't

deal with that problem 'cause

498

:

hated all the things before that.

499

:

we said, you know, the last

thing you want is a huge stack

500

:

of resumes to sort through.

501

:

That's why Clear FITT is the

only service that will instantly

502

:

identify who's most likely succeed.

503

:

So you know exactly who to follow up with.

504

:

And while we didn't change the messaging,

we just changed the of the value.

505

:

And we reframed it against,

Hey, if you're thinking about

506

:

using ZipRecruiter, think twice.

507

:

'cause ZipRecruiter is gonna fill

your inbox with a gazillion resumes.

508

:

And then what are you gonna do?

509

:

Right?

510

:

Then you're gonna be, oh my God,

like, do I really want this?

511

:

No, well, we're gonna actually tell

you, you know, who's gonna succeed and,

512

:

and, that you should follow up with.

513

:

And that was just another good example

of, know, going from freaking out to

514

:

You know, if you think about how my mind

works, it's like how can I still sharpen

515

:

my pencil and create compelling message,

and how do I know my customers so well

516

:

I'm gonna be hyper relevant for them?

517

:

Justin Norris: And turning their strength,

ostensible strength into a weakness

518

:

so let's say you were starting

with a blank page, you know, new.

519

:

Company approaches you, they're a startup.

520

:

Maybe they don't even have

their messaging framework yet.

521

:

They're just getting into the market

What's the process that you go through?

522

:

How do you think about that?

523

:

Mitch Solway: and, and

I have a really clear

524

:

Justin Norris: I.

525

:

Mitch Solway: that I go through it first

starts with, internal interviews with

526

:

the key stakeholders in the business.

527

:

the first thing I need to understand

is, you, what do you think the key

528

:

challenges of the business are?

529

:

I'm just looking for the degree

of consistency or inconsistency

530

:

across like leadership team, or

there's no leadership team who are

531

:

the key, key people in the company.

532

:

And are they all articulating the similar

challenges or different challenges or

533

:

they, when I ask them, you know, what

do you think our businesses really

534

:

in and who should we be talking to?

535

:

there's consistency or if inconsistency.

536

:

will gimme a bit of a measure in

terms of much work there is to do.

537

:

cause the first order of business

is going through the positioning

538

:

exercise with the whole leadership

team or any of the key stakeholders.

539

:

It's 90% of the value is

about internal alignment.

540

:

say, listen, if we can't agree, we

don't even understand who we are and

541

:

how to talk about our business and

why people should buy us, how are

542

:

we gonna expect customer to know?

543

:

Right?

544

:

So the first order of business

is get your own house in order,

545

:

And I use April Dunford framework

in her obviously awesome book.

546

:

I used to do positioning on my own.

547

:

I didn't engage other people in

it 'cause I knew how to get there.

548

:

her framework is so good for me to

use to just involve everybody in

549

:

the process because you get everyone

in a room and we agree on certain

550

:

things like, they're competing with

other software, but you're usually

551

:

competing with the status quo, right?

552

:

number one job.

553

:

Even at FreshBooks, it was always

about people using Word in Excel and 10

554

:

years later, once there's a gazillion

online invoicing softwares out there.

555

:

know, 90% of our customers

came from Word and Excel.

556

:

aligning to, you what are

people gonna use today if they

557

:

mitch-solway_1_10-19-2023_100148: weren't

558

:

Mitch Solway: using anything?

559

:

Who's our, target audience and who

What really makes us different?

560

:

Go through this process everybody

gets aligned and what you've done

561

:

is you created these guardrails.

562

:

'cause at an early stage company,

there's so many things you could

563

:

do or you could be, and this is

really all about decision making.

564

:

And when you do it together as

a group, gets to participate and

565

:

everyone's part of the process.

566

:

So when you get to the end,

everybody feels part of the process.

567

:

And when you produce the result

of, here's what we agreed to.

568

:

Here's who our ideal customer is

and here's our unique points of

569

:

difference, and here's value it creates.

570

:

And it's not a messaging strategy or

anything, but everyone now has common

571

:

and shared understanding of the key

things that we actually need to align on.

572

:

that's my first order of business.

573

:

Before I do the positioning, I do

the internal interviews and then I

574

:

ask them, do you have any customers

today that represent the kinds of

575

:

customers you want to get more of?

576

:

I want to talk to them.

577

:

And as I told you, I

wanna know their story.

578

:

And I'll go and I'll do

that work myself and.

579

:

That just requires, really good questions.

580

:

A real curiosity.

581

:

I've done enough of these that I know

how to direct those conversations where

582

:

I get the stories and just my own Maybe

you can use AI to compile those things

583

:

and deliver the key insights, but I

just use my own listening skills and

584

:

listening for cues and similarities.

585

:

I used to say after you talk to maybe five

people, you're hearing similar themes.

586

:

I'll make sure that I'm bring

and share that information.

587

:

I'll write a summary of those

interviews to the rest of the group

588

:

so we have a shared understanding of

what Our target market characteristics

589

:

are, and what the real value is.

590

:

So I need to bring those to the table.

591

:

then once we've done the positioning,

it's a matter of like, oh, how do we

592

:

translate that into, a messaging strategy?

593

:

And messaging, though

so much more than just.

594

:

You know, translating your positioning

into something you have to build

595

:

in your brand and your tone.

596

:

worked at a company, as a fractional C

m O called Arbor, and they were doing

597

:

something new and different, and they're

a company that would contribute up to

598

:

$250,000 towards your down payment.

599

:

They were solving a problem of,

look, there's young professionals.

600

:

they're making enough money

that they can afford a mortgage.

601

:

just don't have know, if I'm gonna buy.

602

:

million dollar house, if you're lucky

now, you say a $2 million house,

603

:

I need $400,000 of down payment.

604

:

who has $400,000 saved up, in even

like early thirties, like has that.

605

:

I was out there in the market.

606

:

I think I posted on Facebook, Hey,

does anyone in my network know anyone

607

:

that's thinking about buying a home?

608

:

But they're struggling with some

things in particular, the down payment.

609

:

I'd love to talk with them.

610

:

I would just go and we'd have a coffee

They tell me about the challenges

611

:

and they tell me, yeah, d a damn

payment is the real blocker for me.

612

:

So identify that it's a real problem

for them, that that's the only

613

:

thing really getting in their way.

614

:

And of course, prices in Toronto gone

crazy, so that's a whole other thing.

615

:

But at this time, were high, but

they could still afford the mortgage.

616

:

They just couldn't do the damn payment.

617

:

And soon as I introduced the

concept, The number one reaction

618

:

was, okay, you're gonna gimme 250,000

bucks towards my damn payment.

619

:

What's the catch?

620

:

are you gonna screw me?

621

:

'cause this is what people expect, right?

622

:

It's too good to be true or

anything about lending money is

623

:

never in favor of the buyer, right?

624

:

The good news is that the company

itself, the founders and everyone there,

625

:

like they authentically were building

something that was for the customer.

626

:

wanted to find a new way that

wouldn't have people go into debt

627

:

and that would, them access to

capital that they would never have.

628

:

had a, a really good message.

629

:

I usually start for my messaging

than getting creative, If I don't

630

:

know what to do, I just go literally.

631

:

And, and started, there was a

tagline I came up with is, don't

632

:

let down payments get you down.

633

:

' cause we knew that just like, oh, I wanna

buy a home, but the damn damn payment

634

:

and just came up with subline is like

we can contribute up to $250,000 towards

635

:

down payment and then added, you know,

no monthly payments and no interest.

636

:

Which sounded a little salesy, but

was provocative enough that people

637

:

would go, oh my God, that sounds

great, but like, there's no way.

638

:

It's true.

639

:

So the whole tone our

messaging though, to be.

640

:

Warm and friendly.

641

:

and we even had a in our top

nav, like, what's the catch?

642

:

Right?

643

:

we just took it on and we

said like, there is no catch.

644

:

Like this is how it works.

645

:

And we had to explain it to people,

but we crafted the message, we had

646

:

to be very mindful of understanding

again, that our customers reaction

647

:

would be, it's too good to be true.

648

:

are you gonna screw me in this?

649

:

the good news is we were authentically,

genuinely caring people that were

650

:

actually doing this to favor the buyer.

651

:

there was a way that buyers,

homeowners can win the lenders can win.

652

:

Like there there's something

in this for everybody.

653

:

And so, Part of the messaging needed

to have a tone created some inviting

654

:

and the, the visuals and the brand

and look and the feel and, I told them

655

:

than anything, once we get people on

the platform and, and homes with us,

656

:

we need them to tell their story.

657

:

' cause again, it's a kind of thing where.

658

:

I'll believe it when I hear

it from someone in my network.

659

:

Or I hear real Homeowners tell

me working with this company

660

:

was like right from day one.

661

:

were so nice and they were so kind

and they were so helpful and they

662

:

used all the words like were had

to deliver an experience was not

663

:

what they were expecting, but what

we knew would win us business.

664

:

The first thing was they really cared

and they helped us through everything.

665

:

And there was no pressure.

666

:

were so helpful found the house we

wanted were so fast to do, it felt

667

:

like we were serving them rather

than them being beholden to us.

668

:

And so that, I don't know how

to describe that in a messaging

669

:

strategy, but there's a level of tone.

670

:

That needs to get baked into

what you do matches where your

671

:

customer needs to meet you.

672

:

that's a real important

part of the strategy.

673

:

So you're looking for those cues when

you're doing the customer interviews

674

:

Justin Norris: the thing that stands out

for me, and you mentioned using AI to

675

:

process some of these transcripts or,

conversations, and maybe there could

676

:

be some efficiency gain from doing

that, but it really seems to me that

677

:

mechanical, what you're getting from

these conversations in this research.

678

:

It's A deep emotional and psychological

understanding of these people that then

679

:

doesn't just translate into a message.

680

:

But like you said, it translates

into the tone, the brand, the

681

:

experience that you're delivering

on so many different facets.

682

:

And it just seems like that is a

deeply human, many cases, maybe

683

:

happening underneath the level

of your conscious awareness.

684

:

Like how those connections

are being formed.

685

:

It seems you would miss so much if

you did not have the direct human

686

:

contact to learn those things.

687

:

Mitch Solway: and, and one thing I've

learned is, I really love the process

688

:

of discovering that consumer insight

and I mostly love it 'cause I know

689

:

that it's gold, but I also know that

not everybody knows how to get there.

690

:

So you hear a lot of people talk about,

talk to your customers consumer insights,

691

:

You know, you need a special type of

brain knows how to ask the questions,

692

:

that knows how to listen for the cues.

693

:

Then can turn those cues from listening

into, oh my God, I found the gold here.

694

:

Just like, we had this

customer month, right?

695

:

Where once a month we'd invite

a customer That was something

696

:

you were responsible for.

697

:

Let's find one of our customers, them on

a big screen in front of the whole company

698

:

and have them everybody their story.

699

:

I remember looking at everybody,

everyone's eyes like, once we understood.

700

:

What they were really facing with every

day, like how busy these people were

701

:

and how important app was in terms of

just helping them get their job done.

702

:

people go, oh my God, that was amazing.

703

:

Like inside the company, if you

asked any one of those people

704

:

to go and talk to a customer,

would never get level of insight.

705

:

' not engineered.

706

:

I mean, that's not their superpower

of knowing how to get them there.

707

:

I would encourage anyone to try as much

as you can, bring that into the company,

708

:

you will significantly transform everybody

in the company thinks about their job

709

:

and like, what am I really doing here?

710

:

value does this really bring?

711

:

One is this amazing to hear customers

say how much they value your product.

712

:

it pumps everyone up like,

oh my God, this is amazing.

713

:

They're saying like, this is like, I don't

know what I would do with a clear fit.

714

:

But then to realize my God, these are

really busy people and what, what role

715

:

you play for them is it just gives

you context that, everyone's missing.

716

:

And

717

:

Justin Norris: Yep, totally agree.

718

:

And I remember those customer

discussions were really

719

:

emotional experiences sometimes.

720

:

'cause you would've small business owners.

721

:

Remember one guy was like, I don't

know whether next week, like, I'm

722

:

gonna be bankrupt or I'm gonna

be, you know, on top of the world.

723

:

Like my cash flows here.

724

:

There like . You know, you just

really get to the heart of that.

725

:

And I wanna ask one final question

actually, kind of coming back

726

:

to us working together actually

a a way that you, I think really

727

:

factored into my personal growth.

728

:

But I remember a conversation we

had at one point, and this was

729

:

at a phase in my career where.

730

:

You know, it I was really

learning about automation, all the

731

:

things it could do, technology.

732

:

It was a lot of fun for me, and and I

was finding it all very interesting.

733

:

And I, would use that word a lot.

734

:

And at one of our meetings

you said, Justin.

735

:

I want you to think less about what's

interesting and more about impact.

736

:

And

737

:

kind of stung a little

actually when you, said that.

738

:

and it stuck with me for a while

because it made me . Kind of question,

739

:

like how am I wired in this way?

740

:

And I've kind of had to rewire myself in

a lot of cases to be like, my interest

741

:

in these things can't be academic.

742

:

It can't just be like, this is cool.

743

:

It has to be focused on what

does the business actually need.

744

:

And I think that is orientation

that operations needs to have.

745

:

the point of that story is to get to

the question of how do you develop

746

:

this impact, focus in yourself?

747

:

Is this just inherent?

748

:

Is it something you cultivate?

749

:

Where does it come from?

750

:

Mitch Solway: Well, there's

a few things, and first

751

:

Justin Norris: I.

752

:

Mitch Solway: all, thanks.

753

:

You read a post the other day of someone

saying, you you give feedback, you know,

754

:

it's, it fits sting a little bit, right?

755

:

'cause I, think stinging feedback, if

it's coming from a good place, when

756

:

it stings, kind of know it's true.

757

:

Right?

758

:

So everything hurts at the first time.

759

:

It's like, oh, kudos to the

people that can take this

760

:

thing and then move on, right?

761

:

And then say, well, now what do I do?

762

:

So I'll say the first thing is I love the

intellectual curiosity that people have.

763

:

So it's not impact over academic

or intellectual curiosity.

764

:

It's when you have both

the magic really happens.

765

:

you need people that, like if you're in a,

creative space, like you just need people

766

:

to be creative or inventive, And they'll

never think about impact that's okay.

767

:

'cause not everyone has that orientation.

768

:

But when you're building a team in

a startup everything's about results

769

:

and me, teaching people impact is not

teaching people impact, but it's setting

770

:

an expectation right from the job

description and when I'm hiring people

771

:

that you need to care about impact.

772

:

time in your company where like, you

don't need to care about, I've got impact.

773

:

Like, I just need you to do this.

774

:

when you're small and you're growing,

everybody needs to care about impact.

775

:

So part of it is, When you set an

expectation you just like marketing.

776

:

It's like, Hey, do you care about impact?

777

:

You know, are you someone that cares

about, you know, like you wake up

778

:

every morning and you wanna know

how many new customers came in?

779

:

Like you describe someone like that is

you're describing someone that at the end

780

:

of the day they get their kicks 'cause

they see the impact of what they do.

781

:

Justin Norris: It's a different kind of

high than just the high of like discovery.

782

:

It's a high of really achieving something.

783

:

Mitch Solway: you could tell I get

excited about consumer insights

784

:

and figuring all this stuff out.

785

:

That whole process is so exciting for me.

786

:

Part Part of it is 'cause

intellectually, I'm just so curious.

787

:

I love understanding people and I just

find it fascinating, but I also know

788

:

it's exactly what I need to deliver.

789

:

The high standards, like I have a big

standard for myself I gotta create impact.

790

:

Like otherwise, I'm like, what am I doing

here if I'm not creating breakthroughs

791

:

and if I'm not solving big problems?

792

:

Then, you know, that's my superpowers.

793

:

Give me like the toughest

challenges you need to deal with.

794

:

Like, what are we doing?

795

:

Who's our customer?

796

:

How do we talk to them?

797

:

How do we grow this business?

798

:

it's all about impact

at the end of the day.

799

:

The payoff for me is when at as a

company, we're just growing and doing

800

:

great things and blowing through,

metrics and targets, is great.

801

:

I just, I find my way there through

Diving deep into the things that

802

:

I really care about that I know

can translate into massive growth.

803

:

You talk to another marketing leader

and they may have a different set of

804

:

superpowers that will lead to impact,

but this is just an area for me that I've

805

:

just found overwhelmingly lead to, faster

growth, stronger company alignment the

806

:

things that work and, longer brand health.

807

:

When you have a deeper

understanding of your customer.

808

:

Justin Norris: I know you gotta go.

809

:

We just wanna say, this was so much

fun, so cool, so fun to see you

810

:

think through this, and I just really

appreciate you being on the show.

811

:

Mitch Solway: my pleasure.

812

:

if anyone wants to find me, you know, just

search me up on LinkedIn just for sway and

813

:

I'm always happy to meet new people and,

and have these kinds of conversations.

814

:

Justin Norris: Yeah, we'll, we'll

get links to your LinkedIn and

815

:

your website in the show notes.

816

:

Mitch Solway: Thanks Justin.

817

:

Justin Norris: Mitch.

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